Here are a couple of items to monitor on Tuesday, plus a link to submit questions for a live chat with MLBTR’s Steve Adams.
1. Mets’ losing streak
The last time the Mets won a game, the Artemis II crew was still in space. New York has dropped 11 straight after a sweep against the Cubs over the weekend. The club is back home tonight to face the Twins for a three-game set. Nolan McLean will get the ball with a chance to stop the skid. The Mets’ return to New York means we’re officially on Juan Soto watch. Manager Carlos Mendoza said the star outfielder would come back from his calf injury during the homestand.
2. Counsell bristles at Ohtani Rule
With pitching injuries mounting in Chicago, Cubs manager Craig Counsell shared his take on the two-way player rule, which allows teams to carry a pitcher who doesn’t count against the team’s total. “I’ve never understood it,” Counsell told reporters, including Patrick Mooney of The Athletic. “It’s an offensive rule, essentially. It’s a rule to help offense, more than anything, if you ask me. And then there’s one team that’s allowed to carry basically one of both, and he gets special consideration, which is probably the most bizarre rule. For one team.”
Players meet the two-way designation by pitching 20 innings and playing 20 games as the DH or in the field, with three plate appearances needed for those games to count. The requirements can be met in the current season or either of the two previous seasons. Teams are limited to 13 pitchers on the 26-man roster before September.
3. MLBTR chat today:
Our guy Steve Adams will be around at 1 pm CT today to discuss everything going on around the league in a live chat. If you have something to ask him, use this link to submit questions. Follow the chat using the same link, which will also provide a transcript of the conversation once it’s over in case you missed it.
Photo courtesy of Vincent Carchietta, Imagn Images
Hate the Cubs but hate Ohtani more.
Ridiculous rule for one player. If Ohtani doesnt come to MLB, the rule doesnt exist. Basically, special rules for the rich.
Totally agree. Was against it from day one.
Totally agree. If every team had a TWP, then fine, but only one team? Bogus.
Nothing is stopping anyone from having two way players have as many two-way players as you want.
Hate the Yankees, but hate sweet potatoes more….
Olm – I’m like a flower child, I love everything and everyone.
Counsell is right though. Every team is entitled to have 13 pitchers. Ohtani counts as a pitcher based on the number of innings he pitches on the year. They should not be allowed to have a 14th pitcher.
Only if that 14th pitcher is you know who…A 2 time WS champion that’s what has C Counsell pissed…
So you must REALLY hate Fried.
See what I did there?
Hi!!!!!Oh!!!!
I like sweet potatoes, but I hate the Yankees.
Hate the Dodgers, but hate the Dodgers more.
Hate squash but hate olives more. And agree that there shouldn’t be special treatment. If a team had a player like that, sorry but they should figure out how to do it within existing rules, or otherwise it’s a unique advantage, since there’s really only one player like this currently.
Why shouldn’t having the single player in the last 90 years to play on both sides of the ball be an advantage?
I never really understood the limit on pitchers either. If a team wants 9 position players and 17 pitchers let them.
@wadeboggs, having Ohtani is an advantage, they shouldn’t get additional benefits beyond his talent.
Counsell might agree with you on pitcher limits being stupid, thats not the issue, the issue is 1 team getting to bend those rules.
The aspect I agree with is once he leaves as a pitcher he should have to play the field to bat.
For people who hate the rule, I get it. Let’s have a discussion about it (even if counsell sounds like a whiner). For people who “hate”(!?) Ohtani, what on earth is wrong with you. It’s not his rule, he’s a total joy to watch play, a once in a lifetime unicorn who also apologizes to catchers if a foul ball gets too close. Instead of finding joy and awe in what he does, you Eeyores would rather grump about it. Are you trolling or seriously just irrationally hate him because of wrong turns in your own life? It’s really sad.
I don’t hate Ohtani. Not even close. But I do shake my head at how much MLB panders to the guy. It’s like the NBA with Michael Jordan years ago. Ohtani essentially makes the rules.
CF
“Ohtani essentially makes the rules.”
Can you give some examples of other rules that Ohtani makes
tumbleweeds dot gif 😉
there is also when a player leaves the position / field they are removed from the game so when Ohtani pitches and finishes for the day he is allowed to remain as dh. I believe that is also labeled the ohtani rule.
There are other guys who could do the mlb pitcher/hitter- the issue is the rest of them are 4th OF at best and/or 7th guy out of your bullpen. Ohtani is the only one good enough to compete for awards as both a hitter and pitcher.
Other guys will eventually come around, that is why the rule is what it is right now. The guy basically has to be developed internationally, since the way we do it in the US, you basically are at a level to push your ability and that is it- so guys who should be in AAA as a pitcher and A ball as a hitter will just stop hitting (happens with just about every 2 way player). You basically need to come stateside already MLB ready in both- otherwise they will abandon the other.
On the flip side, maybe we see players like Ankeil developed on purpose. Let him be a SP, but do not give up on the bat even in the bigs. Let him take BP, and work on those things. If he ever gets good enough with the bat- you can give them 20 games at DH.
Years ago, I don’t think there was much of an industry or a mindset of coaching up youth ballplayers to be professionals, you got your glove and played ball. Those who loved the game and were the best at it went on to have professional careers.
Today, youth athletes are coached up, specialized, with the goal of becoming a college athlete and/or a pro athlete.
The two-way player rule is what it is in regards to Ohtani. I like the rule as it is. It encourages the development of more two-way players.
I am sort of surprised that we haven’t seen the emergence of a two-way relief pitch.
A catcher that can play good defense, hit the ball, throw 97 mile an hour heater with a slider / changeup to give a team 40 innings out of the bullpen would be a game changer.
I feel like that player in particular will be developed by the “machine” of professional baseball athletes at some point.
If getting into professional baseball as a two-way player becomes a viable path, the “machine” will supply the players to fill the roles.
@No ABS
I think the rule should be that the 2-way player counts as a pitcher not a hitter. That is the only change that needs to be made to it.
The Dodgers are able to carry 14 pitchers were everyone else can only carry 13. Have as many hitters as you want to have on your roster. the other 29 teams that does not have Ohtani can only carry up to 13 pitchers.
@braves25
Totally agree. Especially since Ohtani is exclusively a DH on the other side. Effectively, he’s a pitcher that bats every day, as opposed to a position player that pitches every fifth.
How do you get around the whole warming up aspect of position player coming in to throw relief?
Nothing is stopping the Cubs from developing their own 2WPs.. if it is this huge advantage, why not just develop it in your system?
In the last 20 years, how many two way players have there been? Of those how many have been successful at it. And I’m not talking about just pitchers who were capable of occasionally pinch hitting.
The reality is if you have a player who has the ability to go either way, it makes more sense to develop one talent over the other.
There’s a reason why Ohtani has been called once in a generation talent. In this case it’s not a phrase that’s been thrown around.
Saber – the marginal benefit for a club carrying a TWP is they get an extra bullpen arm. That player doesn’t need to be an Ohtani-level freak to fill that role.. you could just as easily put a glove-first bench player into that TWP role and get the same benefit: you effectively get to carry an extra bullpen arm.
I could be wrong but I am not aware of any club putting serious effort into developing TWPs. In such a competitive league, where clubs try to exploit every single advantage.. if clubs aren’t making a serious effort to develop these players, that tells me the advantage is pretty limited.
The Dodgers didn’t develop any of them either.
Exactly! Counsell needs to shut up and develop his own TWP.
Oh please.. This is about one team outspending everyone to get the only viable 2 way player out there. It shouldn’t come with special rules. Remember the days before the DH? There were a number of pitchers who could hit. There were no special rules for them and there shouldn’t be for Ohtani.
“This is about one team outspending everyone to get the only viable 2 way player out there.”
Damn Angels ruining baseball
I think the biggest inequity with Ohtani is that the umpires give him extra time between innings to warm up. That is an unfair advantage. If he is on base when an inning ends—he is there as an offensive player not a pitcher. The clock should begin ticking at the time of the last out and it should be on Ohtani to be ready when that clock ticks down to start the next half inning.
Agree
This is not a new rule or new accommodation. Before the DH was added to the NL, pitchers had to hit and that’s why this accommodation existed. Any change would be removing something that was already in place for the entire history of the National League.
Until they remove the ability for him to stay in the game once he is removed as a pitcher, he is batting as a DH not a pitcher. If Freddie Freeman has to be ready in 2:45 so should Shohei.
If they want to remove his clause and once he is lifted as a pitcher and is out of the game—then give him “special” treatment.
Pitchers coming out of games and not being able to continue hitting or re-entering has also been in place the entire history of the National League.
You did say “before the DH”—that was not in place for the entire history of the National League.
The time to be mad about it was when it happened. Why now? I don’t think it’s any different than using a position player to serve as cannon fodder in a blowout. He’s just better at it.
How quickly people forget that pitchers were hitting just a few years ago.
..but they weren’t batting as DH’s.
There is some nuance to the timers. It seems pretty common that pitchers get some extra time, based on game circumstances.
If the pitcher coming in as an injury replacement.. weather delay.. any delay that prevents the pitcher from keeping loose.. mound work.. even if the catcher is coming off of the offensive side, I think they give some extra time so he can gear up and take some pitches.
mike127
Absolutely.
Counsell has a point if a rule really only has an effect on one team let alone one player.
….not that they need it, but probably not a good time to poke the bear when the Cubs travel to LA in three days.
Every single rule change to baseball since that first game in Hoboken has been to favor hitters.
Because fanboys prefer 11-10 over 1-0 games.
Meanwhile soccer passed rules to protect the goalie years ago. Football is constantly changing rules to protect the quarterback. Somehow other sports have figured out who is the most important player on the field. Baseball?
source?
The Mets seem to have found a way to avoid a late season collapse this year.
It’s only the “Ohtani rule” because nobody else is good enough to be on both sides of the ball that well. It’s not his fault he’s a unicorn.
We don’t know if anybody else is good enough, because no one else ever got the chance on a full time basis. You can’t count when pitchers batted pre-DH, because none of them were allowed to really try hard. Managers frowned on pitchers running hard or putting in a lot of batting practice. But there have been many pitchers over the years that COULD have done it. MadBum comes to mind. But also German Marquez, Michael Lorenzen, Carlos Zambrano, Mike Hampton, and several others had the tools to becomes seriously good DHs if given the chance that Ohtani has been gifted.
hiflew, none of those players were as good with the bat as Ohtani is
Because they didn’t get the chance. Ohtani wouldn’t be good with the bat if he only got to hit on the days he pitches like those guys.
Do you realize how hard it is to do both at a high level? Most of those guys pitching would suffer drastically, and again, I don’t think they were that good with the bat to try in the first place. They were just good hitting for a pitcher. Maybe Mike Hampton could’ve done it?
Let me remind everyone IMO Babe Ruth was never a two player that everyone made him out to be he was a pitcher for the Red Sox and a batter for the Yankees in his career as a Yankee he only started 5 games as a pitcher the rest of his career he batted Ohtani is a true two way player if you don’t believe me about Ruth look up the baseball encyclopedia
It’s not just that it’s hard to do both at a high level, it’s also incredibly difficult to even attempt it now because of the position player and pitcher classifications.
Jake Cronenworth was a closer in college and played as a 2 way player in the minors but when he broke in to the majors he won the padres staring job at 2B. Playing everyday in the field locked him in as a position player and never established pitching eligibility which basically wiped out any shot of him being a 2 way player. Matt Davidson on the white Sox had a shot to do both too but you’re not going to give a bench bat enough of a runway to pitch to get to the innings threshold and once they don’t have eligibility then you can’t really use them that way.
The way the rule is drafted it really only allows an Ohtani type, elite 2 way player. They’ve created barriers to keep out anyone else who could potentially do this
I agree that most couldn’t do it. But let’s not pretend that Ohtani is really some kind of one of a kind miracle either. He was only allowed to do it because of his contract and his status as a free agent. If he had been drafted like any American player, he would have been forced to choose in the minor leagues.
That’s because EVERY pitcher at that time was a two way player.
The reality is that he is a one of a kind miracle. It’s what is. Everyday we get evidence of it. It’s not pretend.
You are the one pretending others could do it.
Whatever dude.
Reality is reality. It’s him and there is no one remotely close to him.
Sorry.
When they were in Little League.
DeGrom was a shortstop signed to pitch, and was a decent hitting pitcher when pitchers still came to bat.
But as a whole, the pitcher hitting in the nine hole was usually an automatic out. And the National League was at a disadvantage because they has to pinch hit late in games and conseqeuntly used more pitchers than the American League who could leave a pitcher in for another inning without having to replace him because he might have to bat in a crucial situation.
But those days are gone. The game has totally changed. Comparisons of the old rules and current rules are ridiculous.
Today, Armando Gallaraga would have has his perfect game with video review.
Today Sandy Koufax would have has a reconstructive surgery which could have extended his career another 7 years to truly have been the best ever.
Today, Barry Bonds would have had to sit out a season after being drug tested before he would have ever has a chance to break the home run record.
It’s all a moot point.
But restricting how the roster is composed other than mandating that there be 26 active players is ridiculous. Let the teams determine how to construct the mix. Then no arguments about Ohtani. Let the best 26 man team win.
What exactly has Craig Counsell won as a manger? What a tiny, tiny, tiny man…
Pathetic!
You sound like a girly man.
Away in a manger?
He won a huge paycheck being disloyal to his brewers.
Pretty simple “fix”…which changes nothing…on the day Ohtani pitchers the Dodgers are only allowed 12 pitchers in bullpen roles. One must be “silently ineligible” to pitch on that day.
Simply, note the previous day starter as that person and move on. He isn’t pitching any way and there is no risk of a 27 inning game under today’s rules where you’re going to use everyone.
Rebuilding teams should take advantage of this. Like the Rockies could have Dollander and other young pitchers DH 20 times for them throughout their rebuild. Then for a couple years they can carry more pitchers.
This. Other teams should game the rule.
$400 million payroll
11 consecutive losses
sweet baby jesus
When do the Stearns Watch and Mendoza Watch begin?
Both shoulda been fired last yr
But its the muts…
I would say Mendoza has crossed some sort of line
Artemis II was never in space! But it’s no conspiracy that the Mets suck
Don’t get anywhere near Buzz Aldrin, Ben.
There’s also a Yankees-Red Sox series starting tonight but nobody’s hyping it cos Boston are joint bottom of the AL East.
But Buzz was the one who told me! lol
Probably won’t see too many moon shots from the Sox lineup this week
I’m sure he was drunk when he told ya! Like usual. Of course drinking is how he copes with having to live a lie every day of his life.
Another part of the rule that isn’t fair is that Ohtani gets to stay at DH when he leaves as a pitcher.
If anything, I’d like to see teams keep the DH spot even if the DH moves to another position. This would help teams when they have an unexpected injury, allow backup catcher to play as DH more frequently and maybe add to strategy.
Yes, this rule, more than the pitcher roster limit rule, was made solely for Ohtani. They literally created a rule to help him stay in the game longer. I think you’re correct about extending it so teams don’t lose their DH if they swap positions.
The 2 Way rule is stupid. Putting a limit on the number of pitchers on a roster is stupid, too. Teams should be able to have as many or as little as possible. Why does it matter what position someone is listed at anyway?
I think the bigger rule issue is allowing Ohtani to stay in as DH when he is removed as the starting pitcher. If you want a 2 way player, then they should have to go to the field or come out of the lineup.
Here’s a great idea, how about MLB allows teams to carry whatever compliment of hitters and pitchers they want up to the 26 person roster limit. Relax the rules on being able to send players up and down to the minors freely to create opportunities for rest, injury prevention or a chance to reset regardless of their tenure in baseball. Have an IL designation for rest if that’s better received.
I get Counsell’s point but he’s going after the symptom and not the root cause.
Apparently they don’t want games to be too long.
While we are at it, the rules for when allowing position players to pitch is also stupid. If a team wants to save their bullpen, the score or inning shouldn’t matter.
Position players pitching more sad and pathetic than pitchers hitting
Ferpad another rule they should get rid of is having a relief pitcher come in and pitch 3 innings in a blow out game and get a save everytime I see this when I check the box scores I get pi**Ed off because it’s not necessary big deal he saved his manager from bringing in another pitcher if that’s the case then the relief pitcher should get the win instead also get rid of the man starting on 2nd base in extra innings I think both rules suck
Dbrass – Yes that awful ghost runner baloney needs to also go.
***Still looking for a replacement manager for the MLBTR Fans Fantasy Baseball League.
More info under yesterday’s Opener.
I would be willing to take over the fantasy team.
Heya! Right now, I’ve got two candidates ahead of you, but please feel free to email at mlbtrfantasybaseball@yahoo.com and I’ll add you in for consideration! Thanks, FF!
MLB will do whatever it can to protect their cheating cash cow in LA. I’m sure they will continue to come up with more rules just for him as long as he is in the league. Once he retires back to Japan and keeps all his deferred money without paying taxes on it they will change the rules back.
Here’s a trivia question for you, when did this rule come in to play — was it for the Dodgers specifically?
When Ohtani played for the Angels, in games that he pitched, when he came out of the game, he could no longer hit. Unless he stayed in the game as an outfielder when being replaced, which he did a couple of times because he was due to hit in the next inning.
I believe the rule was changed when he became a free agent, and everyone knew he was going to sign with the Dodgers.
The “Ohtani Rule” came into affect before 2022 season. Ohtani joined Dodgers for the 2023 season. Just to make minor correction here ^
latimes.com/sports/story/2022-04-04/shohei-ohtani-…
Bonus question, when did the Dodgers cheat? In 2017? No that was the Astros. In 2018? No that was the Red Sox… In your jealous mind? Yep
This is why expanding rosters by 1 player made no sense. It should be 28 man roster. 1 extra pitcher and 1 hitter. This would also be good if we ever have a 17 inning game.
They need to fully get rid of Manfred Ball. That’s a whole different argument.
They’ve had this rule since 2020. Where was this hate for it when he was on the Angels?
Plenty of people have disliked this rule the whole time.
Because it’s the perfect storm of Dodger Hate and Ohtani Hate, so now its more en vogue. :/
Fred3 – Í won’t disagree there is some Dodger backlash from fans. But I always hated those rules when he was on the Angels (two way player, staying as DH when he leaves as pitcher, two way rule qualifications).
Curtis Herbert is still years away.
You either let teams carry an extra pitcher or Ohtani counts to your pitcher count.
I understand that Ohtani is incredibly special, but that is a huge advantage for the Dodgers. Every team should be mad.
Facts for the fact-challenged:
(a) the rule was there when Ohtani signed…with the ANGELS.
(b) any team can take advantage of that rule
(c) three teams have guys in the minors they are developing into 2WP.
thanks for listening!
Underdog – Agree with everything except B. Ohtani was grandfathered as a two way player in 2022 with qualifications that allowed for him to immediately qualify as two way player. Not so easy for anyone to qualify especially when placing limits of three AB for games as DH.
That eliminated someone like Michael Lorenzen who actually pitched and played OF/PH as opposed to DH only.
Right, but wasn’t he still with angels for that 2022 season? (rule came into play before 2022 season) Maybe these are all quibbles anyway, but making sure the timeline was correct here.
Underdog – Yes, he was still with the Angls when the rule came into play. Before that he had to leave as the DH when he left as the pitcher.
Indeed, it was when he was with the Angels in 2022. He didn’t move to the LAD until 2024.
They also changed the rule in 2024 to allow it to go back 2 years for eligibility when Ohtani had to have surgery. He would have lost his two way eligibility under the original rule but they adjusted it for him specifically so he could keep it
Herc33 – Thanks for confirming that. I thought that was the case but couldn’t find it anywhere.
I saw it referenced in a CBS sports article from Mike Axisa that came out this morning but I didn’t know about it before either.
I think it’s somewhat intentional that we don’t know about it because he writes, “ MLB quietly changed the rule in 2024 from meeting the criteria in the previous season to any of the two previous seasons. That allowed Ohtani to keep two-way status after his elbow surgery year, a seemingly deliberate move made to directly benefit Ohtani and the Dodgers.”
Herc33 – Will check that out. Axisa used to run the best Yankees blog site (River Avenue Blues).
If underdog is a dodgers fan I’m calling Alanís morrisette to revise a song.
Counsell needs to shut-up and manage. Ohtani plays both ways and has enough Abs to easily qualify as a position player. If this is an issue that bothers the league. MLB needs to get rid of roster restrictions. That simple.
Stupid MLB for making sure that it’s best and most popular player can be effectively utilized.
Can’t Manfred see how much better it would be if MLB’s best and most popular player had to play less because of the rules.
This rule has nothing to do with protecting Ohtani’s play time. If anything he pitches less because of this rule allowing LAD to have a 6 man rotation with a full bullpen.
Every other team has 5 starters and 8 relievers, but the Dodgers get 6 starters and 8 relievers because Ohtani doesn’t count as a “pitcher”. I’m all for Ohtani pitching and hitting, he’s a special player, but the actual effect of this rule on roster limits is basically that the Dodgers can carry Wrobleski or Sheehan in the rotation not that it allows Ohtani to pitch more.
It allows him to stay in the game as DH after he pitches.
Allowing him to pitch every 6 days instead of every 5 almost certainly helps him to get more PA’s since he gets more recovery time
The real issue is that the roster rule is antiquated, and when they instituted the new rules requiring relievers to throw to so many batters, this rule could’ve been changed too.
I hate the Dodgers. Ohtani is the best all-around player ever. Counsell is a whiny turtlehead and I can’t stand him. But he isn’t wrong. Simple fix- who cares how many pitchers a team rosters?
The Dodgers would probably have a 12 man bullpen with quality arms if there was no limit
This rule is so dumb, Commissioner Manfred must have made it.
If they allowed 14 pitchers Counsell would be howling about the Dodgers having an extra hitter. It’s just noise.
Everyone forgets Rick Ankiel.
And be angry at the Angels years ago instead of complaining today about the Dodgers.