The Guardians hammered out their third extension with José Ramírez over the weekend. While the team still hasn't announced the contract as of Wednesday evening, it reportedly runs through his age-39 season. It more or less confirms that Ramírez will be a one-team superstar, but the biggest impact in the short term is that it involved a restructure to give the team some spending room.
Ramírez will reportedly be paid $25MM annually over the next seven seasons. $10MM of each season's salary is deferred until 2036. He'd been slated for a non-deferred $21MM salary this season. They saved $6MM against the 2026 payroll and $8MM and $10MM, respectively, over the following two years.
Any mention of the Guardians spending money is going to be met with sarcasm and skepticism. That's warranted given their usual spending habits, but this year's payroll would be extreme even by their standards. There'll almost certainly be a notable acquisition or two before Opening Day.
Cleveland has 12 players, including their arbitration class, signed for the upcoming season. Their salaries break down as follows:
- Ramírez: $25MM ($10MM deferred)
- Steven Kwan: $7.725MM
- Emmanuel Clase: $6MM
- Shawn Armstrong: $5.5MM (including option buyout)
- Trevor Stephan: $4.75MM (including option buyout)
- Tanner Bibee: $4MM
- Austin Hedges: $4MM
- Nolan Jones: $2MM
- Colin Holderman: $1.5MM
- David Fry: $1.375MM
- Matt Festa: $1MM
- Connor Brogdon: $900K
They'll also pay the Blue Jays $2.75MM as a condition of the Myles Straw trade. It's a total of $66.5MM in commitments, and even that dramatically overstates how much they'll actually spend. Ramírez is being paid $15MM this year, dropping their short-term obligations to $56.5MM.
There's also a strong chance they don't wind up paying anything to Clase. His criminal trial for alleged game-fixing won't begin until May, but it's possible MLB imposes its own discipline before the start of the season. It'd be a shock if the star reliever played another MLB game and Cleveland brass will obviously hope for the league to level a suspension that gets them off the hook for next year's salary.
If that happens, they'll be down to $50.5MM in guaranteed commitments. Filling out the roster with players on near league minimum salaries would push them into the $63-65MM range. According to The Associated Press, the Marlins were the only team with a season-opening payroll below $74.9MM last year. Cleveland ranked 25th in MLB with a $102.5MM mark.
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On Dolan’s next yacht or mansion, I would assume.
Hardee, har-har…so funny, right? Such cleverness.
@Avory He might ve been semi sarcastic, but what he said is a reasonable assumption. Unless there is some reason why he does not like water or why a yacht of all luxuries os something he would avoid.
Other than that JoRam has already been saving them $ and this recent extension saves them more. If the $ is not invested in the team yet again it is profit kept by the owner.
@Tigers3232
Leave it to a fan of a team whose market dwarfs Cleveland to lecture us on how we should run our team, even though Detroit has looked up at Cleveland in the standings so often through the years.
Yeah, let’s ignore that Detroit blows money left and right, whether it’s Alex Cobb, Javier Baez, Eduardo Rodriguez, or Kenta Maeda. And painted itself in a corner AGAIN with the Gleyber Torres and Jack Flaherty foolishness. Goodness only knows how the Tigers will react if this arbitration case goes against them. Such excellent organizational planning!
Fans like you completely ignore the cost of hiring and retaining excellent people in the organizational and development realm. You do know that we have to pay as much to these guys and gals as the Dodgers or Yankees do, right? And that leaves a lot less over for the frivolousness the Tigers employ on their major league payroll. What would you have Cleveland do, spend as much on mediocrities as the Tigers do? I’m sure you’d love that, so you insist on lecturing us.
Wake up, payroll in large part is determined by player age and performance, and right now Cleveland has a lot of talented players in pre-arb status who have yet to hit their stride. What do you suggest we do, pay them MORE than the minimums established in the CBA? We do actively seek out extensions, like the one Tanner Bibee signed last year. For now, payroll is low, but as these players age, performance increases, and revenue rises with increased attendance and more playoff appearances and better TV deals, then salaries will inexorably rise as they always do, yes, even in Cleveland.
But for now, rather than spend like the Tigers do, we’ll bide our time with our small pile of discretionary cash and wait for shrewd opportunities to use it, presumably to eke out yet another Central title over a team that vastly outspends us. Sure is embarrassing for Tiger fans, isn’t it?
as a fan of the Seattle Mariners, one of the things that frustrates me the most is when fans defend the lack of spending by billionaire owners.
The Indians are currently slated to have the lowest payroll in MLB in 2026.
Why don’t you care that your team isn’t doing enough to improve the teams for ’26? It’s a disgrace.
@marinersfan1977
Clearly you have a bone to pick with your owners; sorry not all of us share the animus you evidently do. I cannot speak for you or whether or not your owners deserve such ire, but I certainly don’t apologize for not having a bone to pick with ours, and I resent them being called a “disgrace” for doing so well–better than the Mariners–despite not having all the advantages Seattle has.
How do you know Cleveland “isn’t doing enough” to improve? You would have said exactly the same thing for the last 35 years and yet our achievements exceed yours, so how do you have the right to be so outraged?
And Cleveland’s owners are not “billionaires,” so please get your facts straight. While far from poor, they are the least wealthy owners in the game, presiding over a franchise in the smallest market in the game, vying for ticket sales in the most economically deprived region in the game, and possessing one of the worst TV contracts in the game. Anything else you’d like to know about why we’re cautious with spending? I assure you, when it’s all said and done, CLE spends at least as much as all other teams on baseball operations, top to bottom, as a % of recurring revenue. You may think spending millions on average to mediocre ballplayers for past their past achievements is the best way to spend what revenue you have and that it’s a guarantee of “improvement” going forward, but evidently you haven’t been paying attention to free agents’ performance over the years.
And why is it such a “disgrace” to be last in payroll in 2026? Or anytime, when the team is obviously in a distressed economic landscape? In a list of 30 teams, doesn’t it stand to reason SOMEBODY has to be last? Isn’t that the way lists work? Why not us? I fail to understand your reasoning. Are the last 15 teams all supposed to be tied for 16th? We’re just not being rational here.
You might want to wait and see how Josh Naylor performs after he’s been paid before making judgments about CLE. Maybe then you can start making assumptions. I’m looking forward to the season’s opening series and seeing how your “improvements” are doing.
@Avory Im sure Mike Illitch’s son and daughter who inherited his billion$ along with his multile businesses and pro sports franchises have not went without meals. And even with the contracts you are judging in hindsight they still turned a profit off the Tigers annually in top of all else that they inherited and what those have accrued.
You political zealots are something else. You bite hook line sinker into a couple hot button issues. All the while this corporate oligarchy further amasses insane wealth for a very elite of an already very select few. Its almost like a society of kings and the wealth gap is incomprehensible.
The sad part is had CLE invested in just a bat and maybe one more arm they could have done some serious damage this past postseason. Yet people defend the gluttony of greed of the uber elite based off a handful of issues that most politicians on both sides done even truly believe in. Wake up enjoy your life, enjoy sports without politics, and stop excusing these billionaire$ who keep robbing the fans of this sport. Games are getting more and more expensive just to view let alone going to a game, dont enable them to further deprive the fans on quality of the product to further gouge us all. Mind u a good CLE team is not a benefit to the Tigers success. Ultimately tho I am a fan of the sport even more than the Tigers, so Id rather be disappointed by them missing winning a division some years opposed to seeing the product and game as a whole be deprived in the name of greed.
Interesting enough, since 2016, Cleveland is in the top five in wins during this time. And they have made the World Series. Small market teams need to do it differently.
@ Avory, Unless you work for the team, stop with the “we” stuff. I get it that you’re a fan of the team, so am I. At this point, knowing how little they choose to spend, and knowing their budget restraints, I don’t even concern myself with it. As former Raiders owner Al Davis used to say, “just win baby”. I would much prefer to see the kids like DeLauter, Valera, Bazzana etc play over signing a middling & aging free agent to a 3 yr, $20-30 million contract. I guess where my disconnect is, why not sign a righty 5th OFer to a minor league deal, thought a guy like Chas McCormick would have been a decent add before he signed with the Cubs. I just don’t want to see the lefty kids get worked by the tough lefty types (Skubal, Ragans, Crochet types) and lose their confidence. But hey if this is a transition year to see what these kids can do and build stronger for the future, I’m all for it. As far as other fans, from other teams having opinion on Cleveland, it’s a free country and it’s their prerogative. I know that you think that you are a know it all, but you’re not!! None of us are. Just let all fans be fans, have an opinion and relax.
This defence is an embarrassment; the team has solid gate receipts, expects to contend for an ALC title and has a route to do so. The team’s superstar has done what few do – made an obviously beneficial agreement where he left MILLIONS on the table for his own and the team’s advantage. They could but no one expects them to cut a cheque to Valdez, but inking a Bassitt or Andujar and trading for a decent bat is not much to ask for. Toadying for ownership is just as bad as sandbagging for the players union IMO.
@Leo Schnauzer
1. At the time Jose Ramirez signed his first extension, he was TWO full years away from free agency. You can’t “leave millions on the table” until you GET to free agency. Can you predict the future? Did you know two years ahead of time that you’d be hit by a bus, remain injury free and your performance continue, or would you grab the security of multi-generational wealth and not gamble your family’s welfare away? This was a shared risk arrangement that moved the risk away from the player and towards the team. Was Jose going to give back his GUARANTEED salary if he was unable to perform up to his contract? Did Chris Davis? And what if Jose had the misfortune Michael Conforto and other athletes have had who banked on even bigger money in the future, money that never came for one reason or another?
2. Clearly you didn’t listen to Chris Antonetti. CLE tried to sign some of the RHH outfielders to play on the short side of a platoon, but they weren’t interested in that. Those players want to go somewhere where they can build their value not play a role that will only give them 250 AB’s. And why is Bassitt going to come to CLE if he thinks he can still pitch every 5th day, and why would CLE pay him like a MOR starter when it has a bunch of mid-20’s starters vying for innings already? One of Logan Allen or Parker Messick is going to Columbus as it is.
3. Nobody is “toadying” to owners. Just responding with common sense, something most fans have in short supply.
@O1Scamp
Cleveland DID sign Chas McCormick, his name was just Stuart Fairchild. Look at his splits and his defense. He’s just what the doctor ordered to enable sending Angel Martinez to Columbus to work on his center field play and learn not to chase pitches (if that’s even possible). Fairchild is a real center fielder–not someone playacting as one–and hits LHP well. In that narrow platoon role, he has a very real chance to make the club if he comes to camp healthy, in good shape, and ready to grab this opportunity.
You can’t argue with Avory. He’ll continue on his tirade how the Dolans are the poor little step children of baseball. No matter what EVERY financial reporting indicates. He’ll deny it to the hilt like he has inside knowledge. I can tell you I do and I know his bs is a lie. But he can only come back with insults and putdowns which you’d expect from an ignorant individual. Have the Guardians been competitive? Absolutely. Do they have the fourth best record over the last years? Yep. Have they not won a World Series since 1948. Yep. I followed this team through the very lean 60s and 70s. And that was real suffering. There has to be a point though where you take a chance or a risk. Something Cleveland has not done. Could they miss? Sure. We’re not talking megabucks signings. That would be absolutely foolish. But at least an outfielder that could hit his weight? Doesn’t seem unreasonable or costly based on the stats of their current payroll. Does anyone truly believe this team would be anywhere near competitive if Ramirez weren’t in the lineup? The let’s wait and see what we got attitude has gotten them close but not to the top. People go into business to win. Not be competitive and happy for second beat
@waittilnextyear
Remember, everybody, waittilnextyear and all the uninformed critics believe that your cousin who owns five car dealerships is wealthy, you are too! Even if you’re on welfare and not an heir…
Most amazing rationalization for bitterness…ever!
The cousin has nothing to do with the wealth calculation. As I have told you hundreds of times I am very well informed about their worth and If it were his worth would be twice as much. If your misinformed conception were correct there are a lot of financial institutions in the Ohio area who are being very much deceived and would frightened to know their interests aren’t secured. Don’t mistake bitterness for truth. I am hardly bitter. Frankly they can spend any way they want. But they can hardly cry poor when pursuing midland free agents instead of searching Craig’s List. I don’t doubt you are a great fan of the team. But your arrogance in assuming you know everything that needs to be known about this team is laughable to any of your “misguided bitter” fans of the team.
Avory- while I try not to deride any team, its fans or any individual poster to the boards here, I cannot disagree with you more.
ALL owners are billionaires. Your’s is as well. Not only that but he has two other billionaire partners. The issue with Dolan is that he is potentially losing majority control in three years and is more comfortable collecting checks than writing them before he goes.
The Guardians receive money from the luxury tax penalties. They sold over 2 million tickets. Merchandising, concessions, TV, radio, naming rights, parking, the list goes on….
The first rule of business is, ‘you have to spend money to make money’. If they put a better product on tge field more people would come.
In the battle between billionaires and millionaires, I choose neither side. But, EVERY team can spend more money. The sport needs a floor almost more than a cap (again mother taking sides on that one).
Don’t defend the indefensible
Well said. Couldn’t agree more
@sad.Sox 3
You know what’s worse than defending the indefensible?
Citing mistruths as truths.
It’s all well and good to assert owners should “spend more,” but unless you know how much the Yankee or Red Sox or Cub or Dodger owners are “not spending” out of THEIR revenue pile, how can anyone call out Cleveland ownership for not spending out of their comparative pittance of a revenue stream?
Has Cleveland cut corners in organizational development? No. In drafting, scouting, international academies? No. In capital investments on the ballpark to keep it current with modern standards? No. In player nutrition, counseling, language instruction, cutting edge instructional techniques? No. In signing bonuses, retention of key personnel throughout the system, front office, analytics, coaches on the field? No.
These are all FIXED costs, people, every single organization has to pony up for in order to compete. They are the SAME for every team and these costs are immense. The only thing that ISN’T the same is the money left over after these fixed costs are paid, which can be devoted to major league payroll. Many teams short shrift these aspects of a team in order to satisfy their fans with free agent headlines instead. Any wonder so many of them perform so much poorly than Cleveland?
The real truth is that Cleveland’s ownership is house rich and cash poor. Do you borrow on your house’s equity appreciation to pay for groceries? Do any owners borrow out of their OWN pockets to pay for ballplayers for your enjoyment? No they don’t, so don’t fault Cleveland’s owner for doing something that the Yankee or Red Sox owners won’t do either.
As long-time local Cleveland sports journalist Jayson Lloyd (a frequent critic of the Dolans, mind you!) wrote in The Athletic trying to set the record straight for the misinformed:
—-“Don’t conflate Cleveland’s Larry and Paul Dolan with the New York father-son duo of Charles and James. Charles is Larry’s billionaire brother and the founder of Cablevision. Larry is a retired attorney. The blood may be the same, but the money sure ain’t.
The Cleveland Indians are these Dolan’s primary source of income. This isn’t a family that made billions in tech or real estate. They aren’t business moguls. There is no empire of wealth. They’re Clevelanders and huge sports fans who did well as attorneys and bought a team 20 years ago when there was a little more room for mom-and-pop stands in professional sports. But in that time, the game has changed for ownership groups, and now baseball is pricing them out of their own neighborhood.”—
Jayson concluded by saying that if the Dolans were guilty of anything, it was being too poor to own a baseball team, not a failure to spend beyond its means.
Rather than tut-tut about something people know nothing about, why not instead blast ALL owners for not proving what we know to be true: there is immense money to be made in the game, and most of that money is in the hands of the richest markets, and their spending in free agency only obscures the vast extent of their largess. And folks, it’s far greater than the “profiteers” at the bottom of the food chain make. Only the ignorant fall for the big lie that the problem is always the poorest component in a paradigm. That’s a head fake the public always falls for, and the big market teams know it.
@Avory Do you have any data backing that they have not cut corners anywhere that you mentioned? Im gonna guess no. So you dont know either so wuit trying to assert something as fact when you are making an assumption.
Funny you mention one single player(Chris Davis). How about all the players who were All Stars at some point of team control and cashed in through free agency. The list is far longer.
You sure like to try and BS your way through things. Its quite yet provide nothing that substantiates anything you say….
Avory – I can tell you arent the type of person open to honest discussion, so i am not going to continue to answer your long diatribes point for point because you will never concede even one.
But, I will say this. I went out of my way to say ALL owners should spend MORE on their on field talent. That’s what ultimately makes or breaks the success of an organization.
You’re “fixed costs” applies to all teams, and, quite honestly, EVERY team should spend LESS on that. I am a fan of a team that employs 300(!) data analysts.
I agree that the Guardians have done a pretty good job at developing talent, but if you never supplement the on field talent you never get the chance to supplement your revenue and income. You’re just holding a comfortable line.
Ohhhh my bad. Well it’s funny that you should mention those 2 together. Fairchild’s only good year vs lefties was in 2024 when he hit .273. That same year, he hit righties at a .151 clip. Even Austin Hedges thinks that’s awful. Meanwhile, for McCormick, his 2 best years vs lefties was 2022 & 23 when he hit righties.340 & .323 respectively in a 50-60 game sample size twice as many as Fairchild in 2024. Oh and you mentioned CF defense, Fairchild being a true CF. He has 1 error and 1 assist in his career in CF in 72 games started. McCormick. He too has 1 error in 167 games started with 4 assists.
And as far as career batting, McCormick’s quick snapshot .247-57-196. Fairchild’s .223-18-68.
I would take McCormick all day every day. Whomever plays some as a backup in CF should have some pop in their bat. Cleveland does not need another Collin Cowgill at the dish, trying to hit a baseball with a toothpick.
If you’re gonna argue for a player, get your facts straight. Cleveland could easily add some players on the cheap still available (Flores, France, Renfroe, S. Marte, Slater) but instead late in spring they will re-sign Brennan.
@waittilnextyear I agree with most of what you said. I would say that the last “people go into business to win”, while that is true, I would say the Dolans look at “winning” much differently. For them, it seems, their winning starts with how much profit they make off of the Guardians. If the team on the field puts together a winning season, ehh great. If they get to the playoffs, creating some extra gates for more profit, that’s great too. But if they don’t have a winning season on the field and don’t make the playoffs, BUT the Dolans make a nice profit, they as owners won. And that’s all that matters. For any fanbase that thinks their ownership team cares about them??? They barely do. And the only reason why they care a little bit about the fans is for their gate & merch money. How can the fans line their pockets. Beyond that, the fans are forgotten. Cleveland is obviously not the only ones that a) cry poor & b) have owners running their teams for themselves and their bottom line. Sad but true.
As I wrote before Avery is not knowledgeable on this topic. I think he cuts and pastes the article from Jayson Lloyd who may be a personal friend of his. Lloyd is a well known hack in the reporting industry. His knowledge of sports is questionable let alone his inside thoughts of finances. How you can debunk the reports from reputable magazines like Forbes, Money and Wall Street journal as well as reportings from other agencies (this site for example) based on an article from a hack is beyond me. People who make a living on financial matters have been deceived but Lloyd he knows the real story. Is there a disparity in the ability to spend? Of course there is. Any Tom, Dick or Avery knows that. Do Cleveland fans expect their team to shell out dollars for an Ohtani or upper level free agent? Of course not. But they should expect their team bare minimum of attempting to pursue some talent that will improve their chances instead of fielding a team with unknown talent and crossing your fingers for the best. He makes reference to what the club has done behind the scenes as if he really knows it (thank goodness their spending the money spent on players so that they can give nutritional meals to their team). It’s good to know their not chowing down on Twinkies. To indicate the team has spent money on improvements to the park is an out and out falsehood. The maintenance and improvements are paid out of a Cuyahoga county fund built on the sin tax collected from its citizens. The Guardians are not out one dime. Another laughable comment is questioning whether or not you would borrow against equity in your home to pay bills. Comparing home ownership to a business operation is idiotic. Your house doesn’t bring in millions in revenue every year that is placed in your pocket while the equity in the asset continues to grow. Cleveland ownership is not cash poor and to make people believe that Dolan was a fan who owned a mom and pop law firm. It’s a nationally renowned law firm. They also sold a local cable station for an enormous profit. But Avery can keep spewing the same old bs about ownership on how they are borrowing against a trust (untrue) and that they supplement their income by delivering newspapers. Get a clue The only correct statement is the thought that the Guardians can keep pace with the dodgers or Yankees in spending. But they certainly can afford to reinvest on their savings on payroll from Ramirez’s contract and other players cast off instead of giving themselves high fives and watching their teams anemic offense go out again and again. Forbid Ramirez gets hurt for any extended time. This team would be hard pressed to score any runs. They could do more and don’t. But then again I’m just a bitter fan with no knowledge of business.
@01 You are absolutely correct most people go into business to profit, in fact nearly every single one of them.
In the cast of MLB owners we re talking a select few of an already elite group and they all have been wildly successful in business or inherited from someone who had. As for their MLB franchises, these are not typical businesses. These billionaire$ are buying into a business with an exemption from the government to have a monopoly. They also benefited enormously from an overly complex tax system and have further parlayed it to being subsidized by taxpayers. The same tax payers that many have held hostage with the threat of moving if stadiums are not built for them.
Teams Im sure would prefer to win, but their owners are not going to do so at the expense of profits. In Detroit it was widely believed Mike Illitch would spend whatever it took to win, but yet they were profitable all but one year(I believe 2016 while missing playoffs). The payroll in those yrs got up to $200M but it peaked and held steady just over $200M which seems to have clearly been the budget.
There’s also accumulating wealth without profiting. Amazon is the poster child for this. Owners of immensely valued businesses claim zero profit maximizing deductions and then leverage the value of the asset to get tax free capital. Most get to do so at absurdly low rates often as low as 0.075%, rates nobody else can get. They accrue more wealth then off the $ borrowed, its insane. People like Avory probably believe we have a “free market” or “capitalism” thrives here. We in no way have that any longer, those are markets free of outside influence. Anyone who knows even the ABCs of political funding knows that we are anything bit a free market. And so im not fueling any of the political zealots, both parties are guilty of thos and trap constituents with hot button issues to assure the 2 party systems thrive and they hold their offices. Many might have went into it with pure intentions, but to stay and do anything they believe in they have to play the same game as the others pillaging the citizens they represent. If they cant balance a budget and have a deficit everyone should b ineligible the next election. If we ran our households with continuous deficits wed get foreclosured upon.
Maybe on a Rolex?
Designer handbags for the wives,fan duel, buy more hoses and foam to keep the lakes fireproof, donate money to pay for aged LeBron James farewell tour next NBA season?
None of those OF are CF types.
People get on the pirates for being cheap (they are) but during a rebuilding timeline Guardians are actually good and arguably more cheap. Jose Ramirez and good coaching takes them a long way.
Im sure most would agree the Guardians are cheap to some extent. They are not as cheap as the Pirates and Nutting that is an absolute that can be measured in total $ spent.
Now which is worse not investing to the point of perpetually rebuilding or being frugal even when team can contend is something that is debatable.
Good point, but even the Pirates have invested more this offseason – with less chance of a playoff payout – than the former Tribe. If one of their stars would cut the club a discount on the level of JoRam – & I’m not saying they should – pressure would mount on Nutting to match it with an on-field investment. Both are storied franchises with long-suffering fans…
@Leo Schnauzer
Only a bitter, whiny, completely unreasonable person would conflate the “suffering” of Pittsburgh baseball fans with the experience of those in Cleveland. Hilarious.
Extend Bazzana.
Hard Rock Cafe.
He is going to show he can hit more than .230 at the plate
He might not even be a good everyday player yet. This team had more than a handful of infield prospects who’ve done nothing.
Where can they spend it? So many places!
Where will they spend it? Not on the team!!!
Good for Ramirez not caring about winning. He’s comfortable in Cleveland.
They’re in the playoffs every year. What do you mean “not caring about winning”?
Getting to the playoffs isn’t that much of an accomplishment coming from the AL Central since someone has to go to the playoffs from there each year.
I assume he means winning it all, which AL Central teams have rarely done.
Riiiight…because the Yankees have won so many titles recently. And the Mariners have never even BEEN to a World Series. Angels? Orioles? How about Cleveland’s bigger market divisional competitors, the Tigers, Twins, and White Sox? What’s their excuse?
Keep casting stones from an ignorant point of view. Cleveland’s known for its organizational excellence, front office loyalty, and developmental ingenuity despite revenues that Brian Cashman wouldn’t even know how to field a ballclub with.
Rather than sarcastic comments about shortcomings, how about we admire Cleveland’s achievements in a rigged game? Nah, that would take too much thought…
Avory, it’s better to get it off your chest. Next time speak up!
Seriously, that was a great counter-commebt.
So you think it is more impressive to win a 5 game series in October than to win a division title over 162 games? This is the problem with the modern fan that only focus on championships. Winning over the long haul is FAR more impressive than winning a single series. The postseason is mostly about luck and who plays better in the cold weather.
@Avory The owner of White Sox has been a notoriously cheap pro sports owner for quie some time.
The Tigers have shown a willingness to spend consistently and have ramped up spending. It took them a bit as Avila was let go and their rebuilding started from someone else at the helm.
Im not looking it up on MIN but Id guess their market size especially with the overlap with MIL is smaller.
You seem to have a clear biased towards the owners which I would guess is derived in politics and an anti Union sentiment. If so, I cant think of anything more sad then to let political beliefs in our tainted warped 2 party system control every aspect of ones life.
But on the original topic, CLE got one of if not biggest deals in pro sports on a star athlete and sadly.it appears those savings will compound with the rest of the owners vast wealth.
@hiflew
Excellent point, one I’ve tried to make for years, but you’ve eloquently stated.
A three-week tournament in October–especially in a random sport like baseball (all you have to do is go one game over .500 to advance)–tells you nothing about excellence like the long haul of a season.
Nobody goes into the Hall of Fame purely for performances in the postseason. Is Gene Tenace in the Hall of Fame? Don Larsen? No, it’s the achievements in the regular season that matter. Someone want to tell me Mike Trout or Ernie Banks’ numbers don’t matter because they never played in a World Series?
As far as Cleveland goes, what it has accomplished in the last 35 years despite the gross financial inequities in the game is astonishing, and under the present ownership it has only strengthened the franchise’s hold on 3rd place in all-time AL winning percentage, behind only big market New York and Boston.
Do I want to win a World Series, sure, who doesn’t? But it is more meaningful to me to have many long summers of interesting, competitive baseball where every game has consequence of some sort. That’s when the sport makes daily memories. Postseason success is just the cherry on top.
@Tigers3232
Leave it to you to draw ridiculous conclusions from sensible statements of fact.
Rather than draw reasonable conclusions about economic disparities among franchises in MLB, you run off on an absurd tangent having nothing to do with my argument.
It’s called the “liberals’ curse,” for good reason, where our side jumps to the worst assumptions about people when there’s no basis for it.
For you see, I believe it’s the owners’ responsibility, not the players, to fix the competitive imbalances in the game. Until owners completely distribute all revenues generated by the sport evenly across all participating franchises, the players should not concede anything that would compromise their earnings. My only gripe with the MLBPA is that they are beholden to the star players and their big-time agents, none of whom do enough to leaven compensation among all its members in a way that is more in accordance with each player’s contributions to winning.
But the chances of the MLBPA flattening salaries properly is about as likely as owners sharing revenue for the good of the game. Big market owners and big-time agents control the game for their narrow benefit.
As for Cleveland’s owners, I abhor their politics, but that has ZERO to do with their ownership of the local baseball team, which despite the league inequities, has been run with distinction and excellence. For folks like you to impugn their achievements with snotty references to their spending only tells me you have fallen for the BIG LIE peddled by the affluent franchises.
And it goes something like this: because we big markets spend on Jack Flaherty and Gleyber Torres, and waste millions on Javier Baez and Eduardo Rodgriguez and Kenta Maeda and Alex Cobb, we are VIRTUOUS, and because you, you greedy little markets, you are profiteers, pocketing money left and right while we are foregoing yachts by giving money to these poor ballplayers who need it to feed their families.
Okay, so I used the Tigers as the example, but substitute the Yankees and Red Sox and Dodgers and Blue Jays and Cubs, teams that pull down revenues FAR in excess of Cleveland, and when THEY pocket profits–both in real and % terms far greater than Cleveland’s owners can even dream of–nobody vilifies THEM, do they? Why is that? Only the Clevelands of the world get the ire. And that’s EXACTLY the nonsense the big markets peddle to shield fans from the real truth: THEY are the ones making the big money. They don’t pocket profits, they haul it off in dump trucks to their banks.
You see, you’ve fallen for the BIG LIE, the same one as those who like to point to penne ante welfare cheats as “the problem” when it’s really the white collar criminals and fraudsters who rip off society FAR in excess of what the downtrodden can even conceive, much less pull off.
I’m a lefty, pal, yet you’re the one subscribing to the nonsense. Don’t EVER come around here and tell me that the Cleveland baseball club is an example of what’s wrong with the game. Far from it, by demonstrating ingenuity, fostering a culture of excellence, and finding a way to make do with less, we should be holding the franchise up as an example of pure achievement. And conversely how pathetic it is that we lionize franchises and GM’s in big markets for doing far less despite having a great deal more.
By the way, Minneapolis-St. Paul is big enough and wealthy enough, with a large regional draw, to have all four major league sports franchises. It’s a significantly larger market than Cleveland in every respect.
Cleveland is by far the smallest metropolitan area to possess MLB, NFL, and NBA franchises, and its baseball market is compromised by poor economic status of the region and the close proximity of the Tigers to the west (Toledo is a Tigers town), the Reds to the south (Columbus is split) and the Pirates to the east (Youngstown has historically wavered back and forth according to how the winds blow…right now it’s a Steeler town).
Were MLB created today, with no stadiums in place, it’s safe to say Cleveland would not even be awarded a franchise, that’s how poor a baseball market it is. And yet, the team succeeds in spite of all that. And in spite of potshots from the ignorant.
@Avory The fact you point out which ever side you are on says it all, you are entrenched in their scheme.
And BTW, anyone saying “leftie” tells us where you truly stand….
I hope you find the strength within to free yourself from the echo chambers and get out from that toxic hole of entraped political ideologies. Sports and life in general are so much more enjoyable when being viewed free of those dark constraints.
CLE would still have a franchise so stop with the foolishness. That type of statement is the only thing ignorant. The NFL expedited expansion due to a greedy owner to get a team back.in that market, so any notion MLB wouldn’t have a team there is laughable. And what VLE sports fans have endured only further makes your support of owners greed mind-boggling.
@Tigers3232
More garbled nonsense from a bitter, whiny Tigers fan frustrated by his team.
YOU were the one who brought up the “toxicity” of political arguments when none was being made. Your inability to make fine distinctions and think critically is exactly why this country in this mess to begin with.
One mess that doesn’t exist, however, is in Cleveland, where its baseball team will go toe to toe with a team from the north that spends twice as much and is likely to be looking up at CLE once the smoke clears. Again.
Bill Mazeroski is in the Hall for postseason heroics
@Floridaman21
Nonsense.
So why isn’t Hal Smith in the Hall of Fame too? He had the truly big hit in that game, not Maz.
Mazeroski captured eight Gold Gloves, seven of them AFTER his World Series homer, compiling 36 WAR despite a career 84 OPS+. Had he not been the preeminent secondbase defender during the years he played, he never would have sniffed the Hall of Fame.
We can argue all we want whether or not Mazeroski’s superb defensive chops entitled him to Hall status, but let’s not pretend Maz didn’t have to put in many years of everyday play to even be considered for the HOF. He played 12 straight years of 130 or more games (seven of them over 150 games) in an era when taking dead aim at secondbasemen was required of baserunners, and never missed a beat defensively. He was as slick around the bag as they came. THAT’S why Maz is in the Hall of Fame, whether you want to accept his status there or not.
@Avory I said its obvious you are taking a stance based on political ideologies. Its a common theme that you show your biased.
And Im in no way frustrated by the Tigers. They finally have emerged from rebuilding and were competitive last season. The end of 2024 where they finished the season scorching from early Aug on was sone of most exciting baseball I have ever witnessed. So again quit making assumptions.
All we do is win in Cleveland bro bro
Extending Kwan feels like a good start
Ehhh
I wouldn’t extend him. He is an average hitter, with little power who plays amazing defense. There is a reason the couldn’t find a trade for him last year.
Cleveland wants a boatload for him. He’s a great leadoff hitter, and looking at Cleveland’s outfield for the last 10 years please find me better players.
There’s not! They don’t develop outfielders very well, which is why a trade is needed for league-average outfielders.
I wouldn’t offer Issac Paredes, Walker Janek, and Brice Matthews for Kwan. He has only 2 years of control left and I’m pretty sure Paredes is better than Kwan, Janek and Matthews should be kept. I bet as you are a Guards fan, you would take Paredes, Janek, and Matthews in a heartbeat.
I got the mock trade wrong and I just realized it. It’s Spencer Arrighetti, Janek, and Matthews. Still wouldn’t do that.
I would take a bag of soup for Kwan.
I have a bag of soup in my cabinet.
That would put you in the playoffs THIS YEAR, the window closes soon
Kwan is an all-star! The eye test shows he is clearly a winning ballplayer. The disrespect is probably from computer nerds who don’t watch many games.
@Pete’s Sake
The eye test has nothing to do with it.
Neither party has any incentive to extend. Kwan wants to make the most he can and CLE can’t be paying players for past achievements, so they have to realistically project what players like Kwan can provide in their 30’s. They already have too many corner outfielders vying for time who are younger.
What’s the problem with playing Kwan out? He has two more years of control and we’re a contender. After that, thank him for his years in Cleveland and let him pursue that big payday. We had him for his prime, let someone else overpay for his declining years. Big markets can do that, we can’t.
Check his monthly stats for his career. Very hot and cold hitter.
Based solely on his health, more or less, which is the reason most players aren’t consistent performers.
If Kwan is healthy this year, he’ll easily put up a 120 OPS+ season or greater, especially given the advent of the ABS challenge system.
No player in baseball had more balls called strikes on him than Kwan did, and it’s not remotely close.
The problem is he’s never healthy. Hamstrings, wrists… he is never going to out up a 120 ops. Hopefully he is league average, let’s start there. He hasn’t don’t that consistently yet (2/4 years).
He was fine, a delight in fact, when he wasn’t making much but with him close to the 10 million dollar clan you start to looking around and saying, “Hmmm, maybe we could do better, we definitely could do stronger.”. If he could play CF it’d make things easier. LF is that refuge spot where defensive rejects go to hide in most baseball circles. Juan Brito or CJ Kayfus or George Valera might work here, maybe Nolan Jones will find his HR stroke again and reclaim LF after Kwan departs. It’ll happen sometime in 2026. And finally I think they will have some workable answers.
But the fact is, he CAN’T play center field, and we can’t guarantee those hamstrings and wrists will remain healthy past 30. It’s not a matter of an arbitrary “magic” dollar figure–Cleveland signed Andres Gimenez to a contract that will pay him $23.5 million for each of the next three years after this one, for godsake. It’s whether or not a player reaches the stage of his career where a team can be assured he will be worth what he’s being paid. For the next two years, I’m sure he will be, and the team should keep him. After that, all bets are off, and he’ll be able to go to the highest (most foolish) bidder. And I hope he makes a mint and gets to play where he wants to play. He’s a great guy and a smart one. He’ll play the system and he’s certainly entitled to gamble on himself in order to get the biggest payday he can after 2027.
Sure as #### ain’t gonna spend it on a free agent.
Stuart Fairchild is going to hit 30 HRs and 30 steals this year at the mlb level. CLE is saving to spend
in the AL Central, Cleveland only needs to best Detroit, Minnesota, Kansas City, ChiSox.. In full seasons since like 2016, each of those other teams lost 95-100+ games in a single season, some franchises more than once.
Reaching the Playoffs is not as difficult as in most other divisions. At least MLB reduced divisional games from 76 to 52 to balance the schedule some.
Cleveland could spend $20-25 M to upgrade without jeopardizing any. future planning.. Just don’t deal with TB.
I agree. Of the prospects that they acquired, Hopkins, Forret, and Brito into excellent starters, then trade them for a boatload, Jacob Melton into their center fielder for 6 years. Slater de Brun as an everydayer, Boodine as one of the better catchers, and play out Overn’s hitting skills. Dealing with Tampa is going to turn out bad for you in the long run.
Look at Junior Caminero.
Junior Caminero is a hard one to put into this conversation. They acquired him while he was in single A and was not a highly regarded name at the time. Most of the time, these are lottery tickets for teams, a speculative add on. This time it paid off.
They have won some, lost some. The last trade faired well for Cleveland.
There is no one left that stands out as a good fit. If they improve their lineup, they will need to do it through trades.
Contract extensions for the pitchers.
The Fighting Roosters would be a great name for an expansion team. Or garage band.
Lololol
David blitzer is becoming majority owner soon and signed off on raminez 2 extention goof !
Probably nothing baseball related.
It will not be spent lol … the fans can dream that it will be, but it won’t
What leaves me the most frustrated year after year is that I understand we can’t spend like the big boys in major markets. But when we are on the cusp of making a run at a ring our ownership fails time and time again to get that one piece to put us over the top. For example, this offseason all I’ve wanted is Marcel Ozuna. A right handed bat to offer Jose a little protection but instead we have to wait on an organization that hasn’t developed a major league hitter since Jose and then traded away Junior Caminero for Tobias Myers. It’s just frustrating.
Every team outside LA has issues. I’m a Phillies fan and we do about as well in the playoffs as Cleveland. With six times the payroll.
I seriously want to thank Avory & Tigers3232 for an entertaining discussion.. I might want to nitpick or complain that they erred by bringing politics into the thread, but nah. I just want to say thanks for keeping the ad hominems to a minimum.
Trust me, I didn’t intend to bring politics into the debate, only when it was inserted as a basis for attacking my position did I respond. There’s nothing worse than drawing conclusions about a person’s political philosophy on the basis of how a baseball team decides to spend what money it has. Much less draw lines in the sand at “underpaid” baseball players, thereby trivializing the real issues associated with the on-going struggle between labor and capital.
I have real issues with CLE ownership–its treatment of fans and its lousy public relations overall, poor amateur player evaluation, terrible results despite enormous outlays in the international arena–but weighed against the results, Cleveland’s baseball club punches well above its weight.
As I see it, an owner has only three obligations to fulfill in order to qualify as a “good” owner: 1) don’t threaten to move the team elsewhere and make all the capital investments necessary to assure the continued viability of the franchise; 2) hire the very best people that you can find, instill a positive culture and pay-scale that enables them to stay, then get the hell out of the way so they can do their jobs; and 3) spend more or less the same % of your recurring revenue on baseball operations as all other teams do.
Check, check, and check from Cleveland ownership. Heaven help us when the non-local owners take over.
You can’t control for on-field performance, especially given the luck involved in short series. Blaming owners because we’ve lost two World Series in extra innings of game 7, or not going to a World Series (and likely winning it) when up 3 games to 1 at home in an ALCS, or being the prohibitive favorites to go to a World Series when up 2-0 on the Yankees in an ALDS, or any other opportunities we’ve had is misplaced anger.
When put on the precipice of success, it comes down to the performance of players between the lines. We’ve had more than a few star players–players every team in the game would love to have on their team–come up small when the team needed them the most, including such luminaries as Sabathia, Ramirez, Lindor, and Clase. At some point the players have to step up. That’s who I give all the credit to for successes AND for failures, not coaches, managers, or owners. Blaming coaches managers, or owners is just low-hanging fruit. It’s a players’ game, they rise to get to an opportunity and either they perform or they don’t. We’ve had plenty of chances; you can’t WILL your way to a title, you can only give yourself as many bites at the apple as you can and let the chips fall where they may.
@ Avory, yes luck in a short series. In the playoffs, as an example play the Red Sox. Start Kwan, Kayfus, Manzardo, DeLauter, Valera, Naylor and either Rocchio or Schneeman. Opposing them, Crochet or Ranger or Early or Tolle. Starting 6 lefty hitters vs a lefty pitcher. Yep, luck. Or game close late and face Aroldis. Yep, luck.
You are truly an apologist and a yes man for ownership. There is a way to even out the lefty-righty players on the team but that might require spending some money to do so. This ownership chooses not to do it and guys like you see nothing wrong with it. I guess also-rans hang together. You and I are not the same.
@O1Scamp
Oh wow…Cleveland is not going to go to the World Series because it doesn’t have some right-handed hitters to platoon with all its better left-handed hitters when they play the Red Sox? I didn’t know an active roster has sufficient room to carry full platoons at all spots. Good to know.
Never mind that the last time Cleveland faced Garrett Crochet (Sept. 2) they absolutely bombed him (7 ER in 6 innings, 4 homers) and Ranger Suarez is 1-1 vs. CLE in his career. So yeah, it is IMPOSSIBLE for CLE to get by the mighty Sox, so we may as well just give up now. Because baseball on paper is so real!
Never mind that CLE is just as likely (if not more likely) to face Seattle in the postseason and its all RH rotation and closer. But let’s not think about that, or the fact that CLE is built for its home ballpark, let’s just fret and wring our hands about BOSTON!
Because Cleveland’s pitching, you know, it just stinks.
Fans like you just kill me.
Unlike you, I don’t have all of the answers. No one said anything about platooning every player. Personally, I don’t care for the platoon system that much. The Red Sox was merely an example. The Mariners lefties late in the game of Speier & Ferrer are not easy to hit for any player, let alone lefties. As well as many other teams that have tough lefties to face. I have watched for many years as Cleveland has struggled with left-handed pitching. Why is that? Because they had too many lefty hitters and those hitters struggled. Those are just facts.
Could Cleveland’s pitching will them back to the playoffs? Sure. Could the kids rise up and surprise the league. Yep. But when facing teams that have a more rounded team, the challenge might be too much. Impossible, no. Just tougher.
And I am grateful that you said fans like me, because you and I may cheer for the same team, but I don’t want to be associated with you at all beyond that.