The Angels and Indians have discussed a trade involving right-hander Mike Clevinger, MLB.com’s Jon Paul Morosi reports. Talks between the two clubs have seemingly stalled, however, or at least “there has not been active dialogue in recent days,” as Morosi described the situation. It’s possible to imagine that negotiations may have not have gotten far at all, given how Morosi reports that the Indians’ first ask was top Angels prospect Jo Adell as well as another player.
Adell is a consensus top-five prospect in baseball, ranked #2 in the sport by both Baseball Prospectus and Baseball America, #3 by Fangraphs, and #5 by MLB Pipeline. This impressive set of ratings comes despite an abbreviated 2019 season for Adell, who was waylaid by ankle and hamstring injuries and limited to just 341 PA over 76 total games at three different minor league levels. Only 27 of those games came with the Triple-A Salt Lake Bees, and since Adell had only a .676 OPS over 132 PA for the Bees, the Angels could opt to give him a bit more seasoning time at Triple-A before summoning him to the big leagues (and of course, the team would gain an extra year of control over Adell by keeping him in the minors for at least a few weeks).
Still, Adell is expected to make his MLB debut in 2020 and could be counted on as an everyday player by season’s end. It has been widely speculated that the Halos will use 2019 breakout star Brian Goodwin in right field until Adell is ready for a promotion, and then Adell and Goodwin will, at worst, split duties for the remainder of the year. Should Adell make an immediate impact (or even if Goodwin matches his strong production from last season), the Angels promise to boast one of the league’s stronger outfields, assuming Justin Upton returns to good health and Mike Trout continues his Cooperstown-level domination of the sport.
With so much expected of Adell so soon, it isn’t surprising that the Angels balked at moving him in any trade demand, even for a pitcher like Clevinger. The 29-year-old righty has a 2.96 ERA, 3.13 K/BB rate, and 10.3 K/9 over 500 2/3 innings since the start of the 2017 season. Clevinger is controlled through the 2022 season and is projected to earn $4.5MM in his first year of arbitration eligibility; his initial arb salary would surely have been much higher were it not for a teres major muscle injury that cost him around two months of action last year.
Between Clevinger’s cost-controlled price tag and strong results on the mound, Cleveland has seemingly no immediate reason to move him for anything less than a huge return. The payroll-conscious Tribe has already moved Corey Kluber to the Rangers this offseason and might yet still trade Francisco Lindor, though those players are much more expensive and offer less years of control than Clevinger. In fact, despite Kluber’s salary and injury-plagued 2019, it’s fair to wonder whether the Indians would have moved the former Cy Young Award winner had it not been for the team’s comfort level in Clevinger as the new ace of their staff, not to mention the development of young arms Shane Bieber, Zach Plesac, and Aaron Civale.
The Padres and Dodgers have also had interest in Clevinger this offseason, and it’s probably safe to guess that any club in need of pitching has at least checked in with the Tribe to see if a deal could be found for Clevinger or perhaps any member of the impressive Cleveland rotation. The Angels have added Dylan Bundy and Julio Teheran to their starting five this offseason and will be getting Shohei Ohtani back from Tommy John surgery, though Anaheim still lags behind many contending teams in terms of both depth and frontline arms. Clevinger was actually picked by the Angels in the fourth round of the 2011 draft, but was sent to Cleveland in an August 2014 trade for reliever Vinnie Pestano.
Clev for a truckload of Pesto.
That’s what they would want from the Rangers.
great starting pitcher for a right fielder you know nothing about, no brainer
We know nothing about Adell? Most people do. Ignorance is not the bases of a good trade.
A top 5 prospect who may or may not produce at that same level of production upon making the Majors, for a top ten value major league starter, with 3 years of control, during your window of opportunity.. I don’t care what you think you know about the prospect, you don’t hesitate if you think you need pitching to win.
A number two prospect. Not top five. In order to trade a #2 prospect, with that kind of make up, you need someone back who is pristine.
Clevinger is not pristine. 1) Back. 2) Innings. 3) FIP.
That’s no knock on Clevinger, but those are three questions marks going into 2020. You don’t trade the #2 prospect for those kinds of question marks. You need more of a sure thing.
Looks like MLB.com disagrees with you on Adell being the #2 prospect. Weird argument to start in the first place. But hey, let’s try to keep it factual next time, MAC!
Vinnie Pestano is available
Vandals Took The Handles
Anyone that will get Jon Paul Morosi clicks is available.
He’s almost never right.
Morosi is a click bait specialist..
The reference is that Clevinger was originally an Angel and Dipoto traded Vinnie Pestano for Clevinger. Pestanos Halo career was obviously short lived and now Clevinger is quite the pitching asset.
wait, they asked for Adell? lmao Angels would be crazy to do that.
i like al conin
That’s the price for 3 years of an ace. Considering the Angels farm system it seems like a waste of time to even ask Cleveland if there’s no intention to include Adell.
Yeah for real , it’s mentally insane o the other side of the phone for the angels to even have the gumption to make trade offers with nothing to offer back
After seeing the Kluber deal they probably thought it was worth a shot.
Kluber made a lot, was bad last year, and expendable with the cheaper Clev.
Clev requires like 2 Adells to match his surplus value against contract for next 3 season at arb. Adell wasnt even that good this season, and is worth like half the 120M surplus that Clev produces this year. It would be Adell marsh and a couple other pieces before CLE even answers there call. Look at what players like Sale returned in trade and thats in the ballpark of what CLE wants.
Really? Nothing to offer back? Brandon Marsh isnt nothing, Jamai Jones isnt nothing, Luis Rengifo isnt nothing do i dare go on? Gave up Kluber for lesser prospects
None of them are currently in MLB Pipeline’s top 100 prospect so why do you think that they are good enough to get 3 years of control of a proven stud pitcher like Clevinger.
MLB is the worst site for prospect rankings. Wait until BP, BA come out. Fangraph’s has Marsh at 74.
Comparing a Player with an 18MM salary who is recovering from injury to Clevinger is a bit of a stretch, dont ya think. It will be a Shame if Kluber comes back that the Angels didnt beat the Texas offer. Oh, thats right. Kluber is owed big dollars and was injured all last year. Guess that might be why the Angels didnt offer more..
$120 million surplus value for Clevinger next year ChapmansVacuum? Yes, he will be making $4.5 mil, which is nothing. But considering 1-WAR=$8million, I guess you are expecting Clevinger to have a 15.5 WAR season next year? Hasn’t that only been accomplished once in the history of the game?
Clevinger is a 4-6 WAR pitcher when he is on. He has 3 years of control. Since Adell has 6 years of control, he will only have to average 2-3 WAR per year to make him worth as much as Clevinger. He is very likely to provide as much or more total value over the remaining life of their contracts than Clevinger. Let’s not get crazy stupid with the numbers ChapmansVacuum.
@hockeyjohn The only one that I have seen release a 2020 prospect list is CBS. They have Marsh listed at 36. He is a 5 tool player like Adell. Once other publications release a 2020 top 100 list, Marsh will be there as well. He had a great year and showed all the tool, you would be mistaken to think he is not a top 100 prospect.
Think what you want. He is not going to get you Clevinger,
@hockeyjohn It wouldn’t surprise me if the Indians would turn down a package including Brandon Walsh for Clevinger, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the Indians ended up with someone worse than Brandon Walsh for Clevinger.
MrAngelFan, The Indians will end up with Mike Clevinger and I am fine with that. The Indians have no reason to trade him.
Perhaps not and there is no reason to rush a trade for him.
Hes a stud at 22, only gonna get better. Somebody who falls out of contention early will seek a rebuild and want him for part of it.
I mean, he has ace stuff, but he’s thrown 200 innings once
Shocked nobody’s bringing that up. If Clevinger routinely threw 200 IP? Yeah, of course, deal Adell.
So you don’t think Clevinger is proven enough to be an ace, but the guy with an OPS of .less than .700 in AAA is on track to be a superstar? Strange logic, but whatever works I guess.
The guy with the less than .700 OPS in 27 games at AAA after a ,944 performance in AA and at the ripe ol’ age of 20 (otherwise known as 6+ years younger than average AAA age)? Yeah he might have a shot.
I never said Adell was going to be a star, only that Clevinger has ace stuff but can’t stay healthy.
If he threw 200IP with his stat line LAA wouldnt have enough prospects to get him at like 30:1 there whole system is worth 168M future value according to the FG mid season update. He has like 35M in surplus just next season which is half Adells trade value. If he improves much at all he is worth about 65%+ of the Angels full farm value.
Also if he had thrown 200IP last season with his stats he would have hit like 6-7 WAR and be projected for like 50M in surplus value next season which is just 12M shy of Adell is worth in trade. For an ace you want at least 2 good prospects so when one of them busts you get one that doesnt. Teams dont 1 for 1 good trade MLB players for prospects ever. It would be laughable to try and make a deal without Adell like as many as CLE wants of the other 29. That system is the worst in MLB the day Adell graduates.
No one with a clue judges a 20 year old player based on 27 games in AAA.
He missed half a season due to back issues. He’s pitched over 130 innings once. I don’t think anyone would trade three years of Clevenger for 7 years of Adell. It’s too much of a gamble trading that kind of prospect.
Just like no one with a clue thinks the Angels could get Clev without including him. STOP OVERVALUING PROSPECTS.
Amen… it’s almost becoming crazy… people talking about top prospects like a large percentage of them actually deliver as advertised… they generally don’t… and we’re talking about Clevingers injury issues but not Adell’s? And the fact the angels need SP badly… the way people talk about unproven prospects it’s a wonder any trades in MLB happen at all
The Angels don’t need pitching bad. They just need their pitchers to stay healthy. Over paying for pitchers and trading high end prospects for pitching doesn’t guarantee wins. Let’s not forget, Cole didn’t win a WS in Houston. And contrary to popular belief, offense wins games. The Nationals just proved that.
Hector, What are you talking about? What’s with the non-squitur?
Cleveland would take Adell in a heartbeat for Clevinger, and the Angels wouldn’t do it.
As far as overrating Adell, that’s laughable. He’s the second best prospect in baseball, and his makeup is off the charts. He’s rated exactly where he should be.
MA4170 Back vs freak injury. Huge difference.
As far as prospects, yes #2 prospects hit a very large percentage of the time.
johndietz – I agree a good offense is necessary, but a solid pitching staff is a must to shut down the opponent. And the Nats won with a combo of both. Strasburg and Scherzer, et al? They have a great rotation.
He could be the next Swihart.
Swihart never got above 17 in the prospect Rankings. Even Posey never got above #7.
Adell is #2.
MLB #2 prospects
2004 BJ upton
2005 Ian Stewart
2006 Jeremy hermida
2007 Alex Gordon
2013 Dylan Bundy
I’ll stop there for argument’s sake… only 3 of the 10 (strasburg Harper and Longoria) on par w Clevinger so far though he has to stay healthy and keep it going (era+ of 147 143 174 since joining rotation full time).
maybe a higher percentage of top 3 prospects make it, sure, but not as high as people think
Chief Wahoo Lives
If the Indians would trade Clevinger for Adell it would only be because the Dolan’s are too cheap to pay even Clevinger’s low salary.
Otherwise the Indians would be morons to trade Clevinger for only Adell. Clevinger is a potential Cy Young winner over the next several seasons. A top 10 pitcher almost for certain. Adell is a guy who still hasn’t made it to the Majors. People are constantly overrating prospects. That’s why they’re called prospects, they haven’t proven anything at the major league level.
If the Indians are smart, they will require more than just Adell.
I’ll be very angry if the Indians trade Clevinger at all at this time.
We can absolutely respectfully disagree. I’ll take seven years of Adell over three years of Clevinger. Had he not missed three months with a bad back last year, I may have felt differently. The last three months of the season he was sensational.
Clevinger can easily pitch 200 innings and have another great year, but there red flags that can’t be ignored when trading the #2 prospect.
They are not huge flags, but they also can’t be ignored. When a team trades a #2 prospect, the player they acquire should be darn close to pristine.
Chief – “Adell is a guy who still hasn’t made it to the Majors.”
The way you worded that, you make it sound like Adell has struggled to make a major league roster, which is misleading. The guy is 20 years old (21 on April 8) and has quickly worked his way up through the minors and is now poised to make the big club early in 2020. He hasn’t had any set backs in his development, smoked the fall league and by all reports is a special talent.
Chief Wahoo Lives
Sorry. It was not my intention to suggest that Adell has had difficulty making it to the majors. Just that since he has not yet played in the majors that we don’t know for sure how he will do once he does make it to the majors.
Chief – After reading it again, I see how it can be taken two ways. No worries. I’d like them to put a deal together! We have position player depth. We need the pitching.
The smart money says yes
He’s not an ace though.
the “truth” is correct. Hes not an Ace but Clevenger is a frontline stater with nasty stuff. you can go get you right fielder pretty easily
In the past 2 seasons, he ranks in the top 10 of ERA, FIP, K/9, and HR/9. I’d consider that an ace.
He only threw 120 innings last year. Sometimes your best ability is availability. Not saying he doesn’t have ace stuff, but you have to be more dependable.
But Adell only played 76 games, so by your availability argument, it’s still a fair deal.
No but pitchers only 30 games tops when Adel will eventually be an everyday player
Adell playing 76 games didn’t impact his time clock or the major league roster. Clevinger also time off does. Adell is also 9 years younger than Clevinger.
Tops is typically 32-33 (I assume you’re referring to starters only as relief pitchers often appear in far more games than that). It seems a huge gap. But if you think about the number of significant events/plays a pitcher is involved in in each start vs. that number for each of an everyday player’s starts
-Each pitch he throws
-The outcome of each PA in which he pitched
-Conduct as a baserunner (NL/Interleague)
-Conduct as a baserunner
On a per-game basis, a pitcher’s contribution to wins/losses is astronomically larger. With the benefit of more games in which to play, the position player’s contribution becomes more apparent as the season progresses. Added up over an entire season, the gap between the two positions as far as contribution/effect tends to close to near-touching.
Would you pitch him in game 5 or 7 in the playoffs? I would so I dont know how you get any aceier then a sub 3 era over 2 seasons with killer peripherals.
hitflew, seven years of Adell vs three years of Clevinger.
I think most teams would take Adell. especially when one of those guys missed 3 months with a back issue.
Chapman, Clevinger doesn’t have killer peripherals. His FIP for 2016-2018 was 3.82.
That’s part of the problem. Bad Back is part of the problem. Only once with over 130 is part of the problem.
If you are going to trade the #2 prospect in baseball, you need something back in return with less problems than Clevinger.
So then who would you rather have to start a franchise Cole or Trout because to me it’s obvious with Trout.
Any every day player.
Spend money on offensive players. Pitching DOES NOT win championships!! The Tigers had a rotation of Verlander, Scherzer, Porcello, Price and didn’t win
johndietz – that’s a misleading conclusion. You need both offense and pitching to win, but I believe a team has a slim chance of success without good pitching. There are a lot of teams with good rotations that don’t win the WS because only one team can win. So to say pitching isn’t necessary to win because you list teams with good rotations that didn’t win is misleading. The Nationals had a great rotation last year with the offense to match.
@johndietz That is faulty logic. The Angels had the best players from the 200s decade and the best player from the 2010s decade together for the entire past 10 years and they combined to win ZERO playoff games.
Winning a championship is all about being lucky/hot during the right three week period. But you can’t ever get lucky/hot if you don’t make the playoffs. Pitching will get you there for the 6 month season. Offense only will lose you a bunch of 9-7 games. I say this as a Rockies fan that has seen 13 different players win the batting title in Rockies history, but only 5 playoff appearances. Pitching wins titles.
hiflew – you said it better than I did. thanks!
No, it’s not the price of three years of an ace… and I’m not an Indians fan. No team in the league is trading Adell for Clevinger, and I also think Clevinger is a Cy Young contender. That’s not a price anyone would pay. Whether its even or not, whatever, but you rarely see teams doing things like that. Yeah the Cubs and Eloy, but that’s about it.
Moncada and Kopech for Sale
Sale was a tick above Clevinger
Clevinger is a tick above Quintana
Not the point
That is the price of 3 years of an ace, Ben. You rarely see that because teams rarely trade 3 years of a freaking ace. Most teams that have an ace are very good teams.
Adell is the only thing on the Angels that would be worthy of getting an Ace like Clevinger. If this was a system like San Diego’s, perhaps you could get creative with a bunch of other quality prospects but it’s certainly not going to happen with the Angels.
Shelby Miller to Diamondbacks
James Paxton to Yankees
Angles don’t want to win. How many times a top #1 prospect is a corner outfielder? Reminds me of Dom Brown. Don’t buy all they hype of a prospect trade him get you a #1 pitcher. Clevinger had era+ over 140 17-18 and last year 170, though shortened.
Eloy was part of a package to get a far inferior pitcher to Clev, and it included other good players, and that was before pitching rocketed in price. Dylan Cease was a better 2nd piece then the LAA poses, and Quintana was a way worse pitcher then Clev with terrible peripherals. Look at what it took 3 years ago to get Quintana then say A + M + 2 or three other real prospects from the 18th ranked system in MLB is an overpay. Frontline pitchers net more then 1 top 100.
I agree that Clev should absolutely net a top prospect, maybe a Top 25 in the game, but I also think that the Cubs trade is why teams should be weary of such a trade. That was an awful trade that sets a precedent for teams that they should NOT shell the farm for a marginal arm. While Clev isn’t marginal, I just don’t see a team dumping the farm for him the way the Cubs did for the far inferior Quintana.
Prices have changed. Nobody is doing boatloads of premium prospects for players with limited control anymore. It hasn’t happened for Betts, Lindor, Bryant, Merrifield, Syndergaard or Clevinger. It won’t happen. Last year the Padres traded a 35-40 HR hitter, a top 100 prospect and another prospect for 1- top 35 prospect on the downslope.
If you want to hold your breath waiting for a top 5 prospect and multiple other top 100s, feel free. I will not be attending you funeral when you suffocate.
@I like at conin Clevinger isn’t an ace. Kluber was an ace. They gave up Kluber for nothing. DeShields and Clase, a one inning guy. The most you can expect from either one of those guys 1.5 WAR. I know Kluber has more questions because of performance and injury from last year, but he was an ace. Clevinger no doubt has the stuff to be an ace but has yet to prove he is durable enough.
I would love to have Clevinger, but I doubt they would even consider trading him until they trade Lindor. If they don’t trade Lindor, they probably do not trade Clevinger. The Indians do not seem fully committed to rebuilding yet and may still view themselves as contenders in the AL Central.
You’d have to be living in the past to think Kluber is the ace and Clevinger isn’t. Moving forward Clevinger is certainly the ace out of that pair.
Clase is the piece Cleveland got back. I’m not singling you out but this is a problem with guys on the comment section. They don’t consider the prospect if he’s not a top 100 guy.
They got a reliever who generates a ton of ground balls and throws 100 MPH. Amongst other positives. (Fangraphs has a good article on him if you care to look. ) That’s somehow a pretty garbage return because he isn’t on a top 100 list. Reliever WAR is garbage also. But that’s another thing.
If Cleveland was able to identify another Kenley Jansen, Felipe Rivero type reliever, they’ll be perfectly fine with the trade they made. Relievers are rarely “top 100 prospects” I realize if a prospect doesn’t make that list it’s hard for many people to see value; but it’s certainly there.
That’s not to say the Indians aren’t taking a huge gamble in that trade. Because they certainly are. It was a former ace who was traded for pretty much 1 prospect. (We know what Delino Deshields is and he’s honestly pretty redundant in Cleveland) But I don’t understand how half the people here have it an “F” automatically. Kluber is something of a wild card who was set to make 17.5 million bucks—coming back from an injury. Clase has 6 years of control and potential closer stuff. We’ll see how it turns out.
@jbigz12 Best case scenario, Clase will have a ceiling of 2 WAR. Most likely it will be far less. One inning guys are a a dime a dozen. You may believe that guys like Clase are hard to find, but the reality is they are not. You only need one or 2 pitches to be a one inning guy. They do not add much above a replacement level player. It is just common sense. Position players and starters are far more valuable than Clase or any reliever will ever be. Most people understand this but I guess some don’t
WAR WAR WAR
Don’t talk to me about common sense when you’re telling me a reliever isn’t that valuable because he posts at most 2 WAR.
I assume if Kluber would’ve been dealt for Brandon Marsh—that would’ve been fine to most people. Because Brandon Marsh has made the vaunted “top 100 list” Meanwhile he might be as good as Avisail Garcia… or not. BUT Clase is a garbage return because he isn’t a top 100 guy. Although he has elite stuff. A guy who could turn into an elite back end arm has much more value than you give credit. But that’s fine if you want to be dismissive of that. We’ll just how things continue to turn out.
A little critical thinking is all I’m asking. Do you really think Cleveland would be upset with a guy who turned out like Felipe Rivero, Osuna (minus the DV x2) or Kenley Jansen? Clase may not end up being that; but the upside is there.
So if it was up to you MrAngelFan, you wouldn’t trade the current, past-his-prime Kluber for ANY reliever? Not even a young Mariano Rivera? Rivera had 1 pitch-a cutter. Maybe a 95-96 mph cutter at his best. What does Clase have? A cutter. A 100mph cutter. Tell me, how many other pitchers have had one of those? I know the answer-none. Ever. It might just be worth taking a chance on.
@Javia How certain are you that Kluber is past his prime? Just because he was bad last year? He won 20 games just 2 years ago. Did he turn 33 and turn rotten? So pitchers do, but I need more of a sample size before I would put a fork in him. I hope you are right and Kluber is done since he is in our division now.
Clase has 1 save, so can we hold off on the Mariano Rivera comparisons for now. My point is that you can find relievers that can close games easier than you can find a Cy Young winner. Case in point, Cody Allen stunk it up for us last year so we discovered Hansel Robles.
We will need to see how it plays out next year. Maybe it will be as you suggest. Maybe Kluber will be done and Clase will be better than Mariano Rivera. Heck, DeShields may become Willie Mays. Who knows?
I do believe war doesn’t fully represent an elite closer. Just like war is a complete joke for rating defensive ability. But an elite closer is most valuable to a playoff team that can use him pretty much every game.
The Rangers and Angels and maybe even the Indians currently aren’t that.
I think everyone’s argument here is every year At few of last years elite closers stink it up the next year.
Also Marino Rivera was the greatest closer ever. No one is that, so we shouldn’t go to that level.
@SryphilZ27 I agree with you on the dWar and other defensive metrics.
In my opinion, people tend to overvalue closers. This is why teams tend to overpay for saves. A closer can come in a 9th inning up 3 runs and get a save. For him to close that game, he just needs to allow less than 3 runs. A game can be more stressful in the 7th or 8th inning.
You don’t need an elite closer to be a playoff team. Most people would not consider Sean Doolittle an elite closer, but he is good enough to win the World Series.
Just because you dont think they got enough for one pitcher doesnt mean they will trade you a more valuable one for peanuts. When Kluber trade also gave them salary relief without making them much worse if at all.
@ChapmansVacuum I agree with you. Clevinger is worth more than Kluber. Everyone sees Clevinger potential. I just do not put it in an ace category just yet. He has played on some good Indians teams and has yet to win more than 13 games in a season.. There is still some uncertainty with Clevinger. The Angels have added some stability at the back end of the rotation, but now need someone with a high upside like Clevinger. As I mentioned, before, I do not believe the Indians want to sell at the moment. We will need to wait to see what happens with Lindor. If they do there will be a lot of competition for Clevinger and there are a lot of teams with more prospect value than the Angels. Clevinger would be a great fit, but not a likely fit in all honesty.
“He has played on some good Indians teams and has yet to win more than 13 games in a season..”
Jacob deGrom just won back to back Cy Youngs with win totals of 10 and 11, respectively. Column we’ve all I guess collectively accepted isn’t going away but tells you so little about a pitcher.
@OntariGro I knew someone was going to bring up deGrom that is why I prefaced it with saying played on some good teams and never won more than 13 games. I couldn’t think of many starters like deGrom or Felix Hernandez that won the Cy Young with few wins, but clearly they both won more than 13 games at some point.
Starting pitchers are risky enough, but relief pitchers are probably the most volatile of any single position and any prospect or trade should reflect this. WAR isn’t perfect but below is the top 5 RP by fWAR for 2017, 2018 and 2019. A good starter is obviously more valuable than a RP that might give you 60 good IP in any single season with a chance he doesn’t repeat it.
Top 5 RP by fWAR
Clevinger isn’t even worth Adell straight up.
Fangraphs has Adell worth 62M in the update. Projections have Clev worth about 40M in surplus next year alone. Lay off the young player crack pipe you know how many top prospects that never performed above AA have flopped. Jesus Montero was the top prospect in MLB before he got dealt on a bunch of rankings, and had performed in the MLB in a small sample size. Prospects fail all the time nobodies 1:1 a valuable 4WAR MLB pitcher for a guy in AA that might be good in the show someday.
GTFOH this is why proven MLB players cost a package. Just like Adell Clev has upside too, if he pitches the 200IP he did the year before with the same skill of last year he is a near 8WAR pitcher and at the tippy top of the MLB SP rankings. How much WAR can we pencil Adell in for next season 4.5-8? Didnt think so.
There aren’t many prospects that three years of a controllable ace isn’t worth. And if you don’t think he’s an ace you don’t know much about the sport. Maybe slide over a column or two on the app and pick a different sport.
He’s not an ace. One, he has a back issue. Two, he’s pitched over 130 innings once. His lifetime FIP prior to last year is 3.82.
The Angels are not going to trade Adell for him and the Indians are not going to take anyone but Adell.
Why would you give a lifetime FIP for a guy who is breaking out? He has 4 seasons of big league work if you exclude an entire season; you’re severely skewing the results. He got injured last year, big deal. It’s not like he has an injury issue. He’s absolutely a budding ace. The same age that Scherzer busted out. His last 330 innings; he has a sub 3 FIP and averages over 10K/9.
jbig, Because it’s just another question.
If you are trading seven years of the #2 prospect in baseball for three years of Clevinger, you need fewer questions marks.
And if think a back injury is nothing, then we have a huge disagreement.
Three questions marks are at least two too many. I think the back is too many.
Clevinger is more of an ace than Ohtani.
Of course Clevinger is more of an ace, but if Clevinger were Ohtani, I’d think the Angels would do the deal.
And if the Angels make the wild card, then I would wager, Ohtani is more of an ace than Clevinger. The Angels are not going to make the playoffs unless Ohtani pitches like an ace over his 22 starts. Which amazingly, Clevinger has more than 21 starts… once.
nick effing punto
You are lyao?? Why? Adell is a prospect. Clevinger is a bonafide ace. For 3 cost effective years it should take the farm from any team. Cleveland holds the cards. The Angels staff is bottom 5 in the AL. Perhaps Trout could pitch this year.
Bonafide Ace that hasnt pitched 200 innings in a season at age 29! Lol
He pitched 200.0 innings in 2018 (+5.o playoff innings).
He literally did in 2018 and only didn’t again last season because injury. Do you know who you’re talking about?
That’s 2/3 seasons of not pitching more than 125 innings. Ace worthy? Yikes.
Pitched 200 ip in 2018 literally on the dot 200IP. NOOB! He also was putting up appropriate 150ish IP in the seasons before his callup. 155-2017 200-2018 133-2019. He was also worse when he first got up and got less deep in games, so being a better pitcher helps increase the innings.
Or they can make a trade for Charlie Morton with Marsh
Why would the Rays do that? They need what Morton brings them and are fine without Marsh. Literally zero incentive for the top ranked farm system to deal a valuable starter off the MLB squad for a non top 100 prospect that they already have like 7 of.
if its that simple youd see a lot more prospects changing hands for short stretches of players, but in reality teams value prospects more than most tend to.
Prospects get gm’s fired.
Hey remember when the Tigers would be crazy to trade Cameron Maybin and Andrew Miller for proven MLB talent like Miguel Cabrera?
Proven MLB talent is getting stupid level underdemeciated in today’s market. Adel might not ever do anything and even if he does, Clevinger will most certainly end up being more valuable as a 2-3 level rotation guy.
Hey remember when everybody used trades/trade proposals that, other than being from the same sport, have almost nothing to do with one another in a failed attempt to prove some nebulous point, and accidentally proving another: hindsight is 20/20, but if you don’t understand what you’re looking at who cares?
Nope similar. Adel hasn’t done anything in the bigs but he launched through the lower minors, just like Maybin. The Angels need pitching and they have proven they can’t develop their own guys or keep them healthy. Clevinger for Adel equal no brainer.
Clevinger isnt Miggy and Adell really isnt the same player that Maybin is/was. i don’t think thay trade is a reasonable comparison.
He’s not making the comparison. He’s saying that you know what you’re getting with a player who has a track record and is still young. I’m a Mets fan. Do you know how many Adell’s we have had that we’re trash?
and the White Sox traded Tatis and traded Q for multiple great prospects. this argument goes two ways.
Two teams here that seem to be a bad match. I wouldn’t trade Adell, either. Not even for Clevinger. On the flip side, if I’m Cleveland, I don’t know what else you ask for to get fair value back.
im not sure as well, but im assuming it includes the likes of Marsh, Goodwin, Sandoval and or Suarez, and perhaps a La Stella for them to try and re-trade and perhaps a Bundy as well for them to fill in Clev’s spot with and provide potential deadline value if he’s a surpluss piece and they are still going for it. id imagine it takes most of these pieces and probably one of their more recent draft picks, cash, and bonus slots to do it.
Dark side, Cleveland would say no. There is nothing in that list of players that would provide any motivation for the Indians to trade Clevinger.
The indians would be crazy to do that, the list of top prospects who fizzle out runs deep
Eppler can find a right fielder anywhere with decent numbers and wont cost much
Do it, Angels. Throw in Trout too.
So the big story right now is teams can not agree on players in trades. 🙂
This is a rumors site dude…
James1955 What do you expect? It’s the dead boring part of the offseason. They have to post articles about something and they probably won’t get much to work with until ST.
i’m hopping on the Angels bandwagon if they can somehow manage to pull this one off
I’ll pull it in front of your house if this happens.
Adell + Marsh + more and its a done deal, anything less then those two plus more is a non starter. They have a terrible farm for dealing for a pitcher where the only prospect that gets you a decent arm is the one they wont deal. I mean its not the 30th by a mile anymore but its still trash with near half its total value in one player.
The Indians are justified to ask for Adell and Marsh for Clevinger. Then it becomes a simple decision – part with two prospects, as highly ranked as they are, for a top-rotation starter, or keep the prospects and go into 2020 still in need of a top pitcher for their rotation. Personally, I believe the Angels will hold onto the two prospects and then try to find a bargain-basement cost pitcher that will take them nowhere.
Clevinger and Bieber for Adell, Marsh, Canning and Soriano.
Who says no?
Bkbk, I hope that you use a designated driver. You are drunk if you think that is a good offer.
Yet, the Rangers will get him for Willie Calhoun and some AA relief prospect we’ve all never heard of…
If the Angels feel they’re an ace away from playoff contention which on paper they are, I’d tell the Indians they can have their pick of any 3-4 of their top 10 prospects but Adell is untouchable. See if the Indians will bite.
If I was a fly on the wall, that is probably what I would have heard from Eppler’s office.
i like al conin
Seems like other teams with better systems would have a better offer.
3 years of an ace….here, take left overs
Indians will quickly say no. They are not trading Clevinger.
No deal, never happening, you will not get Clev for a package with no top 100 prospects. Your talking a player projected for 5 WAR at 4M CLE front office would have to go on a crazy binge smoking crack for a week to make that deal
Quintana was worse and netted multiple top 100s for 1 extra year at more money per season.
Yeah, wishful thinking for LAA fans out there. I think the trade needs to feature Adell. Possibly Adell and Marsh +
They’d get hung up on. The Angels farm system is trash.
The Angels farm system is far from trash. It’s also far from elite.
Why is there no middle ground to some people?
If Clevinger moves elsewhere, and he does not end up a Brave, then the Braves have officially lost the offseason.
Your username called..said they already lost.
They did, but it can be reverted. The whole point is they need pitching more so than the umbrella. Hamels is not much better than DK. Add Clev with Soroka, and you have a competitive rotation. Right now, it is terrible.
Bumgarner isnt much better than DK. =)
Your opinion is irrelevant. The point is they need 2 starters, whether its Hamels and Bum, or any other combination. I’m okay with Hamels, but him alone does not improve the rotation from last season.
I can finally stop counting the days for Teheran to be gone. Now I’m starting a new one for Faulty.
The fact you think Bumgarner is some type of ace in 2020 says enough. Atlanta‘s rotation is nowhere near terrible and if you had a basic understanding of statistics, you‘d know that. Clevinger isn’t an ace and even if he was, he’s not necessary. Atlanta improved the bullpen and solidified the rotation.
Your opinion is laughable to everyone educated on here. Do yourself a favor and join us in 2020 by learning about WAR, FIP, xFIP and go on Fangraphs and look at Steamer projections, because right now you’re embarrassing yourself.
Dude relax. Sorry to insult your precious Braves but their rotation is not solid and nobody will be heading to Atlanta afraid to face their arms.
Googling your statistics means absolutely nothing other than pretending you understand what all these arbitrary numbers mean. Anybody can take them and use them as their argument but have no idea what they mean.
My proof? The results on the field. Their rotation is middling and not potent enough to get past a division title, if even.
Besides why you even arguing Clev? You must be completely delusional if you don’t want him.
He may no longer be the dominant ace he once was, but he is a good #2 or 3 and there’s nothing wrong with that.
I don’t think anyone mind’s you insulting the Braves – I’ll agree their rotation needs some work – it’s the same insults in almost every post (even when the posts have NOTHING to do with ATL — like this one) that your comments appear like ramblings with no insight or data to back it up, only jaded opinion.
There’s still time before the beginning of the season and ATL still has their prospects. Considering they’ve gotten done a lot of their offseason needs filled through free agency – now it’s time for trade season.
Braves aren’t even mentioned with him. Don’t think it’s gonna happen
Very stupid comment. Bumgarner isn’t an ace and neither is Clevinger. Either way, Atlanta improves the bullpen and solidified the rotation. It was a good offseason and it isn’t even over yet.
Anybody ever win a 0-0 game? No. The Braves need Donaldson more than a SP, unless you’d like to watch Kakes batting clean up. The rotation is fine. Not elite, but plenty good enough.
Doesn’t Adell look a bit over-hyped? .238 hitter in AA; .264 in AAA with 0 HRs and 8 rbis in 121 ABs in the hitter-friendly PCL I don’t see what looks “ready” with this guy.
Not much but he did have a 2 homer game but it got rained out so it didn’t count
He looked real good in spring training last year until he got hurt on the base paths.
Saw him at Rancho Cucamonga when he came there to play. The ball jumped off his bat, and for distance.
He hit over .300 in AA last year being one of the youngest players.
@kemajic clearly you are braindead or a troll… adell hit .308 with 8 homeruns in 40 games before being promoted to hit .267 in triple a at age 20…trying again homer.
He hit .238 in AA back in 2018 in 71 whole at bats. That is what is called a small sample size and does not mean anything
@Kemajic—Read the article. Adell was tremendous in Spring Training last year, but injured the knee on one leg and the hamstring on the other in a slip on the basepaths. He missed most of the year, and his brief time in SLC was shaking the rust off.
Better to look at the performance in the Arizona Fall League, or the leading performance with the US Olympic Team which followed that.
He figures to open the season in AAA to get more exposure to pro-level pitching and continue to refine his OF game, but he will be on the big team before ASG. There is no overhyping here, which is why every team has asked for him for the past couple of years.
Mike Trout Age 19, AA, 91 games, 11HRs, .326AVG, 33 SB, 10 CS
Jo Adell Age 20, AA, 43 games, 8 HRs, ..308AVG, 6 SB, 0 CS
I am not going to call him the next Mike Trout, but the numbers are comparable at the same stage. Trout is a rare specimen that looks for a way to improve his game every year. Not only does he aim to improve an aspect of his game, but he does year in and year out. I have never seen a player like Trout before. We will need to see how Adell is and his work ethic when he finally makes it. Not everyone translates minor league success to major league success.
That’s offensive honestly , The angels need to cut it out asking for real major league talent in trades when they literally have nothing to offer but some players they aren’t willing to part with
Again this royals dude must really be salty that his team is at the bottom of the league with no way out. 15th ranked farm and there top 3 are really good. Marsh has a chance to be better adell.
This Dodgers dude must really be salty knowing that the Royals actually won the World Series.
Yeh fr , just because the Angels have like 3 good prospects doesn’t mean they automatically line up for a Clevinger trade ,thats not how it works, especially when other teams have more to offer .
How many rings do royals have in the last 60 years? Lol this dude talks smack when he is team is a cellar dweller yearly.
1 top 100 in the whole farm. They have the 4th or 5th worst system in there own division, and the worst in baseball the day Adell graduates!
I mean I don’t really care dude , I’m not comapring the Royals winning record to any other team because I’m not a D!ck rider nor a player, I’m just here to bash the Angels winning aspirations
And at least my team has affordable tickets , decent talent and doesn’t have an ace that breaks down in the playoffs consistently and has a WS last decade and the fans don’t leave in the the seventh inning
If the Indians can’t get Adell they should say never mind they’ll find someone like him.
I see what you did there. Nice!
@chicagofan1978 If Clevinger didnt have an injury past, a package including Adell would worth considering. I don’t believe the Indians will end up with a top 10 prospect for Clevinger, but they can end up with multiple top 100 prospects. . Unfortunately, the Angels do not this to offer.
With Clevinger’s past durability, no way.
please dont give up Adell or Marsh… both are looking like future stars. I know it would be nearly impossible to get Clevinger without either of those 2 tho..
Nearly? I think its worse then that like hell freezing over maybe.
I’d be fine giving up Marsh and more. Adell and Clevinger would be part of a 2020-2022 playoff push, Marsh has yet to hit AAA.
I’m sure Angels fans would be ecstatic to get an ace for Brandon Marsh. The Indians won’t be.i have to imagine It is Adell or no deal. Unless the Indians do something crazy and ask for David Fletcher, Marsh+ but with Cesar Hernandez being signed; I can’t imagine that’s what they have in mind—And they shouldn’t
Marsh and more. Probably an mlb ready piece like Rengifo or Goodwin plus another quality prospect, perhaps Sandoval.
Marsh is a start. Not a one for one.
Marcus Stroman went for more than that. That’s a non starter for a guy like Clevinger. If the Angels aren’t including Adell—I don’t see it happening. That system isn’t good enough. Just being realistic here. The price of pitching is high. If all it cost was a Brandon Marsh and Rengifo type of players— everyone would be calling.
He did not
Stroman didn’t go for more than Luis Rengifo and Brandon Marsh? Because I’m fairly confident SRW and Anthony Kay are an equivalent package
I think the Angels should offer Marsh, Canning, and Sandoval. I like Marsh and Canning a lot but need to give up something to get something.
Mr. – I could see Marsh, Sandoval, and Barria, but I think Canning will be a strong piece for the future. He stepped up out of necessity and did a solid job.
Spare Tire Dixon
I’m surprised the Dodgers have not swung this deal yet. They seem like just the team that would want another SP like Clevinger.
Spare Tire Dixon
Dodgers can spare Seager, Verdugo, and another prospect in a Clevinger deal. With Gavin Lux, Chris Taylor, and Enrique Hernandez, they have IF to fill SS.
Lol. No one cares who the Dodgers can spare. Cleveland wants Lux for Clevinger and if they change their mind, they’ll want May and/or Ruiz.
There may be some chance they can get May and Ruiz. If that’s it, or if there’s another Indian that adds value to the trade. This isn’t way out there. This may be the middle ground.
More reasonably, Verdugo and Ruiz. Dodgers may do this.
The Dodgers would be stupid not to take Verdugo and Ruiz for Clevinger. Outfielders aren’t that special. And Will Smith locked down the catcher of the future spot.
Now those are packages where your actually starting the conversation.
Spare Tire Dixon
Thanks, LA GM
The Dodgers are not trading Seager, end of story.
Spare Tire Dixon
The Angels should just sign Wood & Hudson and see where they are at the trade deadline.
See, the Angels can’t win with their fanbase. They went and made a big offer to Cole, who I think we can all agree was going to be a Yankee all along.
They whif, pivot to get Rendon who solidifies 3b with power and a glove they haven’t had in decades. He also protects Trout in the lineup. Now it seems the fans all want the Angels to trade for an Ace, but think you can get an Ace with peanuts, and keep Adell or Marsh.
One of Adell or Marsh will have to go for a legit Frontline starter. Period. That’s just the price of pitching in today’s game.
Agreed. Seems most Angels fans in the comments are saying “I wouldn’t give up Adell and I’d hate to get rid of Marsh but we need this guy!” Lol
Rendon‘s barely above average defensively based on dWAR, he hasn’t been a great defender for years. He’s also not a power hitter. Agreed on the price of pitching though, they should just dangle one of them for a controllable ace and see if they can get one.
Adell will have to go for anything close to a frontline starter. Marsh gets you like Ray on his last most expensive arb year and you probably need a couple more pieces. Ray isnt nothing but he is only around for next year.
i think we cant agree about anything on Cole. Cole went to the Yankees because he was a fan and/or they offered the most money. hard to seperate both factors and see which influenced more given both were in their favor, though the latter was very much in no one’s favor.
Good lord, why are they even bothering? The Indians don’t want to trade him and the Angels don’t want to trade the guys it would take to get him.
What is the point of keeping Adell, so the Angels can have another decade of having a great position player that never makes the postseason? Trade him for pitching. It’s not a guarantee, but proven quality major league starters are much more likely to succeed than even top 10 prospects. Could be a mistake, but OF prospects aren’t really that hard to replace no matter how hyped they are.
What’s the point of having Adell? Pretty freaking clear. He’s near ML ready and the team has Rendon, Ohtani, and Trout on it. It’s not like we’re talking about a guy who is years off.
Who will pitch? Trout? Ohtani is going to cost stupid money in Arb since he is racking up stats on both sides. A big year this season could net him like 10M in his first Arb season and 30+ by the final year. Steamers says you added 5.6 WAR to the team that was 16th in position player WAR last season. Its a good lineup but not even in the top 5 in MLB, and they have done almost nothing to improve the second worst pitching staff in MLB. Ohtani returning helps the pitching some, but you lose at bats with the added off days around starts, and he might only throw like 24 tops pitching once a week. So Ohtani is worth more but not just all bonus since the AB go down with IP. Oh yeah and when Ohtani hits Pujols is at 1B with his decrepit defense.
I think pitchers who are good dont want to deal with how Ohtani effects there schedules since him pitching every Sun for instance whacks out when peoples turns are.
Yeah just go down to the Outfielder Store and get yourself a new 20 year old overall #2 prospect. Angels all acting like that would be difficult.
Trout made the playoffs bru and we need Adell as he’s part of this run. The real problem is that jordyn Adams and Kyren Periss are the types of prospects we’d want to move but they’re like both 18 still. All soon to be major leaguers are much needed for this push.
Oh yeah, that 0-3 series. Yeah, that made his career, didn’t it?
So they can trade him after his second year of arbitration. Angels fans don’t realize they cant have 3 players making 30m per. Simmons is free agent next season guess they’ll let him go to make room for Adell? They need to make all their moves to win now or they’ll be laughing stock paying Trout/Rendon 37m and 38m per season as 37 year olds
How would letting Simmons go “make room” for Adell, who doesn’t play the same position and would have quite possibly already worked his way up to a spot on the big league roster in 2020?
Their money is not infinite, what are they going to pay to keep Simmons? Making 15M this season, you’re going to likely have to pay him more. Bogaerts is top paid short at 20m through his age 33 so I’d probably say something close to 4/80. Angels paying Upton through 2022, Pujols through 2021, Rendon 2026, Trout 2030. That’s 4 players making over 100m of salary and none of them are pitching.
Arte sold his billboard company for 8 billion dollars. . I am sure he has some money socked away for a rainy day to pay Simmons. He also has a deal the City of Anaheim to buy the stadium and surrounding land. Judging by the recent payroll increase, I am sure Arte has plans to bring in additional revenue with these new business ventures. The Angels have never been a team near the tax threshold but it appears Arte opened up the purse strings a bit. Pujols is off the books in a couple of years so that is an extra 25M a year. and Upton the year after, so another 21M year.
Okay….still don’t follow how letting Simmons go rather than extending him either at your projected 4/80 or some other deal, “make[s] room for Adell.” What does Adell have to do with it? Like at all?
Because you’re incapable of reading a full comment. Say they manage to get Simmons 20M for next year that means the angels will be paying 5 players 138.8M. Have fun with your top starters of Tehran and Bundy a much improvement over last year’s Harvey and Cahil. Angels paying 4 players more than the entire Oakland A’s who they probably finish behind in standings.
Plenty capable of reading a full comment. No matter how many ways you rephrase it, “hey the Angels will be paying 4 players x-$ and if they re-sign Simmons they will pay him money too” is not difficult to read.
Also no matter how you rephrase it it will continue not answering my question/having anything to do with Jo Adell and whatever “making room” for him means. I mean, I guess within that there’s an implicit answer of “it doesn’t have anything to do with Jo Adell, but I mentioned him for some reason.”
You can do the “5 players making so much money!” thing again if you want. You seem to like it.
Onta – Yeah, I didn’t get that either. Pujols comes off next year and Upton the year after. We have plenty of money to spend and a year or two over the tax line doesn’t matter in a win-now environment. I think extending Simmons is a must for us. Watching Rendon, Simmons and Fletcher will be a treat this season, with LaStella catching what they throw him at first.
Stupid not to deal Adell for Clevinger. What do the Angels need more than anything to have a chance? Frontline starters! Pitching is what wins WS, good hitters are more easily attainable. The way the fans talk about Adell like he is a sure thing All-Star is laughable. Honestly, I would much rather have Pache from the Braves system.
When the Angels missed out on the starters market this is what they’re left with. Gotta remember that the price of quality pitching on the open market has a huge impact on the price of trading from one. Now teams realizing that those starters got stupid money players with more const efficient starters know they are more valuable than ever. I’m not saying I’d give up Adell for Clevinger but he’s likely to be dealt for a real front line starter if the Angels finally go that route
The angels trying to trade for a pitcher is hysterical.
Lol. No way angels trade Adell and no way Cleveland takes anything less
I don’t know much about the Angels, but why don’t they see about getting Price from the Red Sox? Of course, they’d be taking their chances on him staying healthy and rebounding, but if he does, he is an ace, and they wouldn’t have to give up much in prospects, assuming they take on most of his salary.
Clevenger is exactly what the Angels need right now to become a contender, but I doubt the Indians give him up for Adel.
why would Cleveland trade Clevenger at this point when they dont have to – and it would take more than than Adel — Brian Goodwin and Adel might get the deal done
Agreed, but if the Indians think they have enough pitching Adel and another prospects like Thaisis gives them high end controllable peices.
prospects are suspects
Adell would get the deal done in five seconds. But the Angels are not going to do it and the Indians are not going to take less.
This is a trade that Eppler needs to make. But he won’t.
A prospect for proven frontline SP is a no brainer.
Prospects are suspects until they prove themselves in the ML
Agreed. but I think he might get Price or Happ.
Dodgers want Lindor.
but they won’t give up Lux so no deal!
When you sign the best Third Baseman in baseball the next logical step would be to make sure you are set on the mound. Clevinger is the guy. If Adell is too big a reach then the Angels better come up with a different package. The AL West is vulnerable and the Angels can finish what they’ve started with that big splash signing of Rendon.
Clevinger and Mercado for Adell and Marsh OR Canning. Angels get their ace and RF, Indians get what they want.
BTW, an ace now reaches 180 innings in today’s MLB climate. 180 is the new 200. 30 starts, 6 innings per start, 180 is the benchmark. Although injured, Clevinger had 21 starts at 126 innings – 6 innings per start.
Nolan Arenado says hi.
Let me know when Arenado starts hitting outside of Colorado.
The best third baseman in baseball plays for an Angels division opponent that plays in Oakland.
Chapmen? Bregman, maybe, not Chapmen. Not even Chapman’s defense makes up that difference.
263/348/507 vs 314/393/567
You can make the argument for Bregman, not Chapman.
I still think Chapman is the best but Bregman or Chapman both better then Rendon. Chapman hits in one of the worst hitting parks in baseball with otherworldly defense. Bregman hits In one of the best parks to hit in so it’s close I wouldn’t argue either way but both are better then Rendon.
Whoa no on that assessment. Chapman’s .235/.314/456 numbers away from his own park says otherwise. Even Overratenado from Colorado had better road numbers than Chapman. Bregman mashed on the road which says the “cheating” crap didn’t affect him one bit. I still think Rendon mashes even better than Bregman if he played in Houston.
Chapman was way better on the road you can have some noise but overall A’s stadium much harder to hit at then Astros or Nationals park. I would hate to hit at Oakland for all my home games what a disadvantage statistic wise. I do like Rendon’s swing though but Chapman just makes up so much on defense also you can say that Chapman hit in poor luck hitting for a .270 babip by far the worst of his career. Very close though and there are a lot of very good third baseman right now. You could probably take your pick of any of the top 4 or 5.
“2018 Chapman was way better on the road”
If you popup the ball, Oakland is a tough place to hit. The Foul ground is what makes Oakland tough.
I don’t know enough about Chapman to know if that park kills him. But the differences between the numbers of Rendon and Chapman are very large.
Bruin yes, Chapman’s 2018 numbers on the road were amazing. As was Matt Carpenter. They were 2nd and 1st respectively in OPS. Rendon was 3rd. Arenado 16th (min 200 at bats). The 2019 off-year for Chapman can’t be overlooked. That said, I’d love Chapman on my team without a doubt.
Rendon has been doing this for much longer and his D is overlooked. He’s no Chapman or Arenado but his glove is good.
The Angels are not going to trade 7 years of Adell for 3 years of a pitcher who missed 3 months with a back issue.
I not a big fan of FIP, but the prior three years Clevinger’s FIP was 3.82.
Bottom line, Clevinger has too many questions marks. You don’t trade the #2 prospect in baseball for him.
You do what you must to win a World Series within the next 3 years after the Rendon signing. If you feel it can be done with Adell then ride it out. If you do not feel they can do it without a stud at the top of the rotation then a trade must be made. These are the tough decisions of a team that’s not horrible and not great but you just signed a stud hitter to go with another stud hitter. Dilemmas.
If you could tell me Clevinger would be the difference, then sure.
The Angels need to offset some salary, and I’m very happy going into the playoffs with Ohtani starting game one and Adell in RF. And if the Angels do make the wild card, then Ohtani will be starting game one. If Ohtani doesn’t pitch well this year, then the Angels are not going to make the Wild Card.
The Angels would never make this deal and Cleveland would take about five seconds to accept.
The Angels need pitching they need top of the rotation pitching or they are not going anywhere.
The Indians have a guy with top of the rotation stuff who is just getting better every year. He has proven his stuff in the big leagues. He has some injury concerns but if that guy had pitched 200 innings last year which would mean 200 innings two years in a row we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.
The Angels have an elite prospect in Adell who hasn’t proven anything at the big league level. He struggled in his first look at AAA which may be nothing and he has had injury issues as well.
The Angels have the chance to get a potential TOR arm for an elite prospect. The Angels badly need this arm to really have any chance of competing What would you do if you are the G.M.? Do you hold onto the stud prospect who will probably be good but no guarantees and who doesn’t address your biggest weakness or do roll the dice and trade this prospect for three years of a potential TOR arm who has already proven himself in the Major Leagues.
Exactly Bruins. I think the Angels should make the deal, package it up if they have to (they need a RF). There isn’t a right answer here except that the Angels are now in a damned if you do/don’t scenario. If the Angels make the postseason can they match up Games 1-4 with the other staffs in the AL?
There is no right answer because no on knows the future.
But you don’t trade the #2 prospect in baseball for a pitcher that is not pristine. We are not talking about Buehler, we are talking about Clevinger.
Clevinger questions concern are his Back, FIP and Innings You don’t do it.
Then Ohtani should be a question mark in your eyes. Same with Heaney. It goes to show the Angels starting pitching is teetering on disaster. If it wasn’t we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
As for Buehler, put Clevinger in Dodger Stadium and he’s Buehler 2.0. Looking at Buehler’s road numbers there is a case to be made that Clevinger when healthy is better.
Mac what I’m saying is prospects are overvalued especially the toolsy guys that’s lowest projection is there hit tool. It’s really hard to hit a baseball especially when thrown by big leaguers. I am leary of the high end prospect who’s hit tool is his lowest tool of the the five tools. All trades are risky especially when you trade for a pitcher but you aren’t going to win without a good rotation and the Angels need pitchers this is why I think they should do it. It is risky but it also is risky not doing it. I realize that Adell has tremendous upside but I think his downside is higher then most think for a top 5 prospect.
Mr Guest, I agree, prospects are overvalued. If the Angels are going to dangle Adell, which I don’t think they should, it would be for a pitcher with less warts than Clevinger.
I’m not knocking Clevinger, anymore than I’m knocking Harold Baines when I say he’s not a Hall of Famer.
For the heck of it, I went back ten years, Baseball America. #2 Prospect. Mike Trout. Sandwiched between Dominic Brown and Desmond Jennings.
If you trade the #2 prospect, you better be right and there way of knowing your right.
You must’ve been referring to Bruins’ overvalued comment. I could make a case on prospects being undervalued too. Nevertheless, I am strictly looking at the Angels and what they currently have from an outsiders perspective.
I understand full well why giving up Adell would be too big a risk for a guy like Clevinger. I also know what Clevinger can do from watching him carve up my Jays and how big-time he could be in the OC.
If it were me I would make the deal but ensure a return for more than just Clevinger. He would not be the only player coming to Anaheim if the price is Adell.
Clevinger not pristine? Ok……
Andy.. no he’s not.
Back issues, FIP Issues, Inning Issues. Only once has he started more than 25 games.
I watched every game Clevinger pitched last year. He was my most most expensive fantasy league pitcher.
Great stuff. But also great risk. Backs are risky.
Any pitcher is risky but you can’t win without pitching.
I think the old adage of pitching wins championships is one of the most spot on sayings there is. Good pitching shuts down good hitting most of the time.
The Angels just don’t have enough good pitching right now and Clevinger helps in that area. Clevinger really doesn’t have an injury history he has just had one injury that I am aware of and he can’t back strong after that back injury.
I really think the Indians should just keep him I wouldn’t trade a potential top of the rotation pitcher for a prospect even one as good as Adell.
The Indians still have a great rotation and I think they are the favorites to win their division. If they traded Clevinger then their rotation takes a big hit. The Angels really need Clevinger badly that division they are in is no joke.
In an injury shortened campaign, Clevinger produced career bests in ERA, FIP and WAR with 12K per 9.
From July 3rd to September 24, he had 16 starts, 103 innings (6+ per start) 134 strikeouts and 1.76 ERA, after he came back from the injury
In his 21 starts he was a beast. But no mater how you slice it, you still have the three questions.
Back, FIP and Innings.
No team is going to trade the #2 prospect in baseball for a pitcher that has three question marks… no matter how big of a beast he was with 21 starts the previous year.
.285 XWOBA in 2018. Followed by a .264 XWOBA in 2019. If all you have to complain about is a career FIP number—you have nothing to complain about! Clevinger is a TOR arm. The numbers don’t lie. However, your cherry picked FIP number does. Read a statcast page. You May learn something!
Agree to disagree
So you are saying his FIP for 2017 and 2018 being .59 higher than his ERA is not any concern at all?
The sample size is too small to form a conclusive opinion, but that small sample size… IS.. the problem.
He’s thrown 130 innings once. I’d love to have him, but not for Adell.
Poor talent scouting has plagued the Angel’s for years, and Clevinger is not the only screw-up. Traded Clevinger for Pestano in 2014 and look at both ends of the trade, where is Pestano? This trade is another of Dipoto’s stupidity attacks when he was the Angels GM, and now Eppler is asking for him? OMG!
Obviously none of us are on the phone, but I’d imagine for Clevinger, Eppler would say “outside of Adell, how does this deal get done?” One scenario would be MLB pitching and a solid 2B. The Indians signed Hernandez, but could use a younger option as well. Clevinger for Heaney, Marsh, and Rengifo. Heaney fills that pitching slot (with a needed LHP) along with Rengifos MLB ready glove and bat. Then Marsh is a future stud OF for them. The Halos turn that Heaney spot into an ace.
Hopefully Eppler is smart enough to see that Clevinger is the kind of pitcher you “make” room for by being creative.
@dirkg Heaney is injured too often and has shown inconsistent performance when he has pitched. He would have little trade value.
Heaney ??? He couldnt get my grandmother out
Heaney had over 11 strikeouts per nine last year and can’t get your grandmother out.
Wow, great post.
I seen him pitch — he cant get himself out – stop fooling yourself — and you should see how bad my granny hits !!!!!
You’ve seen him pitch? OK, you’re not a scout.. Got it.
Heaney can probably get his granmother out, but then both will need 6 weeks to recuperate afterwards.
Anyone can see the guy doesnt have it
Not everyone vinny. I watch just about every Angels game and I think Heaney has great potential. I want to see how he does in a full season free of injury. That’s been his problem, not a lack of talent.
I heard the same thing when Heaney was coming up with the Marlins — he just doesnt seem to have it — he is a bullpen guy — maybe — could he turn into another Andrew Miller ? maybe — but right now he needs a pitching coach to teach him a different way to pitch — like Houston did with Cole
Without Adell, this deal doesn’t get done.
Every team already has a Renfigo somewhere in their system. A .787 OPS in the PCL isn’t exactly a selling point. Heaney isn’t exacty an enticement. The guy has topped 105 IP one time since 2015.. That leaves Marsh in place of Adell for Clevinger. How about if the Angels get to substitute Marsh for Adell, the Indians get to substitute Civale for Clevinger. Marsh for Civale seems like a more even deal anyway.
You aren’t getting Clevinger without Adell it’s just that simple.
Heaney, a mediocre pitcher, who can not stay healthy, a .241 hitting infielder that would not start in our lineup and Marsh, who is not currently a top 100 prospect according to the MLB Pipeline for a proven pitcher. You are joking with that offer being good enough. Outside of Adell plus, the Angels do not have the pieces that Cleveland would need back in a Clevinger trade. This is just more ridiculous trade comments by Jon Morosi that will never happen.
Hockey John, I never know who anyone is talking to,
Heaney is not mediocre, but he can’t stay healthy. Heaney has had two years where he pitched over 100 innings, he was good bother years. Not great, but good.
Marsh is a top 100 prospect, but I don’t know why we are talking about him. No way on God’s Green Earth is Marsh a person that the Indians want for Clevinger..
I commented on dirkg’s proposal of Heaney, Marsh, and Rengifo for Clevinger.
I gotta chuckle at these comments. Indians just traded a recovering, but Cy Young winner, Corey Kluber for Clase and -ahem- Deshields. The Angel’s should explore every possibility outside of Adell.
Dirkg, Three years of a cheap stud like Clevinger is worth much more than an older, declining, more expensive pitcher like Kluber. The Kluber trade was part saving money and part getting help for the 2020 Indians. The LA offer for Kluber was for a prospect only package providing no help for 2020. Since the Kluber trade, teams have called the Indians wanting Clase so they must have received something of use.
Cleveland has no reason to trade Clevinger at this time. He is cheap and controllable for 3 seasons. The Indians will always listen on a player, but that does not mean that they are shopping him. Without including Adell, the Angels DO NOT have the pieces that the Indians would need to move Clevinger.
John, trust me I get the difference between acquiring Kluber vs. Clevinger. I’ve played a lot of baseball and can understand where both of these organizations stand. My point was that very few would have guessed Kluber would be traded for a barely broken in MLB reliever and at best a 4th OF. To say “Adell or bust” is very shortsighted especially given that the Indians currently dont have themselves a “top 100” prospect in their system. Can a deal be done, maybe, but if I’m Eppler, I’m looking at all angles.
Dirkg, I’m pretty sure the Indians have three top 100 prospects, Nolan Jones, Tristen McKenzie and Tyler Freeman.
Roster Resource has them ranked 13 with four top 100 prospects.
Logan Allen 95. There best is George Valera at 42. Rocchio 72
Nolan Jones 46.
Freeman and McKenzie is not in their top 100,
Even if Adell is part of the deal for Clevinger,I can’t see a match that the Indians would trade him for.
This is more Morosi click bait.
If the Angels offered Adell, the Indians would accept in less than a heatbeat.
@cookm…clevinger has one trip to the dl since 2015…this is a guy who can’t stay healthy?
Eppler has pressure to land a front line pitcher before spring training, Adel is the peice that can get it done.
Its so interesting how teams find their suspects to be all world talent — like the Padres who have all these cant miss suspects but no one trades for them
Who is that exactly. Baseball Prospectus rated Tatis #3 and Adell #2.
So which can’t miss padres prospect are you talking about… Tatis?
all the rest of them in the Padres system
Tatis is in the ML already
Adell is eight months younger than Tatiis and will be up in late April.
But similar prospects.
They just dealt Urias.
cant hit — he is a loser
The highest Urias ever got was #17.. Baseball American had him as high as 31.
He is not Tatis or Adell.
When you want a pitcher as good as Clevinger whose cheap and under control and have a prospect like Adell, you’re naive to think he is not going to be the asking price.
He’s absolutely the asking price.
But Clevinger has some warts. 1) Back. 2) Innings. 3) FIP.
And, the Angels already got taken to the cleaners once, which means they are less likely to get taken twice.
For the Angels, Trading Adell for Clevinger is too risky.
Seems you Angels fans think like the Padres fans — all your suspects are cant miss players
@mecousingvinny The last 2 times the Angels had a prospect as high as #2, it was Mike Trout and Shohei Ohtani. They may turn out alright.
Another 4th place finish in 2020 for the Angels
No one should be bringing up Marsh. If the Indians valued Marsh, Kluber would already be an Angel.
This is actually a great point. The Angel’s went down the Marsh route with the Kluber hunt. Somehow the Rangers scored the prize and barely fired one arrow.
The Indians asked for Marsh in a Kluber deal and the Angels said no. Blame the Angels for not getting Kluber.
Fletcher tweeted out that Cleveland wanted not just one, but two of the top Angel prospects, one being outfielder Brandon Marsh, who some say could reach the Angles roster at some point in the 2020 campaign.
When it comes to who the second prospect was, that’s anyone’s guess, but the fact that the Indians had Marsh on their list is no shock as the team wants to add to and rebuild their outfield.
Come on guys. Please stop saying that you knew Cole was signing with the Yankees from the beginning because a super majority of fans, in general, and baseball experts postulated he would sign for your team. As a matter of fact, there are multifarious threads on this site wherein you guaranteed Yankee fans would be wrong to think they had a chance at Cole because he was raised in CA.
In reference to the rumor addressed in this article, there is no way Indians/Angels make this trade without Adell as the centerpiece. And, I think the Indians will keep Clevinger anyway because they realize the immense value in a starter with #1 – like potential.
It’s good Angels are looking at him though because it shows they’re going in the right direction. They just have to want a starter bad enough to win, and that gives the other team the leverage, so they must give up key prospects to get it done.
Hey Mick I will tell you I was wrong I believed that Cole was going to sign with the Angels.
I just didn’t factor in how much the Yankees wanted this guy. It’s been a while since the Yankees just went after a guy with this much gusto. In hindsight, no other team had a chance the Yankees were not going to be outbid end of story. They focused in on that guy and just not going to let him go. They paid a ton for him but they got there man. I also don’t believe for a second Cole signed with the Yankees because that was his childhood team. He signed because the Yankees outbid every other team and it appears by quite a bit and that was that the Yankees get there man.
Well said post. I can speak for many Halo fans in saying we thought if Arte coined up $300M, Cole would be an Angel. I live just a few miles from where Cole grew up and know one of his father’s (Mark Cole) good friends. Mark was a huge Angel fan and attended many games with our family friend. The OC lifestyle is hard to beat. Gerrit and Trout would have owned SoCal. But many of us underestimated Gerrits desire for the NY spotlight and NYs ability to coin up to $324M (given recently taking on the Stanton contract). It is what it is, on to pitching Plan B…
Mick. The Yankees took a long time to say they were interested. Once they did, it changed the game.
The Yankees seemed reluctant to break through the luxury tax threshold, that’s where fans got it wrong. Not so much with Cole, but how the Yankees completely ignored the tax threshold.
How long do you think Clevinger lasts with that pitching motion?
A quick response to those questioning the value of a #2 player. I’ll use 2017 as an example because these guys are now in MLB. 2017 Prospects (MLB.com):
1) Shohei Ohtani
2) Gleyber Torres
3) Victor Robles
4) Vlad Guerrero Jr.
5) Eloy Jimenez
6) Ronald Acuna
These are franchise players (verdict still out on Robles). Trout, Ohtani, Adell is the Halo core for years to come.
@dirkg The Angels have been on both sides of the fence when it comes to holding on the top prospects. Both times we have elected to hold on to a top 5 prospect. One time it worked out, one time it didn’t. Everyone wanted Trout in the a trade, but we said no and held on to him. Obviously this is the time it worked out. Now for the bad…….we once had Brandon Wood, a can’t miss 3rd base prospect that hit 40+ bombs with 50+ doubles in 134 games in the minors. We had a chance to get Miguel Cabrera, but the Angels said no and thought Wood would be something special. Well, it didnt quite work out that way.
Trout and Wood were the last 2 of the last 3 times we have have a top 5 prospect and those examples are at opposite ends of spectrum examples. For me, I would be reluctant to give up a top 5 talent. It would take something special in order for me to give up a top 5 prospect. Clevinger just isn’t that guy. I would keep Adell in this case.
I mean. I wouldn’t have balked sooo hard if they ask for Adell. There’s a ton of RF talent in FA rn and upcoming the next few seasons.
His stock isn’t going to be higher than it is right now and There’s no guarantee he makes it as a stud. Ie major hyped prospects like Brandon Wood and Dallas McPherson(I probably missed that, too lazy to look up.) didn’t pan out for us.
Butttt Shohei and Trout we’re major hyped prospects that did soooo. It’s tough.
I was advocating Aybar over Wood and I knew the Angels didn’t think that highly of McPherson when they played Amezega over McPherson in the playoffs.
Not to mention, McPherson had a bad back. Now who else had a back problem? By the way, McPherson got as high as 12.
A recent comp of an above average pitcher for a top-5 OFer would be the Jose Quintana for Eloy Jimenez trade (both Chicago teams). That trade, 2.5 years later, already looks like a turd for the Cubs.
It is not a good comp, however, as Clevinger has been and is a better pitcher than Quintana ever has been.
John, not sure you looked up the right guy. Trade was mid 2017, so the Cubs were looking up to 2016 numbers. Q had 4 straight 200+ inning seasons with a 3.20 ERA, 1.16 WHIP, 181 Ks in 2016, and actually a winning record (13-12) on a 78-84 WSox team. Qs 2016 WAR was 5.4; Clevingers 2019 WAR was 4.2. I’m comparing these 2 years as these would be the cumulative and yearly numbers each team would be analyzing.
Here are two pitchers with back injuries in 2019, Pitcher “A” is younger.
One can be had for a song, the other, people are talking about trading Jo Adell to obtain.
304 IP, 3.20 ERA 125 ERA+, 3.43 FIP
321 IP, 3.05 ERA, 145 ERA+, 3.65 FIP
For the price, give me Alex Wood every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
I am not giving up my song for Alex Wood. Alex wood had 1 good year and has giving no indications he will be that guy again. Take away that one good year, and he is close to league average. I am not giving up Adell for Clevinger though,
Whats a good year.? One hundred and 150 innings with a sub three ERA.
Wood has had two good years. How about mid 3s ERA. Then it’s four good years.
If it’s sub three, Clevinger has had zero good years. If it’s just over three, then he’s had one good year.
I’ll give up the salary for Alex Wood and it’s not even a tough choice.
@macstruts It is all relative, but for what the Angels need, which is top tier starter, I think a ERA+ of 135 or more would be a good season. I doubt we can get Clevinger, but he would be more ideal than Wood. I would have way more faith is Clevinger putting up better numbers than Alex Wood next year. When I hear Wood, I think Harvey or Cahill 2.0 I am sure those guys are still available too.
The Angels don’t need top tier starters. Until the October hits, no team “needs” top tier starters. They sure help but no team needs them.
If the Angels sign Alex Wood and you tell me the Angels top six starters will get 800 innings, I’ll say Ohtani will then start the Wild Card game.
You need solid innings from your starters.
And of course I’d rather have Clevinger than Wood. I’d much much rather have Wood and Adell than Clevninger.
800 innings seems optimistic. I believe Bundy and Teheran will give 350 innings, but I wouldnt count on Ohtani, Wood, Heaney and Canning for the other 450. The Angels can sign Wood if they wanted to, but they want something better. Not just want, they need something better
Eight hundred innings is optimistic. But they need those solid 800 innings. An Ace is a luxury.
I think with Wood, they can get 800 solid innings, and I don’t know who would be better.
And IMO, the Angels would be fools to trade Adell for Clevinger. There are maybe five pitchers in baseball I’d trade Adell for…. Maybe five. Why should the Angels create a hole in RF?
I guess since the Angels FO dropped the ball on pitching so far do they gamble on David Price,– JA Happ — and Chris Archer is trades to put together something — wont take any front line suspects to pick up those guys — but the Angels have to take on alot of payroll
Vinny From my perspective, I say no to all 3. David Price being the best of the 3, but a 90M+ gamble on an iffy elbow is too much.
I know its a gamble but with the current starting staff it appears hopeless — Trevor Bauer is the only front line pitcher in next yrs FA and my guess is as the Reds fall out of the race he could be available at the deadline cuz there is NO way the Reds sign him — good pitching talent just isnt out there
Wow a “ Breakout for Goodwin”? 17 HR’s and 47 RBI’s. Watch out Mike Trout.
You have a problem with the Angels offense? Oh.. OK.
To all Angels’ fans. Adell is worth a small fraction of Clevinger. When you accept/realize this then all the ignorant trade proposals will be clear to you. Here’s the truth. You don’t have the prospect or position clout to land Clevinger. Adell’s injuries raise a serious red flag and I would take Johnson over Marsh every day of the week and twice on Sunday. To attempt to throw in your mediocre MIF players is laughable. Good luck to you guys in 2020, but it will be without Clevinger.
The only way it could happen is in a 3 way deal. Those are difficult to consummate.
Adell’s injuries? What are talking about?
If you read the article, cdav, it looks like Cleveland engaged in the conversation involving a Clevenger for Adell and another player trade. Sounds like Cleveland disagrees with you.
I can say with confidence that Morosi is FOS on this one. He usually is and his rumors are rarely, if ever accurate. Believe what you want to believe, but I’m telling you that if the Angels are acquiring Mike Clevinger it’s gonna hurt. He’s worth every bit as much as Lindor, and maybe more with the extra year of control and lesser cost.