The Pirates have announced matching, four-year extensions for both GM Neal Huntington and manager Clint Hurdle. Both are now under contract through the 2021 season; salary terms are unreported.
Hurdle’s deal was reported yesterday, though Huntington’s situation remained unclear. As we covered at the time, both of these key organizational figures were entering an offseason of uncertainty, with the Bucs possessing team options for the 2018 campaign.
Rather than simply taking the one year already contemplated in their prior contracts, Pirates president Frank Coonelly decided to reward both Huntington and Hurdle with yet greater commitments, calling each “selfless leaders who have made us a far stronger organization, both on and off the field.” Both had previously worked for one or three-year terms.
Some fans will find some cause for consternation in the timing of the move. After all, the Bucs are again failing to play to expectations after a 2013-15 run of success that reinvigorated hopes and fan interest. And the club has drawn fairly persistent accusations of being unwilling to spend when necessary. Most recently, hackles raised with the club’s curious move at the end of August to dump the salary of quality reliever Juan Nicasio. (At least as public perceptions go, it probably doesn’t help that Nicasio was claimed by the cross-state-rival Phillies, who had even less reason to pay his salary at this stage of the year.)
Still, it’s hard not to credit the work of the Huntington-Hurdle duo. The former came over from the Indians organization in advance of the 2008 season; while it took some time, and awaited the arrival of Hurdle a few years later, the club finally broke its long-running losing streak. Utilizing creative methods worthy of a book, Huntington’s front office — with Hurdle chipping in from the clubhouse and dugout — managed to field a roster that won 280 and lost 206 games from 2013 through 2015.
While those teams never advanced in the postseason, and things haven’t gone as well since, that doesn’t necessarily fall entirely on the shoulders of the GM and manager. The team’s exciting trio of outfielders was seen as perhaps the game’s best entering 2016; for a variety of reasons, they’ve combined to put up just 12 WAR over the last two years. Unlike some other organizations that have emerged in recent seasons, too, the Bucs have continued to carry less than $100MM in Opening Day payroll.
While the team has just not quite gotten enough from a variety of spots on the roster, Huntington has done well in acquiring and re-signing Ivan Nova, getting Felipe Rivero for pending free agent Mark Melancon, and acquiring and then extending the solid David Freese (who has been especially important with the unexpected loss of Jung Ho Kang). Every recent move hasn’t been a winner — the signings of Daniel Hudson and Ryan Vogelsong, for example — though perhaps the most strident complaints have been about opportunities that may have been missed owing mostly to payroll constraints.
All told, the current roster still holds plenty of talented players on appealing contracts. But some of the organization’s biggest stars — McCutchen and Gerrit Cole, in particular — are nearing free-agent eligibility, posing major questions (fraught with complicated baseball and public relations elements) to the front office and ownership group. How the Bucs will navigate the potentially turbulent waters remains to be seen, but the helmsmen will remain the same — albeit now with significant contractual protection to weather any short-term disappointments.
Photo courtesy of USA Today Sports Images.
I’m good with Clint. I don’t think he always makes the best tactical decisions but the players seem to respond well to the message at least.
As for Neal, yuck. I was a big supporter early when he was trying to rebuild from the bottom up but the last few years have been pretty disappointing. I’d think that there’s enough other people out there with the ability to replace him that locking in to four more years seems unnecessary.
I don’t see how you can’t like NH. Hes done wonderful considering his resources. He hasn’t really made a terrible trade either. If anything, I think hes done well
Giving up some decent prospects just to get rid of liriano. Letting nicasio go for literally nothing. Signing nova will probably lucky go down as a bad move also
Harold Ramirez and Reese McGuire are not good prospects. McGuire MIGHT be able to serve as a backup, but will never live up to being a top 10 pick. Ramirez has a .678 OPS this year with bad defense.
Huntington’s worst move was not trading Tony Watson in 2016.
Could have been that no one was really offering much for Tony in 2016, Was probably hoping Tony would return to form in 2017 and he could get something for him. Unfortunately, Tony was no better.
I agree with you for the Liriano trade. Neither McGuire not Ramirez are great prospects and NH had to give up something to get something at all from Toronto and for Toronto to take the salary.
@ tharrieo820—Nova was a good deal. He is running out of gas but hopefully this year will help him for next. 2 more innings and he will be over his career high in IP.
You forget about the Melancon for Rivero and Hearn deal from just 1 year ago? That was an outstanding deal.
Both those prospects flopped, losing liriano caused them to resign Nova and Freese, which arent bad moves, and Nicasio did nothing for the Pirates.
Even if the prospects do flop, they still had value and they got nothing in return that was good
Only had a 2.89 ERA dumbass
False. While trading away a pending FA in Walker wasn’t a bad idea, the return was. In my book, that’s a terrible trade.
A bad trade and a trade that didnt work out arent the same thing.
What level of return should a team get for an over 30 player with a history of back issues that is one year away from free agency?
What is that player worth?
Niese actually was not a bad return for Walker but Niese’s knee injury made him look far worse. After a couple of rough outings to start the season he did well untill his knee went in June against the Mets. He was awful after that. Mets prolly wish they had not made the deal in hindsight either. Paid Walker a ton of money to miss a bunch of playing time.
The Mets thought it was worth $17..2 million guaranteed. The Milwaukee Brewers thought he was/is worth $3 million for just a month and a half.
Pitchers previous 4 yrs before Pirates
Liriano 34-45 4.85era
Burnett 52-45 4.59 era
Volquez 29-33 4.99era
Happ 36-50 4.73era
Nova 36-33 4.63era
Niese 39-38 3.65era.
He had a better run than all those guys coming into Pittsburgh. There was no reason to expect a he wouldn’t work out here
The only good trades were joel hanrahan for Melancon. And then when melancon was a free agent trading him for rivero. Then when Rivero is almost a free agent they will trade him too. Its a never ending process that reflects in how bad their ownership is
Are you kidding? You obviously haven’t been paying attention to what he’s done!
he’ll be fired by late 2019 or after the season.
Well……………at least I know now the pirates will suck for the next 4 years.
The yinzer tears are especially salty today.
If they could do math, they’d realize a bad GM can’t win 98 games with an owner as bad as they claim Nutting to be (and might well actually be). Can’t happen. But the media here has a fact free vendetta against the front office.
“Huntingdon can’t draft or develop” they are told and repeat like parrots. I guess they forgot Bell, Taillon, Frazier, Moroff, Luplow, Williams, Kuhl, Diaz, Osuna and Neverauskaus. Glasnow is having the best season in IL history. Meadows is still a top 25 prospect despite his injuries. Keller is a top 20 SP prospect and Newman and Tucker are top 100 SS prospects. But those are just facts and shouldn’t interfere with the narrative…
Luckily a very good GM wasn’t run out of town by the clueless pitchfork wielders.
Nutting likes to talk publicly – and loudly – about how Pittsburgh is a small market.
Are Nutting’s mansions small? Nutting’s yachts? Nutting’s private jet?
Questioned the corporate – Fake News –
media never ask.
I’m glad we kept both of them, but I need to see that next step, particularly from Huntington. Either pay market rate for a player–whether that’s a free agent like Moustakas or resign Cutch OR make a prospect based trade for a proven major leaguer. One of those things needs to change if the Pirates are truly going to contend.
He is a terrible GM
One season with 98 wins and did nothing in the playoffs. …………………….
Here’s a trophy.
Are you serious? Besides Bell and Taillon what have any of those players done. Trevor Williams was acquired in a trade with the Marlins. Time and again the Dodgers bring guys up and they are awesome. The Pirates bring up a player and more times than not he is average. Their player development is terrible! It’s going to be the same song and dance from Huntington, “Wait till next year”.
Sooooo all of the other guys are bums? All of the other guys are contributing. Kuhl pitching very well, Frazier was playing very well till the injury. Luplow and Moroff playing very well now that they are playing regularly. Osuna plays well when he is in the lineup regularly.
All average players. They need better results from their picks! Average players get you average seasons. You’re using a very small sample size for the players you’re saying are doing very well.
Once again Pirate management shows that it values profits over winning.
While Huntington has had some good moves, overall his performance reeks of looking to save a dollar over winning, of stringing together mis-information bordering on outright lying and for the past couple of years, falling in love with himself.
Sad day in Pirateland.
Huntington has nothing to do with “saving a dollar over winning”. That all has to do with ownership not reinvesting in the team like they should and the reason why you see salary dumping moves during the season.
If the local media – TV and web – covered the mansions, yachts and private jet of the Pirates owner Nutting the payroll wouldn’t be so small every year.
I sincerely want to understand this mentality…
Nutting made most of his money from ski resorts and newpapers.
Do you feel like his mansion, yacht and jet entitle you to free ski rentals or lift passes or Sunday papers?
Nutting withdrawals more money from the Pirates every year than any MLB superstar has ever made.
What Nutting takes home makes Mike Trout’s largest pay day look small.
What has Nutting ever done to earn one dollar of Pirates fans money?
Newsflash- Business owners almost always make more money than the people they employ.
The person who runs Ford has probably never riveted a single door to an SUV but they make a lot more than the people who do.
The Cuban or Venezuelan league might be for you.
I just know what I read by the writers who’s job it is to dig out the truth.
“There’s no such thing as a small-market team
Just because an owner doesn’t want to spend more money doesn’t mean they can’t.”
By Henry Druschel on December 13, 2016 9:00 am
Its the ownership that puts the restrictions on neil. That forces him to make the cheap moves. Once in a while you can hit big like their melancon and joel hanrahan moves, but thats not how you build a team. Pirates need a new owner.
The Pirates need to play in a league with a salary cap.
Think the Dodgers will agree to that?
No and neither would the Yankees , Red Sox , Nationals, Giants or any other team.
any other team that spends like those teams that is
Exactly. They don’t want to compete with all the other teams as NFL and NHL teams do, only the top tier of 8 or so teams with giant revenue bases.
The rest of the teams are there to be long shots and window dressing.
The Dodgers don’t have to sell a single ticket to meet their MLB record payroll, their local TV money alone pays for it, the rest (tickets, concessions, parking, national TV) is all profit.
The Pirates local TV deal pays for Cutch and Jaso.
Anyone who compares the Pirates to the Penguins or Steelers is either dishonest or uninformed. MLB’s system is built to keep the big market teams in permanent contention while small market teams pop in and out with short windows of opportunity.
lol
The downward spiral continues
I’m usually too busy trying to offer some facts to counter the local media’s bizarre (though some of it is rational, Madden is a direct competitor to the Pirates radio broadcasts and their flagship station, for example) attacks on the Pirates front office that I don’t usually get around to offering my own (fact based) criticisms….
1) They rely too heavily on their sabremetricians. Moving Cutch to the 2 hole, moving the OF in in 2016, etc. were all questionable moves at the time that ended up failing. They need to use the numbers, not trust them blindly.
2) They baby the players too much. Too many “scheduled days off” for the veterans (they don’t need to borrow the Golden State model for baseball) and they don’t challenge the young players enough.
3) Too often they make baseball moves to appease the fans or media. By every metric they had previously established for a starter to graduate from AAA, Glasnow was not ready, but they brought him up to quiet the “bridge year” complaints. They were going to trade Nicasio before July 31 but held off while in contention to avoid the criticism they got even worse after they dropped out of contention.
But, instead, most of the criticism that Huntingdon and Co. get is for the thing they are best at, player acquisition. Even then, they just parrot the criticism of a few moves (like the Liriano trade) that were actually good/great moves that you’d do again.
There are players that Huntingdon should be criticized for signing that were questionable to obviously bad moves at the time, like Daniel Hudson and Ryan Vogelsong (respectively) but most of the critics don’t know enough about baseball to know which moves where the actual bad ones. He’s had some duds like any GM.
But mostly he’s built something out of nothing working for one of the most frugal owners in sports. The same criticisms of the Liriano deal (wrongly) and the Nicasio deal (rightly) were also leveled against the best trade in recent MLB history, two months of Melancon for 5 years of Felipe Rivero and 6 years of Taylor Hearn (a 100 mph lefty starter who has moved up prospect lists since the trade), for example.
1) PNC Park
2) Neal Huntingdon and Ray Searage (tie)
3) Rene Gayo
Those are the Pirates most valuable assets and whatever is next on the list isn’t even close.
The media never asks whether owner Nutting’s mansions, yachts and private jet is as small as he claims the Pittsburgh market is?
Explain why he should take money out of his own pocket that he made from other businesses instead of relying on the revenue that the fans themselves generate.
Explain why you are entitled to baseball welfare.
I’m very interested to hear the answer.
How many millions did Nutting remove from the neck of Pirates fans with a syringe last year, the year before, the year before that etc?
$80 million? Each year.
When A-Rod signed that contract 17yrs ago everyone freaked. Well, I see what A-Rod did to earn that money. I see what Mike Trout is doing to earn that money.
What does Nutting do to take home a sum every year that dwarfs the largest salary every paid to an MLB superstar?
$0 were removed with a syringe. People willingly bought tickets and beer and hot dogs.
And if you are implying that the Pirates made an $80 million profit that’s both untrue and slightly absurd.
Do you demand free breadsticks if Pizza Hut makes a profit? If so, does it work? Let me know, I’ve never thought to do that.
Is there any other business that you demand lose money or forego profit in exchange for you not calling them “cheap” or “evil”? Or just this one baseball team?
“Pirates made an $80 million profit that’s both untrue and slightly absurd.”
Prove it.
OK, I’ll prove it…
What’s your source? You made the statement. Where did you get that figure?
And Madden’s colon doesn’t count.
I’ll wait.
“OK, I’ll prove it…”
The whole world of MLB fandom has been eagerly awaiting this proof for all their lives.
What do the owners have to hide?
Yes, I just proved it.
If you could ACTUALLY BACK UP THE STATEMENT YOU YOURSELF MADE, you would have just done so.
I’ll still wait…
Where did you get that figure?
Did Mark Madden hand you a cracker and tell you that? Did you imagine it in an angry fit of delusion and jealousy?
Where did you get that figure that you quoted so authoritatively as fact?
In debates, the burden of proof is always the responsibility of those affirming a statement, such as you did, and not the task of those denying the statement.
Owner: Nutting Family
Championships: 5
Price Paid: $92 M
Year Purchased: 1996
Revenue: $265 M
Operating Income: $51 M
Debt/Value: 8%
Player Expenses: $115 M
Gate Receipts: $70 M
Wins-to-player cost ratio: 118
Revenue per Fan: $70
Championships should be a big fat ZERO.
He only owns those so called championships due to the rich history he paid for.
No one is demanding they lose money. Just spend enough to put a team on the field that has a chance to win the World Series. Don’t compare them to the Indians or Royals because those small markets brought in the players at the trade deadline to put them in the World Series. Nutting and Huntington will never do that because they’re too afraid going for it all will ruin next year. So instead bring in guys like Vogelsong and Gosslin.
Fact………….Bell trolls is either on the pirates payroll or in fact Huntington or Nutting’s wife or kid.
All those assets are merely fluff. The hard fact is that the Pirates are fighting for last place with the Reds in the weakest division in the NL this year.
The players deserve better.
The City deserves better.
The fans deserve better.
This fan agrees with the previous comment… “Pirates need a new owner”.
Perhaps a certain hockey player/now owner who’s proven that he can win consistently both on and off the field… I say, maybe he would consider buying our beloved Bucs.
The vast majority of the players have underperformed this year.
The city is an inanimate object.
And the fans deserve less than this. Much less, actually.
Please explain why the most ignorant and fair weather fans who pay some of the lowest prices in the league “DESERVE” better. Serious question. I’d love to hear an answer.
“I spent $21.50 for my ticket and bought 6 beers. Nutting OWES ME a World Series title.” – Most yinzers
You’re logic is a bit faulty, to say the least, and you’re ignoring the most important component to the entire argument. The line has been drawn between two sides… those who support the owner and GM and those who don’t. Supporters argue from a business perspective; players and fans are assets to make more money. Opponents argue from the humanity perspective. How can anyone expect players to play to their fullest potential when it’s clear to all that the owner and GM don’t care about winning, just making money?
The fans are angry because they love their team. They esteem each player highly and feel a sense of identity much like “family”. The fans feel the same betrayal by the owner and GM as the players and we’ll “fight” to defend our family.
We’ll fight with our published opinions, we’ll fight by hurting the owner’s profitability. Did you see the empty stands at last night’s game. That’s not only lost revenue from ticket sales, but over-priced concessions and souvenirs as well.
When the owner and GM shows contempt and disrespect for the players and fans by managing strictly to maximize profits and not attempting to manage to win, he’ll lose both. When he shows a genuine effort to win, he’ll increase his profitability as well.
“How can anyone expect players to play to their fullest potential when it’s clear to all that the owner and GM don’t care about winning, just making money?”
A) Because they are PROFESSIONALS. Purportedly.
B) That they “don’t care about winning” is not clear to all. Some acknowledge the reality that (relative to all but a few of the other 30 teams) their situation makes winning more difficult.
The Dodgers payroll is 3 times the size of the Pirates.
Why? Because Nutting is “cheap” and takes the money to buy ski lifts? OR because the Dodgers have 10-20 times the revenue?
The Dodgers local TV deal pays for their entire payroll and then some. The ticket, parking, concession, national TV money, merchandise, etc. is all bonus money to them. That might be why they have 85 assistant GM’s.
The Pirates local TV deal pays for Cutch and Jaso.
Which of these teams is maximizing profit and which just plays in a small market with a lot less revenue?
Should Pirates’ fans pay what Dodgers’ fans pay for tickets, parking, concessions, etc. to help bridge the difference? Think they’d pay LA prices? They cannot and will not.
“We’ll fight with our published opinions, we’ll fight by hurting the owner’s profitability.”
I think there are a few holes in this “lower his revenue to make him spend more” plan. Might not work out the way you hope. Just FYI.
You should really read Travis Sawchik’s piece at FG yesterday. “The Disconnect in Pittsburgh.”
He explores why the people outside Pittsburgh think the Pirates front office is really good (because they are impartial and see reality) and why the people in Pittsburgh (because they are fed bull flop from most of the local media, though he says it nicer than I do) do not.
But, you are right….the toxic mix of ignorance and entitlement in this town could very well destroy the team’s actual chance to compete.
Have fun with that.
“Because they are PROFESSIONALS”???
Try it sometime, Robert.
May I call you Bob?
Funny…
I don’t even live in your State.
I’m one of those outsiders but I don’t share the attempted redeeming opinion of Mr Sawshank
Huntington is a disciple of Mark Shapiro. While Shapiro was roundly regarded as one of the best small market GMs during his tenure in CLE, the fact is the team did not begin to fully blossom until after he departed. Shapiro & Huntington have many things in common, but the most noteworthy is their unwillingness to make significant acquisitions in season which hinder the chances of their teams making the post season.
Completely agree with this. I am a fan of Huntington’s, but I look at the Royals did to get to their World Series.
The Royals traded top prospect Wil Myers to Tampa for James Shields, who was really just OK in Kansas City. Still, they got to the World Series and also got Wade Davis in that same deal, so it worked out pretty well for them.
The next year, the Royals traded top prospect Brandon Finnegan to the Reds for Johnny Cueto, who struggled for a while in KC but eventually helped them win their first World Series since 1985.
Neither one of those trades killed the Royals prospect-wise. Finnegan is a sparsely used starter (though he is still young and pitched decent in 2016) and Myers isn’t even in Tampa anymore. Even in San Diego, he has only been average. The Royals still have those rings, however.
The Pirates have had opportunities over the years to trade prospects for MLB-caliber players. I remember one year there were rumors abound that they were going to trade Jameson Taillon and Gregory Polanco to Miami for Giancarlo Stanton. No one knows how true that was, but Huntington rarely trades prospects for MLB-caliber players. Weird thing is, he traded two decent prospects (Harold Ramirez and Reese McGuire) to Toronto along with Francisco Liriano, just to get ride of his salary.
The Pirates obviously like keeping prospects so they take advantage of their rookie contracts for as long as possible. Once they hit arbitration, there is little chance of the Pirates resigning them, so trade rumors erupt. Everyone knows it. It’s basically just a way of exploiting cheap (and I use that word very relatively) labor.
It came down to NH and CH or no one. Who in their right mind would want their jobs….In order to get this team back to winning, it’s gonna take dealing McCutchen, Cole, Harrison, and probably Cervelli(bad contract) to get the talent needed to start the rebuild ASAP.
Bell trolls is trolling hard for their Nutting and Huntington.
Must have got paid by bucs money machine to defend them.
Hope one day that is the only fan in the stand.
No, I just like the challenge of trying to explain reality to dimwitted yinzer lemming parrots.
Hate the Pirates and everyone associated with them all you want, but try to do so with the actual facts, if at all possible, instead of just regurgitating the dime store bullflop you are shovel fed by the local media.
So, now I’m reading the same “fans” (aka haters) who have laughed and bragged about the Pirates falling attendance bemoaning the fact that ushers at PNC are getting fewer hours at work…
…as if that is not an ABSURDLY PREDICTABLE RESULT of the attendance drop they enjoy so much.
They literally have no idea how economics work.
I just know what I read by the writers who’s job it is to dig out the truth.
“There’s no such thing as a small-market team
Just because an owner doesn’t want to spend more money doesn’t mean they can’t.”
By Henry Druschel on December 13, 2016 9:00 am
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