The Orioles are expected to be busy this winter, as they look to add to a young roster that is showing signs of life after a lengthy rebuild. Left-handed hitting and pitching is top of the list for Baltimore, and Roch Kubatko of MASN notes that the Orioles want “multiple veteran starting pitchers”.
It’s already been reported that the Orioles aren’t expected to do business with the top tier of free agents, ruling them out of the likes of Justin Verlander and Jacob deGrom. Instead, they could be aggressive in going after a couple of second and third tier starters to supplement the current crop of pitchers.
As things stand, Dean Kremer, Kyle Bradish, Tyler Wells and Austin Voth are four starting options on the roster. Kremer worked to a 3.23 ERA through 21 starts, and while a low BABIP helped him out, there’s enough to suggest he’ll get a chance in the rotation again. Voth is arbitration eligible for the first time and projected to make a modest $2MM salary in 2023. He had a 3.04 ERA in 83 innings after coming over from Washington, and also figures to be part of the rotation.
The other clear option on the roster currently is Grayson Rodriguez, Baltimore’s top pitching prospect. He’s yet to make an appearance in the big leagues, but Kubatko is predicting him to make their opening day rotation. The just-turned 23-year-old threw 69 2/3 innings at Triple-A this year, punching out batters 35.8% of the time against a 7.7% walk rate to post a 2.20 ERA.
Should Kremer, Voth and Rodriguez take three spots in the opening day rotation, that’d leave Wells and Bradish as depth options (and both have minor league options) and two spots open for external additions. John Means is the other internal name to consider, but he had Tommy John surgery in April and it’s not clear when he could feature in 2023. So who could the Orioles be in play for?
With a right-handed-heavy provisional rotation, it’d make sense for them to pursue a lefty option. Carlos Rodon is the top option available there, but he falls into the top tier that it seems the Orioles are reluctant to shop in, so instead they could look to add Jose Quintana, a veteran who enjoyed a terrific bounce back season with the Pirates and Cardinals, and would add valuable leadership to a young Baltimore clubhouse. Sean Manaea struggled with the Padres in 2022 but he’d been a reliable arm in Oakland prior to that.
Elsewhere, Chris Bassitt and Jameson Taillon represent solid right-handed options. Both were reliable mid-rotation arms for the Mets and Yankees respectively, and would solidify the rotation. Bassitt turned down a qualifying offer, so the Orioles would have to sacrifice their third-highest pick in the 2023 draft should they go down that route.
Rondon makes a lot of sense for BAL and vice versa. Black hole LF, great young core and room to add another 2 maybe 3 quality FA’s the next year or 2. Good time to be a BAL fan.
I don’t see them deviating from their plan despite a surprise season of success. I think they’re a couple years away from considering big money guys like him
The rebuild is over. Why would they continue it while Adley and Gunnar are in the majors?
Exactly, LordShade. The window is open, it’s go time.
Couldn’t agree more. This is no time to be cheap
They should go for Rodon and Bellinger
Just say NO to Bellinger…
I don’t see Elias deviating at all. His rebuild is in full swing and the pipeline is full for once. I also think other GM’s see this and have to try to lowball him this off-season. Things should get interesting at the next trade deadline and next off-season.
You’re a pitcher to pitch against the rest of the AL East and play in Baltimore for a franchise that has been competitive in how long ??
If the likes of Rodon and bassitt are Os fans expectations – better lower the bar….
Wants and expectations are 2 different things.
Well, that particular pitcher will get the opportunity to help usher in a new era of winning for Baltimore. They have a lot of talent coming up from their farm system.
I guess you don’t know that the #1 minor system rank has been in the AL or NL Championship series within 5 years, every time.
I like Ryan McKenna’s spirited play in LF. It’s not a black hole. Baltimore may regress but I think they surprise a lot of experts next season.
I think what StudWinfield meant when about the “Black hole in Left Field” isn’t saying anything bad about the Orioles Outfielders its more of a reference to the fact that since the Orioles pushed the walls back the ball doesn’t fly out of Camden Yards like it used to
Correct Sir.
You are right about these things..
I would like to see Baltimore add a front end starter, but I know that won’t happen? Micheal Wacha, and Jose Quintana both make alot of sense for the Orioles?
Rodon is the number 1 target for me. Then j would go Taillon who proved he could hang in the East this past year
Taillon is a slightly better 2022 Lyles that will cost significantly more. They should be aiming higher, IMO.
He would also have to face the Yankees all year, and not get to face the Orioles
I completely agree with you, O’sfan222. The Orioles need to sign Rodon. It may take 5 years / $150 million but the O’s just need to get it done and do it.
2022 was the first time in Rodon’s entire 8 year MLB career that he played a full season without missing any time due to injury. The Orioles should stay far away from him.
I’m buying 🙂
He was healthy all of 2016 except for a freak slip and fall with metal spikes on concrete. And he was healthy in 2021: except for a 19 game stretch in August between starts, he took the ball when given it, but CWS limited his September starts for their own reasons. His health questions are overblown. SInce TJ, you have to say he has been durable.
He only made 24 starts in 2021 due to shoulder issues.
Rodon only missed two weeks in August, 2021. Likely more the result of fatigue than injury. The CWS were starting him once every other turn in September to not overtax him and save him for the postseason. They would just not start him at all if he were actually injured in hopes his health would improve for the playoffs. I think they were just lessening the load.
Did you guys read the article?
I did.
Taillon is oft injured as well. Unless a team is desperate no way he sees the contract he is expecting. He has spent far more time injured than pitching in his career.
Ross stripling Baltimore Oriole.
Bassitt is a good option if they don’t wanna break the bank too much. Very underrated. Quintana was very good and also makes sense but scares me a little more. Manaea seems to be, like many pitchers, trying to find himself after adapting to become a more of a strikeout pitcher. He is risky but has upside. He did it successfully in 2021.
Taillon would probably be a lot better outside New York. To me it’s just a distracting place to pitch. Too much press. Fans… Etc. He’s really never had a chance to ripen into who he could be. 2020 was a largely lost season and then New York gets him which is a tough transition from Pittsburg. But perhaps he is just a mid 3 to 4 era guy. Still valuable
I meant 2019 was largely a lost season and 2020 was a lost season.
Taillon one was of the better more consistent pitchers on the Yankees. He didn’t shine like Cortes, and was not a strikeout machine like Cole, but was in general – reliable and did not walk many batters. Definitely a 3 type, but one that will keep you in games and give the offense a chance to shine.
Brewers could match up here on something…
I’d love to get Burnes or Woodruff to pair with Rodriguez at the top of the rotation but I would probably balk hard at what you guys would rightfully ask for.
I think the Brewers would be interested in Mayo but doubt there are enough other players of interest for the Brewers that the Orioles would include to trade for 2 years of either Burnes or Woodruff. But GRod, Rodon and either Burnes or Woodruff . . . MERCY!
We have a ton of prospects that the Brewers would be interested in. How many to give up might be the question.
The Orioles have the #1 farm team…
Problem is Burnes or Woodruff would probably cost you Rodriguez
Os could get it done without Rodriguez, but they’d have to deal two (or more) or Holliday, Cowser Hall, Westburg, Mayo, Norby and Ortiz in addition to more prospects of interest. I don’t think the Os feel good enough about 2023 to pull the trigger on a deal that would cost that much in prospects. They’d rather wait for the deadline or 2023 off-season when the price would be more manageable.
No, even the Brewers know GROD would not be in any deal. But they may want DL Hall.. Hall, Westburg, Naskin or Hall, Cowser, Prieto seem like possible returns.
Not “Naskin” but Hudson Haskin.
More realistic way to acquire a TOR than in FA
You aren’t wrong, but I’m still not into the idea gutting a large chunk of the farm system that the organization just spent 5 years building for 2 years of 1 player, even an ace.
You can’t play them all. Having a plethora of prospects means there is capital that needs to be maximized, whether via promotion or by return on trade.
They are not going to accept a package of B and C prospects for 2 years of Burnes or Woodruff, nor should they.
That means at least one of Cowser, Holliday, Gunnar, and Grayson as the headliner and multiple other quality pieces from the Westburg/Mayo/Hall/Ortiz/Norby/Basallo/Povich tier. That is too rich for me, at least this early in the competitive window.
The Orioles are not trading Gunnar. They are not trading GROD or Holliday for 2 years of anyone.
Coswer, sure; I included him in one scenario. I included Hall, too. You think the league views DL Hall as a “B prospect” He is currently ranked #87, higher than Mayo, Norby, etc. I included Westburg, #76, too. Not sure how my offers are “package(s) of B and C prospects”
Yes, Hall and Westburg are B prospects. That isn’t a knock on them, they are just very clearly a level below legitimately elite talent like Grayson, Gunnar, and Holliday, who are all top 15-25 prospects, with the first two almost universally ranked in the top 5-10. Cowser is somewhere in between, although I categorize him more closely to the elite guys.
The Brewers don’t need to trade Burnes or Woodruff. They can hold out for an offer that includes elite talent. Someone will eventually cave and offer it, and as much as I would like to land one of them, I hope it is not the Orioles.
Since there is no actual definition of an A prospect vs a B prospect, the point is moot.
Hall and Westburg are desirable prospects universally.
I would classify prospects that are pretty much universally ranked in the top 25 or maybe top 50 as A-tier, elite prospects. For the Orioles, that would be Gunnar, Grayson, Holliday, and maybe Cowser.
The Mariners gave up 2 top 50 prospects and 2 more decent prospects for Luis Castillo, and both Burnes and Woodruff are even better pitchers with even more remaining control. The Brewers will want a comparable or better return, and Hall and Westburg simply do not fit the bill except maybe as secondary pieces.
How much money would the Orioles feel comfortable spending is the true question, if they got Rodon, Bassitt or Taillon that would be awesome, but they might be frugal on their free agent spending.
O’s are a nice young team, solid lineup. They played the Stros toughest of any team we played. Add a few pitchers and they can give Yanks, Blue Jays a run.
I don’t see Angelos green lighting any multi-year deals. Seems like they’ll sign a few more Jordan Lyles type free agents, despite the fanbase wanting more.
Peter Angelos is in ailing health and has not been running the team for years. His son John is in charge now and has let the FO operate without any interference by all accounts.
Is John’s last name not Angelos? Drafting and trading are one thing. Spending big on free agents are another matter.
O’s fans want Trea Turner & Carlos Rodon. O’s fans will get Zach Elfin & Adam Frazier–or something there abouts.
I’m an Orioles fan and I don’t want either of those guys, nor do I want Correa or Swanson or Bogaerts.
And the Orioles were running payrolls in the $160-180 million range less than a decade ago, so…
Since you seem to know what the O’s are doing, please give us a little more info….
A little more info? The O’s aren’t interested in competing at the top of the division or ever making an all-in push to win a World Series.
Their sweet spot is right where they’re at right now, a .500 team with a little promise–just enough to give the fans some hope.
If things break right with a handful of the prospects, they might make it to the wild card once or twice before they trade Adley to the Dodgers in his walk year for a bag of balls and a piece of Bubble Yum.
I guess this was one of those “tell me you know nothing about the Orioles without directly saying ‘I know nothing about the Orioles'” posts.
B-B-B-But something about Angelos!
XD
O’s fans don’t want Turner. Where did you see this? lol…
1983
$160-180 million dollar payrolls less than a decade ago despite people like you claiming ownership was cheap and didn’t care about winning and would never, ever spend ever again all through the 2000s and early 2010s.
Cheap? I mean, they had a bonafide home-grown superstar in Manny, and let him walk.
The Braves are near the luxury tax line, and their roster is made up mostly of young guys making near the minimum or signed to team-friendly deals. Those extensions–like what Adley, Gunnar, & Mullins are due for–add up quickly.
Does anybody really think Angelos is willing to spend what it will take to lock up the young core AND add to it in a meaningful way via free agency?
I certainly don’t.
It would have made no sense for either party when he was heading into free agency because the organization was clearly heading into a prolonged rebuild. The first several years would have been spent on last place finishes, which I doubt that was all that appealing to Manny, and even if he had signed one prior to reaching free agency, he would have just been traded away for a haul of prospects to restock the barren farm system anyway.
As for locking up young stars, I fully expect Mike Elias to pursue such deals since he is a very new school GM and they are all the rage right now (and rightfully so). Of course, the player also has to be open to signing an extension. As a Boras client, I suspect that Gunnar will not be terribly receptive to one, plus Adley got the biggest draft bonus ever at the time he was drafted so he is already a millionaire and therefore may not be super open to it either. An effort should obviously still be made though and I see no reason to think the Orioles won’t at least try. After all, they signed Adam Jones and Nick Markakis to large extensions prior to free agency before it was even cool and both of those deals worked out well for us (plus some other ones that did not work out so great, i.e. Jay Gibbons and Brian Roberts).
Made no sense? Man, you’re really drinking the Kool-Aid.
Manny put up nearly 7 bwar for the Padres last season as a 29 year old. You don’t think that kind of performance would have gotten the O’s closer to a wild card?
As far as prospects go, the Orioles got nothing back for him. Diaz, Kremer, & Pop? Awful.
So…the young studs for the Orioles are unwilling to sign extensions, the ownership group isn’t willing to pay for top-flight talent, they play in the AL East, and you’re just so confident they’ll be good?
Why?
Comical to think that people believe owners don’t want to win. SMH.
I take it you’re not a Pirates fan.
You are stupid. Join the 2 other idiot Oriole Haters with your insane takes. Or are you one of their sockpuppets?
Umm, the Orioles traded Manny, they did not “let him walk.” But please, go on about your knowledge of the Orioles.
Letting him walk and trading him for 2 marbles and a G.I. Joe are about the same thing.
They had from the time they drafted him to the day they traded him (for nothing) to extend him, and they chose not to. Too much money for the Angelos family.
You’re deranged if you think this time around will be any different.
The Braves already extended Strider & Harris, their two great rookies. The Orioles, though? Haven’t heard a peep about keeping Adley & Gunnar long term.
Hopefully they’ll bring back more than Machado did when Elias trades them in their walk year.
You know Manny gets a say, right? Why would he sign long-term with a 47 win team with a barren farm system? Why would a 47 win team with a barren farm system sign a $30 million dollar a year player when the first third to half of their contract would be wasted on rebuilding years?
Are you intentionally trying to come off as an absolute clown? Because you’re doing a bang up job if so.
@SaintChris: good morning. You had me at “1983”. Way, way to long ago. Oh, the pain. That said because of guys like KFloch, I’ve been drinking the orange Kool-aid for a couple of months now. Basically John Angelos is nothing like his dad Peter. As you know, Peter was very hands and in detrimental ways. John not so much. He gets out of the way and let’s Mike E call the shots. Grateful. Next step. Expanding that payroll. Mr Angelos please spend some money. Please. Pretty please.
Jeff, I’ve been an Orioles fan since the early 90s and this is the probably the healthiest state I have ever seen the franchise in, even more so than the ‘96-97 juggernaut teams, which were mostly propped up by free agents and had no farm system to sustain the franchise as the subsequent lean years showed. Now we have a solid, cheap young core, a top 3 farm system with a half dozen top 100 prospects, a robust presence in the international amateur talent market, and a wide open payroll ledger, and all with a top notch analytically-minded GM at the helm.
The next few years should be a lot of fun.
Despite their awful year leading up to his trade and fa year, the Orioles did have some success while he was on the roster. How many times did they make the playoffs with him?
3 Times? Including reaching the championship series in 2014.
At any time, they could have brought out the leather-bound checkbook and extended him, but Angelos & family never did. They didn’t want to.
They said “Enjoy him while he’s here.”
Manny played the 4th year of his Padres contract last season as a 29/30 year old. He put up nearly 7bwar, and was the constant driving force of the playoff-bound Padres lineup.
But you, loyal O’s fan, thinks it would have been a waste to have Manny signed long term?
I’m starting to wonder if you have Stockholm Syndrome because you are a little too sympathetic to Angelo’s unwillingness to spend.
Go be a clown somewhere else, you and your intentionally obtuse routine are boring.
But not so obtuse and boring to stop you from responding. Every. Single. Time.
It seems like Adley earning an extra year of service time would really set a fire, really motivate the O’s the get an extension done.
I haven’t heard anything, though. Have you?
Enjoy him while he’s here.
No, you just got it wrong when you falsely claimed the team “let him walk.” You didn’t even get the correct number of players they received in trade. Fact: most prospects do not pan out. Your understanding is weak, if not non-existent.
Your claim that the Orioles are not interested in competing is refuted by things like hiring Elias and Sig, dramatically expanding their analytics department, building a 23 acre development complex in the Dominican, signing Holliday to an $8.5MM bonus and Adley at $8.1MM, etc. They would do exactly NONE of those things if they were not interested in competing as you falsely claim.
The Orioles are entering a new Golden Age.
It took you two days to come up with that response? What a pea brain.
You realize there’s not much difference between refusing to extend a player and trading him in his walk year and just not resigning him, right? My point is, they let him get away.
The Orioles wouldn’t pay their homegrown superstar.
I’m sorry I didn’t name all the players in the trade. Have they made a meaningful impact on the major league club? Or did the Orioles get fleeced in the trade?
If it’s truly a new “Golden Age” in Orioles history, please explain why the O’s haven’t extended Adley or Gunnar? JRod, Seattle’s rookie, got an extension. Strider & Harris down in Atlanta both got extensions, but it’s been silent in Baltimore.
Hopefully the bargain basement pitcher you guys sign–Rich Hill, maybe–can handle all those power hitters in the AL East.
The slot value for the 1/1 pick in the 2022 draft was $8,846,900, so giving Holiday $8.1m was actually another example of the Orioles playing poor.
I hope that analytics department and Dominican development helps you guys find some pitchers. God knows you need them.
According to you, the Orioles should have picked a player slated for the fifth round and given him a $500k bonus. But they did not. So you are wrong that they are not trying to compete.
I have a life, unlike you, so I don’t worry about responding to trolls every day. Now go ask mommy for a cookie.
All objective people would say it was smart to negotiate the #2 slot money for the player they wanted and spend the $700k on other players’ overslot bonuses. But you are not capable of objectivity, you are just an emotional troll. Sad that the hate eats you up so much you can’t think clearly.
A cookie from Mom–who sadly isn’t much of a baker–is a lot more realistic than thinking Angelos and family are going to sign an impact free agent.
Or even do the bare minimum, which is signing Adley to an extension.
Hate? I’m just pointing out the obvious to a beleaguered Orioles fan with the cloth pulled over his eyes.
I’m with Chris on this one. There can be a “strategy” explained for never spending premium dollars.
2018-19 – the farm system is bare and the Orioles are a 110 loss team. Why would you sign a long term premium deal for someone like Machado?
2022 – the Orioles are better but now we have to wait to see what the prospects do, so why sign premium free agents?
2024 (presumably after 2 more decent non-playoff seasons) – see? We built a decent team without signing any premium free agents, so our formula is working why change it?
The Orioles are a flawed team. Better, but still flawed. Kind of back where they were in 2012. They had a few competitive years due to Buck Showalter, an awesome bullpen, a “good enough” offense and a slap-dash starting rotation. Sound familiar?
They cheaped out on not signing Nelson Cruz resulting in the panic contract to Chris Davis and then tried to justify Ubaldo as a bargain. Hoping this regime is smarter but even if all the prospects work out they are still two good rotation arms and one power bat away from seriously being contenders.
Machado was not going to sign with the Orioles in free agency and suffer through 3-5 years of last place finishes when a team on the upswing in a desirable geographic location like the Padres was knocking on his door, nor is any team just entering a complete teardown and rebuild going to shop from the tippy top shelf in free agency. That is not just an Orioles thing.
Letting Cruz walk was also absolutely the right call at the time. He was a pure DH entering his mid-late 30s with an injury history a mile long. The Mariners offered him an utterly insane contract and got lucky thanks to his blatant use of PEDs. I’m happy for them but I don’t blame the Orioles FO for not predicting that his career would follow the exact same arc as Barry Bonds’ career, where he was “mysteriously” better at 37 than he was at 27.
It’s also a bit strange that you would bring up an example of the Orioles “spending premium dollars” on a free agent right after criticizing them for not “spending premium dollars” on free agents. The Davis contract was many things, but an example of the Orioles being cheap it was not. I would not have offered it, or the Trumbo contract, or the Ubaldo contract, but they were not my choices to make.
Of course you are with Chris/Ed. You always are.
The team that ‘never spends premium dollars” spent $164Mm in 2017, $149MM in 2018, $148MM in 2016. So, your bs is factually wrong. Hell, they led all MLB in 1998 and were among the top payrolls all decade.
I know, facts don’t support your irrational hate, so you ignore them.
Meanwhile Tampa says “hi.” There is no guarantee that having the top payroll delivers a winner.
Floch, you make it seem like the ONLY opportunity the O’s had to sign Machado is when he was a free agent. My point, continually, has been they should have extended him long before it got to that point, long before they entered the rebuild. They should have extended him as a rookie, or, at the very least, after 2014 when they went to the championship series.
You can point to the half steps they’ve made all you want, but we both know the ownership group has never been willing to do the right thing and truly pony up enough to be a lasting competitive team.
The Orioles, in my eyes, have the best farm in baseball, another superstar in Rutschman, and a comically low payroll–lower even than the Rays. It should be go time. It should be all hands on deck, and let’s go murder some Yankees.
But it’s not. It’s, let’s see if we can play .500 ball again and trade our closer at the deadline.
The Orioles should not only be looking to extend their young guys but also shopping at the very top of the market to add to their core, especially when it comes to pitching.
But they’re choosing not to. Just like in years past, they’re looking in the bargain bin.
You realize the O’s could add $110m in aav’s for next year and still have less than a league average payroll?
Yeah: “Orioles suck for not signing Machado!” and “Orioles suck for signing Chris Davis!” Talking out of both sides of one’s mouth exposes irrational bias and deliberate dishonesty.
Now you’re banging on the Orioles for trading Jorge Lope?!. LMFAO!!! Oh he’s a “closer!” Party like it’s 1999, Chris. What is a “closer” now anyway.
And I guess you didn’t pay attention to how the wheels fell off his cart. The Orioles tremendously benefited from that trade.
Shoo, clown. Shoo.
Yep, Ra. Trading a half year wonder ex-waiver claim like Lopez for Cade Povich+ shows how well run the current Orioles are, not vice versa.
And Lopez’s 4.50ish ERA post-trade proves it.
So…let me get this straight: You guys think the best path forward for the lowly O’s is to not sign any marque free agents and not extend their young studs?
And running a league average payroll 5+ years ago makes them big spenders?
And Chris Davis–the king of k’s with negative defensive value–was in the same league as Machado?
As far as trading Lopez goes, giving up an essential bullpen piece while actively trying to make the wildcard sends quite a message, doesn’t it? As in, they weren’t REALLY trying to compete.
That message continues into the off-season with the point of this MLBTR post: The O’s are avoiding spending on frontline pitching, their key need if they hope to be competitive in the future.
With all this prospect adoration, I can’t help but wonder if you guys are just masquerading as Orioles fans and really prefer the AA Bowie Baysox.
Wasn’t that you, Floch, saying it’s “go time” and clamoring for Rodon earlier in the comments?
Learn to read, clown boi.
Let me quote you:
“Exactly, LordShade. The window is open, it’s go time.”
“Taillon is a slightly better 2022 Lyles that will cost significantly more. They should be aiming higher, IMO.”
Looks like your opinion has suddenly changed, Floch, after defending the O’s for not extending Adley or pushing for a game-changing fa acquisition.
Go Baysox! Imagine how flush their team will be after trading Rutschman in his walk year!
I have spoken directly about the idea of the Orioles signing Carlos Rodon and his constantly injured left arm a half dozen or more times in the comments for this article, and every single instance can be distilled down to two simple letters that even you should be able to understand:
“N” and “O”
Stay mad, clown boi 🙂
This thread has been fun, but frankly seeing you and RA take L after L after L and talk yourself in circles defending Angelos & co has become quite embarrassing.
I’m sure I’ll see you on the next Orioles post, maybe the one where they’ll announce the signing of whatever low-dollar pitcher they sign to be their ace.
Ftr, I’m guessing their opening day starter is, hmm…Zach Elfin, but who knows? Maybe they really shoot for the stars and empty the piggybank for Taijuan Walker.
Whatever you say, clown boi. Hope your severe, debilitating case of butt pain passes soon and doesn’t leave any permanent damage XD
You summed up my experience as a Baltimore fan nicely over the last 30 years Chris. It was disappointing.. With a new front office I hope things are different this time around, but it does stink that bigger free agents aren’t on our radar. The Ravens had a young QB on a rookie deal and surrounded him with big money players because they could afford to.. It seems like the Orioles could employ a similar plan. Why not sign DeGrom & Verlander? They are both expected to receive short term deals. It wouldn’t cripple the franchise long term and it would go a long way to showing the fanbase they mean business,
I really don’t get the “Angelos refuses to spend” meme. For all of Pete’s warts (and there are PLENTY), not spending money isn’t really one of them. The Orioles have run top 10 payrolls at multiple points during his 30 years of ownership despite Baltimore being a relatively small market, at least compared to NYC, LA, Chicago, etc. In fact, him spending money was actually part of the problem during the 14 year losing streak because it kept the team good enough to stay out of last place but prevented the team from being bad enough to collect a bunch really high draft picks. He completely refused to allow his GMs to conduct a full teardown and rebuild, and kept spending on free agents- Miguel Tejada, Javy Lopez, Aubrey Huff, Jay Payton, Rafael Palmiero, Denys Baez, etc.- and extensions for in-house talent- Brian Roberts, Melvin Mora, Jay Gibbons, Nick Marsalis, etc.- and the team kept right on finishing in 4th place with 70ish wins.
His stewardship of the franchise definitely sucked a sack of Richards, but for different reasons than the most oft-cited one of not spending.
*Markakis, not Marsalis
Stupid autocorrect lol.
This is a non-sequitor argument. Davis and Machado were two completely different free agents. Davis – a 1B/DH type – was an outmoded player even in 2016, the Orioles were completely competing against themselves (and “rumors” of other interested teams) to sign him for a way overvalued contract. If you remember, the Orioles basically had to sign him after letting Cruz walk and seeing him hit another 40 HR. No one could foresee the absolute disaster he became…a degradation to the Mark Reynolds-type #’s he put up in 2017 was bad enough.
Machado, on the other hand, is a 3B/SS, a much more dynamic hitter and defender, and probably 25+ teams would chase him if available. There was no reason why they couldn’t have extended him in 2013, 2014, 2015…
When I pointed out my potential replies the Orioles could give for justifying not spending when they are in any situation, it was exactly that. We have to wait and see if that is the stance they take this year and for the next couple, because they haven’t been in a position of having a good, competitive team AND strong in the minors since I was a kid and they were bringing up Ripken and Boddicker.
Not sure where the vitriol is coming from (Ra, Floch) and where it is written that you MUST support every move your team makes no matter how stupid is the only way you can be a “true fan.” Obviously the Orioles have made PLENTY of stupid moves, and finally dropping guys like Richie Martin and Stewart demonstrate maybe finally we can take the team seriously.
I will also point out the difference between Tampa and the Orioles. Tampa has successfully “grown the arms” which is something the Orioles have been chasing for 20 years. The Orioles also cobbled together just 5 good years basically with an unusual compilation of a great bullpen, good enough offense, and barely adequate starters. Tampa’s lasting success is a direct result of developing, obtaining/retaining better starting pitching.
Don’t go back to “the Orioles have spent in the past” because remember unlike other below-average sized markets they had that sweetheart MASN deal. In the mid 90s they had a brand new stadium drawing 3 million a year in a booming economy and no Nats so they spent. They were pretty cheap from July 2000 through 2013 or 2014 (mainly the “1 or 2 stars and many scrubs” approach in addition to non-existing “arm growth).
Dan Duquette didn’t earn “dumpster diving Dan” because his owner threw money around. They spent from 2014-17 and then went into “rebuild mode”.
Now we have to see if they are seriously attempting to contend. No one with any knowledge of the game thinks the Orioles, as currently constructed, have a complete team with sustainable contention being possible without opening up the wallet and making a couple moves.
It is not a non sequitur to bring up an example of the Orioles spending a lot of money on one player when responding to the claim that the Orioles refuse to spend money on players. The “type” of player is irrelevant. A $160 million dollar contract is a $160 million dollar contract regardless of whether the player being paid $160 million dollars is a 1B, a 3B, a SS, or a backup C. It was a catastrophically stupid contract but it certainly wasn’t a cheap contract, and it was offered directly at Peter Angelos’ order. He wanted it, and he unfortunately got it.
And the “vitriol” was not being directed at you (at least on my part, I can only speak for myself obviously), it was directed at the intentionally obtuse clown arguing in bad faith and repeatedly ignoring completely valid refutations of his “points.”
I can’t believe you’re still even responding in this thread, Floch. Give it up. It’s terribly embarrassing.
You’ve been owned. You’ve been dragged. You’ve been made to look a fool.
Delete your account. Create a new one with a new name, so we can all put your weakminded, cringe, and embarrassing defense of Angelos & family behind us.
Take you colossal L, and learn a lesson from it with your new account, Floch.
Machado was willing to sign an 8-year extension with the Orioles for less than $10m per year, and the Orioles balked and said no.
calltothepen.com/2018/09/17/baltimore-orioles-sign…
Per Machado, they wouldn’t even reach out to let him know he was appreciated and a part of their future plans.
baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bs-sp-schmuck-mach…
I do remember the Machado issue. They had a window where he would have signed an extension at a lower rate. They lost him along the line.
Yes, they spent on Davis but as I mentioned, this was a panic buy because they simply wouldn’t give 1 additional year to Cruz.. The Orioles competed for Davis’ services in 2016 in a vacuum and made one of the all time worst moves in the history of baseball. At Angelos’ behest as you said.
They used Davis as an excuse and did not move on a proven superstar in Machado (though they had several years to sign him to an extension prior to this), or Schoop coming off good years, and when they did take their one foray into the larger scale market for starting pitchers they tried to find a bargain in Ubaldo Jimenez and that blew up in their faces too.
Lesson learned is extend Adley before the end of 2023.
Sure, but it takes two to negotiate a contract. Sucks they failed to work it out when Manny was getting that second knee surgery. Either way, he would not be an Oriole now since Duquette would have traded him in 2018.
Because the off-season is over and nobody, including the Orioles, will be signing anyone. Wake up.
The Orioles should sign Gunnar long-term.
It is probably a bad idea to sign a Catcher to an 8 – 10 year contract.
You do not know whether the team is in negotiations with them or anyone else. Nor do I. So your speculation that they are not is baseless.
I hope the Orioles get a few primetime national televised games next year. I want to watch them play….
O’s going to have a nice starting 3 with deGrom, Verlander and Rodon.
O’s have already stated that they are not going after top level players.
They haven’t definitively stated much of anything actually. Mike Elias is very tight-lipped and very little info leaks from the Warehouse under his watch.
That said, I don’t expect to wake up with Jacob deGrom or Justin Verlander under the tree on Christmas morning.
I agree. Should be but likely not.
I think Old York is just enjoying himself as a fan of baseball, not proffered a realistic lineup for the Os.
No, writer Roch Kubatko said that the Orioles are not going after top players, not the Orioles. It may seem like Roch is an Orioles employee but his inability to get any advanced information shows he is not even an insider,
The rotation is the most obvious area of need so I’d love to nab 2 solid SPs this offseason, either via free agency or trade. We’d be in a pretty good spot if only 2 of Wells, Kremer, Voth, Bradish, and Hall need to be counted on in the Opening Day MLB rotation.
I actually thought all of those guys did well last season and have room to grow this year. let em play, add at the deadline if any of them struggle
There will be opportunities for them, even if the team adds 2 SPs from outside the organization. No team ever gets through 162 games without injuries and guys struggling.
You need on average 12 starting pitchers for a season. So your right for sure.
Floch, when you don’t get too wrapped up in your emotions and lashing out irrationally at things you disagree with you make sensible comments as I’ve seen. Here is an example.
“The rotation is the most obvious area of need so I’d love to nab 2 solid SPs this offseason, either via free agency or trade. We’d be in a pretty good spot if only 2 of Wells, Kremer, Voth, Bradish, and Hall need to be counted on in the Opening Day MLB rotation”
Completely on board with that. I also don’t expect Verlander or De Grom. But a world of difference if the Orioles add 2 guys who can pitch sub 4.2 ERA for 180-200 innings. We’re talking above-average starters, not the top FA’s/trade candidates.
I assume you have Rodriguez in the rotation, and hoping he’s ready to step in and perform on opening day. Not sold on Hall yet. If Kremer, Voth, Wells produce something like they did this year (peripherals suggest all 3 overperformed, but potential suggests all 3 could do it again) then there is true competition for good starting pitchers to fill out the bottom part of the rotation after picking up two better than average starters….suddenly the rotation’s above average.
The Orioles were in a similar spot in 1992, assuming Ben McDonald was now ace material and hoping Mike Mussina (the Rodriguez equivalent in this scenario) was ready to step up. In actuality, Mussina became a true ace that year. McDonald fell flat. But the Orioles did pick up Rick Sutcliffe who gave them 237 innings of league average stuff and a half season of above average starts from Arthur Rhodes. This made a morbid 1991 rotation into an average 1992 rotation…in addition to a great bullpen and a bit above average offense they went from 67 wins to 89. Not such a big gap to climb from 83 wins in 2022, but two starter arms and an obtained bat (in addition to full seasons of Gunnar and Adley) will do it.
Orioles are loaded, AL East will be fun to watch next year
Fred the Bird is drunk?
Orioles are improving. They’re not loaded.
This is more accurate
So they are going cheap. Rolling the dice and hoping to get something that works out on a one year deal so if they are out of the race they can trade him for prospects. Alot of other teams do this as well. Ownership has put a lot of money in their pockets the past several years with these ridiculously low payrolls. If they were serious about contending they would loosen the purse strings a little more. If Baltimore contends next year it won’t be because of their moves this off-season.
“Going cheap” would be bringing Jordan Lyles back. Eschewing expensive long-term deals for constantly injured players like Rodon is simply being smart when you can’t spend with the big boys like NY and LA.
Lyles was 11 million. He’s not even cheap, just not worth 11 million.
Either that or declining the option and re-signing him at a lesser rate. That is what “going cheap” would look like. Everything Elias has said makes it sound like we are aiming higher than the Lyles’s of the world, but haters gonna hate…
Once again I gotta simplify the simple. Todays rate for a 3rd tier pitcher is maybe 5 million. They will keep all acquisitions low cost. That’s what I’m saying.
They aren’t going to be dropping $40 million on Verlander or deGrom, but I would expect them to be active in the Walker/Eovaldi/Taillon/Bassitt/Syndergaard tier based on Mike Elias’s comments about wanting to add top half of the rotation pitching and having money to spend.
I would love to see the Orioles go to even that extent for their fans but I just don’t see them doing much at all. Time for them to step up.
Ownership spent during our last competitive window from 2012-2017 (not always all that wisely though), so I don’t have any real reason to doubt they will again as the team is entering a new window.
Time will tell.
The Orioles will be paying Chris Davis until 2037, so yeah…they were morons.
and YOUR team never made a bad free agent signing…
They also spent between 1998 – 2007.
So childish that you upvote yourself. You are the only one who thinks your moronic comments are clever.
It’s there first year back competitive, they want to make a few solid additions that don’t break the bank and See if they can compete next year. They don’t want to end up like the Tigers last year.
There’s a whole lotta pitchers who’d require a ton of extra money to play in Baltimore. Os should stay away from those guys for the most part. 2 of Gibson, Walker, Stripling, Wacha + Britton and/or lorenzen would be a solid FA class for Baltimore. Then start locking up your young talent w all that money they keep saying they are ready to spend.
They will be browsing the bargain bin. Sounds like a Rich Hill offer on the way.
A dodger fan talking about baseball teams being cheap that’s comical and easy to say when your team prints money.
The Orioles can’t afford to sign a meaningful free agent? That’s a bad argument.
Of course they can. But the Rich Hill comment is just silly. Without a financially level playing field, many teams have to play things smart. His Dodgers just trade away mistakes to build their system and eat the money. Same way the Yankees and Red Sox operate.
That’s not what was said. Your posts are examples of every major fallacy that exists. Keep lying, fool.
Quintana seems like the play for them. Johnny Cueto on a one year as a gap filler.
Miami is looking to trade one of their starting pitchers for hitting (Trevor Rogers or Pablo Lopez) and Baltimore is in desperate need of a starter.
Baltimore has plenty of hitting depth in the majors and in their farm system to trade for a pitcher. If Baltimore could trade for Lopez or Rogers, maybe a guy like Carlos Rondon Will sign with Baltimore (that’s a very possible scenario) just takes One trade and one FA signing for a potential starting rotation that looks like this…
SP Rondon
SP Means
SP Lopez/Rogers
SP Grayson Rodriguez
SP Dean Kremer
I think a deal centered arounds Mullins for Lopez helps both teams.
It would leave the Orioles without an obvious starter in CF.
Hays is miscast as an everyday CF, McKenna does not hit enough to be a starter, and Cowser is better suited for a corner.
I would hate to see Mullins go, but if it means getting a quality starter in return, I think it makes sense. We’re not sure about Cowser when it comes to hitting or defense (at the MLB level) good hitting and defense is easier to acquire vs good pitching, so I think Mullins is replaceable. But Again, I would hate to see him go.
Sadly we may never know if he is mis-cast. He can’t stay healthy for 30 games in a row. The talent is there.
Then trade Cowser for Lopez, not Mullins.
Lopez is a solid mid-rotation SP, but I’m not trading one of my top prospects for 2 years of him. If they would take Mountcastle or Hays plus a couple of prospects not in our top 5, I’m probably in, otherwise just sign Bassitt or Eovaldi or someone like that.
“Centered on,” but it won’t be Mullins if the get is Lopez. That’s an overpay.
I believe that instead of Mullins the O’s can package Hays and Santander and get both Lopez and Rogers and a good prospect from Miami. I know that Baltimore will have replace the power and production they got from Santander but there are many prospects that can provide that if not this year than the next. I don’t think the Orioles are ready yet to make a run for a World Series, but even with a trade like the one a propose they still could make it to the playoffs.
@Bobby Mongan – i agree with your completely. In fact, the Marlins should also send Alcantara plus Eury Perez(a good prospect) on top of Rogers and Lopez plus pay off all their future salaries in order to help to O’s solidify their rotation.
If not, I wouldn’t do if i were the O’s. Amiright?
Rondon–everybody is scared of his medicals & he has a history of major velo drops in the second half.
Means–coming back from Tommy John and might not be ready for spring training.
Lopez–major drop in performance after a strong start to the season.
Rogers–looked nothing like he did in 2021, and had an awful year.
Rodriguez–completely unproven rookie & no guarantee he will even make the team.
Kremer–peripheral stats don’t support his 2022 stats. Due for a major regression.
Sounds like a terrible staff, and let’s be honest: The Orioles aren’t going to sign Rodon, anyways.
GROD is definitely making the team if healthy, Ed.
Kyle Gibson come on down!!!
Just don’t sign Clevinger
Agreed. When it comes to Clevinger I don’t don’t know which is worse – his results or his cringe-worthy windup followed by that ridiculous leg whip.
Always a lot of ignorant comments when it comes to the Orioles by people who have no idea about the current franchise. Things have changed a bit since 2004. And the comments of “Orioles’ fans want that but they’ll get this instead” are just stupid. So you’ve polled the entire fan base and know who they expect to sign? What, did you read a single comment on here and just made a generalization? ‘Orioles’ fans want Trea Turner but they will get Adam Frazier instead’. Really? Because the comments I’ve read on various platforms, seem to indicate anecdotally that the majority of Orioles’ fans do not want to sign any big money shortstop because they have a major strength at the position in the minor leagues, and they have Jorge Mateo already who is better much better than Adam Frazier so the money would be better spent elsewhere… stupidity or ignorance or a combination of both.
But Peter Angelos was a doo doo head 15 years ago!
@floch
It’s almost even comical!
I had no idea Orioles fans were so sensitive. I get it: You hate Trea Turner.
We get it: you are a stupid, loudmouthed ahole who has a hardon for the Orioles.
Sensitive AND angry, I see.
It may be hard to hear, but everything I’ve said is true. Maybe that’s why you’re so upset?
…and can’t come up with a better counter argument than “you’re stupid.”
If you’re a five year old, and I’ve made you cry, I sincerely apologize, RA.
You’re the one who can’t seem to stop REEing about them 😉
Claiming Orioles fans hate Trea Turner is the definition of stupid. It’s trolling at a grade school level. Project much, child?
You claim “O’s fans want Trea Turner” and also “Orioles fans …hate Trea Turner.
Your opinions are not worth shtt, You are just a troll.
I could see Manaea end up in Baltimore. If they feel they’re ready to build around adley and gunnar, then Mateo shouldn’t be preventing anyone from signing an upper tier SS like Correa if he actually has interest in coming. Other than adley and Gunnar, none of their offensive pieces are that strong. Put it this way, none had an ops over 800 in what’s still a hitter friendly park. They need upgrades in a few places, so I’ll be curious to see what they do. Can’t wait to see Grayson debut.
I feel like Manaea and Syndeergard would make a ton of sense for the Orioles. I’d push to sign them both. I’m not as knowledgeable as many on Baltimore’s young pitching, but I feel like with a young staff you ideally want 7-8 guys who *can* start games.
As much as i wouid hate to see him in an Orioles uniform Nathan Eovaldi would be a good fit here
Yes, but losing the 37th pick for him makes him prohibitively expensive. Makes sense to forfeit the pick for Rodon, doesn’t make sense to lose it for Eovaldi or Bassitt.
I agree, Eovaldi would be very attractive on a 2 or 3 year deal without the compensation pick, but with it, I think I set my sights elsewhere.
But if Elias decides to go that route, I’ll trust his judgement. He has done a hell of a job bringing the organization into the 21st century after inheriting a decrepit, backwards dumpster fire from DD.
Corey Kluber as a #5 on a 2 year deal. Has given promising results in AL east pitching for Yankees and Rays.
Zach Greinke as #4 on a 2 or 3 year deal.
Michael Wacha as the #3 had a great showing for Red Sox last year.
Fixing the back end of the rotation with experienced arms on decent 2 or 3 year deals should help the Orioles more than dishing out long term deals for TOR arms.
If anything they should go out and trade for a cost controlled TOR arm. Someone like Pablo Lopez . Colton Cowser seems like a likely piece to head back to Marlins.
I feel like if Grienke pitches next season it will probably be back in Kansas City
Eh, dude might want a chance to be on a winner.
Cowser for Lopez works.
Greinke would be a smart choice as the second starter signed.
Maybe Kluber as second starter signed if they miss on Greinke.
Last year was an outlier for Wacha.
Cowser for Lopez works for the O’s but not for the Marlins.
And Greinke isn’t leaving KC. O’s going to have to pony up cash for SP’ing (Rondon) or ml ready talent(Mullins) for someone like Lopez.
Why would the Marlins not want Cowser. Thought they were looking for a CF.
Greinke is not under contract with KC, He can go wherever he wants, which may be to a competitive team.
Mulliins is too much of an overpay for Lopez, head to head.
I would like us to trade for Burnes or Woodruff and extend them. Giving us a true #1. Although I like Rodon, I like those 2 more.
Santander / Westburg / Hall would be close.
Not really, add Cowser and drop Santander, then add Mayo, and they still might get a better offer.
That would leave the Brewers with no MLB talent coming back. That’s not happening.
They just traded Renfroe, they aren’t taking a lesser version of him (Santander) back as the headliner for one of their aces. They are going to want young, cheap, elite talent back, so Cowser, Holliday, Grayson, etc.
Mullins is being moved for Myles Straw, Aaron Civale and Will Benson
Great. But why would Cleveland do that?
These guys really need to make at Rodon. A true ace is the only thing they really need, with all of the talent due up over the next year or two. Especially on offense.
Enough bringing up Injury History being the reason for the O’s to not sign Carlos Rodon…Every dominant MLB starting pitcher in this ERA has had an injury history..As long as this game continues to train pitchers to throw the hardest and the fastest to strike batters out, starting pitchers are going to get injured and injured often..Buehler, Verlander, DeGrom, Woodruff, Kershaw, Bieber, Sale, Scherzer, Darvish are all dominant starting pitchers who have had some type of injury history in their careers and you don’t see teams running away from them because of their “INJURY” history..If the contract is going to be too high for your organizational budgetary plan, then say that, but enough of using “He’s had an Injured career” excuse..Recent history is what should matter the most and in the last 2 seasons, Carlos Rodon has definitely been one of the top 10 starting pitchers in the game and one of the top 5 LH staring pitchers in the game..If you are a GM or PBO and are afraid of signing or trading for a dominant starting pitcher who has been injured at times during his career, then you don’t need to be running a front office in this ERA of MLB…
He has one full, healthy season in his entire 8 year MLB career. That is not some minor detail.
Stop looking at the past, look at what he just recently did..The White Sox are kicking themselves now for not offering him the QO..That entire rotation has been completely set back due to that FO fear that Rodon was going to get injured again..If you try to run a front office using that FEAR mentality, you will never be successful..DeGrom has been injured more and missed more games than Rodon in the last 2 years and is anybody saying DeGrom is through, “He’s Injury Prone?” Stop being AFRAID..
Again, it’s not some minor detail, it’s relevant data. A pattern. Chronic, recurring arm issues.
And tons of people are questioning whether deGrom will be worth his next contract. Because like Rodon, he is constantly injured.
This should be a no brainer for the O’s. Back up the Brinks truck for a true #1 starter in Degrom or Verlander. They have the payroll space (organizational ownership distinction aside) and a clear need. From the players side it might be a tough sell as they’re emerging from a rebuild but higher AAV can solve that. Additionally I’m intrigued by Bellinger on the FA market on a 1 year deal. It’s time to cash in on Mullins for a long term piece (SP/RP) and they can platoon Hays/Bellinger in CF and give Stowers a full time shot. The infield is going to be exciting. Add in Westberg with Henderson and Mateo and more Urias into super utility and that is a solid group. Exciting time to be an O’s fan for the first time in years!
Chris Flexen, Bryce Miller, and Travis Kuhn for Jordan Westburg and Connor Norby. The M’s have pitching, and the O’s seem to have MIF prospects such as the two named, Joey Ortiz, Matt Halliday’s kid Jackson, Cesar Prieto from Cuba, and more. Flexen has some money owed, so maybe cash going East and another, lower-rated propect coming West will get closer to the balance needed. Bryce, along with Taylor Dollard and Emerson Hancock are 3 who could take the spot Flexen vacates, wherever he goes, and Bryan Woo is coming fast, so adjusting inventory looks doable.
I’d like the M’s to stay young and hungry rather than sign an over-30 for 2B, so, even if Dylan Moore , Abraham Toro, or Sam Haggerty has to break camp at the keystone, it appears neither Westburg nor Norby has much more to prove in the minors. C’mon, Jerry and Justin, this looks like it may be an easy one.
I’d probably do Ramon Urias for Flexen and a prospect or two, but I definitely wouldn’t do Westburg for him.
Again for all these Oriole fans that want to bury their head in the ground regarding Rodon’s injury history, Stop looking at the past, look at what he just recently did..The White Sox are kicking themselves now for not offering him the QO..That entire rotation has been completely set back due to that FO fear that Rodon was going to get injured again..If you try to run a front office using that FEAR mentality, you will never be successful..DeGrom has been injured more and missed more games than Rodon in the last 2 years and is anybody saying DeGrom is through? This guy isn’t Rick Ankiel…He’s a dominant TOR LH who’s thrown a No-Hitter in the last 2 seasons and who pitched pretty well against the Dodgers in 2022 as they hit only .177 as a team against him.. Front Offices, STOP BEING AFRAID..