In the wake of severe MLB discipline arising out of the Astros sign-stealing scandal, team owner Jim Crane announced that he has fired both GM Jeff Luhnow and manager A.J. Hinch. It’s a stunning end to a notable tenure in Houston for both men.
The Astros organization has been a lightning rod ever since Luhnow took over in December of 2011. But the swings in fortunes have reached dizzying levels in recent months. The club bungled a self-created controversy even as it prepared for the World Series, then lost consecutive home games in spectacular fashion, thus failing to win a second title in a three-year span.
It turned out that was only the beginning. It started out as a normal-enough offseason — some change was afoot with top starter Gerrit Cole reaching free agency and Crane suggesting the team might tighten up payroll. But things took a calamitous turn when allegations emerged in mid-November that the Houston organization had improperly utilized technology to ascertain opposing teams’ signs and then convey them in real-time to Astros hitters during the 2017 and 2018 seasons.
The resulting league investigation unfolded even as public evidence emerged to fully confirm the claims. It became undeniably clear that the Astros had acted in a manner that fell well outside the traditional sign-stealing culture of the game and clearly broke the rules. Commissioner Rob Manfred had made clear previously that he’d come down hard on any teams that misused technology.
While a big punishment had been anticipated, this nevertheless rates as a momentous decision for the organization as well as for the game generally. The fallout will be immense and can’t be fully known at the moment.
From the Astros’ perspective, the firing unquestionably taints the team’s successes in recent years — even if Crane declined to acknowledge that fact in his press conference. And it raises huge questions about the future. It takes out the club’s baseball architect in Luhnow, even as his top understudies have already departed the organization. (Brandon Taubman was fired. Previously, David Stearns and Mike Elias left for GM jobs elsewhere.) There had already been some degree of uncertainty regarding the team’s precise direction this offseason and beyond. Now, the club’s top leaders are gone and more could still follow. Crane said he was still assessing the culpability of other personnel and deciding how to fill the void for the departing leaders. He’ll personally oversee baseball ops for the time being. Whether there’ll be an impact to the roster isn’t yet known.
Across the league, there’ll surely be a strong desire to avoid a similar fate. Available information and scrutiny — both publicly and within the game — are obviously reaching new heights. Manfred’s statement made clear that, despite the lack of a smoking gun linking Luhnow to the cheating effort, he and Hinch were being punished for overseeing a baseball operations department and uniformed staff that pursued it. As Crane told reporters today, it was obvious that both men were aware of and did not intervene to stop the sign-stealing. The onus will now be on other top organizational leaders to halt any untoward behavior, at risk of severe consequences.
Beyond that, any changes to the course of the Houston organization will obviously impact the broader player market and their competitors in the American League West. The organization’s philosophical approach and its near-term decisionmaking could well undergo change.
Baseball has long grappled with the cutthroat approach to roster building that Luhnow brought to the Astros. As an analytically focused executive who launched a full-blown tear-down/rebuild, that was somewhat inevitable. But the organization went to extremes to build what has been characterized as “an unprecedented player-development machine” — albeit one that also created “human costs.” The win-at-all-costs vibes left many feeling uneasy well before news emerged of actual rules violations.
Luhnow insists that he did not direct any cheating and wasn’t even aware it was occurring, as Jared Diamond of the Wall Street Journal reports (Twitter link). But the league investigation did find that Luhnow failed to take adequate action to ensure compliance with league rules — and that he had at least some amount of knowledge regarding the sign-stealing operation. Despite disavowing any intent to break the rules, Luhnow did state that he accepts responsibility for what went on during his stewardship of the organization’s baseball operations.
Luhnow’s baseball operations department carried an image akin to the unfeeling Soviet boxing-industrial complex portrayed in the Rocky series. But Hinch was no Ivan Drago. He and some of the team’s biggest stars put a much more personable face on the organization. He was by all appearances not only a high-quality skipper and tactician, but also a genuinely thoughtful and caring figure.
But that reputation, even if largely accurate, did not absolve Hinch of responsibility. Manfred’s report on the investigation’s findings makes clear that the manager knew what was going on. He’s said to have had some misgivings about the actions but obviously failed to act firmly to halt the operation, either by issuing clear orders to those theoretically under his command or by raising the matter to higher authorities. Hinch acknowledged as much in his own statement on the matter (via Chandler Rome of the Houston Chronicle, on Twitter). Though he says he did not “endorse or participate in the sign stealing practices,” he acknowledges that he “failed to stop them.”
It’s a major shift for a Houston organization that had seemingly arrived at a winning formula. With Luhnow masterminding the talent flow and Hinch maximizing the pieces made available to him, the organization built a powerhouse that won the 2017 World Series, came up just shy in another, and reeled off three-straight 100-win regular seasons. Much was achieved and it seemed likely there was more success yet to come. Quite a lot of creative thinking and hard work went into the undertaking. But the wins will be remembered with an asterisk — in collective memory, if not in the actual record books — and the Astros will now embark upon a new era under new leadership.
Photo courtesy of USA Today Sports Images.
Boom goes the dynamite
More like bang goes the trash can
…This Trash Can Tolls For You…
Metallica’s new song, For Whom the Can Tolls?
Breaking: the HOU Astros have just been cast in a Broadway revival of Stomp! (For you younger fans Stomp was a trashcan musical in the 90s).
In all seriousness though I wonder if the 5M fine counts against the teams CBT calculations?
Luhnow, Hinch, Cora all should have lifetime bans just like Manfred gave Coppolella. Fire Manfred!
i hate my father
Luhnow and Hinch pretty much getting lifetime bans, no team is going to hire those guys again.
Cora should be next if there is any credence to the alleged Red Sox incident.
From the details about the Houston incident, it sounds like Cora and Beltran lead the sign-stealing, monitor your trash-can cheating. I suspect Cora will get more considering both cases.
Even as a Dodger fan, I have empathy for Hinch. He’s a good manager of people; but IF he was a more old-school(read ineffective and outdated) authoritarian manager, he would have stopped the cheating and not just smashed up the monitor. However, if he was that authoritarian manager, his team would likely not have the success it has had.
Hindsight reflection and all….
If I’m hearing this right Cora with the Astros in 2017 was cheating. Then in 2018 the Astros weren’t cheating but Cora is with the 2018 Red Sox and they are cheating?
I’m an Angels fan and I have no empathy for Hinch and even though it pains me to admit I’m kind of ticked the Dodgers got screwed.
I’m don’t like at all the players didn’t get disciplined or punished. I really thought this was going to Federal courts being the amount of money the Astros stole from winning the WS. I did see a report on MLB tv laying out why the players weren’t punished, I don’t like it but I get their point. I think the punishment the Astros are getting isn’t as severe as analysts are stating considering how much money they made off the cheating.
I assume other teams do it as well, not naive on that.
I’m still hoping the Angels players or management didn’t know anything about the potential opioid scandal last year. I’m assuming that will be investigated after they finish with Cora.
Federal courts? Too funny
Cora? Oh my goodness, no! The first Latino RS manager who was lionized in ’14 as a hiring who’s time had come? After all that smarmy nonsense, Cora probably believed that he was immune from even an investigation, much less a suspension. For his sake, I hope he’s been investing wisely these past 6 yrs as the cash cow has croaked.
The opioid incident is far worse than everything else combined. Expect criminal charges if there is fire below the smoke. With celebrity status comes ramifications and the government will use this sad situation to set an example if there’s fire beneath the smoke.
A team will hire Luhnow as soon as his suspension is served because of his track record for drafting talent. Hinch? In a few years.
I’m stating that because of the postseason money earned while cheating which was awarded to the Astros. That is between $20 and $30 million. Too funny? I don’t think so, that’s a major theft is why I thought it would end up in federal courts. Can you steal $30 million and not be prosecuted?
Serious question: Does the suspension time count if Luhnow/ Hinch are not employed??
In some places the clock will “run”.
In some places the clock is stopped until the person is employed.
It is Bee.Ess that players aren’t suspended, and Commish Corleone’s “reasoning” is specious. Michael Pineda moved from the Yankees to the Twins this offseason, but has to still finish out his suspension for an unallowed alleged steroid masker. https://socraticgadfly.blogspot.com/2020/01/quick-hits-on-cheating-astros.html
Hinch’s claim to know nothing?
Like Tony the Pony La Russa (and I’m a Cards fan) claiming that, when in Oakland, he didn’t know about Big Mac and Canseco shooting each other’s buns, or drinking Canseco Milkshakes.
Good question. I believe the difference is union related. In situations where a player’s suspension clock stopped while not employed had MLBPA to deal with. Also, the Houston two were suspended first and then fired. The order could also be important.
Where was the Cardinals hitting coach before he came to STL? Interesting.
So if you read the statement from Manfred, he literally says Cora’s punishment is pending the investigation into the 2018 Red Sox. Since Crane fired Luhnow/Hinch, this is all but a lifetime ban for both men.
Cora and Dombrowski should get banned too!
Let’s see if it comes out that Boston management knew. If so, I agree.
Nobody will EVER hire these two morons again. It may as well have been a lifetime ban.
Coras ban will be worse since he and Beltran were the masterminds of it. How MLB is allowing Beltran to get away unscathed is beyond bs.
Beltran the player and all the Astro players are getting off.
The players should have been punished. Nothing major, but every player who wore an electronic device to home plate should have received a ten to fifteen game suspension. The Suspensions could have been spread out between players.
I so hope Beltran is banned before he manages even one game. I just love basking in Mets misery!
Well, plus add Cora’s part in the Sox cheating. So he’s doubly-guilty. I’m guessing a year’s suspension and a huge fine. But, like Hinch, Cora will be canned.
Was cheating the reason Dombrowski was fired, when Boston found out they were cheating?
Unicorndog. Beltran is not being punished. The players got a pass.
Beltran and players are getting a pass because (wo)Manfred sucks up to the players union.
Beltrán, was not just a player. He was part of the master mind…
Beltrán, was not just a player. He was part of the master mind…
Beltrán, was not just a player. He was part of the master mind…
Beltrán, was not just a player. He was part of the master mind…
Beltrán, was not just a player. He was part of the master mind…
Was Beltran just a player?
Some might say…he’s “part of the master mind.”
Let’s see if the Mets ownership steps. This could be grounds to void Beltran’s contract depending on the paperwork and interview process. If he lied, Wilpon could force the issue. Cheating is cheating. Once rules were put in place, those involved crossed the gamesmanship line.
So far but if he lied during the interview process, his contract could be voided.
except there’s no mention of “electronic devices” anywhere in the report. and, unless they pinpoint which players were the ones actively watching and doing the banging on the trash can, you can’t punish the batters because you can’t prove beyond a doubt that they were going along with it.
Alfred E Neuman
Why not post that a few dozen more times?
I’ve read many of the same people saying that.
Beltran spoke to MLB and they have other evidence. this crimes as a player may get overlooked by MLB but still could be grounds to void his managerial contract if he mispresented himself or lied should Mets’ ownership press the issue.
two yrs minimum and probably a LOT more!
Make a heck of a movie though
Beltran got more rave reviews as a mastermind than a player
Both guys will be hired within 2 years. This will be quickly forgotten just like the sham of McGwire and Sosa in 1998 and the federal crime the Cardinals committed hacking computers.
The MLBPA would appeal every suspension. It would cost the League more than the $5M they’re getting from the Astros to litigate.
No, he was part of the master mind.
Why? What did Dombrowski know?
Well I am a Mets life long fan and think he should be banned.
Leaving him in is more Mets misery!
Love that idea. The players getting off scot-free is problematic.
It would be consistent with the penalty for the concept of “cheating” and actions that negatively effect the integrity of the game, although they have a very subjective and arbitrary standards. For instance, I grew to love baseball in the 80s and 90s, so I wish all known steroid users would be banned. But we’ll probably see Bonds get elected to the HOF. I also believe that Pete Rose deserved what he received, but I don’t believe his should be lifetime, unless they publish findings that he actually bet against his team.
I don’t put steroids in the same category as betting on baseball. Yes it is cheating but it is cheating to be bigger, stronger, and faster in order to win. It does not suggest that the outcome of the game you are about to watch is in essence pre determined by potential throwing a game due to your bets. Even the slightest suspicion of that happening is detrimental which is why Rose was suspended.
As for him being one day reinstated, he only has himself to blame. Over the years he went from “I never bet on baseball” to “I bet on baseball but never on my own team,” to most recently “ok I bet on my team but only to win.” Let’s just wait ‘til he needs to sell his next book and admits he did in-fact “bet on them to lose… but only once.” He has zero remorse.
Unless someone bets the same amount on every game that season, on-off or different amount betting gives inside info to those in the know…Rose’s lifetime ban is fully justified…
Sounds like Baseballs the one with no Remorse- There are dozens of worse dudes in the Hall than Peter Rose
This is just about ego, Rose didnt bend so these old geezers that have electorate ballots are holding onto it till the day he dies
Until he fully comes clean, the only way he can enter the Hall is if he pays to get there.
Should Pete Rose have been banned from baseball for betting on games, while he was a manager most definitely.He was in a position where he could control the outcome of a game and I don’t believe he never bet for or against his own team. The urge to use inside information would be to great.
What I do think is wrong is Rose being banned from the HoF as a player . Even the investigating body admitted there was no wrong doing as a player, and during his years as a player he set records and played the game hard.
Allow him in and you don’t hide the fact he was banned and why.
But what if he pays with baseball gambling winnings? Didn’t consider that one, did you?
Yes, but the Pete Rose rule, for the hall, is garbage.
Shoeless Joe Jackson, was not elected, but Pete was never given the opportunity.
Rose I believe was going to be reinstated later in Giamatti’s run as commissioner but he passed before he had a chance.
I feel rose the player should be in. The way I look at is if frank Robinson did the same when he was with the nationals would they remove his plaque. I think roses problem is that it was found out a year or two to early. He’d still be banned but would be in the hall.
Another president was that mays and mantle were both banned when they endorsed casinos. Neither booted from hall
I also think joe Jackson and cicotte should be in. Rather have those two in than Harold baines.
Steroid use is both cheating and a federal crime. FTR.
I wonder if Cora will be fired by the Red Sox now.
Probably not until the punishment comes down, but you can bet Chaim Bloom is looking around to see if he wants to promote someone on the staff or start quietly vetting people.
who do you think they should be vetting? i’m not sure what sorts of candidates are out there or who would be a good fit. the few that come to mind are venable, kotsay, joey cora (how fun would that be?), buck, ausmus, and.jason varitek.
i think how the FO wants to use in game analytics would play a role but my hunch is they would ride with roenicke and move varitek to a more hands on role.
Cora will be interesting on several points. Fist he has a definite link to the Astro’s win of the W/S. And basically in the same boat with Hinch. Then he comes to Boston where he’s handed a W/S winning team and then the next season that almost identical team doesn’t make it to post season so now he has ownership (who has a history of dumping manager) watching him closely. Then you have the investigation into the same offence from Boston winning the W/S.
The topper is the Astro’s fire the manager and GM which almost forces Henry to follow suit.
There is a clear difference in the punishment for the Astros and the Cardinals. The commissioner confirmed that the management of the Cardinals were not
i don’t know, i feel a little bad for hinch if you believe the investigation.
Fire Manfred for what? I swear people have no common sense.
How about for handing out a punishment worse for breaking an mlb rule then he did when the cards broke a federal law and hacked the Astros database?? If you think mlb rules hold more weight then federal laws you are sadly mistaken. Manfred is a joke and should be fired immediately
Did they break the law like the Cardinals did? No. However, Crane showed guts while Dewitt built a bar and condos and his little buddy bought more sweaters and bowties with his extension money.
Plop goes two turds into the toilet. Flushed and gone.
Looks like the owner found a use for the trashcan too
Good job MLB now do the same to the red sox. Am glad ownership did the right thing 2 WS chmpions that cheated their way to a title. The reason i completely gave up on the NFL this isn’t WWF. They should put an asterisk next to them they won the WS but cheated during the season to win it. This is worse than steroids.
Unkike Bill Dewitt, whose President of Baseball Ops and his lackey actually broke the law, Jim Crane fired his people while Dewitt rewarded his people with extensions. Break the law and keep your job. Steal signs and lose yours. Kudos Jim Crane for having the guts.
There’s been no evidence that Mozeliak, etc. had anything to do with the hacking scandal, and unlike Luhnow there was no way for them to have prevented it from occurring. Keep your blatant libel out of the discussion!
Yeah, Mozeliak knew nothing. Insert the biggest eye roll here. It’s so funny how certain fans of certain teams, will throw stones and totally turn a blind eye, as they sit in their glass house. Libel? That’s rich.
Then again, his name is Mo, which is short for…
Give the trophy to the Dodgers.
No, they lost, and did not deserve it.
If you want to take it away, fine, but then you have 2 losers.
Houston won at Dodger Stadium….they were on an even playing field. if you think the Astros did this in your home you’re crazy.
During the game at Dodger Stadium when Houston was teeing off on Darvish at one point, I thought to myself, self, something odd is going on. Houston batters appear to know what’s coming before pitches are thrown. Darvish was throwing well, and I thought his location was fine.
This is big time BS in my book! 8 White Sox got band for life for their role in cheating of the 1919 WS! All the Astr’os players had to know this was going on!!! I would cancel their contracts & tell them they broke their contract by cheating & make them resign new contracts for less money!! This would get the attention of the rest the teams that this is not what playing sports is about!! Nib it in the BUD!!!
It wasn’t just cheating in the Black Sox case. They were throwing the Series as well as breaking federal law (despite never being prosecuted for it). That’s much worse than just cheating for a better chance to win.
So long and thanks for all the fish
Weak response by the commissioner. As usual they put future profits above doing the right thing. First and foremost, it was a failure of the commissioners office having not spelled out clear consequences for this form of cheating. Secondly, the players who came up with this idea and then implemented it should be held accountable. By punishing management and not the cheaters themselves, MLB is effectively saying that the players are children incapable of understanding their actions. Somewhat similar to how steroid users have been let off the hook by and large, particularly as compared to their ‘lynching’ of Pete Rose. But also different, in that mlb didn’t hold management responsible for Rose’s actions. This is seemingly a new precedent, but really it’s the same tired stance in which the commissioner protects the majority of its players but most importantly ownerships profits.
Hinch and Luhnow just the fall guys for the ‘children’ who actually did the cheating. Sad. Make Baseball Great Again!
*confetti emoji, surprised emoji*
Wouldnt shock me to see Luhnow again lol
Hinch too. They basically just sat back but didn’t come up with the idea or endorse it. Easily forgivable by today’s standards. You have “men” who beat their wives and kids still playing and making millions – these two guys aren’t nearly as bad.
they endorsed it with their silence.
They actively promoted it. Are we supposed to believe this is all on the players, as though they paid for and setup a system to use the camera in centerfield?
But you don’t know any of that.
One is cheating at the game. That matters in the game. Despite how awful it is, what they do off the field really has nothing to do with baseball. There isn’t a “good person” requirement for being employed as a baseball player, nor is there one for making millions. And there shouldn’t be.
I’m not condoning what such players do. But I think you’re making such an evaluation based upon how bad their actions are in vacuum, rather than how bad they affect baseball.
Abhorrent off-the-field transgressions will always affect baseball more negatively than anything which happens between the lines. Baseball is just a game, but what Addison Russell’s gf went through is no game.
I do agree about Russell’s gf, but its effect on the game is a matter of those who choose to let it. It doesn’t change the game between the lines. I’m not a supporter of MLB, or any employer, having the ability to regulate anything that happens “off the clock,” or react to it. I don’t support an employer’s authority to regulate employee’s behavior off the clock, no matter the effect on the employer’s image. In fact, I would make it illegal, even in a CBA. And if this were true across the board, no one could blame MLB, or any other employer, for not reacting, because they couldn’t react, therefore it would have no negative effect on the employer.
richt, the things are not comparable. Cheating on the field impacts the bed pro sports has made with gambling. Wait for the class action suit for all the Fan Duel losers out there. I’m saying this tongue in cheek but truthfully if there is no integrity in the sport, there is no sport.
In an interesting way though the cheating in this aspect would quickly bake itself into the projections and the price on DFS sites. So theoretically this type of cheating, as opposed to taking a dive, would not really effect the gambling side. I think most sites factor in things like Home Away as they do with opposing pitchers and most other factors.
it doesn’t change in the sense that the games weren’t rigged but if money exchanged hands and rules weren’t abided by, an argument could be made.
Easily forgivable? Gimme a break. They deserve lifetime bans. Don’t try to muddy the waters by talking about spousal abuse. Talking about spousal abuse, drinking and driving, is just a whimpy way of trying to defend indefensible actions.
I can guarantee you’ll see Luhnow again. Wouldn’t surprise me to see him be an assistant GM after the ban next year.
I could see him with the Browns
Whoa! The BoSox will probably be forced to do the same to Cora now too eventually right?
gotta assume so
No, I don’t think so. No players from that time are being punished. Beltran was fully cooperative with the investigation and Mets were aware when they hired him.
but he was very involved. nothing is stopping them
Cora was the bench coach, not a player.
Seems like the MLB is done with discipline involving the Astros case. Cora and probably others involved in the Red Sox case will face disciplinary actions once that investigation is complete
But Cora wasn’t a player in 2017 like Beltran was, he was the bench coach. And he was also apparently instrumental in setting up the whole thing. His punishment is extremely likely to be harsher than Hinch’s.
They’re going to hold off on dealing Cora’s final punishment until they finish their investigation into the claims against the Red Sox.
Manfred says he’ll address coras punishment when they conclude the Red Sox investigation
Why not the players?
Why? Did Beltran recite the ridiculous magic words: “I take full responsibility for my actions.”, or the always popular “This is all on me.”?
Why do you keep saying Beltran fully cooperated? You don’t know that, so stop saying it.
I don’t think Beltran will face discipline because he was a player during the whole thing
Thats a really interesting point. If they do get him it”ll all but signal that teh only reason players didnt get got was because of the new CBA conversation coming up.
Wouldn’t be surprised if the MLB gets rid of Cora themselves. His involvement seemed to be a lot more than that of Hinch. If hinch got a full year suspension I would not be shocked if Cora is banned from the MLV
Cora won’t be banned. There would be appeals, lawsuits, etc. I’m guessing a year’s suspension and termination by Boston.
Management doesn’t have any kind of appeals or greivance system; MLB has an anti-trust exemption. There are no lawsuits or appeals if Cora is given a lifetime ban, any more than there were from Coppolella.
Bosox probably expecting a ban for Cora which may explain the mandate to get below the salary cap. It may seem a lost season for mgmt.
That escalated quickly
I think the Red Sox manager job might be available soon.
Manny Ramirez calling…
If the Sox fire Cora and hire Pedie as the next manager, does his remaining player salary count against the tax? If not, he’s hired at the exact same pay since they would regardless have to pay the difference against it…
Yes it still counts. Baseball player contracts are fully guaranteed. Moving them to a different role doesn’t escape that.
I didn’t clarify. I meant if Pedie were to retire to take over as manager. Would seem to be a legal loophole for at least a partial recovery if for example they paid him as manager something in between Cora’s salary and what they previously paid Farrell and/or Tito.
As a long time Mets fan I think they should fire Carlos Beltran.
He is tainted and it taints the whole organization.
Just because baseball did the minimum it does not mean the organization shouldn’t show some class on their own.
Mlb should still not allow them to get a job for a year. Can’t get banned with the Astros and then just go find another job
I think they’re banned from baseball activities, not just the Astros.
Yeah not just Astros. Suspension might be paused till they get another gig too. I wonder if MLB will view this as an attempt to skirt punishment by firing them, although I really doubt teams want to be shopping for a new GM, and manager in Jan with an uninspiring offseason under there belt.
I wouldn’t think so since SOMEBODY has to manage the team whether it’s an outside hire or the current bench coach.
Forcing an existing AGM and bench coach to fill in for the two for the season seems like a punishment that fits the crime.
Then the commissioner would be affecting the results of future games with players (especially with free agency) that may and may not be guilty as well. That wouldn’t be fair either. To be honest though, someone from the current coaching staff makes more sense because of their familiarity with the club. It would be hard for an outside manager to come in now and put their stamp on things.
Like 80% if the roster was around at the time and complicit.
I’m pretty sure if you’re banned for a year, then you’re completely banned from all of baseball for that year. If I’m incorrect, somebody please point it out?
In the report they are banned from all baseball activities including being on the premises of any major or minor league facility.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
You are correct. They may be back as someone said; but it will be 2021.
They’ll still be banned until after the 2020 WS from working in baseball regardless of employment with Houston
^— Post of the day nominee!
They are banned for a year. The fact that they were fired now doesn’t change that
It might, actually. They might still have to serve a suspension once hired again since now that they’re unemployed, they technically are not missing games
That’s not how it works…
MLB makes their own rules, so it kinda works however they want it to work. Regardless, neither of these guys are getting jobs in baseball again.
You are correct! They will miss the first year of their next employment-if someone hires either of them.
I love how Emilia says you are correct. Like you know these things. No one does.
Incorrect. Their suspension is mlb time based only, so they miss the 2020 season. If you need further evidence, consider the suspension was handed down before they were fired and still employed. The firings were to be expected, as no team is going to hold your job for a year while you’re suspended if they’re not required to do so by law.
ummmm that escalated quickly..
Wow this is exploding by the minute.
Haha, bye! No place for cheating in the game. Same goes for the Red Sox and Cardinals. That stink never wears off. Cora should also be unemployed by day’s end.
But there is a place for women beaters like Chapman in 2016 and Addison Russell? Easy there, buddy – your team isn’t passing any purity tests anytime soon.
Proly to young to remember The BOSS hiring a bookie to dig up & or frame one of his players. Then THE BOSS got suspended for a year for it.
Tell me your team and I’ll find you some of your own wife beaters.
Is that because you guys all hang out together? Very odd thing for you to say.
What are you talking about? Those are crimes that the law will take care of that MLB may not like the optics of. Luhnow and Hinch are in violation of MLB rules. If you work for Walmart Houston and you beat someone they might suspend if you are high profile, but if you violate the Walmart rules you will probably get a harsher penalty or get fired
. Hinch is free to manage this year , only not MLB or related teams. He could manage the Chunichi Dragons or such.
They are toxic, no one will hire them before 1-13-2021 and probably not soon after that either.
Nope, no excuse for domestic violence. Those POS paid their dues, served their punishment. That said, it’s obviously not cheating and a bogus a response. The Cubs/Yankees gain no competitive advantage from one of their players being a complete dirtbag in their personal life. No asterisk next to the Cubs ship and/or any that the Yanks win with that POS closing out games.
Forgive me for being ignorant, but the Cardinals?
That guy is either a Cub troll account or someone that has driven away all of his friends with his locker room trash talk nonsense. He regularly visits the Cardinals threads with his drivel.
Hacked the Astro database when luhnow was hired. Company espionage. Federal crime. Much worse then what the Astros or Red Sox did
LOL. The Cardinals did not cheat. Their farm director, Chris Correa, went rogue and accessed the Astros account himself. There was no information to the contrary. There was also no evidence that any Astros data was used by the Cardinals in any way. He was found out and fired. Johnny Mo very likely didn’t even know Correa did what he did. The Cardinals were only fined and had their 1st rounder taken away because they couldn’t do less just from an organization accountability standpoint.
“The cards didn’t cheat. Just one of their employees did.”
I mean, “cheating” implies that they used something for ill gotten gains. There’s no evidence of that. Correa accessed the Astros system but there’s no evidence it was used for any draft.
Umm that’s inaccurate. It was proven he leaked Astro trade talks so teams could see offers they were making. I think one was ridiculous like Jason maxwell for scherzer
JBhoops, are you the President of the Naive Club of America?
Didn’t see that one coming at all.
Well good for him. Sure beats some bogus excuse or explanation. Simple. Just wrong. And won’t be tolerated.
Yup, BOOM. Cora is sweating now.
now the mets and Red Sox need to do the same.
the report specifically mentioned Beltran
link me to what you read. I didnt see anything about any punishment towards beltran or any other player involved in the incident. Please show me what you read.
I reckon where Beltran was a player at the time, he falls under the umbrella of players not being punished.
it wss refrenced on the previous article here.
carlos beltran allegedly had involvement with this. no idea how much or if its true, but thats what jtvincent is referring to
Apparently Beltran was involved with this Astros cheating
yes. mlb did not punish him but the mets could. I would if I was them
I highly doubt it. They would be breaching his contract. They were fully aware of his involvement when they signed him as manager.
i dont believe that. i simply think his punishment, given that he is now with another team, will simply be more carefully constructed by the league, and that’s why it hasnt been mentioned yet.
The Mets make themselves look foolish enough — they wont do a thing — bad enough they hired him as manager
You want to punish someone for something they did elsewhere? And in a completely different roll? Fans. Are. Dumb.
No, I don’t think so for the Mets. No players from that time are being punished. Beltran was fully cooperative with the investigation and Mets were aware when they hired him.
For the Red Sox, that may come after the 2018 investigation is completed. Nothing has been announced yet for him regarding 2017.
The Mets are not firing Carlos Beltran. No chance. The Wilpons hired him because they felt like they owed him the job, they aren’t going to walk away when their preferred candidates all have jobs already.
The fanbase in Queens already hates the Wilpons, and with the transition to new ownership in the works there’s no way the Wilpons will be able to unilaterally make a decision that will alienate the already pissed off fans.
And you know what the Wilpons are thinking how? Oh right, you don’t.
Stfu Yankee fan. Owed him a job. You’re an idiot.
I can tell you as a long time Met’s fan who sill has baseball cards from 1967-1970 I would not be pissed at all.
The Met’s should fire Beltran as he is tainted and now taints the whole organization.
As a Yankee fan you should appreciate the feeling of rooting for a class organization; I mean this sincerely and not as a weak backhanded slap.
When I was raised on Who’s swell Boswell
You also can’t be born and raised in NY and not know how great the Yankees are.
they’ll land on their feet somewhere, though certainly not in this league.
I figured the Commish was going to do that as “the penalty”.
It was the right thing to do for Crane.
It would have been the right thing to do three months ago. Now it’s just reactionary and only after he realized he wouldn’t have either of them for 10 months anyway.
You’re assuming that the owner made a snap decision. He might have, or more likely, he might have made this decision months ago but was told by MLB to hold off until after the investigation was finished.
Good on Jim Crane. This not only punishes the culprits more, but also sets them up to have no gaps in leadership in those positions. A year away can really change things, so smoothing over the transition was the best call for them.
Of course, Luhnow should have been fired when the Astros attacked a female reporter and tried to have her fired back in October to defend executive, Brandon Taubman. What a toxic workplace that must have been.
Hope Crane continues to clean house.
Cheating should get you banned from baseball completely, not just fired.
Pete Rose would agree.
True or false, A-Rod cheated, got caught, admitted it, and continued his career, retired and is now a commentator during the playoffs?
Before you call me a biased Yankees fan, I absolutely hated A-Rod and never condoned his nonsense, but A-Rod was never actually CAUGHT doing anything. He was suspended because of a connection to a clinic that peddling PEDs without a single shred of evidence actually proving he used anything.
Of course, that was all negated when he came out and said it, but he served his year-long suspension and came back, as was his right to do, and was ultimately very unceremoniously forced into retirement, which was still more than he deserved.
Him being a commentator has nothing to do with his baseball behaviors. The man is arguably the most knowledgable baseball mind on Earth, which is surprising considering he felt like he needed a competitive edge all those years, but I’d rather listen to him than 95% of other analysts and most play-by-play guys.
dusty is back in the game. lol
I see your Dusty—and RAISE YOU!!
He had no interest in the Angels job. You think he’s gonna come back just to manage Houston? That would all but destroy his legacy; the Astros as a franchise are nuclear right now.
With Dusty having his pick of jobs…Astros, Red Sox, and Mets should whack Beltran, he was complicit. Pitchers in those markets are shuddering.
The Mets are not firing Beltran. He was a player who has long since retired and is likely facing no suspension, since MLB would have a hard time justifying a suspension of a manager for conduct occurring years earlier as a player.
The lawsuit alone would drag on for years before a judge would ever consider siding with MLB. Beltran is fine.
Buck is gonna land one of these jobs
Assuming Cora is gone
baseball is fun
What are the chances Bloom preemptively fires Cora? Two nice manager roles now available!
id think he’d wait to find a workable replacement first. knowing this surely means he’s started looking though. rough 1st offseason for the guy with the payroll mandate and now this.
The loss of draft picks probably makes it not so nice of a role.
Realistically, the loss of draft picks the next two years won’t hurt a manager, whether it was Hinch or someone else, because of Houston’s low picks in this year’s draft and the likelihood that they would pick similarly low in 2021.
When you consider that most prospects never even sniff the show, and that the ones who do are at least 3-5 years away after starting their first professional season in Low-A ball and add that to the turnover rate of managers, it’s likely that Hinch wouldn’t have still been in Houston when those picks were ready to go anyway.
Not having draft picks will affect the new GM much more than it will ever affect the new manager. Nobody is going to want that job and their only solution will be to hire from within until they have first rounders again.
Tank for years to get all those draft picks and then win a WS by cheating. Poster organization for how not to do things. This punishment is just and well deserved. Cora is next. He’s the constant presence for both teams accused of cheating. He’s going to get hammered
BIGGEST NEWS OF THE OFFSEASON!!! Astros are a 3rd place team.
Maybe in a couple years when the lost draft picks hurt them. Their players are still really good
Are they actually good or was that the trash cans that made them good? Prior to 2017 they werent that good….
Exactly. Very good, but not superhuman like when you know what pitch is coming.
You truly are mindless…
Let’s be real here, they’ve got Greinke and Verlander on the side of the ball that the trash can doesn’t help, and the guys in the field behind them are still elite on the defensive side of the ball where no amount of cheating will help you catch a ball or know where it’s going to go.
Bregman, Correa and Altuve can flat-out hit, trash can or not. I’m a Yankees fan, obviously, but Altuve didn’t need help to crush that slider from Chapman. I haven’t swung a baseball bat in 20 years and I could have hit that a mile. Point is, cheating only helps so much, and pitchers are still going to hang pitches to MLB-level talent and they’re going to get rocked.
Beat the dodgers game 7 in la to win the title. Off your high horse chump
Love how people love to rationalize cheating and downplay the effects. The three main components of pitching is movement, location and velocity. That’s what makes hitting a baseball so difficult. This system essentially eliminates velocity and partially eliminates movement. You’re telling me there is no real advantage. Please don’t insult our intelligence. Baseball is a numbers game and when you eliminate these components it is A LOT EASIER to hit a baseball. For some more than others but there is definitely a sizable advantage or else these clowns would not have cheated. Get it?
Rangers wolnt be better than 3rd of they enter the season with Frazier as their 3B.
still 2nd WC lol
We all know how the rangers do in the playoffs… don’t waste everyone’s time pretending this houston news changes any of that. #Chokers
Also, don’t be surprised if the new astros coach is…. drumroll… John Gibbons.
Even I could manage this Astros team to a playoff berth.
Assuming your username, you might let the pitchers play the field, and let the position players pitch lol.
Good for the Astros ownership. Hinch and Luhnow knew what was going on and allowed it to continue. Players are going to try and find any edge they can. It’s management’s job to know when they’ve crossed the line and it’s management’s job to put a stop to it.
Players should at least have been warned that they will be punished more harshly if they are caught cheating again, where this counts as the equivalent of a suspended sentence on an 80gm suspension, and if the break the rules again they will see the full one year suspension. 2017 Stros players should be on cheaters probation for this with big punishments for recidivism.
Double Secret Probation
Double Super Secret Probation!
this is bad pr if you are the mets or sox. now they have to react. crane did the right thing.
There is zero chance the Mets take any action against Beltran
agree, the mets won’t do a thing
Yes, they don’t want to breach his contract. They were fully aware when they signed him as manager. No agent worth his salt would allow that to remain open ended.
Beltran did nothing, the players aren’t being punished.
he won’t be punished by MLB likely, but should be by Mets ownership if they want to set an example. But being the Mets they likely won’t do a thing.
To say he did nothing is ignoring something directly in front of your face
He was the player who more then any other instigated it from the report. Being a ring leader means more scrutiny, and the fact that he will now be the one responsible for the buck stopping on any cheating Mets it does make him a questionable choice.
Who was banging on the trash can? Who was listening and reacting? Seems punishment for the whole team is justified.
Almost had to do it to protect the integrity of the organization. It won’t remove the asterisk from their title, but Jim Crane was smart to not make any excuses
That’s one way to avoid having a GM and manager both on the shelf for a year.
Well, yeah. What else was Crane supposed to do?
who is on the mets that took part in the scandal at houston?
beltran and marisnick. Neither one will be fired or dropped by the mets. No players are receiving punishment.
Sounds like we know what’s going to happen to Alex Cora now. I’ll be surprised if he’s not fired by the Red Sox for his involvement in 2 investigations now
Oh yeah!!! Now that is an owner taking accountability. Bye bye Hinch… You will be missed… not…Cheater cheater…
They cost Crane 5 million and four draft picks for not putting a stop to it. That’s going to cost you your job.
I hope this isn’t the end of the road for Hinch. Another team should give him a shot next year. Luhnow seems like a snake. Good riddance to him and his awful culture he promoted.
Doubtful Hinch or Luhnow ever get a job in MLB. Especially Hinch, if he knew about it and did nothing to stop it (besides smashing TVs and thinking they’d stop doing it lol). Their names are forever tainted.
agreed, i at least have some sympathy for Hinch given how he was portrayed in tbe report. Luhnow not so much.
They should have also lost the slot value of the draft pics towards the draft those 2 years. Would have given them a lot less money to spend on all the other draft pics!
alex cora’s gotta be sweatin bullets right now lol
owner should be forced to sale the team too…..cheated a world series. sad how weak the punishment was. Now the punishment is negligible.
why would the rest of the owners allow that to become a precedent?
There would need to be proof that Crane had knowledge.not all owners are involved in baseball ops
exactly…allows mlb to save face. they knew they woudl get fired. MLB saves face acting like they punished them, but really knowing they didn’t do anything to hurt them at same time.
now the punishment means nothing happened to the stros. sad how weak it was.
Good Natured Sailor
Either way they need a manager and GM to fill in. They are still fined and lose the 4 draft picks. Nothing really changes here other than the fact that Hinch and Luhnow won’t be on the Astros a year from now when their bans are up.
They do have to replace both at a time in the offseason when most GM/Manager candidates have already found new homes. It will be somewhat problematic since the offseason didnt really feel done, and now this will eat up all the attention until ST.
I also wonder if MLB will view this as an attempt to skirt the punishment since firing them instead of replacing them internally with temps is better for the team since they get to move on. If the players get a pass, and the suspended executives are fired and permanently replaced then the punishment may be to light and MLB might have something to say about it.
mlb has weak leadership….ii doubt it. They knew this would happen….thats why they did it. To save face. Act like they did something but know they really did nothing at same time. SAD.
Cora should be suspended for life next.
Crane is a good owner, and good on him for trying to clean up the Astros reputation.
Crane had no other option really. Perception, if he wants to sell the team at some point in the future this stain will look bad and hurt his sale price. MLB handing down their punishment proves that Houston cheated. He couldn’t go on with those guys leading the team.
You’re telling me crane didn’t know either? Come on. It’s his team he knew. Like what we see in politics, you can’t punish someone for what you “know” happened without sufficient evidence, same goes here. Crane knew, but no one or no way to prove it. Otherwise, he isn’t a good owner for not know what is going on with his team at such an epic level. Like the owners and gm and managers during the steroid years.
Unless Luhnow or Hinch told him but covered for him, until now!
Could get even more interesting if they start speaking out now that they are blacklisted
Good. I’d have fired him for even suggesting the trade for Osuna.
Guess you better fire Cashman and Epstein for housing DV abusers next. While we are on our holier than thou kick.
some people have standards. Getting a woman beater just because the price is low is below mine.
Are you an Angels fan? If so, I don’t think you have much room to talk about “standards” after what happened last summer…
Having team employees that supply drugs is way cleaner!
Hinch buried Cora and stated he was the mastermind. Wow lifetime ban for Cora?
If I’m John Henry, I suspend Alex Cora WITH pay right now, pending the results of the investigation of the 2018 Red Sox.
Cora is essentially being described as the ringleader in the 2017 Astros report, so how can you let him manage the Sox?
You talk like John Henry would have the integrity to do that. Ask a Marlins fan about Henry’s integrity.
So, the Mets may have to find another manager if Beltran gets suspended too?
LOL…can that franchise get anything right?
Coming from a Marlins fan, wow, that is a stunning statement.
Not really. We aren’t the fans of the team with the longest championship drought among NL East teams. The Mets fans are.
beltran isn’t getting suspended so it doesn’t matter.
You know this for sure? Is it like when you stated that the Mets gave the Pirates a deal that they couldn’t pass up for Marte?
They arent suspending players
I mean, it looks like both roles might be filled internally anyways
show proof of me saying that. I dont want Marte and never have. Also, the statement read that no players involved in the incident will be punished.
Not a Bad day for Astros. It was a bad day for Dodgers. Owner just said World Series was not tainted. Give me a Break. “Player Driven” cheating means no players should be available for Hall of Fame!!!
Now that is something Pete Rose should be pointing out if MLB looks to put Carlos Beltran in.
Carlos Beltran played on the Astros for a season and absolutely sucked. Please stop this holier than thou BS.
What does his performance have to do with absolving him for cheating? Pete Rose was not an elite manager, but was banned for life for activities that he did as a manager. He will never see the Hall of Fame for his performance as a player for that. Beltran did this as a player.
Its simply pointing out hypocrisy dude. What Beltran did effected the results of games more then what Rose did. If Beltrans in then why shouldnt Rose be, or if Rose is kept out why shouldnt Beltran be iced. They both made mistakes at the end of their playing careers.
I am personally of the opinion Rose and Shoeless should be in, but Rose should still be banned from working with or for a MLB team.
I agree. If Rose is kept out, Beltran should be out. If Beltran is allowed in, then both Rose and Jackson should be in.
All Houston Astros are banned from the HOF now?
If they were part of it, yes. That would include Verlander, Altuve, Greinke, Bregman and any others that would be successful enough to be considered. You can’t let guys cheat or participate in it.
Agreed! We need to know the players involved,otherwise they are going to get crucified during this season.
So Mariano Rivera, Derek jeter, et al, should be banned from the HOF, correct? Are you going to try to tell us that they had NO IDEA that many of their teammates were HGH/roiding/cheating?
Cruz was busted with A=Rod for HGH but nobody cares about it unless you have a chance to go to the HOF. A-Rod was the best SS and 3rd basemen of all time steriods or not. Time to put the best player in the Hall.
dynamite drop in monty
You play stupid games, you win stupid prizes. See ya cheaters!
Good Natured Sailor
A championship isn’t exactly a stupid prize……I am not saying that the cheating is the reason they won the world series, but it definitely helped along the way. Cheating is terrible and championships won in the process need some sort of mark to show as such.
Cheat if you must, but don’t screw with Jim Crane’s money.
these firings nullify mlb’s punishment. sad how weak it was.
i don’t take it that way, what should the owner have done instead, bring them back in 2021? he’s got to look for replacements…
They can’t get a job in 2020, they’re still getting punished and if they didn’t get punished they’d easily find a job with another team in 2020
He should have had to replace them internally with underlings and not be able to fire them until the suspension is served. No outside hire replacements for this season, and fire them once they have served there time. Team got Rings and a Pennant out of this, so yeah if the complicit players get a pass the team should have a punishment that effects the players ability to win as part of it.
Sheesh lol good I’m glad. I think these two should’ve been banned entirely but I guess this will do. I really hope it’s true Crane knew nothing about what was going on, per MLB. All that was missing was the title being stripped. Now I hope MLB suspends Cora for a season too
I wonder if the NFL has a pair to do the same with Bill Belichick and Tom Brady. Nope.
probably because they don’t cheat….anymore
Or they haven’t been caught…yet…again.
Ummm… That videographer completely acted on his own when filming the Bengals sideline…
Yeah the videographer acted alone the same way felons wear masks and go with weapons to a convenience store at midnight only to be part of the neighborhood watch and keep the money safe by forcing the clerk to give it to them.
Brad Astmus next Manager? Dave Drombaski next GM?
pls… a boy can pray
dynamite drop in monty
Those aren’t actual people.
Nah maybe Dusty Beker and Omar Menaya
This is great!!!
I wish I thought this would give the other AL West teams an edge this season, but I really don’t. Same talent on the field.
It will make a difference in a few years, but the Astros were already expected to decline through the loss of free agents.
How much sign stealing have they been doing the past few years? There is mention of sign decoding in the video room. Was that going on this season as well, where none of the Stros stats since 2016 are legit. Watch Altuve turn back into a slap hitting singles machine with no power lols.
dynamite drop in monty
I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again. Sox need to can the entire coaching staff to-day. Let chaim choose his guys, take your lumps, forget about 18 [banners should be removed and no mention of it should be made by the team] and move on.
honey nut ichiros
What happens with Cora now??
How brave. They cutting any player that banged the trash can too? I don’t understand why Manfred won’t punish the morons that cheated so brazenly in front of everyone’s face. No, sign stealing isn’t cheating per se, but the speed at which the catcher made the call, and the trash can banged, leaves no room for interpretation. Manfred even said so in his report. So why no punishment for them? No one cares about the manager. Anyone can win with stros roster, forged so valiantly on the backs of 5 number 1 picks in a row.
Agreed. Managers cheated, players cheated. Managers are punished, players should be punished. All were involved.
Joe buck as next manager.
The fine is silly.. What is $5 million to a billionaire. Mediocre relief pitchers make that much money in one year.
dynamite drop in monty
You guys seem to think teams are a bottomless pit of money lol
Lmao. a billion+ is a bottomless pit..Again, the owner lost the equivalent of a mediocre reliever. The $5 million loss does nothing but make Crane angry for a while. His budget doesn’t change one iota.
It was the most they could fine him. Would you rather he not get fined??
Who do you think collaborates with MLB in deciding on a $5 million maximum fine? Yeezus Krist
Dolomite is my name…
Not enough. These guys need to be banned or they’ll get hired a year from now (or sooner?) by another team.
Let’s see how well the cheaters do without Hinch!
Cora deserves the same, he is much deserving of this also. They took a wonderful sport for over 100 years and put a stain next to it, but AJ Hinch, etc, will be stained themselves 4ever.
Wow, that escalated quickly
Buck Showalter is available. He’s a good manager when he doesn’t have a GM trying to tank the team.
Managers shouldn’t even exist just use analytics. Who cares about the manager? You get banned as a player for using steroids, you should get banned as a player for banging the trash can. Should have been banned 2 years ago.
Does firing the two of them get the Astros out from under suspension or do they have to operate the full year without naming a manager and GM?
Patrick Reed should take note…
Astros owner trying to save face after the debacle of Brandon Taubman Ex. Assistant GM and his remarks and basically stating the reporter was lying until finally it all came out, then Manfred warning Houston prior on their cheating methods and now this.
You can’t tell me the owner had no knowledge of what was happening whenever a Manager & GM is involved don’t believe the owner didn’t know all the cheating methods that were happening around the stadium and dugout.
Manfred had to come down hard on them and Cora right now must be shaking in his boots because being the mastermind you can see a 2 year sentence coming fast and furious for him now the Onus will be on Boston Red Sox will they fire Cora after what just transpired with Houston?
Pack your bags, Cora.
So much for that dynasty that Bregman thought they had
dombrowski would be ideal
cora gone within 24
So wait Astros can hire Cora and Red Sox can hire Hinch, right?
“Hi, Jim Crane for Bruce Bochy? Sure, I’ll hold.”
Pete Rose should be in the Hall.
…where they keep the kids on detention.
Beltran is “clear.“ But, do the Mets react or hide their heads in the sand.
MLB is a joke. Teams have been stealing signs since the first game was played, using any means possible. Each team is responsible to create signs that can’t be stolen. Just like each player has to be cognizant of their actions possible tipping the next play/pitch. In typical MLB fashion they pretend to be outraged so a few guys are made to fall on the sword. Just like drugs and racism in earlier generations, forms of human trafficking, PEDs and now use of digital technologies/media, there has always been a sub culture in the sport that is ugly and dark. Teams and players that spew the holier than thou line need to shut the hell up. The hypocrisy for public relations sake is beyond pathetic. Lunhow is responsible for actions of any knucklehead in his organization but let’s not pretend this group is an different from how teams have operated in the last 140 years…
“I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!”
Lol !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! great line from a great movie
dynamite drop in monty
The Astros went beyond typical attempts to steal signs. The commissioner warned all teams not to use electronic means to steal signs. Did the Astros stop after that warning went out? Nope. They kept doing it through the playoffs.
MLB is a joke because…then nothing you said makes that point any more clear. I wanted to follow your argument, but the “they’ve always done this” argument is so weak that it’s unfortunate you thought someone would think it’s interesting. There is bad stuff going on, and your solution is “how dare you show outrage and try to solve the problem?” I already said that I don’t like that they have subjective, unclear standards at times, but I can’t deny that they haven’t taken strict actions against all the things you mention and more. That sort of view is just unintelligent and ignorant. PEDs—while I wish they would ban people that used—they have Olympic style testing and players get caught every season. Racism—fans have been permanently banned from stadiums for saying racist stuff. While sign stealing is part of the game, using technology and staff to do it is a completely different level of sign stealing, like you actually know what they’re throwing nearly every time, and that’s fair. But they all do it? No they don’t. Facts matter.
They should just ban it entirely. No skill baseball wise is involved. To easy to cheat just ban it altogether and police it more.
Drugs, racism, gambling, human trafficking, cheating…these are demerits of human beings, not on the sport of baseball. MLB is many times reactive (not proactive) to these demerits, but often does so before anyone else (i.e. Jackie Robinson). Getting live feeds from a rogue camera and banging on a trashcan is far different than in-game action of an aggressive runner at 2nd base trying to read the catchers signs. Not even close.
No one mentioning it… How does this affect arbitration for Astros players?
Based on what I know now, I’m really impressed with Jim Crane. This is the only way you can start to put it behind you – take immediate action against those most culpable. Crane had likely already made up his mind that this is the action he would take if MLB found the team indeed used technology to steal signs.
At least one of these guys will get a job within the next 3 years. Everyone allowed the steroids crew to get a second chance. That’s what our sports world has turned into. People make huge mistakes and people are allowed back in once they sever their time. Michael Vick is a prime example of this. Pete Rose and the guy from Atlanta are the only ones I can think of that haven’t gotten a second chance and most ppl believe Pete Rose should be allowed in the Hall of Fame and his ban lifted.
I don’t agree with anything they did.
Serious professional sports will always guard and protect the integrity of their sport, and cheating is a constant threat with all the reward involved in winning. Hinch went from a rising star and future HOF manager to banned and finding a new career. I’m glad there are serious consequences. That makes the MLB better and more legit, regardless of what you immoral people say tickles your entertainment thrills.
Serious professional sports would in theory guard and protect the integrity of their sport, but I fear that is slowly diminishing over time starting when Don King showed you can make a fortune rigging fights, and David Stern built the NBA from nothing to what it is now through allowing officiating that was more questionable than every sport except for professional boxing.
At least MLB hasn’t gone those routes yet, but they have shown that they will ignore a lot for the sake of money, which, to borrow from Star Wars, is a path to the Dark Side.
Great point. They compromise for money and they battle politics to do the guarding. I used to be a big boxing fan until I saw how refs get paid off or persuaded to rule a certain way “for the benefit of the sport.”
Agreed. Yes, I used to be a big fan of boxing too, but then you see how many gifts or obvious fixes helped big names on nights that they deserved to lose. Same thing with David Stern’s version of the NBA. Yes, they try to build it as what’s best for the sport. In boxing, to beat the champion, you have to knock him out. In the NBA, they have “benefit of the doubt” for the stars. In the end, obviously if guys like Ali, Larry Holmes, Sugar Ray Leonard, on and on to guys like Floyd Mayweather, etc. would have lost on nights that they deserved to, the “greatness” wouldn’t have been the same. Obviously in the NBA, if the likes of Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, and many others weren’t put on the free-throw line a gajillion times and the star on the opposing team put into foul trouble on nights that the legends had bad nights and would lose, their careers would not be as legendary. It’s all about the money, and sadly, I believe that all of the professional sports would drop the integrity in a second for the sake of the “almighty dollar”, especially when we’ve already seen them ignore so many questionable things or punished with slaps on the wrist, like MLB with the PED issues (that I believe is still there with a new product) or with the NFL with their tolerance of the Patriots continuing with offenses so many times without setting the example by banning every coach and player involved (Belichick and Brady among them). I’ll just enjoy MLB until it becomes like the rigged sports.
What about the players asks Joe Jackson?
I agree that they deserved to be fired but so do all the other managers in the past that turned a blind eye to cheaters like bonds and arod and other peds players. MLB cannot condone one form of cheating and severely punish another form. It is all cheating!!!!
I agree with you on that note which is why the MLB Hall of Fame is a joke it has the #1 pusher for Steriods in the Hall in Bud Selig, it has 3 former managers that steriods were rampant during their watch in Tony La Russa, Joe Torre & Bobby Cox yet it keeps out Clemens, Sosa, McGwire & Bonds because of the integrity of the game.
You have a Hall of Fame Pitcher in Juan Marichal that attack another ballplayer with a bat like a lunatic, you have two knuckleball pitchers that admitted to using every trick in the book to doctored the baseball in Phil Niekro & Gaylord Perry.
You have another pitcher Whitey Ford that admitted in his book during his career “Ford explains how he fashioned a ”mud” or ”dirt” ball by discreetly applying saliva to one side of a ball and then rubbing it into dirt while grabbing for the rosin bag. He recalls having a ring made with a hidden rasp on which he could cut baseballs. And he tells of a concoction of baby oil, turpentine and rosin, used to make his fingers sticky, that he concealed in a roll-on deodorant bottle he kept in his jacket on the bench”
And let’s not turn a blind eye on CAl Ripken and his Games Streak but since he was an ambassador for the league things went unnoticed.
Can’t catch everyone. That’s an impossible expectation. But because some have gotten away with it does not mean we should turn a blind eye to those who get caught. In life, so many people break the law. That’s NOT delegitimization of catching criminals, but rather the opposite.
I can’t believe they don’t know which players are involved, otherwise they will all be considered guilty
stan lee the manly
Someone again tell me how much worse off the Cardinals are for parting ways with Lunhow…
No championships, none in sight.
Only the second most in MLB. Clown.
stan lee the manly
I would rather they not have any than be pulled into a cheating scandal as bad as this. Not worth it.
No Cardinals fan should be spewing any crap on here when your team broke laws by hacking into computers. Go to bed and shut up.
Wow, just wow and Cora is next for sure.
I know he left after his son was demoted, but Nolan Ryan chose a good time to leave.
Slim-y Jim Crane wasn’t EVEN INTERVIEWED by investigators?
What does that tell ya.
(That’s a statement, not a question.)
They were doing this out in the open in 2017. Why did the MLB only start investigating in 2019? Makes zero sense. The entire set up is featured in the World Series DVD released 10/17! Soft.
Yeah youre right, people should always react instantaneously in a black and white manner to every possible scenario. Please never research and make sure youre doing the right thing, nope, Yankeefan24 says you take too long to react so it never happened in his book.
Average IQ of poster in this thread: 78
Didn’t touch our championship, didn’t touch our players, could have been worse. And the best analytics team in the game is still in place. We will be fine. Honestly, the bigger impact on our 2020 success came from payroll/luxury tax limitations. At least we still have the division.
If all fans share your hubris for this situation, I feel sorry for all of you.
I hate for that cloud to be hanging over my head as a player. The Astros will likely flop in defending their division.
They’ll do just fine. The really galling thing is the team didn’t even need to cheat to do well. It probably only won them a handful of games, and a hefty cost to their reputation.
You wont be fine, I hate you, everyone hates you, everyone hates your coward loser team and all your ROTTEN fans! You never won **** in my books, the Astros are a coward franchise and they should expel them from the league – you are bad at being a sports fan. You never grew up emotionally past the age 15 and it shows.
Strikefour, people don’t go by your book and rightfully so. After all, I remember you having unrealistic expectations.
Astros have ZERO titles. And always will, because you ain’t winning again.
Oh no strike four is crying like a baby and hates the Astros. Okay time to kick the out of baseball. What a joke you are. Oh by the way who won the World Series in 2017?? Oh the Houston Astros did. So you just sound butthurt again? Oh
Take a ****ing pill you moron. I’m not even an Astros fan! Doesn’t change that the team is still stacked with No.1 draft picks & stud pitching. I’ve heard people say you’re an idiot before on here StrikeFour. Little wonder why!
MLB is only interested in “integrity” when the golden goose is threatened. The hypocrisy is outrageous. If you want to clean up the game, they have a whole lot MORE to do.
Breaking news: long island ducks hire AJ Hinch as manager
How about taking the world series trophy away! Cheaters
Ah, the armpit.Go rangers!!
Astros are a 3rd place team!
Lol, I’ll take that bet
“You’ve reached the voicemail of Jeff Lunhow, please leave a message and I will return your call shortly”
“Jeff? This is Bill… Uhhh Belichick. Your suspension doesn’t affect your NFL eligibility, right (fingers crossed)?”
Cora next one to go, and give the Dodgers the 17 and 18 championships. Now we want to know which players are involved and what’s there penalty?
Who’s to say the Yankees or Indians don’t win it if the Astros didn’t cheat. I know that is drastic, but not out of the realm.
Good luck with that.
MLB should also be embarrassed that a team was able to do this so easily, without any fear of being caught by MLB.
guess MLB cant make them take down World Series Banner or put an asterisk next to the title in the books.
Lol not the books?!!!!!!! Google who who the mlb championship in 2017 and it will forever say THE HOUSTON ASTROS. but wait no asterisk?? Nope only in the book
“Dang it, I told them to not bang on the recycling… ONLY THE TRASH!!!” Lunhow was said at the press briefing.
AL West is wide open!
Ho Hum thats a joke of a penalty —
So much Astro hate going on here… The MLB is a crap show, and highly hypocritical. There has been proof that most team use technology to steal signs… the Yankees are not excluded from that group, but seem to be overlooked in this kind of investigation.
Found the Astros fan. You are so quick to point fingers at others
Nope, no proof, or even evidence, to suggest that most teams use technological means to steal signs.
What proof do you have? Provide us with a video tape with this kind of behavior! The Astro video was available and incontrovertible.
The report said that both the Yankees and Red Sox used similar systems in 2017. The big penalty fr the Astros is supposedly because the Astros continued using the system in September after Manfred sent out a memo about electronic sign stealing.
The Astros deserve the hate, and you do too for defending it. Loser.
Hahahaha…. the Astros are still your 2017 World Series Champs. They will be good for years longer. The Astros line up this year is better than any other team in baseball. If they can scrape together a reasonable pitching staff, they’ll win the West and be in the playoffs again.
So to you and all the other haters… SUCK IT!!!!
Hire some respectable replacements, Buck etc.
I wonder how long into the season the Astros get booed relentlessly by opposing fans? I knew they wouldn’t touch the players, but it bugs me that thearrogant showman Astros players get away without much punishment, other than an unofficial * next to the 2017 season
Yeah the only * is in the minds of crybabies.
Or ya know, realists. But don’t worry, you’ll always have competing in ‘05–when the White Sox blanked you 4-0.
Who cares about 2005 they won the championship in 2017!!!!! Wooooo go Astros lunhow and hinch are the greatest!!!!!
We already have the unofficial * next to the Rockets’ championships because of Jordan, so why should this one be any different?
Harden-Wrestbrook-mvps, had Jordan not retire that first time and the Bulls face the Rockets in 1994 finals, I bet the Rockets would’ve beaten the Bulls in 7. Houston was a bad match for the Bulls during the first half of the 90’s more so than any other team, Knicks included. Also, having an asterisk because of Jordan is a bunch of nonsense. Basketball was played before and after Jordan.
The funny thing is that there will only be like 5-6 players from that 2017 team still on them. That would be weird if you were a player brought in after and just totally hated against lol.
anyone who thinks this slap on the wrist will make the Astros a 3rd place team doesnt know much about baseball — as I said this penalty is a joke
Cora should be banned from mlb. Astros and Red Sox should have their World Series titles taken away. Dodgers should be compensated with the Astros and Red Sox draft picks for the next couple of years. That would be fair
It’s almost like the commissioner dgaf about what you think should happen…
Teams like the Detroit Tigers are models of playing by the rules. The quality of their stadium, personnel and winning record reflect their commitment. We in the Detroit are privileged to have such a team in our midsts
Same thing better happen in Boston since the whole thing was masterminded by Alex Cora. Let them have their hearts torn out too!!
“Hearts torn out” a bit melodramatic don’t you think?
Good, an actual punishment!
Now that the owner fired its GM and Manager, MLB needs to come down heavy and order a player dispersal of every Astro player to each and every major league ballclub. Let their current roster play out in 2020, but at end of season the club will have to start from scratch to rebuild their roster. There will be no draft picks in the first three rounds for the next 3 years and a limited number of free agents that aren’t top tier caliber. They will not be allowed to sign international players for at least three years. To allow the franchise to continue be a member of the major league community each MLB club will be ordered to provide players – at least two each – from current rosters to help in the rebuild effort. This should be a painful lesson to any ballclub that would ever condone such an egregious act against the sport. The NCAA killed the Southern Methodist football program back in the late 80’s when recruiting scandals came to light incriminating both coaches, boosters, and those of the University. For 15 years the program languished until just recently when it had finally emerged as a competitive football team.
You are Freaking nuts.
Astros and the Sox should be stripped of their titles!!
The Yankees were caught stealing signs in 2017 too.
That unofficial * is toxic—almost worse than any formal punishment.
As a Sox fan I agree 100% screw cheaters!!!
Jeff Luhnow will be hired as an assistant GM (or maybe even an actual GM) next year. He didn’t come up with the sign-stealing idea and teams would love to have a guy that turned that organization’s fortunes around on their side.
Now batting, Joey Cora.
Depending on what they found with the Red Sox, something equivalent will be worse. At least the Astros have a farm system and a young team in the hunt. Losing 4 top picks will hurt but the Red Sox losing even 2 would be a DISASTER.
Oops. Alex. My bad, but not AJ Hinch bad.
Let’s see if the Red Sox are a class organization and how they handle Cora
Hinch always kind of rubbed me as an arrogant guy but didn’t a lot of the players partake in this cheating too? There’s cheating all over baseball (sign stealing, PEDs, etc) but unfortunately for Luhnow & Hinch they got caught. It is pretty sad when coaches and front offices start encouraging the cheating though!
Well…..well….how the turntables.
Can never go wrong with an office reference. Great job sir
I like waking up in the morning to the smell of bacon cooking.
i apologize for the rambling nature of this. my thoughts have been shifting since the news broke…
the repercussions feel a little underwhelming to me. i wasn’t expecting the ‘stros title to be vacated or any player suspensions, but i was looking for more than a couple year long suspensions and loss of picks. ideally, i’d have loved to see ol’ rob drop the swift hammer of justice with lifetime bans, vacating altuve’s mvp, stripping of picks and/or int’l signings, and perhaps even banning the astro’s from postseason contention for the next couple seasons. that’s a harsh approach, but at least it’s something more than discouraging similar future infractions.
at the end of the day, this is both fortunate and unfortunate for baseball. everyone loves a villain (and a scandal), but no one wants a black mark like this on the game. long term, i suppose manfred’s goal was to make this incident as much of a footnote as possible and let it fade from public discourse as the years go by. in the short term, it does little to improve upon the narrative that he’s a spineless shill who refuses to take any decisive action.
Not stunning at all. They were both suspended w/o pay for the year. The Astros need replacements, so just move on from these two. Both of them will have a job in 2021 somewhere.
None of this hurts the Astros much. Look at their roster. They will still be a playoff team in 2020. They have a solid farm system with their top 8 guys ending 2019 at AA or higher. And we know they made bank from winning the 2017 World Series. Half a million more tickets sold for 2018, all that TV money, all the sponsorships.
Hopefully they are blackballed forever and never step foot on another MLB field!
HAHAHAHA… Such magical butt hurt from Hollywood.
Think the Astros Cheated in game 7 too?
Ding! Ding! Ding! An idiot used the term “butt hurt”!
I’m a huge Sox fan always have been and feel Cora should be canned and 2018 has an * as far as I’m concerned. So sad if found guilty of not then thanks for the World Series win!!!
Will Cora be fired at Boston if he gets a one year or more suspension?
It’s bs that the actual cheaters are getting away with this. That’s my only gripe about this. I guess we can just put an asterisk on their individual achievements
One thing I don’t get is they said this was only for 2017 and 2018. I know I was hearing that trash can in last year’s playoffs against the Yankees.
2017 only by the Astros.
And here I am thinking JV was the final piece of the puzzle for the 2017 Astros. Silly naive me.
I believe the AL West is anybody’s to win (except the Mariners of course).
The A’s are head and shoulders ahead of everyone by a long, long way now.
I disagree, but we’ll see how the season plays out. They are good but the Angels are better than last year as are the Rangers and the Astros are worse and steeped in controversy. I think it’s the most even the west has been in a long time.
Better then last year with a much more promising rotation, but I would put them in some sort of parity with the current HOU until we see otherwise. I would say the LAA are a good ways back having added like 4 WAR to a team that was 20 games out, and still has no pitching staff to speak of. Tex is better, but unless they add JD and another piece or two they are maybe just behind LAA. I would say 4 .500 teams is a possibility. OAK and HOU are still the teams to beat with the others lagging behind by a decent ways still.
The Angels have pitching, ChapVac. We picked up 2 durable starters and Ohtani should be back in action. I believe Canning and Sandoval will only get better and if Heaney can finally start healthy, he can be a workhorse. Add an increase of runs saved with arguably a top three best infield in baseball, Then add Adell in right field and to the lineup early on. You have him, Trout and Upton (meh) to back up that infield. I think the Angels will be a contender. Of course, I’m an Angels fan so I’m biased. We will know as the season progresses.
I think our weakest spots now are Pujols (although he has close to 200 RBIs over the past 2 seasons) and a couple of inconsistent bullpen pieces.
Second worst pitching team by fWAR last season ahead of only the Orioles added two starters projected to be worth a combined 3WAR. They still have one of the worst rotations in MLB and a fairly avg to bad Pen.
If you add WAR to Ohtani for pitching you have to subtract the 2-3 games a week his bat is out of the lineup to get that, and any potential pitching injury that removes his bat, so even post TJ his WAR could be near last season. I also think Ohtani is messing with regular turns in the rotation and may be causing other starters to not sign.
Added around 4 WAR at 3B that doesnt do much for a team that finished 25-35 games back last season. They also have next to no pitching depth if any injuries occur, and dont seem to want to trade the only two prospects the team has that will bring back a real arm.
They needed like 14WAR added to even get in OAK ballpark, especially when you consider OAK getting full seasons from Luzardo, Manaea, Puk, Montas, and Murphy, who all missed at least half of last season but are clear upgrades over what they are replacing further development from the young players, and a KD that looks like he did till he busted his side playing LF in PIT and was never the same the rest of the year. OAK has legit upside on a back to back 97 win team, while LAA added two 4-5 SP to the second worst pitching staff in baseball last season. OAK has like 4 of there SP prospects in the upper levels for depth on top of swing guys like Bassitt and Megden, and LAA has none.
Expecting clean returns for Ohtani and others, while also getting steps forward from all young pitchers, better health from a guy who has never been able to stay healthy, and no injuries exposing the extreme lack of depth is asking for all the 5% odds to hit for you at once. The best case scenario leads to a back of the top half rotation, and they are equally as likely to have the worst pitching staff in baseball that doesnt pitch in Baltimore.
I’d have to say… HONESTLY. That this will be the standings to end next year.
The rangers beat out the Angels by 7 games, and their record (the rangers) will be 87 – 75. A’s young starters will develop, and the A’s will win 100 games flat. Astros come in 95 – 67 1st WC. M’s are there.
I appreciate that you’re a Rangers fan but I don’t think you’re crediting the Angels for being vastly improved going into 2020. I think the division is more even than it’s been in years. It may shake out that way, but I believe it will be close.
Imagine thinking Julio Teheran and Dylan Bundy are going to beat Frankie Montas and Sean Manaea? Let alone Luzardo, Puk and Fiers. Angels are a massive, massive joke this offseason. They got the #1 position player and somehow won’t have it effect the standings. Losers. The get Stras or Cole and then things change but they didn’t…but act like Julio Teheran is the same as Gerrit Cole now? lol clowns.
What has just Luzardo and Puk done in MLB? Were you a Todd Van Poppel fan back in they day and go off of hype? Or do you worship Money Ball? BTW how many championships has Money Ball won? Angels improved, they will score runs and their pitchers are healthy on the bump and in the pen. I don’t see too much difference between the A’s, Angels, and Rangers, 2-4 right. It is a toss up to me. Wouldn’t surprise me if one of those teams dethroned the Astros this year. You say the Angels get Cole and things change, well the Astros lost Cole……
Do the math and show the improvement! By WAR they are minimally improved at best who have moved from the bottom 2 in pitching WAR to the bottom 5. You dont win titles starting Bundy in games that matter. Team finished 4th 25 games back of a playoff spot. At best you can add maybe maybe 7 WAR to the team total, which still leaves them far far behind OAK/HOU.
So, in your mind Chap, teams succeed or fail based solely on WAR. That’s all you ever talk about.
AJ Puk 2-0 11.1IP 10.32 K/9 3.18 ERA and he was noticably better after his first couple outings when the team stopped having him only throw FB/SL and let him use his full 5 pitchs.
Luzardo 12IP 12k/9 2.25 BB/9 1.5ERA and 3 shutout innings in the WCG.
Yes they will both be on an innings limit, but Bassitt was better the Fiers anyways and could start in the rotation to limit one of them early on. Both top 50 prospects who are lefties that throw 97+.
OAK has won 97 in back to back years with Brett Anderson and Co they have so much additional upside compared to the team that was 25 games better then LAA. They also have like 5 more top 30 SP prospects in the upper minors for depth, and we see what they can do with Ejax and Co if they need it. LAA cant remember the last season that only 7SP made starts for them. Who starts when Ohtani has a hiccup in ST? How about if Heany breaks again? Or when Canning or Sandoval regress like most LAA SP prospects have? You have 5 SP that give you like the 23rd best rotation in MLB if healthy and go back down to Orioles territory after one injury.
LAA – 5.8 WAR pitching staff thats added at most 5 WAR with Ohtani before considering the AB WAR your losing from last seasons value.
OAK – 18.7 WAR pitching staff while giving innings to the likes of Bailey and Anderson instead of Luz/Puk.
HOU – 23 WAR pitching staff – They are right in OAK territory with all the FA subtractions for them.
LAA are sooooooo so so far behind still.on pitching. They also trailed OAK by 8.1 fWAR on the position player side. OAK has a top 100 C filling in at its weakest position from last year. Im not even sure that the LAA will beat OAK on batter WAR in 2020 since they have improved but OAK has a ton of year 1-2 budding stars with upside. The Matts can get better as can the Lazer. Nuese, Mateo, Fowler, Barretto are all MLB ready pieces that give multiple options at the teams only hole and depth at most positions. Same goes for the fact OAK has like 10 players that can play multiple positions so injuries dont cause the same drop off when you just replace a bench player and shift everyone up by one. Your best bench player gets more AB and the replacement fills in at the bottom of the bench.
Oh and if OAK wasnt a big enough threat HOU had more position player WAR last season then LAA had in total team WAR, and all of those players are back. Two super teams one ascending one descending both near peak and LAA 25 games and 20 WAR behind to start the winter.
WAR measures what already happened it is not projections. Also WAR informs most projections because it is a good way to determine future performance.
Are you saying Trout isnt worth 10WAR most years? Seems like his value is pretty well established.
Sure WAR has its down sides, for instance OAK pitch to contact guys seem like they can consistently outperform theyre peripherals because of the home park and OAK having the top defenders in baseball at 1B SS 3B by UZR or DRS in 2019. OAK had a team ERA in the top 5 but one SP had a -5 k/9 so they werent making any friends with advanced metrics out of SP, but great in run prevention. Guess what the mediocre to bad SP may be gone, but the infield defense hasnt gone anywhere so expect the team with 13WAR advantage in pitching to keep over performing the peripherals even when the peripherals improve.
So yeah WAR is imperfect, but do you really want to try and argue that the LAA with a 5.12 team ERA last season werent one of the worst pitching staffs in MLB?
BET MONEY OAK/HOU BEAT LAA IN POSITION WAR 2020.
BET EVEN MORE ON LAA HAVING THE WORST PITCHING STAFF IN THE DIVISION BY WAR 2020!
Wow Chapman WAR is your argument? lol. You can’t comprehend what the Angels
have done this offseason to see they are vastly improved? They have a healthy pitching staff going into 2020, added a stud 3B to add to a good offense, and got rid of a bad manager and replaced him with a good one. 2019 was a disaster for the pitching staff, warm bodies and prospects were thrown out on the bump because the team had so many injuries. And unfortunately the loss of Skaggs which effected the team emotionally. La Stella, Trout, Upton, Simmons, etc. injured and missing time are healthy and back for 2020. Your WAR or math you’re trying to make relevant does not account for these improvements. And WAR is a flawed stat that people put too much value on. I’ll just keep to the win loss column, the one stat that really means something. 25 games out of a playoff spot last year, well this is 2020 the teams will not play the same and have the same records. And I didn’t say the Angels were going to win a title (WS), only said I wouldn’t be surprised if the A’s, Angels, or Rangers took the division from the Astros.
K win loss. LAA havent won more games then lost since 2016 when Eppler took over. Keeping pitchers with health problems healthy hasnt been there strong suit either.
Ohtani loses AB to gain IP so he is somewhat a wash since he wont pitch more then like 25 starts and like 400AB. Could have injury or performance issues related to the TJ return as well.
Bundy is a #5 SP who improved his K/9 while slipping in other stats. He leaves Camden which is a plus, but his velo has been continuing to drop season by season. he is projected for like 2 WAR.
Heany has never shown he can stay healthy and has missed time in almost every one of the last 5 seasons.
Sandoval/Canning are interesting, but need to prove they can take a step forward.
Tehran has been replacement level for like 3 seasons straight and is projected as like a 1 WAR back end starter.
They have nobody that is a clear number 1-3 starter yet, and Ohtani will never pitch frequently enough to rack up IP or make short starts in a playoff series. Heany has shown 1-3 stuff at times when healthy, but injuries effect performance as well as IP. You probably were super high on Cahill/Harvey last season too. They have already done this dance. Also who is your 7-12SP, because they have nobody, and with the injury likelihood of several of those players they will be filling in with below replacement pitchers for any injuries. Also the Pen isnt close to a contenders Pen.
They upgraded at a position that already was productive last season, and with Rendon/Simmons for the full year you will be taking AB from a productive player to give them AB. I would have far preferred with the teams holes if they had paid the money to Rendon to Wheeler and Grandal. Those two would have upgraded the teams holes far more for less total money and similar money over the next 4 years with both paid. Other then patching the rotation with bubble gum and bailing wire, and Rendon is the only signed player that represents a clear upgrade anywhere.
Love or hate WAR it is a metric that applies to pitching and position players, and is the best we have at overall value. LAA are to far behind to see value in marginal upgrades. They have the worst farm in baseball the second Adell hits his AB count to lose eligibility so they cant add reinforcements. I personally think WAR underrates OAK players a lot and they constantly for years have outperformed pitching peripherals. So if anything the flaws in WAR may undervalue the size of gap between the 97 back to back win A’s team and 72 win LAA. Show me another metric that more accurately tracks the 25 win difference between the two teams last season. They will project as like a 10-18 team in MLB. OAK is younger with all the stars on the upward side of the WAR aging bell curve so they have upside over the massive advantage that the LAA are trying to close, and at best they have added like 7 WAR to a team that needs way more then that.
They were a worse team position wise then both contenders in the division by a wide margin, and Castro/Rendon dont close that gap. Yet they are far closer to getting comparable production there then on the pitching side.
ChapVac – not sure why you are so adamant about trying to convince everyone the Angels stink. Give it a rest. You don’t follow them so you think you know their future based on one flawed stat on paper. If you followed them, you would know Maddon plans to bat Ohtani even on days he pitches. You would also know they don’t have the worst farm in baseball. That’s a tired argument from 4 years ago. Your conjecture is not fact.
You’re right, Castro and Rendon don’t close the gap. But Castro, Rendon, Bundy, Teheran, Ohtani, Adell, plus Maddon and Callaway, et al, do close the gap. It’s a team sport. Enjoy the season.
* Side- Note– Has anyone heard Stan Kasten or Friedman up in arms about these cheating scandals?
Sort of alarming but fits the bill to a T –
Im sure theres a quote out there but on a whole it doesnt seem to rattle them that much- I dont think Id show that level of reservation given the circumstances…. but then again I DO have a soul still
2017 Championship is not legit now !
The Yankees were warned for using the Yes network for cheating with a camera in center field a couple years ago. Hopefully they stopped when they were told but you can bet more investigations are happening. I would be shocked if the Red Sox do not fire Cora but you never know.
Can’t fire him if he gets suspended for life!
Agreed. Suspend him for more than one year; that’s nothing for these guys. Someone will take a flyer on them, just like with the domestic abusers.
The NYY were also cited for using the bullpen phone to relay signs. Because Torre was in charge of the case a small fine was deemed appropriate.
ATTN ALL FANS: no more “Kershaw chokes in playoffs” narratives, give the guy an effin break, he just lost two rings because of cheating.
Kershaw chokes during the playoffs.
Coward post and coward likes on it. You are worthless posters, go away.
He’s 9-11 with a 4.43 ERA in the playoffs, the numbers don’t lie. So he’s definitely a choker and was one even before he got to appear in the World Series, which largely had to due with his consistent playoff failures.
Did the Nats cheat in 19? Pretty sure he cost his team there. The Cards in 13 & 14? Cubs in 16?
so does this mean the Dodgers finally win a World Series since 1988 ??????
2017 World Series Winner Houston Astros (*)
Okay….who had the Houston Manager to be the first Manager to be fired in 2020 in their baseball pool ?
Houston will be forced to pick a Black Manager by MLB……
Dusty Baker has his bags packed for the interview and hiring this Friday !
They have many greats to choose from.
Feb 2020 – Met’s fire Carlos Beltran as more information of his involvement comes out.
March 2020 – Wilpons hold press conference to announce Beltrans replacement:
“Ladies and gentlemen, members of the press, and all New York Mets fans everywhere – we are pleased to announce the hiring of AJ Hinch as the new manager in waiting for your New York Mets.”
Well considering that Hinch is banned from any and all MLB activities for a year this is a stupid joke.
Astros should hire Pete Rose as their next manager………oh wait !
First, PEDs are not analogous to this cheating. Multiple teams had PED users (league-wide) whereas this one team cheated from top down to win the WS at all costs. Moreover, PEDs were speculated in many instances, not proven. That said, all cheaters discovered should be severely punished, including Red Sox.
Also, WS should be vacated. Cannot award it to Dodgers because there’s no way to know who would’ve gone for AL if Astros hadn’t cheated.
If they find out that Yankees did the same thing and have proof, fire ‘em and levy heavy penalties.
The reason they need to act more harshly than the NFL is because this isn’t the NFL. This sport needs to maintain its integrity; the same integrity it almost lost completely when the PED scandal broke.
Another example of how New York and Boston are above the law.
How does this mean they’re above the law?
We haven’t seen what is happening to Cora and Boston yet.
Saint Louis needs to come clean before they are caught.
Why would you think st. Louis needs to come clean? My cards have been very mediocre the last couple years, what stands out to make you think they cheated, or are you just a troll?
Maybe you could expand on your libelous comment. I read and watch all things cardinals and have never heard or seen anything about the cards stealing signs off the field or electronically.
Cards clearly weren’t stealing signs. Just watch Bader get k’d on outside sliders time after time.
Love reading these comments from baseball journos criticizing the Astros for “trying too hard” and “putting winning above all else”. It’s PROFESSIONAL baseball, what do you think this is? Can you imagine media reaction if people trivialized their profession and said “you know what guys? Journalism should be about FUN!”
Media coverage of baseball has always been left-leaning but this is too much. A bunch of geeks who have never played sports in their lives trying to bring an external system of ethics into the game. Sign stealing from 2nd base is ok but using a monitor isn’t? Why not? And as media doesn’t want you to know, using technology to steal signs is UBIQUITOUS in MLB, guaranteed. But who cares if the Royals also steal signs? They suck so there is no story there. This is just another example of media creating a story (literally Evan Drellich, fired from covering both the Astros and Red Sox, started this investigation) and controlling public opinion. Sad.
This argument is idiotic. MLB rules do not prohibit stealing signs. MLB rules state: “under no circumstance may electronic equipment or devices be used for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying other information designed to give a Club a competitive advantage.” You also can’t use binoculars to steal signs. If you can’t figure out why this is wrong, that’s on you.
The commissioner sent a memo to every team in Sept. 2017 – do not use electronic equipment during games to steal signs.
Did the Astros stop?
Nope. And they kept doing it in the postseason.
This has nothing to do with Evan Drellich or any other nonsense point you brought up and everything to do with breaking a specific rule.
Not only that but they even changed the methodology of their sign stealing to make it more efficient, less detectable, and easier to communicate said stolen sign to the hitter. That’s a comprehensive plan, not a mistake. Now AJ Hunch is going on an apology tour? Ugh, cue the violin and bring in the next team to hire him
Its sportsmanship diotiay. Your taught as a young child when you first learn the game that winning the wrong way isnt winning. The old phrase cheaters never prosper comes to mind when you factor in the players all walking on punishment.
If you are blessed to be paid millions of dollars to play a childs game, you are expected to comport yourself with behavior befitting a representative of our nations pastime. When I grew up competing in youth sports we had seasonal sportsmanship awards that were considered an honor to receive.
If you cant win fair you dont deserve to win, and MLB has a responsibility to ensure the fairest game possible. I for one will love the day when robot strike zones stop calling favorable calls for stars or catchers that cheat! The Integrity of the game is important to gamblers, fans, and children who emulate the behavior of the players the idolize. Sports is supposed to be a contest where on the most level playing field possible you determine who actually is the best there is!
Thousands of hours of video is available on any pitcher, player, game from many various angles. Players study this in preparing for games.
So if, hypothetically, they notice something regarding pitch signs, wouldn’t that be a violation according to the rule?
It’s something that happens in this day and age when technological devices are everywhere. I understand it went too far in this case but people saying all these things about life bans and stripping of titles and acting like no other team does this is ridiculous.
They should all have several different sets of signs that they use so while you could map all of them by watching old tape you wouldnt know what they were doing in that game without watching the feed during that game.
If you ban teams from signaling pitches to batters all together this solves the problem of technology constantly being a temptation to cheat. Nobody should steal signs at all its a stupid thing to allow to begin with. If you guess the pitch right good for you otherwise you should be able to hit as good as you can without help.
“Media coverage of baseball has always been left-leaning “
Astros got Off easy! What a disgrace! WS title should have been removed! What an outrage! Pathetic commissioner!!
Yeah, but unfortunately, unlike College sports, teams professional sports teams caught cheating have never been stripped of championships.
They can’t strip them of the WS Manny. It’s impossible to say they would have lost but for the cheating. It will always have an asterisk.
Maybe the MLB should start voiding the contract given out to Altuve and Bregman because they might not be as good as people think they are with out cheating!?!?
Whats the point in that
Fantastic article, Jeff. Well written and a really good read
Too bad they can’t be stripped of their tainted title, but this is still pretty dang severe, though. So yeah, I’ll take it.
They should move the team to Montreal as their punishment.
Nah………how about Mars !
This was pretty much expected. What I find the most interesting is the lack of outrage by other MLB teams front office / ownership. This leads me to believe many more teams than the Astros and Red Sox were involved with stealing signs using technology. And there is a collective holding their breath by other teams ownerships.
I would imagine Red Sox FO is currently checking on potential managerial canidates as Cora will be at least suspended for a year.
Beltran was a player at the time so he MIGHT ecsape a suspension.
How will they ever recover from the loss of two late first round picks and two second round picks..
That’s still 4 high draft picks with the possibility of even more. Remember, if they sign any player with draft compensation attached and “lose” a pick they weren’t even going to be able to use, it carries to the next year. It costs them draft choices and will impact their free agent signings for a couple years.
There will also be a stigma attached to the Astros that will affect players desire to play there.