The Astros’ sign-stealing scandal has been the dominant story in baseball over the past several weeks, though it didn’t come as a revelation to many throughout the game. A scout from another team told Barry Svrluga and Dave Sheinin of the Washington Post: “It was a big open secret, really big. Throughout baseball, throughout the scouting community, for several years, not just starting in 2017. I would say probably 2016, maybe earlier, through [2019], things were going on that were blatantly against the rules.”
If true, it further calls into question the Astros’ accomplishments in recent years. They amassed 100-plus victories in each of the past three campaigns, won the World Series in 2017 and took home the American League pennant a season ago. GM Jeff Luhnow and manager A.J. Hinch were suspended for a year apiece last month and lost their jobs as a result of their complicity in stealing signs during the team’s title-winning season. Luhnow, it seems, was a key part of a scheme called “Codebreaker” that the team used from 2017-18.
It’s possible neither Luhnow nor Hinch will work in the majors again as a result of their wrongdoing. That would’ve sounded ridiculous last fall when the Astros were the toast of the AL and vying for a World Series against the Nationals. The Nats upended the Astros in seven games, but Washington entered the Fall Classic wary of Houston’s shenanigans.
“It was amazing, once [it was assured] we were playing the Astros, how many people were coming out of the woodwork to let us know what they were doing,” one member of the Nationals told Svrluga and Sheinin.
Second baseman Brian Dozier, a National last season and a 2018 member of the Dodgers (whom the Astros took down in the 2017 World Series), received advance warning from his ex-LA teammates that Houston was behaving unethically. “Several” members of the Dodgers informed Dozier before last year’s World Series that the Astros were stealing signs, according to Svrluga and Sheinin. Meanwhile, former Astros and Nationals reliever Tony Sipp told Nats ace Max Scherzer to worry about Houston’s stealing of signs. The Nationals ended up overcoming it by using wristbands and multiple signs, as Svrluga and Sheinin explain in their piece.
The Astros advanced to the 2019 World Series by defeating the Yankees in the ALCS for the second time in three years. Like the Nationals, the Yankees suspected something was amiss.
“We’re so focused on them cheating, we’re forgetting we have to just go out and play,” one Yankees official said before the series, which the Astros ultimately won in six games.
Outfielder Carlos Beltran and catcher Brian McCann, both now retired from playing, are in the unique position of having suited up for the Astros and Yankees recently. Beltran even worked for the Yankees as a special advisor last season, and he informed “low level” New York officials of Houston’s cheating, per Ken Rosenthal, Evan Drellich and Marc Carig of The Athletic (subscription link). Beltran then became the Mets’ manager this past fall, only to lose his job last month as a result of the Astros’ violations.
While Beltran initially denied any knowledge of the Astros’ misdeeds, the 42-year-old potential Hall of Famer was apparently an important figure in them. McCann asked him to stop, two members of the 2017 Astros told The Athletic, but Beltran “steamrolled everybody.” At that point, he was one of the most accomplished individuals on the roster and someone whom younger players (and even Hinch) were basically reluctant to cross.
Beltran was part of commissioner Rob Manfred’s investigation into the Astros, but the latter elected against punishing any of the players from the 2017 club. However, if Beltran really was so instrumental in the Astros’ crimes, it’s hard to imagine him working in MLB again. He may even have less of a chance to get into Cooperstown. Regardless, this latest news on the Astros is yet another black mark on an organization that has taken a beating this winter.
Strip the 2017 WS title and dissolve this team already
That World Series now is like we have won 6 because it has become one of the biggest WS wins in recent history.
Astros have a huge target on their chest and they aren’t worried
They should change their name to the Houston Asterisks.
That was money
My god I feel dumb for not thinking of that one.
Yes it was lol
Operation: Codebreaker and its practice of “dark arts” was a much more systemic part of the organization than initially thought, perhaps more so than any other organization in history. Codebreaker was implemented everywhere in the organization, meaning it was an accepted reality throughout all departments. I am unsure if there are precedents to this scandal. But the two closest I can think of are below.
We know that in 1951 (famous for Thomson’s Shot Heard Round the World) Giants’ coach Herman Franks would use a telescope to steal the signs from a centerfield clubhouse, relay the info via buzzer system to the bullpen, where another player would give a signal to the hitter. Thomson’s home run may have been hit because of this practice.
The 1980s White Sox used their scoreboard, specifically w/ a camera & toggle switch to steal signs from the opposition. This happened for many years.
And there have been hundreds and hundreds of other accusations over the years, some using the more conventional ways that every team more or less uses, and others more like the two listed above. We don’t know how systemic the cheating operation was to the two teams listed above (and others). Maybe the advances in technology only make that possible today. But…
The punishments have been doled out and I think we need to move on. This should set a precedent at the very least and that is how we should think of the Astros scandal. It is silly to talk about asterisks (unless in fun) or forfeiting money or stripping them of the title. If so, then there needs to be investigations for many other teams of the past. The bar has been set as of now, just like 2005 policies for performance-enhancing drugs set the bar for steroid punishment. Future breaches shall be less forgiving.
Don’t. It’s been used on MLBTR threads before this one.
“Trashtros”
@Tipsy Punishment has been doled out for the 2017 trash can banging scheme (home games). There has been no punishment for additional cheating we have learned about since the commissioner’s report. Cheating on the road in 2017, the use of electronics in the batters box (see Robinson Chirinos video where an electronic falls off his bat in the world series), and all cheating that took place in 2018 and 2019, now confirmed in this article.
No, it’s not time to move on, and no comprehensive punishment has not been doled out.
Well said, Tipsy McStagger. You’re absolutely correct. We do indeed need to move on and stop this foolish talk of stripping titles. They weren’t the only ones cheating and, as you point out, this stuff has been going on throughout the history of baseball.
That made me think of The Jetsons.
Meh, only if you took the moneyline against being funny.
@Buzzed Capra. FYI, relevant conduct before the rule change can’t be considered cheating. And manual non-technical sign stealing was never considered cheating. You know all this, but your desperate posts fein otherwise
The official punishments have been doled out. Now it’s the fans’ turn.
beisbolista — I don’t think we should ignore any new information. And perhaps I spoke a little bit ahead of myself. If the commissioner (perhaps as pressure from fans and even players) wishes to open the door to further punishment … okay. But I PERSONALLY don’t think any new information should be used to officially punish the organization any further as we know the whole damn organization cheated or at least knew the cheating that was going on.
The organization, during that World Series run, will always have a black mark and live on in infamy. That is perhaps the biggest punishment of all. These players and their accomplishments will always be brought into question, maybe not to the extent of the legendary 1919 Black Sox (as they cheated in order to lose, while the Astros cheated for the opposition to lose), but brought into question nonetheless.
That said, this scandal has set the baseline of what to expect in any future sign-stealing scandals that use enhanced/advanced technology to give their players an edge, especially when implemented into such an integrated system.
Foolish Talk??? Why on earth should they be allowed to keep the title that they don’t deserve. They cheated to win it, and it’s been proven. If you cheat on a test, do you get to keep the score? If you cheat someone out of money, do you get to keep it? If you steal a car, is it yours to keep? It’s total BS that it hasn’t been stripped already. They have no right to be called World Champs.
No, unless other clubs were found to be cheating in the last several years, we do not need to move on. The Astros cheated and the Red Sox cheated. The investigation is complete for the Astros and they should be stripped of the title. Period. If the Red Sox are found to have broken the rules in as serious a fashion in 2018, that team should be stripped of the title.
Obviously, the Dodgers cannot be awarded a title for those two years so the titles are vacated. Period. Firing a few people will not stop this behavior. There needs to be serious consequences for the organizations involved.
I think this is all very well said.
Lol! This article doesn’t prove that the Astros were using technology in 2018 or 2019. It mentions rumors, but doesn’t state any facts or give any proof.
And the Robinson Chirinos video doesn’t prove anything either. No one has ever stated that the Astros used electronic equipment on their bats. That would be the dumbest idea ever. “Hey guys, look! I have an electronic device on my bat that vibrates to tell me what pitch is coming.”
Or “hey Cather and Ump. After I hit the ball, please don’t touch or look at my bat, because I don’t want you to see that I and cheating.”
Come on man, use common sense.
Tell that logic to Pete Rose – no punishment doled out to players was BS. Plenty of information – witnesses. Comish decision is partial, just wanting to keep $ flowing in on tickets, plus & NO official future deterrent – do this you get that !
Bruce & Fox:
You are opening Pandora’s Box. Rules and precedents are needed before we start stripping titles.
So, do you now propose that we investigate the 1951 Giants, and pending investigation, strip them of their title? Should we go back, and pending investigation, strip the 1983 White Sox of their division title? How about stripping the ’84 White Sox of their 5th place finish? The 1910-1914 Athletics (known to have cheated by stealing signs) won 4 pennants and 2 world series. The 1948 Cleveland Indians were W.S. champs and also had an elaborate sign-stealing operation. The pennant-winning 1976 Yankees. The division-winning 1999 Indians. The pennant-winning 2010 Phillies (this one has less meat than the others). Is there a statute of limitations? Where do we go with all of this?
If you think the titles should be stripped because a team has cheated, shouldn’t titles also retroactively be stripped when players have been found to have been employing steroids users from the 70,s 80s, 90s, and 00s? Cheating players helped win world series titles most of these years. On some teams, half the players were using (if not more). We could even go back to Mickey Mantle who used steroids and a corked bat. Should we retroactively strip all those Yankees titles he was a participant in?
Question: How many cheating players are needed to determine the stripping of a title? All of the players? Well, all the Astros did not cheat. Half of them? One of them? Do we only strip titles when management knew? Does management have to sign off on the cheating before we strip the title? Should we only care about cheating when a team has won a world series title? What about a pennant? A division? A last-place team that knocked out a team vying for the wildcard — what do we do with that? Or should we use the Astros (and potentially the Red Sox) as a baseline and set some rules in place that need to be followed henceforth?
It’s been on Twitter for a long time as well.
The difference between peds to the scandal with astros was. Peds was an individual performance and the sign stealing using real time from a camera out in center the whole team was using. So again the scandal is bigger than peds. The problem is that the players gotten immunity and doesn’t get hurt again if they do it again.
This is where tony Clark really needs to discuss a rule just like how peds scandal came out that if you get caught for cheating you will get suspended for (x) amount games. It’s going to become bean ball for astros hitters and mlb and the union knows they have to step in and fix now once the cba ends.
Win.
I know I thought I was clever with Cheaterer’s Row
On the one hand, I see what you’re saying. On the other, why should any equity be brought to the table when punishing the Astros, they certainly didn’t consider the equity in their actions?
Players not punished – what about Joe Jackson – Shoeless Joe didn’t cheat – all he did was not tell on his teammates – and yet he is banned for eternity – reinstate Shoeless Joe – maybe even vote him into the HoF!!!
None of the Black Sox cheated. They threw games, which is far more serious. It’s a felony!
Yup.. And not one player was pushed. Not a single one punishment was not giving. This whole thing is a huge scandal starting from MLB commissioner down the line
Swell job regurgitating the information from the Athletic piece about the history of sign stealing…
And all the opposing teams’ turn whenever they face them, especially when Astros on the road. I suspect a lot of baseball will be played the old fashioned way – hard nosed, hard slides, high and tight. Bob Gibson and Don Drysdale come to mind.
Who, me? I don’t know of any Athletic piece (don’t they have a paywall?). I simply regurgitated information based on the research I have done, which is based on other people’s research, much of it from primary sources. The information is out there. If the Athletic makes the same claims that I do, it means they also did their research. Good for them.
Astros have a huge target on their ribs*
LouisanaAstro
So is that your way of justifying cheating. Be proud. Your morality meter is broken.
Maybe he should change his name to LoseranaAstro?
Did you mean to say a huge buzzer on their chests?
LouisianaTrAsH
What does this even mean? I respect your position as an Astros fan, but you can’t be serious here. That World Series is a tainted mess.
That means the Astros would have 6 asterisks. I bet that’s gotta feel good.
Strip the title
alienatingan entire fanbase and angering all the owners is not a good idea
Bow down and kiss our World Series Ring til we get our next Rings… For the H!
Haters… All Y’all
Sad. Really sad.
Haters? Houston had to cheat to win. They are the haters. My team won 3WS (10 12 and 14) And didnt have to cheat to do so. Nobody other than delusional Asterisks fans count houstons fake title. I hate the Dodgers and even I say they are the true ’17 champs. Your team is a pathetic laughingstock.
Dodgers can’t be true champs because they didn’t earn it any more than the Astros did. If Jansen was able to get the save in game 2 and the Dodgers drop 1 in Houston, they’re up 3-2 with the chance to close it out on their home field.
Well said Frisco!
But Jansen wasn’t able to……. Because the Astros were cheating
Game 2 was in Dodgers stadium. Do you honestly believe the Astros could get away with using the Dodgers center field cameras without LA finding out? Because that’s how they cheated at home. Jansen made a mistake.
It’s been plainly stated they were cheating on the road to bro. I think it takes reading the evidence without ur Trashstros colored glasses on. Be a realist man. Even as a fan u can’t condone the fact they cheated. Hope u don’t have kids and r saying ur ok with them cheating to win around them man.
I’m sure the Astros did do something on the road. I highly doubt they used the center field camera at Dodger Stadium, which is exactly what they did at MMP. You say it was plainly stated they cheated on the road and yet I don’t see any articles on google saying they did. I interact with a Dodgers fan at work and I even told him “Hey, if Jansen held on for the save in game 2 and LA drops one in Houston, they’re going back to LA up 3-2 with a chance to close it out on their home field”. He didn’t disagree with me at all. Realistically, the Dodgers had a chance to win despite the fact that the Astros technically cheated. Dodgers even won a game Houston despite the Astros cheating. Contrary to what people think, LA very much had a chance.
I know what the Astros have definitely won.
Your minds.
What are you doing here? Shouldn’t you be pulling gators off your mom? Or does she like rolling around with them?
When you have two world class teams competing, a slight illegal advantage can tip the scales. I read an article today that said the Astros were cheating on the road. If I can find the link I’ll post it.
Go for it. If they did, I’m not surprised.
They make me sad. I used to admire them, especially Altuve. Those days are gone.
bleacherreport.com/articles/2875319-astros-use-of-codebreaker-in-cheating-scandal-detailed-in-new-wsj-report
It’s perfectly acceptable and understandable to no longer admire Altuve. The Dodgers fan I interact with at work fell off the Cowboys wagon when Michael Irvin got in trouble and it was swept under the rug. He became fan again thanks to Romo (who is the second best QB of all time, according to him, second only to Montana) . He hates Dak so he fell off again. Obviously not the quite the same but hopefully you get what I’m trying to say.
Sorry, Bhambrave, but your article doesn’t mention anything about them on the road. That’s not to say they didn’t do something or try to do something on the road because I’m sure they did.
Granted this is just a report of a report, and we should check out the WSJ article for the details, but it did mention “Diamond noted the use of Codebreaker extended to road games as well as home contests.”.
I missed that part. Whoops. My bad.
Easy to miss, nestled in like it was.
Found it. I still think LA had a very good chance. They were really good that year. I’m expecting them or the Yankees to win it this year.
I do. I’m a height-challenged guy, so I “looked up” to Altuve. I know he’s a great player, but the sheen has worn off some.
Not if Marwan Gonzalez knew a fastball was coming when he hit the game tying homer run.
goastros123, Dodgers also had a chance to go up 3-2 in game 5 and lost despite scoring 12 runs… hmm, where was that one played?
That’s fair, Bluemarlin528.
Math, that was at Minute Maid Park obviously. I’m not surw what the point of your question.
Really? You were claiming that they are only proven to have cheated at home, and that the Dodgers could still have won at home in game 6 if they hadn’t lost game 2… and you don’t see my point? Really any kind of if-thens regarding that series are totally moot at this point especially from a Houston fan.
Just stop.
Telling goastros to stop. He is beginning to sound less than bright
Math, they were initially investigated for for using center field cameras to steal signs. I had yet to read the article Bhambrave linked. Asking me where game 5 was held was pointless. No, I did not see your point at all. Lol. Just so you know, the Dodgers won a game at Houston and won two in LA. You’d think Houston would’ve swept them instead of it going to 7. I can think about what-ifs all I want. Being an Astros fan has no bearing on that.
Fox471, good for you.
I’d just add, knowing what pitch is coming is a MAJOR advantage, not slight.
This cheating crap with the Asteriks has me agreeing with a Giant fan.
This is what the world has become.
All y’all? Who talks like that?
Usually preceded by an expletive of 4 letters **** All Y’all Haters…
Garbage human right here
how long did it take you to think of this comment? did you press the submit button on the third or fourth bang from the trashcan?
cause that reasonable or possible
And the Beltran niece burner account makes more sense now.
That was Beltran telling the world that he will reveal the rampant use of technology to cheat if anyone pin points his central role.
Now just wait for him (or his niece, if you believe that crap) to make buzzer related evidence available to the public.
I expect the Yankees are massively guilty too and that is why they hasn’t made any real stink about being robbed.
A couple of Yankees players have come out and said they were robbed. However, it’s mostly been their fans making a stink and understandably so.
@goastros123 only a couple players here and there across the entire league have violated the commissioner’s gag order. I’m not sure how that supports your wild unsubstantiated accusations about the Yankees.
I never accused the Yankees of anything. Tanaka was asked if he thinks the Astros cheated his team out of the World Series and he basically said yes. CC, granted a retired now, said the same thing. That’s how it supports my “wild unsubstantial accusations”. Could I have phrased it better? Sure. However, I’m not wrong.
Unfortunately they just can’t. Beltran will be the hardest hit here even though there’s no official punishment. He’s lost his managerial gig I’m sure never to find another. If the HOF voters have kept proven and highly suspected roid users out I expect him to receive similar treatment. I loved him as a Cardinal and he’s been highly respected everywhere he’s been. Enough to be hired as a manager almost immediately after retirement with no experience. That reputation has done a 180. He’s now seen as the lowest of the low. His life in baseball is done. I think Luhnow has a better chance of some type of role in a FO than Beltran. He and Cora are done.
This is a whole lotta of nothing made into something. All teams do something to get an edge. Teams should be careful what they wish for,because if MLB actually looked into this deeper,they would find more teams in the wrong. Can’t wait to see the Astros “steamroll” the AL again and put this nonsense to rest. I would hire Luhnow and Hinch if I owhed a team.
Whole lotta Everything. The crazy thing is that Asterikfan is actually gloating.
It has been proven without a doubt, your team commited the worst kind of cheating in the last 100 years of baseball. Between making Chinese eyes after hitting a homerun, signing a wife abuser and then having an executive rub that fact into female reporters faces, on top of cheatind, the Astericks are the grossest team in orginized sport. Their teams are garbage, their fans are garbage.
2017 World Series, Altuve’s MVP, Bregman’s World Series MVP and Yordan Alvarez ROY should all be stripped. I know it’s wishful thinking and will never happen. What a garbage organization.
Garbage organization? What organization had an employee serve time in prison for cheating? What team was that again? What team has the former hitting coach on their bench from this garbage organization? What team is that again?
Sorry bro, no matter how you try to spin your story. Nothing can come close to what your crappy Astros pulled. Nothing!
@Maurice lock Sorry bro, no matter how you try to spin your story. Nothing can come close to what your crappy Astros pulled. Nothing!
Garbage team and garbage fans deserve each other. “What about” isn’t an argument. Doesn’t change the fact that your garbage team cheated.
Part of me wants people to stop talking about this and part of me never wants people to stop
Till they lower the banner- they won’t be stripped but can easily not display the BS banner- no one should stop talking about it
Too bad the biggest cheaters in 100 years don’t like it
Get real, they’re not going to lower the banner. Nor should they.
I’m with you. Tired of hearing about it and the dark cloud it brings to baseball.
But these guys deserve to be publicly called out for what they did, the true extent needs to be known, and every story makes them look so much worse.
Such a good observation. Was just thinking myself that this sign stealing scandal is oddly good for baseball as it brings not just disgust and disgrace but attention and intrigue to the game as well. (By no means am I saying this should be how the game more generally goes about getting its attention but for now it draws national attention.) Very compelling story overall.
McGuire, Sosa, and Bonds saved this game when a work stoppage and the rise of soccer challenged MLB’s relevancy.
Lol. The rise of soccer? They had zero chance of challenging the sport of baseball in America.
“the rise of soccer”. LOL. I’ve read it all now.
Yawn at this point. Everyone has done it. The Astros were just better at it. The Dodgers just traded for a known cheater in Betts! (Apple Watch scandal ring a bell?). Y’all about ACTUALLY wearing a buzzer!
Mookie cheated?
Mookie cheated?
Yankees should be upset that they aren’t even good at cheating.
Actually there’s only one team that has done this as far as we know. Stop spreading this lie.
Everyone has not done it. Seriously, what’s wrong with you people?
Thinking “everyone does it” is just a typical, lazy response to any unethical or immoral behavior. You see it everywhere, including politics and everything else. It’s just lazy, nothing else.
Amen!
Yes!!! Love this. Lazy Susans use “everyone knows” as well. Really? Could that ever be proven to be factual?
People are saying every one does it because it was stated other teams do it too. Sure at this point there’s no evidence for it, but MLB doesn’t want evidence for it to come out.
@goastros123 It was stated that most or all teams steal signs. Stealing signs is not illegal. And incidentally that is not why the Astros got in trouble. When is that going to get through your thick head?
@Beisbolista, it was basically stated other teams are up to no good. I’m simply pointing out why people say “other teams do it too”.
Beisbolista beating the dead horse as usual. He’ll be typing in responses all night so he can get the last word in. And whoever disagrees with him will be told they have a thick head.
@BuzzedCapra You realize the logical flaw in commenting on a breaking news article containing groundbreaking new facts and calling the subject matter a dead horse, right? Or is your head actually too thick to make that connection. I will be up late if you want to further educate yourself on this chain.
Astros logic – sure I’m a murderer but everybody drives over the speed limit occasionally. We all commit crimes get over it.
Pretty sure that was Astro product Alex Cora there dumba**
The Pirates don’t cheat. I’d bet on it.
I’d guess the Orioles are clean too.
You mean it wasn’t just a coincidence Betts put up his best career numbers in 2018? I’m going to have to ask 2017 Marwin Gonzalez about this.
HalosHeaven…. You are saying that putting up good numbers means you cheated to do it? Trout must be one heck of a cheater
Actually, now that you mention it, HGH is a huge and unfair advantage for Trout.
Of course you know he doesn’t use that. Nice try.
He doesn’t do it and even if he did, it can’t tell him when a fastball is coming.
Funny I don’t recall that MLB press release stating everyone cheats so extensively that it could destroy the integrity of the game but we are only going to punish Houston. And then the Houston owner, knowing everyone cheats, just went along with the punishment and cut the check. Yeah I buy that logic. You’re a flat earther aren’t you? Come on you can admit it to your friends here.
They’re clearly not the best at it if they are the only ones who got caught….
Everyone tries to steal signs. But if a runner on 2nd base figures something out and finds a way to alert the batter, that’s just savvy ballplaying. Center field cameras, closed circuit clubhouse feeds and other inappropriate use of technology is cheating.
Astros should forfeit the 2017 title and MLB should declare the Dodgers the champs for that year.
Dodgers didn’t earn it any more than Houston did, so no, they shouldn’t be given a championship. Besides, so many people have talked about how no one will recognize it as a real championship. If that’s the case, there’s no need to take it away or give it up. It changes nothing.
what are you smoking? do you honestly think they will declare the dodgers champions?, I don’t understand your nuance of oh stealing signs this way is ok, but doing it this way is so wrong they should be stripped of their WS title, it is ridiculous
lfc, if we’re playing poker and I’m careless with my cards and you see them, that’s my fault and you didn’t cheat. If I’m not careless, but you secretly set up a guy behind me with a camera and he’s telling you what my cards are, that’s horseshit and I’m gonna kick your ass to get back the money you’re stealing. You really don’t understand the “nuance” of that?
Good analogy math! But an Astros fan would claim everyone who plays cards would have a secret camera so it’s ok.
Or, who cares? Sure we used a hidden camera but we won.
You can’t give anyone a championship. I can see the argument for taking it from the Astros but I’m still not in favor of that.
Way to lob that out there without any proof.
What do y’all think about Beltran’s HOF chances?
Not good unfortunately
As good as rose and Braun at this point…..
I think Rose has better odds.
I wonder if he’d take that bet?
lol well done
You can bet on it.
Rose is a pedophile. He has less of a chance than Mike Bolsinger
better yet. what do you think of Altuvas HOF chances? I’d say no way he or any of the other cheaters should get in.
I wouldn’t vote for him
goodbye
Lmao. He’s a HOF. He did this literally last couple seasons of his career. He was already a HOF player before this happened. This hasnt changed that. He may wait a year or 2 but he will get in.
you could say the exact same thing of bonds and Clemens in regards to PEDS, should they be HOF as well?
Two words – Pete Rose.
4 syllables: pedophile
4?
Lol. Glad I am not the only one that saw that.
Beltran will be lucky if he isn’t banned from the HOF as a tourist. No way BBWA votes him in based on his pivotal role in this scandal. He was the driver – he made it happen.
ya but there were other teams doing the same thing so that will come out eventually. This sucks but at least now when I go to a game I know it has been dealt with.
No other team has done this as far as we know. You can speculate about the future but don’t lie about the present.
Come on, man. Where there is smoke there is fire. Just like PEDs not being only one player, it isn’t just the Astros doing this. Manfred has screwed this up royally.
That’s a bs lie, stop spreading it
I would be open to considering that in this hyper-competitive atmosphere that the Astros were not alone, that other teams would’ve likely had their own versions of this
It doesn’t surprise me that McCann was against it. He’s always had class.
Since he’s physically blocked a player from stepping on home plate for bat flipping, you’d think he’d be able to make a stronger stand against this cheating. Being that trash can banging happened during his ABs, sounds more like he initially was hesitant but didn’t really put up much of a fight. I get the young guys rolling with it, but established vets like McCann, Verlander, Reddick should have stomped this years ago. I do not feel like they should get a pass.
You’d hope so. It was his first year with the Astros, but it was Beltran’s first also. He could have pushed harder, but if the front office supported it, maybe he didn’t feel confident in bucking the system. We don’t know.
no one stomped it out because it was above them. this wasnt a player thing, it was on the FA (and Beltran)
Do you mean FO?
Except that time he was a bit racist and a jacka**, yeah!
Yet McCann (who had no problem bullying young players like Jose Fernandez in 2013), Verlander, and every other veteran on that team lacked the balls to stand up to Beltran.
“McCann has class” give me a friggin’ break.
Bullying? It’s called policing the game and trying keep past standards. What a moronic take
So a pitcher admiring the first home run he hit in his career is bad for the game, but a veteran standing by and not doing more to stop another veteran from cheating is good for the game?
Talk about moronic takes.
“he always had class….” My idea of class doesn’t cheat, period. He was at bat in several of the vids where I heard the trash can. Class wouldn’t have allowed that to stand, wouldn’t have allowed that foolishness through the door.
The report from other players was that he didn’t participate and spoke out against it internally. What else could he do within the culture of the clubhouse?
Brian McCann bullied Jose Fernandez and Carlos Gomez for “breaking the unwritten rules”, but when it came to Carlos Beltran breaking the written rules, “there was nothing he could do.” Probably because when it comes to acting like sergeant of the Baseball Police, he’s just as incompetent and corrupt as Chief Wiggum.
Altuve had less “bangs” in 2017 than McCann if I remember right. I think it’s pretty obvious based on the evidence that certain position players weren’t doing it (mainly Altuve, Reddick, and McCann).
What’s the likelihood Beltran only cheated in his final season?
When he had a manager who was his peer and not his senior and an organization that was willing to systematize his cheating? Pretty high
Oh man this is the best one yet man. The crow this post is going to reek of.
We are basically only talking about Beltran’s Astros years anyway. The Yankees were investigated before 2017 and the only violation they were charged with was an illegal phone in the dugout. So the post seems pretty supportable unless we later find out the guy was on steroids or something.
Like you do realize a former teammate of Beltran came out and said they stole signs when they were on the Yankees, right? Or was it ok then?
Stealing signs isn’t illegal and that’s not what the Astros got in trouble for. When are you going to get that through your thick head?
If I told you the Yankees and the Red Sox did the exact same thing as the Astros, only starting in 2014, before it was illegal, does that change your mind? Because that’s (from an unnamed source) what the MLB investigation found. It obviously wasn’t to this scale, but players were using the replay room to get signs and relay the. Beltran clearly didn’t just pick this up in Houston. That’s naive to think. To say it’s a “pretty high” chance it’s the only place where they cheated proves you’re the one with the thick head.
You can’t just pick and choose which parts of the investigation to look at and use.
For reference this is what im talking about. This was before the investigations in 2017 and what led to the 2017 league wide memo going out. This is when the rules changed and it became illegal to decode in real time with tech.
“Multiple sources told SNY that Young was a leader of what became the Red Sox Apple Watch scheme in 2017. One eyewitness laid out how it worked: Early in the season, Young gathered teammates and taught them how to decode a catcher’s sequences. This served as a team-bonding exercise, and many Red Sox got into it. … As the source put it, “When Young went to Boston, the Red Sox took what the Yankees were doing, which was legal, and basically put it on steroids.” The “steroids” in this case were not performance-enhancing drugs, but an Apple Watch that took the process to another level.”
You just have to stop acting like this isnt a widespread issue. The Astros are clearly the bad guys here and probably crossed the line more then anybody else. But to go around and say people are lying, when they clearly are not isnt proving anything.
You’re aware that the Red Sox incident you cited is the reason why the commissioner made the rule in the first place right? You’re aware that the Red Sox were investigated and punished for that? As for earlier allegations than that, it is not cheating if it is not against the rules.
So what you are saying is we should punish players for rules that are not in place yet?
And the Yankees were also fined that year too btw.
Going back Oakland A’s notified MLB that the Astros were cheating in 2017. midseason after their pitchers got roughed up in a crucial series. MLB came back and said nothing was going on. The question is did MLB even investigated back in 2017 season? So without a reporter bringing it out in the open this offseason it would still be going on and MLB officials would be looking the other way.
Yes that my point. I’m just saying you’re wrong when you said Beltran picked this up only when he went to Houston. He was on teams that decoded signs in real time which would’ve been illegal today. He didn’t just invent this system the moment it became illegal.
it wasn’t his idea to start, so probably higher than you think
As believable as it was when Arod said he only cheated in Texas and stopped when he went to New York.
They cheat bigger in Texas.
Jankymetrics.
Does anyone else think MLB floated the new playoff proposal yesterday to get heat off them for the WSJ article last Friday, saying the Astros sign stealing was starting in 2016, and that the front office initiated it, not “player driven” like the Manfred report had us believing??
no, not really. i wouldnt read that much into it.
Does this explain all the hrs from the “juiced” ball???
If so I think more than two teams were doing it.
Um no. It probably explains some of the Astros home runs. But MLB has admitted that the baseball was actually juiced.
Just explains why Houston hitter were able to lay off breaking balls then swing from their heels against fastballs.
Who was in charge in 2016?
Same people
And the code breaker article implies they cheated pre-2017, doing the scouting of the signs, and put it into games in May 2017
But yeah more confirmation is just more dirt in Manfred covering it up “only 2017” and Houston
From what I understand the codebreaker stuff was legal.
All teams aren’t cheating like this. If you think this you’re delusional. I wouldnt be surprised if more teams steal the decoding of signs, but they still have to get a man on second base to actually steal it (which I hope no one actually thinks sign stealing while on 2nd is even remotely cheating, when no use of technology is involved), which is not always easy when you’re on base, looking through an umpire, pitcher, and trying to get a lead. What the Astros did was steal the sign and either heard the pitch through the bang, or used a buzzer to relay the sign to the batter. That’s cheating to the next level and they should be punished, even more so than they have been.
can you explain what the difference is? sign stealing is either cheating or it isn’t, I don’t get how you are arguing for such a nuanced position, I don’t see the degrees of cheating you are seeing, and if you think the Astros are the only team doing this, you are probably wrong, they are the scapegoats who got caught
Stealing signs is not cheating. Using electronic devices to disseminate information to facilitate sign stealing is. Surly you grasp that beating trash cans and wearing buzzers to relay that information to the batter with no one on base is cheating?
I saw AJs interview n he was lying. All he regrets is getting caught.
Even without the black mark of “cheater” on his resume, Carlos Beltran is not a hall of famer.
“It was a big open secret, really big. Throughout baseball ….”
…because there is some unwritten rule that effectively condones these actions?
This isn’t on one or two teams.
There’s a code in baseball. Don’t whine.
Not because it is condoned but because there is a huge stigma on players who rat out other players. See the treatment of Fiers
And Canseco.
I hope Clevenger follows through and aims a cutter inside at Altuve and about 4 feet high (which is about shoulder level on mini-man).
Mini-man! Get’s plunked right in the buzzer, creating an electric shock, jersey starts on fire, mini-man refuses to take it off claims everything was on the level!
that’s called assault
That’s called justice, baseball style.
Ask Nolan Ryan, Mr. Texas, if that’s assault lmfao
It’s called assault to those who are weak.
The story that keeps on giving. ‘Through 2019’… I’ve said this before in other threads, but they cheat and get rings in ‘17, why would they stop? Wait, they didn’t.
i heard they cheated in 2020 too…wait
Id hate to be a player in the Houston system
“Other people were doing it” is rarely a good defense against wrongdoing.
Lighten up, a lot of people murder each other!
“It’s not murder” is rarely a good defense against wrongdoing…other than perhaps murder.
Also, other than at the end of Reservoir Dogs, it’s rare for people to “murder each other” since they have to simultaneously inflict fatal wounds.
Manfred needs to go
Whatever, which JD is the GOAT?
What’s going to be the response IF the Astros win their division this year (according to projections) and just happen to get lucky/hot in the playoffs (any team can make a run)?
Doesn’t change 2017-2019? Derp
Houston will lead the league in HBPs.
My issue is that for a brief period after playing for the Yankees, he played with the Rangers before going to Houston. Are they connected? I sure hope not.
When is MLB going to release more rules governing video equipment? The new rules discussed last year need to be implemented, now. Broadcast video feeds only from outfield pole to pole during games and have the baseball operations officer sign a statement their team is aware of video rules and in compliance.
There should be more defined punishment including players, as well. Defining the player punishments may have to wait for the next CBA. It’s amazing that the majority denied illegal sign stealing earlier on. It’s odd that even Brian McCann repeatedly denied any team cheating to reporters and apparently had some qualms about it in the clubhouse. There is definitely an effort to deceive the press and public and it seems there is quite a few players and fans having trouble seeing rules and ethics violations and abuse.
Change ‘pole to pole’ to ‘pole dancers’ and I’m in total agreement with you.
This is absolutely going to ruin most baseball discussions. Now, every time any player or team is on fire, you’re gonna have the idiots that want to say it’s because they’re stealing signs and cheating. That’s not going to be annoying at all.
This is one of the reasons the Cardinals kicked them out of the NL central division after 2012, they have known for years. We’ll done Cards, years ahead as usual.
Says the team that was caught stealing scouting I formation from the Astros. That is rich…
A single rogue executive hacking a player database is not equivalent to an entire organization developing a cheating method to be used in order to make the playoffs and also during the playoffs.
A couple of months ago, I posted on this site and I had commented about Carlos Beltran. I said that I happen to know a young man who played for the Yankees (he spent a full summer with the team) back when Carlos Beltran was a Yankee. When I asked my friend’s impression of certain Yankees, there was only one surprise among his comments. He told me that A-Rod treated him well and bought him a nice suit; Brett Gardner treated all the rookies very well; Mark Tiexeira was kind of a jerk; and the surprise was his comments about Beltran, who has a reputation for being a very positive clubhouse presence, but my friend’s impression was Beltran was a jerk who would not respect or listen to any players that were not Latino. He simply didn’t speak to any white players at all. My friend said in his opinion, Beltran divided the team but would take credit for uniting it because reporters always saw him talking to groups of Latin players- perhaps they didn’t notice that he only talked to them and nobody else on the team. I was attacked for posting this in the past- everything from being accused of making up the whole thing because I’m not giving the former Yankee’s name, to people who insist Beltran’s reputation is solid. Well, after reading that Beltran was asked by Brian McCann to stop the sign-stealing nonsense and just ignored him, I can’t say I’m surprised.
jim crane is going to have a full roster meeting wednesday to discuss strategy amid scandal. his message would be “don’t get caught!”
OMG! Someone cheated in baseball?! It’s not like hundreds of players used steroids or anything. Stupid thread, catch cheaters, punish them, move on. If you know someone is cheating, use it against them and win. If the Nats could figure it out the Dodgers could have too
many of dodgers players have warned nats players according to an espn article. that’s why they were ready.
Geez you internet jurors really boggle my mind…
“Strip them of their title”
“Your team cheated to win but mine didn’t”
It’s great in theory y’all, but I’m gonna be a bit more realistic. All of our teams try to gain a competitive advantage that would be publicly considered cheating by the masses. I’m not condoning the cheating (at least not intentionally), and I want to remind everyone you’re delusional if you really believe your team hasn’t done their part in cheating. Some teams are just better at keeping it in house. So we can keep chopping up the Astros and the Red Sox (next), or we can point to the Yankees buying 27 championships or whatever. None of us are going to stop loving our respective teams. Sure, baseball should try to do something to stop the cheating so these overpaid millionaires can go back to the drawing board and find new ways to cheat. I would really just love to see the fans of my favorite sport stop pretending it’s one or two teams and be honest about the highly likely reality that their team have dirt on their hands, too. The good news about the cheating… the Yankees got screwed in the deal. Let’s all rejoice and move to the next phase of code breaking.
LOL at this hilariously deranged comment. Putting salary spending (not cheating and totally in line with the rules) is freaking laughable. Putting line blurring in the same sentence as what the Astros did is also so detached from reality that it really begs the question as to whether you are well. Let’s not forget… With regard to this specific conduct, the Commissioner sent a very clear memo stating that this was exact conduct is illegal and would be met with stiff punishment… Weeks before the Astros continued to carry it out in an amazingly systematized and blatant manner.
“The good news about the cheating”?????
You are a joke.
Thank you Beisbolista. I pride myself on being a joke. Laughter is very soothing to soul. I would argue, to you and Yu, that none of the teams as a collective whole are honest. I felt I made my point quite clearly, that they are all cheating. Some get caught, some don’t. I’m sure there are layers of protection from the league for special teams where we will never get wind of those (dis)respectful teams involvement in breaking the rules. Just take a step down off your high horse please. Read words and understand them as they are presented. None of the hateful nozzles on this thread or anywhere for that matter will stop me from loving the team I grew up loving with the people of my life who actually matter to me. Your endeavor is just hateful and pointless. What you get from trolling someone’s stance on the matter and TRYING to spew derogatory angst baffles my mind. I hope you find a way through it. Go get a hug from someone you love. Try to feel better about your life. It’s not so bad, it’ll be ok.
I’d much rather take the Evil Empire, who played the game right, over the Trashstros. If your “bright side” to the cheating is that a team with dedicated and honest players, who worked hard all season to make it to the playoffs, got screwed out of a shot to play in the World Series (twice, apparently), then you’re not a baseball fan. You’re scum.
Time to get out of your feelings, No Soup For Yu!. Calling me scum and saying a whole fanbase has no morals just because they support their team and the title means you’re deep in them.
Strange. I don’t seem to remember calling you scum at all. After all, you’re not RobBoSoxNMariners, are you? Oh wait I get it. That’s probably one of your numerous sock puppet accounts that you use to agree with and upvote your own posts, and when you transferred to this one you forgot which account you were logged into. As for calling “you” scum, that’s how I’d define anyone who supports cheaters and is glad honest players got screwed over. And if you continue to blindly support the Trashstros and a dishonestly earned title, so much so that you create multiple accounts to shill for your team to make it seem like your opinion matters, you’re the one who is “deep in your feelings.” Turns out Astros fans are arrogant too. No real surprise there.
Hey baby, calm down.. or don’t. I really don’t care about you or your opinion of me. I’ll go on believing I’m a genuine fan of baseball and your hate driven words won’t even enter into my mind again at a certain point. I may be scum to you, and that’s fine, pumpkin. I don’t live for you. I’ve made my points, oh and I’m sure you are wrong about numerous things in your life.. but just to make sure you know you are wrong.. I have no clue who goastros is, I only have one account, I barely post because of negative people like you who hide behind a screen taking personal shots at people for their opinion. I may be scum, sweetie, but you are on a totally different level of gross. Oh also, I know you’re a guy, and I’m a guy, and I’m straight, and I sense you “are too” but I just wanted to brighten your day with comfort words like pumpkin and sweetie. Looking out for ya, doll. *kisses*
So your go to response is to admit you’re scum, and then insinuate that I’m gay while using words like “pumpkin, sweetie and doll,” as though it makes you morally superior or something? Hard to believe Astros fans could be even more classless, but here we are.
Weird takeaway, Yu. That’s cool, this is obviously a waste of my time and doesn’t interest me at all. I wish you the best.
You caught me. I’m definitely RobBoSoxNMariners. Lol.
The system the Astros used came there from the Yankees via Beltran. A system the Yankees used in 2015, 2016 and were caught using in Sept 2017.
Pay attention.
Anytime someone types “y’all”, I stop reading. There is no excuse for being Ignorant.
Holy crap you are so funny! I think I get it completely. I’m never going to type that again, I didn’t even realize how ignorant it made me look! Thank you! I’ll make it up to y’all.
PB, well someone was sitting in the front row in English class.
Gimme (is that a trigger too?) a break.
This Northerner went to college in Virginia and found the term “y’all” humorous early in my freshman year. I now use the term somewhat regularly.
It’s a figure of speech, lighten up Francis.
Flags fly forever!!!!
Jared Diamond is a damn fine writer. Guns Germs and Steel is one of the most interesting books I’ve ever read.
“Flags fly forever.”
There isn’t another phrase that so perfectly illustrates that it’s not only the Astros team that’s morally bankrupt, it’s the fanbase as well.
It’s like Photoshopping your face onto a Time Magazine and declaring yourself the Person of the Year.
If it makes you feel good to brag about it, so be it.
Everyone else knows it’s bull.
That flag is a kite. Means nothing. Let it blow in the wind.
The little man is pushing his luck. COME BACK 1 YEAR!!!!
“Flags fly forever.”
There isn’t any other phrase that so perfectly illustrates how it’s not only the Astros team that’s morally bankrupt, it’s the fanbase as well.
Question Astros_fan_84…
Do you want the Astros to keep cheating?
Question Melkor:
Do you think the Astros will stop cheating?
Follow up question:
Do you think any team in the Major Leagues will stop cheating?
Astros – yes, at least this year
The rest – doubtful
Beltran needs to write a book titled “Suck it, B’s”
I’d read it.
It is amazing how well you can hit the ball when you know which pitch is coming. Maybe this should become a rule in MLB to improve the offense numbers.
I always loved Beltran, but that guy’s finished and I have no respect for him whatsoever anymore. Houston should not be permitted to fly a championship banner, period. The title needs to be vacated and we all need to move on if MLB isn’t going to suspend the players involved.
It’s like being an accessory to a crime. You still go to prison even though you didn’t come up with the idea because you were there and you participated. You just don’t stay there as long as the person/people who orchestrated it. One year suspensions for every on the Astros’ roster for the last three seasons, lifetime bans for those who cooked up the idea in the first place.
Phew, that’ll stop cheating in baseball
Managers and GMs losing their jobs will stop cheating in baseball. Teams losing multiple first round draft choices will stop cheating in baseball. If need be, future players getting long suspensions will stop cheating in baseball.
Either the league cleans it up or the league becomes a joke. The Tour de France became a joke, baseball is on thin ice.
Beltran brought the system from the Yankees to the Astros. How do you feel about the Yankees?
^^^ best commenter on this thread
I don’t think they can, or will, strip the title, but the Astr*s ought to be banned from accessing the postseason for a minimum of 1 year.
To be clear: The Yankees were formally accused of cheating by way of their owned TV network to steal signs in 2017 and possibly prior. The commissioner said the evidence was insufficient – at that time – to invoke penalties. Maybe he was right and was thorough in that investigation. Maybe he wasn’t. Maybe another Mike Fiers will come forward. Because, see, the commissioner said the same regarding Astros cheating and everyone’s beloved buzzer allegations in 2019. Insufficient evidence. You can’t have it both ways, and I’d be wary of where this rabbit hole ultimately goes, to fans of many teams.
The Commissioner fined the Yankees and Red Sox for using a electronic sign stealing in September 2017 and the Yankees and the Red Sox being caught is why he sent out a memo on September 15th of that year to all the teams about it.
The commissioner in the most recent investigation found that there was no evidence that 8 other teams used a similar system AFTER that memo was sent, but that they had been among 10-12 teams that had been reported for using a live feed to relay signs in real time to the batter from the dugout earlier in the 2017 season.
I think it would be a solid burn if every AL ball park with a flag pole, ran the Astros 2017 championship pennant at half mast for the season.
Makes me wonder why Hudgens still has a job MLB.
This is grotesque. Strip the title. Strip the Commissionership.
This is a purge and about face by MLB. Astros are taking the medicine for the whole sport. Teams will gain any advantage possible and i am certain that all teams were doing this on some level for some time now. The huge backlash is probably to please the powers that be in the sports gambling industry that is becoming closely tied to the big 4. There will be pressure to remove any uncertain outcomes and unethical practices within the game to keep the money flowing.
get real!
Extremely intelligent point Eephus. Ignore the trolls who think they know everything. You are in touch with reality and will be slammed for it, but I support your position.
Sorry Robo and Eephus, but taking the easy way out and claiming that everyone does it is lame and intellectually lazy. Cheating AND gambling are innate threats to baseball. And, speaking as a Reds fan, Pete Rose is a scumbag who should never be admitted to the HOF.
It’s cool Earm.. believe what you’d like. No need to apologize. I find ambivalence to be quite intelligent, especially in situations where it is difficult through impossible to discern the truth. I completely disagree that Pete Rose should never be admitted in to the HoF as a player for things he did as a manager. It’s so sad to have the greatest hitter ever to have played the game stricken from the record based on a character flaw.
Don’t think Beltran is a Hall of Famer but stranger things have happened.
Beltrash, unanimous choice for cheating hall of fame
Manford and MLB blew their chance to win the confidence of the fans. From the beginning fans were unhappy with the punishments handed out and now as more and more information leaks out they’re even more unhappy. At first I didn’t think the Astros needed to forfeit their WS win, but now I do.
I just read another article where 10-12 teams complained to MLB about this. Manford needs to be fired immediately.
Fans were always going to be unhappy because of some them had unrealistic expectations for punishment.
Yup, and this is exactly where we are these days. Expect justice = unrealistic expectations.
Unless by some miracle this was confined to the Astros, Manfred should go. He is covering something up. The league CLEARLY wanted this to go away, so they minimized it as much as possible.
If this was such a gross offense, the players should have been suspended. I am sick of people taking pot shots at the players union over this. If the union backed 15 known cheaters and went to the mat for them, they would be foolish and stupid.
I also think Houston should trade and cut the worst offenders at this point. The staff in the FO who knew, gone. They need to clean house, you can’t let this linger. Even if they won it all this year, it will never take the stink off.
I also want to point out how nutless a group of men could be in the face of some egotistical crank like Beltran.
If, IF, IF there was a deeper, more league wide cheating thing going on, the league doesn’t want anyone to know. If there was, I got no problem with what the team was doing. It is shady, but whatever. If this was however, confined to an arrogant FO and rogue team, then they should face more scrutiny and punishment.
As far as the Red Sox and Yankees go, be careful. Your teams, if they cheated, will be found out. If I were a sports reporter within shouting distance of any major league or high minors team, I would be up one side and down the other trying to break the next story on another team’s cheating program. Those stories will come out, if they exist.
The truth always eventually comes out.
I am still waiting for the truth to come out about Altuve and what was under his shirt. It may not have been abuser but what was it. I believe it will come out before this is all done. Commissioner office may already know, we need to find out.
Hank Aaron, who knows what it is like to be cheated *we’re looking at you Barry*, has stated that the Houston players involved should be banned from baseball.
Except sleazy Manfred already gave them immunity. But he did not for their buzzer stunt.
That tiny little joke of a man Altuve should be banned for that nonsense.
Correct – immunity for ‘17, not ‘18 or ‘19…
And as an aside, if a material witness strikes a deal with a Prosecutor they must tell ALL of the truth, they can’t even lie by omission, or the deal is forfeit.
There is no buzzer stunt. It’s proven. Look at all the other players from other teams with the same “bump” in their uniforms.
McCann told him to stop… LOL. McCann helped the system that they brought from the Yankees. We already know that.
McCann did? Link?
Every team, coach and player cheats at some point in their career to get ahead its human nature to do so, not just in sports, but in the work force. Please don’t be ignorant and think that human don’t cheat they all do so who cares really!!!
Seems like you just admitted you’re a cheater. Guess what? Not all of us are.
What a horrible take. I weep for the people in your orbit.
He admitted you’re a cheater too
And you, are you?
You’re seriously okay with this?
Have I cheated? Yep. You have too.. somewhere you cheated at something, likely many times. Am I ok with him pointing that out? Yep. Am I ok with baseball teams cheating? It’s not my job to catch them or punish them so.. no I’m not ok with it and I realize my choices are to deal with it or stop watching baseball. I’m not got to stop watching baseball.
A) Resist the bad parts of human nature and strive to be better.
B) Revel in being a piece of ____ like a pig in the mud.
Good people choose A).
Good people cut other good people off on the roads, or speed, or smoke weed, or drink too much.
Most people don’t have millions of dollars a year on the line to produce year in and year out. Who are you to judge them?
Luckily for the law abiding society doesn’t work that way. I suppose you’ll ask me to read Hobbes next. No thanks, an Aristotelian here.
So you are saying you have never lied or sped or broken any laws? You have never taken a pen or a paper clip or a yellow pad home from work? You have never stolen from your company by making a photocopy of something personal?
I call BS on that.
Me too
So what? If you’re caught, you pay the consequences. If there are no consequences, then you have anarchy. Do you give your kids consequences for bad behavior? I’d hope so for their sake.
I can see why MLBTRADERUMORS sometimes closes stories to comments. Especially on this scandal, things can get nasty. But stripping titles is not going to happen.. If that were on the table, it would have already been done. Plus, it would mean the 2017 WS winner would be vacant, it would not be awarded to the Dodgers. This is not the NCAA where their only choice is often to punish the school involved. MLB is different. It can punish those involved in a number of ways. They choose to give players immunity to get their cooperation, to get the whole story. Happens in the criminal justice system all the time.
My one hope is that MLB uses this scandal to allow teams to use technology to signal pitches. If an NFL QB can wear a headset in his helmet and get plays radioed to him then MLB can figure out a way to use technology to call pitches as well. Who knows, might actually speed up the game.
I say give the 2017 title to the 1919 White Sox
Remember this baseball commissioner ! Not one of those cheaters from Houston and Boston come close to making the hall of fame down the road .
And the Yankees – they cheated too and it has come to light they cheated.. as usual
Yes, stealing signs has been around forever. So much so that signals increased in complexity over the years (and trying to remember them as a player was harder than memorizing a football playbook)
So what?
The (proven) fact that stealing evolved beyond a runner on 2B (or 1B/3B coaches) looking at the Catcher’s signs or studying Pitchers for tips in their delivery into using technology to read AND relay that information is stunningly lumped into “every team has done it”
queue Mom: “If your friends jumped off a roof …?”
… but that’s actually not my real issue at this point
What blows my mind is that the players were not punished.
Yeah, manager/coaches/organization having knowledge … Hell, even condoning it … is bad enough; but to only come down on them while letting the actual perpetrators not only get a free pass but to retain the substantial benefits of their actions?
That is the supreme and most pathetic joke of this entire “scandal”
Pitchers work for years on not tipping their pitches … on disguising their pitch type by, for example, developing different deliveries for the same pitch.
Using loopholes in the Rules to circumvent dedication like that should never go unpunished. A “dark cloud going forward” is nothing more than a mild inconvenience for someone who’s collected millions and a WS ring.
Hey, if Shoeless Joe had to suffer punishment for the actions of several of this teammates … ijs
Shoeless Joe was on a team that took a dive. Purposely losing for money is slightly different than illegally stealing signs to win. Not condoning what the astros did either but to compare the 2 is asinine. As far as not punishing the players? The baseball players union is the strongest union in America. And Manfred knew punishing them would be very difficult and make the investigation drag on for months while not guaranteeing the players cooperation.
I agree that the players who took a dive deserve to be punished – likewise, the Astro players who cheated –
Shoeless Joe batted .375 – doesn’t seem that he took a dive – I guess he had the misfortune of not having a strong union to plead his case.
It was stated on the XM-MLB channel that Marwin Gonzalez has apologized for the sign stealing scandal. It was also mentioned that the Houston owner is going to have the players apologize. I haven’t seen any verification anywhere else, yet. Time will tell.
“We’re so focused on them cheating, we’re forgetting we have to just go out and play,” one Yankees official said before the series, which the Astros ultimately won in six games.
Good thing the Nats didn’t forget. Yankees officials begging for sympathy is always priceless.
Very convenient that this scout comes out now and “always knew”. If everyone knew then how come no one reported it to the commissioner? How did the Astros get an advantage if everyone knew what they were doing? This is really a pathetic comment from this scout.
This was brought to the attention of the commissioners office dozens of times and nothing happened. This is very well documented. In almost every article on the subject. Fiers claims he tried to a few times himself, which fell upon deaf ears, until he went to the press.
How can you possibly act this obtuse?
You’re figuring out how to act that obtuse. Why is it confusing you?
Good one Robo?
That scout claims it was brought to the attention of MLB. MLB has never said it was.
Another problem here is that every team was attempting to cheat and steal signs. That is why the Astros didn’t get reported, because the potential reporting teams were also cheating and didn’t want to expose themselves. My point being that it’s kinda ridiculous that the Astros get destroyed here while the Yankees get a pass, even though we know they were cheating too. At least the Red Sox are being investigated… Yankees next.
Where were the umpires in all of this? If im calling a game behind the plate and i hear a trash can bang on every off-speed pitch I’m pretty sure the 3 marbles in my head would correlate that to something suspicious. To think this happened for a whole season and nobody caught on to this is unthinkable
I still don’t understand how the players on opposing team didn’t figure this out earlier. How did the opposing first basemen not hear the garbage can? It took all season until a pitcher finally noticed?!?! Especially when everyone says they suspected them of stealing signs. The Astros were relaying the signs so the entire ballpark could hear them!
They did figure it out. At least a third of teams were using a similar system. Teams and players are not that dumb.
You’re forgetting that little detail about how this implicates other teams.
If MLB sweeps this under the rug scapegoating the Astros alone, that’s really bad, not to mention how our fanbase feels about the previous commissioner did us wrong.
As a native Houstonian and lifelong Astros fan this whole thing makes me sick. I genuinely want to see how these guys do this year and see if we can move past this. All the fans from around the league have good reason to be upset and may Crane should be required to sell the team. But the people of Houston, the fourth largest city in the country deserve a team to root for.
I respect your take –
as the owner, Crane should bear more punishment than he already has – as an example, George Steinbrenner was suspended for 15 months (reduced from 2 yrs) for illegal political campaign contributions (something not related to baseball).
A good friend of mine, and a very good baseball player, is a die-hard Astros fan. He was contemplating giving up watching MLB for good because of this. This is something a lot of people don’t understand, that the players you root for were caught cheating.
Astros players owe their own fans a HUGE apology for letting them down
Come on folks. He wasn’t talking about the Astros specifically, he was talking about baseball in general. Are you really that dense?
We KNOW the day the Astros started using the sign stealing system system they were penalized for. May 28th 2017.
We KNOW that the Red Sox and Yankees were also caught using a similar, but not exactly the same, system to steal signs in September 2017.
We KNOW that Manfred sent out his memo to the teams detailing exactly what was against the rules on September 15, 2017 BECAUSE they caught the Red Sox and Yankees using their sign stealing systems.
We KNOW that at least 8 other teams were stealing signs utilizing a live feed but that in their 3 month investigation MLB could not find evidence they used it AFTER the September 15th memo from Manfred.
We KNOW that Carlos Beltran has said that he brought the system from the Yankees to the Astros and that the Yankees had been using the system both of the years Beltran was on the Yankees. Namely 2015 and 2016.
ALL of this was 3 seasons ago. In 2019 there could not be sign stealing using a live feed to relay signs to the batters in real time from the dugout because there are not live feeds that the teams have access too. Everything the teams and players can see is on an 8 second delay. No way to tell a batter that a specific pitch is coming based on what they see on TV. Its just not possible anymore.
Yes, there is an instant replay room, but only one person from the team has access to it and they are monitored by MLB as are all communication between that room and the hardwired dugout phone. They can’t use that to relay signs either.
It is really past time to stop slogging through the number 2 and get back to discussing baseball. This is all 2 year old news to anyone that has half a brain.
Finally. Someone with at least a shred of common sense.
Interesting. Using an alt account to “agree” with yourself.
Absolutely
It’s baseball. You think everyone is going to forget about the 1919 Black Sox just because it was in the past? You think Pete Rose will be forgotten or the steroid era? Baseball is history. It’s a part of our American culture and deserves to be remembered.
End of lesson.
Want to know how I know this article is BS from the start? MLB allows iPads in the dugout. Every team has them. That is electronics. It is not against the rules to look at recorded video of teams signs and then have a base coach or base runner relay them i they see them. It’s only against the rules to have the dugout relay those signs from real time video. There is no real time video. No live feeds. .
The camera in CF was the TV camera. The one that is looking at home plate. That TV feed is now delayed. It has been since 2018. You can’t use that to steal signs in real time.
The Astros started using the live feed to steal signs starting in May of 2017 because Beltran said the Yankees had used it and he wondered why the Astros didn’t. . The team was already in first place at that point in the season and had been for 6 weeks.
“Operation Codebreaker” didn’t start until August of 2017 according to the WSJ. It’s not against the rules to study video of past games to determine the signs teams use. If you keep using them, it’s on you, not the team smart enough to figure out your signs. CHANGE YOUR FRICKIN SIGNS.
“So during the ALCS games in Houston, at least one of the Nationals’ scouts kept a pair of binoculars trained on the area beyond center field, keeping watch for any suspicious cameras or personnel. When that failed to turn up anything nefarious, one of the scouts, on at least one occasion, went out to the center field area in person to canvass it.
The Nationals never found anything suspicious.”
So the Nationals broke the rules about binoculars but no one is pointing that out? GTFO.
This article totally misses the obvious fact that there is no live camera feed in MLB ballparks anymore that team personnel or players have access to. That is what is against the rules. As are binoculars and cellphones or smart watches that allow the dugout to relay signs to the batter in real time.
Anything else they do in terms of watching video of previous games or even from earlier in that game is perfectly legal. Change your signs. Get better at hiding them. Like the Nationals did.
Where is Lunhow in all this? He hasn’t been seen or heard – what putzh.
And where is the ever outspoken Verlander? Guess it’s okay to cheat as long as it’s on his team.
Yet arm guards worn by hitters to crowd the plate and prolong at bats isn’t cheating? Can pitchers wear elbow braces to minimize the risk of Tommy John?
Sign-stealing has been part of this game forever. No more video technology in the dugout, no more technology worn by any player, and if a sign is stolen the old-fashioned way then it’s up to the opposing team to adjust.
Take the padding off the hitters and some will back off the plate and protect themselves. It’ll make the game better, faster and will protect the pitchers from keeping Dr Andrews busy.
Love this point.
So EVERYONE knew what they were doing but NOBODY changed their signs!!??
Shame on them…..
Yeah, you got it right! Hit the bullseye! Let the Astros cheat more. It’s the responsibility of the other teams to adapt! Sheesh! Doesn’t the rest of MLB know this? Wait, are you sure this is in the rulebook?
As the onion gets peeled away and the articles on the Astros cheating keep coming, there is absolutely no way the Astros players escape backlash from fans at every ballpark they play. If spineless Manfred knew that the MLB Players Union wasn’t going to get involved there would be punishment handed down to the players. He did nothing about the cheating even when a dozen MLB teams complained to him. It was only when The Athletic broke the news that he felt inclined to do something.
Astros players deserve every boo and heckle they’ll hear.