TODAY: Ortiz announced via Twitter that he’ll call it quits after the coming year. “Life is based on different chapters,” said Ortiz, “and I think I am ready to experience the next one in my life.”
YESTERDAY: Red Sox slugger David Ortiz plans to retire at the end of the 2016 campaign, Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports reports on Twitter. That’s not exactly shocking news, as Peter Abraham of the Boston Globe notes on Twitter that Ortiz hinted at just that possibility over the course of the 2015 season.
Boston owes Ortiz $16MM for the coming season after he maxed out his vesting option escalators, but that’s a small price to pay for his recent levels of production. His deal includes another vesting/club option with a floating value for the 2017 season, but it appears that it won’t have any practical importance.
Ortiz turns 40 tomorrow, but has shown no signs of slowing at the plate. Despite his advanced age, he slashed an outstanding .273/.360/.553 last season and swatted 37 home runs in his 614 plate appearances. The Dominican native also became the most recent MLB player to enter the 500 home run club.
The coming season will be the twentieth in which Ortiz has seen action at the major league level. He spent six seasons with the Twins, putting up solid offensive numbers, but was released by the organization after a 2002 that was his best in Minnesota.
His career took off once he signed with the Red Sox. Ortiz began putting up huge numbers as soon as he came to Fenway, reeling off a five-year run over which he carried a .302/.402/.612 batting line and landed in the top 5 in AL MVP voting after every one of those seasons (though he never won the award).
It seemed like Ortiz was beginning his decline phase thereafter, as his average, OBP, and slugging percentage all dropped to the lowest levels of his Red Sox career in 2009. That proved, instead, to be little more than a blip, as his 149 OPS+ over the six seasons since amply attests.
There’s no question that Ortiz will go down as an important member of the Red Sox pantheon. He was, of course, a key member of the organization’s 2004, 2007, and 2013 championship clubs. If anything, he’s been even better in the post-season — especially the World Series, where he owns an unfathomable .455/.576/.795 batting line over 59 total plate appearances.
Really, the only debate at this point is whether Ortiz deserves a place in the Hall of Fame. If you focus only on his offensive numbers, that is rather an easy sell. But there are other considerations that complicate things. From an on-field perspective, Ortiz has almost exclusively been a DH, which obviously limits his overall value. And doubt remains about his involvement with performance-enhancing drugs, as he was reportedly among the players who tested positive for a later-banned substance back in 2003.
There’s plenty of time to debate Ortiz’s legacy and case for Cooperstown over the years to come. For now, we’ll look forward to one last season of admiring that swing, with its high, one-handed finish, and the towering drives that result.
Photo courtesy of USA Today Sports Images.
Wow, talk about going out on your own terms. Great career, Big Papi, and I hope you go out with a great year.
He’s had a hell of a career. It’ll be sad to see it end next year
Thank you Big Papi. I was 12 when the Sox first signed him. His final game will be a very sad day for Red Sox Nation.
And here your Alec Guiness Obi-Wan icon had me thinking you were older than me this whole time!
Looks can be deceiving!
I feel old.
If you really are Rafael Belliard, you are old…..
Touché
Wow, Belliard must have the worst career WAR and OPS+ of anyone with over 1000 games played. 1155 games with an OPS+ of 46 and a career WAR of 0.1. How does someone hang around for 17 years with a career WAR of 0.1?
Guys who play above-average 2B and SS can stick around a long, long time, especially in an era when advanced stats weren’t really utilized. FanGraphs has him with the 27th worst WAR since 1945 among guys with 2500+ PA, which is better than a couple recent guys like Yuniesky Betancourt and Delmon Young.
Belliard has only 2 career home runs over those 2500 PA. Only three guys since ’45 had fewer (1 each), including Duane Kuiper.
Not if it ends with a walkoff like Jeter.
I hate to see this. Big Papi has been one of my favorites since I was a little kid.
It’s about time.
Leave and don’t ever come back.
Must be a yankee fan
Are the absence of Roids catching up to him !
Ortiz had one of the best seasons ever for a 39 year old, so I’d say no.
I’d love to see a Cubs/Sox World Series to send Papi out w/ a bang. What a career! Red Sox won’t feel the same w/o the big guy.
Man it will never be the same.Big Papi has been an icon since 2004.
Even at 40, he’s the most recognizable face in baseball. That’s incredible. Good on him.
No, he’s not.
Most recognizable face that is also a cheater.. HAHA!
I’m a Yankee fan. Never liked him cause of his massive ego (though he’s surely not the only one to have it)
However, he has been one of the most clutch players in history and helped one of the most biggest franchises in Sports break a curse, and, if we put the PED accusations aside, is one of the greatest ballplayers of all time
With that being said though, I don’t put him in the HOF, and it’s not because be was a DH, but because the failed test is/was still a failed test.
And until we find out the Real results of that test (we sadly may never) and until the HOF allows players like Bonds, Palmeiro, McGwire, and even Jeff Bagwell in who never failed any test but is only left off because of suspicion (same for Piazza), I don’t think he deserves to be in
If I happen to attend his last game at YS, I just may give him a standing O
Great career
Hard feelings there MB. I also despised Reggie jackson for many of those same exact reasons, yet thought he was a HOF player for the same ones. True.. He played RF for a pretty decently long time, or attempted to. Much like I “guess” Boston could have sent the defensively challenged ortiz out to play 1b. Why? That’s my question. Jackson couldn’t play RF, not even very well while at Oakland. Sure he had to the very few 1st season’s while there was no DH, but after that? He wasn’t helping anyone in RF, other than he could throw. Puig can throw.
Just because a guy can stand at a position makes a difference? Your logic here is flawed.
Huh? I already said it’s NOT because he was a DH.
Edit – I see I wrote Be in my comment above yours. I meant He
And even if I did say he shouldn’t be in because he was a DH, that Isn’t flawed logic because Edgar is not in for that exact reason. That’s how the voters feel, not I
Even if you pay no attention to the (initially) mediocre (and then bad) defender Jackson was and the (complete) disaster Ortiz was/could have been defensively and only look at their offensive contributions… Ortiz doesn’t come close to matching Jackson.
Papi has a career OPS+ of 139. Reggie has a career OPS+ of 139. I see what you mean.
Let’s dig deeper.
Papi has a career OPS of .925. Reggie .846.
Papi postseason OPS .962, Reggie .885.
Counting stats (Reggie had 20 percent more PAs to accumulate numbers).
Papi 503 HR, Reggie 563 (in Reggie’s favour if you ignore the PAs).
Papi 1641 RBI, Reggis 1702 (see above and Papi will likely pass him before retiring).
Papi 51.4 O WAR (B-Ref), Reggie 76.6. This one is clearly in Reggie’s favour, even more than the PA difference.
Sorry, I fail to see how you could claim that Ortiz doesn’t come close to matching Jackson. I suspect that if Ortiz had been able to play half his games with the Yankee Stadium short porch, he would have had several MVPs and there would have been no question about HOF. Ortiz career OPS in Yankee Stadium is 100 points higher than his career average.
Nice investigation!
The reason for the MASSIVE differences in offensive RAR between those two guys (and fangraphs’ approach shows an even bigger gap) is the reason all of your other comparisons are really kind of moot. The offensive environment in the game from 1970-82 during Jackson’s peak was so much different than the environment during Ortiz’s peak – even when you don’t pretend there’s a massive difference between all the greenies everyone was taking back then and all the steroids Ortiz and others were taking.
Jackson was, depending on what flavor of measurement you like best, somewhere between 20% and 30% better in comparison to his peers than Ortiz has been to his.
Also, just a reminder for those of you who don’t need to take the same senior vitamins I do… only five of Jackson’s 21 seasons were spent in Yankee Stadium. The majority of his ABs during his peak came in the old days of the Oakland Mausoleum which was decidedly NOT favorable to LH power hitters.
Final note: Comparing postseason career numbers for guys who played before 1969 to guys who played between 1969 and 1994 to guys who have played post-94 is like comparing apples to oranges to watermelons.
“Ortiz doesn’t come close to matching Jackson.”
Just too funny! Written by the type of homer Yankee fan who sees nothing but glorified yankee stats and heroes!
Try again, only this time try looking at the actual career numbers.
Actually, I despise the Yankees, almost as much as I despise every Southie-sounding, backward-hat-wearing Red Sox fan who has no idea that most of the world doesn’t actually care about Boston. On behalf of those of us who remember when Reggie played the VAST majority of his career not in NY, shove it.
Good blessing there.. One less yankee won’t clog the roadways, nor come down and attempt to try and change a way of life has worked flawlessly for generations for us so called “southies”.
Stay up north and tax yourselves into oblivion. suits me perfectly fine. dirtbag.
I guess that means ARod will never be in HOF because a failed test is a failed test.
Did I say otherwise? He has nothing to do with this. But yes, A-Rod won’t get in until they allow Bonds, Clemens, etc in.
Hopefully that’s the case, but there’s more to it than that. There is no way he will be able to escape the fact that he so blatantly lied publicly about, what turned out to be, nearly a decade’s worth of juicing.
He is FAR from being one of the games greatest players. Lol
Totally agree!,,
Boston baseball will be very different without Papi.
But I guess we can already announce your 2017 starting DH, Hanley Ramirez.
Unless they trade him
No reason to now really. He only has to stumble through defense for one more season and then he’s free of it forever.
Ramirez will be gone by then, Traded or Medically retired !
Man are they going to be power-deprived when he leaves. Do they have any power outfield bats in the minors?
Devers is one
moncada, devers, benintendi, and chavis all project to be above average power hitters and they have a few guys who have upside like basabe in short A but his contact needs improvement but is also 19 so give him time.
Bautista and Encarnacion are free agents at the end of this year.
And Bautista kills in Fenway….
If Boston gets them both
If Boston gets both, I might stop being a fan of the Blue Jays.
Please….. no farewell tour.
You are better than that, Papi.
What’s wrong with farewell tours?
Even if he doesn’t want one he’ll probably still get one considering how long he’s been in the league and his recognition/reputation.
MLB loves them, it boosts attendance in every city knowing its the last time anyone will get to see him play.
I’m just not sure he’ll actually go through with it.
We’re you complaining when Jeter, Chipper and Mo got one?
I don’t understand why people hate it. They aren’t televised except at the ASG, and if you don’t want to see it in person, then don’t attend their final game at whatever stadium he is at.
They’re talked about incessantly by the commentators though. I don’t begrudge MLB or the teams for milking easy marketing, but I see why fans who tune in every day get real tired of them.
It’s a slow sport. Gotta talk about something.
Oh and there’s also a Mute button on the remote.
I’d rather them talk about something else.
What makes you think he even deserves one?
Well, we’re getting a jump on all the well deserved pomp and circumstance. Sad to see it made official, but we all knew this was coming soon.
Most importantly, this spells out options for Boston’s off season. They’ll need to account for Papi’s spot in the lineup I’m 2017 so that opens all sorts of possibilities for this off season. I say all FAs are in play now…even OFs since JBJ can be traded. Maybe a package for Cargo…?
Gonna be a great off season.
The game will be a lot better and cleaner with him gone.
/looks at user name
/shakes head
I’m pretty sure he feels the same way about A-Rod too
Arods career is so much shadier then Ortiz. I see no reason why Ortiz wont get in. It looks like the other guys who might have like Piazza will get in. If Ortiz was cheating we would probably have more to show for it then one unknown test that for all we know could have been something from GNC that was on the list at the time before they made it against the rules.
“I see no reason why Ortiz wont get in. ”
You joking? I see multiple reasons why
1 – DH (It’s why Edgar isn’t in)
2- Failed Test or Suspicion (It’s why Bonds, McGwire, Bagwell, etc. Aren’t in)
1. Ortiz has 500 homers and Martinez had 309.
2. The only test he has “failed” in his entire career during the height of PED suspicion is very suspect. The other players you mentioned played the vast majority of their years without widespread drug tests, whereas Ortiz has passed every single valid drug test over a long career.
3. He’s David Ortiz, the man who helped end “the curse”, won 3 World Series rings and was WS MVP.
1 – Home Runs are not the only stat. Fred McGrif had 493, the same amount Lou Gehrig had. I don’t think anyone would say McGriff = Gehrig
2- Okay. How many tests did Schilling, Bagwell, Piazza, etc. fail?
3- So he helped end a “curse”, he’s a HOFer? Paul Konerko helped end the White Sox curse (which was longer). He’s no HOFer
1) Had Mcgrif hit 7 more he probably would be in. Thats the hall right there.
2) You keep saying Schilling but he has nothing to do with anything. He’s not in because he is borderline and known as a jerk.
3) Its just one of those things to add to a legacy. Without that homerun in 1960 Bill Mazarski is probably not in the hall. The hall is fickle.
1 – That’s pretty pathetic that SEVEN Home Runs would keep someone out of the HOF. I can bet he wouldn’t have gotten in even if he reached 500. Johnny Damon fell just short of 3000 hits, and I can bet if he got 3000 he wouldn’t be in. In 18 seasons, Damon was an AS only 2 times and was only on 4 MVP ballots (ranked no higher than 13th)
2- Schilling may be borderline but being a jerk is not why he isn’t in. Many jerks in the HOF (Cobb, Reggie, etc.)
3- Sure it looks good on a resume. Maybe he gets a few votes cause of it.
Its probably true. Some writers just pick things that they look for and don’t vote otherwise. If you look at the history of players getting in much later then there is a very high chance, imo that the crime dog will get in one day.
It really doesn’t help. Look at Jim Rice. It took him forever. Cobb was literally the greatest player before Ruth. Also there is some evidence that a lot of stories about him may not have been true.
On top of the homeruns and being one of the most feared hitters on a popular teams, hes going to get in.Five years from now Piazza and Bagwell will already probably be in.
It’s interesting you mention Rice and Mazeroski. The absurdity of former getting elected to the Hall is a large reason for the remake of the voting rules, and the absurdity of the latter getting in is a large reason for a remake of the veteran’s committee (though to be fair, if the voters of the 1980s valued defense the way they should have, he probably would have gotten in then).
The second one I have already stated many times.His connection to PED’s is beyond flimsy.Every other accused player has tons of things against them, not one shady test. Bonds, Clemons and those guys made a mockery out of the sport on many different levels and there is lots of reason to believe they cheated and lied many times.
Martinez played in an era where offensive numbers were off the charts (because of cheaters like Sosa and Bonds) He was a DH which is a postion that many believe should have power. He didn’t have anywhere near the power Ortiz had.He also didn’t reach any of the lock in numbers like 500 home runs or 3000 hits. Ortiz has game defining moments. He is an icon in a major sports city. Players have gotten into the hall of fame on postseason heroics before. Its not new. That said Edgar will probably get in one day.
Hilarious I put up facts but get downvotes lol. You Bahstin homers lol
I see many opinions but few stone facts.
Sounds like a typical Sox fan reply.
Shame!
Shame? Ok..
I do hate arod since it came out he cheated. The Yankees should have released him last year after getting caught again.
Hence why I said you probably feel the same about A-Rod (that the game would be better and cleaner with him gone too)
Why because I’m not a hypocrite Boston fan who makes excuses for when their team or player is caught cheating. If another player on another team cheats, Boston fans will tear them a new one. Yet when a Boston player cheats, you people makes excuses and deny that the player cheated and treat them like a god.
Or its because every situation in life is different and we shouldn’t just judge every single case the same? Maybe just sit back and look at the facts?
Said it before…typical Sox fan comment…seeing nothing but rosebuds with everything Boston.
Huh seems like you just don’t like the Red Sox.
So … 2026 is the next year you are expecting the Yanks to make the playoffs?
Agreed, my relative from DR says he Dirty !
I’m pretty sure the city of Boston won’t let this happen, ha.
I’d prefer he retires when he puts up two bad years in a row, the game just won’t be the same without him.
Why two bad years in a row? He wants to retire on top not like Willie Mays. He also is 40 so one bad year would probably be it if he wants to retire a Red Sox.
Ortiz signed as a free agent with Boston. He wasn’t traded
I was wondering if anyone else caught that besides me.
point? he was released by the twins
My bad. I couldn’t remember exactly what happened, glanced at history on B-Ref, and mistook his earlier trade for what brought him to BOS. Fixed.
Please no retirement tour, please no retirement tour, please no retirement tour…
You’re the second person to post this – why do people hate farewell tours? It’s really just for all the fans in other cities to know that they should go watch him play one last time.
I hated it with Jeter/Rivera, and I’ll hate it with Ortiz. They actually had Jeter talk through Koji Uehara’s one and likely only All Star game appearance. I can’t stand all the obsessive commentating. Celebrate him for one game at home. Don’t give him a rocking chair made out of home run balls or any other such nonsense. Let him take a lap around Fenway after his last at bat. Retirement used to be so much classier. It’s turned into a spectacle. Ortiz actually said he was going to announce he wasn’t coming back after he was all done. I really wish he had done that. Or at least told the team and waited until the All Star Break was over to announce it to the fans. Everything has to be bigger, better. It’s just getting absurd.
Well I should start by saying that I despite farewell tours so I hope this doesn’t turn into the Jeter tour from a couple of years ago. I am interested to see how the Yankees decide to pay tribute to Ortiz after Fenway celebrated Mariano and Jeter in back to back seasons.
Why? What was wrong with the Jeter tour other than his really terrible on-field play? I don’t understand the hate.
No hate. Just don’t like the concept. If the sox want to honor him great. I don’t see why any other team needs to get involved. I also don’t like the idea of announcing your retirement a full year in advance. Makes it feels like you have one foot out the door. No problem announcing it in September on a losing team or in October as a momentum thing, but if you are already mentally prepared to retire in the prior November then you should probably just hang them up. My opinion. Don’t care if people like it or hate it
So the biggest question- HOFer or No?
My vote would be No until the HOF allows players like Bonds and Edgar in. Has nothing to do with the DH either. There is not a single player in the HOF who has failed a test. Ortiz should not be the first.
Great career, but too much suspicion (hey, Bagwell and Schilling aren’t in)
Bonds and Mcgwire there is so much evidence against. If we don’t let in players like Ortiz then it’s pretty much a witch hunt. I think Bagwell will get in.Correct me if I’m wrong but Schilling has nothing to do with steroids right? He’s just not in because his regular season numbers are not over the top and seems like a huge jerk.
Keeping Ortiz out is not a witch hunt. There are reasons why he can be left out in addition to why he can be in.
Obviously you are saying he should be in cause you’re a Boston fan so I can understand that. But don’t call it a witch hunt if he wasn’t voted in
Besides, he isn’t on the ballot for another 5-6 years. A lot can change by then.
We shall see.
Honestly when it comes to the hall of fame I try to rid myself of basis if at all possible.. I put him in the same category as Bagwell and Piazza. All should and probably will get in. Bonds was putting up video game numbers and ended up before a judge. Sosa and those other guys made jerks of themselves and the game before congress. If there was a legit positive test for Ortiz I would 100% not want him in.MLB has never released data from that test so it would be unfair to hold it against him or anyone at all. I would bet my money that several guys who did PEDs are already in. Alot of guys cheated like Perry. I’m mora against the guys that altered the records by using sterods that would kill a horse and then went before congress only wanting to talk about the future or in Spanish.
Oh I can bet there are plenty of past users in HOF.
I would personally put him in (Granted I am a Sox fan so naturally anything I say is assumed biased). I would also put in Bonds, Clemons though. I feel like all three of them were so talented and dominant throughout their careers that it could not possibly be because of steroids alone. Also, considering none of them failed drug tests after the mitchell report and the MLB officially made PED’s illegal. I also would have included Arod if not for the recent Biogenesis issues and Manny if not for… fertility pills?
“until the HOF allows players like Bonds and Edgar in. Has nothing to do with the DH either.”
If it has nothing to do with the DH, then why mention Edgar? He has zero PED connections.
That said, actually considering the DH thing, I agree. Edgar should be in anyway, but he should definitely be in before Ortiz because he was a much better player.
I’m saying Edgar is not in Because he was a DH. I never said I agree with that. I think Edgar should be in too.
I guess I was wondering why you were mentioning Edgar there. I see you were having trouble posting with the ‘Awaiting Moderation’ thing, so I assume things got garbled a little.
Man I remember when David Arias popped onto the scene…..and then of course we traded him just like VTek
Thank Goddddddddd.
…a huge sloppy round of Santo Domingo Milkshakes for everyone !!!
Red Sox signed Ortiz after the Twins released him — not a trade.
As noted above, my mistake, and fixed.
(My comments have been awaiting confirmation so sorry if this gets posted multiple times)
HOF or no? My vote is No until Edgar and Bonds get in.
Bonds will never get in
I can see the Edgar comp. I don’t see what Bonds has to do with anything though. Edgar should be in. Papi should also get in when his time comes. If you don’t want to make him a first ballot HOF because of the DH thing, fine. He could have played a passable first base and then everyone would be screaming for first ballot.
Bonds never failed any test though we all know he was doing something. Ortiz has failed a test but they probably will never reveal what it is for. That, in addition to being a DH, is why the Voters may not vote him in.
Edgar is not in because he’s a DH. Bagwell is not in because of suspicion. 2 things that may very well keep Ortiz out. Why is he a HOFer but not the other 2?
they had evidence on Bonds. Why else would they have had him up on perjury charges? I wish they would just release the Mitchell Report so the rumors and innuendo could stop. Are they going to wait until everyone involved is dead like for the Kennedy files?
The Mitchell Report Was released. I assume you mean the 103 players list (which included Ortiz). Unfortunately it’s all in a court of law.
exactly, I want them to release the list of 103 players with what they tested positive for in order to put an end to unfounded suspicions. Evidence-based ammunition, fine and dandy.
By the way, you seem pretty reasonable for a Yankees fan. I think the down votes on your posts above are solely due to your avatar.
Lol. Probably so. Thanks Dan.
How many WS MVPs did Edgar have? LCS MVPs? Home run titles? Post Season Walk-off hits?
That is not why Edgar is left out, nor does it prove why Ortiz should be in over an 82 game sample.
If Ortiz should be in because of the postseason, then Bernie Williams should be in (using Your analogy)
Ortiz: 138 wRC , 46.1 fWAR, 139 OPS , 50.4 rWAR
Edgar: 147 wRC , 65.5 fWAR, 147 OPS , 68.3 rWAR
I don’t see what post-season series MVP or walk-off hits have to do with it, except being cherries on top of a nice sundae of a career (tortured food metaphor, ftw). But overall, Edgar was quite a bit better than Ortiz. I love both of them, btw, and would put them both in the HoF.
The postseason is a crapshoot. That’s why guys like Daniel Murphy end up becoming amazing and guys like Kershaw and Price struggle.
And by the way, Edgar did have “The Double,” where he got the walk off double in the 1995 Mariners-Yankees ALDS. That is by far the greatest moment in Mariners history (which isn’t saying much, but still).
Trying to see why he’d stick around any longer. He has 500 HR, 1600 RBI, 2300 hits, 2 WS rings. 3000 hits is out of reach as is 2000 RBI’s. 600 HR is a possibility if he played 3 or 4 more years but that is a lot. Career earnings over $150 million after this year. There really isn’t anything for him to do now but play because he loves it.
I think if he stuck around too long he would only risk hurting his average numbers and not do much to boast his counting numbers. 600 hr would be the big thing to chase but at his age that would be quite a long way off. He has 3 world serires btw.
3 WS rings*
PED’s will help you play till 40
how dare you besmirch Jeter in that fashion!
Hey ya never know.
If he tested positive for rhoids, when why should he be treated different from ARod, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Canseco or Palmiero when it comes to the HOF?
To be fair, nobody knows what he tested positive for. It may be roids, it may not be roids
Either way, the voters would be dumb to vote him in and leave players like Bagwell and Edgar out
Bagwell – 79.6 Career WAR. Not in HOF because of suspicion
Edgar – 68.3. Not in cause of DH
Ortiz – 50.4. Why is he a HOFer but not the other 2? (I’m not asking you Lance. Just anyone in general).
Bagwell and Edgar are getting raw deals.
As for Ortiz, I’d say you also have to include in his postseason numbers. Also I’d think you as well as anyone should know the HOF shouldn’t be set on some WAR milestone bar.
OPS+, BA and OBP also have the 2 ahead of him
The postseason is a very small sample. Ortiz is definitely one of the greatest postseason players of all time, but that is not why he Should get in. By that analogy, Bernie Williams should be a HOFer. (He’s my favorite of all time, but I know he was no HOFer)
I dont think a player should be a HOFer because of what happened in 3-4 series’. If David Roberts is Caught stealing or if Phil Coke faces Ortiz instead of Jose Veras, I’m sure everyone is talking a different story then
I am not saying Postseason has Zero factor, but it shouldn’t be what puts you in or keeps you out.
And Ortiz is ahead of both in HR, RBIs, and SLG.
Playoffs always matter. Take for instance the old argument of Rivera v. Hoffman. The one thing that was always brought up was Mariano’s playoff legacy. Switch the teams and you have a different argument.
However, that argument is somewhat similar to the Bernie Williams argument. Hoffman and Rivera had the HOF creds without looking at playoff numbers. Bernie Williams was a above average player who would have only been in the HOF if he held most of the playoff records. But looking at his regular season numbers alone was enough to keep him out. Ortiz on the other hand has the numbers and my point is the playoff heroics are enough to give him additional arguments.
Rivera has better numbers than Hoffman almost everywhere, regular season included. Rivera has the 3rd best WHIP of all time and best ERA+ of all time. He’s 5th all time in K/BB ratio, 3rd all time in WPA.
Rivera > Hoffman and it is not cause just cause of the postseason
I’d also say Wagner > Hoffman, but sadly Wagner won’t make a second ballot whereas Hoffman will surely make the HOF despite only leading Wagner in saves.
Of course post season should count when it comes to the HOF. But Riviera’s regular season success is outstanding enough. He’s a no brainer.
All 3 should be in the HOF and the writers should be the folks to decide
Or Fred McGriff, one of the most steady, reliable power hitters ever.
Here are the facts:
In 2004 Baseball officially created a banned substance list and launched a drug screening program. In 2009 it was leaked by an unknown source to the New York Times that Ortiz had tested positive for some substance in 2003 that was later banned. In 2003 Ortiz was a marginal major leaguer and took numerous supplements that were all obtained over the counter. Neither Ortiz nor anyone else connected with MLB ever saw the results or could even name what he tested positive for. The records were destroyed by a court order and Ortiz was never told what the alleged banned substance was. To this day the only “evidence” is that article in the New York Times that of course did not name a source. Some have suspected that the Yankees were behind the “leak” to the NYT as it only gave 5 names and 2 were Red Sox players.
Since then Ortiz has passed countless tests every year without a single failed test. He has been tested during the season and off season. He has been tested in the US as well as the Dominican Republic. Shane Victorino stated that Ortiz has been tested much more than any player he has ever played with. Every “random” set of tests has included Ortiz yet he has never failed a single one.
An article in the NYT based on an UNNAMED source that states Ortiz tested positive for an UNNAMED substance that was NOT against the rules in 2003 is not something that should keep a man out of the HOF.
Several things here that aren’t facts
” The records were destroyed by a court order and Ortiz was never told what the alleged banned substance was”
The records are not destroyed. They are sealed
“Some have suspected that the Yankees were behind the “leak” to the NYT as it only gave 5 names and 2 were Red Sox players.”
I’m not sure who came up with that. Another leaked name was a Yankee in A-Rod.
“Shane Victorino stated that Ortiz has been tested much more than any player he has ever played with”
Except the only way that would be possible would be if a player failed a test in the past. If that is indeed a fact, then Ortiz failed a test in the past (may be the one in 03, maybe another)
There are players on the ballot who aren’t in because of various reasons, including mere suspicion and being a DH. Why should Ortiz should be an exception above all others? Because of 3 World Series teams?
No, he should get in because he deserves it. If you play the game of, “if [INSERT PLAYER X] doesn’t get in, then nobody who isn’t on his level should get in!”, then you’ll end up leaving out a whole lot of worthy players.
Unconfirmed suspicions are not a good reason to deny a worthy player the Hall of Fame. If you disagree, you’re advocating for a witch hunt. That many worthy players have been left out for this reason is not a justification for continuing to do so. That’s like saying, “sure, we could repeal this unfair tax, but then future generations wouldn’t have to pay it like we do, and that would be unfair to US!” It’s a senseless argument.
MB932, you should check to see if you know what you are talking about before you dispute my facts. You are absolutely wrong on so many of your points.
In this article: bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/03/26/david-ortiz-stil…
It clearly states:
“The 2003 records have since been DESTROYED under a court order, and no one has identified the lawyers who leaked Ortiz’s name. Nor have inquiries by the players union and Major League Baseball determined why the leakers specifically targeted Ortiz and Ramirez.”
You are also wrong as ARod was not named in the aforementioned Times article but was named in a Sports Illustrated article.
You are also wrong about Ortiz failing ANY drug test in the past. Victorino’s point was he has “randomly” been tested more than anyone he knows. Every test of Ortiz has been officially a random test as he has never failed a single one in over 80 tests dating all the way back to 2004.
Furthermore MLB has officially stated that the 2003 tests (that may or may not have returned as a positive for Ortiz) in question DID return as positive for some over the counter products.
Lol. 80 tests huh? Cause Ortiz said that, it must be true?
Well as I wrote before, that is absolutely not possible Unless he previously failed a test.
bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/03/27/dear-david-ortiz…
Who cares if it’s an unnamed source, Ortiz confirmed he was on the list, and by Victorino stating he’s being tested more than anyone, and Ortiz claiming the same, he is lying or foolishly admitting that he failed some sort of test since 2003. Another fact is that Ortiz’ trainer is heavily linked to PEDs.
In other words, it’s an unconfirmed rumor that he ever took PEDs. Which means that if you would vote against him on that basis, you are advocating for a witch hunt.
Wrong! Ortiz has only been randomly tested. He has just been “randomly tested” over 80 times. Victorino’s point was he has “randomly” been tested more than anyone he knows. Every test of Ortiz has been officially a random test as he has never failed a single one in over 80 tests dating all the way back to 2004.
Wow…guess we should believe It because the “flyin Hawaiian” Shane Victorino said so.
To bad the DH rule wouldn’t go out with him.
If you look at Ortiz in a vacuum he is an obvious hall of famer, but the voters have put too many stipulations on other guys to suddenly start voting in a vacuum, the hall of fame process needs to be completely reformed to get guys who deserve to be in, in and fix the entire steroid era make a decision. The 70’s 80’s and 90’s are extremely under represented in the hall.
Agree they’ll never be a player like Big Papi again!!!
Well, Ortiz could be playing the retirement card to get another extension
“From an on-field perspective, Ortiz has almost exclusively been a DH, which obviously limits his overall value. ”
In the AL the DH is a required position every manager must fill. Ortiz was 1 1Bman and his team chose to play him at DH because that is where he had the most value to the team. If he played for a NL team, he would have played at 1B. Not that he would have been a great 1Bman, but there are a number of HOF’ers who were not very good defensively.
Why would David Ortiz be excluded from the HOF for not playing a defensive position when we all know he would have played that position as poorly as Derek Jeter played his.
The position adjustments used for WAR have made a mockery of sports analysis IMO. These are the same adjustments that told us Hanley Ramirez could be a decent LF’er by virtue of occupying real estate at SS
“In the AL the DH is a required position every manager must fill”
Believe it or not, that actually is not true. If for whatever reason he wanted to, a pitcher may bat in the AL. Now there are instances when a pitcher in the AL has to bat, such as when the DH plays in the field, but it is not required
” Why would David Ortiz be excluded from the HOF for not playing a defensive position when we all know he would have played that position as poorly as Derek Jeter played his”
Im not disagreeing with you, but Edgar Martinez is excluded for this very same reason.
“These are the same adjustments that told us Hanley Ramirez could be a decent LF’er by virtue of occupying real estate at SS”
Source? I never heard such a thing
“Hanley Ramirez could be a decent LF’er by virtue of occupying real estate at SS”
That’s not what WAR does at all, and yes people thought he would be bad at left field.
DH’s should not be allowed in the HOF, ped or no ped. They don’t have to weather the “defensive” beating that other position players do. You’re in a much better position to succeed offensively when that’s ALL you have to do…sorry, not impressed.
He’s always whining and moaning about his reputation or contract status. Grow up, ya big baby.
Ortiz is a master of the craft that is hitting, and nothing more.
If being a big baby or disliked by a large group is enough of an argument to keep players out then there goes 90% of the Hall.
Then let’s not allow starting pitchers in the HOF they don’t go through hell either. They play every 5 games.
I’m a great believer in respecting what other fans think about their idols. Ortiz will get his year, MLB already features him prominently and that will be amped up, like Jeter and Mariano–it’s good publicity. As for Ortiz’ legacy and his HOF-worthiness, history will decide later, and place his accomplishments and his flaws in the appropriate perspective.
Been reading some of the “juicing” comments. I think MLB is going to have to rationalize this era in some way. As much as I disliked the cheating, and that’s what it was, it’s going to be very difficult to keep out players like Bonds and Clemens on a permanent basis. I would also find it hard to justify keeping McGwire out while taking in someone like Ortiz. McGwire has better slugging numbers and he played the field almost exclusively. McGwire was even first in range factor at IB in 1998 and 1999.
Please tell me what Ortiz failed a test for? Was it steroids or some over the counter vitamin or something? Please tell me. McGwire admitted to using steroids 5 years ago. Whereas Ortiz failed a test for an unknown substance over 12 years ago and has vehemently denied ever using steroids since then. And McGwire was not well loved by the media (aka the voting committee) whereas Ortiz is loved by them. Which is why I believe he will make it in. The media loves him. He was a great player, came up clutch in both the regular and postseason and that will make up for him not playing the field.
It is not known what Ortiz failed for. It may have been legal, it may have been illegal.
Instead of McGwire, how about we compare him to Jeff Bagwell who had a 79.6 WAR compared to Ortiz who is at 50.4.
Know why Bagwell is likely left out? PED suspicion. I assure you there is a great chance Ortiz doesn’t get in becasue of PED suspicion. And he surely will not get votes because he was a DH. And I say that because that is exactly what is keeping out Edgar Martinez (who also has a higher WAR than Ortiz career).
This is why I started the original post that MLB needs to rationalize this era. Maybe there are some players who were so clearly serial cheaters who benefited so much from the juice that their stats would be merely good without them. Maybe those people should be left out. Others; I think we are just going to have to contextualize as best as we can, maybe adjusting downwards somewhat for the “Juiced” part.
Manny was one of the best few hitters I’ve ever seen, and i doubt he”s going to get much support when he comes up this year.
At some point, there will be a consensus on how to treat this. It may come slowly, and it may come too late for some (Palmeiro is done, Sosa is barely hanging on) but it’s going to happen because you can’t wipe out a generation of baseball players.
Honestly, I’m not going to love it. I think they gained an unfair advantage over other players, and this is a competitive game. But I think it’s inevitable. In the highest reaches of MLB ownership and governance, the use was tolerated, and maybe even tacitly encouraged for a while.
Strictly on merit, without PEDs coming into it, or the love of an adoring media, McGwire belongs, and before Ortiz does. He has a superior on the field record. I’m not arguing that Ortiz will not make it. I’m saying taking him, and leaving out McGwire, strikes me us unfair. I have no idea why Ortiz was named–the information was never released, but his denial is irrelevant. There were and are a lot of deniers. Oritz has no more, and no less, credibility than the rest of them.
I am not saying which one deserves to be in but it seems as if you are implying that they should be treated the same as far as PEDs are concerned when actually McGwire has admitted to using steroids and Ortiz has denied using steroids and has not failed a test since MLB testing began in 2004. I do not think they are equals in that regard.
I wonder if it wouldn’t be prudent to leave Hanley alone in left next year then, and move him over to DH duty when Papi leaves. That would let them keep Shaw on the bag, which most would rather see anyways. This is all on the assumption that they don’t move him over the offseason, which realistically isn’t very likely.
It’ll be sad to see Papi go, but everyone retires at some point. He gave us some absolutely great years, and the the city of Boston and the Red Sox fans across the country won’t fail to let him know that next year.
Hanley will never play a game there again ever. EVER. I will not go through that again.
Don’t get me wrong, like many, I want him gone too, but his contract and attitude make him such an undesirable trade. Boston would have to eat a ton to get him gone, and thats if someones willing to deal with his club cancer personality. If they have to keep him, he’d be much better of as the future DH, and if they planned on doing that, then I’d just leave him in left next year and keep Shaw at 1st. The only problem is if Hanley turns into the sort of DH that Papi was, and they need his bat while playing in a NL park in the playoffs. Then they’d have to put him somewhere, and I’m not sure if it’s a scarier thought of him in left or at 1st.
Edgar Martinez should make the Hall before Ortiz. Not taking anything away from his stats, he deserves to be in the as well. Edgar was a better a better hitter. It’s a shame he isn’t already in.
I am not going to agree that Edgar deserves to be in more than Ortiz but I will agree that he deserves to be in. It is preposterous that anyone should be held back because they were a DH. It is a fricking position on AL teams! Every team has one every game! Someone has to do it.
I will tell you something else. Many major leaguers cannot do it. Many have tried but cannot maintain the focus needed to stay “in game mode” while not playing the field. Edgar was a decent 3B but the Mariners had failed with a couple others at DH and Edgar was somewhat forced into it.
They both deserve to be in.
Many on the ballot deserve to be in there. I think Ortiz should be a HOFer but I don’t think he should be voted in ahead of the other guys (Edgar, Bagwell, etc)
MB932, you should check to see if you know what you are talking about before you dispute my facts. You are absolutely wrong on so many of your points.
In this article: bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/03/26/david-ortiz-stil…
It clearly states:
“The 2003 records have since been DESTROYED under a court order, and no one has identified the lawyers who leaked Ortiz’s name. Nor have inquiries by the players union and Major League Baseball determined why the leakers specifically targeted Ortiz and Ramirez.”
You are also wrong as ARod was not named in the aforementioned Times article but was named in a Sports Illustrated article.
You are also wrong about Ortiz failing ANY drug test in the past. Victorino’s point was he has “randomly” been tested more than anyone he knows. Every test of Ortiz has been officially a random test as he has never failed a single one in over 80 tests dating all the way back to 2004.
Furthermore MLB has officially stated that the 2003 tests (that may or may not have returned as a positive for Ortiz) in question DID return as positive for some over the counter products.
I responded to you already about this. The 80 tests would be about 7-8 tests a year which is not possible.
Read what Dan S of the Boston Globe wrote too
bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/03/27/dear-david-ortiz…
.
Personally, I have no issue with a DH making the HOF. I’m an NL fan and hate the DH, but it’s still a real position. Just as a closer who pitches only 1 inning and a starter who only affects 20% of his team’s games should be in as well
I agree. Did you know that no punter and only one pure kicker — Stenerud– is in the football HOF because they are not real players. This does not include the old timers who did it all.
I think Adam Viniteiri will be in it for sure.
Too many sport’s writers are vindictive jerks who could not play but love to hate on those that could. I am old enough to have seen Ted Williams hit at Fenway and to have read him being ripped by writers. Who were those writers who did not vote for Mays, Mantle, Pedro, Seaver, Maddux , Bench et al for the HOF, JERKS; and you almost never hear another writer rip the idiots. I hate AROD but could not believe how unfairly he was treated by the press when he was stalked by Roberts as a publicity stunt for a failed book that managed to uncover nothing new. She got her sales $$$ thanks to unfair press.
Great points about the writers. I wish they would change to voting and have all living HOFs vote on who gets in and who doesn’t. Forget these damn writers, how the hell do you not have Pedro on your ballot at all?
Ortiz is a shoe-in with him having 7 Edgar Martinez Awards while Edgar has none.
Ortiz can take his boorish disrespect for the game and his PED loaded play back to Adar. If another 39 yo acted like him we’d all be screaming PEDs
Wow, some of these comments are crazy. Anyone that compares a player to Palmeiro, Clemens, Sosa or McGwire needs to take a better look. Whether right or wrong, and I’m not the one to decide, those 4 sealed their own fate when they went in front of Congress and lied through their teeth. PEDs aside, the American people can’t stomach that type of arrogance. For Gods sake, Clemens threw his own wife under the bus. Bonds sealed his fate, unfortunately, by being drug through the legal process based on speculation, once again, I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but the aforementioned players were found guilty in the court of public opinion and it’s costing them. If anyone has any tangible evidence as to this failed test of Papi, please produce it. Why should a MLB player be punished and kept out of the HOF strictly because they were a DH. It’s a position on half of the teams in the MLB. With that being said, Edgar should already be in the HOF. Like Papi or not, he is an icon in Boston and the MLB. He has more rings the any Red Sox player in the history of the game, he carried the Sox through 2013, has produced on the big stage as nobody I have ever seen. Yes, I’m a Sox fan and always have been but the things this guy has done and what he means to Boston and MLB are immeasurable. He is a Hall of Famer.
What a joke, please allow me to explain. When Jeter was going through his last year retirement tour big pompous said he wouldn’t want to go through what Jeter did! He stated this to the media out of the blue as if he was putting himself in the same category as Derek Jeter! Let me say this, he had a brilliant career which is tainted by steroid use. If big pompous wants a retirement tour now and the Yankees are to salute him with a gift I would expect Boston to do the same for ARoid!
Rather you love him or hate him he is one of the top two most important Red Sox of all time, along will Williams. He helped win three world series and also helped in some other great runs ( like 03 and 08). Maybe arrogant but he knew how to put on a show and never was a problem in the clubhouse.
Top two? no Yaz? No Fisk? Rice?
One of the last remaining steroid relics. I have to hand it to Ortiz. He has managed to get the media to eat out of the palm of his hand and hypnotized everyone seemingly to forget he ever got busted for roids. A-Rod should hook up with his PR guy, haha. I will miss him about as much as I miss Bonds. At least Bonds was a future HOFer before he juiced up. Ortiz…… not so much. And I doubt Ortiz even is with the roids.
Big Papi not in the hall of fame? I am not even Red Sox fan and i know that does not make sense. He is one of the greatest hitters baseball has ever seen. Besides that, most players will agree that being a DH is not as easy as it seems. Most cannot find the consistency, which is why full time DHs are not that common. Basically, this would mean that being a DH prevents you from becoming a Hall of Famer. If Edgar Martinez eventually makes it into the Hall of Fame, Ortiz is an automatic lock.
Agree with your last sentence. My issue with Ortiz and the Hall is that there are many players left on the ballot who have had better careers than him (excluding the postseason ). Does 3 WS wins, a team accomplishment, Really put Ortiz ahead of others?
It will be interesting to see if he is voted into the hall. I wonder if his ‘clutch’ hitting will be taken into account. (I won’t go into the other questions since those are well covered here already). The one easily researched stat I could think of to illustrate clutch is number of walkoffs in the postseason.
Total in mlb history: 123
# of players with 2 postseason walkoff hits: 5 (including Ortiz)
# of players with 3 postseason walkoff hits: 1 (Ortiz)
Of course, he didn’t just do it in the postseason, but had/has a crazy ability to do it when it counts most: More than 45% of his 503 home runs were either go-ahead or game-tying (11 walk-off, 45 tying, 175 go ahead).
David Ortiz is one of my favorite ball players. He is an clutch as they come and without him, the Red Sox would not have won two World Series. He carried them in both 2004 and 2013. In my opinion, he’s the best DH of all time and not only a leader on the field but a great human being. He won the Roberto Clemente Award and that speaks for itself! I am glad he pre announced his retirement this week so fans can savor him in his final year. I will be trying to attend every game he plays in both Oakland and San Francisco this year. I feel lucky that I grabbed his 333rd career HR and it was the first Splash Hit ever hit by an American league player. He hit it in late June 2010 off 2 time Cy Young winner Tim Lincecum. I grabbed it out of San Francisco Bay. I will be trying to catch another of his HR’s this year and with a lot of luck, I just might!!!
Big Papi has been my favorite player since i was about 3 years old. I hate to see him go but he’s leaving on good terms. At Least we got one more year before he is gone.
Wish he’d broken bonds single season homerun record. If anyone ever had a chance, I thought it’d be him. Oh well. Guess ill hold my breath for Melvin Upton … (sarcasm)