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Cardinals Extend Yadier Molina

By Steve Adams | April 2, 2017 at 10:34am CDT

The Cardinals and catcher Yadier Molina have finalized a three-year extension that will guarantee the seven-time All-Star $60MM, making him the majors’ highest-paid catcher by average annual value. Molina will collect $20MM in each season of the deal, which doesn’t include any deferred money.

Yadier Molina | Jeff Curry-USA TODAY Sports

St. Louis and Molina were reportedly in serious talks over the duration of Spring Training, with an update last weekend suggesting that the two sides had “made progress” on a deal. Molina is represented by MDR Sports Management.

The new contract will keep the franchise icon in St. Louis through the 2020 campaign rather than allowing him to hit free agency at season’s end. Though he’s set to turn 35 years of age in July, Molina remained a productive backstop in 2016, hitting .307/.360/.427 with eight homers and 38 doubles in 581 plate appearances.

Molina also retained well above-average marks in terms of pitch-framing — a trend that has followed him throughout a career that has seen him earn eight Gold Glove nods, four Platinum Glove Awards and a Silver Slugger. He’s garnered MVP votes on five occasions, including a pair of Top 4 finishes in 2012 and 2013.

Of course, Molina is hardly without his red flags. He’s already 34 years of age and will turn 35 this July, meaning he’ll be 38 years of age for the final three months or so of this contract in 2020. Beyond that, Molina has seen his power numbers dip since his 2011-13 peak.

While some of that could potentially be attributed to a surgeries to repair torn ulnar collateral ligaments in each of his thumbs, and he did demonstrate an uptick in pop last year, there’s no guarantee that he’ll return to his previous levels of power output. And, if his power production trends in the other direction, as it did in 2015, Molina’s limited on-base skills (6.2 percent walk rate since 2013) create the possibility that he could be a decidedly below-average hitter. In fact, dating back to 1900, only nine qualified catchers have turned in even a league-average batting line between their age-35 and age-37 seasons (hat tip: Fangraphs leaderboards).

On the defensive side of the coin, though his framing marks remained excellent, Molina threw out a career-worst 21 percent of attempted base thieves during the 2016 campaign. His career 42 percent caught-stealing rate lends plenty of reason to expect a rebound, but the surprising dip in effectiveness is nonetheless worth monitoring.

Molina joins Buster Posey, Brian McCann and Russell Martin as catchers with average annual values of more than $16MM on their respective contracts. Molina suggested last week that there are “too many” catchers earning more than him. Posey’s $18.56MM annual rate had been tops among backstops, but he’ll slide to second in the wake of the Molina extension.

From a bigger-picture perspective, the move to extend Molina effectively blocks top catching prospect Carson Kelly for another three seasons, which will inevitably lead to some degree of trade speculation surrounding the talented 22-year-old. Kelly rates as a consensus Top 100 prospect, with MLB.com rating him 39th overall in the game. ESPN’s Keith Law ranked him 51st on his Top 100 this offseason, while Baseball America tabbed him at No. 65 overall and Baseball Prospectus placed him 81st in the game.

FOX Sports’ Ken Rosenthal first reported the two sides were nearing a deal. FanRag’s Jon Heyman first reported an agreement was in place, and he reported the exact value. USA Today’s Bob Nightengale reported the yearly salaries. Photo courtesy of USA Today Sports Images.

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Newsstand St. Louis Cardinals Transactions Yadier Molina

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149 Comments

  1. calikid13

    8 years ago

    I really hope not… Overpay.

    8
    Reply
    • redbirds22

      8 years ago

      How is this an over pay? He has been under paid for years. Let’s say it’s 20 mil 20 mil 15 mil pay break down that’s a cheap price for good D catcher, BEST pitch caller in the game

      2
      Reply
      • RedBirdsSwaff

        8 years ago

        Agreed.. it’s three years not 5. Cards can afford it. Yadi is going to work his ass off for that money too.

        3
        Reply
      • GoPackGo12

        8 years ago

        You’re also assuming it’s for 55M if it’s for 65M you’re looking at 25, 25, 20…you’re paying a pretty steep premium for a great leader and defensive catcher. Lord knows his bat and 8HR’s aren’t worth anywhere near that

        3
        Reply
      • Lanidrac

        8 years ago

        The fact that he was underpaid still doesn’t make this new deal any less of an overpay. Baseball finances don’t work that way.

        4
        Reply
        • brandons-3

          8 years ago

          No, Baseball finances don’t work that way. Class organizations who recognize and take care of their own, however, do. Yadi joins the likes of Jeter, Chipper, and Kobe as players who were generously compensated beyond their market value in their final years. Class move that doesn’t hinder them. Typical St. Louis.

          Reply
        • timyanks

          8 years ago

          didn’t work on pujols. not, typicle st louis

          1
          Reply
        • Wainofan

          8 years ago

          Cards offered pujols well beyond his declining years value, the angels are hamstrung by pujols contract. Pujols leaving was his fault, not class organizations. If yadi wanted 10 years Cards would have said no way. Three you can absorb and not be hurt, especially with their payroll being low and more coming off the books and new tv deal starting next year, the money is easily there for Yadi.

          1
          Reply
    • headhawks

      8 years ago

      what planet you from cali?? The man is best catcher in MLB and has been for sometime (especially on defensive side…

      Reply
      • chesteraarthur

        8 years ago

        This is a joke, yes?

        8
        Reply
      • MB923

        8 years ago

        Posey is better

        6
        Reply
      • jdgoat

        8 years ago

        He’s the best in the MLB, if lucroy, posey, and maybe Martin, realmuto and grandal all didn’t exist

        1
        Reply
        • CompanyAssassin

          8 years ago

          You might want to take martin, realmuto and grandal far out of the equation. They don’t compare.

          Reply
        • biasisrelitive

          8 years ago

          if Martin plays like he did in the second half he’s out otherwise he’s better. realmuto is young but will be better. grandal is way better right now and it’s not close

          Reply
      • Cleveland - City of Losers

        8 years ago

        He was. He hasn’t been the best for quite a few years. He’s 3rd best in the NL Central even.

        2
        Reply
        • Lanidrac

          8 years ago

          Nah, he’s once again the best in the NL Central now that Lucroy no longer plays there. I agree that there are now a few ahead of him across MLB now, though.

          Although, it is rather silly to be paying a catcher his age this kind of money, which is even more than he’s making per year on his current contract. Nobody would give him this kind of cash in free agency.

          1
          Reply
      • kbarr888

        8 years ago

        The difference of opinion is usually because some guys prefer defense and some prefer offense. Yadi is definitely one of the best defensive catchers in baseball, but his bat is starting to decline. Those who value “offense” will be critical, and those who value “defense” will still drool.

        I happen to lean towards the bat. If you can score a ton of runs, the defense is less critical. I support 3/48 – 3/54 max. 3/65 will come back to haunt them. 4/65 could put Yadi in a position to be a player/coach in 2020 and a bench coach in ’21.

        Reply
  2. joshb600

    8 years ago

    Nice! Good for Yadi. Slight overpay but it’s not my money. Lol

    I wonder if its 3 years, on top of next years option?

    Reply
  3. vinscully16

    8 years ago

    … love Yadi.

    3
    Reply
  4. robertj53086

    8 years ago

    Glad to hear, congrats to Yadi!

    2
    Reply
  5. pjmcnu

    8 years ago

    Jonathan Lucroy just popped a bottle of champagne…

    6
    Reply
    • CursedRangers

      8 years ago

      No doubt!

      Reply
  6. smelliott00

    8 years ago

    I would definitely say it’s an overpay for the production we will likely be getting over the course of this contract, but Yadi has definitely earned himself a good payday and it would have been very hard to watch him even hit the open market, much less walk away. Glad he will now be a Cardinal for life.

    3
    Reply
  7. stl_cards16 2

    8 years ago

    Better than I expected. Yadi gets his money, we get to see him finish his career in St. Louis, and it’s not a contract that’s going to hold the franchise back in any way.

    2
    Reply
  8. Dave 32

    8 years ago

    Great deal as long as they don’t expect him to start the third year and he’ll just mentor Carson Kelly, assuming he’s ready for the majors.

    I’d have honestly rather seen a 2 year extension at 20-23ish so you can bring up Kelly in 2018 and have Yadi and him split some time but I understand it’s a little awkward as long as Yadi isn’t performing poorly.

    2
    Reply
    • gemrookie

      8 years ago

      I agree with your “even more money for 2 years” sentiment. Crazy as it may sound… at the rate MLB is going, heck, in a few years, $17-$18 mil. a year for Molina will look like a bargain. I’m telling u, either Harper or Trout is going to break MLB. It’ll be the shot heard around the world. While lotsa people think Yanks will give Harper $40 mil/yr., are forgetting one thing… weakest position on the Yanks is 3B (not withstanding their pitching woes). Machado is their guy. At a more reasonably approx. $250-$275 mil. contract. Yikes!

      Reply
      • Steve Adams

        8 years ago

        Not related to the Molina talks, but I don’t even think $250MM would get Machado signed right now. In fact, as it stands, I’d say he has a better chance to break the $400MM barrier in free agency than Harper. The way the next two seasons play out will, of course, impact that outcome, but Machado’s earning power is among the best in the game at present.

        2
        Reply
        • kbarr888

          8 years ago

          Stanton got $325 million/13 yrs. Both of those guys will be expecting to exceed that number….IMHO.
          Either could get a $400 million contract, but the years will determine “how expensive they are”. $400 mil/15 years is less than $27 mil/yr…………..(12 years would be $33 mil/yr).

          Nobody pays either guy $40 mil/yr, unless it’s drastically deferred.

          Reply
        • biasisrelitive

          8 years ago

          or a short deal 5/200

          1
          Reply
  9. joshb600

    8 years ago

    Let’s open the debate here.

    Assuming a few more typical Yadi years. Do you guys like his chances at the HOF?

    2
    Reply
    • moe 3

      8 years ago

      YES!!

      2
      Reply
    • cubsfan2489

      8 years ago

      There’s no debate, if he retired tomorrow he’d be a hall of famer

      1
      Reply
      • baines03

        8 years ago

        No he’s not. 33 WAR is very good but nowhere near great or HOF worthy.

        2
        Reply
        • tylerall5

          8 years ago

          The amount of gold gloves alone make him an all star. Yes I know that the award doesn’t really mean much at most positions, but catchers earn gg’s

          Reply
        • chesteraarthur

          8 years ago

          I don’t think anyone is arguing that he has not been an all star.

          Reply
        • Fanofthebestteam

          8 years ago

          No where near??? come on man please know something next time

          Reply
        • Lanidrac

          8 years ago

          WAR doesn’t include pitch framing, plus using WAR to judge defense-first players in general isn’t very accurate, since there still aren’t any really good defensive metrics to use in it.

          Reply
        • baines03

          8 years ago

          You’re right about WAR but WARP does take into account framing and while it definitely improves Molina’s standing he’s still not Hall-worthy. Still has time though…

          Reply
    • phillies012tg

      8 years ago

      I think it’s going to take a lot year or two but in my mind he’s a Hall of fame catcher

      Reply
  10. coachbrad

    8 years ago

    It’s for the right length of time and the numbers won’t hurt the franchise, but that’s a huge amount of money to give to someone who projects to be average or worse on both sides of the ball.

    5
    Reply
    • Lanidrac

      8 years ago

      Since when? Despite his age, he’s still well above-average on both sides of the ball, and he’ll likely be average at worst defensively by the end of the deal.

      Reply
  11. moe 3

    8 years ago

    The cardinals can afford it and if anybody is worth that much $ Molina is He is pitching coach , manager ,big brother and one of the biggest fan favorites of all time

    2
    Reply
  12. gemrookie

    8 years ago

    So, he gets more than the 1 year/$15 mil. option they coulda given Molina next year at 35? No, let’s pay him $17 mil. when he’s 38 and not behind the plate! I understand why the Yankees had to give Jeter the respect of overpaying him the last few years of his career for services rendered. But sorry, Molina ain’t no Jeter. Bottom line!

    3
    Reply
    • joshb600

      8 years ago

      It was a mutual option. Not a club option.

      2
      Reply
    • callmemabry

      8 years ago

      For the Cardinals franchise, Molina is very much like Jeter.

      3
      Reply
    • STLCards33

      8 years ago

      He’s our jeter for sure. Sorry man but you’re wrong

      2
      Reply
    • Wainofan

      8 years ago

      To the Cardinals he is exactly Derek Jeter. If cards had captains, he’d have been ours for 10 years and running…

      2
      Reply
      • Lanidrac

        8 years ago

        6 years and running, as it would’ve been Pujols before then.

        1
        Reply
        • astrostl

          8 years ago

          Pujols was clearly the biggest star on the team, but the “captain” was always Yadi during their shared era.

          Reply
    • Michael Macaulay-Birks

      8 years ago

      The only thing comparable in that statement is the money, Molina has been a top three catcher his entire career, there was never a point in Derek Jeter’s career that he was the best shortstop in the league, hell he wasn’t even the best shortstop on his team in the early 2000’s’s

      Reply
      • chesteraarthur

        8 years ago

        This is just blatantly false You know you can look these things up, right? fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=7007&posit…

        here are the rest of the catchers from 2006 fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=bat�…

        2
        Reply
        • coachbrad

          8 years ago

          On that list he’s barely a top three Molina.

          1
          Reply
        • JFactor

          8 years ago

          Mauer has caught half the innings as Yadi, and only R Martin and McCann are in the same vicinity in innings caught.

          Reply
  13. gemrookie

    8 years ago

    And now, Carson Kelly is assured of not being the next Sanchez.

    1
    Reply
    • chesteraarthur

      8 years ago

      That was already assured

      5
      Reply
    • joshb600

      8 years ago

      “The next Sanchez”….. Lol the guys got like half a year of MLB service time lol.

      3
      Reply
  14. soxx44

    8 years ago

    Maybe Jon Heyman is on to something when he mentions the Cardinals as sleepers for Jose Quintana. Now that Yadier Molina is extended, Carson Kelly could be part of a package going to the White Sox.

    A package of Kelly, Delvin Perez, Harrison Bader and Dakota Hudson might interest Rick Hahn. .

    Reply
    • Outlaws12

      8 years ago

      Kelly. Perez, and Darth Bader. No chance

      Reply
    • STLCards33

      8 years ago

      God no.

      Reply
    • Whyamihere

      8 years ago

      That seems pretty light compared to the Tucker/Martes/Musgrove package they wanted.

      2
      Reply
      • Priggs89

        8 years ago

        It is. But I can see Kelly holding much more trade value than his prospect rankings suggest (although I think he’s overhyped on MLB.com). I know the Sox still believe Collins can develop into a full-time catcher, but I’m sure they’d love to have another highly touted option (especially one that’s great on D, since Collins’ bat looks like it can play at DH or 1B if needed).

        Reply
    • teufelshunde4

      8 years ago

      Please lay off the bath salts

      1
      Reply
  15. redsfanman

    8 years ago

    A ton of money locked up in an aging player, blocking a highly regarded and inexpensive replacement in Carson Kelly? As someone who dislikes the Cardinals I’m thrilled. The deal does pay Molina back for the years he was underpaid, but I thought the point of the deal was the next three years. They’re paying him for what he was, rather than what he likely will be.

    If only they could use that money to address a need, instead they’ll need to trade Carson Kelly for whatever that need is.

    7
    Reply
    • conan

      8 years ago

      At least they’ll be paying someone who’s on the roster. How much are the Reds paying Phillips to play for Atlanta?

      1
      Reply
    • themed1

      8 years ago

      How much are the cubs paying Heyward? Yadi sure fire first ballot Hall of Famer! Heyward sure fire albatross! Who gets how much?

      Reply
      • jdgoat

        8 years ago

        He’s not going to ba a first ballot hall of gamer lol. Maybe in his fifth year, but definitely not first

        1
        Reply
        • Wainofan

          8 years ago

          Who cares when, fact is hes HOF and entire career as Redbird. Very rare that happens anymore.

          Reply
  16. gobsteiner

    8 years ago

    Um, what planet are you from?? Posey is far and away the best catcher in the game on both defense and offense, and it’s not even close

    5
    Reply
    • Priggs89

      8 years ago

      While I’d personally take Posey #1 in a catcher draft, he is not “far and away” the best catcher in the game on both defense and offense.

      Reply
    • callmemabry

      8 years ago

      I’m a Cards fan, but agree. Although this was not always true on defense, it is now.

      1
      Reply
  17. Priggs89

    8 years ago

    Good for him

    Reply
  18. gobsteiner

    8 years ago

    What are you on. Posey is the best on both offense and defense and it’s not close

    5
    Reply
  19. callmemabry

    8 years ago

    This seems like a sentimental sign rather than a good business deal for the Cards. Unusual move for them. But, as a fan, it would have pained me to see Yadi leave.

    5
    Reply
  20. gobsteiner

    8 years ago

    Um, are you high? Posey is the best on both defense and offense and it’s not close

    3
    Reply
    • callmemabry

      8 years ago

      Yeah we heard you the first two times.

      Reply
    • Outlaws12

      8 years ago

      Gobsteiner is stoned

      Reply
    • Priggs89

      8 years ago

      If that were the case, I would assume both his offensive and defensive statistics would blow everyone else’s out of the water… They don’t.

      While I’ll happily admit that defensive statistics are far from perfect, if he were THAT much better than everyone else like you claim, I’d be willing to bet the stats would show it, no matter how flawed they may be. Again, they don’t.

      As I said before, I would take him as my catcher any day, but to be considered “far and away the best,” you need to be putting up some ridiculous numbers compared to your peers. While he’s at or near the top every year offensively and defensively, he’s not demolishing everybody in sight.

      Reply
  21. TradeAcuna

    8 years ago

    Just add this to the list as to why the Cards will be a bad team the next 3-4 years!

    3
    Reply
    • themed1

      8 years ago

      Haven’t been a bad team for the last 30 years. Add that to your list.

      2
      Reply
      • chesteraarthur

        8 years ago

        Well that’s just a lie.
        stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/stl/history/year_by_year…

        4
        Reply
      • Lanidrac

        8 years ago

        They’ve had a great run, but 30 years, no. The 1990 season alone blows your claim out of the water.

        2
        Reply
        • Wainofan

          8 years ago

          Perhaps, but I’d take our 30 years over just about any other teams, save the Yankees. How many times did the Cubs finish last place in past 30? Cards are 0. Cards have been competitive and fighting for playoff spot till the end every year for past 30 years except a handful. Past 20 we’ve been even better. I love how the Cubs win one time and suddenly that erases the history of failures they’ve had and years of success birds have had. Whatever.

          Reply
        • themed1

          8 years ago

          Ok the last 25 years. Any other organizations come close to year in year out continued success. They have contended every year.

          Reply
        • chesteraarthur

          8 years ago

          not the argument that was made.

          1
          Reply
        • chesteraarthur

          8 years ago

          So you are saying that 62 and 53 wins are a success?

          2
          Reply
        • hojostache

          8 years ago

          Sure…in the NBA.

          1
          Reply
        • JFactor

          8 years ago

          Holy cow, did you just cite the two strike shortened season win totals? That year the cards won 53, the Cubs won 49.

          The cards have been great for about 20 years steady, and even better for a solid 100 years running. A Cubs fan should know better than to enter a historical argument with a Cards fan, it won’t bode well.

          Reply
  22. SupremeZeus

    8 years ago

    Nice catnip for the nostalgic redbird fans. Taking emotion out and projecting forward, don’t think he will produce anywhere near $55M-$65M worth of value during the k. I expect him to hit the DL multiple times going forward. Father time is undefeated.

    5
    Reply
    • hojostache

      8 years ago

      I agree 100%. That said, I agree with whomever mentioned Jeter because Molina is one of the biggest names for their org and he should be able to finish his career on his terms. It’s an overpay, but if I were a Cards fan I’d FAAAAR overpay Molina a bit than make an overpay to some random FA who has never played for my team. As for Kelley…that’s tough. If Molina is on board with mentoring, that’s a hell of a handoff to have for Kelley.

      Reply
  23. usafcop

    8 years ago

    18 million per year for 35 year old catcher and we wonder why their is a deficit….their are homeless camps everywhere and theft and looting…..we are 10 years away from the world looking like “the book of Eli” or “the road”…..and we have a catcher way past his prime signing for 18 million per year…..just wow

    1
    Reply
    • EndinStealth

      8 years ago

      Just what the thread needed a conspiracy nut.

      Reply
  24. usafcop

    8 years ago

    Why there is a deficit*

    Reply
  25. redbeard

    8 years ago

    From strictly an on field perspective, the odds of him living up to the dollar figure is slim. I think he can still be an above average catcher for the next three years. However, I believe this is also a PR move by ownership/management. Now that there cannot be “personal services” added as part of the contract like Pujols received. They may have felt obligated to just pay more. He will be this generations Ozzie, and may very well end up as the next Cardinal to have a statue in front of the stadium. It looks like this will make sure he will forever be known as a Cardinal only.

    2
    Reply
    • Wainofan

      8 years ago

      Yes there will definitely be a statue and retire his # and be Cards HOF and be in Cooperstown

      Reply
    • Lanidrac

      8 years ago

      Ozzie was also overpaid to stay in St. Louis for the twilight years of his career. He had one more great year (1993) after signing his massive deal before fading into the sunset over the last three years of his career (and being platooned his final year), and the same thing could very well happen with Yadi.

      Was it worth it, though? Most fans would say, “yes.”

      Reply
      • Polish Hammer

        8 years ago

        Ozzie was special at that time because he was making acrobatic plays, the same type of plays we now see on the nightly hilites all over baseball. Overpaid and overrated IMO.

        1
        Reply
  26. southi

    8 years ago

    Carson Kelly just became a very nice potential trade chip for the Cardinals.

    Reply
  27. Wainofan

    8 years ago

    It would have been far worse for FO if yadi would’ve went elsewhere than their “overpay” and backlash from fans would’ve been huge. It’s rare and very cool as fan to have player finish entire career with same team. I wonder who on the Cubs will be able to do that? Bryant? Maybe but will cost a kings ransom when time comes. Who else? Baez? Schwarber? Doubt it.

    Reply
    • themed1

      8 years ago

      Bryant I doubt. The cubs already screwed him out of a year of free agent eligibility. Sure he won’t forget that.

      Reply
      • Mikel Grady

        8 years ago

        Cubs just gave him a bonus they didnt have to give him. He makes extra everytime they win World Series as well

        1
        Reply
        • themed1

          8 years ago

          Uh they average one World Series win once every 100 years. Hope he isn’t planning on that bonus anytime soon. HEHEHE

          Reply
        • Mikel Grady

          8 years ago

          With kris Bryant they average one World Series every other year. Hehehe

          2
          Reply
    • partylikeits2005

      8 years ago

      While the odds say probably no one, the Cubs could keep anyone they want for however long they want right now. That’s not a team that’s going to be financially strapped anytime soon – the money will be there for Bryant when the time comes.

      1
      Reply
      • stl_cards16 2

        8 years ago

        This is simply not true. While I do believe they will extend Bryant, they’re not going to be able to pay everyone. This is a business and the Cubs will have a budget just like every other team.

        Reply
  28. stljeffries

    8 years ago

    No way!! Cards are very high on those guys.

    Reply
  29. T_Ryan

    8 years ago

    Yadi will be a manager one day and hopefully for the cards. He is a manager on the field as well as a pitching coach. The money is worth it.

    1
    Reply
    • EndinStealth

      8 years ago

      He’s already a better manager than Matheny.

      1
      Reply
  30. rrieders

    8 years ago

    There are certain players who provide value in ways that an all-inclusive metric like WAR can never hope to quantify and, as a result, you’re best just ignoring the contract and enjoying a player’s greatness.

    Yadier Molina is one of them.

    Reply
  31. bfolls

    8 years ago

    Claiming there are other overpaid players doesn’t mean this deal makes sense

    5
    Reply
  32. Lanidrac

    8 years ago

    Yadi doesn’t actually need to hit home runs to be an above-average hitter. Did you miss that .360 OBP he posted last year? His mediocre walk rate is balanced by his high batting averages and low K rate (personally, I’d rather have a guy like that than someone who walks a lot but hits for a mediocre average, as hits are better than walks most of the time). Meanwhile, all the doubles he hits keep his slugging rates from falling too far.

    Reply
    • teufelshunde4

      8 years ago

      Just stop… lol

      1
      Reply
    • jdgoat

      8 years ago

      Depends on the player. Yadi is actually a guy who shows having a high average doesn’t make you an amazing batter. Its easily the most overrated stat in the game

      1
      Reply
  33. usafcop

    8 years ago

    At the age he will be playing during this ludicrous contract….and the skills he has left they should have just went with Kelly at league minimum as he will put up similar numbers if not this year then next year as Molina is done being a star catcher….plus they save 18 million….all these guys are overpaid….

    Reply
  34. Dookie Howser, MD

    8 years ago

    Fangraphs did a great article yesterday on aging catchers and how the age drop off was dramatically skewed during the PED era. Since then it is levelled off similar to other positions. Worth a read if anybody is interested

    fangraphs.com/blogs/is-the-clock-running-out-on-ya…

    1
    Reply
    • teufelshunde4

      8 years ago

      One thing Mo,in a has going for him is that 2 brothers played well into their late 30s. Yadi’s injuries have been to thumb, not a knee or back or throwing arm. Yadi’s conditioning has improved as he has aged. 34yr Yadi is slimmer then 29 yr old Yadi. Will help with knee & back wear.
      Father time will win, but we don’t know when.

      Reply
    • teufelshunde4

      8 years ago

      One thing Molina has going for him is that 2 brothers played well into their late 30s. Yadi’s injuries have been to thumb, not a knee or back or throwing arm. Yadi’s conditioning has improved as he has aged. 34yr Yadi is slimmer then 29 yr old Yadi. Will help with knee & back wear.
      Father time will win, but we don’t know when.

      Reply
      • Polish Hammer

        8 years ago

        And those two brothers were lazy slobs, especially Jose, who would never have been seen leaving a gym or caught working out.

        1
        Reply
  35. Cardinals17

    8 years ago

    Come on Yadi!!! Prove these skeptics wrong!!! Grab your gold gloves. These skeptic people have no clue how thumb ligaments surgery affects griping a bat or a ball or even throwing and catching!!! I’ve had it in my throwing hand before!!! I have no idea how well he did recovering. However, once the successful surgery is properly rehabbed, you hand is stronger than before!! Your wrist don’t lock when you’re throwing or hitting when the thumbs heal!! Therefore, to all of you…..”What has Yadi done for us lately people”….. I think you’ll eat your words. And remember, Kelly is just a light hitting PROSPECT right now. Yadi is proven, and the Cardinals pitching staff has complete confidence in his pitch calling !!! He studies and knows the opposing hitters weakness and what to throw to help get them out. That mental aspect WON’T SLIP during this new contract!!!!!

    Reply
    • coachbrad

      8 years ago

      !!! doesn’t make your argument stronger.

      2
      Reply
      • chesteraarthur

        8 years ago

        I wish i could give this comment more than a single ^

        1
        Reply
  36. Cardinals17

    8 years ago

    The Cardinals certainly have more trading power now that they extended Yadi!!!!!

    Reply
  37. Herc33

    8 years ago

    I love Yadi and I’m glad he got paid, but this is a classic example of a team paying for past performance instead of paying for future performance. He’s probably good for 2 WAR this year and his best days are behind him. I have to imagine its going to hurt when they’re paying him ~$20 mil in his age 38 season.

    1
    Reply
  38. fredhuebner

    8 years ago

    “class” organizations don’t hack other teams data bases and CHEAT.

    2
    Reply
    • EndinStealth

      8 years ago

      Organizations don’t, individuals do.

      Reply
    • callmemabry

      8 years ago

      Leave the Kremlin alone

      1
      Reply
  39. bronyaur

    8 years ago

    Molina has been and is a very good player. HoF? Hardly – the numbers of any type simply do not support his being among the 16 best catchers to have ever played the game, even with those mythical intangibles that folklore loves to tout, but quants know are thoroughly overweighted.

    Numbers absolutely don’t capture everything, but some are highly indicative and do in fact reflect intangibles. For example, Molina never won an MVP, and his MVP share is 236th of all players all time. This should be a lot higher for someone expected to join the pantheon.

    In general, it seems pretty hard to make the case for him as a HoF offensively. He’s 26th all-time in WAR, and his JAWS ranking is 29th among catchers – hell, even Russell Martin has a higher JAWS than Molina. In fact, not a single similar player as listed on Molina’s BBREF page, either at any given age, through any given age, or across the entire career, is in the HoF. Not. One. His most similar career is Thurman Munson who never got more than 10% of HoF votes except in his first year of eligibility (15.5%), and of course, Munson had the tragic early demise characteristic working in his favor for the voters. His most similar through age 33 is AJ Pierzzynski, and who except the most earnest yet misguided White Sox fan or Michael Barrett hater would try to claim AJ is a HoFer?

    Defensively, Molina 41st all time in defensive WAR for a catcher – again, not that this stat is everything, but it would be a lot higher if he were truly one of the all time greats. He is 70th all time in assists as a catcher, and 184 all time in career caught stealing % for a catcher. It’s just not enough to be with Bench, Carter, I-Rod, Fisk, Piazza, Berra, Dickey and the rest.

    No matter how great of a leader he is, or how good he is at framing pitches, it seems hard for a unbiased, non-Card fan to make the HoF case.

    More to the point here, the Cards are pretty obviously overpaying for Molina vis-a-vis his worth over the next three years, but it might be justified on PR grounds, at least to a degree. No way any other team would come even remotely close to that offer. Cards should have asked him, and maybe did ask him, to establish his worth in the market, and then offered him a tad more. But it’s their money, they can waste it as they see fit.

    kevin

    2
    Reply
    • themed1

      8 years ago

      Molina first ballot Hall if Famer. Book it!

      1
      Reply
      • rocky7

        8 years ago

        Only happens if the only HOF voters all come from St. Louis.
        Read bronyaur’s comment above….very accurate and to the point.

        1
        Reply
        • themed1

          8 years ago

          Molina first ballot Hall of Famer! Glad these haters here have no clue and no say in it!

          1
          Reply
    • rocky7

      8 years ago

      Nice work bronyaur…..well researched, unbiased, and comprehensive.

      2
      Reply
    • callmemabry

      8 years ago

      Good points. Ted Simmons and Thurman Munson got jobbed, imo. Hope the veteran committee gets them. Surprised at how far down the list Campanella is; at how high Mauer is; and that Posey’s WAR/7 isn’t higher (this must still be rising for him).

      Reply
  40. gamemusic3 2

    8 years ago

    lol ego

    contract intended specifically to top Posey

    1
    Reply
  41. MooseMichaels

    8 years ago

    Here’s the deal. Carson isn’t going anywhere. Molina can switch to first and Carp can go back to third.

    Reply
    • stl_cards16 2

      8 years ago

      Yadi doesn’t have the bat to play 1B. Kelly still doesn’t need to be traded, he’s only 22. But Yadi should never be playing 1B.

      1
      Reply
      • timyanks

        8 years ago

        why do corner players in infield and outfield always need a power bat?

        1
        Reply
        • kbarr888

          8 years ago

          Maybe…..Because the “guys in the middle” are typically smaller, faster guys….who often hit for average and steal bases to earn their keep. Also, the corner players generally tend to be less than stellar defensive players (certainly not all of them), and they need to “earn their keep” with the bat.

          1
          Reply
        • chesteraarthur

          8 years ago

          you don’t need a power bat, you need a productive bat to play 1b because it is so low on a defensive spectrum. The idea that corner players need a power bat died like 10 years ago.

          Reply
  42. Polish Hammer

    8 years ago

    Good deal, a win-win.

    Reply
    • themed1

      8 years ago

      Agreed great for St Louis and great for baseball.

      1
      Reply
  43. lesterdnightfly

    8 years ago

    Big overpay. For St. Louis’s FO and ownership, this was uncharacteristically based on sentiment and past success. Must have feared loss of fan support if they didn’t keep this declining “franchise icon”.

    1
    Reply
    • calikid13

      8 years ago

      Agreed.

      1
      Reply
  44. calikid13

    8 years ago

    Terrible extension. If you have the top Catching prospect in the league, you move on. That $20MM/AAV would have been better spent elsewhere.

    2
    Reply
  45. cxcx

    8 years ago

    Carson Kelly is a consensus top 100 prospect, not a consensus top 10 prospect. Andrew Susac, Kevin Plawecki…have been seeing a lot of top 100 catching prospects doing a whole lot of nothing lately.

    2
    Reply
    • chesteraarthur

      8 years ago

      He’s not even the best catcher unless you listen to mlb.com for some reason. On pretty much every other site and by average ranking mejia and/or alfaro are rated as better catching prospects.

      2
      Reply
  46. cxcx

    8 years ago

    Something no one has mentioned- I bet he used Mike Leake’s contract as as much of a baseline as Posey’s. Like, “How do you expect me to sign on to stay here for less money than Mike Leake?” Not something there’s really a retort for…

    Reply
  47. Tigersin2020

    8 years ago

    The Molina Empire strikes gold

    Reply
  48. timyanks

    8 years ago

    or just stereotyped

    Reply
  49. Mr Pike

    8 years ago

    The hypocrisy here is mind blowing. Consider all the scorn heaped on the Tigers for signing Victor Martinez through age 39 at $17M per year. And, he was a DH, first baseman, catcher coming off an MVP year. Cardinals sign a catcher through age 38 and yeah, that’s fine. I just want some consistency here. Personally, I don’t have a problem with either signing.

    Reply
  50. JFactor

    8 years ago

    Some information regarding Molina

    Chester has shared the fWAR rankings, which I think we can all agree that Yadier isn’t the same hitter that Posey and Mauer are/were.

    He is similar offensively to Martin, who is also the most comparable to Molina defensively, though he is well short there.

    WAR really undervalues catchers, we know that. The only real defensive value it measures is caught stealing rates and assists. We know there is a ton more to catching than that. So here are some additional defensive numbers for Molina that you may not know.

    Career pickoffs
    Molina – 55
    Martin – 22
    Mauer – 2
    Posey – 5

    Since 2004, Molina has had a grand total of 724 stolen base attempts against him in 13,254 innings, or one attempt every 18.3 innings.

    McCann has had 1059 attempts against him in 11,508 innings. One every 10.9 innings.

    Posey has had 549 attempts against and caught 5976 innings (yes, less than half as many innings as Molina). Which is one attempt every 10.9 innings.

    Martin has had 1043 stolen base attempts against, in 11,644 innings. Which is one every 11.1 innings.

    Mauer has had 545 stolen base attempts in 7883 innings. Which is one every 14.5 innings played.

    Nobody is more afraid to run on a catcher than they are to run on Molina. No other catcher in baseball even comes close to the suppression of the running game.

    Mauer, who is leading in the WAR category, hasn’t been a catcher for years, and has played half as many innings as Molina there. He is ahead by 12-15 WAR depending which measure you want to value. But let’s not pretend he has been doing all of his production as a catcher. 56% of the innings he has been involved in on the field (includes time as DH) has been at the catcher position. But he’s less than 50% ahead in total WAR.

    cERA vs backups. This one took awhile to calculate because I had to manually calculate it.

    Molina – 3.61
    Backups – 4.21
    Difference +0.60

    Martin – 3.67
    Backups – 3.65
    Difference -0.02

    Mauer – 4.05
    Backups – 4.48
    Difference – +.43

    Posey – 3.50
    Backups – 3.69
    Difference – +0.19

    Assists to other bases (doesn’t include dropped third strikes)
    Molina – 223 – One every 59.43 innings (also the most assists to second and third base)
    Martin – 197 – One every 59.11 innings
    Mauer – 55 (has never thrown a player out at second or third for an assist) – One every 143.33 innings
    Posey – 98 – One every 60.99 innings

    This is why Molina has been the greatest catcher in baseball since Pudge.

    If you just want to value fWAR, and pretend like there isn’t more to catching than hitting and throwing out base runners, be my guest.

    And I didn’t get into frame rates, because that’s even more time than I feel like spending on this.

    Reply

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