It's not every day that two of baseball's best young stars are swapped for each other, but the Mariners and Yankees pulled off just such a deal today, as Jesus Montero and Hector Noesi went to Seattle in exchange for Michael Pineda and Jose Campos. Here is some of the early reaction to this stunning trade, plus some information on how the deal came together…
- "The risk for both clubs is low. The reward for both clubs is outstanding. This could be a transformational deal that will have fans of both clubs buzzing about for a long time," writes MLB.com's Bernie Pleskoff.
- Replacing pitching via minor leaguers or the free agent market is far easier than attracting top-caliber hitters in Seattle, notes MLB.com's Greg Johns.
- Mike Salk of ESPN 710 Radio in Seattle outlines the reasons why he "loves" the deal for the Mariners. Also from Salk (on Twitter), he hears from "a non-M's baseball guy" who believes Noesi is a better long-term option than Pineda.
- The trade makes the Yankees the favorites in the AL East, writes Scott Miller of CBSSports.com. Miller talks to two scouts who rave about the Yankees' sudden surplus of young pitching that also includes Dellin Betances and Manny Banuelos.
- Dave Cameron of the U.S.S. Mariner blog sees Montero as developing into a Carlos Lee-type of hitter who is productive but not quite a superstar. Cameron thinks the deal will look better for the Mariners if they were to sign a free agent starter like Roy Oswalt or Edwin Jackson, since then the team would have Montero's bat plus a pitcher that could match Pineda's production.
- Yankees GM Brian Cashman feels he took a "huge risk" with the trade, reports The Record's Bob Klapisch (via Twitter). "I gave up a ton (for Pineda)," Cashman said. "To me, Montero is Mike Piazza. He's Miguel Cabrera."
- "Some execs from other AL East teams believe Yankees just made an incredible trade," tweets ESPN's Buster Olney.
- The two teams were "talking for weeks" about the deal, reports Joel Sherman of the New York Post (Twitter link). Each side told the other that they had limited funds to address their needs.
- The Yankees initially tried to acquire Felix Hernandez from the Mariners, reports Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com (via Twitter) and were willing to offer a package that included Montero, Betances, Banuelos and more.
Last note about what the Yanks were going to give up for Felix is interesting.
Yeah. Still, I’m glad King Félix is staying put. : )
I hope the mariners’ sound guy appreciates good humor and plays “Jesus Walks” every time he gets a free pass this year.
“…were willing to offer a package that included Montero, Betances, Banuelos and more.”
Wow, I understand that Felix is very important to that franchise. But they could have had a rotation containing Betances, Banuelos, Pineda, Walker, Paxton and Hultzen for years to come. Couple that with Smoak, Montero, Ackley, Franklin, and Liddi, they’d have a solid young team to build around.
The Yankees wouldn’t do that. Heyman just wants something to write about.
This is probably the best point in the this thread. Its easy to sensationalize about trades that didn’t happen. “I heard they were going to give up…blah blah blah.” A trade that never happened is just useless information when you don’t really no the terms of the non-existent deal.
Or a bullpen of Betances and Banuelos… too risky to give up Felix for.
No, not too risky at all. Montero, Banuelos, Betances, and more is the best they would come by. No other team would offer that deal, and the Yankees wouldn’t either. It’s Jon Heyman.
You are delusional, the Mariners wouldn’t do that deal. They would essentially be dealing Felix for Betances and Banuelos, and the right to keep Pineda. No chance.
How is it just the right to keep Pineda. That literally makes no sense. In addition to the other pieces, you keep Pineda and receive Montero. You aren’t just keeping him. You are receiving a blue chipper, while maintaining a stud sp with two excellent sp prospects.
That still doesn’t change the fact that it’s nowhere near big enough of a pack for Felix.
Seriously? You are a crazy person, Brian.
Scenario A: Mariners lose Felix, receive Montero, Betances, and Banuelos.
Scenario B: Mariners lose Pineda and receive Montero.
How in the world are they not “essentially” receiving Montero in exchange for Hernandez if he’s included in a deal for him wherein they keep Pineda? Complete insanity.
Seattle would also get the 20+ million owed to Felix each of the next three years and then two more years of team control of Pineda after that. They could have taken that money this year and sign Prince Fielder or wait until next year and basically get any player you want. So to be more accurate, a proper comparison would be Felix for Betances and Banuelos and the right to keep Pineda and Prince Fielder.
Seattle would also get the 20+ million owed to Felix each of the next three years and then two more years of team control of Pineda after that. They could have taken that money this year and sign Prince Fielder or wait until next year and basically get any player you want. So to be more accurate, a proper comparison would be Felix for Betances and Banuelos and the right to keep Pineda and Prince Fielder.
You’re so wrong…
I don’t think you understand the concept that Felix is essentially untouchable.
They could and should get more, especially if they concentrated on elite prospects further away from the majors (which they absolutely should do if they decide to trade Felix).
Felix is the only pitcher of his kind in the game.
Those three would be a good start for a package for Felix. It’s whoever else they would include in the deal that would make it work, and quite frankly it’d be stupid for the Yankees to trade for the deal that would land him because it would have to be massive.
Yankees got schooled.
huh?
They clearly overpaid for a pitcher who will, in high probability, get annihilated in the AL East. Flyball pitchers + AL East + Rogers Center, Fenway, Yankee Stadium and Camden = certain doom.
Just look at Brandon Morrow.
good lineups pounded him last year and i don’t think that’s going to change until he becomes more than a two-pitch pitcher. they’re great pitches, but good lineups did and will continue to just sit on his fastball
but we can’t talk about him the way we talk about gio or even latos. he isn’t a finished product by any means, as most prospects of his caliber are doing great if they put up
his 2011 numbers in AAA
the best way to view this trade is prospect-for-prospect. NYY should not be expecting him to be a #2 in 2011, but that is a reachable ceiling over the next 5 years if he can develop his changeup
Name a 2 pitch pitcher (besides Randy Johnson, who was left-hnded) that has been successful as a SP for a whole career. I can’t.
curt schilling maybe, and that’s because the splitter doesn’t tend to have much of a lefty-righty split. the slider has a huge one
Borderline haha. My problem with Teheran and Pineda is they throw 3 pitches, only 2 of which are above league average.
Unless they develop legitimate changeups I’m just not sure I can trust them. You know?
yup. then again, if either of those two had legitimate change-ups, they wouldn’t be prospects – they’d be stars
i do think that’s the best view of this though: prospect-for-prospect rather than prospect-for-#2 pitcher
Absolutely. The Pineda fervor lat year reminded me of Angel Berroa. Huge numbers early, but they turned out to be false promise. I don’t know.
Ps – you’re absolutely right about them being stars with changes. Unfortunately, power pitchers tend to struggle to do that
It’s not unheard of you know? But you’re right they are risking the odds.
Schilling also actually had a whole bevy of pitches, he just didn’t throw most of them very often.
that is exactly how you’d describe ogando’s changeup though
he “has” it in that he can throw it. but he doesn’t throw it often. it’s a show-me pitch, not a weapon
Right, but with Schilling he actually had like 6 pitches and all those ‘other’ pitches that he didn’t throw much actually added up to about 20% of his pitches.
(In his time with the Sox he threw a fastball, change-up, slider, cutter, splitter, and curve)
I’d agree that his success was based on his fastball-splitter combo, but one out of every five pitches he threw was something other than the fastball or splitter.
What about Steve Carlton? He had a killer slider, his biggest out pitch. I am pretty certain he had other pitchers, still his slider was his best to along with a keen fastball. That and the fact he kept himself in shape for a long time. I will go with Carlton to challenge you.
Could Carlton at least throw other pitches? I mean these guys have 2 legitimate pitches. That’s it.
I expect him to mature quicker than Montero. Look at Nova, he went from a prospect in 09 to a playoff starter in 11. Pineda has already proven he can stay in the rotation, he’s going to have a ton more run support now than with the M’s, it’ll help him a lot.
Brandon Morrow wasn’t exactly lighting it up in Seattle either. On the M’s side, they’re also picking up a right handed hitter to play at Safeco. It’s a risk both ways.
I agree, their is no proof to the theory of moving to a new league makes you worse. Check out pitchers like Jackson who bounce around, their pitching performance is random. I would be more concerned with a pitchers durability. It’s hard to name 10 pitchers that have had 5 good years in a row in any division. Remember the Yanks have a potent line up that scores alot more runs than Seattle.
Well exactly, which is why it’s a good deal for both sides. I think both sides are well aware of the risks for both players, but it at least addresses each of their needs if they pan out.
I mean, Jered Weaver has a worse ground ball rate and is an excellent pitcher. I have concerns about Pineda, he might have a Javy Vasquez type implosion in NY, but this isn’t really an overpay. Montero is a great talent, but the fact is he doesn’t really fit in with that roster over the next six years and A-Rod & Tex aren’t going anywhere anytime soon.
3 of the 4 parks weaver plays in are very pitcher friendly
4 of the 5 parks pineda will pitch in are very hitter friendly
Oh I agree, it will be tough, just trying to play devil’s advocate.
Yes, but now he traded places with Montero, so Montero has to play in those parks. It’s a fairly even trade in terms of risk.
true, but it doesn’t really make sense to compare it that way. they didn’t give up montero’s would-be seattle production; they gave up up his would-be NYY production
Yes, and like wise for the M’s. It’s risky for both sides.
They clearly overpaid for a pitcher who will, in high probability, get annihilated in the AL East. Flyball pitchers + AL East + Rogers Center, Fenway, Yankee Stadium and Camden = certain doom.
Just look at Brandon Morrow.
If Montero is “Cabrera or Piazza,” why did you trade him for a flyball pitcher? I understand Pineda is a good pitcher, but I wouldn’t have given up Montero for him.
because he wasn’t going to stick at catcher, and Yanks have other catchers coming up in the system. None as good offensively, obviously.
Also, being a full time DH just won’t work on this team with aging superstars who will need days off or DH days down the stretch every year.
I understand that point. But for Pineda? Very good young pitcher, but they could have gotten more. They could have had Gonzalez or Garza if they wanted.
That’s assuming you think Gonzalez or Garza is better than Pineda. Seems many disagree with that. Point was they’re not going to get a caliber pitcher for nothing, and Montero was a big chip for them since he’s just a full time DH anyhow.
Garza is immensely better than Pineda… whether it’s worth the 3 years of control you’re losing is another story.
You’re not the only one who believes this, but it’s also not the only opinion out there. Pineda isn’t better at this point in time, but he’s still got the potential to become a lot better. They’re taking a risk obviously, but there’s no chance they’d make a deal like this for Garza. He might be a better player at this point in time, but he has nowhere near the value Pineda has.
Totally my point – I have no idea where Pineda will be in 3 years. I’d rather have Pineda than Garza at this point given their status, but to say Pineda is better now… I can’t agree with.
You seriously would want Gio over Pineda?
Pineda is better, younger and cheaper than Garza or Gio.
two out of three anyway
IMO-Pineda is better pick up than both Gio and Garza considering the upside, the minimal $$$ owed and his age.
Pineda also cost the Yanks less, and he will be good for the Yanks because they average 6 runs a game, plus their pen is better.
agreed, he’ll do real well for the Yanks. He was a legit #2 starter in his rookie year. I can’t believe he was traded.
IMO-Pineda is better pick up than both Gio and Garza considering the upside, the minimal $$$ owed and his age.
Pineda might already be better than Gonzalez and he has more years of control. Pineda is much more valuable than Garza, that isn’t even up for debate.
Pineda might already be better than Gonzalez and he has more years of control. Pineda is much more valuable than Garza, that isn’t even up for debate.
No way Beane was giving up Gio to the Yanks w/ out getting one of the B’s AND Montero.
right. if he’s miguel cabrera, the yankees lost this trade by a good margin
but i always like when teams talk up the player even after they trade him; that’s good form. can’t stand when fans immediately switch from “he’s so good” to “he’s so overrated” as soon as a guy is dealt
I don’t know what to think. I like the deal because Pineda is a good pitcher, but I think they could have gotten more for him. Plus I really loved Montero. Oh, well. I guess I have to love Pineda now!
you should. he’s the best pitching prospect they have (even though he’s not technically a prospect anymore)
if it were me, i’d have preferred to keep montero. but you really can’t criticize this deal for the yankees. long-term, it’s likely pretty even. short-term, they are now easy AL favorites
I agree. It’s like they feel like they have to diminish what they gave up to make themselves feel better. Also, I’m so sick and tired of ppl saying the Yanks need to rest their old players at the DH spot. Arod IS a concern because of his health but that would’ve been a good problem to have assuming Montero was the hitter they felt he would become. No way is Jeter worth a day off and Tex is still young enough to stick at 1b and when he needs a rest,….sit him on the bench. Who else are these “old players” people refer to.
No down the line, it would’ve been nice to have Montero’s bat in the #3 or #4 spot during his prime years but I can’t help but imagine how good this can work out if Pineda pitches well.
2012 is one thing, but in 2013 you’re looking at
sabathia
hamels/cain
pineda
hughes/nova
burnett
that’s going to be pretty impressive. banuelos & co will be knocking on the door too. you have to like what cashman has put together in terms of organizational pitching depth. hitters are a lot easier to acquire on the free agent market
when are yanks fans going to realize that both hughes and burnett are at best questionable???……i would take nova over those clowns anyday and the fact you don’t have nova a guranteed 4 in your hypothetical rotation is beyond me
When are people going to realize notsureifsrs is a redsox fan
im just saying in general…..how many times have you seen yanks fans say burnett/hughes are good…..i didn’t imply that he was, im just saying in general….
You worry too much about down the line. “Down the line” if the Yankees need another big bat for the 3 or 4 hole, they’ll find one.
Move over Latos and Gio, this has to be the trade of the off-season!
Losing Montero hurts, but Cash did what was right. Both sides dealt from a position of strength to address an area of need.
Both Gio and Latos were MASSIVE overpays. Yankees played it right and won that deal. Especially if Campos continues to develop and profile as another middle rotation (3-4) starter.
no kidding……the nats took it up the pooper on the gio deal…..that, unfortantely is the market for starting pitching right now….the yanks got off light imo………
Plus Campos is a high-upside guy. Interesting get.
It is interesting to see Latos pull in 4 strong prospects, while Pineda was worth… 1? I understand Montero is highly regarded, but he’s a future DH. It’s just bizarre from the standpoint of the Ms. Plus to throw in another high ceiling pitcher baffles me.
montero is a lot better than any of the prospects traded in either of the other two deals, but latos is quite a bit better than pineda
I understand that, but it’s not like the other deals were pure quantity over quality. Both had a few top 100 guys involved where Montero is top 10-15? Just don’t see it, especially throwing in Campos.
keep in mind that the mariners were selling really high. pineda kinda surprised everyone in 2011 and di d not have a particularly strong second half of the season. he basically has gio/latos potential, with a very good rookie season under his belt
i think NY still made the best trade of the 3, but pineda comes with more question marks than the other two
Fair enough, but it’s tough to say Montero doesn’t still have a ? or two.
I don’t completely disagree, but it’s not like Montero comes question free. He hasn’t even played a season at the major league level yet.
true, but all of the questions about montero have been about his position and defense. there isn’t a scout alive that expects him to end up worse than an above average hitter – and that’s what he was acquired to be
Of course, but just because they expect it, it doesn’t mean it will happen. He still has to play the game and he’s yet to do that. It’s a risky move both ways.
generally when everybody agrees a guy is going to succeed and it’s just a question of how good he’ll be, we don’t call him a risk
equating pineda’s risk with montero’s is a mistake. their ceilings may be similar, but their floors aren’t
No, it would actually be very naive to call him a no risk. Just because it’s a lower risk doesn’t mean he’s no risk. Just becuase it’s not equally risky doesn’t mean it’s not risky for both of them.
you’re nit-picking and kinda straw-manning
“risky” isn’t used to denote “non-zero risk”; it’s used to denote risk of significance
there’s a non-zero risk with every player, including established stars. but it’s not worth bringing up
montero’s risk is very limited, especially compared to pineda’s. that was and still is the point
Then agree to disagree, becauseI hardly see it being limited risk for a right handed batter to play in Safeco, none the less one that hasn’t even suited up for a full season yet. Plus this is getting ridiculous to read, so we can’t keep going back and forth anyhow.
Latos is quite a bit better than Pineda? Not IMO he isn’t. Pineda is two years younger, throws as hard, and is more mature already. IMO he has more upside than Latos. I think SD hosed Cincinnati in that trade, and would rather have traded Pineda to Cincinnati for the four players they traded to SD for Latos. But for whatever reason it didn’t happen.
Nobody got hosed in this one. It was one great young player for another. I get that the M’s had to throw in Campos to get the deal done. Everybody says he is a good one but I have not seen him pitch so what do I know?
I’m sorry from a Seattle standpoint to lose Pineda, but elated to get Montero here. I don’t give a rip if he can catch or not — although Seattle has a great catching coach in Roger Hansen and we will see about that — but the M’s needed a big young bat in the middle of the order and they got one. Supposedly Montero has a bigger upside than Alonso or Grandal, good as they might be.
And for the bozos who think the M’s would ever trade Felix — give it up, already, will you? You’re all dreaming. Felix is in Seattle to stay. The dude has four — count ’em, four — major league out pitches. That kind of pitcher comes along once in a generation, That’s Juan Marichal territory. Does anybody imagine that the M’s don’t know what they have?
Latos is quite a bit better than Pineda? Not IMO he isn’t. Pineda is two years younger, throws as hard, and is more mature already. IMO he has more upside than Latos. I think SD hosed Cincinnati in that trade, and would rather have traded Pineda to Cincinnati for the four players they traded to SD for Latos. But for whatever reason it didn’t happen.
Nobody got hosed in this one. It was one great young player for another. I get that the M’s had to throw in Campos to get the deal done. Everybody says he is a good one but I have not seen him pitch so what do I know?
I’m sorry from a Seattle standpoint to lose Pineda, but elated to get Montero here. I don’t give a rip if he can catch or not — although Seattle has a great catching coach in Roger Hansen and we will see about that — but the M’s needed a big young bat in the middle of the order and they got one. Supposedly Montero has a bigger upside than Alonso or Grandal, good as they might be.
And for the bozos who think the M’s would ever trade Felix — give it up, already, will you? You’re all dreaming. Felix is in Seattle to stay. The dude has four — count ’em, four — major league out pitches. That kind of pitcher comes along once in a generation, That’s Juan Marichal territory. Does anybody imagine that the M’s don’t know what they have?
Latos is quite a bit better than Pineda? You’re just plain flat delusional if you think that. Pineda is two years younger and throws harder. Plus he’s mature. Latos is a head case.
about 7 hours from now you should post yet another reply to that comment. make sure it contains no evidence whatsoever though, so it can match
Agreed, nice points. I think the Yankees did real well. I would not have thought Pineda was available, yet everyone knew Montero was
I’d buy the Montero DH argument more if Yonder Alonso had any defensive value whatsoever. But anyways, why would an NL team trade for a guy without a position? Teams clearly have different evaluations of Montero, and the Mariners have always liked him.
Alonso is actually average defensively at 1B… LF is another story.
It is interesting to see Latos pull in 4 strong prospects, while Pineda was worth… 1? I understand Montero is highly regarded, but he’s a future DH. It’s just bizarre from the standpoint of the Ms. Plus to throw in another high ceiling pitcher baffles me.
it’s gotta be up there. latos is the better pitcher, but he cost a lot more given the years of control here
Latos was terrible for the Padres last year, very inconsitent and very hittable. No where near the previous year, the Padres fleeced the Reds on that trade. anybody that watch Latos last year would agree that something wasn’t right with him…
“Latos was terrible for the Padres last year”
stopped reading
Even if Montero is as good as Buster Posey, which he isn’t. However, lets say he is, how in the world is this going to help with the Mariner Anemic Offense? One player isn’t going to do it.
Ackley and Smoak will get better and Franklin will provide offsense at SS. I think good things are to come for Seattle. Especially when Walker and Hutzen are ready.
A young core of Smoak, Ackley, and Montero (and even Carp) will be great to build around. Sets them up for the future, where they can add FA bats every year if need be, since pitching is coming up through the pipeline for cheap.
As a Ranger fan, didn’t mind giving up Smoak but I didn’t like losing Bevan. Smoak is slow, slow hands and slow feet, he’s a little over-rated. Bottom tier big league firstbaseman. It’s cool he’s a switch hitter. Ackley and Montero are very quality guys tho, Carp was a hitting fool last year too. M’s need to bulk up in the OF and 3B, I’m not a big Gutierez fan either, guess I think they need some work. They are in a heck of a lot better position than the Astros or Mets tho!
Got some decent young arms too, obviously since they can trade away a guy like Pineda
Good trades are when both sides benifit.
No, good trades are when my team completely rips off the other team
they shouldn’t get one good hitter until they have others? that’s quite a riddle to solve
it works in their favor that montero is an opposite-field masher. right-handed hitters generally go to safeco to die, but montero should be fine there. i like this trade for the mariners as much as i do for the yankees; it really is pretty even
That’s assuming that Jack Z actually thinks he’s going to solve their offensive problems. Chances are if you don’t think he will, neither does he. It’s just a chance to improve it. It’s got to start somewhere.
Well when the story first broke, they said “Impact Bat”
Believe me Montero wasn’t the first name that came to mind.
The other problem is the Mariners still have Olivio and his 3+ million dollar salary.
PS Weren’t there some rumblings within the past few weeks, that some Mariner Brass thought Pineda wasn’t that good. The bottom line is the Yankee rotation got better tonight and now the Yankees are done shopping all in the matter of an hour.
Then you need to stop cherry picking what you’re reading and read more carefully. The headline was “young” impact bat, and he clearly fits the mold even if he’s not the first to come to mind. There is no problem with Olivo because Montero isn’t a good catcher. Of course there were rumblings about that because he’s young and isn’t a polished pitcher. Montero isn’t exactly a proven star either.
This silly new term ” Cherry Picking”. I heard that yesterday or the day before, because I used “WHIP” to evaluate a pitcher, who’s name I already forget.
It’s not so silly when you’re actually doing it.
Check his MLBTR archive, its only a couple articles claiming the Mariners were not considering trading him despite interest. One earlier this month, directly preceded by one last July. Your bias is showing.
did you not see montero during his end of the year call up?……lefty, you are po’d that the orioles didn’t get him…….you would be doing cartwheels if the o’s got montero and you would be telling us you are gonna go ahead and put reservations on your playoff tickets….
He brings immediate relief in the department that they lacked severely, and that’s a right handed bat with power.
Ummm Montero projects to be a better hitter than Posey. Is that a real question?
As opposed to what? My “World” Famous Fake Questions?
the mariners are trying to do something about it……now, the rumors of prince going there are over, thank god……..i see that window closing for cartman jr……….
I’m not sold on Pineda (or Teheran for that matter).
That said, interesting trade for both teams. Seems more teams are willing to do prospect for prospect trades these days.
i wish they would happen more often
I agree. I assume it has a lot to do with knowing what you have better than what others have (less risk in keeping your own guys).
That said, I think trades like Cashner/Rizzo and Pineda/Montero can be incredibly useful to competitive teams
it just seems logical. I love the fact that Pineda is a step above being a prospect though.
This trade looks very good if you consider the depth of young mlb pitchers (Pineda, Nova, Hughes possibly Joba) and the depth of mlb ready pitchers (Warren, Phelps, Mitchell) and near mlb ready pitchers (Bans and Bets). Yanks also have some interesting pitching prospects at the A/AA levels too now with Campos, Marshall, Stoneburner, Heredia, Quintana, Nuno and Ramirez.
I drool over a possible 2013 rotation of Sabathia + Pineda + Hughes + Nova + Bans/Bets. That’s a lot of young pitching.
i just wrote almost the exact same thing in a comment to you upthread. except there’s no way the 2013 rotation is without one of hamels and cain
Expect both to stay where they are.
Quitana signed a major league deal with the white sox
So if that package wasnt accepted for Felix, he is basically untouchable?
For now? Betances and Banuelos don’t seem like guys the Mariners would like though so maybe they valued them lower?!?!
They want Banuelos and Betances. Every team does. But they just need more bats, not pitching. If I could start at over half of the positions on a Major League team, there’s a problem.
Banuelos and Betances doesn’t fit the “mold” that the M’s look for is my point. I know exactly what they were looking for.
Note – “exactly”, written above, was in reference to them looking for hitting, not pitching. It was not intended to be taken literally. Thanks guys. Super.
Well, don’t keep it a secret! Tell us what you know, wise Jeff.
Exactly what they are looking for? I don’t think any fan can say that about their favorite team. I didn’t think the Yankees were looking to trade Montero for Pineda. Do you work in the Mariner’s Front Office?
That’s cute. I meant I know that they were looking for hitting as opposed to pitching. Glad everyone took that literally though
That’s cute that you think you could start for the Mariners.
I think it’s more sad that I could. I might only bat .030, but I’d be their clean up guy.
You should probably stop make ridiculous comments, your losing credibility, the M’s offense is so weak tho, so maybe you could tryout I guess
The Mariners are loaded with starting pitching prospects, they would want position players for Felix.
You’re kind of overvaluing these two prospects. Both scream “possible future set up man or closer” to me. Banuelos is much more interesting than Betances, regardless of ceiling though.
You mean a guy who walked almost 5 guys per 9 innings scares you. I’m shocked.
Yet look at the return Gio got…
I thought that was a moronic trade also. Especially considering you could have had EJax who’s basically the same pitcher.
You arent exactly a scout now are you?
Was that never completely apparent?
Not from a realistic standpoint. If they can pretty much pick any 4-5 prospects they want from the Yankees farm system why would they not do it? I mean how much higher can his value get?
You’d have to think so.
I think so, unless Felix Hernandez asks out. I think that he is more likely to be traded after next season.
I wonder if a package highlighted by Gardner and Montero would have sufficed.
Gardner is 28, not that hes old or anything but I would imagine the Mariners want younger players to be the top pieces of a package for Felix. Felix is unbelievably only 25! Its hard to imagine what a package for Felix would be but I would have to think it would be one that consists of multiple top prospects in a teams farm system.
I still feel like the yankees shouldn’t have made the deal, I feel like the chance that Montero reaches his potential is much greater than Pineda reaching his. A two pitch fly ball pitcher doesn’t seem all that appealing in the AL East’s small ballparks.
Yankees got Campos as well, another high ceiling pitcher.
He’s 3 years away though, and guys that far down fizzle out more times than not
That doesn’t mean he lacks value
Pineda has a whole year under his belt; on a terrible team he was really one of only two bright spots on the entire team. The word is Montero is weak on D or he’d a been in the show a year earlier, so it seems like Pineda is much closer to reaching his potential as a legit top of rotation starter since he has already done this (#2 starter as a rook) and Montero has played 18 big league games at DH. Why do you think Montero has a greater chance of reaching his potential?
The yankees haven’t been able to develop many pitchers who are successful starters even after being top prospects. But they’ve shown they’re able to develop bats. Also, montero just flat our rakes, I think if he played everyday last year, he could’ve hit .270/360 with 25 homeruns.
Why does it have to be a “win the deal” scenario, I see this as pretty beneficial to both parties.
It seems like a “win” for both teams.
I do agree it benefits both – but I also think the M’s could have gotten more. However, there may not have been a single better bat available, and they may have preferred quality over quantity, regardless of position played.
Throwing Campos into the pot kind of irked me, but there’s really no reason for anyone to get hung up about this trade. It fits a need for both parties – and both fits come with ridiculous upside. Take care of Michael, Yankees. On another note, in case you’ve already forgotten: Felix is ours and you can’t have him.
Until free agency.
The Mariners are a higher payroll team. They’re perennially very close to or above 100MM.
If Felix is willing to stay in Seattle and it makes sense, I’m sure the M’s can top whatever deal any other team can offer monetarily .
Edit: Damn you, Disqus!
While everyone is sitting here lamenting over the loss of Montero, keep in mind that Mason Williams shot up the list of prospects, he’ll likely be #1 in their whole organization this season. He plays a position of need for the Yankees. Another potential 5 tool player, albeit less power. Really wanted to see Montero, but from the practical business side of it, it just wasn’t going to happen on the Yanks. Some of us always knew this. Romine is far better defensive catcher and he’ll be backing up Martin this season. Sanchez another phenomenal prospect is maybe 2 years away. Good trade for both teams and as I said earlier the best part about getting Campos is to wash away that bad aftertaste of losing Viscaino in the Vasquez deal 2 years ago. I see it as an equal replacement.
a good way to soothe whatever pains people have over losing montero is to remember that he was nearly traded for half a season of cliff lee. instead they now get 5 years of pineda
Exactly. 3 months vs 5 years plus with other teams being starved for young pitching, it makes players like Betances and even Banuelos expendable for other impact players. I’m very satisfied. I would not have felt the same way if this was a deal with Garza or Gonzalez. Both good pitchers in their own right, but when you consider the asking price, anything more than just Montero would have been a huge overpay. In Pineda we got the younger, cheaper option. I see Pineda latching on to Cano in the club house. This could be good.
While everyone is sitting here lamenting over the loss of Montero, keep in mind that Mason Williams shot up the list of prospects, he’ll likely be #1 in their whole organization this season. He plays a position of need for the Yankees. Another potential 5 tool player, albeit less power. Really wanted to see Montero, but from the practical business side of it, it just wasn’t going to happen on the Yanks. Some of us always knew this. Romine is far better defensive catcher and he’ll be backing up Martin this season. Sanchez another phenomenal prospect is maybe 2 years away. Good trade for both teams and as I said earlier the best part about getting Campos is to wash away that bad aftertaste of losing Viscaino in the Vasquez deal 2 years ago. I see it as an equal replacement.
i’m curious as to what exactly that non M’s baseball guy is smoking
more like Smoak-ing amirite
Thank God the yankees didn’t get Felix. That would have been really bad news for the Jays (and rest of AL east).
That’s true, but it also would have taken an even bigger hit on the Yankees farm system.
Gotta giggle at the “non-M’s baseball guy” who believes Noesi is a better long-term option for the Mariners than Pineda. Assuming it’s a strict head-to-head comparison that is. It’s a really short quote.
*And Twitter confirms that it is.
I think they meant to say “non-baseball guy”. It was just random guy they interviewed on the street.
Salk tends to talk out of his behind. The fact that he would even think that “tidbit” was worth mentioning says it all. It reflects poorly on him to give any credibility to someone who would think that.
this might be one of those trades that is a win for both teams. The M’s clearly traded from an area of strength in terms of young pitching. As stated by their future pitchers coming up and probably coming up very soon now. The yankees traded away a guy who was looking like a DH for them. Catcher is clearly held down by Martin and 1st is obviously locked up with Tex. Essentially they traded a DH for a top of the rotation pitcher. The real question is how do both of these guys translate to their new teams. Montero obviously will see number drop while hitting at home but his away numbers should be just fine. At worst he is a good hitter (better if he sticks at catcher) where as pineda is leaving the park that made him a great trade chip. His road ERA is 4.4 his ERA rose as the year went on(to be expected for a young pitcher)
there is a ton of risk from both teams, what if Montero truly is just yankees hype and busts and Pineda turns into a true ACE…what if Pineda was a one hit wonder, a good pitcher on a bad team in a pitcher park without true pressure and if Montero turns into a year in year out 30-40 HR .280+avg .350+OBP 800-900+OPS CATCHER?!?! no one knows…
i truly think this is a fair even trade…now if its true that the yankees offered Montero the B-boys plus more prospects for Felix I think they probably should have done that who knows.
garza is not better than pineda. he had a 1.10 ERA this year, garza can only dream about that, and this was pineda’s rookie season. in fact, i would say garza is superior to gio and lato
Pineda has to prove this by being good in the East. Garza proved that.
Garza: SIERA: 3.31 FIP: 2.95 xFIP: 3.19 WAR: 5
Pineda: SIERA: 3.36 FIP: 3.42 xFIP: 3.53 WAR 4.1
Garza had the better season
Why’d you have to bring stats into this?
1.10 WHIP*
Just because one side won doesn’t mean the other side had to lose. I don’t know about Montero=Piazza, but there was a lot of value going both ways in this deal. Those other names in the deal are by no means just throw ins, either…
The Mariners should have done the King Felix trade for the 3 prospects, that made more sense.
Says the Nats fan who’s team just traded prospects for a guy who’s twin is available as a FA
im a nats fan and we got double screwed on that one….i know peacock and milone will be awesome and a.j. cole should be a good one and they got a power hitting catcher as a throw in….
Thank god you don’t run the team.
You guys arent going to win in that division with the 2 teams ahead of who, Pineda is cost controlled for 5 years, and what happens if Felix leaves for more money in free agency. This way you guys would have had Pineda, Hultzen and the 2 young prospects for the future plus Montero.
They’ll try to resign Felix the year before his deal is up. If he doesn’t extend, they’ll trade him. How hard is that?
Yeah but when its that close to free agency you will never get back the type of package you can get now. I like the Mariners, Im not saying it to rub it in, I just like the young rotation you guys were building and Pineda was the last guy I thought you guys would ever move. I saw him pitch against us.
Pineda is likely not as good as his rookie year suggested. Heck, he struggled to some degree in the second half once teams adjusted.
Good point. I guess Im just going off the game I saw him pitch in Washington, he looked incredible.
I watched every one of his games, and I’m not completely sold. He has a ways to go still, so the fact that they got a highly rated hitter in return was a pretty good deal.
Fatigue for christ sake….. 98 mph, devastating breaking ball, changeup, impressive physical specimen and good control…. Tim Lincecum first year in mlb, 24 starts 4.00 ERA 146.1 IP 150 SO. Just because 22 year old Michael Pineda wasn’t a CY Young in his rookie year then all of the sudden he doesn’t deserve the hype. Come on, he has all the tools, could be better than Felix.
He only has 2 MLB quality pitches
All pitchers struggle at times, this kid has great stuff.
He only has 2 MLB quality pitches
I see what you’re saying, and you’re right that they won’t get the same type of package as they would now. The only problem with that is right now, no team is dumb enough to include a package that’s big enough to get Felix.
dude, why would the m’s give felix up when the guy likes the city they play in, he’s is being paid well now and i can see him maybe giving the m’s a discount….they got montero for a pitcher with some upside……they needed a big bat and for it they gave up pineda…..seattle’s pitching prospects are kind of like ours before beane got away with robbery
I don’t know who “you guys” are, but I assume you mean the M’s. Regardless of when they will or will not win, the fact stands that you would rather not do a win-win trade like the one that was done, and would rather give Felix at essentially the height of his value for three prospects just says enough.
Hate to break the news to you, but a Cy Young winner as young as Felix is, as good as he is, as cheap as he is doesn’t grow on trees. It’s going to take more than that to get him.
Agreed, the article says the three prospects and more, I guess we would have to see what the more is. And Im not saying you guys should have traded Felix, Im just saying you should have kept Pineda.
I don’t think so either. I honestly think they’re selling high trading Pindeda at this point. What gets me most is that the article says those three prospects and more, when realistically at this point a trade for Felix would include a package where those three prospects should be the “and more” part.
Don’t know how I feel about this trade? I really liked Michael but Jesus does bring offense and takes us basically out of the Prince race….on paper. I think if Boras isn’t able to use the Mariners as leverage against other teams, since Prince really doesn’t want to come here, it’s a good thing for the rest in his bidding. Since Kirudo signed with the Yanks then that means another one of his agents just lost another destination for his bidding.(E-Jax)
My thoughts too—I think that Edwin Jackson may have to take an incentive-laden 2 year deal now. But then again, I wonder if the Red Sox might come back to him to keep him away from Baltimore.
This could also bode badly for A.J. Burnett, depending on if the Yankees would be willing to eat his salary.
It’s pretty clear that the M’s are out of the running for Prince. If not, then…wow!
This is why Dave Cameron’s point about Oswalt or Ejax makes no sense to me.
This move says, we’re looking at 2013/2014. Why sign a big money pitcher now?
If memory serves me right, I think his proposal had many “ifs”, which included not using money to get Prince and trying to replace Pineda’s production, which in turn essentially puts them in the same place pitching wise, and better offensively without spending “Prince” type money.
Got it. I didn’t read Cameron’s piece so I was just looking at the headline like whaaaat?
The idea would be to sign Oswalt for 1/8 and flip him at the trade deadline for more hitting.
People who think the Yankees got a bad deal are crazy. I’m seeing people complain that hes just a 2-pitch pitcher. Uhhh, hes 22 right? Well assuming hes 22, the kid has plenty of time to polish up his secondary pitches. A guy named CC Sabathia was a 2 pitch pitcher his whole time in Clevleand, didnt pick up a changeup until recently. Stuff alone is going to get Pinieda by for the meantime. I here projections of 2-3 starter. The kid has the stuff to be a #1. I love Montero, hes an absolute monster of a hitter and im going to hate to see him go. But this deal is great for both teams, Pinieda is young and under team control for years, theres nothing not to like about this deal. Noesi is a nice pitcher but we have a few Noesi type pitchers (warren for ex) waiting in AAA. Campos has a higher upside, so all in all a great deal for both teams. Ive always loved Montero, and wish him success in the Ms, is he the future Miggy? idk, time will tell, but all I know the kid can hit, congrats Ms fans
He doesn’t have secondary pitches to polish. That’s the problem.
He throws 3 pitches, FB, SL, CH. The changeup is a show-me pitch and nothing more.
but hes 22. He can and most likely will improve his changeup. At least he has two nasty pitches, he can work on the secondary stuff, its not a big deal. and he has pretty darn good control of his pitches, 55 walks for a hard throwing rookie is amazing, which makes me believe he can be succesful.
Yankees fans really overrate their own prospects. It’s not like the Mariners turned down Matt Moore and Julio Teheran for Felix. If all goes well, Betances and Banuelos project to be solid middle of the rotation starters, not aces. Neither are as good as Walker/Hultzen/Paxton.
None of the M’s pitchers have pitched higher than AA ball, both Betances and Banuelos, while not ace like in AAA of course, had just as good stats in A and AA themselves. Too early to judge the M’s pitchers on whether they are better, but certainly great potential.
Funny hearing Braves fans accusing Yankees of overrating their prospects. Do I have to tell you how many times I hear things like “Teheran and Vizcaino and Simmons are untoucable” during those Prado and Jurrjens rumors (not referring to the ones with Adam Jones though)
What ridiculous hyperbole from Cashman: “To me, Montero is Mike Piazza. He’s Miguel Cabrera.” Piazza is a first-ballot HOF’er, and Cabrera is a perennial MVP/Triple crown candidate. Jesus Montero can’t catch and has had exactly one (1) quality month of hitting performance in the MLB. Otherwise, his AAA hitting has been mediocre to merely good. The Mariners will be sorry, having given up a proven quality pitcher for a dubiously overrated prospect.
First ballot……PED? Suspicion just like Bagwell, and Piazza wasn’t exactly regarded as a good defensive catcher. Comparing him to Miguel Cabrera is out of line….. Talk about over vauling players
Piazza and miggy cant catch either, good one about his aaa numbers being medicore.
In my approximation, the Mariners were thinking that with Jesus on their side, anything is possible.
The Jays’ mountain they’re climbing just got a lot taller
I’d try Jesus at 1B, LF and then failing that he’s a full time DH. The Mariners shouldn’t put him anywhere near C, for one… he isn’t a catcher… at all… and two, if he spends an entire season there, there is a greater chance he picks up some sort of injury. I just don’t understand why they’d even bother trying…
Seattle still needs more offense, seems like the perfect time to put in a cheeky bid for Fielder, try and get him for 5/100. Hell, make Boras happy and offer 3/36 for E-Jax as well.
Yanks made a good move. Pineda is a young stud and it is hard to find pitchers at 6′ 7” and 260lbs. CC is 6’7” and 290’lbs. Pineda fits the mold. Now for Felix it would have probably cost Montero, Banuelos, Betances, Gardner and Noesi, Phelps or Warren. It was too much for the Yanks. Plus, Russell Martin is at catcher and Gary Sanchez has more potential than Montero and is much better defensively. Sanchez is their future catcher and Montero never was. That’s why he was made available.
The Yankees made a excellent decision in giving up montero and Noesi and now, since they gave up montero there sure fire dh this season they will probably get a prince fielder of Carlos Pena both boras clients and one of boras’ other clients Edwin jaxon can possibly make the squad bc if they get one of the hitters they will get the pitcher as well
”
Also from Salk (on Twitter), he hears from “a non-M’s baseball guy” who believes Noesi is a better long-term option than Pineda.”
This is the best quote, considering Noesi is a dime a dozen pitcher.
On Montero, wouldn’t a catcher with Carlos Lee type production be a superstar?
Its just like Deerk Jeter over the last 7-10 years, if any other shortstop bats .300 with 12 HR and steals 15 bases, there average….but when your a Yankee your an elite shortstop.
Jeter is 2nd in WAR among SS’s the last 7 years. #justsaying
Jeter is 2nd in WAR among SS’s the last 7 years. #justsaying