First baseman Paul Goldschmidt, he of the career .297/.398/.532 line, was one of the most coveted assets on the offseason trade market. After a bitterly disappointing end to the Diamondbacks season, in which the club won just eight out of their final 28 games after staking a claim to top of the division on August 30th, a full-scale shuffling of parts was sure to be in order. The club was almost certainly set to lose ace Patrick Corbin, who this week signed a monster $140MM deal with Washington, plus center-field stalwart A.J. Pollock, who, despite several injury-marred campaigns, posted a robust 14.9 fWAR in his final five seasons with the team. And flimsy depth on the 25-man roster and in the upper minors paired with a system devoid of high-impact talent to offer a mostly inauspicious outlook in seasons to come.
Was it finally to time to cash in on the organization’s most valued trade chip? The answer, in the end, was a resounding “yes”: On Wednesday, the organization finally agreed to a package with the 31-year-old’s most oft-rumored suitor, the St. Louis Cardinals. 25-year-old right-hander Luke Weaver and catcher Carson Kelly, 24, are the two most notable pieces going back to Arizona in the deal; Andy Young, a 24-year-old minor league infielder, and a Competitive Balance Round B pick are also part of the return for the D’Backs.
Goldschmidt, of course, is entering the final year of a contract that will pay him just $14.5MM in 2019. His presence figures to move defensive yo-yo Matt Carpenter back to his original home at third base, where the 33-year-old has, encouragingly, graded out as mostly above average with the glove in limited time over the last two years after a series of dreadful campaigns in the middle portion of the decade.
Infielder Jedd Gyorko and 1B/COF Jose Martinez, then, would seem to be left bench-ridden, and could be prime trade chips in the weeks to come. Speculatively, major bullpen upgrades could be in order — as a whole, the unit posted an abysmal 4.50 xFIP and 4.34 BB/9 last season, both of which ranked in the bottom five across the league. Though the departing package was significant, the Redbirds are left with a most prominent feather in their collective cap: with nine big-league-tested starting pitchers in the fold for next season, and a super surplus at catcher — the immortal Yadier Molina, plus top prospect Andrew Knizner — the Cards figure to lose very little in present-day value.
For the Diamondbacks, the return may have eclipsed even their wildest hopes, with one executive reportedly dubbing the package a “boatload.” Weaver and Kelly come with a combined 11 seasons of team control, and each should project around league average in the upcoming campaign. Kelly, a former top 50 prospect, seems especially intriguing — with the offensive baseline at catcher approaching its all-time nadir (catchers slashed a putrid .232/.304/.372 as a whole last season, for an 84 wRC+), the 24-year-old needs only to supplement his sterling defense with marginal offensive production to become an above-average big leaguer.
So, how would you grade this deal for each club?
B for Cardinals. They got a great first baseman for one year. A for dbacks because not many teams need a first baseman and are contending in 2019. They got probably the best offer they were going to get
Anyone with common sense would grade Cardinals an A, straight up theft. They gave up prospects that had no use in their org for a consistent MVP candidate year by year even if its for 1 year.
Ok. I’d give the Cardinals a F in the trade. Why the heck did they trade for a first baseman? They should have traded for a catcher. They didn’t need goldschmidt and will definitely regret it
You disparaged Yadi. Brace yourself, there is a storm headed your way
None of these simpletons ever think trading for a established players is ever a bad deal. Nobody ever holds these people accountable for their opinions 2 or 3 years down the line. That’s why everyone thought the cano deal was great.
Cards don’t need a catcher. Even though Yadi is getting into the twilight, he still is a top 5 catcher and the have Andrew Knizner waiting in the wings. They have just traded for a top 5 player and was in need for offense in bad way, they achieved that in that trade. They traded players that had no future on the major league level.
I was joking
Cardinals fans never do when it comes to the internet…
“Everyone thought the Cano deal was great”. Are you kidding? A lot of people have it. Personally I thought it was the dumbest trade I’ve seen in recent years. The Mets are beyond idiotic.
No completely sold on knizner he only had a small sample size in triple a, but Carson Kelly wasn’t progressing the way they wanted behind Molina so good trade by the cardinals even if they did trade weaver
That would be incorrect, in your original comment. I’d say a 50-50 chance the Cards resign Goldy. Even if they don’t, the price was not that high for a one year rental.
Andy Young is likely to never be more than reserve depth at the MLB level. Weaver will never be more than a 4-5 starter of average quality for that slot. Kelly? Maybe you luck out there, maybe not.
Your original comment was not accurate; your follow-up is trollish.
My take: link to socraticgadfly.blogspot.com
you clearly don’t follow Cardinal baseball if you grade this an F and think they should’ve traded for a catcher
The price wasn’t that high for a 1 year rental!?! Jesus, I’d hate to see what the Cards would have to of given up for you to consider it a high price!!
Hell yeah they gave up a high price. Analysts and GMs alike were even suprised how much the D-Backs were able to get from the Cards…But surely people that do it for a living don’t know what they’re talking about..
Just because a team trades from a position of strength, that doesn’t mean those players don’t hold significant value. That’s value that they could have used to improve the team elsewhere for more pressing needs.
That’s like the Braves trading away Soroka or Toussaint, Pache, a C prospect, and say Jenista for a 1-year rental at CF..To improve a decently productive player, but saying it doesn’t matter that they traded Touki or Soroka and Pache because they already have depth at the position…
Look at previous 1-year rentals, and the returns they’ve gotten. Typically, a team gets 1 solid prospect, and a bunch of fillers.
The Cardinals gave up a solid, young, and cost-controlled #2-#3 SP, an ML-ready excellent defensive C, with at least a slightly above average bat, AND they gave up a COMP. B pick, which is a draft crapshoot, but nontheless it is a pick that still holds a high value, you’re looking at guys like Aj Minter, Honeywell, Brian Anderson, Luzardo, among several others..Not to mention the pick also adds to your draft bonus capital, which could tremendously help assisting towards signing an overslot player or two..
I still think the Cardinals got am excellent player in Goldy, but they gave up A LOT to get him, especially if it’s only for 1 year..
I, personally, graded the trade a B for the Cards, and an A for the D-Backs, as there is no way anyone was going to give them what they ultimately received…
However, if the Cards truly only get Goldy for one year, than that grade has to go down significantly. If Goldy leaves, the only way it could be seen as a win for the Cardinals is if they make a very long post-season run..Anything short of that, then it’s a failure, but if he resigns, then I’d still keep the B for the Cards, solely for their overpay..
I don’t have any doubt they could have gotten the deal done without including the comp pick, if they would have waited longer. They felt the pressure to get the deal done before the Winter Meetings, and that fear cost them their Comp pick..
If Goldy leaving after one year means your grade for the Cards goes down, you should have given them a lower grade in the first place, as there was no formal or informal agreement that Goldy would stay in STL beyond this season. So you need to grade them based on what they objectively got out of the trade, which was one year of Goldy. Anything that happens after that is a separate and irrelevant transaction.
No future “with the Cardinals” is what should have been used here. Weaver performed well enough for around 1.5 years Kelly will be a good every day MLB backstop for years
Great breakdown all I can say to this is #FREEDOTEM Doug
lol. the guy has not been hood in years.
lol. ya right
lol still stuck in the past? yes he was a good catcher once. not anymore
weaver still cant established him self and Carson cant hit a beach ball
The only joke is the band Slipknot. How are they even still around??
Cardinals should offer Goldy a 5 year 140 million dollar contract since he is now 31. With a mutual option for a 6th year.
That sounds about right, 5/$140 for Goldy as a new contract.
Just because they “had no use in their org” doesn’t diminish their value overall. That’s simple economics.
Seems i need to explain myself. Because c1234 said “anyone with common sense”, it says clearly he disagreed with my B grade. So instead of going with an A grade to go with the majority of the voters, i just wanted to mess with him and say stuff that was completely different than what i said. I still go with what i originally said that they got a great first baseman for one year. Itd be awesome to see him stay longterm too. He is a good bat and what i heard, he is a good team leader. Obviously they dont need a catcher unless its a backup to yadier. Kelly wasnt going to get any regular playing time until molina retired. It made sense to trade him. And with how much depth the cardinals have in their rotation, it would have been hard to find a spot for weaver and the dbacks needed to fill a spot. Especially if they do trade greinke. Dont know how many teams had interest in goldschmidt besides the cardinals and rays and most of the contenders dont need a first baseman outside of the nl west. Even the mets will bring up Alonso from the minors a couple of weeks into the season. Sorry if i confused you guys. Thanks
You really didn’t confuse anyone…Just the typical ppl here and biased fans taking their usual extreme stances..
The trade is clearly an A for the D-Backs, and it has to be a B for the Cards.
The Cards clearly overpaid just to make sure they got the man they wanted. They didn’t want to drag it out, and have someone else scoop him up during the Winter Meetings.
There’s nothing wrong with that, but it has to be factored into a grade for them. Also, the whole nonsense from Cards fans about well, we had depth, so it doesn’t matter is just nonsense..Regardless, whether or not you have depth, players still hold value..The Cardinals still had more pressing needs than 1B, and they gave up an extremely valuable Comp Pick..All those things have to be factored in when reviewing the trade..
Yes, the Cards got an awesome 1Bmen, but yes, they also gave up too much..It is that simple, and idk why Cardinals fans are getting so defensive about it..
Ok. Thanks. Because 1 like and 17 dislikes makes me think i said something off and i thought I was clearly joking after just saying that i gave the cardinals a B. Thanks though
Was shocked people were taking it so serious
#FREEDOTEM
agree. the prospects are far more suspect than prospects. cards never trade away good people. I dont know why teams dont realize this. this is just the league overating their prospects because of their history. cards farm sucks.
How is that only a B for the Cardinals? They got a top 10 hitter for basically nothing.
Right. I would be quite surprised if Weaver gets above 1.5 WAR in either of the next two years; fairly surprised if he does that in next three. Kelly may break out. Or he may not. And, as I said on my blog post above, Young will never be more than a Greg Garcia or Yairo Munoz.
It’s all good except Goldy now has to live in St Louis.
Burn…
Yeah because living in heat stroke capital of the United States is so much better. 125 degrees with global warming getting worse, you are better off living on Mars!
Having been to stl more than once, I don’t think he upgraded…
Been to both. I’ll take Arizona any day over Missouri.
“125 degrees with global warming getting worse,….”
Actually davidkaner;
The last 2 years both satellite and ground data show the earth a bit cooler, after barley negligible warming since 1999. Yes, bad news – if you haven’t inherited genetic issues, you’ll very probably live to be over 100.
Now – if you’ll keep politics off of here, so will I.
Deal?
It’s science not politics. Science has also proven that St Louis is a 1000 times better baseball town than Phoenix
Science can’t prove subjective opinions, unfortunately.
I agree we shouldn’t talk politics. Your data about the earth cooling tho is just not true. No respectable studies prove that
How can the earth be cooling with record breaking temps around the earth, and icebergs melting at alarming rates? Stop allowing Russ and Faux News to brainwash you and start paying attention to the actual weather.
People still believe the earth is flat even though science proves it isn’t. Similarly, people think baseball should be played in Arizona in the summer.
-ChiSoxCity
The people who are brainwashed are those that belong to the religion & cult of ‘climate change’ with fudged data that has been shown to be erroneous on numerous occasions.
If I hit the ball and it goes under the 3rd baseman’s glove, is it a hit or is it an error? It only matters to the opinion of the official scorers, not yours or anyone else’s, much like opinions on climate religion which are not fact. If a pitcher throws a slider and the umpire calls it a ball when pitch FX shows it was a strike, was it a strike or was it a ball in actual fact. Only the umpire’s opinion matters. (Subjective issues).
You need to stop allowing yourself to be part of the climate religion cult.
By the way can you point me to the fact of how old the world is and how long ‘climate change’ has been observed. Are there any observable statistics before 1850 that you can provide me with regarding your theories. And last but not least, you shouldn’t talk politics here-because politics is what climate cult religion is, it isn’t fact based science. The ‘models’ are flawed and fraud.
Re: “Similarly, people think baseball should be played in Arizona in the summer”
Last time I looked, the D-Backs had a retractable dome stadium, where the temp never hits 80 degrees when they close the roof.
Meanwhile, even the ants and grasshoppers avoid the ballpark in St. Louis, where each fan is given a Sweat Rag and a stick of Right Guard when they enter the park.
Hell, even the Texas Rangers are building a new domed stadium, ostensibly the only hotter place on earth than the infield in St. Louis. They don’t even have to cook the hot dogs in St. Louis. By the time the franks get to a customer, they are already oven-hot.
As a Cards fan, this made me laugh a lot. Busch Stadium I was the worst. I used to call it the toilet bowl. The “Arch” architecture looked cool from afar, but absolutely zero breeze since it really was just a big bowl. Busch Stadium II gets a much better breeze now with the back blown out, but I agree, it can get quite swampy in there and in the rear of your pants.
We have high humidity here in the summer it is mostly the issue and last time I went to STL “which was yesterday as we are building a new 30 story residential tower for BPV it is not Busch 2 with the astroturf field from the 80’s.
its called climate change.
it changes not just heats up
yes their are you dumb ads
they can take core samples of ice and get the temperature form almost any time in history. you might want to read a book
It’s actually really cold on mars
have u been to st Louis. ya park is nice but the town is giant getto
Did you explore the entire city?
He can live in St Peters, ranked 19th best city in the US to live in 2 years in a row.
St. Charles and O’Fallon, MO also routinely make that list. Really, most places in St. Charles County are excellent.
It’s still Missouri.
Ballwin ranked even higher
I take it you don’t live in the greater STL area and know only what u see & read about it. A lot of new development and renovation downtown. #FREEDOTEM download the 590 the fan app and listen to “The Morning After” from 7-10 a.m. it is a great show or find on the podcast of your choosing thanks
I am have see a town that has one nice are and the rest is giant ghetto
And? At least the Cards didn’t have to take that ridiculous Grenke contract. What a great contract that was. The main reason the Cardinals now have the best player the D-Bags ever had.
St. Louis is a nice city.
He’ll be here all week folks..try the veal
St Louis is not a nice city! Many suburbs of St Louis are nice, but St Louis itself is not.
Ballpark village which surrounds Cardinals stadium is nice and fun.
Ballpark Village and the stadium do not make the city nice!
This coming from a braves fan lmao
That is St. Louis and it is nice don’t know what you mean? Also, Washington Avenue is nice. Maybe your think of East Stl Illinois side. That is not good area. All city’s have good and bad spots.
Washington ave is a trap, looks nice but way above dangerous and please dont go 1 block north.
I’m a Cardinal fan and I’ll admit St. Louis is not the nicest city, some neighborhoods look like a tornado went through it with spray paint. Also up there in murder rates among American Cities. There was also a shooting at ballpark village. But overall the fans are great and you stay out of the sketchy places St.Louis is okay to be at.
Atlanta is 10 better. no one makes a special trip to st Louis but they do to atl
Most people that don’t live in St. Louis says it’s trash, but they have no clue and haven’t taken time to explore. They only talk about East St. Louis (which is actually different).
St Louis is surrounded by nice towns. The city itself has some issues it needs to resolve.
Name some issues that any moderate to large metropolitan area doesn’t have.
Most people that say it’s nice don’t live there either. they moved to the suburbs for a reason
Yah downtown Chiraq, NY, Philly, Cinci, Detroit, are all great plus about 5o other cities. There are certain parts of all those towns you need to stay frosty. Get real…
Or the fact that downtown parts of cities are traditionally for young people and people moves to the suburbs when they have families. At which part, parents become critical of the young, downtown lifestyle… just food for thought
Lived in the city of St. Louis (63104) for 10 years. Will confirm that the city is trash
San Diego is pretty much the best place.
The fact is that St. Louis has one of the top baseball teams with a great surrounding area to the stadium, one of the top man made monuments in the country, a great riverfront with bars and restaurants, a decent hockey team, and even a decent wine country not too far away. The worst part about St. Louis can be said about any midwestern city and that’s the weather. No, St. Louis isn’t Chicago or New York or Los Angeles, but that doesn’t make it a bad city. St. Louis is a better city and has more to offer than pretty much any midwestern city other than Chicago or maybe Kansas City if you are really into BBQ.
the only nice things i have to say are toasted and ravioli.
Missouri is not the midwest. Maybe geographically speaking, sure. But it has more in common with the south in many ways.
Could not agree more. Technically it is Midwest and based on weather, it should be classified as the Midwest, but anybody that has ever lived there or spent more than a 3 day business trip in St. Louis will tell you that it definitely feels like a southern city.
it’s as close to mideast as midwest. more like central
lol
lol
lol you need to travel
Great city bad rep. Ferguson made STL look bad.
I gave both a B. It was tough I couldve given both A’s.
The poll isnt working on the app, just so you know.
Polls are always just a measure of B votes.
They should sign a 3b and put Carpenter at 2b. Wong is not good!
I’ll take light hitting at 2B for the defense Wong gives any day. Especially on a team that has performed very poorly on defense the past few years. 2B is one of the lightest hitting positions anyways. Only C and CF accept as low of an offensive output at 2B so give me Wong’s gold glove caliber defense all day.
Besides, Wong posts a decent AVG and OBP most of the time.
People just dont understand what defensive runs saved means.
Did you post this as an invitation to get roasted?
I’d vote yes. There is no way someone in good faith could post that.
Anyone who thinks Carpenter is even close to capable as a 2nd baseman is delusional.
League average offensive hitter, elite defensive player. Improved under more contact orientated approach later in the season.
I honestly think it’s a very good trade for both.
A for the Dbacks as they get controllable talent that has a chance to be above league average, even if not anything spectacular.
C+ for Cards as they get a guy who should be a stud hitter in the middle of the order. However, it keeps the lineup right hand dominant. Also, this trade only becomes good if Goldy is great and signs an extension. If he is either bad or even good, but doesn’t sign an extension, the only way this helps the Cards is if they make a deep playoff run in 2019.
I’m a die hard Cardinals fan and would have rather seen them sign Moustakas for something like 2 or 3 years at 8-10M AAV, or package better assets for a more controllable player.
If the thought of extending Goldy was a must for you then you should have waited a year and signed him. You never trade for a rental and just say “It’s ok, we can extend him” unless he agrees to a sign-and-trade. The Cardinals should have learned that after what happened with Heyward.
However, this trade will look fine for the Cards if they can make the playoffs in 2019, regardless of where Goldy goes after that.
Exactly my point, that’s why I have the grades that I did and mentioned my bit about the playoffs. I think the front office was just under so much pressure to make a move for a big name that they pulled the trigger to keep fans at bay. I also wasn’t a big fan of the Ozuna trade last year.
Even more so, the picture of Goldy’s press conference is so awkward with Mo and Dewitt Jr holding the jersey with Goldy and Girsch just awkwardly to the side. Weird how Mo and Girsch both got elevated, but it doesn’t feel like Girsch has any weight in the organization considering he has the “GM” title.
Heyward was an anomaly obviously and what a break for the Cardinals. Cubs would love to unload that contract…lol
For Heyward to be an anomaly you must present evidence that shows a pattern that he broke away from.
There’s rules to this sort of thing
McGwire, Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday
So nobody recently?
You just rattled off a list of players currently retired…
All those guys are from the last 2 decades. Not like he named off people from the dead ball era. Relax. Also, just for the record, Holliday isn’t retired yet, although he’s just about there.
And it’s not like you can trade for a big name every year and sign them to an extension so I’m not exactly sure what you were looking for. The pattern is that when the Cardinals make moves for a big name player, more often than not lately, that have enjoyed it enough to sign an extension.
Are any of those guys from this decade? I can’t remember exactly when the Holliday deal was, admittedly.
So basically the scenario so many say is a given has happen once under the current leadership, and failed at least once… But the failure is the anomaly because you want to believe it’s true?
This is why Cardinals fans have a certain reputation outside their own circles…
How was Heyward an anomaly? Most players who are traded when they are eligible for free agency within the next year end up going to free agency?
Matt Holliday didn’t sign an extension genius. The Cardinals traded for him. Period. Then they outbid everyone else for him in free agency. Period. He would have signed in STL anyway. So that’s 3 guys out of how many? In how many years?
“The pattern is that when the Cardinals make moves for a big name player, more often than not lately, that have enjoyed it enough to sign an extension.”
3 guys since the current century started isn’t “more often than not lately.”
Actually it is considering they haven’t traded for many big name players. I think you need to understand the full context of statements…
Remember this. I’ll be back in November when Goldy makes it to free agency.
I’m not saying he will resign. In fact, in my post about the grades, I said the deal won’t look very good if he doesn’t resign. I was merely pointing out that the examples provided of players that did resign wasn’t from the industrial revolution as others made it sound like.
I’m not saying I like what Heyward said when he chose the Cubs, but I can’t disagree with the fact that the Cardinals core is aging and looked like their window is closing. I feel like Goldy should take that into account as he is already 31 and if he does, he will likely sign somewhere else.
More likely that the Diamondbacks pull a Chapman with Goldy than it is that he signs an extension at this point.
this is not 20 years ago
Totally disagree red rooster…I understand what you are saying but if Goldy gets to know the organization and likes it…winning helps also then he will be more inclined to sign there…plus the cardinals dealt from depth…I wish nothing but the best for those players but the cardinals didn’t need them
That’s exactly what Cardinals fans said about Heyward…
You mean like how getting to know the organization and winning made Jason Heyward more inclined to sign with STL?
One person…lol you guys are comparing this because of one person…like said before this idea has worked out more than it hasn’t lol keep mentioning Heyward lol I understand it might not work out but like I said he will be more inclined to sign with an organization he knows…especially if the dollar amounts are the same…
Oh, there are plenty more. Heyward is just the most recent and the most egregious considering he was a premium free agent at the time. The hefty majority of players traded within a year before they are eligible for free agency do go to free agency.
Except it hasn’t worked out more often than not, which is the point
Cardinals fans cling to some desperate belief everyone wants to be a Cardinal and they can sign anybody they want… Because let’s ignore the last decade when they haven’t really signed anybody they really wanted because those players wanted to play in bigger markets…
But hey, about 5 CBAs ago it happened occasionally
Yup and let’s act like we never wanted Jason Heyward to sign with us…
I like how you guys act like all cardinals fans think that…it is obviously evident that not all players want to play in St. Louis…I’ve always said unless the cardinals are winning no one is going to sign to come to St. Louis…you guys are just ignorant in thinking that “all cardinals fans think” lol no not all fans think that…maybe the fans that you argue with on here do but trust me not all think that…get over yourselves in thinking that ignorance…this was a good trade because the cardinals dealt from depth and got one of the best players in the MLB…if he signs back good if not I’ll take the draft pick…at least they aren’t tanking
I actually enjoyed the discussions with rooster and petrie until now. Now it’s starting to sound like some jealous ex girlfriends at a bar bashing the same person. Look, every fan base has some insufferable people, doesn’t mean that you should make broad generalizations that every fan acts and thinks a certain way…
They have signed a lot of players they wanted, the signings just didn’t work. They signed Cecil when they needed a Lefty and he was the top lefty on the market. It didn’t work out. They signed Fowler when they needed a lead off hitter and CFer and he was the top one on the market. The first year was great, the second year was absolutely awful. They signed Holland when he was coming off a season in which he was a fairly dominant closer (albeit with pretty big red flags), he was awful. So basically, 1 player who was getting paid the same amount no matter where he went had no desire to go to St. Louis and Heyward chose elsewhere. Every other significant free agent we know of who chose to go elsewhere was because elsewhere paid them more money. Even with Heyward, he chose less overall money but the higher aav from the reported offers which suggests he was betting on himself to continue to produce and get more at the opt out.
Who?
I didn’t.
Moustakes wouldn’t be an upgrade over what they already had in Gyorko (more power, but less OBP, similar defense). Goldschmidt definitely is.
Yes, but Moustakas is a lefty hitter, which the front office has stated that they want to get more balanced at the plate to make opponents have to be more thoughtful with their bullpen late in games.
Good to see someone with some sense.
You’d rather have Moustakas than Goldy? Are you high?
The article was ridiculous in that the writer did not evaluate the trade for the Cardinals. The old adage is who ever gets the best player usually wins the trade. Goldschmidt is a great player and will elevate the Cardinals , while the Cardinals did not trade a player that cant be replaced. Cardinals crushed it.. Goldschmidt will now find out what it is like to play for a real baseball city for the next 6 or 7 years. Love playing golf at Desert Mountain in the winter time though.
How can he “find out what it is like to play for a real baseball city for the next 6 or 7 years” when they only have him for 1 year?
Dexter Fowler’s gonna tell him how great the fans are and he’s gonna rush to sign an extension
Laughed out loud at this! But I’d say that Goldy has a better chance to fit with a Southern style city than Fowler, whether that is right or wrong, it’s the way it is right now. I like Fowler a lot and think he has gotten a raw deal so far and I don’t blame him at all for some hard feelings he has. The fans have not been supportive at all of him and were pretty appalling during the situation with his wife last year.
Fowler is a lazy uninspired player who had that reputation in Chicago. The fans were very patient with him. I thought he was a Jai Alai player. He played every ball off the wall including ones he should have caught. You dont know what you are talking about. How about asking Gibson, Ozzie, and lou Brock how the fans are ….you obviously dont have a clue of what you are talking about…
I’d rather ask somebody who’s actually played in this millennium.
And making stuff up doesn’t help ones credibility. Fowler never had a bad rep in Chicago, everybody loved him.
As somebody who is a Cards fan and lived in Chicago watching Fowler play for the Cubs, you are crazy. Cubs fans loved Fowler and he played hard given the foot and heel issues that have bothered him for a while. Plus, you almost always play balls off the wall in Wrigley due to the brick behind the ivy and the chance you get to have the ball get lost in the ivy to keep a double from being a triple.
As for many Cards fans, they are a traditional southern style. Meaning they didn’t give a crap about Fowler and his wife’s situation being a Muslim and trapped outside of the country. Ignorance led to many of Fowler’s hard feelings. It also doesn’t help when Mo publicly criticizes his effort versus everyone else on the team.
A writer for the Chicago Sun was interviewed on 101 espn in St. Louis and he said it was well known that Fowler did not hustle and that Maddon had to tell him how much they needed him and how great he was everyday. I dont really care if you believe it or not. You can see it in his play. He does not hustle..it is obvious when you watch him. Also I will say I was surprised that if he had that reputation that the Cardinals traded for him. I hope he makes a comeback, but I doubt that he will.
Yeah, it’s quite clear you don’t care to hear how reality differs from your opinions.
So me pointing out one unnamed reporter for a paper that’s considered little better than a tabloid doesn’t quite prove that Fowler’s reputation in Chicago was ‘lazy’ will go right over your head as well
Was never impressed with Fowler. Surprised the Cardinals gave him that contract. Felt they’d have known better. Probably impressed with the high OBP.
The problem with speedy OF’s is that when they lose a half-step around age 30, their entire game changes. They get pitched a bit looser as the threat of them stealing 2nd after a walk is diminished, and balls they used to catch in the OF get by them. It’s what scares me about giving multi-years to AJ Pollack…..even more than his injury history.
Joe, you’re running around yelling at everyone for not having a clue…
You’re DEAD wrong about Fowler and the Cubs. He was beloved in Chicago.
Want him back?
Because if the Cardinals want him they will sign him… They have the money and I have zero doubt that he will love playing here. Sold out basically every night, always in the hunt and only the Yankees have a better legacy.. It will happen unless he ages in one year and the Cards dont want him.
Just like Jason Heyward, Right?
Gosh you are right! I forgot about the great Heyward…how is that working out now in Chicago…I heard they have no money to sign anyone..Gee I wonder if they would like to use some of that Heyward money? Seriously that was a good one… I know you were kidding …good one!!
That whizzing sound you heard was the point going right over your head
Obviously Heyward hasn’t worked out for the Cubs, but don’t act like The Cards didn’t want him. It was well documented they offered much more money than the Cubs signed him for, but he wanted no part in playing for that City. Obviously it worked out for St Louis, but it was pure luck and the fact he hates playing there not at all that the Cards didn’t want him. So don’t act different to sound like that’s a place where everyone can’t wait to play at. That’s just not true.
Gee, if the Cardinals can truly just sign whoever they want and playing there is so great, why not shoot for the moon and sign Mike Trout?
The fact that the Heyward contract isn’t working out well for the Cubs doesn’t change the fact that Cardinals fans 4 years ago were just as confident that Heyward would sign an extension with them as they are now with Goldy and not only did Heyward not do that, but he took a paycut to sign with a division rival (altho I believe that had more to do with the Cubs giving him opt-outs than not wanting to play in STL).
Heyward also liked the young core of the Cubs vs the old core of the Cardinals, which was pretty evident although the Cubs haven’t been as dominant as people expected.
Doesn’t matter! Cardinals fans SWORE that Heyward would extend with them despite this. So why didn’t he?
You’re getting so bent out of shape bud. I wasn’t even disagreeing with you. Sounds like you just came here to argue. If all you want to do is get in arguments, just go get married.
As for having a civil conversation about Heyward’s intentions with free agency, I for one never got the feeling he wanted to stay. He never formed close friendships with other players on that team and he was also a disappointment on the field so I’m sure he didn’t want to sign a deal where the fans were so critical of him already. Turns out that he got the same treatment in Chicago though because he just can’t figure out how to get back to his rookie offensive prowess.
You’ve actually been one of the few who have acknowledged that there is a very good chance Goldy goes to free agency. Personally I feel that if anyone were to extend him, it would have been AZ.
Anyway, hindsight being 20/20, Goldy definitely would have just rolled the dice on going the arbitration route when he first broke into the league. I imagine he wants to actually get paid what he is worth now.
they were good. the dynasty is over. DeWitt won’t spend money. their farm is drained and they lost the front office that built it. plus they dont have access to others CPUs anymore. Cubs brewers and reds are on the way up. cards got no way to stay competitive. this will be their last year for a while.
“A real baseball city”???. Phoenix is the baseball Mecca. Home to the Dbacks, Cactus League spring training, the AZ Fall League, AZ Rookie League, superb college baseball, nationally recognized JC and HS programs (AZ is fifth amongst states turning out pro baseball players), the AZ Summer League and instructs baseball. What an ignorant comment.
St. Louis – 95.6% of seats sold in 2018… Mecca – 56.9%
I’m only giving the Cards a B because they will probably only have Goldy for one season. If he had 2 seasons left on his contract, I’d cal it an A++
I’m giving it an A+. Absolutely love the deal for the Cardinals!
And as Goldy said everyone would love a chance to play in St Louis. Greatest organization in all of baseball. Always has always will be!
Ditto!!!
I give the Cardinals a giant ass on this trade. This has nothing to do with the talent of their acquisition but more what they gave up for a one year rental. Many people will say they can just re-sign him but we all know how the Cardinals do business a guy like Goldschmidt is going to come and at least a five-year deal for at least 100 million and that is not the Cardinals bag.
Double the money, tack on about 3 years, and your sort of in the ballpark of what he gets on the open market
Think you and others are going to be surprised about future long-term expensive contracts.
It’s happening slowly. But as more teams get stuck with contracts that sabotage their payrolls for years, it’s scaring teams away. Look at Corbin – the best FA pitcher on the market this year. While over a dozen teams inquired, only 3 were in him…..and we find that the Yankees never got to the point where they made a formal offer.
The entire salary compensation system in MLB will be overhauled in the next 5 years. Brainstorming discussions have already begun.
No it won’t. The players union has to sign off on any ‘overhaul’ and there’s not enough flaming idiots in the union that they’d surpress their own earnings potential.
Everything you said is based on unfounded speculation and wishful thinking. You’re basically arguing that because Corbin got the kind of contract you claim teams are going away from, that it proves teams won’t give out those kinds of deals in the future…
Theories need to be made to fit facts, not vice versa
Naturally the players union are in on the negotiations……
Many guys in their first 6 years are underpaid.
To you petie, everyone is ignorant. By the time you find out, it’ll be a done deal.
You have no clue.
They’re underpaid because they’re not members of the union when they’re forced to sign those contracts
The union bargained away the negotiating rights of non-members in exchange for a larger payout to actual members
I have a clue, and lucky for you I’m willing to share, since you seem to have misplaced yours…
Yeah 5 years and 100 million is WAY light on what it would take to extend him.
I gave the Cards a B. I love Goldy but didnt think they needed to prioritize 1b. But they gave up guys that didnt have a future in their org. I gave the D-Backs an A because they got some useful controllable guys.
I’m a Cubs fan and I still would give the Cardinals an A on this trade… Goldy is one of if not THE best hitting first baseman in baseball. I have no idea how anyone could grade it lower than an A.. The guys they gave up aren’t a needed part of their team and they got a fantastic player in return. I wouldn’t call them the best organization in baseball by any means.. The cheating they were caught for and the fact that receive a competitive balance pick even though they obviously don’t need it hinders that. I will say though that the new Busch Stadium is very nice, I got great seats to watch the Cubs win the division a couple years ago and the fans were polite and I enjoyed talking with them.
I remember the time I watched the Cardinals win the division at Wrigley. The fans were obnoxious and rude. But fun watching the Cardinals celebrate on their field.
2013 I believe
And the Cubs won the division and celebrated on their field in 2016 or 2017. So what
Cardinal fans are just Angels and treat everyone great. Lol. They’re notoriously awful and it’s well known that many guys hate that city. They missed on Heyward after offering much more, but they lucked out he hated it there like a lot of others do. So it wasn’t at all them being smart. They just had the “luxury” of being a place he hated.
Not according to Goldschmidt and I quote. He’s never heard of any major league player not wanting chance to play in St Louis and to play in front of their fans. It’s as we all know the best place to play baseball in the entire MLB.
Well he’s either trying to sound good to his new organization (which is my guess). Or he’s massively misinformed. Heck just last year Stanton refused to waive his no trade to go there when he was willing to go to Chicago among others. That narrative that everyone loves St. Louis has been proven wrong over and over in recent years.
@themed
Dream on
You might want to read what Goldschmidt said at his news conference. His words not mine. But no doubt most major leaguers would jump at the chance to play for the Cardinals indeed.
My prior post and many many other players in recent years have proven that there are Lot of players who don’t want to play in St. Louis. I gave you an example that happened recently with Stanton completely denying the Cardinals who wanted him badly. Is Goldschmidt not familiar with Stanton? Obviously he is familiar and is just saying what people in the organization want to hear. So who cares what he’s saying because it’s clearly not accurate and he’s saying what people want to hear.
This reads like a Donald Trump tweet.
I think Wrigley has that effect on people haha. I like to think I’m a pretty respectable Cardinal fan (even rooted for the Cubbies a bit during 2016), but get a few Old Style beers in me and all bets are off. Wrigley is one of the funnest places to take a game in.
The organization didn’t get caught cheating…one guy in the organization got caught…you can’t blame an entire organization on one guy…if that’s the case should we blame the cubs organization for what Russel did? Not to mention tanking
One employee wasn’t fined heavily and stripped of draft picks
He was suspended and probably won’t be on the team much longer though..yes the organization got punished for ones mans actions…oh yea so did the cubs organization…he was suspended
Your tortured attempts to bring Russell into this are only embarrassing you further
The statement that the Cardinals didn’t cheat even though major league baseball says they cheated is already embarrassing enough
Lol MLB said one guy cheated…yes the organization got punished..they had to punish the organization yes… also the FBI concluded it was only one guy and he is in prison now…now go tank again
One guy who said the rest of the organization knew about it because he told them he was doing it…
Seriously, just accept your now in the mud with the rest of us, it’ll be better for your dignity
Lol no he did not…he said only he did it lol just stop lol now you look like a fool…he clearly admitted it was only him…plus that is what the FBI said lol
“MLB says it found no evidence a Cardinals employee other than Correa hacked into the Astros’ database, so no one else with the team has been disciplined. The club has been fined because ultimately, this happened on their watch. Manfred said he found Houston “suffered material harm” that is “not amenable to precise quantification.”
link to google.com
He did. in court. on the stand. Under oath. more than once.
As part of his plea deal when he admitted guilt.
Reality isn’t that scary. Come back to us.
Lol give me a link to something bud…don’t just ignorantly say something and expect me to believe petriee000 on mlb trade rumors
Google literally any news story about it. They asked him point blank in he told anyone what he found, because his defense was he was looking for incriminating evidence on the Astros
His response : my superiors
Whether you believe the facts or not is really none of my concern, being an idiot is technically a constitutional right of yours…
Lol I have googled it and have found nothing but what I have told you
I highly, highly doubt it, since every top story I get in my search results confirm it
But, like I said, if you wish to be an idiot, enjoy the blissful ignorance, just don’t expect to be taken seriously by anyone
Lol ok then simply send me the link
Pretty sure you know the link to googles home page
Well, actually, based on your responses so far, I kinda do doubt your ability to tell the obvious…
Ok do you want me to walk you this simple process…you go to the article in which you have found your proof…you click on the tool bar and highlight the website…you copy the website…you come back on Mlbtraderumors and post the article…easy stuff you can do it
If you haven’t seen what I’m talking about you deliberately never will, because you don’t want to. I’m not jumping through hoops to save you from yourself.
Lol ok then I can’t deliberately not if you post a link…sorry bud but I haven’t found anything you speak of…but go ahead and keep saying it without proof…you’re not much of a debater are you
You will if you look. But you won’t look. Because you’re afraid of what you’ll find
Which is why you started this by trying to deflect by saying what the Cardinals did was just as bad as the Cubs not non-tendering Russell
Again, if you want to be an idiot, I can’t stop you.
Feel free to post a link to any story that says the Cardinals definitively didn’t cheat, though.
Plus if someone is going to jail he might say anything…there was no proof that others knew…and that is according to the MLB and the FBI
Except if he was caught lying his plea bargain is null and void and he serves a longer sentence
So the Cardinals could have challenged his version of events and provided the evidence to prove he was lying
They did not
Yes, because nobody has ever lied under oath… you are so ignorant and clueless.
Correa has even said in his book since being in prison that he acted on his own accord feeling that Lunhow stole proprietary information when he went to the Astros and took stuff with him. That doesn’t make Correa justified in what he did, but it doesn’t make the entire Cardinal organization guilty by association. However, they were punished as a whole because Correa was part of the organization when he did what he did. It’s not that hard to understand. Not to mention, it wouldn’t have been hard to prove others were involved if they truly were.
At least we finally get you lot to accept that he actually did say he told the organization what he was doing, so there may be hope yet.
Not sure if you just can’t read or what, but no, I actually did not say he told the front office what he was doing. I’ll just chalk this up to your overall ignorance shown through multiple posts on this piece.
I read it, it’s the same pointless spiel the apologists have been using for years. He said on the stand he told them, said in his book he didn’t… And of course you believe the book because it serves the narrative that the Cardinals were just bystanders
Personally I don’t quite buy the foundation of your argument that he perjured himself on the stand and told the truth when he was getting paid for it…
You don’t believe he lied on the stand to try and get a lightened sentence when the Cardinals didn’t come to save him? And you don’t believe he told the truth after his sentence has already begun to be carried out and telling the truth can’t make his situation any worse?
Ignorance truly is bliss when it comes to fans of opponents…
As stated before, all the Cardinals had to do was present evidence he did lie to and there goes the lighter sentence. In a book, nobody can challenge you that way
So me believing he told the truth when there were actually consequences for lying,and lied when it was more profitable to do so makes ME the ignorant one?
Sure, let’s continue to pretend there’s any logic in that
And all Correa had to do was present evidence that he told his superiors. Shouldn’t be that hard to produce an email should it? Yet none was ever produced. Explain that.
Also, do you think people are flocking to Barnes and Noble to buy a book from a dude in a fairly obscure position in the Cardinals organization? You are acting like this dude is Scrooge McDuck and as soon as he gets out of prison, he’s going to go home and jump in his swimming pool of money. Get real.
The facts are that he was mad that the organization didn’t cover up for him, so he knew his only chance at getting a lighter sentence was saying that the organization knew and made him do it. Then when he finally goes to prison, he realizes nothing is going to make it worse so he ends up saying what really happened and how he was just surprised the FBI was so happy nail him for his cyber crime.
I’ve read excerpts from the book. Worth the read if you care to actually learn a little about the situation instead of regurgitating the common rival fanboy threads.
I think the only people who care what he had to say were delusional fans like you desperate to save face for the franchise.
He also did not, in fact, have to prove he told them if they did not challenge the assertion. Which they did not, so there goes that fantasy.
So the facts are he either lied and the Cardinals let him get away with it for some I explicable reason, or he lied in a book only Cardinals fans wanted to read… Objectively your case is still pretty weak since it relies entirely on the assertion not only Correa but the Cardinals acted frankly stupidly.
I guess I just have more faith in the intelligence of the front office than you, if you think the Cardinals let him get away with slander for not reason what so ever…
I don’t think the Cardinals really cared about a fired employee who committed a cyber crime slandering them especially since what do they have to gain by suing him? Would be a bigger PR issue for the organization and wouldn’t help then recoup and or gain anything.
Whatever helps you sleep at night that the big bad Cardinals got away with cheating when they gained no advantage. They only hurt the Astros, which is indisputable, but gained no significant advantage.
Rival fans always complain when a great franchise gets caught up in something negative. Same reason people always crap on the Yankees and Patriots and any other organization that has been wildly successful compared to the rest of the league.
If they’d proven to be innocent in the matter, it saves them a million dollars in fines and those draft picks,so you must really think they’re idiots if you believe any of this
Which is why I don’t understand why, if you love the team so much, you’d go this far down this rabbit hole. It only makes any sense if you honestly believe the owners are morons
The fine was only $2M, which is nothing to MLB teams. Cardinals cut Greg Holland and something like half of his $14M salary just because he sucked.
I think you may be the moron since you don’t seem to do research before posting. Do you know what litigation costs in high profile cases? I guarantee you as myself being an insurance professional who deals with litigated cases all the time that the potential for runaway defense costs is much higher than a $2M fine. Especially when the bad PR for suing a former employee would destroy public perception and current employee morale, no matter how false the employee claim may be. Get a clue.
Except it’s not litigation, it’s sending a packet of documents to the FBI showing innocence… That doesn’t cost more than 2 million dollars.
So your entire case for their innocence is that they don’t care about money, their reputation, or the future talent available to the team… They’re so foolishly arrogant they’d just let all that be taken away because…. You wanna supply a because? Is there a because?
If you’re gonna throw out words like ‘clueless’, you may want to complete your conspiracy theory first
While Manfred did find the club “liable for [Correa’s] misconduct,” he did, to borrow a phrase, draw a firewall between Correa and all other St. Louis employees. He cast Correa as a rogue operator and the club as unknowing and unsuspecting of his behavior.
I know, the ruling basically was even if Correa acted alone he’s still effectively the Cardinals so long as he’s employed by them, and at best the rest of the team was negligent
Which I buy, but unfortunately it means the Cardinals as an entity are guilty of what Correa did while a member of them
Which is why the claims of innocence ring hollow
What magic packet of documents are you talking about? You can’t prove innocence by sending a packet of documents that says we didn’t we receive an or note from our employee. The burden of proof is on Correa to prove that he told the Cardinals, not the other way around. I don’t get how you don’t see that? Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? Guess not. And it’s not foolishly arrogant. It’s weighing the cost of fighting slander from a convicted felon at the risk of making public perception worse and destroying company morale by fighting employees. Or accepting the $2M fine and move on in order to not rack of litigation costs. Why would a company sue a former employee with a net worth likely not even in the millions? I don’t think you look at things critically and think of the consequences long term.
You’re a mighty poor lawyer if you think innocence can’t be proven with the right documentation.
The Cardinals also were not on trial,so no, the burden of proof is not on Correa to prove anything.
If the Cardinals wanted to contest Correa’s claim, all the had to do was send proof for the FBI to review. Simple as that
So why didn’t they if they knew Correa was lying? They had everything to gain by contesting it
Innocent until proven guilty only applies to the government. They have to prove you guilty before punishing you. When. It’s he said/he said, winner is first person to prove it
But that’s, like, 1st year law…
I already mentioned I’m an insurance professional, not a lawyer, but you don’t have to be a lawyer to not be thick in the head like you. I never said innocence can’t be proven without documentation, but rather questioning how you expect somebody to prove their innocence agonist somebody saying they told you something when in fact they didn’t. What document could you provide that says “hey Correa didn’t actually tell us this”?
Correct, the Cardinals were not on trial, but in your hypothetical scenario, they would be going to trial against Correa to fight his slander.
The Cardinals has very little to gain by proving Correa was lying except a moral victory as very high expenses of other things such as litigation costs, negative public perception and lowered company morale for fighting a former employee. Plus there are laws for retaliating against whistle blowers, but that’s, like, 1st year law…
Lastly, innocent until proven guilty is not just for the government. What you are trying to refer to is criminal vs civil cases, and even then, your argument is incorrect. There is always a burden of proof to overcome by the plaintiff, whether criminal or civil, but that’s, like, 1st year law…
Hopefully you aren’t a lawyer, otherwise I feel bad for your clients.
God but your dense as a stump
Slander is if Correa lied and damaged the Cardinals. It doesn’t require a trial. If Correa was lying and damaging the Cardinals, and they let it happen, they let him get away with it
If they didn’t want to let him get away with it, they didn’t have to sue, they just had to present evidence he was lying. So you assuming there would e a trial of any sort is where it goes completely off the rails
Trail’s over, Correa’s entered a plea deal, one that requires him to tell the whole story under oath. If the Cardinals prove he didn’t, there is no million dollar litigation, it just invalidates the plea… And if that means any more trials, it’s at the government’s expense
So again we’re left with no benefit to the a Cardinals to let him get away with it… So you’re once again left with a theory with no purpose… If you’re right, the Cardinals lost on purpose… For no reason… Which fails basic logic
Think, then post.
I’ve thought about it and even done some research. Now I’m going to post after thinking just to meet your expectations. Nowhere in the plea deal does Correa state that he told the Cardinals he hacked the Astros system. Correa states that he accessed the Astros system and used the information to further his career, which it did. But how were the Cardinals to know that Correa wasn’t just the next big scouting and analytics up and comer in baseball? Should all employers being so distrusting of their employees?
@Cards81
I am embarrassed for you. How ignorant can you be?
Don’t be bud…I’m not worried about your feelings
@Cards81
Cardinals organization cheated. They got busted and you are embarrassed. I get it.
One person cheated…not the organization…yes he was part of it…but the whole point of this was you can’t judge an organization on one person…like I said…I don’t judge the cubs on the actions of one person
How’s about judging them for what they were punished for?
While Manfred did find the club “liable for [Correa’s] misconduct,” he did, to borrow a phrase, draw a firewall between Correa and all other St. Louis employees. He cast Correa as a rogue operator and the club as unknowing and unsuspecting of his behavior.
Maybe change your password when you leave and don’t make it “baseball123”
Both teams should be happy about this trade…but the dbacks should be really happy…like the article says…a good catcher is hard to find these days..dbacks just got their catcher for the next 6 years…Weaver should benefit from the spacious ballparks…he will be a good back of the rotation guy…plus they got a draft pick..d.backs really win this trade…but the cardinals dealt from depth and got their 3 hole hitter…so win-win
I give the Cardinals an A because they didn’t give up anything critical to next season or really the future. Their rotation is now, in no specific order, Flaherty, Martinez, Mikolas, Wainwright, Reyes, Wacha and Gant. 3 have health questions but at least they have proven they can pitch well when healthy.
The heart of the lineup is now Goldschmidt, Carpenter and Ozuna which is pretty good. They could use an upgrade in CF, 2B or SS but they aren’t putting out filler.
If they lose Goldschmidt after the year it may tilt to Arizona’s favor if Weaver finds his grove over the long haul. Maybe Kelley surprises but he looks to be a solid back stop and not a superstar.
You must not be a cardinals fan…upgrade at those positions? Delong was second in Roy voting his rookie year…Bader almost won a gool glove in CF only playing half a season…Wong should be a gold Glover…every team can’t have the best players st every position…I think they are just fine
Not a Cardinals fan but a baseball fan overall. Like I said they aren’t fillers but they are not consistent either.
A for Cards, F for D’backs. Maybe that was too harsh. Time will tell. All I know is that the “headliners” are very questionable. The rules are simple: Never get involved in a land war in Asia, only slightly less well known is this: Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line, and finally: when the Cardinals are giving up on (trading off) a young pitching prospect, you better believe you’re getting garbage. Adding in that CK is a glove first (and only) catcher, it’s hard to give the D’backs any love on this trade. I suppose lottery tickets may be more valuable than a supplemental pick for extending Goldy a QO next off-season.
There are plenty of contenders that he made a lot of sense for, especially the Astros, as rumored.
Lol CK was drafted for his bat…he had to switch positions and his bat fell off a little bit…but he hit .280 in AAA…just because he had limited playing time in the MLB and didn’t bat that well doesn’t make him a bad hitter…backs got their catcher for the next 6 years
Any chance D-backs pursue Goldschmidt if he joins the free agent market?
Honestly I’d say no. The Dbacks are likely going into at least partial rebuild mode, so I can’t see them paying what it would take to bring him back
Why? Smith will be ready by 2020 presuming he can find the power he had at Virginia.
Doubtful they could afford him next year. That was really why they traded him in the first place
Not necessarily. They could have wanted to add years of control to their roster (even at the expense of 2019) and been planning to bring him back all along (see: the Yankees with Aroldis Chapman at the 2016 trade deadline)
Cards got the best player, Cards won the trade. Don’t care for polls because the medium will always show true. The “B” lot will always be #1 or #2 in total vote count.
Who will have the best player from the trade in 2020 tho?
The Diamondbacks, because where PG plays in 2020 is not part of the trade. Maybe the trade impacts his future choice slightly; who knows.
Because the range of outcomes is so varied for all the players going to the Diamondbacks, it remains to be seen if a competitive MLB team would want any of them on their 25-man roster. Strictly in terms of overall WAR for each team, Arizona likely ends up with more (but not guaranteed). The value for the Cards is clearly in moving multiple averagish players (which they have too many of) and consolidating them into a star. If you have a glut and don’t trade them, you’ll lose them to roster crunch eventually. Good for both teams.
coldbeer says the Cards won the trade because they got the best player involved in it even though it’s next to impossible to win a win-now trade unless you win the World Series while you have the player in question or he stays around and you can confidently say that he wouldn’t have signed with you if you hadn’t traded for him first.
Martinez would be a nice player for the M’s. Four years of control and can slot him in the DH in place of Cruz.
Stl added the best player on their roster.
Its a win now acquisition, that not only looks to break the streak of 3 post season misses, but also wants to add a ring while Yadi and Carp are still on the roster.
Extension at market value? Pass.
To me, it really depends on if they can re sign him. That’s a lot to give up for a 1 year rental. STL in recent history hasn’t been able to get top FAs or even keep their own. They got Fowler by severely outbidding Toronto and that proved to be disastrous. If they do re sign him, I like the move for the Cards, but it’s still not enough to catch the Cubs or Brewers.
No, it depends on how they do in 2019. By your logic the Chapman trade was even more disastrous.
The Chapman trade was crucial to bringing back a World Series. So it should never be looked at as anything other than a major part to a World Series. If the Cards do the same, well then they can think the same.
Was the Chapman trade really crucial to bringing back a World Series though? Unless you put some serious stock in his intangibles the Cubs would have at least made it to the World Series without Chapman and if they hadn’t come back in game 7 Chapman would have been blamed for the loss after giving up that home run to Rajai Davis.
You’re kidding right? Chapman was literally the only reliever Maddon trusted late in the year. He was completely gassed, which is why he gave up the Davis homer. But there’s absolutely zero question the Cubs don’t win the Championship without Chapman. It’s silly to argue otherwise, so please stop.
Again, the Cubs basically steamrolled their way to the NL pennant. Then in the World Series the only game in which Chapman arguably made a positive difference was Game 5.
They may not even made the World Series without him. That Dodgers Series was tough too. I’ve got no idea why you’re going out of your way to act like Chapman wasn’t a positive to their Championship run, but it’s just not true at all. The Cubs weakest link was their bullpen and if you remove by far their best bullpen arm in ‘16 there’s literally no way they win the Worls Series
Plus it’s just a dumb argument, because the only thing known was that the Cubs won the World Series with the team they had. That series with the Indians was so so tight that you remove one decent piece from the Cubs and they for sure lose it. The Chapman trade will never be looked at as a loss regardless of how you’re spinning it because they won it all. Now if they lost to the Indians that’s a different story. All Cubs fans knew Gleyber was going to be a stud. But they didn’t lose, so your argument holds no water and I’m done discussing it because it’s just idiotic.
They had the best record in baseball in 2016 (2/3 of the season was without Chapman) and trounced the Giants and Dodgers in the NLDS and NLCS so they absolutely would have made it to the World Series anyway. Then in the World Series game 5 was the only game they won that they arguably would have lost without Chapman. I never said Chapman wasn’t a positive to their championship run, just that I’m not convinced they would have lost without him.
Yeah they didn’t need him in the regular season that’s obvious. But my point still stands that he was more important in their post season then you’re acting like he was. He was easily a top 5 player of importance in their playoff run. We clearly disagree on his importance in the playoffs. I don’t think there’s anything left to be said about it between us, as we are on different planets. But 99% of Cub fans wouldn’t undo that trade after the title. That’s a fact.
Well obviously they wouldn’t change anything considering the outcome they got. All I’m saying is the Cubs would have at least made it to the WS that year without Chapman and the only WS game where he made a positive difference was game 5. Games 2 and 6 the Cubs trounced the Indians. Game 7 Chapman almost blew for the Cubs.
Unless something disastrous happens I think the Cards get an A if Goldschmidt gets them back into the postseason. Even if he bolts they’ll get draft pick compensation they can pick up Carpenters option and move him back to 1st and pick up someone like Aranado. lol wishful thinking!
For the backs I’d give it a C but it can get better. They get a competitive balance pick out of it and If Kelly shows something on offense. Which is a pretty good bet with Chase Field. Then you got a solid defender with some pop who’s young. I think Weaver is nothing more than a 5th Starter. He had no clear path to starting which made him expendable.
Lol you sure can tell who’s a StLouis fan and who’s a Diamondback fan. Can’t anyone answer the question subjectively?
My god arguing over what city’s best?
Trade was good for both teams this year.
Next year Goldy will be back in AZ . His wife and kids are staying in AZ I just read.
Cardinals will sell goldy on st louis this year and extend him because of this. Everyone wins.
So since you have a crystal ball and everything, what is my future wife’s name and how and when will I die?
Rooster you set the bar too low. If jleve has a crystal ball, I want lotto numbers too.
I’d give a B- to the cards. Weaver being gone will hurt right away, and with one year of Goldy.. it’s a risky bet that this is their year.. In an increasingly tough NL Central. I give them a coin flips chance of winning the division at best.
As for the snakes, I’d go A-. Probably as much of a haul as they could get right now.
Weaver was like 9th on the depth chart at starter
should have traded to get belt and crawford. send carpenter and j martinez elsewhere. throw c nartinez somewhere too
Why not trade a year supply of IMO’s pizza for Mike Trout too? Sounds fair to me…
Instead of paying $15 million to Goldschmidt and trading away their prospects, St Louis could have paid $23 million to Donaldson to play 3B (or 1B).
I honestly think the Cardinals should have done what you mention. Even sign Donaldson to a $25M contract if that’s what it takes. Keep the prospects for a bigger, better haul that nets a player with more team control.
My thought is that the organization didn’t foresee Weaver or Kelly getting any better so this might be the best deal the Cardinals thought they could get in return for young guys who have proven valuable if unspectacular.
donaldson had a choice of teams, goldschmidt didn’t
I’m not a huge fan of grading trades. I’ll just say that I like the deal better for AZ.
@redrooster is your IQ really that low? Read my post…I’m not predicting it. I simply stated that’s what I read. Read between the lines, (or does that take to much brain power) If his wife and kids are staying in AZ one would assume he’s planning on coming back.
@zpgreen Sounds like you have already set the bar low. Go clean your trailer…
Still a great trade for both sides long as Goldy stays healthy. St Luis should be a serious contender next year.
Errrr… what? I’m assuming you are referring to my “crystal ball” comment which was directed at jleve618, not you. I literally said that Goldy is more likely to re-sign with AZ next year than he is to sign an extension. Go back to the hole you crawled out of.
You’re some sort of stupid. Nobody even replied to your comment, so good for you on flying off the handle for no reason. Maybe jleve is one of your burner accounts and that’s why you just flipped your wig? Not mention, you don’t even know the difference between subjectively and objectively in your original post. If anybody live in a trailer, my guess is that it’s you based on intelligence level…
As any GM will tell you, you can’t grade most trades until a couple years have passed. Like this:
1. Goldy hits 40 Bombs, wins MVP, and Cards win WS…A+, no matter what the players going to Arizona do.
2. Goldy hits .274, 24 Hrs, Cards finish 4th. Does not resign, Az. re-signs him as a F.A…like Aroldis Chapman. And Weaver wins 14 games, 2.7 ERA,,, Kelly becomes the starting catcher and wins the Gold Glove and Rookie of the year……that trade now gets a big F- for the Cards fans who are so exuberant now.
Right now, arguing about this trade is just hot air,,, waiting for Pitchers and Catchers to report.
As terrible as it is to see goldy go, snacks won the trade. Got a HUGE return for just a season out of goldy.
No they did not get a huge return Cards won the trade hands down. Move on everyone to the next move.