The Blue Jays acquired reliever Sergio Santos from the White Sox for righty prospect Nestor Molina, announced the team.
In Santos, 28, Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos found his closer on the trade market. The converted infielder posted a 3.55 ERA, 13.1 K/9, 4.1 BB/9, 0.85 HR/9, and 43% groundball rate in 63 1/3 innings for the White Sox this year, saving 30 games in 36 tries. He was formerly a shortstop in Toronto's minor league system from 2006-08. It was surprising to see Santos (pictured) dealt, as there had been no rumors and he signed a three-year, $8.25MM deal with the Sox in September. The contract includes three club options, so the Blue Jays have cost certainty on Santos potentially through 2017. For fantasy analysis of Toronto's Santos acquisition, check out Bryan Grosnick's post at CloserNews.
Molina, 22, posted a 2.21 ERA, 10.2 K/9, 1.1 BB/9, and 0.6 HR/9 in 130 1/3 innings across High and Double-A this year. Molina is a converted infielder himself, and appears close to MLB-ready. Though Molina was not among the Blue Jays' top 30 prospects in Baseball America's handbook before the season, his stock presumably rose with his excellent 2011. Molina is a good prospect who doesn't offer much projection, writes ESPN's Keith Law. Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus agrees, saying "his stuff falls well below his statistics," and he projects as a #4 starter with a shot at becoming a #3.
"This is the start of a rebuilding," White Sox GM Kenny Williams told reporters today, noting that it is not "the start of falling domino rebuilding." Santos himself was affordable, but perhaps Williams preferred a future rotation candidate in Molina. A lot is riding on Molina after this surprising one-for-one swap. Given Williams' rebuilding comment, look for plenty of rumors regarding John Danks, Gavin Floyd, Carlos Quentin, and others in the coming weeks, although the offers have disappointed Williams to date.
Anthopoulos and Williams matched up once before, on the July deal that sent Jason Frasor and Zach Stewart to Chicago for Edwin Jackson and Mark Teahen.
Photo courtesy of Icon SMI.
Wow, didnt see that. AA pulling more rabits out of his hat!
Is he supposed to be the Jays new closer? I’m kinda disappointed if he is.
-upon actually doing research, was a dumb knee-jerk comment. Great trade for the Jays. Good value going both ways
probably because u dont know any better.. santos graded out as having the #1 out pitch in all of baseball with his slider. with mid-high 90’s heat to go along with it, hes dominating
AA does it again. This guy is unbelievable. We can now lump Santos into the “Bronson Arroyo Club” of those players who signed club-friendly deals only to see it used as a way to ship them out of town.
Uh, he gave up his best relief pitching prospect with an absurd K/BB rate for a guy who was more ready. This is hardly a genius move and won’t be seen otherwise.
“AA does it again” – I laugh and think of Napoli anytime anyone ever declares AA a genius, he isnt.
Wow, how many times can it be said: Napoli would have been a bench player in Toronto. No playing time, blocked at every position by someone who already had an everyday job. He wouldn’t have had his breakout year.
He was blocked at DH by Encarnation? Either AA is delusional or you are for refusing to admit he made an actual bad deal and a mistake.
AA is good but holy ^%$%& do the posters on here overrate the hell out of him. All his big successes have had more to do with the Angels and White Sox not being run intelligently, not AA being good at his job. He’s not a dummy, but he’s definitely not a genius.
Last year was the first year Molina has shown anywhere close to that type of “absurd” K rate. AA filled the Blue Jays biggest need with someone who just converted to being a pitcher and did it damn well in his first season full time. Oh and he’s signed to essentially a 6 yr/30m contract! This in a market where good/very good Closers are going for $10m+ AAV. Its a damn good move
When youve had JPR as your gm for a while trsut me , anything AA does is fantastic lol Calm down with the hate for fans who have faith in their GM its a rare thing, hes only been here for 2 years and made mostly quality moves , the Napoli one wasnt. You cant bat 1.000! Let them justify everything he does , theyre a bit delusional sometimes and ima huge AA/Jays fan.
It’s easy to say that now. I would say he lost the trade, but it wasn’t necessarily a bad one. He filled a need. FF was lights out after the AS break.
Why are people still talking about Napoli, prior to 2011, who was a .250 hitter, with 20 home run power in a bench role. Mathis was the every day catcher, not Napoli, who spent time at first and DH to get at bats. That is the player AA traded. Just an FYI, but when Napoli caught fire in Texas, so did E5. Napoli hit .365, E5 hit .361. Napoli hit 17 home runs, E5 hit 15, Napoli drove in 41 runs, E5 drove in more at 43. Napoli had a 1.083 OPS, E5 had a 1.058 OPS during the same time period. If Napoli is on Toronto, neither player comes close to matching their second half stats, because its impossible to hit a ball on the bench. When fans accept reality, perhaps then these stupid posts about post season Napoli will end. The trade was made before the season started, NOT after it ended.
I concur.
People talk about it because, well the smart fans and anayst knew that Napoli was being burried in Anaheim for some reason, and when Toronto traded for him we were all excited as he could’ve been an excellent DH (much better than EE..which I was arguing with people on here about last year) and can also spell Arencibia from time to time. I was highly annoyed and sad when they just dumped Napoli for a useless reliever that ended up being crap anyways. Anyone with a brain knew Napoli would excel in Arlington, just like he would have in Toronto.
They had no need for Napoli. They had a need for relievers. Your comment is based on emotion, and viewed in hindsight.
which is why Texas was the only team to figure this out? come one man, that’s ridiculous
from what i remember, AA didnt want to go to arbitration with napoli, arencibia was given the full time job and molina was there to mentor him. encarnacion was promised playing time or hopes to be a type b something along those lines. at least the jays will get a type b pick from fransisco, in the ened its better than having wells at 21 million per season.
it’s clear, everyone prefers Mathis but Texas…
*sigh* Reading into my comment. I’ve never claimed Anthopolous is a “genius” nor do I think of anything he does with any emotion. Yes, Encarnacion was going to be DH/3B. Lind was going to be everyday 1B. Arencibia was going to be everyday catcher. Napoli was dealt because they saw nowhere for him to play and he wasn’t a long term piece. All I’m doing is repeating what has been said dozens of times on the Blue Jays 2011 plans.
I don’t understand why hes overrated, yes jays fans can be annoying, but in a few years he has made a good team with a low payroll and one of the best farm systems in the game, that has graduated players like Lawire. To say he not a genius because he does not win every trade by a landslide is crazy high expectations. Every team in baseball makes moves they regret, its not like trading Napoli crippled this franchise, keeping them would not have got them into the playoffs so its no big deal really, yea they could have maybe got more for him if they held onto him this year then the draft pick and a year of a closer but its not really that bad. Tim who runs this website said last week that AA has had the best start to being a GM that he can ever think of so thats high praise. Jays fans should be happy hes done a really good job.
It’s not that he didn’t hold onto Napoli. It’s that he only got Frank Francisco for him.
Which is all anybody could’ve gotten for him because, as has been pointed out, the trade occurred before the season began. It was fair value. He was easy to trade because of the value he had at the time, and the fact that he had no role on the Jays. (Unlike this trade of Molina, which must’ve been hard. The White Sox got a good player.)
That being said, I don’t think any GM is a genius. But AA is proving himself one of the top GMs in the game, and the Napoli trade does nothing to mitigate that.
what did the angels get for him? oh yeah, Vernon Wells. Like its been said time and time again, FF for Napoli at the time was fair value…the angels thought the same.
Never said the Angels weren’t morons. It’s why Reagins no longer has a job.
Molina has had 5 years in the minors and has only 5 games at the AA level. It took him 4 and a half years to get out of A ball. Great deal for the jays
Not quite. Must have missed the part where he was a converted infielder.
Not quite yourself.
More like 3 1/2. 1 game in 2007 doesn’t really count.
molina is 23, santos was a converted infielder.
Somebody needs to do a better job of reading articles and clicking links for players to figure out how long they’ve been at certain levels.
Here, let me help you: “Molina is a converted infielder himself, and appears close to MLB-ready.” IN the article itself.
2007: 1 game at Rookie Level
2008: 20 games at Rookie (1 year)
2009: Rookie and A-Ball (2nd Year)
2010: A & High A (3rd Year)
2011: 21 games at High A and 5 games at AA (4th Year)
DOES NOT EQUAL “taking 4 and a half years to get out of A ball” as shortty suggested. He spent time in AA this season.
We didn’t need Napoli, we shipped him off for something we needed. How is that stupid? It would’ve been dumber for him to keep a C/1B/DH cross when we had 2 Catchers, an everyday 1B and a bunch of DH options and a few more that can play 1B when Lind was off. Napoli was traded for to be traded away. Also, hindsight is 20/20 Pete, you wouldn’t call AA dumb if Napoli had a bad year.
Agreed.
Mike Napoli was 211/342/500 on June 9 and being benched for Moreland and Torrealba. No naysayers then; both he and FF were doing a whole lot of nothing.If someone told me that same person was gonna hit almost .400 from July to November, and go .383/466/708 post-ASB, you’d have to be crazy.It’s all hindsight. Pure and simple.
benched for an 842 OPS as a catcher and you act like it makes sense
then you’re surprised that when his average came back to normal that OPS shot up with it. genius
there were naysayers the minute the trade was made because everyone knew napoli would mash in a hitter’s park
“there were naysayers the minute the trade was made because everyone knew napoli would mash in a hitter’s park”
With playing time, which he wouldn’t have had.
I don’t understand why that makes it defensible. It’s ok to trade a player you weren’t going to use even though it turns out he was really good? Is there no fault for not realizing what his potential was and trading him away for a poor return (even if it was at a position of need)?
We didn’t even necessarily need FF because we had a big bullpen already last year coming into the season esp. since they signed Rauch first. Should of kept Napoli and EE to do DH and 1B duty. Plus we had Rivera at the same time playing first DH and the outfield til we traded him… I would of given Napoli a chance but that’s just me as a Jays fan. Either way whats done is done and I still don’t feel too bad about losing any of them now because AA got another compensation pick from Rauch and FF signing in NY.
which is pure stupidity if true, since there were 3 positions for him to rotate through
and i don’t believe that any of you think that was a real problem anyway. after all, the rangers had the exact same situation when they acquired him, with moreland (and davis), torrealba, and young in napoli’s way. they also coveted relievers. yet they still knew enough to make the swap and find him at-bats
pick any rationalization you want. they’re all foolish
Also, you have to remember that Napoli trade was primarily done to open up money for the Jose Bautista extension. So I ask you, would you rather have had Napoli or Bautista under contract for 5 years???
i thought the jays had all the money in the world? funny how the facts change to fit the rationalization of the moment
Holy negative nancy batman, dont try and prove all “crazy” Jays fans wrong, they’re too many! You’ll never win! They have all been hypnotized and empregnated by AA! The King of All Gods! Muhahahahahahahahahahah!!
I was waiting to see how many comments it took before someone started with the “AA is a genius” praise. I’m surprised it took as long as it did. Most of the Jays fans are slacking today, huh?
In what universe is Molina Toronto’s #1 pitching prospect? Keith Law just said he was their MAYBE SIXTH BEST.
You must be a Red Sox fan
AA, I’m sort of confused. Does this mean we are going for it??
Santos is under control for 6 more seasons with club options for ’15, ’16, and ’17.
Ok.. so are you trying to say it is a good short term and long term move? Use your words!
Based on this deal alone? No, it doesn’t, as the other reply to you indicated he is signed possibly through 2017, that is a long term deal if I ever saw one meaning our competitive window could be 3 years out still. If you see AA sign Fielder, then consider that we are “going for it” now and for the foreseeable future.
Much better
WOW, so much for “Molina is 1000% untouchable”.
Hey MLBTR readers, NO ONE IS UNTOUCHABLE.
Polish them apples!
they just extended him. Did Robin not like him?
Hopefully this is one of Kenny’s good low key moves
Uhhh… what? Santos is pretty good but sucks that we gave up Molina. Unless the club thinks he is definitely a future reliever, this could be a solid trade for the White Sox.
At the moment, it’s a good trade for the Jays.
Agree and agree. Good for Jays now, I’d like to see him close. There’s been some talk lately that Molina would be pruned to close, but I don’t see him as a huge upgrade over Sale (if Sale figures it out at the MLB level).
if sale figures it out at the MLB level????? has you seen his stats he is already a great reliever and will be moved into the rotation this coming season
it will be great if molina is able someday to turn out to be…sergio santos. i think the jays just hit the fast forward button here, and he comes with a 6-year contract (with three club options along the way)
if molina can hack it as a starter, though, the white sox win
Molina would have eventually been “pushed” into Jays bullpen if he made the starting rotation.
its a solid trade for both teams…fills the closer need for the jay, he was awesome last year has a ton of potential and is cheap…it fills the pitching depth need for the sox..
Who won this? I thought Molina was one of our big guys
I don’t think it’s a “who won” issue. Trades are about each side acquiring what they want. Ideally, both sides should “win”. Otherwise no one would want to deal with the guy who is always taking advantage.
Well Molina has six years of control and was arguably the best Jays pitcher in the system. If Nestor goes on to be a starter, and he could be a good one, then the Jays lose the deal in terms of value. If he ends up reliever in the end, and he could be a great one, then its more of an equivalency trade since both pitchers are shutdown relivers and the Jays want the more experienced one now to compete.
Sad to see Nestor go, he has a great splitter and fastball with ridiculous command, White Sox fans should be pleased with this.
“Well Molina has six years of control”
just like santos
Love/Hate acquisition. AA wants to compete this season.
noooo, this breaks my heart….Molina will be a stud
Wow. Talk about a deal out of nowhere. Molina is a quality prospect, but you got to give to get.
For AA to trade Molina, after a great year, when his value was at its peak, it is a great move. Toronto gets a cost controlled closer that can also grow with the team. Bailey would have cost at least 3 top prospects, including Molina probably, so losing one to gain a closer that is just as dominating as Bailey is a great move by the Jays. Santos is locked down for six years, where Bailey isn’t and he could demand twice as much as Santos earns. It is now another area stroked off the shopping list, where AA has traded a fringe pitcher in Mills for their back up catcher and one elite prospect for a closer that has huge potential to get even better. Chicago wins, Toronto wins this deal, because both teams acquired what they needed.
A bird in hand is better than 2 in the bush (league).
exactly,AA sid he would dip into the prospect pot to fill needs and that he did. good thing is that the pot is deep and full.
Santos was the only halfway decent reliever for the Sox in 2011.
Why did they do this?
This is a stupid comment we have a very solid pen
wait for the rest of the firesale.
are you serious?
Thornton – 2.62 FIP
Chris Sale – 3.12 FIP
Crain – 3.70 FIP
Ohman – 4.10 FIP
That’s an above average pen.
Left-handed batter-heavy AL East?
Molina has to be a good pitcher, pitching to his brothers growing up.
He’s not that kind of Molina
I believe that your joke-o-meter is broken.
Ok, now can we stop going on about a closer?
WE NEED MOAR CLOSERS
He was aquired for closing? I thought we were simply purging ourselves of all the Molinas in our system.
At first I was highly confused, but a recent report had Nestor as the Jays second best prospect so I guess this could be a pretty good trade for both sides.
And if the White Sox end up trading Thornton and moving Sale to the rotation, who the hell is left in their pen?
Jason “X-factor” Frasor
He’s definitely not their second best prospect. However, people were pretty high on him.
I think Sickels had him at 2 thanks to the out pitch splitter and his readiness to contribute.
apparently there is some guy ranking him their second. I thought he would have still been behind Hutchinson, McGuire and possibly Gose, Marisnick, and Hech.
Brian Bruney (sigh).
Molina rates well…but..I doubt he rates ahead of D’Arnaud, Gose, Hutchison, McGuire, Marisnick, Nicolino, Syndergaard & Sanchez
I know jack about him, just repeated what the first item from Google told me. Think the guy who did the rankings is more of a results guy than tools and projection guy (not that he ignores them). He had Gose at like 6 or 8 and a popular Braves prospect a lot lower than other sources because they haven’t put their tools together yet (namely power).
Fair enough…at the very least…it tells you some people think he is that high…probably includes Ken Williams given he “targeted” Molina instead of shopping Santos around baseball.
i agree good sir
Addison Reed thrown into the closer role?
Guessing Thornton, or maybe even Peavy. They still have Crain and Frasor too. Could be any of them.
Chris Sale maybe. If he’s not rotation bound
gotta at least let sale try to start. the sox are rebuilding, so there’s little to lose
Say what? This one I dont know about…
You need to give to get, I’m hoping that its a win/win for both teams.
A quality prospect for a pretty solid closer?? Even if Molina was a stud in A and AA ball this year he is at least two years away..Plugging Santos in as the closer in TOR will def shore up the bullpen tho…I gotta give it to AA for now, see how Molina pans out I guess..
Molina was placed on the 40man recently, I think he would have been up by June/July.
The move to the 40 man roster was to protect him from the Rule 5 draft I believe. Molina has not even played in AAA, it is highly unlikely he plays in 2012, but this is a good trade for both teams. Win-Win.
I remember when Chris Sale pitched in AAA that was a nice weekend.
He was placed on the 40man because he’d be exposed to the rule-5 draft otherwise. Having said that, he’s probably not 2 years away.
Pretty crazy deal. Molina was talked up as one of the Jays’ best pitching prospects, but Santos is signed to a very team-friendly contract for a long time and a quality RP so we gave up a prospect for a solid arm in the bigs right now. Cool
This could be a pretty even trade down the line, Santos is just filthy with The strikeouts but Molina looked like he had some promise , although i believe he was suspected to be groomed as a closer as well.
i wonder if the jays just spent this past month pumping up molina’s reputation just to bring him to slaughter, ala yankees style.
I think his track record in the minors speaks for itself. I think there’s a good chance Molina is at least a solid closer like the Sox are giving up here.
Pretty even trade on paper IMO.
Completely agree. Jays get a guy that’s proven he can do it at the major league level and the Sox get a guy with a little more upside but is still a couple years away from making an impact in the majors.
And they are bothy controlled for 6 years, hard to be more even then that.
A “smart” trade IMO…works well for both team.
47 walks and 277 K’s in 292 minor league IPs, I think his numbers speak for themselves. He dominated the heck out of AA when he went there, his ETA is probably late 2012.
it would be foolish for the sox to rush him to the majors. successful or not, he pitched 22 innings at AA this year
he had 5 starts in AA, give him some time
love/hate the deal. But its a safe gamble. Considering the team friendly deal for santos.
The fact that Santos has so few innings on his arm probably played a role as well.
That in my eyes has always been such a huge plus for Sergio.
I’m not sure I would’ve pulled the trigger on this myself, but AA definitely sold high on Molina. His stock may never get this high again.
Sal Fasano will be heartbroken. His fu-manchu is already drooping.
For those Blue Jays fans concerned/questioning this move just know you acquired a CHEAP closer who is 28 and only started pitching 2 years ago. Look at these annual salaries owed to Santos…
12: $1m, 13: $2.75m, 14: $3.75m, 15: $6m (club option), 16: $8.75m (club option) 17: $8.75m (club option). $750k buyout on each option.
There isnt a cheaper option, money wise, on the market. Be happy, be very happy.
What an unbelievably Jays-friendly contract. If it comes down to it and the Jays fall out of contention, he’d be easily moved to a team in need of a bullpen arm in the chase…
Pretty sure they did not give up a plus prospect to pick up a guy they could have until 2017 in order to maybe flip him at the deadline.
Yeah with that contract, club options and so much flexibility, I’m surprised it didn’t take something more.
White Sox must have been really impressed with Molina. I don’t like the trade for the White Sox now but this is still a good one for the future IMO. I think Molina could be a good starter or a great late inning reliever.
Jays improve now, get great value and flexibility. They have other arms coming up too so I like it from our perspective too.
I think that last sentence is one of the more insightful. The jays can make a trade with a plus pitching prospect like Molina because of the depth of pitching they have on the farm.
Hopefully it works out for both sides. Sox do like their ex-jays though.
they sold about as high as possible on molina. he could beat the odds and continue crazy success as a starter, but in all probability this move will even out over time
Considering teams pay 9-12M for closers on the market these days, that really is a great deal.
THis makes no sense! KW what are you doing. He was our best reliever. Please don’t tell me Thorton is our guy.
Nope. Thornton will be traded also.
Come I just put my Dog down, Now one of my favorite players is dealt. Great.
Did he taste delicious? Sorry about Molina.
Wow, you can go straight to hell. If you’re going to make a joke about death at least make it funny.
Really hate to give up Molina, but Santos was a pretty decent pick up.
I think I’d have to call this an even deal.
I would have loved to see a bigger trade involving Beckham (that the Sox also appear willing to move).. but either way, a solid, cheap closer in this ridiculous closer market is never a bad thing… Sucks losing Molina, but the Jays have a ton of young arms, and they could afford to lose him, given the return.
IMO Jays have to take a bad contract to get Beckham. He is in his final pre-arb year.
Wow, this is crazy!!! Came out of nowhere, very surprised the Sox would trade Santos, he’s filthy.
Kenny Williams: never a dull offseason moment. A very interesting sell-high move. The WSox might have one of the most intreresting rotations in the game next year:
Peavy
Danks or Floyd
Sale
Molina
Stewart/Humber
Peavy’s gotta be on the block if Chicago puts in some money…
If he’s healthy, he’s staying (at least for the 1st half of the season). If he’s not, he’s untradeable.
not true, see vernon wells
I would be surprised if Molina starts in the Majors, the kid only played a couple games in AA last year… going to need another season of grooming.
most likely. i could see him getting called up later in 2012…
I don’t think it’s likely that you’ll see Molina in the majors in 2012 other than as a September call-up. He would’ve been up sooner with the Jays I think, but KW is saying that the Sox are rebuilding. I would think they’d want Molina to continue starting, probably initially in AA with an early move to AAA if he continues to dominate. He’s a baby, so why rush him, and why start his clock early if they’re not contending?
Of course, anything’s possible in the AL Central.
Not quite. Must have missed the part where he was a converted infielder…
I like the trade for both sides actually… “IF” Santos improves on last yr. He’s good & ready now, where it looks like Molina is about a year or late call up away. I like his whip, his k/9 & K/BB ratio…. Looks like sick #s at the AA level. Like to see him do the same at AAA.
There is almost no difference between AA and AAA. AAA is usually full of org filler types.
Don’t see what your point is… If the Sox feel he’s about a year or late (Sep type) callup away, he may start at AA then go to AAA That’s the “normal” progression…. Yes, exceptions to that rule are brought up straight from AA. But the way the Sox have been going it’s been from AAA to the bigs… See Viciedo, De Aza, Santos, Danks, etc… So again, not sure what the point of your reply to mine was…
Point is pretty clear. There isnt much to prove at AAA for prospects that dominate AA.
Oh good lord…. No, it’s “pretty clear” that Nit picking whether he goes to AAA or AA is pretty “pointless” LolZ!! …
Please feel free to ignore my posts in the future, thank you in advance…
That’s fine. Except the main point of your post was “lets see him do it at the AAA level” Calling your own post pointless is fine with me.
No, your nitpicking is pointless….
So now I will nit pick… Reading is a skill, I said, “Like to see him do the same in AAA” not ‘lets’… If you’re gonna nit pick, at least get it straight…
And that reply there is just pure genius, nm344… Such brilliance… Why didn’t anyone else posting on this article think of that… Thank you Captain Obvious…
Lol you’re still posting here? Time to get a life bro.
Looks like a win-win to me for now, both teams get what they want. Jays get a dominant closer on a good contract, while the White Sox get a nearly ready mid-rotation starter. To me, this signals that Danks or Floyd will be moved for sure.
or both. Sox should just rebuild.
playing a couple games at AA isn’t nearly ready, he’s going to need probably another year in the minors. he’s a great prospect who’s hard to let go of.
I am in shock…totally blindsided me…can’t believe they let Santos go…really would like to be in Kenny’s head..there has to be lots of rooom cus there’s no brains obviously…Your closer is worth more than a prospect that is a year or two away !!!
Those long back to back home runs he gave to the Tigers in in late August were what put me over the edge on Santos. He just served those balls up. He’s hard to trust and far from lights out, especially when his slider isn’t working.
Dude gave up a .181/.282/.314 line to go along with 13k/9… seems like there is a lot to like there even if memory focuses on a couple isolated bad outings.
Oh no, he’ll be great for the majority of the season, but he just really fell apart at the end of the year/ 9.35 ERA in Sept/Oct. Maybe he’ll get better but he’s not exactly a kid, he’s 28, what you see is probably what you get. I think he’ll do fine, but I wouldn’t put him in the elite just yet.
Man, I see this as a definite win for the White Sox. Ya Santos is a good, cheap reliever, but the Blue Jays just gave up a close-to-ready MLB starter with a #4 floor and a #2 upside, and if everything clicks, Molina could do even better than that.
That’s a steep price for a reliever, considering how replaceable relievers seem to be and how much less valuable they are than starting pitchers and starting positional players inherently.
No pitcher who has limited exposure in AA has a FLOOR of a #4
I mean in that case, no player has a floor. Anyone can suffer a career ending injury.
Pundits all the time talk about guys coming out of college with the floors of a back-end rotation starter.
The only thing that keeps Molina from being a solid major league starting pitcher, other than, an injury, is a move to the bullpen, which admittedly is a concern.
there is no floor
If Toronto has an improved bullpen they could make some noise in the AL this year. Especially if they get the extra wild-card added. I think it makes sense for them.
True, but why not just sign a closer. People were freaking out about them possibly signing Heath Bell, but I’d argue the surplus value that they probably just lost in Nestor Molina would have more than offset the difference in cost between Bell and Santos.
Now if the Blue Jays scouting department just likes Santos alot, and thinks he’s a better pitcher than what was available on the free agent market, then I can buy that. Or if they needed to save money to sign Prince Fielder, I can buy that.
I also agree that they Blue Jays have tons of pitchers that could be a #4 – #2 pitcher, but attrition rate is insane with pitchers and if they are gonna move him, I’d rather see them move him as part of a package for an elite starter. I’m not sure if Clayton Kershaw is untouchable, but if he’s not, and the Blue Jays could sign Fielder, why not use that pitching depth to make a blockbuster move and grab Kershaw. If Kershaw is unrealistic, find someone else that is more realistic.
ya, but the Jays have way more arms of that range then rotation slots available.
Though it sucks to see a prospect like Molina go, these are the types of moves the Jays are going to have to make to accelerate themselves into contention. Was secretly hoping they’d go after Phillippe Aumont and give him the job but oh well.
Blue Jays fans- Any chance this Molina guy can be a MLB starter? I keep hearing that he was being groomed as a closer.
He has the potential to be a starter in the majors. He had a great season in 2011. I’m sad to see him go, but I think Santos is a great pick up with a team friendly contract. Win-win trade
Thanks for the response. I definitely didn’t understand the move at first considering how effective Santos is and under team control for 6 years. I still think its a bit risky to trade an MLB proven player for a single prospect who may not work out. As long as he has great potential I guess I can live with it.
Molina hasn’t exactly been “groomed” a closer in the Jays system but many scouts believe he has the perfect make-up for late innings. He has terrific out-pitches, mind-boggling BB/K ratios, and responds well to pressure situations. Right now he has a higher ceiling than the older Santos, but as a pitcher in AA… we won’t be able to assess this trade properly until 2013+. If the Chi-Sox are indeed re-building, Molina is a solid piece to have.
He wasn’t being groomed as a closer. The management has been asked countless times if there are guys in the system that can become a closer and they’ve responded with Molina being a guy who could become one but they weren’t grooming him to become one.
He did great as a starter, has a low 90’s fastball and a “devastating” splitter. He mixes it with a curveball/slider too. Great command and he is missing bats.
He has some delivery concerns which is why a lot of scouts think he is a future reliever. If he does become a reliever, I think he’ll be excellent. I do think he could be a #3 starter though as he is athletic enough to perhaps make up for those delivery concerns. He is also small so there could be some durability concerns. This season was also his 1st season starting.
Only has 2 pitches. 2 very good ones, but still only 2. More of a back end of the bullpen type of guy. Very similar to Santos
Always interesting to me that so many fans complain about losing talent in a trade. Like Napoli. No one was more surprised than the Rangers that Napoli produced. Will he continue to produce at those levels? Mmmm. Fact is, it is a rare transaction in which a club gains talent at no expense. It seems to me the criterion should be, Is the player we gain fair compensation–a net improvement for the roster–compared to the player lose? It’s a fact of life, guys. Most clubs have young talent it does not want to part with. But it is just as much a fact of life that a club is not going to part with a player another team covets unless it gets something of fair value in return. Do the Jays seem better off with Santos as opposed to Nestor Molina at this point in the club’s development? The answer would seem to be, Yes. Is that a guarantee? No. That is why so many GMs go bald.
AA better not go bald soon. That styled greek do’ of his is awesome.
Napoli hit .236 with 26 HR and 68 RBI in 510 AB’s in 2010 at the age of 28. Playing C/1B/DH
Encarnacion hit .244 with 21 HR and 51 RBI in 367 AB’s in 2010 at the age of 27. Playing 3B only. He had spent Winter ball playing 1B so AA knew he would be good to play 1B and 3B and anyone can DH, not really hard to play that position 😉
Jays had Lind at 1B, Arencibia and Molina at C and no one at 3B. Keeping Napoli means we have 3 C’s, 2 1B and 0 3B and we have a career .251 hitter. Keeping Encarnacion means we have 2 1B, 2 C, and 1 3B and we have a career .258 hitter. Not bad having all the holes filled and having a guy who is younger and a better hitter to that point in his career.
Napoli had a great year, no question. But at the time of the trade, a team needing a late inning guy that has 3 C’s is likely going to move one of those C’s. This was basically a 3 team trade, it just took a day for the Rangers to get Napoli because I guarantee the Angels wouldn’t have moved Napoli knowing a division rival would get him.
This is about santos , let the napoli thing go , it was a loss. No one cares anymore , and im a huge AA/Jays fan , you cant defend every trade lol dont take this thread in another direction.
Wow, a voice of reason and sanity. No one is perfect (AA on the Napoli deal), but everyone makes mistakes.
The voice of reason and sanity is the guy above him.
bingo
i don’t buy that ‘Angels didn’t want to trade Napoli in their division’ garbage. If they didn’ think he was a good player/catcher, why would they care?! Stupidest argument I’ve ever heard yet I see it being made on here all the time.
i just had to get that off my chest. Let’s talk about Santos now.
“this is the start of a rebulding” williams says
red sox: leave bailey alone. go get thornton
Thornton would be deadly in the Sox pen , and clearly Williams is looking for a high upside 1 for 1 swap for his good BP guys, and thornton would probably cost slightly less then what santos cost considering santos’s ridiculously friendly contract.
At the same time, he’s only 22. MANY pitchers that start in the minors at 17 or 18 take this long to get to AA. This is a good talent for talent trade.
Even If Jays lost Molina, Jays has a lot of good pitching prospect like Hutchison, MaGuire, and so on. Dont worry about losing Molina despite lost of great prospect.
No way I am convinced this is a good trade for the Sox unless Molina comes out roaring in Spring training and wins a ML starters job….. think there are other things about to happen with the White Sox in the next couple days as there have to be other deals being worked on concerning Quentin and either Danks or Floyd…..only way this trade makes the littlest bit of sense
Exactly, easy to move around bullpen arms. This works for the Jays now by having a closer at 27 locked up at 2.75 mil/yr for the next 3 years and he has 3 club options that could keep him controlled until 2017. The White Sox get a 22 year old they can either bring up now or groom for a few more years however they want.
Santos had 92 SO’s in 63 innings! Thats at the MAJOR LEAGUE level…not in AA
On Nester Molina…AA manager Sal Fasano is a huge fan of Nester, Sal has commented on Nester being a quality person that responds well to pressure. He wasn’t being groomed as a closer. However, there was talk this off season that Nestor was an option to close at least in AAA, and possibly in the majors sometime in 2012.
I loved Molina in the Jays system, but I’ve never seen him pitch so I have to go with the scouts opinion and say he might have to become a reliever. This is a win/win trade though. The Sox start their rebuild, with a guy who might become Sergio Santos in a few years, and AA wants to win now.
So all I have to say to Blue Jays fans is, whos excited to see whats next?
Yes, but why trade Sergio Santos…for future Sergio Santos??
Because maybe when he becomes Sergio Santos 2.0 (or better) the South Siders will have the pieces to surround him and make a title run.
How do you know he is going to be Sergio Santos?
He may want to win now, but is that defined as winning third place?
haha, so funny
Yes that is exactly what I meant, winning third place, because that is what a GM wants to do
Now lets stop being idiots, obviously he wants to make the playoffs, and whether its this year or next, he will sign or trade for a difference maker or two
Really not liking this deal…Santos still has control issues, and isn’t 100% proven, not to mention Relievers aren’t that hard to come by (they usually develop out of nowhere…hmm kind like Santos?). I was really excited about Molina and the type of numbers he put up last year, if he ends being a starter for the White Sox then i’d definatily say they won this deal.
Don’t forget that Molina came out of nowhere too, he wasn’t even in the Jays top 30 last year. The Blue Jays have a surplus of pitching prospects, and no relievers, Santos has a wicked slider is I think is needed for a successful closer, and as a Jays fan I’m happy with this deal. I would have rather not given up Molina, but it had to be done
Molina is better and younger than Zach Stewart. They both have 3 seasons of optional assignments. So, they can be assigned to minors when hitting rough spots instead of simply holding your nose to their bad outings.
Santos did not have control problems…24 UBB’s in 63 Innings.
His BB/9 was at 4.12, so yes he did have control issues.
AA Continues to deal SP prospects for what he wants. SP prospects are no longer becoming a position of strength for the jays.
That being said Santos is a quality pitcher with Closer stuff. I don’t think he’s the ideal 9th inning guy in TO, but definetly a good are in the pen.
I don’t understand the crying over Molina. He had one good year, and may end up being a quality starter, but he has a long way to go. He was overhyped IMO, so AA is selling high, so to speak.
Syndergaard, Mcguire, Hutchinson, Sanchez, Nicolino, Norris and Cardona would like to have a word with you
None of which have true #1 ability…we’ll be lucky if 2 of them turn into solid #2-3’s, very lucky. Toronto has pitching depth, but no stud..Molina COULD have turned into that stud. I don’t like the deal, as Santos is being heavily overrated around here…relievers, especially non established relievers are nearly impossible to predict. I’d much rather have the good starting pitching prospect over almost any closer that hasn’t been closing and being successful for at least a few years.
Alright, I’m just gonna assume your not a scout. And scouts say that Molina is going to become a reliever.
Do you know how little prospects in the MLB are potential #1s? I could count them on one hand.
Molina is less established than Santos. We need a bullpen, prospects are nice and all, but as a professional organization, they want to win in the Majors, not in the minors.
And if 2 of our prospects become #2s, I’m pretty sure I would be very happy.
Building the bullpen for the long term never works out. You are better to stock your system with young pitchers (Molina perhaps?) and get guys on 1 year deals (which I assure you a heckova lot of solid relievers will only get 1 year deals this season).
That is the dumbest thing I have ever seen. Because that worked for the Jays last year right?
Actually it did work for the Jays. Because the bad bullpen of last year will walk away. Imagine if Camp, Rauch, Francisco, had long term deals going into last season.
When you build a bullpen “for the long haul” you get a lot of wasted money because of injusries and inconsistency.
It’s just not a reliable position long term. Better to play it year by year.
“None of which have true #1 ability”
lol
Not to mention the depth at the majors including pseudo-prospect Alvarez.
Any of those pitchers will be lucky to thow a single big league pitch before 2013.
They are prospects. You posted about prospects. We have depth in pitching prospects.
And then you decided to say Molina is not very good. So which prospect are you mad about losing. Would it be Mills?
I’m certainly not mad. It just concerns me that this is being used as a “well” to aid the rest of the club. The Tampa Bay Rays showed everybody that it pays to hang on to your pitching prospects.
And I say none will pitch until 2013 because the jays need starting pitching in 2012. And When you look at Molina, Stewart, Rzep, you’re looking at guys with ligit shots at being good starters next year.
Stewart and Rzep who according to their pitching coaches are going to be in the bullpen next year, are going to be good starters? Molina who’s pitched a few times in AA is set to be a starter? Jays aren’t winning the AL East with a bunch of #4 and #5 pitchers, sorry. The Rays hold onto Matt Moore,
Jeremy Hellickson and David Price because they are studs. None of the players you mentioned are close to their level. Hutchison, Syndergaard and Sanchez might be down the line.
Stewart got 8 starts for the Sox last year, including a one hit shutout against the Twins. He has starter stuff.
And off course we know Rzep can start.
What those teams are doing with them is not relevant (although I bet both get big league starts next year). Whats important are that these guys look like they can be solid starters, and both have 5+ years of control left.
Price, and Hellickson are studs now, but once upon a time they were prospects getting their feet wet. The Rays didn’t trade them then. Don’t be surprised if you are one day talking about how Rzep or Steward have become very solid starting pitchers for their teams.
P.S. the jays aren’t making the playoffs in 2012. Thankfully our GM realizes this and
trades to build a sustained winner.
There’s going to be a second wild card, and the Red Sox are reeling big time. You don’t think AA wants to make the playoffs in 2012? Or thinks his chances are good?
SP No longer becoming a position of strength? They only traded Mills and Molina with Molina being the only one mentioning here as Mills is a non-prospect.
Mills, Molina, Steward, Rzep, Collins, etc…All gone.
Dealing from the bottom of the pile.
Rzep, Collins? You obviously have no knowledge on the concept of prospects.
Stewart and Rzep gave us a younger Rasmus.
Collins gave us Escobar.
I’m ok with that, and I’m ok with the Santos deal.
The Jays have 5 pitching prospects better than anyone you listed
Stewart and Rzep will be pitching next season. Both may very well end up mid rotation starters (likely even better for Rzep), I dont think you can really even make those kinds of projections on the guys the jays have left (with the exception of Alvarez). I’m not saying any of the deals were individually bad (although I never liked the Rasmus deal), but the fact that this is an area that AA keeps using.My concern is that there was really only one consistent starter last season. Outside Romero the rotation has a lot of questions. It looks a lot nicer if you have Molina, Rzep, and Stewart in the mix.
Yeah I’d rather have a potential 5 WAR CF than a bunch of relievers/#4 starters every day of the week and twice on Sunday. You really need to educate yourself
on the Jays farm system if you think the players you mentioned are the apex of ANYTHING.
The jays draft heavy on pitchers, I get that. But with all of these trades I don’t think one can look at the pitchers left and say they have the one best farm systems for pitchers in the game (or even close).
To give you an idea, John Mayo’s top 50 prospect list contains one blue Jay (D’Arnaud). No Jays pitchers like Syndergaard, Mcguire, Hutchinson, Sanchez, Nicolino, Norris even make the list
Stewart and Rzep will be pitching next season. Both may very well end up mid rotation starters (likely even better for Rzep), I dont think you can really even make those kinds of projections on the guys the jays have left (with the exception of Alvarez). I’m not saying any of the deals were individually bad (although I never liked the Rasmus deal), but the fact that this is an area that AA keeps using.My concern is that there was really only one consistent starter last season. Outside Romero the rotation has a lot of questions. It looks a lot nicer if you have Molina, Rzep, and Stewart in the mix.
Are you kidding me?
Its curious to me that many fans would put more stock in numbers in the minors to numbers in the majors. To say you dont like the move as a Jays fan because Santos is unproven?? So what, Molina is proven?
Neither are “proven”, Molina has way more upside though, as is the case with nearly ever starter when compared to a closer or reliever. We don’t even really know what Santos is, yet people are on here proclaiming him a steal and our next closer. He has nice stuff, but walking over 4 batters per 9 innings on average is a recipe for disaster when you’re closing (Kevin Gregg, anybody?). I’d much rather let that unproven starter work himself to the majors and see what he can do.
C,mon man…You just have to watch him pitch to know he’s not Kevin Gregg. As far as those numbers your quoting…its not reliable when your talking about a guy that pitched 63 innings…one bad month could obscure your perception of a guy…which is what your doing.
There’s no skewing, hence why I used BB/9. He doesn’t have good control, not sure why you think he does?
I agree that his BB/9 is a bit high but you can’t forget about his K/9. When you have K/9 in the 13’s, you could afford to have a higher BB rate without hurting yourself.
I personally look at player’s k/BB as that’s more telling of how dominant a pitcher is. His K/BB is 3.17 which is pretty darn good. He could give up one walk but then K the next three guys and fans could care less about that one walk.
Nobody is claiming this as a steal, this a pretty even trade on paper. Molina has nice promise but at some point prospects become currency, with santos’ contract this is pretty good trade for both sides considering the direction theyre going in.
Except for the fact that he doesnt give up hots and strikes out 13.1/9 innings. He can walk the bases loaded and still no one can get contact on him. That said, I don’t like losing Molina, but the deeper I look into it, there is something to like about Santos.
Santos has a better WHIP, H/9, K/9, and K/BB, but, yeah. He’s a good comp to Kevin Gregg. LOL.
I’ll like the deal if AA doesn’t stay in rebuild mode. If he goes and signs Fielder, trades for another SP and Murphy then I’ll really like it. However, if he’s not aggressive then I would’ve like to have seen Molina for another yr.
Look at the numbers subjectively okbluejay…He had 7 Unintentional walks in the last 3 months of the season.
And? Small sample sizes do nothing for me…he’s been over 4 walks per nine in his first two full seasons. He’s never going to have great control.
my point is that one bad month could change those stats your using.
Did you know Mariano Rivera had a 4bb/9 in his first season? Hoffman had a 4bb/9 in his first season. Santos just become a reliever and will learn command.
Yeah, Santos is going to turn into Mariano Rivera LOL. Gotta love some fans.
if you had any intelligence you would have been able to understand what I was talking about. Ill dumb it up for you.
I was talking about how closers have control problems early in their careers and it is not a major set back. Santos’ walk rate has decreased in each of the three years that he has been a pitcher. I’m not saying he is going to become Rivera or Hoffman or even close. I’m saying a high walk rate for a young closer isn’t a big problem.
Last season he had a lower walk rate than Jose Valverde also.
I honestly don’t believe that Molina has a higher chance of turning into a stud over the likes of Syndergaard, Hutchison, Norris and Sanchez. And don’t tell me you don’t think Syndergaard or Sanchez don’t have #1 abilit
Toronto doesn’t have a pitcher in their minor league system that projects to a #1 (not that many teams do). When that’s the case, i’d be more willing to stock pile my young arms rather than deal one that’s coming off a huge season for a reliever that has 115IP in the majors.
ur obviously wrong… Syndergaard, Sanchez and Norris all have #1 abilities.. they are far away but to say the Jays lack guys that project to be #1s is wrong
Oh, so you mean trading at their highest value? What is Molina pitches like he did 2 years ago next season and his value plummets? Molina has had 0 IP in the majors, and just because Toronto doesn’t have a #1 doesn’t make them a bad pitching system, we traded away ONE of the many prospects.
In your logic the only 2 good systems are Rays and Nationals.
At one point you are going to have too many arms in the system and no where to put them. That’s why you deal from a position of strength to strengthen positions of weakness. Molina was good last year, sure, but we have better arms in the minors and so we could afford to trade him.
If you don’t think this trade was fair, that’s fine by me.
When Nestor Molina is not in your TOP 30 then you know how good your farm system is.
He will likely be a stud pitcher, if he can break it as a started White Sox are in for something special.I think He can easily imitate Santos’ numbers in MLB.
Jose has spoken.
He wasn’t in the top 30 before the season (2011). Obviously he would be now.
At first home game of 2012, Santos quoted asking other relievers “So where’s the man in white?”
Casey Janssen: “Two rows back to your right.”
To me “established closer” means a guy thats about to have his arm explode. Santos is a arm with little mileage and more importantly, he has a great slider and fastball.
Santos gave up 4 walks per nine innings yes, but he gave up very few hits too, tells me its just the odd batter laying off the hard slider, not control problems.
People truly don’t know what a #1 pitcher is…Toronto DOES NOT have any pitchers in the minors that project to a #1. Sorry Blue Jay fans. None of the guys mentioned are even in the top 50 prospect list, so I doubt they’re projected as #1’s. Stephen Strasburg, that’s a number one, David Price, that’s a number one…jesus.
Jesus is not in the Blue Jays farm system.
And even if he was he’d project as a #3 at best…
No, he is in Dallas making trades.
How do you know that none are in the top 50 by the way? Which top 50 are you referring too? And try and name more #1 prospects? Because other than Matt Moore, there isn’t any. 28 systems don’t have one, because they are almost impossible to find. Thats why the Jays build on depth
True. Last year Drabek was an ‘A’ on Sickels’ list, and fans would have been horrified to see him traded. Now, not so much.
It’s important to bear in mind that Molina was just one of many pitching prospects with high potential that the Jays have. Getting a sure thing like Santos for up to six years is good business. Deal from depth, create certainties.
After coming back from lunch and digesting this news i like the trade a bit more.
When you look at the recent trades and see whats been given up, i think the jays got off cheap here. Mike Adams cost 2 top 10 prospects from a rich Texas Rangers farm system. Granted he is better but he only had 1.5 year of control left.
Then you factor in the cost of some of signing these free agents, all in all as long as Molina doesnt become a stud ace trading a projected #3 starter for a cost controlled closer at a time when the jays are looking to compete is a solid move.
And its conceivable that if the jays down the road develop a closer that Santos could be traded for an equal return of Molina.
again i’ll say it…Relievers are impossible to predict, one season they’re great, the next they can’t find a job. It’s a crapshoot really…Santos could be good, or he could completely bust. He’ll probably just be ok for the Jays, nothing special, but no bad…still would rather a SP prospect that just put up a monster season and could potentially crack the Jays rotation with a year or two.
Molina is a RP prospect, every scout says so
not every scout, the opinion is pretty split on him, I’d say its about 50/50 if he’ll make it as a Starter or Reliever. One thing they agree on is that he has great control.
He has a great control on two pitches, I was looking forward for him in the Jays pen, but I would rather have Santos
Santos will only be 29 this July, does not have a lot of work on his arm because he switched to pitching so late and did so as a reliever, is on a very good contract (three reasonably priced years and three not ridiculously priced team options through 2017) and is already an excellent reliever. He looks to be every bit the bullpen ace that the team wanted to add and it comes at a lower cost than someone like the Athletics’ Andrew Bailey might have while also providing more cost certainty going forward.
If the Jays’ scouting department thinks that Molina projects as a very good reliever rather than as a starting pitcher then this trade makes a whole lot of sense to me. They’re giving up a guy who they hope will be Sergio Santos in exchange for the genuine article. They get the same number of years of control over the reliever as they would have got with Molina (albeit at a higher cost than Molina would have been in his pre-arbitration/arbitration years). They also get him right now instead of needing to wait on Molina.
If the Jays’ brass thinks that Molina has the potential to be an impact starter then they are giving up some potential for long term reward in exchange for more certainty. The deal is still understandable, particularly if the Jays are going to target contention over the next couple of seasons, but obviously the risk is that Molina becomes a frontline starter. If that happens then the trade can still work out for the Jays provided Santos performs and the team wins, partially due to his contributions, in the near future.
This looks to me like one of the following is the case:
1) The White Sox think that Molina has a future as at least a good starting pitcher while the Jays are pretty convinced that he’ll wind up in the bullpen. They prefer to get the upside on him now in the form of Santos even if it means spending a bit more money on that piece.
2) The Jays are convinced that they can win soon and think that Santos can be one of the last few ingredients that they need. They like Molina, possibly even as a starter, but would rather have Santos now, especially given that they have a lot of depth in terms of minor league arms.
Well said!
God I love jays fans… given the chance, probably would all blow AA
Yes that is what we all want to do, now get your weird thoughts out of the Jays forum
Although I would state it a bit more differently I agree with your statement which implies Blue Jays are enamored with AA. They have a reason to truly “love” this guy since he does seem to have a firm plan in place. I guess we’ll see in a couple of years if this guy is truly the Jays messiah.
I agree that he has really made a name for himself by acquiring a lot of young talent with major upside. A lot of deals no one saw coming. But as you imply, his real worth will be seen in the next few years and how the Jays are able to compete in what is typically the toughest division in baseball
White Sox fan here. Hard to know how I feel about this trade. Obviously my homer glasses hate it as I was alwyas comfortable with Santos making his entrance in the 9th. The one thing that I noticed about Santos and all Sox fans would agree with me is that when his slider is on, forget about it game over. When his slider is not working or really there for him everybody hold on it is going to be a 30 – 45 pitch inning.
I really liked him he always carries himself well and has a good mound presence, pretty good clubhouse guy.
I hope Molina is good cause if we are sending a quality of a player like Santos with that amazing contract we better be getting something back. OK now Toronto go kick the crud out of the Yankees and Red Sox!!!!!!
Wanted to add his slider is usually there for him and devastating at that, creates some pretty foolish looking approaches by most hitters.
Yep, we’ve seen him first hand. That slider is just wicked. I think it was ranked the best slider in baseball last year by fangraphs (I think).
This just made me like the trade even more. I really hope it works out for both clubs.
I guess it’s safe to say that Kenny Williams’ case of syphilis is more advanced than we thought. It’s clearly effecting his brain.
6 years/30M is what Santos will cost the Jays. At the going rate of 8-10m/y for a closer, its basically a 18,000,000 to 30,000,000 savings for the Jays, provided Santos can close for those 6 years (no sure thing).
Is Molina a fantastic prospect? Yes.
Was he worth selling for around $24 million? In a heartbeat.
If the Jays look at this deal as money saved towards investing in somebody like Fielder or Darvish, then things are looking up.
That’s a fine, interesting analysis.
In Toronto’s system, Nestor Molina can barely hit 90 mph. But according to Kenny Williams, he now throws 96? LOL.
He could probably hit 96 as a reliever, which is what I think KW was on about.
Santos is not guarenteed to be a good closer. His BB rate is high because he doesn’t have good control of his slider. Most of his strikeouts came from guys swinging at pitches out of the strike zone. He’s not as bad as Marmol but I would call him Marmol “light” at this point. I’m not saying he can’t be fixed but hopefully Toronto has a good pitching coach.
The Sox are rebuilding while trying to remain competitive in a still very winnable AL Central. We just got a fantastic prospect in Nestor Molina, probably just as dominant as Sergio, only 6 years younger. Very high ceiling, indeed. Santos is a great pitcher when his slider is working for him, but when it’s not, he only has a decent fastball to fall back on which makes him extremely vulnerable. He blew a number of saves when his slider went missing. I’m not sold on Addison Reed just yet, Molina might steal that job just like Santos did from Thornton in 2011. This is just the beginning of a series of impending trades for the Sox, stay tuned…
I dont really get this trade from KW’s side. He has a very good closer on the cusp of being elite. who was cheap considering and under team control for the next 6 years I believe. And he goes out and gets a guy who admittedly had a very good year but was not a top prospect before. Yes he proflies as a potential top of the rotation beast but thats all potential. If this trade and the potential soon to be trade of thornton to the braves says anything this is full rebuild mode for the whitesox. I know thornton has been rumored to be moved for a while but moving santos shows that no one is safe. I would say for sure now that Danks and Floyd are gone, and potentially even Alexi could be moved(should get a great hual considering he is under cheap team control) Also wouldnt be surprised to see AJ and Konerko possibly moved.
Alexi is the type of player you build around.
It is amazing that more than 250 comments have already been posted for a closer who was unknow to many untill yesterday. Even Pujols trade rumor did not get that many fan reactions. This is because the trade involved with Jays. This is simply explains that Jays has huge potential to be a major force in MLB and not a small market team.
What do you mean a closer not known to many before yesterday? If you followed that AL at all, then you probably knew who sergio santos was. Jays fans in particular had reason to know who he was: a) they play CWS often; b) he was lights out against them on an occasion; c) he was formerly in their system; and d) it was cool story about a position player converting to flame-throwing reliever.
Funny thing about D) is Molina is the same story.
just because there aren’t many fans in the seats doesn’t mean the fan base isn’t there.
The odd thing is that I don’t think I’ve come across a fanbase which is harder on its own (‘the pizza crowd’), yet the MLBTR comment section and Jays blogs would suggest that the fans seem to be as well-informed as most other bases.
Sickels overrated Molina greatly. Everyone else doesn’t have him in their top 15-20. Back end rotation guy or reliever
Funny thing about Molina is that only we Jays fans are that high on him, Keith Law (ESPN) and Kevin Goldstein (Baseball Prospectus) both agree that his stuff falls below his stats and they both see him as a number 4 guy maybe a number 3 at best.
Alright, no.
He was in the top 10, probably 8-10, KLaw says he is the 6th best Jays pitching prospect
are you serious, guy? If he’s not in your top 10, or at least your top 15, you’re seriously underrating him.
Santos has great stuff but he needs to work on his command
People forget that the Blue Jays were the first team to draw 4 million people in a single season. They accomplished this 3 years in a row and as of now only 3 other teams have been able to draw 4 million. During the Vinsanity years of hope regarding the Toronto Raptors, same thing the y set league attendence records. If Toronto would put up a great product on the field, court or ice, the fan base is definitely there. Also people (probably because it’s Canada) don’t realize that Toronto is the 4th biggest city in the USA/CAN after NYC, LA, Chi.
This was intended to be a reply to someones earlier post. Anyways, good trade by AA and the Jays a possible solution to the closer situation and a young arm under the control through 2017 and should only improve.
Hopefully Canadians will finally forgive the players about that strike, thats the main reason people haven’t gone, that plus the fact we haven’t had a team to contend untill now
AA is now 0/2 this offseason..
I now see a dent in the armour. So far not impressed
0/2? If one is the Mills trade then: Jays Clearly didn’t think
Mills had the stuff for the Majors, and hopefully Mathis can help
Arencibia improve his defense, so that might not be a win for either
side but its also not a loss for us.
And this one, I know Molina was showing amazing stuff but he also hasn’t shown anythng in the Big Leagues When he does then I’ll agree for this one.
We really needed a Closer, this guy wouldn’t be my first option but hey better than nothing. Frank was most likely going to reject arbitration anyways.
we gave up a potential mid rotation pitcher for a guy who pitches 60 innings, when there are plenty of closers on the fa market already.. molina could have been packaged to bring in a starter, you know, someone who is going to make a difference..
as for the mathis trade, I dont care if mills was nothing, which i agree, you dont give up anything for mathis. and if you think mathis deserves to get 120 AB’s or is going to help JPA improve on defense, even though he himself is terrible defensively..
then you are sorely sorely mistaken
What makes you think Molina was going to become a starter? The scouts saying he is a reliever? Or his two pitches? There was a small chance he was going to a starter. I was a big fan of Molina, but I have never seen him play, and I trust the scouts more. We needed a closer, I don’t care that he will only pitch 60 innings, we needed a closer. I would rather lose Molina than spend 20 million more on a closer, we can use that money Darvish, because I agree, pitching is our biggest need.
The jays still have a boatload of prospects in their system that other teams will want. They can still trade for a pitcher.
This trade was a present win for the Jays, could be a future win for the Sox.
I love this response.. Scouts everywhere scream he’s going to be a good starter, farrell and fasano say hey he could be a reliever and suddenly thats his ceiling..
newsflash, the jays arent’ signing anyone big, thats why I dont like this deal. They are going cheap.
According to who? Just because they go after a closer with an awesome contract does not mean they don’t want to spend.
So if the Yankees or Red Sox traded for Santos they wouldn’t want to spend money either?Keith Law projects Molina as a number 4
Kevin Goldstein projects Molina as a reliever
John Farrell and Sal Fasano probably know Molina more than any scout, so yea, I would think they’re credible in anything to do with Molina.
Everywhere else I read said he was good enough behind the plate, so I was just going by that.
Also Molina as a starter is the high end of his potential with him being a closer most likely
Can this possibly signal the potential signing of Yu Darvish? I don’t see AA trading away anymore high ceiling pitchers that may be required to get a trade done to acquire a gio gonzalez/jair jurrjens type of player and d’Arnaud, hech are presumably untouchable.
do you think its funny how much molina love we got to listen to in the last little while from farrell/fasano, and then he gets dealt?
it does seem a strange coincidence.
and re: mathis. well what can you say? he pretty much sucks at hitting and is average-ish on defense at least by every measurable stat (except the recent studies on framing). that said i’m hardly going to get bent out of shape over a nothing for nothing deal.
Theres plenty of better pitching in the minors still and we get a controllable closer for the next 4 years.
Mathis is our catching version of MacDonald. Thats it nothing more.
you can’t know he would be a mid rotation guy in the AL east, i.e. with his low 90’s FB to backup his off speed pitches.
but if by a 5th of the rotation type of guy you mean then we don’t need any more of those.
many considered him to be our best pitching prospect
are u serious?? really – mills who would never break our rotation nor our pen for a solid d catcher to keep the seat warm for d’arnaud/jp platoon – look at the winning percentage of the angels when mathis started and when he didnt you will see first hand the impact he made.
second of all – molina for santos is a solid trade for both teams – prob is that he is surrounded by too much quality (mcguire beck hutchison to name a few) he was expendable.
maybe your comment was sarcasm?
yes the winning percentage of the angels has everything to do with mathis
and nothing to do with their actual good players.
eh. I’d give this deal to him, though I don’t love it. I don’t love Molina, he’s the 6th best SP prospect in the system. Could be a great starter, but most likely a number 3~4 type. Santos is a pretty good pitcher with a good contract status.
I don’t think the Jays win the deal by any means, though.
you’re last sentence is why I reallly dont like it..
at the end of the day its a relief pitching…. I thought he was better than this.. Its by no means a loss either..
I just think.. k maybe all this, we’re going to spend this, spend that, is alll a pipedream.. there are more closers than teams who need them on the market. then they could have kept molina..
So I’m confused.. the money saved from not signing a bell to trading for santos is not going to be spent elsewhere. theres spending restrictions on amteurs now, so whats the point?
I’m confused as to what your beef is here…
You would have preferred the Jays had overpayed for an older FA closer, rather than deal from depth (farm arms) to acquire a potential stud closer on a good contract?
I’m confused as to what your beef is here…
You would have preferred the Jays had overpayed for an older FA closer, rather than deal from depth (farm arms) to acquire a potential stud closer on a good contract?
really?? why not?
So now we need:
– Starter – Darvish is there but we don’t know how he will translate to in MLB.
– Kyle Lohse is available what do you guys think of him? cost?
– What is Jurrjens on the depth chart?
– Who else should we go after.
———————————–
– 2B – KJ would be good
– Prado if the price is reasonable why not try
kyle Lohse? Jair Jurjjens?
geeze
we already have jesse litsch in the pen/
Both guys are apparently available.
I had only looked at Lohse last year and liked what I saw.
Jurrjens was merely a suggestion because his name has been linked with us so much.
Who do you think we sould go after thats reasonable, I didn’t throw out names like Vogelsong and Hellickson because theres no chance thats happening, how about you give reasons and other options.
i like this deal, seems very fair for both teams.
santos is an already capable and potentially elite late inning reliever with possibly 6 years of control at a bargain price (compared to the insanity going on in the closer market this year).
molina is a good prospect who seems to have a high floor, but then there seems to be a split in opinion about where his ceiling is. the majority seem to think he will be a back ender or reliever, but some see mid-top rotation.
another piece of the puzzle becomes clear for the jays, and yet again AA goes off the map to find the right fit.
Prospects are just that, unproven talent. Getting a proven player will always trump a prospect in my books. Unless your talking about a Bryce Harper type stud.
Yeah man we should just trade all of our prospects for proven players, who the hell cares if those “proven” players are old and aren’t even very good, because well who KNOWS what those prospects will become, right? lol
With prospects it`s a wait and see process, hoping they pan out. You have been waiting since 1994 so I guess whats another 5 to 10 years. If you can get an impact player now you go get him!!
From a Jays perspective, I like the message of the trade, to fill todays needs for a run this year. This is a 180 turn from last winter with Marcum for Laurie, or wait for a future year. It’s quite possible both teams will win the trade. Good deal and good message.
Don’t overread the message. This is very much a trade about subsequent seasons after 2012. They got a strong arm under contract until 2017. This is probably as much or more about 2013 than 2012.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Bad move…very disgusted…
i think its a good move, a prospect is only a prospect until he proves something in the majors, you can only stockpile so many prospects before you decide now is the time to fill the pieces of the puzzle that brings your team to the next step.
the jays have tons of good talent in the system and more picks this year with the type b free agent moving elsewhere, molina was still 2 years away from being brought up , alot can happen in those 2 years. so i think it was a wise more but only time will tell
I’m not going to get into half of thse dumb replies…bottom line for me is, i’d rather a young starting prospect coming off a big year rather than pretty much any reliever, especially ones that used to be infielders and have limited expierence in the role Toronto is going to throw him into. However Jay fans will continue to blow AA at any oppurtunity.
Molina was also an infielder. And doesn’t much experience above A ball
Love it when the facts interfere with a half-witted rant…
Everyone should read fangraphs article on this trade, gives great prespective on how little value closers and relievers actually have….basically to equal Santos value Molina will have to perform like Paul Maholm over 6 years, which might not be too hard for a guy that is much more talented than Maholm.
Farrell and others were saying he was going to be a closer, Scouts have said his HIGH-END potential is as a starter but better chances he becomes a REALLY good reliever