4:33pm: There is optimism that a lockout can be avoided, ESPN’s Jayson Stark writes. Stark cites two sources who tell him there is a “path to a deal.” Both sides, however, seem to believe that the lockout suggests December 1 is a “hard deadline” to reach an agreement. If there were to be a lockout in December, it wouldn’t necessarily result in missed games, but it could delay the progress of the offseason and cut off player benefits.
TODAY, 12:32pm: ESPN.com’s Buster Olney writes (Insider link) that there’s no particular reason to think that the saber-rattling will lead to a significant interference in labor relations, stating his own “educated guess” that compromise will be found. Sources do tell him that the league side is indeed “incredibly frustrated” by the union’s foot-dragging and unwillingness to move on issues like the international draft. And that could still lead to a standoff that impacts the progress of this winter’s trade and free agent markets. But as Olney explains, there’s relatively little at stake in the talks (in relation to the immense amount of money that both sides are making) and plenty of time before the owners and union would risk interfering with the 2017 season.
YESTERDAY: Major League Baseball’s owners “will consider” instituting a player lockout if a new collective bargaining agreement between the league and the MLB Player’s Association can’t be found, according to a report from Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. The current CBA is set to expire on December 1st, and the sides are said to be at an impasse over several matters.
This is the first time we’ve heard a firm report suggesting that there could be a work stoppage — though, of course, there’s no imminent threat to actual baseball games with Spring Training not set to begin until mid-February and the regular season still four months off. It has long been assumed that the owners and union would resolve any differences, particularly given that the game has continued to experience growth in revenue, but talks have dragged on longer than expected.
In considering a lockout, the owners would be threatening to interfere with the conduct of the offseason’s business, much of which remains to be completed. Some have suggested that a failure to reach agreement by the new deadline might result in a continuation of the status quo; presumably, that’s still also a possibility. But if a deal can’t be struck and the owners take a hard line, it might well result in a freeze on transactions right before the Winter Meetings.
It’s important to bear in mind that there are strategic reasons for suggesting the possibility of a lockout, which would require a vote of ownership to be instituted. And with just over a week left to finish negotiations, there’s still time for a resolution. Commissioner Rob Manfred says he’s still “committed to the idea that we’re going to make an agreement before expiration,” while union chief Tony Clark declined comment.
The sides are certainly jockeying for position on the remaining issues; no doubt, each is familiar with the other’s positions at this stage. The key matters yet to be determined are, however, rather notable. According to Rosenthal, the owners offered to get rid of any tying of free agents to draft compensation (as currently embodied in the qualifying offer system), but requested an international draft in exchange. The union, it seems, has lined up behind the idea that the draft would be too onerous.
There’s also disagreement regarding the competitive-balance tax and the Joint Drug Agreement. As to the former issue, it seems largely a matter of divvying up dollars and figuring out ways to ensure that teams put any subsidies into their major league roster. With regard to the latter, it seems that all are agreed on the need to add force to the JDA, but the players are asking to be compensated in exchange.
Rosenthal spoke with sources to get a read of the situation, and his article is well worth a full read. The takeaway seems to be that there’s still a path toward completing an agreement before the CBA expires, but the players are also prepared to dig in their heels. There’s certainly much to be lost for both sides in the event of a serious labor dispute, and that fact remains the best reason to retain hope that a lockout can be avoided. While this bit of brinkmanship is hardly determinitive, though, it’s also a notable sign that there have been real difficulties in seeing eye to eye.
Come on boys, you got this
F this
MLB Owners and the Players Union are not stupid. Fans will not tolerate any type of work stoppage and both sides know this. I see this as last minute posturing.
the owners obsession with a completely impractical and unworkable international draft would seem to imply your first sentence may not be accurate….
But I remember reading that the players union is against the international draft and the only owners I see wanting it are those that are consistently in the basement.
the players union is against the international draft because they actually know how the current system works, the ownership clearly does not based on the ridiculous proposal they’re fighting for. They’d kill the golden goose just to make the eggs cost less.
the commissioner’s office has wanted it since the Bud Selig days just because of the rising costs of the top prospects. and that fact that Selig was obsessed with it should tell you how bad of an idea it is.
If it were just the ones in the basement, then it wouldn’t be holding up negotiations. It’s obviously the majority of the owners and the power brokers that are pushing for an international draft.
An international draft makes sense to everybody unless you’re a rich team…
or a teenager in a 3rd world country with no access to the same level of high school leagues and college competition that Americans do… and no option to say no and go to college if you don’t like being criminally low-balled by the team that just drafted you…
it makes no sense to anyone except the rich owners who want to cut costs. They don’t like paying 3 million for a 16-year old who likely will never make the majors. The rich teams want it more than the poorer teams because they’re the ones who pay more for the busts.
What are you talking about?
International players have options. They can play in amateur, semi-pro or professional leagues in their own or neighboring countries if they can’t agree to a contract, then be eligible for the draft the following year. They have just as many options as a college player might have in this country if he failed to sign after being drafted.
How many Latin American players get huge bonuses though? There’s a small handful and then the rest are all signed for amounts that look like slot values.
no, they don’t have options. There’s only a few dozen spots on summer league of carribean league teams and they have to compete with pro players for those.
They don’t have organized high school leagues, college isn’t a possibility for the poor families most these kids come from. The independent leagues don’t pay enough to justify leaving the country for.
Their options would be take the 5 grand minimum the team’s offering, or go into the fishing or service industry, because they live in the 3rd world and their brothers and sisters need to eat..
Unless MLB’s willing to take over the development of thousands of prospects from about the age of 12 to get them to the same level as american kids of the same age, which MLB simply is not, then the players from outside the US are getting hosed by this deal. and MLB knows it, which is why they want it in the first place. to cut costs.
which is why the players who have actually been in that situation are saying no.
They don’t have any options really and the owners know that. They understand they have no voice. The issue being there is no actual structure. MLB has finally started doing a decent job with infrastructure for inner city kids interns of urban youth academies. US kids Puerto Rican kids all have junior college and college. And trying to get Dominican and Venezuelan players even eligible for junior college baseball is a difficult process than most are willing to take on. It is also seemingly becoming extinct as junior college athletic scholarships are in major danger in certain states. So even after Jc it’s nearly impossible to get them past.
In such countries that we are discussing we also have to understand economically it makes sense for only so long. Semi pro ball is a joke. Like mentioned earlier opportunities are rare.
If owners really want to put the money where their mouth is they would spend money to create that infrastructure in the Latin American counties but let’s be honest they don’t want to. Just as they don’t feel the need to pay minor leaguers minimum wage.
Petrie, you hit the nail squarely on the head. Until MLB steps up and creates little league, high school, and college baseball opportunities in every nation they want to be subject to the international draft, then there is nothing to replace the current system in the Dominican, Venezuela, Mexico, Central America and the other countries that we are seeing international free agents from today. The kids we are seeing sign from these countries really have no other options, no other teachers of baseball, no other chance to get out of their situation. Its not like the US. Anyone who has traveled to those countries knows that.
Have you ever been to the DR? Or Venezuela? If you had, you would know that what you said is a total crock. Most of these kids will never even LEARN the game of baseball to begin with, without the buscones and the academies they run. Most can’t afford a baseball, let alone a glove, spikes, bats, and uniforms. Most won’t get even a high school education without the buscones.
Right, because massive market restriction of players earning capability and opportunity, makes sense for the players. Sure.
To be fair, it does kind of make sense for the MLBPA, seeing as it’s clearly a top priority for many owners (and thus, a major bargaining chip), and it won’t negatively impact any current 40-man players directly.
Just need to assign minimum slot values to each pick, that’s the only way to make it fair.. the better the prospect the higher he gets paid
Petrie000, would you like to spend 3,000,000 dollars on someone that won’t ever help you reach the goal, winning the World Series?
Well said by cubsoxcessful!
It’s a business. Bring on the draft if it keeps baseball golden on both sides.
I don’t buy my tickets to make the world better.
Hey bed wetters, this is entertainment. The fans and owners are not responsible for the third world economy countries.
nobody likes wasting money, but destroying an entire industry in a country that badly needs the money just because you’re a little peeved about a bad business transaction nobody’s forcing you to make is a bit of an over-reaction, to say the least
they could try think like hard spending caps and stiffer penalties to curb the bidding wars driving up the prices… but that would be the kind of logic one doesn’t really expect from pro sports leagues these days
Matthew – Less than 20% of all 1st round picks become everyday players in the major leagues. Teams are already spending millions, often much more than $3 million, on players that don’t help the team win the WS. That is not a good argument for an International Draft and it doesn’t address the major issue. How do you replace the current system in countries like the DR and Venezuela where independent agents or “buscones” feed, house, clothe, educate, and train these young kids in the game of baseball to the point that a major league team starts to take notice of them? If MLB institutes an international draft most of these kids will never even have an opportunity to be found. They will never even learn the game at all because the guys that are footing the bill to help them learn the game now will have no incentive to continue doing it. Do you think MLB is going to create a system of little league, junior high, high school and college baseball in the DR and Venezuela and other countries to replace the current system? I don’t think so. This is an attempt by the teams to save money and it won’t work as they have outlined it.
Today, 30% of the players come from those countries and if a draft is instituted without a system put in place FIRST to replace the system of independent agents footing the bill to train in baseball and in most cases house, feed and educate these kids, there will be little in terms of baseball talent coming out of those countries. The teams are attempting to save money and as we have seen from both the protests in the DR and Venezuela, it’s not going to work without MLB ponying up alot of money to replace the current system in those countries. first. If they start spending the tens of millions needed per year in those countries, maybe we have an International Draft for the next CBA in 5-6 years.
Nobody should be for the draft… Why should the worst team get two number one picks in the same year… that is beyond stupid. Most all the tanking goes on over the draft pick order and that can’t be fair to double the amount of the first pick in both.
The fans will tolerate a strike. If 1994 didn’t destroy the game, nothing will. Fans have very short memories and are very forgiving.
the 1994 strike helped turn the NFL into Americans sport instead of baseball. A strike would be horrible when baseball is finally making a resurgence.
Exactly and not just that one, but the prior one which led to a split season fiasco.. fans will desert again to other sports and the game will lose more.
ownership isn’t to blame, this time around 9again) it’s pure ngreed on the player’s side.. Giving up TOTAL compensation for FA should show how far the teams have gone for nothing more than an IFA draft.
Ha! Show me a single baseball player who is worth as much as a single baseball owner and we can talk about greed. Nobody ever bought a ticket to watch Tom Ricketts sit in his luxury suite.
100% agree David – Greed get you no where. If they stop baseball and it starts to effect Neg with FA and ST the fans will remember. It took a long time the last strike.
Baseball and football are two sports during different seasons. They don’t compete except in Semptember. Gambling and fantasy football drove football’s popularity.
Yeah, probably.
“will consider” lol nah you wont – dumbest bluff ever
Gives the braves a reason to hold on to albies
Considering the relatively minor issues being discussed, this is ludicrous. I can only imagine what might happen if truly important matters were on the table, ones that could actually improve the game immeasurably.
NO MORE QUALIFYING OFFER WITH A 1ST ROUND PICK ATTACHED
Agreed 100 percent. Impacts a players pocketbook by detering teams that could be on the fence to sign him, and all over a draft pick? Who the hell came up with his rule in the first place.
I think an international draft would be great but I just don’t see it happening. But I have a few questions.
1) players that defect from MLB is rather spontaneous, so would the cuban defecters have to wait for the draft to sign? What about Japanese players that get posted?
2) I have never been a big fan of teams shelling out millions of dollars for 15-16 year olds (It’s great for them obviously). So how would this work? Top youngsters drafted in later rounds or not at all.
3) is there an age limit? I would assume so. But if you can draft an 17 year old out of Latin America, do college players still have to wait until after their junior year to be eligible.
Too many kinks and will take years to figure out, if they ever do.
Yeah I’m curious as to how that would work for Japanese players too. Given that the current system is built so that MLB doesn’t deplete the Japanese leagues easily and not without high compensation to the Japanese club if the money isn’t there we just won’t see any talent from Japan coming here, and really if a player wants to play in MLB, I don’t like that they are kinda held hostage by another team but I also understand why.
An international draft is only going to be available to Latin American countries or countries without an established league.
why are you yelling sbrownies?
They bet not strike.
The growth in revenue creates the main sticking point between the players and owners. Especially when the pie gets bigger, the argument over how it gets split up is bound to intensify.
Someone on here made a comment something along the lines of the other teams were annoyed that The A’s were not spending the revenue they were “given”. Is this true and if so is this something the Players Union would be concerned about?
Teams on the receiving end of revenue sharing pocketing the money instead of spending it on payroll is bound to be an issue for the players.
Hasn’t that been going on for a very long time? I’m not sure why that wasn’t even looked the last time the CBA expired. Or the ones prior to that, whichever years they happened in.
Probably, but revenue in baseball has exploded since the last CBA. Bigger pie, bigger fight. Surprise!
Do we know this for sure? I know it’s really hard to see the financials of an MLB team and suspect it is happening but what we know for sure, and how big the issue is isn’t easy to determine.
I also wonder if you’re one of the clubs sending money down to a team that’s pocketing it, do you want them to spend it? If they do then that would just drive up the price of players so they get hit twice!
But yeah, totally agree, it does make sense that the players union wouldn’t like this.
We know that overall revenue in the game has risen tremendously. MLB has over $10 billion per year in revenue today. Part of that is the local TV contracts that are measured in billions of dollars even for small market teams now and part of that is the massive increase in internet & mobile based revenue such as MLB.tv. The revenue today is almost double what it was when they last negotiated a new CBA and $8 billion more than it was in 2003. The bigger issue is that the team’s share of revenue has risen from about 45% in 2003 to over 60% today. The player’s share needs to be addressed. I am certain that the major sticking point in these negotiations is not the intl draft or the QO or service time manipulation. It is a multitude of issues that cumulatively will raise the players share of total baseball revenue to at least 50% and keep the division of revenue equitable. A huge part of that is an increase in the luxury tax that will allow the big market teams to spend more. For the past couple of years, teams like the Angels, Giants, and Rangers that have large market revenues have limited player payrolls because of the cost of going over the luxury tax. I think another major issue for the MLBPA will be a minimum team payroll given the 31% revenue sharing that is in place. Some small market teams like the Marlins, Rays, Brewers and to a lesser extent the the A’s and Diamondbacks, are just not increasing their payrolls to reflect the additional revenue they are receiving from the large market teams in revenue sharing.
I agree but the average salary for a player now adays is at an all-time high and the qualifying offer is at 17.2 MILLION dollars. Thats insane! If someone(s) shells out 500 million dollars investing into a ballclub, if revenue increases then good for them. That’s capitalism.
This reminds me off empoyees at McDonalds asking for $15 an hour just bc mcds can afford it. Shut up and play the game, it’s not your money ponied up to own a ballclub. And on top of the salaries these players are treated like KINGS. 5 star hotels, free food, endorsement deals, free clothes and shoes etc. If I ownee a business and my employees kept wanting more and more money because I made a smart business decision I would fire them all! Lol. Exaggerating of course but i think its all ridiculous. MIC DROP.
Yup, I saw a ball club owner standing on the street corner the other day peddling pencils. It was so sad.
Look, these are all really rich people arguing about who gets to push their snouts deeper into the trough. No cause to take anybody’s side.
@matthewalan09 why is it that when people believe in capitalism they think that anything an owner does is okay. In capitalism and the free market the worker also has the right to refuse to work unless they are compensated the amount they feel is appropriate.
People at McDonalds are not asking the owners for $15 an hour “because they can afford it”, it’s because they feel that’s what they should be paid. There’s nothing wrong with asking for what they want, unionizing and refusing to work unless you get it. This is freedom at work and the exact same principles apply to baseball players. In fact it’s kinda interesting that the MLB players are so well compensated given that there’s really only one league they can play in.
But I agree with you on the food thing… they should be buying their own food the cheap b**tards! 😉
I think the difference is there are very few people who can afford a baseball team to own. Most of these owners made their Millions/Billions in some other business they were highly successful in, then bought a baseball team. Baseball players, on the other hand, are a dime a dozen. Owners can own til death, baseball players have at most a 15-20 year career. Hence the reason there are always younger players to eventually take their place. And fans, fans will always, always come back. We all talk a big game….but most of us all come back.
Big Mac Meal $9.99 on the VALUE menu.
Owners need the players, not the other way around. When are we going to have a worker owner cooperative in MLB? The players and alums are rich enough to pull it off if they really wanted to.
I say run the owners out of town. I go to Yankee stadium to see all the exciting young teams that come to play against the Yanks, not to see the Steinbrenners.
Yeah. When you walk into a McDonalds the one thing I bet you’re wondering is , “boy I sure hope I catch a glimpse of the McDonalds CEO today, and I hope he’s doing okay with money.” He received a 348% raise last year, btw. Likewise, I truly doubt when you go to a baseball game – or watch one on TV, you’re anxiously hoping to get a shot of Artie Moreno in the owner’s suite.
The players do the work. The players often get debilitating, life-long injuries from just doing their jobs. They deserve their fair share of the pie.
Yes, but no on makes the players play. They choose to play the game and are more than happy to play it and make more in one or two years than I will likely earn in 20 if not my lifetime. You’re right I don’t care about who the owners are, but I’m tired of the players whining about money. I’ll be happy to start out making $50,000 plus after college and maybe make $70-$100 a year before I retire. Let not forget all the student loans I’ll be paying off soon. They get to play a game of love to get paid to play. I’d happily take home whatever a team would give me and I’d love it.
Yes, the amount of money they make is a lot, but it’s not for some arbitrary reason. People don’t pay to watch you do your job. Your job, like theirs, is compensated fairly considering how much money you each bring in to your respective companies
Well, I don’t know what you do for a living, but you can’t compare it to a job in which only about 800 people in the whole world can do. And I doubt you work at a job in which people pay to watch you work.
So you’d play baseball for a dollar a year? Good for you. But youd be getting exploited. There’s plenty of money to go around, and the people who bring in the money – the players, certainly deserve their share of the profits from their endeavors. What you call “whining” I think is just equity. I hope in your job you believe you are paid and treated equitably.
Yeah but no one wants to pay $50 to watch YOU play baseball, there’s already thousands of baseball players making no money in the minors and indy leagues. Guess what, no one goes to those games.
These guys get paid so well because baseball is a multi-BILLION dollar industry and these guys have literally been working most of their LIFE to get to the top.
These aren’t people just playing a game, they are the best at what they do in the WORLD. If you were top of your job field I bet you’d be pretty upset to only make 70K.
That’s like saying “Oh why does so-and-so actor make 20 million a movie? I’m willing to go on camera and read lines for 50K!”
Nice try, but wrong answer. Without the players there is no baseball. We saw strike baseball when the replacement players were brought in and it was bad. Really bad. It was so bad that attendance was down 60%. The owners can’t replace the elite athletes that play in MLB. Right now those players are receiving less than 40% of the revenue. That is not right and I’m sure that is a huge impediment to a new agreement.
Without the fans, there’s definitely no baseball. That money they are fighting over, it’s our money.
Kevin Millar
You are correct, it’s our money that they are fighting over. We can’t have baseball without the players. Give them the share of all the new revenue sources baseball has today. As a business owner in a technology business, I know that if the share of revenue to worker pay changes tremendously, as it has in baseball, the union of my employees will ask to renegotiate our contract. It’s happened 3 times in the past 20 years as new sources of revenue for my company have been created by changes in technology. My company cannot exist without my highly trained employees. Yes, I can hire new employees, but the cost of retraining and then retaining new people costs me more than a year of payroll for my current employees. Baseball faces much the same issue. They can’t replace the current players and MLB has seen huge increases in revenue from local TV contracts and digital sources such as MLB.TV. They need to create a system that gives the players an equitable share of all the new revenue.
First, of all, there are plenty of places for Caribbean draftees to play. Every MLB franchise has a team in the Dominican Summer League, and most have baseball academies as well. Since these teams are financially supported by their ticket sales, there would be no problem establishing another league in Mexico or Puerto Rico as well.
Pads is right about the players’ share of revenue, which has been declining for decades now.. I’m sure the union knows this if I do.
The DSL teams don’t normally charge admission for their games. MLB teams bankroll their investments in those leagues, not the residents of Boca Chica.
Would a work stoppage burn a year off guys like moncoda and Swanson since they were up at the end of the year?
No
This is crazy talk. I want the baseball season to start NOW. There’s nothing good on tv!
Basketball and football
I love both basketball and football but the showboating stuff kinda annoys me in both those leagues so I don’t watch. I like that baseball has *less* of that kinda stuff and when you act like a knob someone throws a ball at them. Happened to me enough when I played and pulled me into line! 🙂
lol basketball and football he says. That’s funny.
He said something good. Baseball is the only sport I’ll ever watch and like.
Just get it done for crying out loud. This is the kind of crap that makes me hate unions.
Because of course the owners aren’t greedy.
Nothing in here reflects poorly on the players union, or the right of workers to join a union.
Watch the NCAA if you like watching hard working athletes being ripped off by old rich men. Or travel back in time to the Roman Coliseum.
This is really unnecessary on both sides, it’s not like there’s a giant issue on hand
There is. It’s a 5 letter word – Money.
But it’s not like that much money is even at stake
Only a few billions. Nothing to write home about.
I’m all for forcing teams who get money from the Competitive Balance tax to put that money into the team. There are too many owners who take that money & pocket it and do nothing to improve their teams. That isn’t competitive balance. If you want competitive balance, require the owners to put the money into improving their roster
^^^^this….I would want them to come up with a way that the money is verifiable every season
Being compensated for failing a drug test? That can’t be taken seriously. If anything it should void the contract at the club’s discretion.
in this case what they mean by ‘compensation’ is that if the Union agrees to stiffer penalties, the MLB will give them something in return, such as a salary floor to guarantee more revenue gets spent on payroll
not compensating the players who fail the drug tests
isn’t that a fancy way of saying “give me more money so i can pay the higher fines?” Enforcement of rules regarding drug use should require no extra compensation since no penalties can be levied if rules aren’t broken.
No,that’s not what it means. This is a negotiation–owners want things, players want things, and they swap off. Concessions need to be met by concessions
no, not it really isn’t
the players union wants more money going to the players, which isn’t really all that unreasonable since without the players there’s no money at all
the owners don’t want to do that for obvious reasons, so the players union needs leverage to force them to agree to a restructuring… one of those things is the JDA. The union’s already been pretty accommodating on that issue already. it’s about time the owners bent a little if it’s really ‘for the good of the game’
Can’t see this happening. They learned from the strike of 94. Hurt everyone
The QO was low-lying fruit the owners were always willing to drop if they could get something big, and an international draft saves potentially hundreds of millions of dollars–take a look at some of the crazy signing bonuses.
Revenue sharing–and tanking, and remaining profitable while fielding a horrible team, is something that needs serious study.
I think the path to major-league baseball should be an even one, a fair one….no posting system, no $60 million latino rookie players, everyone goes through a draft…they can be separate drafts, but there’s no reason why a 18-year-old kid from the Dominican republic has more opportunity to earn big bucks than a stud College senior
Oh and while I’m at it, we should get back to the type a and type B free agents….or scrap the whole system altogether
College players are typically drafted after their junior season is completed.
Well doesn’t seem fair to Asian leagues looking to keep their league in tact. Doesn’t make sense for the Latin American player with no options with a metaphorical gun held to their head because they have no other recourse. And just by definition American high school kids and college players have more an ability to make big bucks or opportunity to make big bucks or even a liveable above poverty life wage just by attending high school or college. So fair for who?
If I ran the league, I wouldn’t push for a international draft, as in a separate one, I’d include every player in one draft. And yes it can work, it does in hockey and they get players from as many different countries as baseball does.
I’d give the union 26 man rosters BUT only 25 active each game. So, you can healthy scratch one player per game. I’d allow 40 players on September rosters, but same thing, only 25 active for each game.
Other than that, the game seems to be in good shape.
I’d be okay with adding a few players to the roster each day in September. Give them 3 or 4 extra players, but limit the number of pitchers they can use. If the team is allowed 28 players, only 1 of the extra 3 can be a pitcher.
One comment I would make. This is an industry where a lot of people make a lot of money. Players get paid extremely well, once they get into arbitration. Owners’ franchise values have skyrocketed, they get free goodies from the cities they are in, and absurdly favorable tax treatments. Both side should see the value of continuing it. I am old enough to remember declining attendance, old stadiums, declining fan-bases. The industry should realize life is good right now.
Preach!
My hunch.
It isn’t “big markets” versus “small markets”
The Mets and Yankees share the same market. As do the Angels and Dodgers. And Cubs and White Sox.
Some ownership groups seem to have their….. ummmmm….. stuff together. Those that do have no qualms with spending six million per annum on international baseball. Teams that don’t want to spend even half of that, hate the status quo.
Some teams grasp the importance of spending on scouting the college ranks. For teams that think two scouts ought to be enough for the state of Texas., that might be a problem.
Some owners think the best way to make money in the business is to limit entry costs. Others, think the best way is by producing a good baseball organization.
Tom Ricketts was once on one side of the equation. He has shifted to the other side of it.
Yeah, this could be problematic. Two entirely different mindsets.
At least I’ll still have minor league baseball in the spring.
Am I the only one who likes things the way they are ? (Other than the fact that teams receiving money MUST spend it on players or give it back)
The QO is an issue that needs to be modified, and maybe make a stiffer penalty on teams who go over the luxury tax?
Stiffer? Even the Yankees are trying to get under it…
I just mean stiffer so teams won’t want to go over it in the first place
the system as it exists seems to be working as intended, so don’t fix what’s not broke
They have mortgage contracts from the end of their 90’s-00’s dynasty they’ve been getting rid of the last few years. They’re retooling for THAT reason, not because their payroll was just too pricey or they’re actually afraid of the luxury tax.
No you’re not.
Teams have other costs than just players. We have good news and bad news team, youre all getting raises, but you will be flying coach, and staying at the Red Roof.
what ever agreement is made , have them put more real beer in my cup than water and i`m sure that will cost me an extra 5.00 dollars as well to go along with the 10.00 im paying already!!!
Stop buying beer problem solved. Ticket and concession prices are that high because you are willing to complain about ten dollar beer yet not willing to stop yourself from buying it. If you stop and get enough of your local fans to stop buying the beer the prices will go down..
If LAA owner, Arturo Moreno, is on the Owner’s Committee, someone ought to ask him if he ever committed antitrust violations when he was the CEO of his Billboard Company?
Owners are too GREEDY to let this go on , They have Places of Businesses Built and Maintained by Tax Payers making( some making minimum wage ) minuim Wage and then charge the People who Built the Stadiums ( Places of Business ) a fee to go into the Place that they the people payed to build..
Yes to the international draft, no to the current Qualifying Offer system. Yes to stricter drug penalties, shorter seasons, more days off.
And a big NO to whatever it is the Athletics are doing.
I hope the owners know that if they strike they won’t have PEDs to make the games exciting with homeruns and extended careers of the star players. I’m just saying
Dang…. Players wanting more ridiculous amounts of money……. Owners giving players all
Of the money they want…. Even mega bucks for a 500 pitcher….. Mega Bucks for a .250 hitter……. And you know who will
Pay for all of these more mega millions?? At the turn style. It cost over $700 for a family of 4 to go to one ballgame. Tickets, room, eats!!! We ( the middle classe working people and retire individuals) can’t afford any more ticket price increases or concession increases. I remember Stan Musial taking a pay cut during his last season because he wasn’t as productive the previous season. That’s the way players ought to be paid now a days!!!
Tickets are expensive in other sports where salaries are limited or capped too, which proves your theory is nonsense. Player salary isn’t the reason games have gotten more expensive.
Never thought I’d agree with a cards fan, but you’re so right!
The NFL and NHL have – by far – the most expensive average ticket of the four major sports. They both have salary caps. Tickets, concessions, etc, are all a supply-and-demand issue. Stadium revenue is only a small part of the revenue stream – the overhead of putting on a game is pretty expensive for the team and its vendors.
And Stan Musial? Good for him. He made less than a million dollars in his career. He was one of the very best players of all time. Do you think he made more than a million dollars for the Cardinals over those 22 seasons? He was exploited.
Get your heads out of your butts MLB.
Stopped watching NBA years ago, and have yet to watch one minute of NFL this year!
Go ahead MLB jump off of the ledge!
@micg, I read that NFL ratings are down. Just curious. Why don’t you watch NBA or NFL?
I see we are back to the the greedy owners greedy players argument. Owners invest capital for a return. Because they are rich and influential, they get far better tax treatment than you and I do. Because politicians worry about losing teams, they pony up public money in the billions for private enterprise. The players have talents that none of us can approach–if we could throw a FB in the 90’s, or hit a ball 450 feet feet, we would do it, and we would want to be paid as much as we possibly could. The argument that the very best of these players should do it for the love of the game is absurd–and it’s anti-capitalist when every person should have the right to maximize, and monetize, their talents.
If these people are smart, they will butt head for a while, settle, and go back to earning huge dollars.
@mike156… I totally agree!
Totally on point. Of course each person involved wants to maximize their own profit, regardless of how much money they already have. I, along with 99% of other fans, would be trying to maximize my share too, but I do think there’s too much money involved on both sides for this to carry past January.
On a related note, I’ve never really understood why fans get so angry at overpaid players, as though they would give back their salary if they were in, say, Jason Heyward’s position. I sure as hell wouldn’t.
I think added to your point @aff10. MLB players are competitive about everything, including salaries. They want to be the best paid at their position more often than not. On top of that money and contract length is respect and security. If a player is being paid $1 million a year it’s an easy decision to cut them if they are playing badly. If they are getting paid some serious money, the team tends to stick with a player longer if they are playing badly.
I just find it funny that people here talk about restricting trade which is a contradiction to capitalism. People don’t like the prices to go to a game don’t pay them. Regular everyday people would be outraged if there market/earning potential was “restricted.” The difference here is the recourse or ability to pursue compensation that properly encompasses talents or educational achievements. And the major issue here has nothing to do with millionaires, or minor leaguers that don’t even get paid minimum wage which that’s a different topic for another day. We are talking about poverty stricken teenage kids that have no other recourse. But you know let’s be hypocritical here and argue that their trade should be restricted. It’s only logical to envision a system where draft allocations are an absolute joke because owners now control the economical output. Kind of sounds like the minor league system now in place. I know shocking right. So owners, big market or small market, get no sympathy from me.
To which I would add, MLB is specifically exempted from antirust laws. Collusion that would be illegal in any other industry is allowed in baseball.
Hey that does not fit a lot one sided arguments don’t mention something like that nor the public subsidies that owners receive.
The international draft isn’t to protect the owners, it protects the players. International players get exploited in the current system, by agents and illegal fences/smugglers.
Some players have to payoff mobs for years just to keep these criminal rings from literally killing family members.
It’s true the draft benefits owners, and that is unfortunate. If you have a way to mitigate that while still protecting the players, I’m all ears. In the meantime though, the current system has to go.
I’m for an international draft but not sure how it would stop fences/smugglers? For example, wouldn’t many of the Cuban players still need to get smuggled out of Cuba in order to get to a country where they could register for the draft anyway?
Yes but the most nefarious ones will not get involved if the payout is a draft bonus of 400K instead of a signing bonus of 15 million.
I don’t know if an international draft fixes all. The system in the DR is pretty exploitative as far as bringing kids into the game, and it’s difficult to see how a draft changes that very much. In this country we draft out of high school and universities. In the DR they are still going to be drafting out of camps.
Sure that’s the redirect but without infrastructure or preventative measures it’s filed under “good intentions” with clear alternative motives. I fail to see how limiting their potential earning will prevent such injustices. That logic is kind of baffling really. Let’s understand what such agents do. They provide service for exactly that. With no substantial high school infrastructure or policing force you’ve accomplished nothing except allow owner to pay pennies for their service essentially making American players even more easily expandable.
Everyone hand wringing about an international draft needs to take a breath and read about the era before the amateur draft. Who cried the loudest against it? The Yankees and a few others. The flow of talent into the league was so slanted and uncompetitive that something had to give, and so we got a draft. Then what? Everyone quit playing baseball and the world collapsed and we haven’t had professional baseball in America in fifty years? No, that didn’t happen although that’s what a few mouthpieces out there might be telling us is going to happen in the event of an intl draft. It’s not something that can be taken lightly, and there’s a lot of complications to work out because of the difference in HOW talent flows in from the DR and the rest of the Latin world, but something has to give eventually.
The people that get hurt by a draft are teams that want to outmuscle the opposition with their financial leverage and stockpile talent in ways that other teams can’t afford. The MLBPA of course gives zero F’s as they can benefit from a rigged auction system as much as the top few teams can… they’d be perfectly happy if three teams signed everyone and had a budget of four billion dollars each and then mopped the floor with the other 27 teams every year. A draft does limit the earning potential of the couple of guys at the top.. but when the money they were going to make was a number generated by a slanted system, whatever, read an economics book or shut up.
Kind of sounds like you’re arguing semantics. It’s not that difficult to understand that a cap or draft allotment hurts the earning power of all, slanted system or no slanted system. Obviously you set a bag of peanuts as the overall allotment players are going to earn a bag of peanuts. So yes it hurts earning potential of all because it constricts a free market. It’s not like I you know read and Econ book or earned a you know advance degree in this type of profession.
You’re also arguing a system in which there were 20 teams. In today’s system small market teams are subsidized by larger market teams with Rev sharing. The boom of the tv contract is a new phenomenon that has only now surfaced within 20 year and will will die sooner as our consumption for media continues to rapidly change. Payroll is also not policed and there is no floor. So it’s kind of interesting to think of where that money might go. We already have a joke of a system where American players have leverage and it shows. But hey that’s the recourse they are allowed. None of which is available to Latin American players.
Small market teams tend to draft singable less talented college players and high ceiling high school players are drafted later by large market teams because of bonus issues. So before we talk about instituting an international draft how about we fix what we have now.
When it comes down to it. Nobody but owners win in an international draft. You’re still going to assume the sign ability issues at the top. There’s still no major uniformity in Latin America. You still don’t address the major issue. All you do is give the owners ability to filter out smaller bonuses. Which has led us to an even greater shame as minor league players fight for a fair salary which has gone unchecked until recently. Which like an international draft will go largely unchecked.
In reality the issue being discussed has revolved around the Cuban market. It was a market largely untapped and most likely been tapped out now because of the exclusivity and stranglehold of the island. Major League Baseball in reality was not prepared for it. So now we want to change a system because of a one time explosion or occurrence that has tapered off? Players with international experience will still be subject to higher bidder, KBO and NPB will still be subject to posting fees etc, and rightfully so. So what do we fix with a international draft?
The premise that there’s actually anything in baseball resembling a free market in more than the most superficial ways is exactly what I find so preposterous. Just because it’s not overtly regulated in any consistent, organized, and meaningful way (and it most emphatically is NOT) doesn’t really mean everyone’s freely competing with one another. Smaller clubs get revenue sharing money but it’s a pittance compared to the huge gaps in cash flow that we have between teams. Most teams cannot afford to miss on draft picks, trades, and free agents, so they manage rosters and payroll very conservatively. Until teams have the same level of legitimate interest in free agents and other high money players the system is slanted and uncompetitive.
When there’s a slanted system – and there IS a slanted system – the prices players are seeing are a product of that system. Change the slant of the system even slightly and yes, the numbers are going reflect that.
How I would work to change the slant – I’ve always been for a salary cap/floor combo with revenue sharing that actually hits the top teams hard and actually gets the smaller teams enough reliable cash flow that they aren’t risking the entire future of their club joining the bidding on top players. It’s something that you can’t flesh out in an MLBTR mobile app comment section but there’s essentially no way players can lose in a system that in effect issues small market teams huge free agent/extension mandatory gift certificates. Henry and Werner might not like it but again, too bad.
Frankly if I was in charge I’d be just TALKING about an international draft to get the ball rolling on it with a goal of one or two CBA cycles down the line but as I said there’s way too many issues at play to slap something together over the winter.
You don’t fix the buscone issue. Which is a major issue. Most kids don’t have the ability or resources to learn or even have have a chance to provide themselves with the basic equipment without Buscones. So with that said what’s going to stop them from funneling players to one teams academy. Now you just create 30 different MAJOR Buscones. They don’t have and couldn’t afford a showcase circuit similar to the US. So US teams are still going to draft regionally and hide players. So unless the MLB creates an infrastructure it’s a load of you know what. Without MLBs willingness to put their money where there mouth is it’s just all propaganda to continue the narrative of small market v big market. But then again if you knew about the structure or visited the country or countries or scouted players from that area you would know that but it wouldn’t be in a Econ book.
honestly, if the buscones were really the problem they’re made out to be (they’re really not. the major problems in recent years have come from the cuban ‘agents’ who are more human traffickers than trainers), MLB could solve it by simply insisting on licensing the buscones and only allowing teams to deal with accredited ones
Well in some cases they are in others they aren’t but such an issue is up for debate until like you said they are licensed or policed. And yes human traffickers are a major problem. I still view the infrastructure as the major issue. You’re essentially signing based solely on tools and project ability. The learning curve is so far behind because they simply haven’t played like in the US. But a majority of this argument is based on the signings of Cuban born prospects which is a one sided argument and doesn’t take into account all players subject to the draft.
The issue for me always comes back talent flowing into the league in an uneven manner. I’d love to live in a world where the status quo is perfectly okay but realistically the system is stacked and teams do NOT compete fairly for new international talent.
But organization wise and structure wise I think we are unrealistic in assuming the amateur system is even remotely close to those in developed nations. Your drafting 16 year olds usually restricted to their specific regions. An international draft doesn’t fix the flow of talent without infrastructure. So you can implement an amateur draft but flow of talent is still skewed. You can’t draft them as 18 year old because they’re still extreme development needed. So now without infrastructure what have you created? Nothing really. You’re discussing a system that is 20 years down the road if the MLB puts significant resources into it.
I think the biggest issue you’re glossing over is an international draft will not fix the uneven flow of talent. Maybe in terms of trying to regulate Cuban born players but that market is essentially all tapped. Instituting an international draft does not address the major issues. It’d be ignorant to assume amateur baseball is even close to developed countries. You’re not fixing anything without infrastructure. A majority of players are signed regionally and will get drafted regionally because financially they can’t afford to stray outside of a teams set academy. So now you’re still are skewing talent you just have a fancy system.
Another reason why the international draft makes no sense is because without infrastructure these players have no form of recourse. They are subject to the proverbial gun. Take my money or go home. So it creates a major injustice. Draft allotments are going to be nowhere close to those in the rule 4 draft because they are 16 years old. So now you have given the owners license to hand out whatever messily form of compensation and provided international players with less protection. The key word is Infrastructure without that the international draft fixes nothing it’s just smoke and mirrors.
MLB needs to have ONE draft.
Players who want to play in MLB should have to register for the draft. This would help on a few levels. No wasted picks on kids who are going to college or Cubans or Japanese, etc players who won’t come over for years.
Players who registered for a draft and went undrafted then become UFA’s.
Done.
Countries with organized professional baseball leagues are never going to be part of the MLB draft. If Japan and Korea were part of the MLB drafting system, all the best players from those countries would end up over here, and those leagues would be decimated. Protecting the sport in those countries is why we have the posting system. If trade relations with Cuba are ever normalized, a similar system will likely be adopted for Cuban players.
player from countries where organized high school baseball doesn’t exist… which is pretty much everywhere but the US, Canada and the asian countries, would have no chance in heII of getting drafted before the 20th round if they were all in one pool. because by the time those players reach 18, they’re already probably 3 to 4 years of development behind even the high schoolers available in the draft, and so would wind up getting pretty much nothing in terms of signing bonuses
couple that with the fact that they’d have no negotiating leverage because college is a out of the question for 99% of them… yeah, watch them all start playing soccer instead, where all their hard work may actually allow them to feed their families one day, because baseball there’s no money to be made in baseball anymore.
the international draft is and never was about fairness. to the teams or the players. it’s not about competitive balance, or protecting the kids, or anything even remotely high-minded. it, just like the rule 4 draft, is all about artificially depressing entry level salaries for people who aren’t given a voice in the matter. it’s about getting prospects for pocket change to keep operating costs down.
The Rule 4 draft came about because of the uneven flow of talent into the league, because the top few teams bought everybody. It was always a huge problem. That’s why they went with bonus baby rules – trying to say to teams that if you’re going operate like that and build your system by out-spending everyone, at least carry the players on your roster instead of overloading your minor leagues.
It’s silly to say the draft was about artificially suppressing salaries without at least acknowledging the existing system, or nearly-complete lack thereof was artificially inflating salaries – by design, by the richest owners.
Well said!
the draft spending pool limits that currently exist are only there because the bonuses being demands by the top picks were exceeding 10 million dollars. If a team exceeds a certain artificial salary cap for the players it drafts, it gets penalized
Those rules exist not to spread the wealth, but to cap signing bonuses and make the players cheaper to acquire. how much they’re actually worth plays no part in it.
it’s silly to say the draft isn’t about cost control these days, because it clearly is.
If the rule 4 draft were truly about spreading the even flow of talent, players would be taken based on their talent not in due part because they are cheap college seniors which can be signed cheaply , because they lack leverage,in the early rounds to maximize the overall potential of their pool without paying the full bonus slot for high upside high school seniors.
At heart the draft is exactly about regulating the flow of talent into the league, and it certainly reduces the effect of money on the process to an extent – but it does not remove it entirely nor was I attempting to suggest it did. But it’s other variables that drive the pool management strategies you refer to, not the presence of a draft itself. I’d say the variables are primarily the financial differences between teams (which are dramatic), but also the scope and nature of a baseball draft picking players in a five year range from HS seniors to college seniors to fill out the biggest minor league system in sports by a huge margin.
As far as when the draft was established, suppression of salaries was collateral damage in dealing with the longstanding problem of the richest teams dominating the player market.
Get the hawgs with the dawgs
How about some form of a bonus baby rule for international signings? You can sign them for however the hell much you want but they must go straight onto the active roster if it’s over a certain threshold.
I’m more with giving a team a certain “rolling amount” for older (Cuban) free agents. They can spend ($40 million over 4 years, or whatever.) After they’ve spent theirs, they are out of luck for the rest of the time period. And the other teams can still spend.
Younger free agents need development. They need time in the eight levels of the minor leagues.
Teams/owners should realize the value of scouting and developing. Those that don’t, I have no empathy for.
The better pool-exempt players are able to command 40-man spots through market forces. Forcing active roster decisions would be breaking completely new ground in this era … not sure I see how that would make much sense or even really be workable.
Anyway, the issue of veteran Cuban players is not going to be an issue for much longer. It’s really just a small, unique area that has led people to propose solutions in search of an actual, ongoing issue that doesn’t (or at least won’t) exist. There are still going to be established players coming from Japan and Korea, but those guys are under a completely different system.
This is all about 16-year-olds from poor Latin American countries and whether they should be subject to a draft (with a resulting loss of choice and, in all likelihood, further depressed earning power) or instead continue to be limited by existing bonus pool limitations that already suppress their bonuses.
Assuming normalization of trade relations with Cuba, the uniqueness of the situation doesn’t go away so much as it probably morphs into something closer to the Korean or Japanese system, with the Cuban government posting players and collecting the posting fees.
Interesting point. Movement towards normalization was harshly criticized when Obama did it, but many Republicans were (silently) relieved. It’s still politically fraught.
You bet. I wonder what MLB’s position is on trade normalization with Cuba. At the moment they have sort of the both of best worlds. Any player who can escape the island becomes a free agent who goes to to highest bidder. Hard to imagine that the teams would be happier dealing with the Cuban government as an intermediary and only for the players the government decides they will allow to leave. This could well be only the players who will fetch the largest price.
Even if they work it out in time, this is concerning for when more major topics get discussed in future cba deals
That’s true, they could just kick the can down the road for another year and resolve none of the outstanding issues leaving nobody really happy and setting up potentially a bigger confrontation later.
Have been a Yankees fan since 77. If there is another stoppage? I’m finished with sports.
Ahh nothing like rich owners who make millions off people like us year after year and players who make millions and millions to play a game fighting over money.
I have zero sympathy for either side in this matter and to me it seems like this play by the commish is nothing more than a way to garner support and make the players seem uncompromising
Damn shame. After all the attention that this last WS brought to MLB…
MLB is frustrated with MLBPA “foot-dragging”. Interesting posturing. MLB want something big–an International Draft. They are offering something small that impacts only a very few players–the QO. When the ask and the give are a little closer, maybe there won’t be so much foot-dragging.
Let’s be honest, the agents are behind most of this “strife”.
They’ve been taken out of the equation with the new slot-based draft, and now they don’t want to lose the international free agent windfall.
Amen, Boras has been having his nose in too many things lately in baseball. All of them are making plenty of money be thankful for what you have. This is supposed to be fun and entertaining
Scott Boras doesn’t make a dime off the IFA under the current system. The risk/reward is too bad for the big american agencies to make a profit off of. The trainer/agent ‘buscone’ system in place in central and south america operates completely independent of the agencies the established players use.
The only international players they represent are those who would be exempted from a draft system anyway.
so yeah, you may want to pick a more sensible scapegoat for your anger… like the owners, who’s empty threats kind of remind me of that scene in Blazing Saddles where Bart puts the gun to his own head….
Gotta believe the Super-Two issue is a deal-crusher. I can see the Agents and the owners getting locked up about this (No pun intended).
I’m hearing that some sort of international draft is necessary. No international draft. No Collective Bargaining Agreement.
Very sad.