7:35pm: Harvey’s agent Scott Boras conducted a study regarding Tommy John recipients similar to Harvey, reports Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. Boras looked at pitchers who never exceeded 200 innings in a season, had Tommy John surgery, then returned with a roughly 200 inning workload.
Four pitchers fit into the statistical bucket – Shaun Marcum, Josh Johnson, Jarrod Parker, and Kris Medlen. Three of them required a second Tommy John surgery while the fourth, Marcum, is quite familiar with the disabled list. Boras offers Stephen Strasburg and Jordan Zimmermann as two examples who built their innings total more carefully. Obviously, both pitchers have yet to experience another elbow related injury.
To be fair, any statistician would warn against taking this case study at face value. It’s interesting that all four pitchers have experienced continual health problems, but full statistical and medical analysis would surely be needed before assessing how these findings apply to other players.
4:47pm: Yesterday, it was reported that there was friction between Matt Harvey’s agent Scott Boras and the Mets over the Mets’ plans for handling Harvey down the stretch. Boras wanted the Mets to keep Harvey, who had Tommy John surgery following the 2013 season, on a 180-inning limit. Harvey has already pitched 166 1/3 innings this year, so a 180-inning limit would severely limit the Mets’ use of Harvey in the rest of the regular season and in the playoffs. The Mets responded that they would pitch Harvey based on their own plan and would have him pitch a “reasonable” amount during the postseason.
Today the story took a surprising turn, as Harvey himself spoke up to back the 180-inning limit. Here are the details, via MLB.com’s Anthony DiComo (Twitter links) and the Record’s Matt Ehalt (Twitter links: 1 2 3 4). Harvey told reporters today that he would be limited to 180 innings. He refused to answer questions about the playoffs.
“I’m going to always play, but like I said, I hired Dr. [James] Andrews to do my surgery, and I hired Scott for a reason, and that’s to prolong my career and put me in the best possible position,” said Harvey, who added that the 180-inning limit came from Andrews (although Harvey was unsure whether that included the playoffs).
Via FOX Sports’ Ken Rosenthal (Twitter links), however, the Mets deny that Andrews backed a 180-inning limit. “He didn’t say 180 was the number,” says GM Sandy Alderson. “He was not categorical at all.” Rosenthal also tweets that Andrews does not prescribe strict innings limits for patients returning from Tommy John surgery.
Despite Boras’ previous comments, it’s surprising that Harvey would come out so strongly in favor of the innings limit. In early July, Harvey complained about the Mets’ six-man rotation, which would have limited his innings total this year. Some reporters, including Rosenthal (on Twitter), have suggested that Harvey might be hurting. That is, of course, speculation. But it could explain the timing of the 180-inning controversy, which might have been resolved, say, before the season, rather than in September. In any case, such a severe restriction on an impact pitcher like Harvey for the remainder of the season would have a significant effect on the Mets’ chances the rest of the way.
And Boston writers say that the Red Sox should trade Bogaerts for Harvey? They already have Buchholz. Why would they need another starter who needs to be “watched”?
I doubt he’s listening to Andrews as much as he is to Boras, the puppet master is simply pulling the strings of his puppet here, merely 24 hours after quick consultations.
I’d fight Boras/Harvey for every dime they seek via arbitration now, including after this season before he’s eligible. Already clear his/their minds are 4y from now.
Why does it matter who is “pulling strings?” If the recommendation is not to pitch above 180 from the best doctor in the business. That should be adhered to.
Except for the fact that the “best doctor in the business” did not say that.
“Rosenthal tweets:Three rival GMs say Dr. Andrews does not prescribe set limits post-Tommy John. “He always says to watch and go on a case by case,” one says.
Anyone who would believe what the snake Boros says at face value is probably on his payroll.
are you implying I’m on his payroll?
I think it’s disingenuous to vilify someone for looking out for their best interest.
As I said before, I’ll back whatever Andrews said. If he says it’s okay to play, then I back that. If he says 180 limit, then I back that. We agree that he’s the best doctor in the business… so we probably agree that we should listen to his advice over others.
Where does it say that Dr. Andrews stated that? All he said was that Andrews did the surgery and he will listen to Scott.
It’s says so right there in the article.
“said Harvey, who added that the 180-inning limit came from Andrews”
I don’t like the way this is playing out, but don’t blame Harvey for looking into his long-term health and the financial side of things. Anyone here who says they would act differently is kidding themselves. As fun as playing baseball is, first and foremost it’s a job for Harvey. If he was locked into a long-term deal like a lot of other young players have been, it would be different. But until he secures that payday, I can’t blame him despite how bad this looks.
And before anyone says “we don’t have the luxury of just taking days off from our jobs so he should take the mound if his manager tells him to” remember, the sports industry is a completely different world.
This is all because of a lack of communication from the beginning. All parties are at fault here.
Agree 100%, but Harvey would be smart to talk to the doctor personally and be sure exactly what he recommends and not believe everything Boros says. Boros has more than just Harvey’s interest in play here.
Agree 100%. I refuse to believe Harvey has so little competitive drive he’d come out and say something like that himself.
Either Boras is working him like a puppet or he’s really hurting. Those are the only 2 possible scenarios I can see any ballplayer coming out and saying stuff like that.
Fine then. Get shut down and do not pitch in the playoffs or WS (if they get that far) and no shares of either, just your base salary. I wish MLB could pay players based on goals etc rather than hoping they will continue to play well and actually earn the money!
Harvey is as good as gone when he has the chance to hit free agency. A few things irritate me about this whole situation. One, Boras is still upset from the Gomez non-deal. Two, Harvey tried to accelerate his comeback last year so he could pitch in non-meaningful games last September for the Mets. He has been outspoken with his dislike for a 6 man rotation. he has also scoffed and been irritated when taken out of the game a little early. We need to reap the benefits of Harvey now, win as much as we can, because he wont be resigning with the Mets. Boras claims he’s in it for his clients, he is in it for the money first ( I don’t blame him) and to stick it to the mets second, its public knowledge him and Sandy do not get a long and are not on good terms. Ill continue to focus on this winning season in hopes of something big, but I’m not holding my breath that Harvey wants to or does resign.
Good to know. Too bad its not his choice. If hes physically able to pitch, then he should shut his mouth and go pitch. Next time Giancarlo Stanton faces Mike Fiers, should he request to sit out because he might get hurt again?
I think its a far statement to expect Harvey to not be a Met once he hits FA, but hes now going against his GM. I think we could see this become bigger than it should.
Maybe Corey Seager for Harvey? The Dodgers can then use the money they were going to spend on Grienke/Price/Cueto, etc to resign Howie Kendrick or go for an Ian Desmond. They still end up with a star level middle infielder to pair with Jose Peraza and they get their ace to pair with Kershaw/Wood/Ryu/McCarthy/Urias
Matt, you did not hire Scott Boras to “prolong your career”, you hired him to get you paid as much as the market will allow during your career. Scott Boras does not hold a medical degree that I am aware of, and he is not one of your bosses with the Mets franchise. It’s not up to you, Matt. Or your agent. You signed a contract with the New York Mets. Their manager and GM… YOUR manager and GM… get to make that decision. Your feedback is probably welcome and encouraged, but that’s it. If their doctors think you are healthy enough to pitch more than 180 innings, then shut up and pitch.
You realize that “prolonging your career” and “get you paid as much as the market will allow during your career” are the same thing, right?
Also, the big issue is that the doctors DON’T think he is healthy enough to pitch more than 180 innings. So should the Mets shut up?
Well from the looks of it, the doc never told the Mets about said limit. Harv ey isn’t paid to decide when he is supposed to pitch. Thats the Mets and their medical staff’s job. If it really is a 180 IP limit, then Andrews should tell the Mets that. There is only 1 doc, but 2 different stories on what he said.
My stance on this story depends on what Dr. James Andrews said. If it’s 180, then I’m with Harvey. If not, then let him pitch.
it’s the job of Boros to get the most for Harvey that he can and if Harvey is injured, Boros can’t sell him so it is in the best interest for Harvey AND Boros to prolong Harvey’s career.
Harvey is looking more and more like a diva. I say the Mets should use and abuse the arm and win this year, and trade him for some controlled hitting in the offseason. They have enough high end pitching to lose Harvey, especially when Wheeler comes back. Syndergaard, Degrom, Matz, Wheeler, Neise isn’t nearly as frightening as when Harvey is penciled in, but it’s still better than most
Agreed. I’ve grown quite tired of the “Harvey Show”.
Come the offseason, let the bidding begin….
Well.. Some problems with that.
The rest of the league is seeing the nasty little story play out being one, not that it’s the 1st time the puppet master has used one of his puppet’s to do his bidding in this game..
2nd, is the guy a few weeks ago some Mets fans were saying “No way! We want more than him even up!”, being Xander Bogaerts, is 3rd in the AL in hitting, 2nd in hits, plays above average (at worst) defense and is probably one of the few guys with Boras as a rep that would sign an extension, without demanding 1st born children in return.. Saying several times this year he would LOVE to stay in Boston long term. Something virtually NO Boras represented player dare speaketh, under penalty of getting the mouth string permanently cut off.
First, Harvey is worth a lot more than Xander. Second, it’s not Boras pulling strings. It’s Boras doing what he’s paid to do, what he does better than anyone else in his field. And that is represent his clients. It’s in Harvey’s career’s best interest to listen to Dr. Andrews’ recommendation of 180 inning cap. This isn’t some shady trick with ulterior motives. It’s an agent concerned about the team going against the best doctor in his field, and not thinking about the repercussions it could have on the pitcher, long term.
Heres my question for you.
Where was Andrews and Boras when Harvey was trying to come back and pitch meaningless innings last season? His motive is the money he is trying to get. Not his health. If he was concerned so much with his health, he wouldn’t have tried to come back last year.
I’ll answer your question with another question: did he pitch?
He did not. The mets said no, and he begrudgingly obliged.
My point was instead of trying to figure out motives, let’s deal in reality and facts. The doctor(s) said to not pitch.
He did not pitch.
This may be a rumor site, but facts still reign supreme.
A better question is will he pitch…. The answer better be yes.
Regardless of the mets fans negatives, or other homer prone fans that like to pile up on some of the posts I make toward cult heroes (Not you here ECB, you have chatted with for years)…
Before this, I could have seen such a swap taking place, but not now and definitely not adding other players to the deal, or other legitimate prospects to sweeten it.
I can see the NYM moving Harvey 1st in order to fix it’s offensive problems. obvious reasons.. Not to mention they have LOTS of SP available and virtually no offense and no real SS, something Bogaerts would have immediately moved to and been the best at in both regards.. Leading hitter on the team and filled a hole at SS they have had since Reyes left.. 5y ago now.
More? I think not, especially when it looks like Boston can ink him LT this offseason if they choose.
Every player says they want to stay with the team they are currently playing for, it’s really not even noteworthy.
No he’s not. He’s one TJ away from his career ending. Xander is 4 years younger and probably off to a 5+ WAR season at SS at age 22 with a plus glove and bat.
the problem is that the Mets have their likely future SS in the system
the idea that Boras never manipulates his players for his own benefit is ***LAUGHABLE***.
Why is he worth “a lot more”? The best shortstop in the AL after Tulo, young, controllable, and plays every day, worth “a lot” less than a starting pitcher with an attitude problem?
So what happens if the Mets exceed the Boras line. Does Harvey phone it in and throw 60mph or just refuse to pitch? My bet is that he is hurting and hoping to exceed 180 so he can say I told you so an hold that against the Mets in Arb. Mets fans should riot if Harvey shuts himself down and cost them the playoffs or worse.
This is why Boras’ clients are still free agents in February. I’d just shut him down and send him home. Trade him in the off-season for what you can. Go with the pitchers who are prepared to give their all this season.
If Harvey thinks pitching will be a detriment to his future, he should definitely let it be known via Scott Boras or the press or anything else. The Mets won’t pay him anything if he blows out his elbow, and nor will any other team. He’s looking out for his best interest just as the team is looking out for theirs. What’s wrong with that? Why is he vilified for it? I would do the same. You owe it to yourself, your family, and your future much more than you do to the team.
I support him.
Now, all the above changes if the doctors had said he was okay to pitch above 180. But that is Dr. Andrews’ recommendation, so why go against him? Of course the team wants you to pitch for them so they can do better, but you have to look out for yourself first. Always!
He signed a contract to pitch for the New York Mets. The New York Mets want him to pitch for them through the playoffs. If he is physically able to pitch, he should be pitching.
It really is that simple. He doesn’t have the right to say no because he signed his contract.
Sure. That’s the contract. And if he blows out his elbow and ruins his career because the Mets forced him to pitch above the recommended innings limit set by Dr. James Andrews, you and I both know the union will sue the league for what Harvey would have earned in the open market had they not done so.
I’m guessing an even 200m.
And they would lose because Harvey tried to come back after last year against all recommendations anyways.
Harvey has a job to do, he has a contract to do it. Right now he is healthy, so he should be pitching. Their is very little proof to back Dr.Andrews limit anyways, so its all conjecture.
Wrong.
If the top doctor in the business testifies that he should not have pitched after 180, you really think the Mets have a chance? You must not know how lawsuits work.
Doctors don’t speak in absolutes like agents do. Boras is putting on this media circus like some kind of used car salesman.
If this innings cap existed for this long, why would it just now be brought up, instead of, say, July? Credibility matters, and this 4-pitcher study of his is simply cherry-picking. A sample size this small is worthless for his argument.
Simple. The reason the 180 innings limit is being brought up now is because he is approaching 180 innings. Also, we can’t be sure Harvey or Boras hasn’t spoken about this with the Mets before this.
Wrong, one can not guarantee future earnings for a MLB Pitcher,
Why not? You can look at comparables. How do you think someone hurt on the job handle their litigation in other fields? They look at similar cases. Baseball is easily adaptable to that model. In fact, the entire arbitration system is based on it!
You’re either wrong or misinformed. You pick.
No, I’m well informed and I can tell you with certainty that a baseball pitcher is not going to evaluated like a truck driver. Not everyone on the internet is stupid, you know. And not all of us are on someones payroll to push an agenda. If Harvey pitches, which it seems he will, and blows out his arm he will get ZERO from the Mets beyond their contract obligations. However, Boras, being the GREAT agent that he is, probably has an insurance policy on Harvey’s arm (actually I know from inside information that he does have his arm insured as a fact), and if he does have unrepairable damage done that he can collect from the insurance.
Also, for the record, him insisting to pitch last year will only strengthen his argument… not hurt it. It will show he is a team player.
So trying to shut himself down during the Mets first playoff run in 10 years is showing hes a team player?
That is not what I said, and you know it. I said him trying to come back last year – a point which you think will work against Harvey – will actually work in his benefit: because he was being a team player trying to come back early. It adds merit to his concern for long term injury if he goes over the limit this year.
To simplify: if someone says he is being selfish, he can point to last year, where he was being foolishly altruistic. There isn’t any malice here. Just a willingness to protect himself from harm.
If he feels okay, he needs to pitch. If he’s hurt or fatigued, he gets some rest. Is this the attitude of an ace pitcher? For goodness sake, his city can’t wait for “Harvey Day” every fifth start, and this is what they get in return?
Harvey is not a free agent. The Mets own him right now. If he’s hurt, the Mets won’t pitch him, because of effectiveness concerns, just like with any other pitcher! Boras and Harvey are being passive-aggressive, instead of honest about this alleged innings cap. Until you’ve earned the right to disagree with your GM, you do what he pays you well to do.
To be honest, I could care less about the “attitude” of an Ace pitcher. I care more about the results. Hard to argue with Harvey’s results, regardless of his attitude. He could be a combination of a diva and douche, but if he pitches like a top 5 pitcher in the league, I’ll gladly take him on my team.
How is saying Dr. Andrews recommended an innings limit, one which Harvey should adhere to… being passive aggressive? I’d say it’s assertive, bordering on aggressive.
A diva and douche combo makes him clubhouse poison. see Jonathan Papelbon. Bringing this issue up, publicly, while the Mets are red-hot, and post-season bound? The trajectory of his projected regular season innings would have dictated an early or mid-season skip of a few starts. Problem solved. Where was Boras then? That’s passive. Coming out and adamantly stating you only have about 2 starts left and then you’re shutting it down. That’s aggressive.
Just because you are finally reading about it, doesn’t mean this is the first time it’s been discussed with Alderson/Harvey/Boras/Andrews. You’re just hearing about it now because it’s becoming clear that the Mets don’t intend to do what has been recommended for Harvey.
Because of who recommended it…Boras doesn’t know how Harvey’s elbow feels, nor does Dr Andrews. Only Matt knows that, so HE has to be the one who says something in times of discomfort.
And what GM in their right mind would actually shut their ace down at an arbitrary number after what happened to the 2012 Nats? They are STILL sour-grapes from that decision! If the Mets were to fall short in the WS, the what-if factor would haunt the Mets if Alderson actually complied with the shutdown.
They can easily do an MRI and take an educated look at the elbow. And even then they would only have an educated guess about how it is doing. Pitching is a riskier athletic feat. And still players have been doing it for over a century and running inning totals over 300 innings a season without long term arm trouble, and other times with let down seasons. But there is no GUARANTEE about any players arm condition at any time and if Harvey can get on the mound and throw a ball with control and action at 98 MPH that is a pretty good indication that his arm is OK, as good as anything else you would see. He is JUST GOING TO HAVE TO RISK IT, and live up to his contract.
I like the way everyone just takes it for granted that Harvey will again see the light of day for a WS run again in his career. Ask Jose Reyes about what kind of guarantees there are. Pennant winning seasons are rare and special and should be enjoyed and not poisoned by all this garbage. Harvey as a WS ring in sight and is going to sit on the bench? Who needs this kind of player?
stl_cards16;
I think you need to read the NYC papers and their interviews with Alderson. The Mets have been cooperating fully with the doctors recommendations, and with Boras. The rug was just pulled out from under them. They have bent over backwards for the guy for 2 years, and now they’re being chastised and portrayed as uncaring.
They would be best sitting him down for the season and trading him after it – although there aren’t a lot of teams that will take Harvey on with his baggage.
This is probably my biggest issue. No team is giving Strasburg or Harvey a $200 million contract. I would think Harvey’s offers will top out around 5/120. Not that it’s not a huge contract and not that he’s not a great pitcher, but I just don’t think guys are giving injury prone starters that kind of money anymore. I wouldn’t be all that shocked if he wound up settling for around James Shields money (definitely at least slightly more AAV). Given the offer tomorrow of Felix Hernandez, David Price or Matt Harvey in free agency, contact values being equal, I take Hernandez or Price 10 times out of 10.
The Strasburg thing was newsworthy because everyone assumed the Nationals’ proposed innings limit for him would be tossed aside in the playoffs, and everyone freaked out when they said late in the year he would still be shut down. Strasburg was upset about the way that was handled. This Harvey story is even more of a story because not only is he saying he’d be OK with only making two more starts this year and sitting out the playoffs, he’s also hinting that’s what he wants.
They wouldn’t have to pay a NICKEL. That is what is ticking Boras off. Boras doesn’t cash in until he hits Free Agency and the number of free agents pitchers of class A value as age 30 that hit free agency is close to none. Of course, in the old days there were a lot of them.
The Mets don’t just pay him to pitch so that he can maximize if future earnings. The Mets pay him to Pitch in order to compete for a WS Pennent. If Harvey can pick up a ball and throw it 90+ MPH, then he can pitch and he MUST pitch, straight through to th end of the season. If he doesn’t want to, then he is not living up to his contract. There is NOTHING in the contract that says the Mets need to protect Harvey’s long term earning potential. Nor do the Mets exist as a vehicle for Harvey to milk money from. The METS HAVE NO MORAL OBLIGATION TO PROTECT HARVEY’S ABILITY TO PITCH UNTIL HE IS 30 AT ALL. THE DO HAVE A MORAL OBLIGATION TO TRY TO WIN A WS THIS YEAR, and ***SO DOES HARVEY***
[[He signed a contract to pitch for the New York Mets. The New York Mets want him to pitch for them through the playoffs. If he is physically able to pitch, he should be pitching.
It really is that simple. He doesn’t have the right to say no because he signed his contract]]
It is 100% that simple.
Yeah, I just don’t buy into a corporation (team) working their worker (player) to the bone. Just a difference of philosophy, I guess. At the end of the day, these guys are human and need to protect their livelihood and future lives.
IF the doctor said 180, it would be an easy case against the Mets. IF he didn’t, Harvey should pitch.
It is 100% that simple.
Agree with the majority of your points. I do however have a problem with the constant complaining of a 6 man rotation and the skipping of starts if it was known all along they were trying to “cap” him at 180 innings.
I don’t care about his long term career. I only care that the Mets win the WS. If he is under contract to pitch, I expect him to pitch to his ability. If he hurts his arm, we will put him on the DL. If he is so certain of his future value, let him get an insurance policy. I don’t care if he pitches until his arm falls off. BTW – we are not talking about his HEALTH. His health is covered under obamacare. He is worried that his selective reconstructive sports surgery works. Sure looks like it works since he throws 90+ MPH
“I don’t care about his long term career.”
That is EXACTLY the problem.
I don’t care about Matt Harvey, Scott Boras or the New York Mets. If there is some doubt as to whether or not Dr. Andrews said 180 pitches or meant it as a strict limit, so be it. I don’t care about the details of this situation.
But I do care that people can have an attitude that they don’t care about potentially ruining somebody’s career for their own benefit, and I do care that it’s possible that attitude could be sitting in a GM’s office right now. Regardless of Harvey, Boras has brought up a strong point and it needs to be addressed. He’s absolutely right to stand up for his client in this situation and it needs to be addressed formally in the next CBA.
No that is not a problem. The problem is that Harvey is refusing to live up to contract and to pitch while the Mets are in the hot pursuit of a World Championship. It is not the Mets responsibility to make sure that Harvey can make loads of money as a Free Agent in 3 years playing for the Yankees. It is the fiduciary responsibility of the Mets to serve their customer base, and fans and pursue a WS Ring. If Harvey had any ethics, he would shut up and pitch. If he can’t pitch, let him do like Sandy Koufax and retire. If Harvey is so certain of his future earnings, let him take out an insurance policy, like the teams do. Good luck on finding an insurance company to take that bet. While he is on this team, I expect him to do his best every time his manager puts him in to throw, or he is a traitor to the team, and has screwed the fans. The guy is screwing every Mets fan for his own selfish agenda, and I you take personal humbrage to that. As far as I’m concerned I can never see him in a Mets Uniform again and that is fine.
Tough on Scott Boras and Matt Harvey. Get out there and Pitch according to your contract.
He doesn’t have a contract.
The METS HAVE NO MORAL OBLIGATION TO PROTECT HARVEY’S ABILITY TO PITCH UNTIL HE IS 30 AT ALL. THE DO HAVE A MORAL OBLIGATION TO TRY TO WIN A WS THIS YEAR, and ***SO DOES HARVEY***
This is a great way to attract future talent to the organization.
There will be no problem getting talent. Playing for the NY Mets, a centerpiece franchise for MLB, is a blessing for any baseball player. When the Mets get sick of dealing with Scott Bozo he can peddle his players to Colorado. Nobody in the fanbase or the organization is the least bit worried about that.
Don’t think that you can threaten the Fans with a labor action over this issue or you will be facing billions in lost revenues. The Fans have had it with this garbage, not to mention steroid cheats, slow games, over paid ball players who hold out, and the skyrocketing costs for tickets. You strike over this and the fans will permanently tune out and move on the next wave of digital entertainment, never to see from you or hear from you again. Try addressing that at your next CBA meeting…
Images Joe Namath pulling out of the Super Bowl in 1969 because of his knees?
I understand your point to a degree ECB about protecting his elbow and health.
Also understand the Mets dearly need Harvey to reach the playoffs for the 1st time in a very long time and it doesn’t help that Boras has a habit of interfering in medical decisions with his own team of Dr’s and we have no idea if he has consulted with on (either way) regarding this situation, or if he is still just playing the money factor.
The Mets and their fans are looking at the playoffs, Boras is looking out for himself, which he always does.
I disagree. Boras is looking out for his client, as he always does… as he is supposed to do, as he is paid to do. Boras doesn’t NEED another 20m from Harvey’s next contract. He can get it from the next pitcher or the next hitter. Harvey, on the other hand, is risking his life earnings by going out there and pitching if Dr. Andrews said not to.
[[If Harvey thinks pitching will be a detriment to his future, he should definitely let it be known via Scott Boras or the press or anything else. ]]
Maybe he should start shagging balls in the outfield. It worked for Babe Ruth
This comment, like the majority of your comments, make no sense. Also, irrelevant.
@East Coast Bias: Thus speakth someone who says that Boras doesn’t NEED another 20m from Harveys next contract.
The team holds the rights to put him out there. Look at what the Brewers and Yankees did to CC Sabathia year in and year out (which eventually likely led to his demise). If the team says pitch and you are healthy, you need to pitch. From a legal standpoint, the MLBPA, Boras & Harvey would have no case against the Mets I would think unless the Mets started throwing him out there for 140 pitch evenings or doing something excessive that is outside of the job description.
That being said, I’m fine with an inning limit. What I’m not ok with, is a player on a World Series contender (NL favorite I’d say if not for the Cards) saying that he agrees with the limit. Even if you do, you tell your teammates, coaches and fans that you don’t. I’ve never seen or heard of a player try to limit themselves publicly.
Scott Boras and Matt Strasburg….err Harvey are making things less than pleasant at a time when the Mets and their fans should be having a blast.
I don’t even know why Innings PItched are used to judge how much work a pitcher has done. Innings Pitched are Very Misleading
Pitcher A averages exactly 100 IP per start, exactly 7 IP per start, and starts 30 games. Pitcher A throws 210 innings throwing 3000 pitches
Pitcher B averages exactly 100 IP per start, exactly 6 IP per start, and starts 30 games. Pitcher B throws 180 innings throwing 3000 pitches
Pitcher A threw 30 more innings, but they threw the exact same number of pitches, so one did not work more than the other.
Know how everyone says W-L pretty much depends on how your offense does in each game? Well Innings Pitched depends on how your manager does in each game
Most pitches thrown in baseball this year
1 – Jeff Samradzjia
2 – Corey Kluber
3- James Shields
4 – David Price
5 – Chris Archer
6 – RA Dickey
Here’s where those 6 guys rank in IP this year
Samardzija – 5th
Kluber – 1st
Shields – 16th
Price – 4th
Archer – 12th
Dickey – 11th
Ok but those aren’t crazy variances, the top 6 in pitches thrown falls in the top 16 in innings pitched? That’s no big deal.
What I’m curious about is how many pitches are thrown in warm ups and in bullpen sessions, and even to first base on pickoff throws. That’s a blind spot in the pitch count stat.
Cespedes to Tigers in the offseason.
I was worried that would not happen. But now that Harvey has raised the white flag, Mets will have a short postseason, and Yo will almost certainly leave the Mets because of his weird contract that forces the Mets to release him.
Great that the Tigers got Fulmer and others for Cespedes, and they will now likely have a great change to get Cespedes too!
Cespedes will end up the worst FA contract signed this winter.
There is always Chris Davis and Ian Desmond, who’ll both get 80M+
Davis with 40+ HR this year will probably get something like 6/110 for his age 30-35 seasons.
Jason Heyward will be the worst just because of his age. He is not worth $200 million dollars.
$200/10 years for age 27-36 seasons is going to be just right for a guy with such a high ceiling like Hayward. In 5 years $20M a year won’t even be a top 10 yeary salary and by the end he’ll probably be closer to a bargain than a flop.
Let’s just trade Harvey for the best possible package while or when his value is at its peak.Boras is always gonna be a problem and Harvey although awesome is a cocky ahole who will eventually be a problem. Together they will make the perfect storm that ruins the future of a smart dynasty . deGrom is just as awesome and Matz and Thor have the chance to be just as good .We can get a few awesome prospects for Harvey replenishing the farm and adding an offensive prospect who is close to major league ready. Best part about it all. We rid ourselves of a headache and a future migraine in Harvey
The Mets aren’t having any kind of dynasty. If there was ever a one and done team, this is it.
This is like in Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers with Boras taking on the role of Grima Wormtongue poisoning Harvey aka King Theoden.
Player says what his agent tells him to. Unprecedented.
I think what some people have the problem with is not that he backs the limit, but more the tone of the statement. Doesn’t discuss wether he’d pitch in the playoffs, doesn’t talk specifically how he and Dr. Andrews came to the conclusion, and just overall doesn’t seem like he is fighting the limit aka ‘Not being competitive’.
A ton of MLB aces have the mentality of not wanting to miss a start, let alone any type of inning limit. And given he’s such a vital part of the team down the stretch, and there is no guarantee the Mets get to this position next year, to be that passive and ok with the limit may cause Mets fans to wonder where is drive is at.
To be honest though, I don’t think he would come out for it unless something major was up. Harvey know’s all this, and I don’t think he’d just be ok with shutting down on a whim. I don’t think we should truly judge this till all the facts are out, and all sides have given their opinion and evidence.
Doesn’t discuss hoe he and Dr. Andrews came to the conclusion? Well I can tell you how Harvey came to the conclusion, #1 MCL surgeon in the world recommended it, I don’t know why you’d think he would need to explain any better than that.
.. Wasn’t my point. My point is that the tone he set made certain Mets fans mad, which it obviously did. I’m not a Mets fan, but I do know very level-headed ones who were surprised the way he went about this. There wasn’t much planning done by either side.
You gotta look at it from their perspective. Mets haven’t been contending for a most of the last decade, and now they are in the thick of things, and arguably their best pitcher says he wants an innings cap. No explanation on wether it’s with the postseason included, no word from Dr. Andrews either. Plus I think some explaining is needed, because from Andrews’ point of view, he doesn’t care if Harvey pitchers for the Mets in the postseason, he only is focusing on Harvey’s arm. So he might be playing it safer than he needs to, that said, I’m not in the room with Harvey, Boras, Andrews or any of the Mets Front Office.
I guess you didn’t read where I said people shouldn’t judge the situation until both sides have explained why they went about it the way they did. Also I think both Harvey and the Mets Front Office owe the fans an explanation, especially if they don’t make the postseason.
What some people have a problem with is that it was Scott Boras who said something. There are a lot of people with an irrational hatred of him for doing his job well. Look through the comments and that becomes clear quickly enough.
There is nothing irrational about hated Scott Boras or his stuges on this forum…
I’d love an explanation, or at the very least, your definition of the word “irrational”
Oh – you’ve missed the wrath that fans have had for Boras and you need me to dig it out of the press for you? Are you really on the West Coast and the news gets to you slower than here in NY?
If I were a player, I would want scott boros as my agent. the man has proven he can deliver for his client. that’s his job. it’s not to do what’s best for the mets or any other team.
If your a player you may very well want Boras. After the Harvey experience though, I wouldn’t.
of course 180 innings for one pitcher can be totally different than 180 innings for another pitcher, due to # of pitchers thrown, high-stress pitches, etc, etc, etc, so the idea of stopping at an arbitrary number just seems completely ridiiculous to me,
and for a healthy pitcher to stop pitching when his team is playoff-bound because of said arbitrary limit is even sillier; of course Harvey might not be fully healthy;
sure would be ironic if Strasburg and the Nats would get a chance to make the playoffs again due to another mis-handled situation of a star pitcher coming off tommy john
This Young Man ( Harvey) needs to Protect himself from a Mets Front Office that’s more concerned about making Money off of Mets Playoff Bid that this Young Star Career. And he has every right too , it’s his Long term Career that in Question.
That is pure nonsense. You ought to look into the situation.
Why would you capitalize so many words that don’t need it like that?
So…take the coin and flip it to the other side. Who wants to be the doctor that says, “Yeah, sure go throw 200 innings, you’re all good!” followed by Harvey feeling a pop on inning #199?
There’s a reason the side effects for common cold medicine include possible death. It’s a CYA game on all angles.
I don’t think some of you understand…The issue isn’t whether he should pitch or not pitch, the issue is why a month before the post season this ‘revelation’ comes to light. If the Mets knew this 2 months ago they could’ve planned for it…but there was Harvey, whining about a 6 man rotation and how he wants to pitch more long before this news. If Andrews had made this suggestion, why wouldn’t he have said so 166 innings ago? So who’s really to blame here?
Simple answer is Boras. He’s definitely not afraid of a mic-drop moment.
He’s not exactly my favorite person in the world, but he was just the messenger.
Perhaps they did “prepare” for it in rushing Matz and not trading Neise?
I wonder how much longer owners are going to put up with Boras hanging them out to dry in the press and creating the impression that he’s in charge? Boras is employed by players. Players are employed by owners. Scott may have peaked in his little blackmail game.
I wrote last night that more teams will be staying away from Boras clients. The are a number of teams that will not deal with him now.
If this is all Boras and no Andrews, it will be very interesting to see how it plays out. Can the Mets suspend him and not pay him if he shuts himself down? How will the player’s union react?
If Harvey has a clear medical limit the Mets will cave in IMO, but if this is Boras only, get out the popcorn, it should be entertaining.
Since when did being an Agent mean that you can tell a team when to play a player and when not to? Its crap like this with Boras that makes me absolutely detest the man.
IMO the real issue is mechanics and innings is a convenient distraction because it’s easier to point to a high IP total and say “this is the problem.”
Throwing 200+ IP year after year was the norm years ago…don’t know how guys like Felix Hernandez or David Price (and until this year, Verlander) can be dismissed as “freaks of nature” when it was expected for SP to throw 200+ innings year after year with little to no ill effect.
That being said, innings limits are probably a good thing for guys like Harvey/Strasburg/Zimmermann…high innings counts just exacerbate the underlying problem and aren’t the underlying problem in and of itself IMO.
There are a number of ex-players that work as analysts on local broadcasts.Tonight I’m aware of 5 of them – including retired pitchers – that spoke out about what Harvey / Boras did to their employer and their teammates.
Difficult situation for the Mets regarding Matt Harvey. They do have 5 other solid starters. Mets should move Harvey to the bullpen in a limited role the rest of the regular season. Then use him as the 4th starter/ swing man in the postseason.
In some cases I’d agree, but the Mets have a unique opportunity here. Their competition is down and they are playing through the roof great baseball right now. This could be Harvey’s only chance at a World Series (given that no one on the roster was a part of the 2000 World Series). This is your chance to win.
I get it. He wants to get paid and not end his career early because he overdid it, but right now, he has a responsibility to himself and his team to get out there every 5th day (even if they don’t allow him to go more then 5 or 6 innings) and keep his mouth shut. I’d be surprised if Wright doesn’t pull him off to the side and we don’t see a reversal or explanation.
Steve – looks like that has all but happened from current reports:
http://www.theplayerstribune.com/matt-harvey-mets-playoffs/
One needs to wonder how many people Scott Boras pays to troll these forum and post. There are more than a few on his payroll trying to spin things in his clients (Matt Harveys) favor.
Ok seriously, what would be the point? That makes zero sense.
Really, then explain while EVERYWHERE in the media and the internet there is outrage and exasperation at Matt Harvey right now that is SO FIERCE that Harvey is now spinning a 180 turn on this issue….
except here….
Posting exactly what I posted on Facebook earlier this morning…
The difference between Matt Harvey & Stephen Strasburg (excuse the very rough quotes):
Strasburg in year following Tommy John: “They are going to have to rip the ball out of my hand for me to skip a start.”
Harvey in year following Tommy John: “Well Dr. Andrews said 180 innings… I’m not sure if that means the postseason.”
If you’re hurt sit down, otherwise you got a World Series to win. This is a once in a lifetime situation the Mets are in (well third time in my life). What is this inning limit garbage? Inning limits only apply if you are not in a postseason race.
Where is your competitive drive Harvey? That attitude doesn’t lead to championships. Ryan McDonagh played in the Stanley Cup on a broken leg.
lol “once in lifetime”….no, just, no.
I’m not talking about playoffs. I’m just here to talk about Qualcomm.
If he don’t want to pitch because he is worried about being hurt, then suspend him without pay. Simple solution. EVERYONE can have a career-ending injury at any time. There is nothing wrong with him other than worry, so just suspend as of right now for the rest of the season. He can wrap his elbow in bubble wrap until Spring Training and all will be well. If perfectly reasonable for Harvey to worry about his future earnings, but it is just as reasonable for the Mets to worry about their current spending. I realize most people here want to side with the player in all cases, but I have to side with management on this one.
Why would you write all those words knowing full well that the MLBPA is pretty much the strongest union on earth? There’s not a snowballs chance of them letting that happen.
The union can do what it wants but not a court on earth would uphold a suspension if the Mets decided to do so when Harvey could pitch,
Harvey is looking more like Harvey Dent than Bruce Wayne how long until we start seeing all the batman masks replaced with two face masks?
If the Mets want to be vindictive over this they should trade him to Colorado in the off-season for a package involving CarGo…..
And then he will lead the Rockies to a title in spite of them, don’t you know how baseball works?
Works for me.
Harvey has an arm that could see him make $300M in his career. If he blows out his arm again, he becomes Jarrod Parker, or even worse, JR Richard (he was homeless for a long time because his payday never came). Plenty of pitchers have made their kids and their kids kids rich without a title, this is what’s about what’s good for him not the team and a whole ton of “hating the player not the game” – its the game that’s been overpaying these guys for a couple decades now, so why wouldn’t he?
Also, if Harvey was on the Tigers and did this no one would care at all. But the disgusting, horrifying, bottom of the barrel “Noo Yawk” media just lives off non-stories like this all day. There’s a lot of other places to point your finger at why this is a supposed “outrage” when it’s honestly nothing. Strasburg did it, Harvey’s going to do what he did.
more likely that Harvey will sputter out and age 28 and make nothing after the age of 31… like most pitchers.
woah
JR Richard had a stroke. That is hardly a comparable situation. If he blows out his arm again, then that’s just his tough luck. He is not up to being a major league pitcher, next man up. Why should the Mets handle this guy with kid gloves if his body can’t handle the stress of the job? It would be a sad situation for Harvey for sure, but not for guy that takes his place on the big league roster. The guy whose elbow is up to the job who deserves to have his kid’s kids taken care of because he can handle the job. Either Harvey can do the job or he needs to go home and crochet or some other safe task and let the next guy do it.
Correlation does not equal causation – especially in such a tiny sample size.
Scott Boras has a financial interest in this Pennant Race for Washington. And that is why he has reached into this race and attacked the Mets. Boras needs to be investigated and banned from Baseball.
Boros can’t be “banned” from baseball. He’s a private businessman! Players hire Boros to battle management. Teams may choose to deal with Boros or not. That’s their choice. As Don Henley said about the the agent for the Eagles, Irving Azoff: “he may be satan….but he’s our satan!”