The Baseball Writers Association of America on Wednesday elected Chipper Jones, Vladimir Guerrero, Jim Thome and Trevor Hoffman to the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Jones (who appeared on 97.2 percent of ballots) and Thome (89.8 percent) will go into Cooperstown as first-ballot Hall of Famers. Guerrero (92.9 percent) will be enshrined in his second year of eligibility. Hoffman (79.9 percent) was on the ballot for the third time.
Edgar Martinez fell shy of the 75 percent mark needed for enshrinement, receiving a votes on 70.4 percent of ballots Others coming within 20 percent of induction include Mike Mussina (63.5 percent), Roger Clemens (57.4 percent) and Barry Bonds (56.4 percent). Full voting is available at the BBWAA’s website.
There was never much doubt that Jones, 45, would be a first-ballot Hall of Famer. The former No. 1 overall draft pick and 1999 National League MVP was an eight-time All-Star, a two-time Silver Slugger and won a World Series title with the 1995 Braves. One of the best switch-hitters in the history of the sport, Jones hit .303/.401/.529 with 468 home runs, 150 stolen bases, 1619 runs scored and 1623 runs batter in over the life of a brilliant career that spanned nearly two decades.
Remarkably, Jones batted better than .300 and posted on OBP north of .390 from both sides of the plate over the course of his illustrious career. In addition to the extraordinary work he did in the regular season, Jones was an accomplished postseason bat as well, hitting a combined .287/.409/.456 with 13 homers in 417 trips to the plate in the postseason. Both Baseball-Reference and Fangraphs peg Jones’ amazing career at more than 85 wins above replacement.
Thome, 47, heads into Cooperstown as one of the most accomplished sluggers in Major League history. The longtime Indians star retired with 612 homers — then the seventh-most home runs in big league history (though he’s since been passed by another Cooperstown-bound slugger, Albert Pujols, in that regard). Thome never won a league MVP but did make five All-Star teams and take home a Silver Slugger.
An on-base machine, Thome hit .276/.402/.554 and scored 1583 runs against 1699 runs batted in over the course of a career that spanned parts of 22 Major League seasons. He belted another 17 homers and knocked in 37 runs over the course of 267 postseason plate appearances. His career 147 OPS+ ties him with Hall of Famers Willie Stargell, Willie McCovey, Mike Schmidt and the aforementioned Edgar Martinez for the 47th-best mark in MLB history. B-Ref pegged Thome’s career at 72.9 WAR, while Fangraphs credited him with a similarly excellent 69 WAR.
Guerrero, 43 next month, spent parts of 16 seasons in the Majors and batted .318/.379/.553 with 449 home runs, 1328 runs scored, 1496 runs batted in and 181 stolen bases. Guerrero earned American League MVP honors in a 2004 campaign that saw him bat .337/.391/.598 with 39 homers in 680 plate appearances, and he finished third on the AL MVP ballot on two other occasions. Guerrero was named to nine All-Star teams and took home eight Silver Slugger Awards in his career.
Guerrero was uncannily consistent, hitting .300 or better in 13 of his 15 full seasons in the Majors (and batting .290 and .295 in the two in which he came up short). Both OPS+ and wRC+ feel that the only full season he had in the Majors in which his bat was below the league average was his final season in 2011, when he batted .290/.317/.416 as a 36-year-old. He joins Juan Marichal and Pedro Martinez as the third Dominican-born player to be elected to the Hall of Fame.
Hoffman’s appointment to Cooperstown will be the most polarizing among today’s honorees. The 50-year-old is, of course, one of just two players in Major League history to record more than 600 career saves, joining future Hall of Famer Mariano Rivera in that regard. Hoffman’s career came to a close with a 2.87 ERA, 9.4 K/9 and 2.5 BB/9 as well as 601 saves and a 61-75 record through 1089 1/3 innings.
Hoffman’s supporters point to that vaunted save total, his seven All-Star nods and exceptional consistency. Hoffman posted a sub-3.00 ERA in 12 of 14 seasons from 1994-2007, averaging 37 saves per year along the way. His detractors note that he logged nearly 200 fewer innings than Rivera, the man to whom he is most often compared (based on their incredible saves totals) and also pitched 128 fewer postseason innings than Rivera.
There is, of course, no denying that Hoffman had a remarkable career; he averaged better than a strikeout per inning and finished with an ERA+ of 147, turning in an ERA worse than the league average just once in his career — in his 18th and final MLB season. Whether that places him among the all-time greats can be debated ad nauseam, but those whose voices matter most in that discussion (the BBWAA) clearly are of the mind that Hoffman is indeed worthy of being placed in such rarefied air.
Billy Wagner is getting hosed!
It’s about (Trevor) time!!!
Yeah I don’t get the Hoffman controversy (is it real?). He was one of the greats, and how he did it without any overpowering pitches and for so long is a remarkable baseball feat.
I wonder if anyone remembers one of the more humiliating moments in Hoffman’s career. It was a legendary game.
Bonds and Clemens should of course be permanently banned from Hall induction. As should then Gaylord Perry, Babe Ruth, Pete Rose and anyone else who cheated in the manner of the aforementioned people.
Very happy for Vladimir (just a terrific player and one of the most exciting and watchable and unique and dynamic players of his era), Hoffman (his career numbers are absurdly great—he doesn’t need a post season resume to make it worrthy) and Jones!!
The steroid era went deep…that’s all I’m going to say about it. Don’t be so quick to dismiss so many and lady one player.
Blowing that wild card game against the Rockies? Did something like that happen?
Not one I remember if so. I was thinking of another. A regular season game. The clue is 2006.
I remember that long ago a dodger fan told me that Eric Gagne would wind up with a lot more saves than Trevor Hoffman would. I wish I could communicate with that fan right now.
Yeah good point. I’m an O’s fan (living in LA) and as great and historic as Britton’s 2016 was, its a reminder of how hard consistent excellence really is. It’s one of the things that makes Hoffman (not to mention Mo Rivera) so deserving.
A few years ago on another site, when it was evident that the Phillies would trade Hamels there was speculation he may go to the Dodgers. As always there was fan proposals of “packages”. One name mentioned was Alex Guerrero. One guy told me that even Guerrero for Hamels straight up would be an overpay because Guerrero was a sure fire can’t miss stud who would have a long and all star filled career. Ain’t the internet fun?
Lol, it’s always cringe-worthy to look back at proposals and even trades involving prospects even three years later.
Back in 2013, I had a list of young players who I liked, and the top two guys on the list were Dee Gordon and………..Jemile Weeks
Even the Hamels proposals involving players like Henry Owens, Blake Swihart etc. are like a stack of middle school selfies that you look back at, and laugh and cringe at.
@Cat Mando:
I had a similar exchange with a Yankee fan prior to the 2007 season. He had his team winning the WS, and when I pointed out that Phil Hughes, as an untested rookie, was a question mark, I was told, in no uncertain terms, about how ignorant about baseball I was, and that Hughes was a surefire ace in the making.
@Phillies2017
Talk about cringe worthy, I heard that when ARod was traded to the Yankees, they gave the Rangers a list of low-level prospects from which to choose a player. They selected Joaquin Arias, when Robinson Cano was also on the list. It shows how much a crap shoot grading prospects really is, at least early on.
He was a good reliever that was pretty replaceable for most of his career.
He rode the overvaluation of saves and a (mostly) clean bill of health to the Hall of Fame.
Happy for them. Hoffman should have been in last year. But I still think Bonds and Clemens should join them in upstate New York.
Awesome bunch. Was so fun watching them all play. Wish Edgar, Mussina, Clemens and Bonds got in though.
I doubt he ever gets in, but I also think Fred McGriff could be added to that list. A lot of his numbers aren’t far off from Chippers. Wish he’d get more love from the writers.
Oh yeah, I expanded the list above. 15 guys on that ballot didn’t get in but absolutely belong in – including the Crime Dog!
Moose and Edgar, yes. Clemens and Bonds, NEVER.
Of those 4 only Edgar is a HOFer. Maybe Mussina. Bonds and Clemens would have been in if they didn’t cheat.
Mike Mussina has never been implicated in any steroid accusation or even mentioned in passing at any time throughout the bulk of the steroid era. That is a measurably false assertion. He does not deserve to be lumped in with the same group, though I think the other three should get in as well. But that’s a whole different can of worms.
You know what, I just realized that was a period after Mussina, not a comma. My apologies. Punctuation changes the meaning quite a bit, huh? I agree he’s a somewhat borderline case in some respects, but when you look deeper, he’s definitely worthy from my perspective.
Chipper received 97.2% of the votes according to Mark Bowman.
The link to the official voting results on the BBWAA’s web site is right there, and it clearly states that he got 92.2%.
Edit: And it is now clear that the BBWAA made a typo, ha. The BBWAA lists Jones on 410 of 422 ballots, which is indeed 97.2%. They simply made a manual entry error when typing “92.2 percent.”
Bowman is correct. My apologies. Updating now.
How can anyone leave Chipper off their ballot? Did anyone truly invoke the ‘well he’s getting in with or without my vote, so I’m going to allocate my ration elsewhere.’ method?
Thank you for the apology. I am now an official source for MLB Trade Rumors. Just kidding. Keep up the good work.
@kayrall I would leave them off my ballet because it was a clear bet they were getting in. Just like ken griffey Jr last year. Trevor Hoffman wasn’t a clear bet thing this year.
Does it matter? People for sure left him off for that reason and probably because they feel he doesn’t deserve to be the 1st player to have 100%.
Come on . This is how it is, there is always some jag-off who has to make a point. 3 guys left of Griffy Jr, 5 guys left of Tom Seaver, 6 guys didn’t vote for Nolan Ryan, 8 Guys said no to Cal Ripken. Writers can be some serious douche’s at time and a lot don’t respect the power they have been given.
Yep. Same reason that Griffey didn’t get the 100% last year.
some voters submitted blank ballots, so that is part of it…
This article goes into great depth on one voter’s rationale, for excluding Chip off his ballot.
yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/will-past-controversial-t…
And this is his article explaining why he voted for those 10. (None, Chip)
stltoday.com/sports/columns/jose-de-jesus-ortiz/or…
Why did Chipper get the most votes but Vlad finished with a higher percentage? I still believe it was a typo.
Clearly it was wrong.
I remember when Trevor Hoffman tried out for the football team at U of Arizona and got cut. He ended up being the drum major that year. Didn’t pick up baseball until his sophomore season. Amazing what he went on to become.
Jones only got 92 pct and change. Who were the other 7pct watching??
Voters only get a limited amount of votes, so they don’t vote for the slam dunk candidates so that some of the little guys will have a chance as well.
Yep. More than 10 guys who are deserving are eligible and the ballot is capped at 10.
Some others leave off a slam dunk guy so someone who will get fewer votes doesn’t fall off the ballot.
Also the 92 was a typo, it was 97.
I understand the rationing of votes. It’s an artificial construct of the ten man ballot. It’s something that unfairly hurts vote totals. Also I was going off the typo number.
It’s 97.2%. The BBWAA made a typo in entering his percentage.
It’s still a completely valid question, though, to ask what the other 2.8% were watching. I’ll never understand how some people can stubbornly cling to the mentality that “there’s no such thing as a first-ballot Hall of Famer.”
Chipper Jones is one of the easiest calls in the history of Cooperstown voting.
Amazing that that team had three first ballot HOFers, 15 division titles yet only one World Series win. Really shows how incredibly hard it is to win it all.
Probably voting for one of the most stacked ballots of all-time? Jeez like a dozen more guys should be in and you’re picking on Chipper and his cold cores not getting 100%? Weird.
Justice for Vladyy!! Should have been a first ballot HOF last year.
Vlady in an Expo cap? Coolest logo ever.
Is he going in as an Expo?
Vladimir Guerrero was a great player but I would note that he posted 54.3 fWAR and 59.3 bWAR in 2,147 career games while Edgar Martinez posted 65.5 fWAR and 68.3 bWAR in 2,055 career games.
Guerrero had a career wRC+ of 136 and a career OPS+ of 140 while Martinez had a career wRC+ and career OPS+ of 147 each.
According to Baseball Reference, Guerrero had a career dWAR of a negative 10.7 while Martinez had a career dWAR of a negative 9.7. FanGraphs assigned career defensive scores of a negative 115.0 for Guerrero and a negative 133.5 for Martinez while assigning career offensive scores of 370.2 for Guerrero and 500.8 for Martinez.
Yes he should have been first ballot! What a player!!!!
Not a fan of closers in the Hall but a huge Trevor Hoffman fan so I’m happy.
Those going in deserved it, but overall the HoF voting is a joke. It’s lost credibility. and I just can’t tale it seriously any more.
Imagine the credibility problem baseball would have if it—knowing what it now knows—allowed guys like Clemens and Bonds in.
There are already cheaters in the HoF, and yes, even those that used steroids and other PEDs. Having not gotten caught is no guarantee that anyone is clean. While he was with the D’backs Curt Schilling said just about every guy in the AZ clubhouse was using. The 120 or so players named in the Mitchell report was basically from one source, in one team’s clubhouse, but now suddenly it’s only a handful of guys. Yeah tight. I can guarantee you at least one and probably more of your favorite players cheated with PEDs. The hypocrisy of it all stinks.
“The 120 or so players named in the Mitchell report was basically from one source, in one team’s clubhouse,”
Read it and learn.
files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf
I have read the Mitchell Report. Read my post again. I said “basically” and I stand by that. There were a few isolated incidents, Cabrera in AZ, Segui in KC, Palmeiro, and the less than dozen names from Balco,etc.. But the vast majority of the names in the report came from Kirk Radomski. The list we saw in the report was just the tip of the iceberg. Believing that list was close to all the users is just fooling yourself.
Why is Mussina that close? When did this become the Hall of Very Good?!?!
Congrats to all but especially Chipper
Clemens & Bonds of course both do belong but I would not be upset if it took until their final year of eligibility for the whole steroid fuss also would set a precedent for when ARod comes up and Manny as well
Suprised Edgar didn’t make it he is deserving as is Crime Dog, Schilling, Mussina & Wagner. Gonna be tough for Wagner because Hoffman this year & Mariano next. I don’t see 2 closers getting in the same year.
Obvious that Jones will go into the Hall as a Brave and Hoffman as a Padre. Will Thome go in as an Indian? What about Guerrero?
Montreal.
Naw, he’ll go in as an Angel where he had his MVP season.
He had his best seasons in Montreal. His top 3 seasons by WAR and OPS were as an Expo.
I have to agree that he’s most likely to go in as an Expo, and unless the veterans committee inducts an old Montreal player some time in the future, only Bartolo Colon and Larry Walker will remain as potential future Expo Hall of Famers.
No doubt Thome will go in as an Indian.
Poor Edgar. One year left for him. But he likely gets in next year with Mariano, who has said (along with Pedro) that Edgar was the toughest hitter they ever faced.
Edgar and Mussina got hosed too.
Edgar will get in next year. Mussina either next year or the year after.
The former players like Joe Morgan that vote for the HOF are hypocrites. We all know their was one form of drug use or another used throughout the history of the game. Whether it was uppers or coke athletes will do whatever it takes to get through the grind.
Chipper! We now have our second #1 overall draft pick to make the HOF
Don’t care about the Hall until Bonds and Clemens get in.
If Piazza and Pudge are in, Bonds and Clemens are in.
There’s just as much evidence of Piazza and Pudge doing PEDs as Bonds and Clemens.
No there isn’t.
Kick/keep all of them out.
Right! No there isn’t. Particularly, Piazza. Oh wait! He had a rash on his back. Hang him at the airport.
The Piazza/Bagwell hate by idiot fans is so infuriating. They literally got persecuted for being good baseball players at the wrong time to be a good baseball player.
Why must we let the nonsense people have the most say?
I don’t hate Piazza and Bagwell for being good. In fact I don’t hate either one, and I’m glad they’re the Hall. But to say they’re persecuted for being good misses the mark. It’s that they suddenly became very good, along with a power surge that wasn’t there before. Bagwell goes from averaging 19 HRs, and a .464 SLG. per season in his first 3 seasons to averaging 41 HRs, and a .589 SLG. per year.
And it’s very hard to believe that all the scouts were so wrong about Piazza, that he gets drafted in the 62nd round, and then only as a favor to Tommy Lasorda who was friends with Piazza’s dad. Then he goes from an SLG. of .444, then .390, with 14 HRs in his first 2 years to a .540 SLG and 29 HRs in his 3rd year.
I think they used PEDs, but MLB was rife with usage. The field was fairly level. But I think if they’re in, along with Pudge Rodriguez then Bonds and Clemens belong as well.
And I’m a guy that absolutely detests Clemens.
If there was as little evidence against Bonds and Clemens as there is against Piazza and Pudge, Bonds and Clemens would already be in.
Bonds admitted using them in court. He was named in the Mitchell report. Case closed. Clemens was named in the Mitchell report. Case closed. They don’t belong in the HOF unless they are buying a ticket to visit.
Piazza and Pudge never admitted using them nor were they named in the Mitchell report.
The Mitchell Report named 120 or so players. That was basically from one source, one guy in one team’s clubhouse. If you think the Mitchell Report came close to the breadth of PED usage in baseball you’re naive.
tad2b13…….once again…read it and then come back as say it was basically one guy.
files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf
Once again I have read the report, and the vast majority of the players named came from one source, Kirk Radomski. How do you justify Curt Schilling saying just about everyone in the AZ clubhouse was using, and that he didn’t want to slap teammates on the butt, because that’s where they received their steroid shots, to only one D’back Alex Cabrera being called out, because his shipment to the AZ clubhouse was discovered?
Why did the Mitchell Report completely miss what was going on with Biogenesis? The mitchell Report was the tip of the iceberg.
And what proof is that?
Theoretically there is proof of Piazza who admitted it in his own autobiography that he took PED’s (though he said they were legal ones)
Bonds and Clemens will probably never get voted in but they’ll get in anyway through the veterans committee.
Hopefully, you are right about the first part. They never get in.
Bonds and Clemens have absolutely no chance of the Veterans Committee voting them in. Their only chance is the writers and the writers have made it clear cheaters don’t belong.
Selig is in. Might as well put in the players.
Cheaters like Bonds and Clemens are criminals that stole money and spotlight from clean players. They stole the chance to make the HOF from legitimate players like Fred McGriff. It is nice that the voters are recognizing that they do not belong. They will never get inducted.
You have absolutely no idea who is clean. Not having been caught doesn’t make a player clean. There are PED users in the Hall that simply didn’t get caught. Undoubtedly many more than you realize.
How can people justify voting for Carlos Lee or Livan Hernandez on this stacked ballot? Jamie Moyer with 10 votes? Getting a HOF vote is an honor, but when there is a limit of 10, guys can get hurt by votes like that.
Carlos Lee should have gotten at least 50 percent of votes this year. (I had him in line to get in next year, but I guess then two years is more realistic.)
Huh? Carlos Lee got 1 vote. He’s not getting in.
Is this a joke??
That Carlos Lee got a vote? Yes, that is a joke and its garbage like that that kept Edgar out.
Many of the voters are petty and infuriatingly stupid. If you actually read what these writers write, you would be so mad at how incompetent many of them are.
I cannot wait until all the voters are under 50 years old (the first generation who grew up without ESPN promoting anti-PED stories and making like these men out to be murderers 24-7) and no one really cares about drug use when it comes to the HOF, a place with an 80’s player who enjoyed cocaine so much he kept a glass vial full of it in his back pocket and dove in headfirst to preserve it. Congrats to Tim Raines, Hall of Famer. He deserved it.
How about we take the idiot writers out of it. Current HoFs should have the majority of the vote with a ballot for players who have been retired for four or more years with 7 years of service or more. And a ballot for broadcasters who have covered baseball exclusively for 7 or more years.
Take the writers out of it and you take the politics out of it and the choice is made by the baseball warriors only.
Just let better writers who understand metrics do it.
People hate the concept of letting in the top 100 in WAR but honestly, if you run down the list, all of them had long stretches of being elite MLB players, so what’s the big deal? Bruce Sutter had 8 elite years and 3 awful ones and he’s in.
Mussina will get in for sure. I always considered Jack Morris, and Jim Rice as the two barriers that needed to be broken to allow people that honestly do not belong in the Hall of Fame to get in and a starter and hitter. Just my honest opinion but Morris simply wasn’t a Hall of Famer, just a hall of very good player. Those stats just are not all that dominant outside of wins for his time period, let alone any other time period. I am saying that as a kid that grew up loving the guy. I grew up a Red Sox fan, and Jim Rice was the player that made me want to be a baseball player, along with Eck in those years. Jim Rice was a great player but the career places him right at the mark of being very good, not hall of fame. Mussina is better then Morris, so there you go.
Schilling is better than Morris too. In no way should Morris be in in the HOF, same with Tim Raines.
But they are. And that is not changing. But there are many guys from the 20s, 30s, and 40s that probably shouldn’t be in there either and it really hasn’t hurt anyone with them being included. The more players that get included means fewer players get forgotten in 50 years. This is the history of something I love dearly and I hope it gets remembered long after I have departed.
Congrats to my fav of alll time!! You made me a Braves fan back in the tbs days and a lifelong diehard Braves fan, miss seeing you out there every season..
How did Johnny Damon only get 8 votes. 2700 hits is no small feat. Not saying he is hof worthy but only 8 votes?
Ballot is LOADED. Totally jammed up with worthy guys. No room for sympathy votes for guys who were very good but will pretty clearly not ever get in.
theres a bunch more deserving guys on the ballot. Hes a victim of the system
Yep. Like Johan who unfortunately was one and done.
So happy to see more then one go into the Hall. Congrats to those guys!
All 4 deserve in. Hoffman deserved a first ballot treatment though. Moose will likely get in within 3 years, if he hits 70% he’ll be in the year after. I suspect Clemens and Bonds will get in on year 10. Other than that the only question is what happens to Vizquel over the years.
Mariano (lock), Helton, and Halladay are the big names next year. Jeter (lock) and Giambi the year after. No greats the year after. And then Arod and Ortiz will bring out big debates.
Edgar Martinez missing the HOF, arguably..maybe not even arguably, just the best DH all time is what got people angry the most— Finished 14 votes shy.
WFAN 660 incorrectly said 14 votes short (Initially….) Radio guys don’t fact check anymore :/
Actual number is 20 short.
Still not right.. hope he gets in!
I love how Morris who almost had a career 4 era gets in but not mussina, What a joke. You can even argue that he was better than glavine
Other than that congrats to the entries this year !!
Missions is a joke to get it, omg a real joke. He was a selfish player only caring about his stats n not the team.
Mike Mussina is HOF’er. Easy call.
Too many in hall, it is getting watered dow, should be called Hall of Very Good.
These 4 I don’t mind. Jack Morris, I mind.
It’s been the Hall of Very Good for a long, long time my friend.
Trevor HOFfman.
Somebody needed to say it.
As long as it’s taken Edgar to get in (which he still hasn’t !!!) it better take years for Ortiz to get in
If you let Bud Selig disgrace the game and give him his own personal shrine in Cooperstown…. well then, any player omission on the basis of steroids is completely hypocritical
Roger Clemens should be in the HOF. When he was in Boston most of his career he put HOF numbers up. Just his doing that should be enough. His career later was remarkable too. As I heard Burns today say others are in the Hall why shouldn’t he be? I feel strongly about it just like I am angry the Redsox ownership has not retired his number. I am disgusted withe the ownership. His number n Shillings number should be celebrated like others have.
So many of the writers (including many I really respect) are (intentionally or not) playing a Trojan Horse shell game.
When guys like Pudge, Piazza, etc. were up for the HOF, they said “there is no proof they did steroids, you can’t punish them” and they voted them into the HOF.
Then one or two years later they say “there are already PED users in the HOF like Piazza and Pudge so you can’t punish Bonds, Clemens, etc.”
We can’t solve every crime, should we let the criminals we do convict go because it’s unfair to them that other people got away with their crimes? Absurd argument.
That whole argument is around integrity. The integrity of the Hall is already compromised because there are clearly at least some “cheaters” in the hall already. If you kicked out the obvious “potential” PED users, then sure.. but you can’t have it both ways. Either they’re in, or they’re out.
All 4 used some form of performance enhancing. If you disagree then:
1. Prove they didn’t
2. Go feed ur unicorn
Jim Thome didn’t use anything. Hes like griffey the same time his whole career.
They all used. And they’ll all deny it. And all you suckers will believe them. Ivan, piazza and bagwell? You believe them?
The unicorn is still hungry
Bagwell seemed like one of the PED users, Clemens should be in, n Bonds, no question. Musina, no. He was not the pitcher Shilling was, when it counted. He was good, not one I feared when he pitched against the Bosox.
Prove that they did.
There was a test in medieval times. Throw a woman in water, if she drowns (and dies) she’s innocent and if she floats then she’s a witch and should be executed.
If you don’t see a parallel, feed your troll.
Wow! The old witchy woman parallel. I didn’t think of that. But I will wear purple.
It doesn’t matter if they did. Baseball is a skill and team game.
I didn’t say I didn’t agree with the selections of the last 2 years. I believe they deserved selection. I’m just tired of hearing how they didn’t “cheat”.
You are sure that everyone cheated because there is no proof that shows they didn’t? That’s got to be some sort of fallacy or something.
Rule 5 says otherwise. Character, integrity and sportsmanship are requirements of inclusion in the Hall of Fame. Using steroids or hgh or any other illegal PED disqualifies a player from consideration entirely.
Edgar Martinez should have gotten in too. Lee Smith is a HOFer as well. They vote in the 2nd all time saves leader but not the 3rd all time saves leader. Makes no sense.
Can’t believe Mario Mendoza still has not made the HOF yet…. :(. He even has a baseball term named for him and yet can’t get any votes….
You need to wait for Tommy John to get in first.
Wagner Despite having bad post season numbers (with many more chances than hoffman) he was the better pitcher over a long time period and should have gotten in
These are good choices. Chipper is obvious, Thome has slugging stats that no “clean” player has ever been denied the HOF with, Vlad wouldn’t be inner circle for me, but very much a top tier player. Hoffman I could go either way on. I do think if given the choice of picking Hoffman for a career as opposed to either Mussina or Schilling, I would have gone for the two starters. I don’t have much sympathy for the juicers, particularly Sosa and Manny. I expect Bonds and Clemens will make it eventually.
Jones one of the greatest of all time! Go braves !!!
My sentiments echo those of many other commenters here: Edgar and Mussina deserve to be in. The arguments that downplay the significance of a DH are flawed, as they focus on physical stress of playing the field, but they fail to acknowledge the benefits of playing the field; being able to stay loose and focused. I would argue there’s mental stress being a DH; sitting on the bench the majority of the game with nothing to do but overthink things, which would explain why so few DH’s have been elite hitters and rarely dominate. Ortiz and Cruz have made it look easy, but not many have been able to do very long.
Strong class. Glad the obvious roiders are kept out again.
I would take out Morris and rice among others from the hall of fame
Wow, those who argue against hoffman must not be very bright if 200 innings and 128 post season appearences are your sticking points.
The biggest argument against him being in is he pitched 200 innings less than rivera? In riveras 2nd season he posted 107.1 innings……and pitched an additional season of 44 innings. That mostly accounts for 150 innings worth of difference.
Also, 128 post season appearences…. Yankees paid for championships padres didnt. Idk how its hoffmans fault the padres didnt or couldnt afford to get to the post season.
Yea they paid for those titles despite developing their core from their farm ………..
David Cone
Kenny Rodgers
Daryl Strawberry
Dwight Gooden in the dynasty years
mike mussina, jason giambi, matsui, sheffield, wang, contreras, farnsworth, damon.
I mean, kinda forgot to mention all those hefty free agents over the years man that helped marino get to the post season 128 times.
Mariano won all of his titles except for 2009 before the Yankees spent tons of money after 2001, that’s my point. You can’t claim they just signed everyone during those years when. That’s not true. They made tons of good trades and great call ups from the minor league system
Ironically the more they spent the less titles they won after the dynasty years
By paid for championships I mean they went out and paid big money to key players…..which they did. Regardless if they actually won championships they spent with the intent to win them.
Also, a lot of trades they made they did so taking on financial obligations other clubs couldn’t. They paid Paul O Neil 4 years 19 mill 2 years after trading for him days before he hit FA and gave hefty extensions at times to players they traded for that would beat what they’d receive on the open market. Hence the paid for championships during the dynasty years.
Farm system
Bernie
Posada
Jeter
Mendoza
Rivera
Pettite
Trade
Stanton
Wetteland
Nelson
Knoblauch
O’neal
Brosius
Martinez
Clemens
Justice (huge trade in 2000)
Free agent
Mike Stanton
David Wells
Orlando Hernandez
Yea that’s lots of “buying” during the dynasty years there …..
The most unforgivable part of the PED era is that everybody is now always a suspect, and most of them do not deserve it.
Ken Caminiti, were he still alive, would disagree. He estimated one-half of the players in MLB were using PEDs, By his accounting, only half don;t deserve it and the other half do. But I’m sure you believe you know who is clean right?
This is **exactly** what I’m talking about.
“But I’m sure you believe you know who is clean right?”
Add a “not” in there. Turnabout is fair play.
I’m sure you like how easy it is to work with the premise that half of everyone in the era was using. You have a 50/50 shot of being right, and if you’re wrong, nobody can go back and prove a negative anyway. Anybody could be in that half. That’s a nice drop-in alternative to thinking critically about it, anyway. All the more time to devote to mentally preparing for corn-on-the-cob eating contests or whatever it is you do in your spare time.
Frankly I don’t care. If it can’t be articulated with a reasonable level of particularity why someone is a PED suspect, I’m not going down that road. I’m not going to accuse them just because it’s easy and provides an opportunity to sound self-righteous on the internet. Obviously lots of players are tied to PEDs for very specific reasons. Most players aren’t. Are there users that never got one ounce of notoriety out of it? I’m sure there are. But I’m not just going to accuse whoever I want of PED use just because I feel like it.
The integrity of the entire era is compromised. All we have left is knowing that **some** of them were clean, and so it wouldn’t kill anyone to act like human being from time to time, giving the benefit of the doubt to players who have never been tied to PEDs. Getting angry at them will not make the known cheaters go back in time and fix the roid era.
No Barry Bonds means it’s not really the hall of fame.
Because he really, really, really thought it was flaxseed oil?
Obviously there’s always gonna be snubs for the hall of fame, and people who get in, despite deserving it:
At this point, I don’t see any reason not to elect Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens etc. Back then it wasn’t regulated. Don’t blame the player, blame the framework of the rules at the time.
Using an example, let’s say a study on a vitamin supplement currently allowed by the MLB came out and said that it unfairly enhanced the ability of those who took it. Would you retroactively punish, say Mike Trout, for using that supplement before it was banned? Bonds still leads the major leagues in home runs of all time, Palmiero still collected 3,000 hits, it just makes no sense.
Moving on, however, I am surprised that Santana did not receive enough votes to even stay on the ballot. While he may not be a hall of famer, the fact that he got 10 votes is unexpected.
If I had to fill out a ballot for this year, mine would be rather straightforward:
Martinez, Mussina, Hoffman, Wagner ,McGriff, Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Rolen and Manny
I wouldn’t have voted for Chipper, Vlad or Thome simply because it was a fact that they were going to get in regardless, and my philosophy would be to “spread the love” if that makes any sense.
And yes, I understand that if everyone used my method then guys like Vlad, Chipper Thome wouldn’t get in, but the whole point is that nobody else would do it.
Nevertheless, congratulations to the guys who got in, these guys are all exceptionally worthy!
I’ll never forget the time Chipper called my friend a meatsock on Twitter, lol!
Rule 5. Read it. They do not qualify under 3 of the 5 qualification.
As Clinton Yates said about keeping great players out, that’s the oldest, old-man argument in Oldmanganistan.
The Bill James “it wasn’t regulated, it wasn’t enforced” argument is the single stupidest thing I’ve ever heard a smart person say.
It was regulated, it was (and is) illegal. Doesn’t get any more regulated than illegal.
It wasn’t enforced? Congress had hearings over it. Congress. The FBI spent years on it.
EVERY SINGLE PLAYER playing in that era knew full well that steroids were not allowed, which is why the users all hid it and to this very day will not admit to it.
“It was regulated, it was (and is) illegal. Doesn’t get any more regulated than illegal.”
So none of the known amphetamine users belong in the Hall? Are the stats they compiled while amped up on greenies tainted?
“So none of the known amphetamine users belong in the Hall? Are the stats they compiled while amped up on greenies tainted?”
So instead of trying to improve we should maintain the schoolyard mantra of “But…but…Johnny did bad things too?” As I have said before….We can’t change history but we can prevent the mistakes of the past from recurring.
The “but there are guys who used greenies in the hall” argument is on the same level as “But Rose never bet against his team”
Except we can change who is in the Hall. Their plaques can be removed.
It is a clear double-standard to allow known cheaters from the past to remain while preventing modern-day offenders from being allowed in.
Or we could act like adults and learn
I refuse to go to a game until Edgar and Rose are inducted. I’ll show ‘em!
I was always a fan of Vlad. Glad i got to see him play when he signed with Baltimore
Edgar career WAR: 68, Jeter career WAR: 71.
Jeter will be 1st ballot bc he was a Yankee SS, Edgar will have to wait until his 10th year before making it.
Edgar shouldnt make it at all. He deseves it as much as a bullpen catcher. Not a real ballplayer
So do none of his home runs count? Thats just an ignorant comment.
Chris Carpenter was a one and done are you fxxxxng kidding me?? He’s a hell of a lot more deserving than a dh that got 70% on the vote (e.martinez).
Edgar is more deserving than Carpenter. Carpenter has a career era of 3.76. Take a look at some of the comparisons on baseball reference. Not saying Carpenter isn’t worthy but a career .312 over 17 seasons is more worthy imo.
Not to mention his .413 career OBP.
A lifelong dh is only half of a baseball player in my eyes. Imagine a ted williams, dimaggio, musial, or gwynn that didnt have to worry about playing his position. They wouldve hit .400 for 10 years straight. Stats are very misconstrued when theyre only doing half their job. A true baseball fan knows this is true
What evidence is there that not playing the field results in that kind of increase in offensive production?
Try comparing offensive stats with and without the dh and then try picking up a glove there csi.
Wow, you’re going to use DHs vs. pitchers hitting as an argument that fielders hit insanely better when they’re full-time DH’s? C’mon bro.
No edgar is not more deserving. Carpenter was a cy young candidate for more than 5 years and led his team to 2 world series titles. And truly led by his outstanding pitching and leadership. Martinez had one big hit that really mattered and it was a one game playoff. Martinez had really good stats for a part time player but is a far reach as a hof’er imo
I love the comparison of Bonds HR total in Pittsburgh vs SF. There is someone very obvious that has never been linked to steroids that makes me wonder. Take a look at David Ortiz in Minnesota vs Boston.
Ortiz has most definitely been linked to steroids before…
Glad to see Vladdy get in, he could be the first player in the HOF wearing an angels hat.
I’d love to see him wearing a Angels batting helmet, covered in pine tar. Those helmets cracked me up. He was a heck of a fun player to watch. He could hit bad pitches better than anyone. Can’t believe that he is in his low 40’s. For some reason I thought he was older when he retired. Most of have been due to the way he ran with his bad knees.
As much as I’d like to see Edgar Martinez in the HOF, if he never makes it fine. However, this means that Ortiz should never be in either.
DH’s stats need an *. They have a bigger advantage than steroid players. PTP’S
Ortiz’s stats wouldnt be close to what they are if he played full time everyday
Great class, although vlad should have been in last year as a first ballot.
I like Vlad but he is NOT a HOF. How does he get in with 449 homers in the live ball era?
Mussina is another guy who was good but won 20 games once and never made a name in the post season. He had a losing record in the post season and he was on the great Yankee teams.
Schilling is similar to Catfish Hunter. Had some great season, fairly consistent and a monster in the post season. Yet Hunter got in and Schilling is on the outside looking in.
Fred McGriff has the same problem Dwight Evans has. Consistent with the bat and was up there for his era in a few categories but just doesn’t get the respect for being a B level player. Their defense doesn’t get taken into account. McGriff also gets hurt by his career overlapping with the steroid era.
Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Palmeiro, McGwire and Bonds are the face of the steroid era. It may come down to the Veteran’s Committee for Bonds and Clemens. The rest are plutonium.
Sheffield is another border line guy. 22 years, mostly in the steroid era, and he only got 509 homers.
Edgar Martinez stuck a dagger in my heart in 1995, but he deserves to be in the Hall.
In a sane society, Trevor Hoffman would have easily been a first ballot hall of famer. Him and Mariano are 1a and 1b on the list of greatest relief pitchers of all time.
Not really. The only thing that makes Hoff that much better than Billy Wagner is saves total. Even Jon Papelbon had a better ERA, Fip, K/9, BB/9, HR/9 and basically the same H/9.
Sorry, but Thome is not a HOFer to me. Great HR hitter, but one-dimensional. The HOF has a lot of players who don’t belong there (Santo, Tony Perez, Wilhelm, Rizzuto, Rice, Sutter to name a few). Gotten way too watered-down.
Thome is hardly one dimensional. Hes 7th all time in walks and 8th all time in home runs. He has a higher HR total and OBP for his career than Miggy and Pujols
I think Thome should have made The HOF, but not first ballot.
Thome doesn’t even drive a car. Tractor, slow, steady and always reaping the harvest.
If you would like to discuss one dimensional players, how about every designated hitter.
Almost no doubt next year, Mariano Rivera makes it in first ballot, and so does Roy Halladay (RIP).
Morris getting in means tons of pitchers like Halliday, moose and shilling should all get in. I mean all three were better than Morris after all
Let me ask a question here. How do the hall of fame voters know that chipper, Thome, Vlady, and Hoffman did not use steroids? They played in the steroid era? We just assume bonds and Clemens did but these didn’t. Doesn’t seem logical
Hard to believe that is a serious question but since it seems to be here is a little light reading for you…there is plenty more if you like
files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf
Once again the Mitchell Report was the tip of the iceberg. The vast majority of the named players came from Kirk Radomski. The Biogensis Lab was missed by the Mitchell investigation being exposed afterward. How many other labs, or users did they miss? But most importantly, the premise that not being named in the Mitchell Report exonerates anyone, is completely wrong. The report did not exonerate anyone.
The writers who voted for known “greenie” users who refuse to vote for known (or alleged) PED users are massive hypocrites.
Same for the players. (Looking at you in particular, Frank Thomas.)
Or maybe they are learning from their mistakes.
Trying to progress, improve and make things better. But no, they’re “massive hypocrites”.
How do you put Hoffman in, but not Wagner? If you told me today you had two rookie relievers and their careers were going to end up like this.
Player A: 16 seasons, 903 IP, 11.9 K/9, 3.0 BB/9, 0.8 HR/9, 2.31 ERA, 187 ERA+, 2.73 FIP
Player B: 18 seasons, 1089 IP, 9.4 K/9, 2.5 BB/9, 0.8 HR/9, 2.87 ERA, 141 ERA+, 3.08 FIP
I would take player A everytime. He was a more dominant player, even if he threw 180 less innings. The idea that at least 7 out of 10 HOF voters see player B as an all time great and not player A is mind boggling to me.
I’m disappointed by all the east and left coast bias . The was a lot of great ball players in flyover country that will never make the list.Ted Simmons,Fred Mcgriff, Edgar Martinez Mark McGwire ,Larry Walker Lou Whitaker ,Dick Allen ,Sammy freaking Sosa,And put his freaking cork bat right next to him. He and McGwire saved baseball give them a break.And that the award ceremony make them iPhone app and make Sammy put his old face back on. If you don’t agree with my steroid guys fine but the other guys definitely should be in the Hall of Fame
+1 for the Sosa joke. But -1 for everything else.