The Baseball Writers Association of America on Wednesday elected Chipper Jones, Vladimir Guerrero, Jim Thome and Trevor Hoffman to the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Jones (who appeared on 97.2 percent of ballots) and Thome (89.8 percent) will go into Cooperstown as first-ballot Hall of Famers. Guerrero (92.9 percent) will be enshrined in his second year of eligibility. Hoffman (79.9 percent) was on the ballot for the third time.
Edgar Martinez fell shy of the 75 percent mark needed for enshrinement, receiving a votes on 70.4 percent of ballots Others coming within 20 percent of induction include Mike Mussina (63.5 percent), Roger Clemens (57.4 percent) and Barry Bonds (56.4 percent). Full voting is available at the BBWAA’s website.
There was never much doubt that Jones, 45, would be a first-ballot Hall of Famer. The former No. 1 overall draft pick and 1999 National League MVP was an eight-time All-Star, a two-time Silver Slugger and won a World Series title with the 1995 Braves. One of the best switch-hitters in the history of the sport, Jones hit .303/.401/.529 with 468 home runs, 150 stolen bases, 1619 runs scored and 1623 runs batter in over the life of a brilliant career that spanned nearly two decades.
Remarkably, Jones batted better than .300 and posted on OBP north of .390 from both sides of the plate over the course of his illustrious career. In addition to the extraordinary work he did in the regular season, Jones was an accomplished postseason bat as well, hitting a combined .287/.409/.456 with 13 homers in 417 trips to the plate in the postseason. Both Baseball-Reference and Fangraphs peg Jones’ amazing career at more than 85 wins above replacement.
Thome, 47, heads into Cooperstown as one of the most accomplished sluggers in Major League history. The longtime Indians star retired with 612 homers — then the seventh-most home runs in big league history (though he’s since been passed by another Cooperstown-bound slugger, Albert Pujols, in that regard). Thome never won a league MVP but did make five All-Star teams and take home a Silver Slugger.
An on-base machine, Thome hit .276/.402/.554 and scored 1583 runs against 1699 runs batted in over the course of a career that spanned parts of 22 Major League seasons. He belted another 17 homers and knocked in 37 runs over the course of 267 postseason plate appearances. His career 147 OPS+ ties him with Hall of Famers Willie Stargell, Willie McCovey, Mike Schmidt and the aforementioned Edgar Martinez for the 47th-best mark in MLB history. B-Ref pegged Thome’s career at 72.9 WAR, while Fangraphs credited him with a similarly excellent 69 WAR.
Guerrero, 43 next month, spent parts of 16 seasons in the Majors and batted .318/.379/.553 with 449 home runs, 1328 runs scored, 1496 runs batted in and 181 stolen bases. Guerrero earned American League MVP honors in a 2004 campaign that saw him bat .337/.391/.598 with 39 homers in 680 plate appearances, and he finished third on the AL MVP ballot on two other occasions. Guerrero was named to nine All-Star teams and took home eight Silver Slugger Awards in his career.
Guerrero was uncannily consistent, hitting .300 or better in 13 of his 15 full seasons in the Majors (and batting .290 and .295 in the two in which he came up short). Both OPS+ and wRC+ feel that the only full season he had in the Majors in which his bat was below the league average was his final season in 2011, when he batted .290/.317/.416 as a 36-year-old. He joins Juan Marichal and Pedro Martinez as the third Dominican-born player to be elected to the Hall of Fame.
Hoffman’s appointment to Cooperstown will be the most polarizing among today’s honorees. The 50-year-old is, of course, one of just two players in Major League history to record more than 600 career saves, joining future Hall of Famer Mariano Rivera in that regard. Hoffman’s career came to a close with a 2.87 ERA, 9.4 K/9 and 2.5 BB/9 as well as 601 saves and a 61-75 record through 1089 1/3 innings.
Hoffman’s supporters point to that vaunted save total, his seven All-Star nods and exceptional consistency. Hoffman posted a sub-3.00 ERA in 12 of 14 seasons from 1994-2007, averaging 37 saves per year along the way. His detractors note that he logged nearly 200 fewer innings than Rivera, the man to whom he is most often compared (based on their incredible saves totals) and also pitched 128 fewer postseason innings than Rivera.
There is, of course, no denying that Hoffman had a remarkable career; he averaged better than a strikeout per inning and finished with an ERA+ of 147, turning in an ERA worse than the league average just once in his career — in his 18th and final MLB season. Whether that places him among the all-time greats can be debated ad nauseam, but those whose voices matter most in that discussion (the BBWAA) clearly are of the mind that Hoffman is indeed worthy of being placed in such rarefied air.
Billy Wagner is getting hosed!
I can’t believe Manny and Sheff might not end up in the HOF.
If Bonds and Clemens don’t get in , Manny and Sheffield won’t.
All of them SHOULD get in.
What a dumb HOF we have. The Rock N Roll HOF has more integrity than MLB does. Greenies and out-and-out cocaine enhanced performance in the previous generations and they knew it. Why start caring now, or why not go back and boot out all the admitted users, guys like Babe Ruth 🙂
Also: Bud Selig knew about steroids too, and he’s never tested for them when he could have from day 1 of his reign as Commish, and he’s in the HOF too. What a disgrace.
Edgar, Clemens, Bonds, Mussina, Vizquel, Schilling, Walker, McGriff, Sosa, Kent, Manny, Sheff, Wagner, Rolen, Jones all should be in the HOF. 15 players who are DEFINITELY better than certain players already in the HOF.
+1
More would have got in this year’s if voters could vote for more guys and we had more voters because like in NBA a lot get in every year. David Ortiz,Andy Pettite,Bobby Aberu and so on will get in the future.
None of them should get in and the way it looks none of them ever will.
Cheating was against the rules and the HOF voting instructions say that on the base of 3 criteria they should not get in.
The only way they get in is the same way any fan gets in, buy a ticket.
By the way, Andruw Jones has 0.1 more fWAR than Barry Larkin, in 393 less PAs. Also he has way more than Yount, Snider, Killebrew, Berra, Gwynn, Raines, Boudreau, Piazza, Banks, Stargell, Sandberg, Dawson, the list goes on and on. He gets absolutely no love and almost fell off the ballot. It’s so bizarre how some players like Andruw are viewed differently to “legendary” players that were actually not as valuable as he was.
Why can’t the baseball HOF be consistent? It really should just let in the top 100 fangraphs WAR guys who aren’t in and call it a day. It would mean for a big hall, but its way more infuriating to lock guys out than to let them in.
Replace scott rolen on that list with lee smith and I’m with you but man are these debates fun, reminiscing about great players from the past is a blast
No!
Was Shef ever implicated in PED scandals? I just dont recall.
Right!
That goes to show you that WAR is stupid. I am as big an Andruw Jones fan there is but he was not better than Barry Larkin or Robin Yount but let me stop cause on this site WAR is gospel no matter how flawed it is
They tried to implement testing but for years but the players balked. It pretty much took that debacle on Capital Hill to get testing going. Yes Selig shouldn’t be in if those players are not. The Rock n Roll is a joke beyond jokes. What did Ruth use?
Interesting you use only fWAR for your Andruw Jones debate. He should definitely be considered but he is by no means a slam dunk.
Apt screen name for a someone who’s most likely a hypocrite. Perhaps if you ever cheated, at anything, you should lose your home and your job and forfeit your citizenship, because you broke the law. What are you whining . . . that you always play fair and by the rules? Not if you’ve lived in the U. S. ever, since every American citizen is party to a long history of cheating. But I digress . . .
Cheating happens in just about every game, every sport, and by every individual involved = baseball has a long history of cheating, and many of its most brazen cheaters are in the Hall.. Your vacuous, presumptuous moralizing overlooks one critical element: where’s your evidence? Or do you just believe whatever you read or hear from other judgmental bigots who parrot their own self-serving entrails to make the news? Even MLB and its lawyers admit that no substantial evidence was ever found to indict or otherwise condemn more than a very small minority of those named in the Mitchell Report. So, the next time you choose to jump on the bandwagon to the land of hysteria, better check to see if it has any wheels. You are a loser.
WAR isn’t stupid though. These players who are all in the top 100 WAR all-time are all absolutely better than some players who got in. I say put them all in and stop bickering.
“Cheating was against the rules . . . “
Cheating to win in baseball is older than sixty feet, six inches, older than four balls and three strikes, older than batter’s gloves, older than fielder’s gloves, older than batting helmets, older than more than one umpire. It appears that cheating to win in baseball predated everything but the bat and ball.
Babe Ruth was caught using an illegal bat. Gaylord Perry admitted throwing “loaded” baseballs. Whitey Ford admitted throwing scuffed baseballs and Yogi Berra admitted scuffing them for him. Mickey Mantle used steroids. Too many HoFers to list admitted using amphetamines. And those are just the first which come to mind. None of these sins prevented admission to baseball’s HoF.
Currently the only people ineligible for election to the HoF are those made ineligible by the “commissioner” of baseball. If the HoF wishes, a la Morgan, to ban suspected PED users it should do so directly, rather than sniping at the members of the BBWAA. Bonds and Clemens will get in sooner or later. If the writers don’t vote them in their contemporaries on the veterans committee will.
I’m not debating, I’m saying he has almost 70 fWAR, no matter what anyone thinks of him, or even if they hate WAR, they have to admit that’s a lot.
See, the problem with players who make defense look easy is that they also make certain fans MASSIVELY undervalue what they do. Also some fans out there think defense means nothing and its like 5% of a players game. Andruw Jones was the greatest defensive CF of our generation but rarely gets viewed as such, because he made tough plays look routine. That is why he had a 10 year stretch of: 3.7, 7.0, 6.9, 7.7, 4.9, 6.3, 5.2, 5.3, 7.9, 6.0. If a player existed today with that stretch of unreal production on both sides of the ball, they’d be viewed as the legends they were.
Hot dogs.
Bonds did nothing special. How many home runs did he have before giving Pittsburgh a big F-U and going west to San Fran. That’s his total of home runs. Clemens, A-Rod bonds all cheated all were caught. A-Rod on several occasions.
I would argue that integrity is better honored late than never.
Any stat like WAR that can vary 100% (bbref 4 vs fangraphs 2 for hosmer) isn’t a stat at all. It’s constantly manipulated based on the bias or the calculator. But I agree people treat it like the word of god
justin-turner overdrive……..
“or why not go back and boot out all the admitted users, guys like Babe Ruth 🙂 ”
“Also: Bud Selig knew about steroids too, and he’s never tested for them when he could have from day 1 of his reign as Commish”
Yep…Ruth had one foray…he injected an extract made from sheep testicles as he was told that it would make him better in bed and at the plate. History shows he didn’t need the help. This is akin to those who scream (falsely) used a corked bat throughout.
In June 1991 Fay Vincent issued a memo banning all substances listed in the Controlled Substance Act of 1990 and specifically pointed to steroids and other PED’s. It was within his right as commish. He requested testing shortly afterwards and was given a firm “NO” by Donald Fehr who cited “player privacy”. In 1997 Selig issued an almost identical memo….again …a firm “NO” for testing. To say that he or any other commish, “could have from day 1 of his reign as Commish” is a complete fallacy. Did MLB know that PED’s were being used? Yep, I am not saying the didn’t. Could they force testing by any means other than a lockout and destruction of the game? Nope. It took Congress to force Fehr to agree to testing and it took embarrassment of Biogenesis to get the MLBPA to allow WADA style testing for anything. testosterone “based” and testing for HGH (they wouldn’t allow HGH testing because it requires a scary needle).
I know it’s fashionable to say “but players of old took this or that” so we should either boot them or allow all cheaters in. That is a fools errand. We can’t change history but we can prevent the mistakes of the past from recurring.
Pete Rose might have something to say about that.
Actually, MLB didn’t institute steroid rules until after the era. And, not a single hall of fame didn’t use something. Cocaine and amphetamines used to be passed out before games. Get over it.
Bobby Aberu???? Really?
Dodgethis…Steroids were banned in 1991…the MLBPA refused to allow testing and would not negotiate it until Congress forced the issue.
Babe Ruth? What was his cheat – hot dogs?
But you already have PED users in the Hall.
Yes Sheff was part if the Mitchell report. But so What? Most players did it during that era, even some you’d be very surprised about.
cocaine enhanced performance?
“Cheating was against the rules and the HOF voting instructions say that on the base of 3 criteria they should not get in.”
So how do you justify some cheaters being voted in and others left out? The idea that these writers know who cheated and who didn’t is absurd. It’s about the flimsiest foundation for the voting that you could possibly have. It was bad enough that some writers were judge and jury on baseball issues alone. They’ve lost all credibility as far as I go. Keep your faith in the hall if you want. To me it’s become the Hall of Hypocrisy.
If you want to compare HRs bonds hit in Pittsburgh compared to SF then you should compare David Ortiz in Minnesota vs Boston
None of those guys you listed will get in.
A small clarification: Being on MLB’s permanently ineligible list does not automatically preclude you from going into the HoF. The HoF operates by its own rules. It chooses to consider baseball’s ban list to be a HoF ban list, but it could just as easily choose not to tomorrow.
majorflaw…..”Babe Ruth was caught using an illegal bat.” Not entirely factual…. He used a composite bat for 40 games…here are some facts regarding that situation.
On July 19, 1923 The New York Times…. “Babe Ruth is using a new bat, which he has named “Old Sam.” It is the gift of Sam Crawford, former star outfielder of the Detroit Tigers, himself a home-run hitter before the days of the lively ball. “Old Sam” came to Ruth on July 1. Since then he has made twenty-seven hits, including six home runs, in sixty-five at bat [sic]. The bat is one inch shorter and four ounces lighter than the club Babe formerly used. It is fashioned of green wood with a grain running inversely to that of the ordinary bat, and is made of four pieces, cleverly dovetailed.”
August 14, 1923 Ban Johnson, American League President…. the “special bat George Ruth is now using does not conform to the regulations prescribed by the rules and must be discarded at once.”
After Johnson’s statement Miller Huggins correctly noted that “the rules simply state that the bat must be round, made entirely of hard wood and conform to certain dimensions. The new bat used by Ruth is made of hard wood and is perfectly round. The rules do not state that the bat must be made out of one piece of wood.”
A week later, August 21, Johnson said “the glue … increases the velocity of the ball and makes the bat just as illegal as the emery or the shine ball. If its use were permitted … the batmakers would try to introduce the use of rubber and other foreign substances which are now forbidden by the rules.”
It wasn’t until 1940 that Rule 15 was changed to state that the bat must be made of one piece of wood.
Just for the fun of it…the 40 games (7/1 -8/11/23) with “Old Sam” he slashed 444/568/833…13 hr…144 ab. The remainder of the season (48 games) 402/540/829…14 hr….164 ab
1991. The MLBPA would not allow testing, but the rules were in place in 1991.
jb226…..BBWAA Rules for Election issued by the HoF….Rule 3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:
E. Any player on Baseball’s ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.
https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/rules/bbwaa-rules-for-election
Years ago they “considered the ineligible list” but the later, after Pete (I recall her being 16 which was the age of consent) Rose the Hall made it a rule. They did so because despite the mountain of evidence in the Dowd Report some reporters would not believe it and wanted to elect him.
I agree Lee Smith got the worst hosing by not getting in the HOF.
Meh. First three yes. I think Walker yes. Rest nah.
If it’s become the Hall of Hypocrisy to you, then why do you even care?
They cheated – why should they?
While with the Yanks. I believe it was the cream for him
It enhanced the hell out of mine ! Or that’s what she said anyway….,
It’s very odd to me that most Bonds, Clemens, cheater supporters like to bring up who is already in The Hall. Voters of the past had less information and had different views and outlooks.
You can’t always compare current Hall of Fam members to potential ones. And I know that goes againt something we love in Baseball, historical statistics. But voters of the past were given a ballot of names and voted on those names.
Just because you view a player as “better” than a player already in, doesn’t mean they deserve an invitation.
Does your reasoning work in reverse? Should new players not be voted in because they aren’t “better” than those already in? No. You evaluate the names you are given and vote for those who are worthy of the honor.
“If it’s become the Hall of Hypocrisy to you, then why do you even care?”
I don’t anymore. I’ve been to Cooperstown. and enjoyed it immensely. But if I hadn’t been I wouldn’t make it a destination now. The voting just seems like a meaningless, exercise to me.
Manny was a cheat, and Sheff should have been banned for from the game for his early career antics in Milwaukee. The fact he wasn’t at the time was astounding
.
Yeah, me too. I can’t believe a known cheater isn’t being rewarded for cheating.
Manny retired to avoid a suspension for PED use. Let’s reward him!
The joke of the BBWAA vote for HoF is a bigger detriment to the image and success of MLB than pace of play. Manfred’s priorities are drastically messed up.
I don’t think Manfred has power over the BBWA and HOF.
The HOF is it’s own entity. Blame the players for caving on pace of play why don’t you…
Without question.
So is Edgar Martinez!
I think Billy Wagner was a better CL than Trevor Hoffman.
Hoffman: 1035 G, 856 GF, 1089 IP, 2.87 ERA, 307 BB:, 1183 SO, 61 W, 75 L, 601 S
Wagner: 853 G, 703 GF, 903 IP, 2.31 ERA, 300, BB, 1196 SO, 47 W, 40 L, 422 S
Nah.
My sentiments exactly. If Wagner had been a Yankee, he would have been a first-ballot HOFer. He was a monster closer.
It’s about (Trevor) time!!!
Yeah I don’t get the Hoffman controversy (is it real?). He was one of the greats, and how he did it without any overpowering pitches and for so long is a remarkable baseball feat.
I wonder if anyone remembers one of the more humiliating moments in Hoffman’s career. It was a legendary game.
Bonds and Clemens should of course be permanently banned from Hall induction. As should then Gaylord Perry, Babe Ruth, Pete Rose and anyone else who cheated in the manner of the aforementioned people.
Very happy for Vladimir (just a terrific player and one of the most exciting and watchable and unique and dynamic players of his era), Hoffman (his career numbers are absurdly great—he doesn’t need a post season resume to make it worrthy) and Jones!!
The steroid era went deep…that’s all I’m going to say about it. Don’t be so quick to dismiss so many and lady one player.
Blowing that wild card game against the Rockies? Did something like that happen?
Not one I remember if so. I was thinking of another. A regular season game. The clue is 2006.
I remember that long ago a dodger fan told me that Eric Gagne would wind up with a lot more saves than Trevor Hoffman would. I wish I could communicate with that fan right now.
Yeah good point. I’m an O’s fan (living in LA) and as great and historic as Britton’s 2016 was, its a reminder of how hard consistent excellence really is. It’s one of the things that makes Hoffman (not to mention Mo Rivera) so deserving.
A few years ago on another site, when it was evident that the Phillies would trade Hamels there was speculation he may go to the Dodgers. As always there was fan proposals of “packages”. One name mentioned was Alex Guerrero. One guy told me that even Guerrero for Hamels straight up would be an overpay because Guerrero was a sure fire can’t miss stud who would have a long and all star filled career. Ain’t the internet fun?
Lol, it’s always cringe-worthy to look back at proposals and even trades involving prospects even three years later.
Back in 2013, I had a list of young players who I liked, and the top two guys on the list were Dee Gordon and………..Jemile Weeks
Even the Hamels proposals involving players like Henry Owens, Blake Swihart etc. are like a stack of middle school selfies that you look back at, and laugh and cringe at.
@Cat Mando:
I had a similar exchange with a Yankee fan prior to the 2007 season. He had his team winning the WS, and when I pointed out that Phil Hughes, as an untested rookie, was a question mark, I was told, in no uncertain terms, about how ignorant about baseball I was, and that Hughes was a surefire ace in the making.
@Phillies2017
Talk about cringe worthy, I heard that when ARod was traded to the Yankees, they gave the Rangers a list of low-level prospects from which to choose a player. They selected Joaquin Arias, when Robinson Cano was also on the list. It shows how much a crap shoot grading prospects really is, at least early on.
He was a good reliever that was pretty replaceable for most of his career.
He rode the overvaluation of saves and a (mostly) clean bill of health to the Hall of Fame.
Happy for them. Hoffman should have been in last year. But I still think Bonds and Clemens should join them in upstate New York.
Agreed.
Bonds and Clemens should be permanently banned. Just no good reason to include them. Whatever numbers one throws out about them are falsified by their cheating, not to mention the manner in which they both tarnished the game. Hats off to the sportswriters who showed some moral reasoning and spine (something they too often neglect)!
Right, because you or I could take supplements and be 1st all time in homers or 3rd all time in strikeouts.
For me the issue with Bonds is not his ties to PEDs exactly. During the 1990s Bonds was the best player in baseball. There were constant arguments whether it was him or Griffey, and always thought it was Bonds. Griffey was a little bit better of an outfielder, and he played the more demanding CF. However, everything else titled Bonds’ way. He was the better hitter—other than 20 fewer home runs, Bonds outproduced Griffey across the board. And for those who love to use WAR, Bonds’ WAR was 12 points higher than Griffey’s from 1990-1999.
Now, if you’re the best player in baseball, a sure-fire first ballot hall of famer in the making, and likely going to be one of the best of all-time—without PED’s Bonds is still likely a 600 HR, 500 SB, guy, the all-time leader in BBs, and in the top ten in several categories (runs, RBIs, OBP, Slg, OPS+, etc.)…
If that wasn’t good enough for him, why then should it be good enough for the fans and the Hall of Fame?
“Tarnishing” the game, but you’re OK with condemning others with no evidence, to libeling others based on zilch? Your version of “moral reasoning” also worked well for Hitler and Pol Pot. You tarnish humanity with your baseless judgmentalism and knee-jerk hypocrisy.
Now there’s a sound piece of moral reasoning!!! Once the Hitler and Pol Pot comparisons start flying, well, the moral reasoning has really gotten better. Well done!!
I was wondering who was gunna go full Deadspin first. Congrats to him.
You do understand baseball is game of skill before anything, right?
Not sure you do understand that players wanting to play a full season and entertain us and make the most money in their short earning window at the expense of maybe their testes isn’t actually doing anything to make the team succeed. FP Santangelo roided and look at his career.
I’m more pissed off Kevin Millar was allowed to have a career and then get on tv, after crossing the 94 picket line. To me, thats worse than roiding. But that’s just me.
Bonds and Clemens should buy a ticket to go see what they robbed themselves of by cheating. Good character, integrity, and sportsmanship are requisite for being a HOFer and they failed that test.
“5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”
Exactly. And we should also apply this standard to ALL members and potential members. But we should NEVER—as too many suggest— lower the standard (or maintain the same shoddy standard) because that’s what had previously been done.
Agreed. Both players had zero class.
How do you know? Do you know these men personally? Or is this media bias?
Bonds was nearly always cited by his contemporary players as a great teammate, and his charitable work in the Bay Area will always be remembered with deep respect of the people and communities he helped.
Bonds didn’t play well with the reporters, mostly because of growing up in pro baseball culture and seeing first hand (and hearing second hand from his godfather and his teammates) the treatment of black baseball players. He wasn’t going to dance like a minstrel for the reporters, and much of the media hated him for it. In hindsight, it wasn’t probably the right tactic considering who votes for the Hall, and so we are where we are.
He definitely had a huge ego and was extremely competitive, which may have led toward some bad decisions in reaction to certain home run chases between McGwire and Sosa, but he was one of the most gifted sluggers (and base stealers!) of his generation regardless, and that is what the Hall of Fame is about: honoring the great players of every generation.
I say let him in and leave it to the Hall of Fame historians to tell people the story – it’s their job to place all of these great players into their specific historical and cultural context so they can be recognized and understood by future generations (or even so visitors can learn complex lessons from their stories).
The Hall—as clearly stated—is about much more than “honoring the great players of every generation.” Bonds was an absolute jerk, and that can’t be explained as simplistically as you explain it—namely that he didn’t want to dance for a media that wanted him too. He was routinely bellicose, and he was plentifully loathed outside of his home market—and, yes, also by teammates. No baseball Hall induction is t a popularity contest—nor should it be—but how a player presents himself—and thus the game of baseball—matters. And in this regard Bonds was an utter failure—to himself and the sport. (Writing this I think we’d find the same result if we leveled this same logic toward A-Rod, who also should be kept out of Cooperstown.) Couple this with his cheating and you have a recipe for his ongoing exclusion.
Lastly, rather than go your suggested route of letting him into the sacred halls of Cooperstown and THEN coming up with a narrative that fits how “complex” they were, let us hold him to a standard and have him and his career demonstrate how he’s met (or even exceeded) that standard. Thus far he’s not been able to do that, and that’s why he’s on the outside looking in.
We obviously feel differently, and that’s okay. I’m going to guess that you, too, aren’t a HOF voter, so what we both think ultimately doesn’t matter that much.
What I wrote about “dancing” for the media was indeed a simplistic take on an incredibly nuanced situation. He was a deeply pissed off member of an historically oppressed group that felt he had accomplished enough that he wasn’t going to put up with anything he didn’t feel like putting up with. So if people asked him stupid questions day after day and week after week he just wasn’t going to answer them or give them any time. It happens all the time now in sports and no one bats an eye.
As far as I have read and observed, he gave respect where he believed it was earned. I’m not going to get into a conversation here about historical racial dynamics, but they’re real and awful and easy to forget in a conversation where people are talking about standards like there aren’t mitigating and compounding factors that make them highly subjective.
I know he was a kind person and he was a very generous teammate. He could also be a jerk. So what? We are all sometimes jerks. Barry Bonds was not a jerk to his fans, his community, and those were the people he believed was beholden to, not the baseball writers.
Moreover, the Hall of Fame is full of jerks, and if you say it is full of saints and people who always played by the rules, and who were and are judged by the same exact standards, you’d be lying to more than just yourself.
Ty Cobb. Hated by everyone. First ballot. First class to get in. Your standard is silly.
Bonds would have been best served to juice and keep a low profile the way at least one of these players did who we’re admitting to the HOF. The issue isn’t roids….wait until Big Papi gets admitted..it’s the media voter relationship. Roids hasn’t and won’t keep anyone out on it’s own.
Cobb was dead and destroyed by that lying account of Al Stump. Go find a contemporary account of his being hated in any grand level. Ty Cobb has been reworked into a villain by our need for him to be one. Shoeless Joe spouting off in Field of Dreams doesn’t make it fact.
Anyone remember that time he cussed out Jim Leyland
Xtraflamy: getting back to you late here (next day) but I appreciate your points and perspective. Thanks for conversing!
So you disagree with voters of the past electing “jerks”, but you’re ok with them doing it now?
If you view the standards or requirements of the past to be too low or flawed, why not try to fix it? Maybe the voters are learning from other’s mistakes.
Your view seems to be “it sucked then so it should suck now”.
I remember Jim Leyland ripping him a new hole in his ozone layer
Baseball is the only sport that goes as far as possible to keep their best players out of the HOF. Record for most hits, record for most home runs, record for most Cy Young awards (aka for a record number of times he was voted the best pitcher in the game), let’s keep all these guys out. It’s dumb.
Awesome bunch. Was so fun watching them all play. Wish Edgar, Mussina, Clemens and Bonds got in though.
I doubt he ever gets in, but I also think Fred McGriff could be added to that list. A lot of his numbers aren’t far off from Chippers. Wish he’d get more love from the writers.
Oh yeah, I expanded the list above. 15 guys on that ballot didn’t get in but absolutely belong in – including the Crime Dog!
Moose and Edgar, yes. Clemens and Bonds, NEVER.
Of those 4 only Edgar is a HOFer. Maybe Mussina. Bonds and Clemens would have been in if they didn’t cheat.
Mike Mussina has never been implicated in any steroid accusation or even mentioned in passing at any time throughout the bulk of the steroid era. That is a measurably false assertion. He does not deserve to be lumped in with the same group, though I think the other three should get in as well. But that’s a whole different can of worms.
You know what, I just realized that was a period after Mussina, not a comma. My apologies. Punctuation changes the meaning quite a bit, huh? I agree he’s a somewhat borderline case in some respects, but when you look deeper, he’s definitely worthy from my perspective.
Chipper received 97.2% of the votes according to Mark Bowman.
The link to the official voting results on the BBWAA’s web site is right there, and it clearly states that he got 92.2%.
Edit: And it is now clear that the BBWAA made a typo, ha. The BBWAA lists Jones on 410 of 422 ballots, which is indeed 97.2%. They simply made a manual entry error when typing “92.2 percent.”
Bowman is correct. My apologies. Updating now.
How can anyone leave Chipper off their ballot? Did anyone truly invoke the ‘well he’s getting in with or without my vote, so I’m going to allocate my ration elsewhere.’ method?
Thank you for the apology. I am now an official source for MLB Trade Rumors. Just kidding. Keep up the good work.
@kayrall I would leave them off my ballet because it was a clear bet they were getting in. Just like ken griffey Jr last year. Trevor Hoffman wasn’t a clear bet thing this year.
Does it matter? People for sure left him off for that reason and probably because they feel he doesn’t deserve to be the 1st player to have 100%.
Come on . This is how it is, there is always some jag-off who has to make a point. 3 guys left of Griffy Jr, 5 guys left of Tom Seaver, 6 guys didn’t vote for Nolan Ryan, 8 Guys said no to Cal Ripken. Writers can be some serious douche’s at time and a lot don’t respect the power they have been given.
Yep. Same reason that Griffey didn’t get the 100% last year.
some voters submitted blank ballots, so that is part of it…
This article goes into great depth on one voter’s rationale, for excluding Chip off his ballot.
https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/will-past-controversial-tweets-impact-chipper-jones-hall-fame-chances-205915891.html
And this is his article explaining why he voted for those 10. (None, Chip)
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/jose-de-jesus-ortiz/ortiz-integrity-and-character-matter-when-weighing-hof-vote/article_dc7d1422-176a-5b4f-b837-600878a334ee.html
Why did Chipper get the most votes but Vlad finished with a higher percentage? I still believe it was a typo.
Clearly it was wrong.
I remember when Trevor Hoffman tried out for the football team at U of Arizona and got cut. He ended up being the drum major that year. Didn’t pick up baseball until his sophomore season. Amazing what he went on to become.
Jones only got 92 pct and change. Who were the other 7pct watching??
Voters only get a limited amount of votes, so they don’t vote for the slam dunk candidates so that some of the little guys will have a chance as well.
Yep. More than 10 guys who are deserving are eligible and the ballot is capped at 10.
Some others leave off a slam dunk guy so someone who will get fewer votes doesn’t fall off the ballot.
Also the 92 was a typo, it was 97.
I understand the rationing of votes. It’s an artificial construct of the ten man ballot. It’s something that unfairly hurts vote totals. Also I was going off the typo number.
It’s 97.2%. The BBWAA made a typo in entering his percentage.
It’s still a completely valid question, though, to ask what the other 2.8% were watching. I’ll never understand how some people can stubbornly cling to the mentality that “there’s no such thing as a first-ballot Hall of Famer.”
Chipper Jones is one of the easiest calls in the history of Cooperstown voting.
Amazing that that team had three first ballot HOFers, 15 division titles yet only one World Series win. Really shows how incredibly hard it is to win it all.
Probably voting for one of the most stacked ballots of all-time? Jeez like a dozen more guys should be in and you’re picking on Chipper and his cold cores not getting 100%? Weird.
Justice for Vladyy!! Should have been a first ballot HOF last year.
Vlady in an Expo cap? Coolest logo ever.
Is he going in as an Expo?
Vladimir Guerrero was a great player but I would note that he posted 54.3 fWAR and 59.3 bWAR in 2,147 career games while Edgar Martinez posted 65.5 fWAR and 68.3 bWAR in 2,055 career games.
Guerrero had a career wRC+ of 136 and a career OPS+ of 140 while Martinez had a career wRC+ and career OPS+ of 147 each.
According to Baseball Reference, Guerrero had a career dWAR of a negative 10.7 while Martinez had a career dWAR of a negative 9.7. FanGraphs assigned career defensive scores of a negative 115.0 for Guerrero and a negative 133.5 for Martinez while assigning career offensive scores of 370.2 for Guerrero and 500.8 for Martinez.
Yes he should have been first ballot! What a player!!!!
Not a fan of closers in the Hall but a huge Trevor Hoffman fan so I’m happy.
Those going in deserved it, but overall the HoF voting is a joke. It’s lost credibility. and I just can’t tale it seriously any more.
Imagine the credibility problem baseball would have if it—knowing what it now knows—allowed guys like Clemens and Bonds in.
There are already cheaters in the HoF, and yes, even those that used steroids and other PEDs. Having not gotten caught is no guarantee that anyone is clean. While he was with the D’backs Curt Schilling said just about every guy in the AZ clubhouse was using. The 120 or so players named in the Mitchell report was basically from one source, in one team’s clubhouse, but now suddenly it’s only a handful of guys. Yeah tight. I can guarantee you at least one and probably more of your favorite players cheated with PEDs. The hypocrisy of it all stinks.
“The 120 or so players named in the Mitchell report was basically from one source, in one team’s clubhouse,”
Read it and learn.
http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf
I have read the Mitchell Report. Read my post again. I said “basically” and I stand by that. There were a few isolated incidents, Cabrera in AZ, Segui in KC, Palmeiro, and the less than dozen names from Balco,etc.. But the vast majority of the names in the report came from Kirk Radomski. The list we saw in the report was just the tip of the iceberg. Believing that list was close to all the users is just fooling yourself.
Why is Mussina that close? When did this become the Hall of Very Good?!?!
Moose was a top 25 p all time. You can prove he’s better than a number of guys, including Gomez, Drysdale, and Sutton.
You can’t PROVE any of that. You can argue it, but it will always just be an argument.
Proof: http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2017&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=&rost=&age=&filter=&players=
Not saying you’re wrong about Mussina, but are you on the Fangraphs payroll or something?
@TheIncident,
Fangraphs presents their player data in a clean, easy to read manner. actually… easiest. I’d prefer it, if people here, cited Fangraphs more.
Thanks, justin (No, I’m not on their payroll)
Mussina is as equally if not more deserving than your boy Schilling.
Schilling’s postseason stats alone should get him into Cooperstown.
When did Very Good become the next step down from Fame? I have never understood why people make that claim. It is not called the Hall of Excellence..
Ok, so going by your logic, Tebow should get in because he’s famous.
I didn’t name the place. I’m just saying that “Hall of Very Good” doesn’t makes sense in comparison.
Too literal. The implication is fame achieved through ability, not simply being famous.
17th best pitcher of all-time, according to fangraphs. Clemens is #1.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2017&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=&rost=&age=&filter=&players=
BTW Kevin Brown is the most deserving HOFer who isn’t in. All of the top 50 pitchers and top 100 players on those WAR leaderboards should be in the HOF, period.
CC Sabathia is 1 WAR away from Tom Glavine.
Why don’t we automatically put every person who played the game in the Hall of Fame? Then, each year we can vote to eliminate a few of them.
More proof that WAR is a pretty silly thing to use to judge players. Sabathia isn’t a Hall of Fame pitcher.
Why isn’t he? He’s done everything a pitcher can do and was elite for at least an 8 year stretch.
Anyone who is a detractor of WAR always ends up looking really stupid, just a thing a noticed over time.
He prob is a hall of famer, but he’d have the 4th highest ERA in the hall
Always best to compare a pitcher’s career ERA with the league’s average during their career. (Yet another reason that Jack Morris should NOT be in the HOF.)
Brewers39……..
The 16 member Modern Era Committee consisting of George Brett, Rod Carew, Bobby Cox, Dennis Eckersley, John Schuerholz, Don Sutton, Dave Winfield, Robin Yount, Sandy Alderson, Paul Beeston, Bob Castellini, Bill DeWitt, David Glass, Bob Elliott, Steve Hirdt and Jayson Stark who gave Morris 14 vote disagrees with you.
It’s funny to call someone stupid and commit a typo and a grammatical error when you call it out.
Other than the Ws and the fact that he played for the Yankees, I think Mussina belongs in the Hall of Very Good.
Or how about putting up a respectable 123 ERA+ and pitching 60% of your career games at YS, Fenway Park and Oriole Park in the steroid era along with 270 wins and a career WAR over 80
MB, you have been a very respectable poster here at MLBTR for as long as I can remember. You of most people should know better than to quote wins even for a guy that you probably respect tremendously.
Sure, wins are meaningless, but lets not pretend that HOF voters don’t use them. It’s been a long tradition that 200 wins is the “HOF threshold.” I don’t think its a surprise that 58 of the 77 HOF pitchers had 200+ wins, about 5 more are in the 190s, and about 5-6 more were relievers, and 2 more were Koufax and Ruth (not exactly in the hall for their longevity).
Whats funny about this post is that it used to be 300 Wins was automatic. Then, over time, it became 200. So now there’s all these sub-300 W pitchers out there not in the HOF. But because of the way the game changed with more relief pitcher use, the HOF didn’t really adjust correctly.
But also, Tim Hudson and Kenny Rogers have over 200 wins and they definitely aren’t getting in.
I’m not ruling on Timmy Hudson just yet..
I’m only using Wins because this is what the voters look at. Just like they look at Saves which is what gets Trevor Hoffman in and keeps Billy Wagner out
I saw a lot of Mussina when he was an Oriole. HOF’er.
The end of his Yankee career is actually the reason he’s not in, he’s being remembered as some sort of compiler. He was an ace.
Being very good for a very long time is exceptional. Even very very good players are very good only for a fairly short time.
Congrats to all but especially Chipper
Clemens & Bonds of course both do belong but I would not be upset if it took until their final year of eligibility for the whole steroid fuss also would set a precedent for when ARod comes up and Manny as well
Suprised Edgar didn’t make it he is deserving as is Crime Dog, Schilling, Mussina & Wagner. Gonna be tough for Wagner because Hoffman this year & Mariano next. I don’t see 2 closers getting in the same year.
Obvious that Jones will go into the Hall as a Brave and Hoffman as a Padre. Will Thome go in as an Indian? What about Guerrero?
Montreal.
Naw, he’ll go in as an Angel where he had his MVP season.
He had his best seasons in Montreal. His top 3 seasons by WAR and OPS were as an Expo.
I have to agree that he’s most likely to go in as an Expo, and unless the veterans committee inducts an old Montreal player some time in the future, only Bartolo Colon and Larry Walker will remain as potential future Expo Hall of Famers.
No doubt Thome will go in as an Indian.
Poor Edgar. One year left for him. But he likely gets in next year with Mariano, who has said (along with Pedro) that Edgar was the toughest hitter they ever faced.
Edgar and Mussina got hosed too.
Edgar will get in next year. Mussina either next year or the year after.
The former players like Joe Morgan that vote for the HOF are hypocrites. We all know their was one form of drug use or another used throughout the history of the game. Whether it was uppers or coke athletes will do whatever it takes to get through the grind.
Chipper! We now have our second #1 overall draft pick to make the HOF
Don’t care about the Hall until Bonds and Clemens get in.
If Piazza and Pudge are in, Bonds and Clemens are in.
There’s just as much evidence of Piazza and Pudge doing PEDs as Bonds and Clemens.
No there isn’t.
Kick/keep all of them out.
Right! No there isn’t. Particularly, Piazza. Oh wait! He had a rash on his back. Hang him at the airport.
The Piazza/Bagwell hate by idiot fans is so infuriating. They literally got persecuted for being good baseball players at the wrong time to be a good baseball player.
Why must we let the nonsense people have the most say?
I don’t hate Piazza and Bagwell for being good. In fact I don’t hate either one, and I’m glad they’re the Hall. But to say they’re persecuted for being good misses the mark. It’s that they suddenly became very good, along with a power surge that wasn’t there before. Bagwell goes from averaging 19 HRs, and a .464 SLG. per season in his first 3 seasons to averaging 41 HRs, and a .589 SLG. per year.
And it’s very hard to believe that all the scouts were so wrong about Piazza, that he gets drafted in the 62nd round, and then only as a favor to Tommy Lasorda who was friends with Piazza’s dad. Then he goes from an SLG. of .444, then .390, with 14 HRs in his first 2 years to a .540 SLG and 29 HRs in his 3rd year.
I think they used PEDs, but MLB was rife with usage. The field was fairly level. But I think if they’re in, along with Pudge Rodriguez then Bonds and Clemens belong as well.
And I’m a guy that absolutely detests Clemens.
If there was as little evidence against Bonds and Clemens as there is against Piazza and Pudge, Bonds and Clemens would already be in.
Bonds admitted using them in court. He was named in the Mitchell report. Case closed. Clemens was named in the Mitchell report. Case closed. They don’t belong in the HOF unless they are buying a ticket to visit.
Piazza and Pudge never admitted using them nor were they named in the Mitchell report.
The Mitchell Report named 120 or so players. That was basically from one source, one guy in one team’s clubhouse. If you think the Mitchell Report came close to the breadth of PED usage in baseball you’re naive.
tad2b13…….once again…read it and then come back as say it was basically one guy.
http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf
Once again I have read the report, and the vast majority of the players named came from one source, Kirk Radomski. How do you justify Curt Schilling saying just about everyone in the AZ clubhouse was using, and that he didn’t want to slap teammates on the butt, because that’s where they received their steroid shots, to only one D’back Alex Cabrera being called out, because his shipment to the AZ clubhouse was discovered?
Why did the Mitchell Report completely miss what was going on with Biogenesis? The mitchell Report was the tip of the iceberg.
And what proof is that?
Theoretically there is proof of Piazza who admitted it in his own autobiography that he took PED’s (though he said they were legal ones)
Bonds and Clemens will probably never get voted in but they’ll get in anyway through the veterans committee.
Hopefully, you are right about the first part. They never get in.
Bonds and Clemens have absolutely no chance of the Veterans Committee voting them in. Their only chance is the writers and the writers have made it clear cheaters don’t belong.
Selig is in. Might as well put in the players.
Cheaters like Bonds and Clemens are criminals that stole money and spotlight from clean players. They stole the chance to make the HOF from legitimate players like Fred McGriff. It is nice that the voters are recognizing that they do not belong. They will never get inducted.
You have absolutely no idea who is clean. Not having been caught doesn’t make a player clean. There are PED users in the Hall that simply didn’t get caught. Undoubtedly many more than you realize.
How can people justify voting for Carlos Lee or Livan Hernandez on this stacked ballot? Jamie Moyer with 10 votes? Getting a HOF vote is an honor, but when there is a limit of 10, guys can get hurt by votes like that.
Carlos Lee should have gotten at least 50 percent of votes this year. (I had him in line to get in next year, but I guess then two years is more realistic.)
Huh? Carlos Lee got 1 vote. He’s not getting in.
Is this a joke??
That Carlos Lee got a vote? Yes, that is a joke and its garbage like that that kept Edgar out.
Many of the voters are petty and infuriatingly stupid. If you actually read what these writers write, you would be so mad at how incompetent many of them are.
I cannot wait until all the voters are under 50 years old (the first generation who grew up without ESPN promoting anti-PED stories and making like these men out to be murderers 24-7) and no one really cares about drug use when it comes to the HOF, a place with an 80’s player who enjoyed cocaine so much he kept a glass vial full of it in his back pocket and dove in headfirst to preserve it. Congrats to Tim Raines, Hall of Famer. He deserved it.
How about we take the idiot writers out of it. Current HoFs should have the majority of the vote with a ballot for players who have been retired for four or more years with 7 years of service or more. And a ballot for broadcasters who have covered baseball exclusively for 7 or more years.
Take the writers out of it and you take the politics out of it and the choice is made by the baseball warriors only.
Just let better writers who understand metrics do it.
People hate the concept of letting in the top 100 in WAR but honestly, if you run down the list, all of them had long stretches of being elite MLB players, so what’s the big deal? Bruce Sutter had 8 elite years and 3 awful ones and he’s in.
Mussina will get in for sure. I always considered Jack Morris, and Jim Rice as the two barriers that needed to be broken to allow people that honestly do not belong in the Hall of Fame to get in and a starter and hitter. Just my honest opinion but Morris simply wasn’t a Hall of Famer, just a hall of very good player. Those stats just are not all that dominant outside of wins for his time period, let alone any other time period. I am saying that as a kid that grew up loving the guy. I grew up a Red Sox fan, and Jim Rice was the player that made me want to be a baseball player, along with Eck in those years. Jim Rice was a great player but the career places him right at the mark of being very good, not hall of fame. Mussina is better then Morris, so there you go.
Schilling is better than Morris too. In no way should Morris be in in the HOF, same with Tim Raines.
But they are. And that is not changing. But there are many guys from the 20s, 30s, and 40s that probably shouldn’t be in there either and it really hasn’t hurt anyone with them being included. The more players that get included means fewer players get forgotten in 50 years. This is the history of something I love dearly and I hope it gets remembered long after I have departed.
Congrats to my fav of alll time!! You made me a Braves fan back in the tbs days and a lifelong diehard Braves fan, miss seeing you out there every season..
How did Johnny Damon only get 8 votes. 2700 hits is no small feat. Not saying he is hof worthy but only 8 votes?
Ballot is LOADED. Totally jammed up with worthy guys. No room for sympathy votes for guys who were very good but will pretty clearly not ever get in.
theres a bunch more deserving guys on the ballot. Hes a victim of the system
Yep. Like Johan who unfortunately was one and done.
So happy to see more then one go into the Hall. Congrats to those guys!
All 4 deserve in. Hoffman deserved a first ballot treatment though. Moose will likely get in within 3 years, if he hits 70% he’ll be in the year after. I suspect Clemens and Bonds will get in on year 10. Other than that the only question is what happens to Vizquel over the years.
Mariano (lock), Helton, and Halladay are the big names next year. Jeter (lock) and Giambi the year after. No greats the year after. And then Arod and Ortiz will bring out big debates.
Edgar Martinez missing the HOF, arguably..maybe not even arguably, just the best DH all time is what got people angry the most— Finished 14 votes shy.
WFAN 660 incorrectly said 14 votes short (Initially….) Radio guys don’t fact check anymore :/
Actual number is 20 short.
Still not right.. hope he gets in!
I love how Morris who almost had a career 4 era gets in but not mussina, What a joke. You can even argue that he was better than glavine
Other than that congrats to the entries this year !!
Missions is a joke to get it, omg a real joke. He was a selfish player only caring about his stats n not the team.
Mike Mussina is HOF’er. Easy call.
Too many in hall, it is getting watered dow, should be called Hall of Very Good.
These 4 I don’t mind. Jack Morris, I mind.
It’s been the Hall of Very Good for a long, long time my friend.
Trevor HOFfman.
Somebody needed to say it.
As long as it’s taken Edgar to get in (which he still hasn’t !!!) it better take years for Ortiz to get in
If you let Bud Selig disgrace the game and give him his own personal shrine in Cooperstown…. well then, any player omission on the basis of steroids is completely hypocritical
Roger Clemens should be in the HOF. When he was in Boston most of his career he put HOF numbers up. Just his doing that should be enough. His career later was remarkable too. As I heard Burns today say others are in the Hall why shouldn’t he be? I feel strongly about it just like I am angry the Redsox ownership has not retired his number. I am disgusted withe the ownership. His number n Shillings number should be celebrated like others have.
So many of the writers (including many I really respect) are (intentionally or not) playing a Trojan Horse shell game.
When guys like Pudge, Piazza, etc. were up for the HOF, they said “there is no proof they did steroids, you can’t punish them” and they voted them into the HOF.
Then one or two years later they say “there are already PED users in the HOF like Piazza and Pudge so you can’t punish Bonds, Clemens, etc.”
We can’t solve every crime, should we let the criminals we do convict go because it’s unfair to them that other people got away with their crimes? Absurd argument.
That whole argument is around integrity. The integrity of the Hall is already compromised because there are clearly at least some “cheaters” in the hall already. If you kicked out the obvious “potential” PED users, then sure.. but you can’t have it both ways. Either they’re in, or they’re out.
All 4 used some form of performance enhancing. If you disagree then:
1. Prove they didn’t
2. Go feed ur unicorn
Jim Thome didn’t use anything. Hes like griffey the same time his whole career.
They all used. And they’ll all deny it. And all you suckers will believe them. Ivan, piazza and bagwell? You believe them?
The unicorn is still hungry
Bagwell seemed like one of the PED users, Clemens should be in, n Bonds, no question. Musina, no. He was not the pitcher Shilling was, when it counted. He was good, not one I feared when he pitched against the Bosox.
Prove that they did.
There was a test in medieval times. Throw a woman in water, if she drowns (and dies) she’s innocent and if she floats then she’s a witch and should be executed.
If you don’t see a parallel, feed your troll.
Wow! The old witchy woman parallel. I didn’t think of that. But I will wear purple.
It doesn’t matter if they did. Baseball is a skill and team game.
I didn’t say I didn’t agree with the selections of the last 2 years. I believe they deserved selection. I’m just tired of hearing how they didn’t “cheat”.
You are sure that everyone cheated because there is no proof that shows they didn’t? That’s got to be some sort of fallacy or something.
Rule 5 says otherwise. Character, integrity and sportsmanship are requirements of inclusion in the Hall of Fame. Using steroids or hgh or any other illegal PED disqualifies a player from consideration entirely.
Edgar Martinez should have gotten in too. Lee Smith is a HOFer as well. They vote in the 2nd all time saves leader but not the 3rd all time saves leader. Makes no sense.
Can’t believe Mario Mendoza still has not made the HOF yet…. :(. He even has a baseball term named for him and yet can’t get any votes….
You need to wait for Tommy John to get in first.
Wagner Despite having bad post season numbers (with many more chances than hoffman) he was the better pitcher over a long time period and should have gotten in
These are good choices. Chipper is obvious, Thome has slugging stats that no “clean” player has ever been denied the HOF with, Vlad wouldn’t be inner circle for me, but very much a top tier player. Hoffman I could go either way on. I do think if given the choice of picking Hoffman for a career as opposed to either Mussina or Schilling, I would have gone for the two starters. I don’t have much sympathy for the juicers, particularly Sosa and Manny. I expect Bonds and Clemens will make it eventually.
Jones one of the greatest of all time! Go braves !!!
My sentiments echo those of many other commenters here: Edgar and Mussina deserve to be in. The arguments that downplay the significance of a DH are flawed, as they focus on physical stress of playing the field, but they fail to acknowledge the benefits of playing the field; being able to stay loose and focused. I would argue there’s mental stress being a DH; sitting on the bench the majority of the game with nothing to do but overthink things, which would explain why so few DH’s have been elite hitters and rarely dominate. Ortiz and Cruz have made it look easy, but not many have been able to do very long.
Strong class. Glad the obvious roiders are kept out again.
I would take out Morris and rice among others from the hall of fame
Wow, those who argue against hoffman must not be very bright if 200 innings and 128 post season appearences are your sticking points.
The biggest argument against him being in is he pitched 200 innings less than rivera? In riveras 2nd season he posted 107.1 innings……and pitched an additional season of 44 innings. That mostly accounts for 150 innings worth of difference.
Also, 128 post season appearences…. Yankees paid for championships padres didnt. Idk how its hoffmans fault the padres didnt or couldnt afford to get to the post season.
Yea they paid for those titles despite developing their core from their farm ………..
David Cone
Kenny Rodgers
Daryl Strawberry
Dwight Gooden in the dynasty years
mike mussina, jason giambi, matsui, sheffield, wang, contreras, farnsworth, damon.
I mean, kinda forgot to mention all those hefty free agents over the years man that helped marino get to the post season 128 times.
Mariano won all of his titles except for 2009 before the Yankees spent tons of money after 2001, that’s my point. You can’t claim they just signed everyone during those years when. That’s not true. They made tons of good trades and great call ups from the minor league system
Ironically the more they spent the less titles they won after the dynasty years
By paid for championships I mean they went out and paid big money to key players…..which they did. Regardless if they actually won championships they spent with the intent to win them.
Also, a lot of trades they made they did so taking on financial obligations other clubs couldn’t. They paid Paul O Neil 4 years 19 mill 2 years after trading for him days before he hit FA and gave hefty extensions at times to players they traded for that would beat what they’d receive on the open market. Hence the paid for championships during the dynasty years.
Farm system
Bernie
Posada
Jeter
Mendoza
Rivera
Pettite
Trade
Stanton
Wetteland
Nelson
Knoblauch
O’neal
Brosius
Martinez
Clemens
Justice (huge trade in 2000)
Free agent
Mike Stanton
David Wells
Orlando Hernandez
Yea that’s lots of “buying” during the dynasty years there …..
The most unforgivable part of the PED era is that everybody is now always a suspect, and most of them do not deserve it.
Ken Caminiti, were he still alive, would disagree. He estimated one-half of the players in MLB were using PEDs, By his accounting, only half don;t deserve it and the other half do. But I’m sure you believe you know who is clean right?
This is **exactly** what I’m talking about.
“But I’m sure you believe you know who is clean right?”
Add a “not” in there. Turnabout is fair play.
I’m sure you like how easy it is to work with the premise that half of everyone in the era was using. You have a 50/50 shot of being right, and if you’re wrong, nobody can go back and prove a negative anyway. Anybody could be in that half. That’s a nice drop-in alternative to thinking critically about it, anyway. All the more time to devote to mentally preparing for corn-on-the-cob eating contests or whatever it is you do in your spare time.
Frankly I don’t care. If it can’t be articulated with a reasonable level of particularity why someone is a PED suspect, I’m not going down that road. I’m not going to accuse them just because it’s easy and provides an opportunity to sound self-righteous on the internet. Obviously lots of players are tied to PEDs for very specific reasons. Most players aren’t. Are there users that never got one ounce of notoriety out of it? I’m sure there are. But I’m not just going to accuse whoever I want of PED use just because I feel like it.
The integrity of the entire era is compromised. All we have left is knowing that **some** of them were clean, and so it wouldn’t kill anyone to act like human being from time to time, giving the benefit of the doubt to players who have never been tied to PEDs. Getting angry at them will not make the known cheaters go back in time and fix the roid era.
No Barry Bonds means it’s not really the hall of fame.
Because he really, really, really thought it was flaxseed oil?
Obviously there’s always gonna be snubs for the hall of fame, and people who get in, despite deserving it:
At this point, I don’t see any reason not to elect Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens etc. Back then it wasn’t regulated. Don’t blame the player, blame the framework of the rules at the time.
Using an example, let’s say a study on a vitamin supplement currently allowed by the MLB came out and said that it unfairly enhanced the ability of those who took it. Would you retroactively punish, say Mike Trout, for using that supplement before it was banned? Bonds still leads the major leagues in home runs of all time, Palmiero still collected 3,000 hits, it just makes no sense.
Moving on, however, I am surprised that Santana did not receive enough votes to even stay on the ballot. While he may not be a hall of famer, the fact that he got 10 votes is unexpected.
If I had to fill out a ballot for this year, mine would be rather straightforward:
Martinez, Mussina, Hoffman, Wagner ,McGriff, Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Rolen and Manny
I wouldn’t have voted for Chipper, Vlad or Thome simply because it was a fact that they were going to get in regardless, and my philosophy would be to “spread the love” if that makes any sense.
And yes, I understand that if everyone used my method then guys like Vlad, Chipper Thome wouldn’t get in, but the whole point is that nobody else would do it.
Nevertheless, congratulations to the guys who got in, these guys are all exceptionally worthy!
I’ll never forget the time Chipper called my friend a meatsock on Twitter, lol!
Rule 5. Read it. They do not qualify under 3 of the 5 qualification.
As Clinton Yates said about keeping great players out, that’s the oldest, old-man argument in Oldmanganistan.
The Bill James “it wasn’t regulated, it wasn’t enforced” argument is the single stupidest thing I’ve ever heard a smart person say.
It was regulated, it was (and is) illegal. Doesn’t get any more regulated than illegal.
It wasn’t enforced? Congress had hearings over it. Congress. The FBI spent years on it.
EVERY SINGLE PLAYER playing in that era knew full well that steroids were not allowed, which is why the users all hid it and to this very day will not admit to it.
“It was regulated, it was (and is) illegal. Doesn’t get any more regulated than illegal.”
So none of the known amphetamine users belong in the Hall? Are the stats they compiled while amped up on greenies tainted?
“So none of the known amphetamine users belong in the Hall? Are the stats they compiled while amped up on greenies tainted?”
So instead of trying to improve we should maintain the schoolyard mantra of “But…but…Johnny did bad things too?” As I have said before….We can’t change history but we can prevent the mistakes of the past from recurring.
The “but there are guys who used greenies in the hall” argument is on the same level as “But Rose never bet against his team”
Except we can change who is in the Hall. Their plaques can be removed.
It is a clear double-standard to allow known cheaters from the past to remain while preventing modern-day offenders from being allowed in.
Or we could act like adults and learn
I refuse to go to a game until Edgar and Rose are inducted. I’ll show ‘em!
I was always a fan of Vlad. Glad i got to see him play when he signed with Baltimore
Edgar career WAR: 68, Jeter career WAR: 71.
Jeter will be 1st ballot bc he was a Yankee SS, Edgar will have to wait until his 10th year before making it.
Edgar shouldnt make it at all. He deseves it as much as a bullpen catcher. Not a real ballplayer
So do none of his home runs count? Thats just an ignorant comment.
Chris Carpenter was a one and done are you fxxxxng kidding me?? He’s a hell of a lot more deserving than a dh that got 70% on the vote (e.martinez).
Edgar is more deserving than Carpenter. Carpenter has a career era of 3.76. Take a look at some of the comparisons on baseball reference. Not saying Carpenter isn’t worthy but a career .312 over 17 seasons is more worthy imo.
Not to mention his .413 career OBP.
A lifelong dh is only half of a baseball player in my eyes. Imagine a ted williams, dimaggio, musial, or gwynn that didnt have to worry about playing his position. They wouldve hit .400 for 10 years straight. Stats are very misconstrued when theyre only doing half their job. A true baseball fan knows this is true
What evidence is there that not playing the field results in that kind of increase in offensive production?
Try comparing offensive stats with and without the dh and then try picking up a glove there csi.
Wow, you’re going to use DHs vs. pitchers hitting as an argument that fielders hit insanely better when they’re full-time DH’s? C’mon bro.
No edgar is not more deserving. Carpenter was a cy young candidate for more than 5 years and led his team to 2 world series titles. And truly led by his outstanding pitching and leadership. Martinez had one big hit that really mattered and it was a one game playoff. Martinez had really good stats for a part time player but is a far reach as a hof’er imo
I love the comparison of Bonds HR total in Pittsburgh vs SF. There is someone very obvious that has never been linked to steroids that makes me wonder. Take a look at David Ortiz in Minnesota vs Boston.
Ortiz has most definitely been linked to steroids before…
Glad to see Vladdy get in, he could be the first player in the HOF wearing an angels hat.
I’d love to see him wearing a Angels batting helmet, covered in pine tar. Those helmets cracked me up. He was a heck of a fun player to watch. He could hit bad pitches better than anyone. Can’t believe that he is in his low 40’s. For some reason I thought he was older when he retired. Most of have been due to the way he ran with his bad knees.
As much as I’d like to see Edgar Martinez in the HOF, if he never makes it fine. However, this means that Ortiz should never be in either.
DH’s stats need an *. They have a bigger advantage than steroid players. PTP’S
Ortiz’s stats wouldnt be close to what they are if he played full time everyday
Great class, although vlad should have been in last year as a first ballot.
I like Vlad but he is NOT a HOF. How does he get in with 449 homers in the live ball era?
Mussina is another guy who was good but won 20 games once and never made a name in the post season. He had a losing record in the post season and he was on the great Yankee teams.
Schilling is similar to Catfish Hunter. Had some great season, fairly consistent and a monster in the post season. Yet Hunter got in and Schilling is on the outside looking in.
Fred McGriff has the same problem Dwight Evans has. Consistent with the bat and was up there for his era in a few categories but just doesn’t get the respect for being a B level player. Their defense doesn’t get taken into account. McGriff also gets hurt by his career overlapping with the steroid era.
Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Palmeiro, McGwire and Bonds are the face of the steroid era. It may come down to the Veteran’s Committee for Bonds and Clemens. The rest are plutonium.
Sheffield is another border line guy. 22 years, mostly in the steroid era, and he only got 509 homers.
Edgar Martinez stuck a dagger in my heart in 1995, but he deserves to be in the Hall.
In a sane society, Trevor Hoffman would have easily been a first ballot hall of famer. Him and Mariano are 1a and 1b on the list of greatest relief pitchers of all time.
Not really. The only thing that makes Hoff that much better than Billy Wagner is saves total. Even Jon Papelbon had a better ERA, Fip, K/9, BB/9, HR/9 and basically the same H/9.
Sorry, but Thome is not a HOFer to me. Great HR hitter, but one-dimensional. The HOF has a lot of players who don’t belong there (Santo, Tony Perez, Wilhelm, Rizzuto, Rice, Sutter to name a few). Gotten way too watered-down.
Thome is hardly one dimensional. Hes 7th all time in walks and 8th all time in home runs. He has a higher HR total and OBP for his career than Miggy and Pujols
I think Thome should have made The HOF, but not first ballot.
Thome doesn’t even drive a car. Tractor, slow, steady and always reaping the harvest.
If you would like to discuss one dimensional players, how about every designated hitter.
Almost no doubt next year, Mariano Rivera makes it in first ballot, and so does Roy Halladay (RIP).
Morris getting in means tons of pitchers like Halliday, moose and shilling should all get in. I mean all three were better than Morris after all
Let me ask a question here. How do the hall of fame voters know that chipper, Thome, Vlady, and Hoffman did not use steroids? They played in the steroid era? We just assume bonds and Clemens did but these didn’t. Doesn’t seem logical
Hard to believe that is a serious question but since it seems to be here is a little light reading for you…there is plenty more if you like
http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf
Once again the Mitchell Report was the tip of the iceberg. The vast majority of the named players came from Kirk Radomski. The Biogensis Lab was missed by the Mitchell investigation being exposed afterward. How many other labs, or users did they miss? But most importantly, the premise that not being named in the Mitchell Report exonerates anyone, is completely wrong. The report did not exonerate anyone.
The writers who voted for known “greenie” users who refuse to vote for known (or alleged) PED users are massive hypocrites.
Same for the players. (Looking at you in particular, Frank Thomas.)
Or maybe they are learning from their mistakes.
Trying to progress, improve and make things better. But no, they’re “massive hypocrites”.
How do you put Hoffman in, but not Wagner? If you told me today you had two rookie relievers and their careers were going to end up like this.
Player A: 16 seasons, 903 IP, 11.9 K/9, 3.0 BB/9, 0.8 HR/9, 2.31 ERA, 187 ERA+, 2.73 FIP
Player B: 18 seasons, 1089 IP, 9.4 K/9, 2.5 BB/9, 0.8 HR/9, 2.87 ERA, 141 ERA+, 3.08 FIP
I would take player A everytime. He was a more dominant player, even if he threw 180 less innings. The idea that at least 7 out of 10 HOF voters see player B as an all time great and not player A is mind boggling to me.
I’m disappointed by all the east and left coast bias . The was a lot of great ball players in flyover country that will never make the list.Ted Simmons,Fred Mcgriff, Edgar Martinez Mark McGwire ,Larry Walker Lou Whitaker ,Dick Allen ,Sammy freaking Sosa,And put his freaking cork bat right next to him. He and McGwire saved baseball give them a break.And that the award ceremony make them iPhone app and make Sammy put his old face back on. If you don’t agree with my steroid guys fine but the other guys definitely should be in the Hall of Fame
+1 for the Sosa joke. But -1 for everything else.