The offseason continues to move painfully slowly. With spring training on the horizon, there’s not much time left for the staring contest between teams and players to break. Indeed, the past week has yielded more news by way of shouting from players, agents and union reps than by way of actual major league signings. We’ve collected some of the reactions from around the baseball community…
- As one might expect, the colorfully hyperbolic Scott Boras has offered his input on the subject (via Bob Nightengale of USA Today Sports), comparing the market phenomenon to the act of murder. “The difference between an accident and murder is intent,” Boras says. “Teams are intentionally murdering seasons and fans are dying with it.” Boras also says that the biggest issue is competition, adding that losing is only acceptable if there is an actual effort to win.
- “The list of available free agents could fill out a 25-man roster and contend for a playoff spot,” writes Rustin Dodd of the Kansas City Star. Dodd also includes quotes from Peter Moylan, which provide some interesting insight into the point of view of a lower-tier MLB free agent. Moylan describes his situation in terms of the uncertainty, telling Dodd that the only thing that is a “little frustrating” is the unknown. Moylan’s examples of the unknown include not knowing where he’ll be in two weeks, not knowing where he’ll be playing during the regular season, and the resulting inability to line up housing for either. The 39-year-old righty pitched to a 3.49 ERA across 59 1/3 innings last year for the Royals, and has publicly stated his desire to remain with the team.
- The MLBPA is “laying the dynamite around itself” with its threats of spring training boycotts and accusations of collusion, writes Ken Davidoff of the New York Post. Davidoff describes Brodie Van Wagenen’s recent statement as a “boiling point of sorts,” and wonders what can possibly be accomplished by all this “saber-rattling.” Davidoff seems to downplay the anger and threats from the union and player representatives, pointing out (by way of recent words from Brandon Moss) that they chose to sign a collective bargaining agreement that rewards tanking and penalizes clubs for spending too much.
- Tom Verducci of Sports Illustrated opines that the players “bargained for luxury, not labor” in his take on the subject. Verducci also highlights Moss’ words, describing the current CBA as “the deal that stiffened the soft cap created by a luxury tax threshold that hasn’t come close to keeping up with growth in revenues and payrolls.” He adds that the union celebrated something of a “Pyrrhic win” in its prevention of an international draft, which Verducci calls a bluff.
- The mystery of the bizarre offseason before us can’t be solved by simply crying “collusion,” Ben Nicholson-Smith of Sportsnet.ca writes, drawing attention to multiple factors in this offseason’s pace in a piece that’s definitely worth a full read. Some of those factors include a logjam at the top of the market (perhaps caused by CBA incentives for teams to tighten their purse strings), and the perceived value of youth in baseball.
- For his part, Cubs GM Jed Hoyer is surprised that he’s headed to Arizona with so much offseason left to go. In an interview with Jesse Rogers of ESPN, Hoyer chalks the hot stove freeze up to something that seems quite simple on the surface: both players and teams feel justified in their positions. “Every team has their internal rankings,” he tells Rogers. “Every team has their evaluations which they will never reveal. Those rankings guide them through the market. Both sides of the market can always move or activate and free things up. To this point, we haven’t gotten there.”
Brodie Van Wagenen is going to be singularly responsible for the dumbest strike in history.
A smarter strategy would be for MLBPA to be advocating on behalf of minor league pay, which is peanuts, and player salaries during those first 6 seasons. Most of the best players right now are underpaid because of the way compensation is structured during those first six years. That seems like a war worth waging, and presumptively, a rising tide would lift all boats.
But to make this about one-dimensional players, who want to be paid big-bucks for their twilight years, that seems like a losing position, and a public relations fumble .
But everyone is relatively underpaid during the early parts of their career in any position. Once you get experience, then you can command more money. The main difference, of course, is that we are free to persue any opportunity, while ballplayers are basically slaves.
Comparing workers in an industry where the minimum pay (for major league players) is over $500K to slavery is an incredible insult to men, women and children who have experienced actual slavery. How is being paid any amount of money comparable to being raped 20 times a day?
I believe remember thecoop was using an analogy, albeit a dumb one. However, if as you suggest slaves were raped 20 times per day, how did anything else, like say work ever get done. Sounds like you were both using hyperbole.
Well said, fox. Ridiculous response to a silly comment. Quit with the overreacting snowflake propaganda and hyperbolic whining. Slaves were treated horribly and abused beyond what most could imagine enduring, but they werent raped 20 times a day; probably not 20x in their entire lives.
To be fair, MLB players don’t enjoy the same freedom most Americans do as far as employment. They are forced to work for the only relevant baseball organization in the country. So when situations like this offseason arise, they understandably feel cheated. But clearly overall, they are well compensated and most are not complaining about their careers as even the league minimum is much better than 99% of Americans earn.
Slaves did not make an minimum of 560K per year.
Please do not use that stupid analogy again.
The players are basically slaves? LOFL. Please say that in front of some black lives matter protest. Please.
Are they underpaid during their first couple yrs? Yes some of them. Take Starting pitchers for example no. You don’t even get the players full potential cause these guys are babied the first 3 years. Acting as tho these players are being paided minmum wage though and saying they’re slaves is just stupid and most of all ignorant.
Do you understand what minor league players make? It is less than minimum wage.
They can’t go to any team they want. They are the property of the MLB team that drafted them or signed them. They often live 4 or even 6 to a 2 bedroom apartment just to make ends meet. They subsist on a peanut butter and ramen diet, although teams are realizing that is stupid to treat their investment like that and some minor league teams are providing one meal a day in the clubhouse. They often travel 4 or more hours a from game to game in a bus after playing a game that night. A typical day is arriving at the stadium before 10 am, work out, practice, play in the game, back to home or hotel at midnight. For that they get paid $1100 to $2150 per month.
Go out there and learn about the reality of the 1st 5-6 years of “professional baseball”. It’s not roses and champagne. Its peanut butter and sweat.
Ballplayers are slaves?
That is a vacuously stupid comment. Actually it’s beyond vacuously stupid.
They are not kept in bondage. They can go get a job doing something else.
You cannot possibly believe that.
And while that all really sucks and they deserve better, I doubt any would give it up. The chance to play in the pros is a huge deal. The best of the best get paid big.
Don’t talk about what you don’t know about. Many minor leaguers stay as rent-free guests with hosts lined up by their teams. I know people in minor league cities who have been such hosts.
These players subject themselves to the pay they receive and the conditions they face. If they don’t like it, they can go into another profession. They’re not forced to enter the draft or sign a contract.
But on top of that, there are so many minor league players that to really give them what they may see as a proper wage would ensure that teams would have to be contracted. Small market teams struggle as is. And let’s not forget that the cream of the crop get sizeable signing bonuses.
no they aren’t comparable to slaves. slaves never had the right to choose their employer or to negotiate and sign a contract. the only thing that might limit a players right is when they are drafted and under team control for 6 years. still…. not comparable to slavery. i won’t make thud into Mir than it is but kind of an insensitive thing to say during blsck history month when you consider the atrocities that actual slaves suffered thru in America, and thought history around the world too (since slavery wasn’t limited to just those brought from Africa?).
Shame the MLBPA, it’s directors and it’s membership, don’t care about them at all, huh?
As long as they have executive chefs in every clubhouse and Eric Hosmer gets an 8 year deal, no need to worry about the minor leaguers.
Ironically, the PA would be stronger if they did, but they don’t.
Top free agents also subject themselves to the pay they receive and the conditions they face. If they don’t like the offers they can also go into another profession.
I kind of agree with what you say about the danger of minor league teams contracting, but the purpose of the players union should not only to be protection of the players at the top of the food chain. Unions have never been needed for those guys. Once upon a time unions were for people who had little to no money or power unless they banded together — like before the era of free agency.
Slaves? You said players making hundreds of millions are slaves. Idiot!
20 times per day …. hhhmmm … thats a lot
There is not one person alive who has experienced slavery ! But I get what you were talking about! You can’t compare it to slavery at all!
Boo hoo. They chose that line of work. They are free to get an education a compete for jobs like the rest of us.
actually slaves never made Any money. Not comparable.
Sorry but you are wrong. Slavery exists today but it’s called human trafficking.
Uhh, you have a choice as a ball player to simply not be a ball player if you dont like what the pay scale is. Simply put, most do it, because of how overpaid the industry is. It’s a crying shame what sports players make in this country. Way over estimating there worth. And never will I feel bad for whiney millionaires wanting more and more millions.
Minor leaguers are not part of the MLBPA. They are not legally allowed to advocate for minor league players.
They can advocate to have free agency come earlier, but the owners will not do that. Those 6 years are the owner’s cash cow when they pay players so far below the prevailing wage for their performance.
The lack of understanding of what unions are and can do is staggering.
The current players wouldn’t bargain for minor league players anyway, the current players just ask what’s in it for me. They’ve made it. Players aren’t worried about future generations or the game in general.
First, many of those minor leaguers, are future major leaguers, and thus, future members of MLBPA.
Second, the MLBPA could change its internal rules to admit some, or all of the 4000+ minor league players, and expand the scope of its advocacy.
While the MLBPA doesn’t directly advocate for minor leaguers, they are trying to help them out. That’s one reason they keep advocating to make the MLB active roster larger. If every team went to 26 players, that’s another 30 minor leaguers making half a million.
teams spend tens of millions on players who haven’t proved anything past the high school or college levels. maybe you can raise the minimum that minor league players earn a b maybe provide some sort of post career pay for those who might be career minor leaguers but i don’t think there’s a need to reduce the years of team control. the majority of these guys never make out to the majors. those that do have more than likely received a pretty good signing bonus or free agent contract. The owners deserve those 6 years for some cost certainty. These guys get there paydays. i would not budge a bit if I’m ownership unless they make some concessions elsewhere. Making contracts over a certain amount of years or total contract value void-able in cases of long term injuries or tremendous falloff in performance would be an area of concern. Or… have max contract limits in place according to age or service time like the nba.
Mlb is the BEST sport in existence when it comes to benefiting the player.
One of the smartest post I’ve read on here! I agree!
Or maybe fans should stop cheering when their team tanks for 4 years with zero guarantee it will work. And by the numbers if 12 teams are tanking then there are going to be some very disappointed fans. There is a faction of royals fans who are a perfect example. they are worried dayton is going to screw it up by not trading every player they have worth a damn.
Does anyone have a complete list of Players that Scott Boras currently represents?
See Agent Database in the right column.
The role of Boras in all of this is massively overrated. He may be most theatrical of the agents and a loudmouth but he’s only one of many agents representing players. As Bill Shaiken reports, agents who are not Scott Boras and normally a lot less vocal are also registering their complains about the structure of the current CBA and how it tilts heavily towards the owners.
latimes.com/sports/mlb/la-sp-major-league-baseball…
This seems way more significant that anything Boras is saying because Boras is always saying something.
isn’t the big rumor that teams are trying to save for next off season when all the big time names are FA?
No.
Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, Cubs and Giants are 100% __out__ on Bryce Harper and Manny Machado. Zero chance of any of those teams signing either.
MLB has an effective salary cap.
They’re not 100% out. Please don’t make up things.
Okay, only 98% out. Happy?
Wrong.
Read an earlier article they can still sign Harper and trade Stanton… to your Dodgers.
So I’m not comfortable assigning 98-100% percentile
Why would the Dodgers do that? Harper is younger and they’d only pay him maybe 7 million more a year
Teams will not care to pay a luxury tax in 2019. They only care about resetting their tax bracket in 2018, which will save them millions moving forward and won’t affect their draft position from moving down 10 slots. Every wealthy team in baseball is planning on spending heavily after this next year. The people crying about this years slow offseason should blame the agreed upon CBA for forcing teams to try to get under the luxury tax. Bigger tax penalties and losing draft position is the number one reason teams aren’t spending, not collusion or trying to penny pinch free agents.
“Teams will not care to pay a luxury tax in 2019.”
They certainly won’t want to pay a tax in 2019 or any year after that. Harper and Machado will have salaries so high that signing one of them will push them way past the tax line and bump up hard against that second tier, The Tier of Death.
Isn’t the so-called cap going up next year to over $225 million? Does anybody know the exact amount?
Next year is 206M.
That’s ridiculous. All of those teams are 100% in on Harper and Machado and could easily sign them.
For one season. The “Premier League” teams are only resetting their luxury taxes this year.
Next season, about 6-8 will exceed the luxury tax and create a top tier of teams who can actually contend for a WS title.
But the rest of the teams might decrease or fail to increase their spending because…what’s the point? Why spend another $30 million when it won’t change your win curve all that much in the face of the “Premier League” teams.
You’ll have one of two teams a year (like Milwaukee this year) try to buy their way into the “Premier League” for a year or two, but 20 MLB teams will more or less be reduced to AAAA status and have no real incentive to spend on high dollar free agents.
Btw, TallKen, what are you smoking
According to whom?
Tallken like many people here obviously don’t understand the luxury tax. Teams in 2019 will blow way past the Lux tax limit, only in another 4 years will they have to worry about it like they did this year.
The tax penalty grows exponentially every year you go over. It resets if you stay under just one year. The Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, etc… make huge piles of money. The cap doesn’t concern them much especially the first few years they go over. The ONLY reason they have decided to choose this year to reset their penalties is to pursue a MVP type player next off-season. This has been widely reported on. Hell, Theo Epstein himself has commented about how they are trying to put themselves in a good position for the next off season. I have no idea where you get this idea Tallken.
100% out huh? Ok dummy
Read LADreamins post. He nailed it.
This has been posted MANY times: the threshold next year makes s huge jump to $206 million. Teams that are at 50% penalty now want to stay under THIS YEARS threshold so as to reset to a 20% penalty for going over next year.
It’s not collusion, it’s strategy.
Post it 20 more times in this thread and it’s still just as false.
Those five teams have used up their payroll space and they are OUT on Harper and Machado..
Says?
Hilarious. Cubs very much in on Harper. They have plenty left to spend to major contracts on the books except Lester and Heyward who could potentially opt out (OK wishful thinking here..)
@tallken
Look genius they can go over the tax dummy so there is no “using up” its not a cap stupid. Its a tax. They save 30% on hundreds of millions if they get under this year. Get it now? I doubt you do.
Keep posting your silly statements. It does not make it more true but sure makes you look like a fool.
Better to stop now. Say no more. We all think your an idiot but better to say nothing more then to keep speaking and prove us all right!
TallKen you are completely ignorant. They are lowering their payroll to reset the tax, so they have lower penalties when they blow past the tax signing superstars next offseason.
Machado, Harper, Blackmon > Darvish, JDM, Jake
TallKen must be a gNats fan. sorry dude, Harper won’t take deferred money. Kiss him goodbye and hope Robles is the real deal.
Can we all just agree TallKen is a moron? Not worth our time. There have been many intelligent posts. Rare. So let’s agree to continue WITHOUT TallKen ruining our dialogue.
There are 3 big FA next offseason, Harper, Machado, Donaldson. Possibly Kershaw. Only 5-6 teams can afford those players. That is a bad excuse for what is happening today.
Know the difference between an excuse and an explanation. It’s a reason, not opinion
Think yankee fans are going through a Renaissance rather than a slow death. I haven’t witness such excitement in nyc since 1995. Wtf is Boras babbling about?
Yea our team has personality and heart for the first time since 2009 and it was built ground up which hasn’t been done since the dynasty years. 2017 made it fun to watch the team again going forward
Yankees always have personality, never heart!
I’m a giants fan, but it sure looks good for the yanks now. Do you think they’re looking for a starter?
Boras wants fans to turn on teams to put pressure on them to sign at his price. Fans generally can see through this, but you still see its effect. FOs see his prices don’t meet value, so they’re both in a war of words so they can get the most pressure on one another. CBA gets mixed into all of this because its another touchy topic that tends to have people siding with the players union. This offseason in general just sucks because of its speed, but its not collusion or anything like Boras suggests. Some teams have done well thus far, like the Yankees, Angels, Giants, etc., without the need to pay Boras’ price.
Boras represents 4 of the top 5 free agents left. He is the one that has caused the freeze. All 4 of those free agents have a reasonable contract offer in hand.
1 year ago Encarnacion got 3/60, JDM, a similar talent-level hitter, got literally double that from Boston but did not sign.
This isn’t collusion, it’s the agents ruining everything by not understanding the market they shoehorned themselves into by getting teams to stupidly sign players for their decline seasons, has now cratered after close to 20 years of watching literally every single team get burned by giving a lot of money to player who did not perform well. Do these moron agents look at Texas, who see Choo getting paid to be mediocre, and go “well, yeah, but you should do it again and again, so I make more money!” Texas is going to rightfully say “Umm, no.” to that.
It’s not the players greediness – they need to get paid for previous high quality performance anyway – its the AGENTS greediness, who get that 10% or whatever their cut is. Agents are 100% the cause of this offseason, not players not owners. Why on EARTH would Hosmer turn down 7 freaking years? He sucks! He should have said yes after 0.0001 seconds of that offer being on the table, but guess who told him to turn it down? Ding ding ding, his agent.
Exactly!
The agents work for the players. So I don’t get your argument at all.
Slow down champ, they work for themselves first, players second.
Nope. The players are free to be represented by anyone they please, or even nobody if they prefer to represent themselves.
What planet do you come from where you think Boras isn’t about getting himself paid??? Just absolutely wrong on every level.
You haven’t proven a thing, but most of all, haven’t responded to any of the points I made. You don’t even seem to agree that the players are in control of who represents them, or in control of whether they accept a contract offer, which of course is completely absurd.
Wrong. Like any other job that provides income, Boras (rightfully so) is trying to effectively maintain and increase his income.
They are not in control of who represents them in the middle of a negotiation. The die is cast!
Technically, yes, they work for the agents. However, I’ve been an agent (in another line of work), and the vast majority of clients left any and all decisions up to me, the expert. Most clients don’t want anything to do with decision-making. After all, that’s why they hire the agent/broker of deals.
Not just technically, but in reality. Maybe some players are lazy about choosing their representation just as people can be lazy about a lot of important things, but that doesn’t change the fact that the players are 100% in control of how they represented. They are in no way forced to stick with an agent who they believe isn’t working out for them or to refuse contract offers they would otherwise accept. This site publishes stories every few days about players switching agents. Trying to demonize the agents just won’t cut it. This seems to me to be little more than an effort to demonize the players, one half step removed.
“This seems to me to be little more than an effort to demonize the players, one half step removed.”
Yes, exactly. This is the sort of thing one hears whenever there’s even a small threat of a work stoppage. Ownership types know that fans tend to identify with the players they watch and root for. Only way for owners to “win” the public relations war is by smearing those very same players, generally with accusations of laziness and greed. Followed, usually, by ownership befuddlement when fans stay away from post settlement games.
“ . . . the players are 100% in control of how they represented (sic).”
Also correct. You have a disclosed agent working for a disclosed principal, the acts of the agent are attributable to the client. The fact that a player may choose to be relatively uninvolved in negotiations, allowing his agent to make most decisions, doesn’t make that player any less responsible for what that agent says and does.
So, if JDM not being content with 5/125 or Hos with 7 years is not greed, what exactly is it? Either contract takes care of them AND their families for generations. Tell a family going to the game making 60 grand a year that this has NOTHING to do with greed on the part of players and see the reaction.
These players are not saying a word about pushing up the minimum for young players, about the absurdly low pay for minor league players, about higher pay for being on the 40 man roster, etc. There are a lot of things they can push for owners to spend their money on that would be selfless, but instead it’s about the players at the top of the market getting overpaid by greater margins every year
If you were offered $7.25 an hour to do your burger flipping job, but across the street guys that flipped just the same amount of burgers or less were getting paid $10.00 per hour would you feel content with your $7.25 per hour?
That is not greed, it’s expecting what you are worth.
Do you complain about the actors and actresses in your favorite movie making $20 million per movie or more? No. Its entertainment and you expect them to get paid that much for being that good.
Baseball is an entertainment business. Baseball players are paid a percentage of the money that comes in to entertain you and me. The amount of revenue coming into MLB is going up every year, so the amount going to the players should go up too.
The MLBPA cannot legally even comment on minor league players since they are not part of the union. MLB minimum is going up because the MLBPA is fighting for it. The owners did not just offer up paying more money to a 3rd of all their players.
In your burger flipping job if you flip 20 burgers an hour should you be paid as well as the other burger flipper that is flipping 120 burgers an hour? The difference in performance between JDM and Gregory Polanco is 3.3 wins or a $24 – $27 million difference in value to the team. Should they be paid the same?
“So, if JDM not being content with 5/125 or Hos with 7 years is not greed, what exactly is it?”
Lemme ask you something in response. If JDM were to sign for 5/125 or whatever number you deem appropriate, where would that additional money, the difference between what the player asked (7/210, iirc) and what he eventually signed for, go?
In JDM’s case that would be sixty million dollars. Would that money go to feed the hungry? Or provide health care to sick children? Or shelter for the homeless? Or would it remain in the pocket of the owner of whichever team signs him?
This is a fight between players and owners over which is entitled to keep that “additional” revenue. While I can accept that you identify more with the owners than the players it remains unclear why you judge the players who want that “additional” money to go to them as greedy while the owners who want to keep that money themselves are responsible businessmen. Spare a clue?
Of course the players want to deflect all the bad publicity towards the agent ! It makes them look better to the fans. But when it all comes down to it, the agent works for the player! Period!
I agree with you in principle, but the back end of many free agent contracts are awful for the team. To me that’s one of the primary hold ups of the market.
Your comparison is absurd. In your “burger flipping” analogy, the place across the street is paying 37% more. JDM is not content with 150% more than the average solid player makes. Plus in your analogy the place across the street is offering more…in the current offseason the agents are crying because no one is offering the extra. I am not begrudging JDM his 5/125. That is what the market will bear, but I do say it’s greed to threaten a work stoppage and take the game away from the fans because 5/125 is not enough.
Plus, once again you use the absurd argument that skyrocketing player salaries have no impact on costs and ticket prices. Agreed the owners will get theirs, but as costs rise, they raise prices, licensing fees, etc. even higher to get their share. Go back to your own elementary analogy if the price of the labor goes up in the burger joint, do you think the owner says, “ I just make less profit now?” No, he raises the prices, just like owners do. Baseball owners don’t just eat that cost and make less profit. You don’t have to side with the owners, you don’t have to side with the players, sometimes you can just side with the fans and call it what it is, greed.
That money would go to sign the other 100 or so free agents waiting for a job.
Agreed. Most of the upper tier free agents have reportedly been offered very lucrative contracts. They have turned them all down, and I have to believe it’s the Boras’ of the world that are driving the insanity. Hosmer is the poster child of this cold stove season.
3.8 WAR was worth a starting salary of $31 million on the FA market in 2017 and the value of that production goes up each year. Why should a 3.8 WAR player accept less than that and why is it insanity to do so?
Because he had a career year and if you look at his norms, he’s basically average. While an average player is techincally worth $18 million a year, i f you actually do pay an average player that much, you have an 81 team that costs $240 million a year.
I wouldn’t say Hosmer sucks but he’s not the prototypical power hitting first baseman either. What he was supposedly offered is definitely a match for the value he brings. Same with Martinez. The guy brings negative value in the field making him pretty much a DH. The Sox just retired the best DH the game has ever seen and he was only making $16M per year in his best seasons. They offered JD $9M more per year for 5 years. How is that not fair?
A match? No way. Hosmer is not an elite talent and he plays the easiest position on the diamond. No team should ever lock down an aging 1B. He deserves 4/60 million at most, not 7 years 100+
Well that just lends more credence to the notion that the problem here is on the players side and their agents. Hosmer should have taken either 7 year offer that was on the table. But his agent wants more. The problem here is Boras thought that by controlling all the big names he was in the drivers seat and could dictate what he wants. He’s found out that’s not the case and he’s behaving like a child who was denied a lollipop in the grocery store checkout line.
Exactly
Hosmer thinks he’s Mark Teixeira. I believed Tex deserved that contract when he signed. Switch hitting gold Glover.
Where do you get that garbage? Hosmer put up a 4.1 WAR. That was worth $33.825 million last year. He is 28 years old so in the final year of a 7-year deal he would be 34. Encarnacion got 3/50 plus bonuses with an option for a 4th year at age 34. That means that a 10 year/$200 million deal for Hosmer would actually be a comparable deal.
Hosmer who is going into his age 28 season has won 4 of the last 5 Gold Gloves at 1B in the AL.
Don’t insult the little intelligence I actually have. 😉
What has Hosmer averaged the last 4 years? Not 4.1 fWAR.
In 2016 it was actually NEGATIVE. And it was ZERO two years before that.
The last 4 years Hosmer has averaged 1.875 fWAR. that’s barely average, and he’s been horribly inconsistent. That’s spelled R-I-S-K-Y.
If you think that’s a $200MM player then I’m sure glad you’re not my team’s GM.
Edgar Martinez was the BEST DH the game has ever seen ! Not Ortiz ! Plus he did it clean!
Well written, justin-turner overdrive.
Thanks!
Yep!
Some very good points justin-turner.
Bottom line, teams are tired of getting burned on these longterm deals for FAs past their prime. They ALWAYS bite teams in the ass (ok 99% of the time).
There is a definite youth movement in baseball. No team wants a 35yo JD Martinez making $25M/season, battling injuries, relegated to DH duty, with multiple years left on his deal.
Teams will take a shot on young guys like defensively challenged Kyle Schwarber who could hit 40 HRs for <$1M/season.
Very few superstars in this game are worth the mega deals that Boras gets for the top FAs every winter. Kershaw, Trout, Bumgarner, Stanton, Bryant, Harper etc are worth it, few others are.
But the game is also getting away from just sluggers who are challenged defensively
@justinturner
You are full of it. Encarnacion was 34 years old and coming off a .263/.357/.529/.886 season.
JDM is going into his age 30 season and is coming off a .303/.376/.690/1.066 season. That is an extreme difference. If he gets a 7-year deal, he will be the same age as Encarnacion when his current 3-year deal is over.
Hosmer is 28. If he is given a 7-year deal, he would be 34 in the last year of the contract. The same age as Encarnacion was when he signed his deal. So what you are saying is a 10/200 plus would be a good deal for Hosmer since a 3/60 at age 34 was a great deal to you.
Outinleftfield, get your dictionary and look up the word “double “ as regards JTOs comment on JDM. It kinda has something to do with math
I’m guessing you’re a Dodger fan JTO. I’m a Giants fan. So let me say that in spite of your dodger allegiance, you’re posts are spot on and I thank you. And I expect that Harper could very easily be a dodger next year.☹️. No way he comes to ATT☹️. Thanks again BUT go Giants
Players just arent worth the price they are asking for.
If hosmer said ill sign for 7 years 120 mill instead of 140 mill hed probably be locked in somewhere.
Think it was reported martinez had like a 100 120 mill offer.
Its a slow market cause the players think theyre worth more than what teams seem willing to pay. In many instances it seems to be 10 20 mill difference.
You are worth only what they’ll pay you nothing more. A lot of it is agents wanting more so they getting a bigger cut.
What are you taking about? Hosmer has an offer from your team for 7/140 that has been confirmed by the owner. Martinez has a 5/125 deal on the table from the Red Sox.
They both are asking for more than that. Coming off their 2017 seasons, both deserve more.
All 30 teams suddenly decided at the same time to devalue production? 30 teams that can’t agree on simple things now all agree on this ultimate valuation thing without consulting with each other? Give me a break. Do you believe in the tooth fairy too?
If it was collusion, teams wouldn’t be signing any players trying to make the teams better! That’s just not the case. It’s just the use of modern-day analytics!
I’ve seen a lot of both Hosmer and Martinez, being a fan of another team in the AL Central. Martinez is a defensive liability and if he hadn’t been playing on the Tigers (who had no where else to play VMart) and then an NL team (that has no DH) they would have burned his glove to keep him out of the field. That 5./125 offer isn’t under valued. Hosmer is a nice player, but not an elite player. If someone offered him 7/140 he should have jumped at it.
Let me lay this out another way on why this isn’t collusion. If it was collusion the owners would be ignoring the fans and refusing to sign guys to deals that would be good for the team just to try to drive down salaries. I’m a Twins fan, we need a front line starting pitcher in the worst possible way. Yu Darvish is, on most lists, the top free agent out there period. I won’t be excited if the Twins sign him to the 5 year deal they supposedly have out there because it would be a huge overpay for a pitcher like Darvish. A new first baseman to replace Mauer would be great, and Hosmer is the top first baseman out there, but I’d be horrified if the Twins signed him to a 7/140 deal.
The problem this off season is you have a VERY underwhelming group of free agents this off season who have outrageous demands relative to their production. My team is only a few pieces away from moving up. In a normal off season I see lots of possible acquisitions I am hoping my team makes a run at. This year I don’t see much that would get me excited and most rumors floated about players are deals I am hoping my team stays far away from. Teams have learned how damaging a really big, really bad contract can be (see Joe Mauer as an example) as have some of us fans. Learning from past mistakes and not continuing to sign guys to stupid contracts isn’t collusion.
“They both are asking for more than that. Coming off their 2017 seasons, both deserve more.”
And a team would be insane to pay them more than that based on one season’s performance. Totally effing insane.
I think the players deserve whatever they can get, and I hope my Phillies sign Machado next offseason and I don’t care what he get’s paid because I think he’ll b worth it – because he’s done it for more than one season and he’ll be young.
AAMOF I hope they sign Trout if/when he becomes and FA and I don’t care what it costs because he’s not a generational player – he’s better than that – he’s arguably one of the top 5 players ever to walk on a field.
But you’re arguing that a guy like Hosmer who’s had one season over 4 WAR, and has zero or negative value in 2 of the last 4 years is worth a mega-contract?
As I noted above, I am very, very glad your not my team’s GM – because whichever teams signs Hosmer to a deal like you advocate will regret it very, very quickly – and it will severely hurt their ability to compete in future years because there’s a 50/50 chance it’s dead money – even before he turns 30 years old.
See Agency Database in the right column.
Upper tier talent wants top tier money in a market dominated by broas that’s a year in front of what will be the best free agent market in history m
That’s why it’s been slow
“The list of available free agents could fill out a 25-man roster and contend for a playoff spot” … and that roster would have to be paid a billion bucks this year alone if the players got their way.
Ridiculous demands + fewer teams willing to meet this demands = slow off-season.
I’m as pro-player as anyone. But could this issue not be that the owners are colluding but rather that the *players* are colluding under Boras? It’s in the CBA that neither the players nor owners can collude.
It is absolutely the agents doing this. The players all would have signed already if the agents didn’t tell them not to.
You ain’t seen nothing yet.
Owners have a greater incentive to sign good free agents and put a winning team on the field that will produce more revenue for the organization. That makes it easier to believe in collusion by owners than collusion by players.
Players get their money no matter how bad the team they sign with is. If there is collusion it would be agents who see having their clients sign shorter deals than they hoped for as harming the agents “brand”
Do you realize that less than 1 in 20 players use Boras as their agent? Sometimes I am astounded by the lack of logical thinking from people and you have taken that to a new level.
I’ve been giving this subject and great amount of thought and have come up with many possible solutions.
First of all MLB needs to erase all player contracts. Put them all in a building and set fire to them along with erasing all data on the online regarding player contracts. This will give them a ground zero to build from.
A new foundation will rise in which all contracts will be based on performance. A system similar to that of draft Kings or fan duel will be implemented in which players will be payed a base salary and given money for walks hits homers etc and wins strike outs etc for pitchers. Players who contribute to the community shall also be given money for their off the field charitable endevors.
Gone will be the days of damaged goods players like David wright unethically collecting huge paychecks while contributing nothing on the field. The elimination of these fat cat contracts will free up much revenue.
All teams revenues will be sent into one pool from which players are paid. This will give all teams an equal chance to be competitive yearly. Bottomfeeders like Oakland will have no excuse for being horrible year in and out.
For any players who do not want to play with their current team can put in a request to be transferred just like any other job. However they must have five years service time and good reason to do so.
I believe the state of baseball is in serious trouble and could be headed for strike. I say do it and make some of these wholesale changes that baseball desperately needs. Their isn’t a renegade league coming up like the XFL so if I’m the owners I wait this one out and let the players come crawling back.
“Bottomfeeders like Oakland will have no excuse for being horrible year in and out.”
Says “I’ve been giving this subject and great amount of thought” but can’t remember back 3 years ago when Oakland went to the postseason every year from 2012-2014, and who have the 3rd-most titles in history. Dumbest post ever.
“I’ve been giving this subject and great amount of thought and have come up with many possible solutions.” Yeah for maybe 5 minutes….the Oakland comment alone shows your lack of ‘great amount of thought”
Oakland probably will make the playoffs this year, lol – it’s called a rebuild and they’re actually pretty close to being a contender now, if not 2018 then 2019 for sure..
Gotta love how no one ever calls the Orioles bottomfeeders even though they are the most atrociously-ran team in the game and been totally mediocre and irrelevant for almost 40 years, they’re really like the opposite of the Marlins, who at least knew how to pull a 1-year run and got it to work twice.
But yeah, there are no “bottomfeeder” baseball teams anyway, what does that even imply here? Lol imagine writing all those words and being entirely wrong.
Oakland will be lucky to finish 4th in the west.
I can see 3rd and maybe 2nd if the Angels experience any kind of injuries (which they always seem to do). This is of course, a lot of projecting younger players, but I do watch a lot of them and they’re looking pretty decent so far. Lots of prospects with star and in Puk’s case, superstar ceilings.
they’ll definitely finish above Texas and the Mariners
Justin turner doesn’t the orioles have the best record over the last 6 years out of all the AL east teams? Yes they’re ran terribly but Showalter and Duqutte deserve a lot of credit for keeping the Orioles pretty competitive giving who the owner is
What about the San Diego Padres? Havnt they been in a perpetual 20 year rebuild ?
No business owner would agree to that kind of cost uncertainty. On a good year the cost might be 500 million. On a bad year it might be 50 million. While it sounds good on principle it would be a terrible business plan.
Playing tickets would make it for it under my model. Also no player would make over a million dollars regardless that would be the cut off.
Oh so they just request a transfer huh? As long as they have a “good reason”. Care to enlighten us on the definition of good reason? Who decides?
So all an owner needs to do is tell Mike Trout hey brio request a transfer and come here!!
You did not really think this all through did you? You put zero thought into it
So in your mind, it’s unethical to get injured while playing for the team your under contract for? LoL! That’s so ridiculous
You mean that incredible successful league known as the XFL? Your using them as a good example ? LoL
Boras simultaneously claims that his clients have multiple big offers (when it suits him to generate interest) while claiming the owners are colluding in not making offers.
Someone’s telling porkys.
Something just doesnt add up concerning the Hosmer deal.
Only two teams have been mentioned as making offers to Hosmer and both have confirmed they made the offer.
It’s a pretty despicable comment on Boras comparing a persons death when talking about baseball.
He overplayed his hand finally, and now he doesn’t know what else to do, except throw out wild accusations in a final attempt to get paid.
Yup, he’s the king of the agents, and the agents are the ones at fault/the ones being idiot scumbags here.
He only THINKS he is the king of the agents. Pretty clearly the players don’t agree. Why should we?
Uh, he is king whether you like it or not. His net worth is $200 million. Name another sports agent who’s made more money. I’ll wait.
I can’t think of a single reason to agree, and his net worth surely isn’t one of them. As proof and evidence I point out the hundreds if not thousands of players who are perfectly happy to be represented by other agents. Boras is a showboater who wants people to think of him as being all-powerful. Doesn’t mean we have to believe it.
What is an agents job? To get the best deal and most money for the people he represents. Therefore, the agent with the most money is king. And Boras has SO much more money than every other agent.
I don’t know what parameters you think their job is, but the rest of us thinks this. I dislike him and his style, but if you don’t think he’s top dog, then youre just being a mindless hater.
There also are not thousands of MLB players. Every single player in MLB would hire Boras if they could and all the ones who are heading into FA often do.
I will let Boras brag about much money Boras has made. I dislike Boras because he’s a loudmouth and a tireless self-promoter. This seems to appeal to some players (who he represents) but not the many many others (who he does’t represent).
And yes, thousands of players. The 40-man MLB rosters are 1,200 players all by themselves. Minor leaguers have agents, too.
I did say “There also are not thousands of MLB players.” you didn’t say minor leaguers in your OP, I’m talking strictly in terms of MLB-level talent, as those are the ones who hire Boras.
There’s tiers of agents, for sure. Why do you think Boras isn’t #1, the fact you’re talking about him says that for sure. He’s awful, annoying and is ruining the game, but he gets that money. Can’t deny it.
Sorry, I won’t accept the Boras is the Center of Universe theory just because Boras has convinced a lot of people (including you apparently) that it’s true.
Nearly all major leaguers start out in the minors. They have agents to represent them from the time they enter the draft until they day they retire, and believe it or not, they are far from all being Scott Boras.
Jay-Z is an officially licensed sports agent and his net worth is $900mm.
Agents are just takin’ care of business.
I’m not saying he’s the center of the universe, he’s the wealthiest agent who has made the most money for his clients in MLB history. You are denying this actual FACT for “reasons”. He gets $10 million every time he gets a player $100M, and he’s gotten the most $100M contracts in history. No other agent is on that level, denying it just makes you look stupid and you aren’t, so I don’t know why you’d let mindless hating take over on this point.
That’s a technicality, we all know Hova’s net worth is like 5% from agenting and 95% from selling crack 🙂
You only asked for another sports agent who’s made more money. It bears mentioning that Jay-Z also has a more colorful vernacular than Boras and people actually pay to hear him speak. That’s two strikes that HOVA has on Boras.
No doubt, but Boras has been at it way longer. Jay Z also isn’t the agent himself, he has a staff of agents at his company, just to make it clear. They do not do the same job, or at least on the same level.
We? So are you implying that you are a player who has an agent BlueSkyLa? Cuz you said “WE” two different times in posts!
We, as in the fans of baseball. That should have been around 100% obvious. Maybe you aren’t one of those?
Ellsbury, Choo, Sandoval, Hanley, A-Rod, Pujols, Kemp, Ubaldo, Cain, Homer Bailey, Shields, Upton Jr, Zimmerman, Matt Garza and many more have all received ill-advised contracts. Teams have the data now from these either ridiculously long and/or crazy AAV deals.
The market is correcting itself, JD and Hosmer have both received ridiculous years and contracts already and are demanding more dollars AND years?
No thanks!
Also, Cano is still owed 6/153 until his age 40 season, he’ll be on this list in a couple years.
“Albert Pujols, after a -2.0 WAR season, just signed a 4/114 million deal starting at his age 38 season”.
This is why teams aren’t into doing these deals anymore, because the above was made to be a real thing that is currently happening.
Cano put up production worth $132 million in value in his 1st 4 years in Seattle. For that, he was paid $96 million. If he doesn’t play at all at age 40, he has already paid that salary and nearly another season’s salary with his surplus value so far.
It is not about any single season, it is about the value provided over the full length of the contract.
Oilf, for every Robinson Cano you show us, we’ll raise you a Barry Zito, Carl Crawford, Prince Fielder, Ryan Howard and many other dead money contracts that were hardly worth it.
And I disagree with you that it’s just about the total value provided over the full value of the contract.
It’s also about dead money years that hurt a team’s ability to compete – and….
sign FAs that are available that can help them compete. That’s a point you avoid like the plague when others bring it up.
So now, teams have figured out that they’d rather have shorter term deals with higher AAVs (see, Santana, Carlos), and players are upset that it looks like the foolish long term deals will be limited to fewer players.
Teams have determined that they don’t want their future competitiveness hurt by dead money at the end of a deal.
As a fan I like it that my team is being run that way – that the FO isn’t so radically present oriented.
You seem to think players deserve and have a moral right to long term deals that teams were foolish enough to give them in the past.
Personally, if the future of MLB transitions to (and that is probably what’s going on – a transition) shorter term deals with higher AAVs, it will be good for baseball.
If the future of MLB is that players can negotiate a shorter path to free agency that will be good too – because I agree with you that players deserve to get paid.
Where we disagree is that teams should sign aging players to contracts that hurt their ability to win in the long run.
It’s a wage issue – not a moral crusade, and as Clint Eastwood said in Unforgiven – “Deserve has nothing to do with it.”
Over/under on a ‘team salary floor’ that the players union will soon demand???
$140 mil?
I like that, the teams DO get a lot of revenue sharing thats supposed to be used to give contracts to, and teams can always extend/buy out arbitration years for their young home grown stars.
and teams counter with NFL style contracts
I suspect a floor is where this is headed but I doubt it would be a hard and fast number. Perhaps a formula based on total team revenue.
It would have to be a fluid salary floor when you have 2 teams over $500 million in revenue, and 3 that are barely over $200 million.
At $200 million in revenue, a team can afford about $100 million in MLB salaries.
At $500 million in revenue, a team can afford $250 million or more. The high revenue teams have about the same non MLB player expenses of around $100 million, but so much more in revenue, so their player payroll can actually be higher like the Dodgers $300 million in payroll and CBT payments last season.
Something on that order, but I think the floor would have to apply mainly to the teams on the receiving end of the competitive balance money. Makes no sense for them to get that money and simply distribute it as profits to the owners.
Why on earth do people want a salary floor? Dumb person: because every team will be competitive! So you want cookie cutter league where every team finishes 81-81 gotcha. Look at other leagues with salary caps? Are other leagues teams tanking? Yes! People want a salary floor live in a fantasy land where there favourite player with their favourite small market team will just stay forever! Its not good business or baseball wise to lock them up it’s not going to happen. Baseball needs a draft lottery first. Less incentive to tank, bad teams will still do it but there will be less of a incentive. Right now there isn’t.
The best solution is to put a bigger % of the combine tv revenue into a pool like the EPL does. Teams will finish at the top of the standings win a higher % of the revenue. This gives all teams incentive to win as many games as they can and makes September actually important for all teams
These ideas are not mutually exclusive. Media dollars should be shared more equally but again the problem is teams on the receiving end could easily simply pocket that money.
MLB equivalent to the “Perfect Storm.” Combination of player/agents lofty expectations, CBA that significantly penalizes CBT paying teams for signing FA(s) who received qualifying offers, FA class of 2018/19 (including potential of adding Kershaw to the group), teams planning how they will extend their own young stars, teams looking at past long-term, high priced contracts when players reach age 34+, several teams trying to dump salary and rebuilding at the same time, certain agents MO to make teams wait on signing free agents don’t like it when teams are now doing the same thing, etc.
The CBA makes a team give up lower draft picks than they did in the last CBA. Even a team over the CBT threshold doesn’t give up 1st round picks to sign a player with a QO. Instead of giving up your 1st round pick, you are giving up a 2nd and 5th round pick. Those 2 combined are not worth what the 1st round pick is worth. The compensation for teams losing a QO player is lower also.
The CBT figures are exactly the same for the first 3 seasons of a team being over the threshold as it was in the last CBA and the same for any team that doesn’t go $20 million over the CBT threshold. It only effects 4-5 teams a season.
There are 3 big name FA coming next offseason. Harper, Machado, and Donaldson. Donaldson has already said he wants to sign an extension in Toronto. That leaves 2. Kershaw is a possibility if he has a healthy 2018.
You know what slows down the off season? Wanting $200m when the market only supports your value at $150m. Wanting 8 years when the final year of your deal put you at 38. Salary caps not coupled with spending floors. Etc… There is blame to go around!
“available free agents could fill out a 25-man roster and contend for a playoff spot” That’s the funniest line ever! That middling team of declining players would cost what, $300M? Thank you no, no, and no.
What does price have to do with it? The Dodgers had $300 million in payroll and CBT payments.
Those players can still fill a 25 man roster and most would be All-Star quality players.
At some point the players are going to have to realize they aren’t being valued as high as they’d hoped or expected and accept a less substantial contract. Whether it be collusion or simply lack of interest, it doesn’t matter. Also I love the fact they can hint at a strike when the difference is a 15MM AAV vs 10MM AAV. They’d better learn to compromise if they don’t want to be unemployed come summer. I for one am glad teams are realizing that with the implementation of the new luxury tax (which I COMPLETELY disagree with by the way) that they can’t spend as much money on aging players. Hopefully this will drive down salaries overall in the game and allow teams to sign more impact players while still maintaining the same payroll. I’m very pro capitalism and free market but when you have people threatening a work strike over making 20 million a year vs 25 million, I really won’t shed a tear.
“The list of available free agents could fill out a 25-man roster and contend for a playoff spot…”
Yes, while simultaneously SHATTERING the luxury tax cap…
Waaaait a minute, you tryin to tell me a dumb athlete said something stupid?
Hey, look… we got a good ballclub, gonna win some ballgames. I’m just here to help this great ballclub win some ballgames. Just gonna do my best. Can I have $30M per season, please?
Agents are poison… well, not all of them just the few rotten outspoken ones…
…and without them, i’m sure owners/gm’s would pay players fairly. scouts honor.
Cubs and Astros have killed parity. Too many teams are tanking trying to win big one like cubs and Astros did. It’s what finally got them to the top. Whether or not they stay on top remains to be seen. But if they do they will need to adjust to not drafting top picks and growing there minor leagues all the while putting best team out there and making smart decisions with trades and free agents. Tanking has worked, but by itself is not sustainable. Darvish, hosmer, arrietta, and others would absolutely improve a great number of teams but only teams willing to go for it are top 10 teams in each league. Other teams are tanking. Glad my birds don’t tank. Tanking would be hard to endure and loses fans. Granted they’re not the diehard fans, but still losing fans.
You get no prizes for winning 70-80 games every year, ask Baltimore. Better to aim for the bottom, because the reward is Kris Bryant and Carlos Correa.
EPL style of revenue sharing would solve that. The % of the tv revenue is split by how much you win. This will give the best incentive for owners to be competitive. It’s the best solution I’ve heard to get rid of tanking without doing the worst thing and that’s a salary floor. Paying crappy players more money just to get to the floor. Just dumb
Or put best team out there every year and compete and try to win it all every year. Works for the cardinals and many other teams. If all 30 teams viewed offseason as chance to improve their team and try for playoffs, this would not be an issue.
Worse place to be is in the middle!
No team is going to be sustainable with the way these salaries have been skyrocketing! When does it end? How do you keep a team together by doing this? You can’t! That’s why we are having this offseason we are having. The teams are using modern day analytics
and getting smarter. That’s also why we are seeing all the new younger managers
and coaches in MLB . I think it will be good for the game!
I actually sort of agree with boras. Teams aren’t looking to compete, rather they are giving their young talent playing time at the major league level. Teams know this won’t produce a winning season, rather it’s using the MLB roster to develop talent. Isn’t that what the minors is for though? It’s a misappropriation of resources. I loved when these strategies weren’t so common also, but at least 6 teams have followed the cubs/Astro teardown strategy and not invested in FA pool with the new payroll room so far. It makes sense why there’s less competition, but I don’t think I necessarily agree with putting lesser talent on the field for further development.
The Cubs strategy included signing several free agents, then trading them for draft picks.
After they tanked and front office decided it would take 5-6 years of not competing to get to the top. Theos words, not mine. When they became relevant in 2015, all cubs fans I know said it was a year earlier than the plan. Now because of them and Astros and other teams, if you’re not already at top then it seems tanking is way to go. You can compete and improve at the same time. Just takes a little longer but it is more sustainable in the long run.
Waino fan ! In your above post, you said “tanking has worked, but In itself is not sustainable .” Now in your other post above, you are saying “it is more sustainable in the long run!” So which is it?
I never said tanking is sustainable? I reread my posts and can’t even see where it could be mistaken that way. Not sure where you’re getting that. Tanking has not yet been proven to be sustainable. Only way tanking can work is on short term and if/when success comes then another model will need to be adopted in order to stay on top. Cubs way might be successful but I highly doubt it without another tank coming in future when all young core needs to get paid. I’ll believe it’s sustainable when they have a 20 year run of repeated success with completely different teams/front offices/ managers that all win. Cubs are on a three year run of success. 17 to go. We’ll see.
The problem with what you describe is that teams have figured out that if they give the older player the contract(length) he wants then they’ll be stuck paying him when their young guys are ready to play. It becomes dead money.
I’m sure a lot of these mid-tier guys would have a home if they would take a one-year deal.
Memo to Scott Boras:
*I* am the paying customer. Therefore, *I* will decide what is and is not an acceptable return for my voluntarily spent dollars. And *I* will not be used as some kind of leverage or pawn in your ongoing power struggle with increasingly intelligent front office execs.
Stop trying to generate public outcry over the teams not trying to compete. Overpaid, underperforming, declining players are often what generates the need to not compete for a few years, e.g., my favorite team, the Phillies. If you are unhappy they aren’t spending as much these days, don’t blame McPhail or Klentak…blame Ruben Amaro, Jr and the staff he used to employ.
And every time Boras opens his mouth, no matter what comes out, is ultimately a complaint that he’s not getting his commission this winter. Has nothing to do with players, owners, the integrity of the game, valuations, or CBA – it’s all about the commission he’s not getting.
I don’t begrudge Boras attempting to do his job. His responsibility is to procure the best deal for each individual player he represents, based on each particular player’s needs and desires.
What I don’t like is when he makes arguments that are not so veiled attempts to get fans and media all riled up at owners and try to pressure teams into spending more on his players. I am not part of the infamous Scott Boras Sales Pitch Binder. He can make his case for his players in the marketplace and if the money isn’t there then either his sales pitch sucks or the market does not value his asset (the player) as much as he expected. Either way, the mistake is his and not my (or any other fan’s) responsibility to correct.
Thank you! Couldn’t agree more!
What is acceptable is the players making 50% of the revenue the teams take in for the work the players do/entertainment the players provide. The players are not making that much now and the owners have collectively chosen to pay even less than they did before.
Tom Verducci’s piece is excellent
You want players to sign? Remove the Luxury Tax thresholds. But if that’s what you want, don’t start whining and about the poor small market teams that “can’t compete” and hissing about the team’s that can. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
The players agreed to this CBA. They bargained for this. Now they’re mad. Best just to ignore the players because they obviously don’t know what they want.
The CBA isn’t the problem. The problem is owners collectively choosing all at once to withhold the player’s fair share of the revenue.
The Rangers payroll has increased by roughly $100M this decade. That’s a crazy insane increase in the last 7 years.
I don’t completely disagree with Boras’ comparison regarding free agency. My team (Seattle Mariners) have the funds to get in the bidding for a mid-tier starter, such as Cobb or Lynn, but refuse to do so because they want to see if a combination of Marco Gonzales, Erasmo Ramirez, and./or Ariel Miranda go from average to above average.
Personally, I would like to see if the Mariners could add depth to their rotation for a talented mid-rotation pitcher for a reasonable (under market) deal. The deals at this point in free agency are what can push a fringe team into a wild card spot. Also, all fans deserve a management team that does all they can to improve a product that we pay for to entertain us. Unfortunately, for Mariners fans our GM refuses to pay for decent talent, instead he purges our minor league depth (cost-controlled talent) to makeup our below average rotation. .
Hold on. Didn’t the Mariners sign Cano? And Cruz? Isn’t King Felix getting paid a ton? To say the Mariners don’t acquire talent is pretty outlandish. I get that those players were acquired via a different regime, but still…
The Mariners are the team with the longest playoff drought in any sports. So this new GM can’t be blamed entirely. The Mariners have signed international talent. Brought up home grown players. Signed big FA’s. Made trades. But nothing has resulted in success in a long time. Even if they went crazy and signed two $20M+ players, I still don’t see them beating out the Astros. Stinks as I’d love to see that happen, but it’s just a far fetched reality.
“…they (the union) chose to sign a collective bargaining agreement that rewards tanking and penalizes clubs for spending too much.” Says it all.
What a bunch of clowns. Overpaid, greedy and delusional about their true worth. Martinez reportedly had an offer but he didn’t like it. Too bad. Go on strike and work for less than a hundred grand a year. Those fools evoke zero sympathy.
If you mean the owners are overpaid clowns then I agree.
Now that I agree with!
No one cares that an owner made $400 million last year, but will scream bloody murder that a player, who can’t make money past the age of 40 in a profession he’s dedicated his entire life to, who has no “fallback career”, that he’s “a greedy prima donna” for wanting $20 million, and the player is the reason why we love the game!
Let it ride. That’s all.
Justin turner all your points are invalid. Can’t make money past the age of 40? If JD Martinez retired today, he would be a very rich man, only working until age 30. He does not need a fallback career, as he made 11 million dollars last year, about 183 times the American average income. He was set up for at least 125 years after working one year.
Sure but the fallback career thing is somewhat besides the point. This entire discussion is ultimately about how the dollars we as fans spend on the game will be divided up between the players and the owners. What the players get is very public. How much the owners get is completely secret. This seems to put a lot of baseball fans on the side of the owners, which totally puzzles me. Are we paying to watch the players play or the owners own?
The owners pay the bills and take all the risks
Without the players, there is no game.
The people buying the tickets and the merchandise and paying taxes that provide those stadiums to the owners with little cost pay the bills. Never forget that.
Don’t forget the Billions they get from TV revenue ! Which in turn is driven by advertising from consumer spending !
Again blue sky move to Sweden. You don’t have time to be on here talking about mlb. You need to be going door to door campaigning for Bernie Sanders. Your problem seems to be with capitalism not anything to do with baseball. You’ve got bigger fish to fry
Can any of us commenters hit a 100 MPH pitch? Or throw one? Talent gets paid because it can do things we can’t. Ragging on labor without acknowledging capital reaps in riches in an atmosphere where taxpayers often pony up for them only obscures the bigger issues.
Commie!
You mean the overpaid, greedy, and delusional owners think they can get away with collectively agreeing to pay an unfair low percentage of revenue to the players?
That’s exactly what they did back in the good old days of the Reserve Clause. The owners could and did run baseball like a plantation.
HOLD THE PHONE!!!!
COLON JUST SIGNED! COLON JUST SIGNED!
The stove is broiling!!!
Players make a threat, and mgmt folds
COLON!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This movement and signings will start on the Monday after the Superbowl,just watch.
Verducci nails it. The top of the market is not where the vast majority of players are, and the Union’s failure to make serious efforts to deal with younger and “B” players is coming back to haunt them. Boras has a job to do, and his hyperbole is just that. But look at the list below the top ten–there are plenty of useful players, not stars, but complimentary players that should have teams right now.
I did not realize there was a deadline for signing.
When Boras holds all the top FA’s and they are not accepting the offers they have received, it holds up the entire process for everyone.
Jake Arrieta is not getting 6-7 years Boras, JD Martinez is not getting $200m either. No matter how long you hold out.
In all these comments from the MLBPA, player agents and general managers I have yet to read anyone say that we are pricing our fans out. If the teams are actually “colluding” then I look at as keeping costs controlled instead of overpaying for decent but not the best talent
Poor Scott Boras…he suddenly cares what time dinner is….I thought it didn’t matter?
How many teams would be more active in this years free agent class IF their payrolls were not ALREADY saddled with bad contracts they signed with his other clients?
Would the Rangers be more active if they weren’t already overpaying for Choo and Fielder? Would the Yankees be more active if they weren’t already overpaying for Ellsbury? Would the Orioles be more active they weren’t already overpaying for Chris Davis? And so on.
That thought has been rattling around my brain throughout the entirety of this inane controversy. Well put.
Starting to beat a dead horse now. Same opinions from these people and same comments about their opinions..
It seems to me that more competition could solve a lot of problems. And by more competition I mean more than 1 professional baseball league. Gives players options if they aren’t happy with how one league operates; forces owners to compete with other leagues for fans via better product and better value keeping consumer costs down; creates more jobs for more aspiring athletes…
A freer marketplace and more competition…I thought it up first! (Or maybe not…LOL)
Herein lies the issue. I just put together a depth chart with the top remaining free agent players (which happens to be exactly 25 as of now). The payroll would be $322.7MM just using AAV of expected contracts. Using Fangraphs projected WAR this team should win about 86 games (using their 47.7 win level replacement team). I actually think they would win a few more (yes, yes I know WAR projections are rather conservative), but still. Unsurprisingly this team also has HUGE depth issues especially at catcher, middle infield, and relief pitcher (having to use several free agent starters as relievers, which made WAR projections kind of irrelevant for them so I just assumed an average of 0.5 WAR each for them) Anyways so this is a very good but not elite team that will problem have some serious problems arise because of their lack of depth (like Yonder Alonso playing time at shortstop if starter Eduardo Nunez is injured or needs a day off) all for an insane sum of money. Obviously most teams don’t fill the entirety of their roster with free agents, but the point remains that it’s obvious these players are overvalued. They would also pay an additional 25MM in luxury tax assuming it’s a first time offense, all the way up to nearly 63MM if they keep this payroll up over 3 years. At that point they would be paying nearly 400MM a year to keep a team of now mostly past their prime players on the field.
If anyone would like to see the depth chart, here ya go: tinypic.com/r/2lwmwsy/9
Edit: somehow completely slipped my mind and research that Alonso signed, so let’s just put Brandon Phillips on the team for some middle infield depth. I’ll assume he’d cost about half as much as Alonso but also not be as valuable.
This is an awesome exercise; thank you for putting this together! As you said, no one stocks their team with a large swath of free agents, but this example shows the generally over valued nature of free agency in general. Cool stuff.
This narrative that simpletons keep saying man the roster of free agents is a playoff team is the most absurd thing ever. These people who are blindly pro players keep making all these ridiculously statement and accusations never actually research their dumb ideas.
I applaud you for actually following up and proving to these people that just signing all these guys to create a team wouldn’t work for several reasons.
It’s just a perfect storm this year stop acting like a whiny child and you need to come to the realization that this years class isn’t worth massive contracts. Boras has made his point he has absolutely no merit it’s the free agent class this year he knows it deep down. If the same thing happens next year then you can talk collusion geez what a whiny baby.
Factors.
1. The MLBPA has been happy for so long profiteering off of a broken financial system that exploits inequalities between owners. Most of the league does not have the revenue to continually drive FA demand. Take the big teams at the top out of the equation for one offseason and suddenly it becomes obvious how much they count on the Steinbrenners et al for their anticipated FA prices. They’ve been focused on getting as many players as they can on big legacy contracts, and they never expected that the significance of free agency as an avenue for teams to obtain talent would change, but it did. Now the reality that most of the league simply doesn’t have the revenue to blindly commit many years into the future. Teams have gotten burned by that time and time again, and when you’re in the middle of the pack or lower that could be crippling down the road.
2. The way the league obtains talent has changed. Call it sabermetrics or moneyball or whatever, but teams without the revenue to purchase wins all the time found alternative routes to building competitive rosters. They can never compete with the top revenue teams with their money but they can have a long-term plan of leaning on young controllable talent with scouting drafting and developing, and using lower tiered FA and trades to fill things out. We’re seeing more and more extreme rebuild/compete cycles too, so at any given point a pretty good portion of the league is not the least bit interested in signing FA to long term deals.
3. Big money teams have gotten smart too. They don’t blindly throw money around. They will seek out the right players rather than any players, whether it’s via trade (Stanton) or taking a pass waiting for different FA (like Machado or Harper). They’re OK going into rebuild mode now too which wasn’t always the case. It’s all affected their valuation of free agency.
4. The trade market has been incredible the last several years, both in the offseason and during the season. If the right deal isn’t there in FA, just keep watching the trade market. Because of the more and more extreme rebuild cycles teams go through, for the last few years there have always been lots of high quality players available all the way through the end of August.
Or let’s just howl collusion.
Very well thought out
and a smart post JD!
Several issues are affecting this years class.
Not in any order per say.
1. Next years class
2. New CBA and salary cap rules.
3. No elite, many very good, but elite players.
YU blow up the WS. JD 1/2 season was great, poor defense, ERAs of top starts not supper etc
4. Yanks got there player earlier through a trade.
5. Teams resetting the cap threshold.
6. Players thinking they are more then they are worth, and sitting on big offers.
etc
i certainly dont have any pity for the owners and know they are making tons of money.
but that doesnt mean they are required to make bad investments just because they have in the past.
Boras’ comments are way over the top here. a sign of desperation.
Comparing baseball to murder. That’s nice. Proves how much of a dipstick you are Mr. Boras.
His comments are making me wave a giant middle finger against all these poor neglected souls. How dare Hosmer get such an insulting offer of 7 years and almost $150M. Is he really worth more than the best QB’s in the NFL? Does anyone really buy tickets just to watch Hosmer play? Freaking insane. Boras can kiss my borass
If it’s collusion, why is it reported that Hosmer has a 7 year 147 mil. deal offered? Martinez has a 5 year 125 mil deal on the table. Multiple offers to Darvish. Players are being greedy and for some reason think they are worth more.
I’m starting to think that it is the players that are colliding. 7 years for $150M? Seriously, how can a slightly above average player think he is worth more than that? This is past the point of absurd. Hearing hear players whine about an offer like that is peeving me off. Zero sympathy for them. I am happy as heck my team isn’t throwing those types of offers around. Been burned way too many times in the past.
It sounds like teams and owners have made a conscious effort to reset the market and stop these outrageous contracts. Paying 200+ million for a DH or a #2/3 starter was getting out of control. Bryce Harper is going to seek 500 million next year and teams are starting to fight back….that being said keep your kids in baseball haha, longer careers than football and way more money
“It is no surprise when agent Scott Boras, who is comfortable speaking publicly and provocatively, criticizes owners for their lack of spending. It is astonishing when Van Wagenen, co-head of an agency that seldom says a word publicly, issues a blistering statement.”
“The increasing number of teams playing not to win — even as a strategy to win in future years — might pose a problem for the 30-team league. Attendance has declined in each of the last three seasons, down to its lowest level since 2002.
“That is why attendance is down, there are only 18 teams in the league.””
Fans dying because their favorite teams are signing absurd contracts this offseason? Ha! As a diehard Ranger fan, I have ZERO desire for Texas to sign any of these free agents – at anything close to what they are asking. Do I like Darvish? Absolutely! But do I want him for $25-$30M for the next 6-7 years? Absolutely not! As a diehard fan, I’m sick and tired of these albatross contracts. Choo and Fielder are not why I go to GlobeLife Park. I don’t get excited when the Angels are in town to see Pujols. Didn’t care to go see Big Panda when the Red Sox where in town. The list of examples goes on and on and on. So Boras and his boorish comments can take a hike. Paying players crazy money for a decade was an experiment that proved itself to be absurd. The fact that agents can’t see this doesn’t make me not want to go to a game. In fact, I appreciate the ‘suffering’ these overpaid athletes are going through.
If the players union wants to argue that Judge and Gallo, etc… should be paid more – I would agree. If they want to argue that minor league players should be paid more – I would agree. But if they want to argue that past their prime players should be paid $150M+, they will get zero sympathy from me.
My team has not signed any major free agents, nor do I want them to because they don’t significantly improve our team for the cost. But there’s numerous teams who could get better by signing free agents because of holes in their roster and needs they have to compete. Problem is there’s about 10 teams right now that have zero desire to compete. That’s killing baseball. Fans don’t leave because teams aren’t signing, it because they aren’t trying to improve. Marlins, padres, Braves, reds, pirates, tigers, white sox, Phillies are all teams, amongst others I’m not thinking of right now, who are in some level of tanking. Those teams have zero chance of playoffs this year.
Boras is to blame himself. Inflating average players go elite player salaries is why this offseason is dead. Darvish is worth 16-18 a season at most. Arrieta less. 12-15 a season.
I hope they sue the pants off of Loria. Maybe take away his art collection in lieu of payment?
Stupid phone! Got put on the wrong thread! Sorry!
it’s definitely a crazy off season, but I figure it will be a flurry of signings shortly, not so much as Boras says murder, but at least the FA’s will land somewhere….
Why is free agency moving slow? A quick look at all the teams
NL West
Giants- at the cap and have had multiple long term contracts go wrong. Cain, Zito, Cueto, and Pence. Currently third highest payroll.
Dodgers- Highest payroll in baseball for the last five years. Spent big last off-season. Determined to get under the tax and reset the penalties.
D-backs-with Grenke they have the highest paid pitcher in the game. Goldy is due to be extended.
Rockies-Spent big on bullpen and there stars are approaching free agency.
Padres- Building thru the farm maybe willing to add the right free agent.
NL-Central
Cubs- big spenders recently (Lester, Heyward) and have signedmultiple free agents this year. They also have many young players about to get expensive.
Cards- usually not big spenders in free agency. Best team in baseball at developing their own players.
Reds- rebuilding
Brewers- just gave out the the highest contract of the off-season and have trade chips to fill their needs. Still might spend on a starter.
Pirates- semi rebuilding.
NL east-
Nats- 2nd highest payroll in the game. Usually big spenders but team is loaded with key players about to be free agents.
Mets- close to their budget. Spent on Cespedes and Bruce recently. Their young arms will get paid soon.
Marlins- rebuilding. They could pick up some one year bargain deals to flip at the deadline.
Phillies- a team close to spending big. Machado next year ?
Atlanta-still in rebuilding- a year or two from spending on free agents
AL east-
Yanks- added biggest contract in the game- striving to get under the tax.
Red Sox-over the tax. Have many young players about to get expensive. Spent big recently (Price, Panda, Hanley) currently pursuing top free agent hitter.
Rays- never spend big on free agents
Jays-Top player about to hit free agency- they could do more to compete.
Orioles-this team needs a rebuild
AL central-
Indians- loaded and have trade chips to add to their needs
Twins- could add to decent team thru free agents
Tigers-rebuilding, huge spenders in the past
White Sox- still in rebuilding
Royals- just had a fantastic run- time for a rebuild
AL- West
A’s-never spend big on free agents
Rangers-big spenders in the past. Currently have some bad contracts
Angels-offseason winners as of right now. Could add a Darvish fo the right price
Seattle-spent in the past (Cruz, Cano) and big extensions (King Felex, Seager). Could add a starter for the right price.
Astros- best team on paper and the field. Can wait until deadline to add if anything is needed.
Players agreed to the current CBA and are unhappy. Tough to feel sorry for them and blame the owners. I do believe players should get every dime they can.
Fans should be more concerned with the owners tanking seasons and lining their greedy pockets even more. This affects the integrity of the game. Bottom line is that the need for a salary cap on the floor is needed as much as the cap for ceiling.
I don’t know enough about Morrison to answer this question:
Why is there so much interest in Hosmer and very little discussion about Morrison? He seems way more valuable