Some hot stove tidbits from FOX Sports’ Ken Rosenthal in his latest Full Count video…
- The Nationals have yet to engage in serious talks with the Tigers about Justin Wilson or with the Athletics about Ryan Madson, though the relievers are “two of the Nationals’ prime bullpen targets.” There isn’t any indication yet that Detroit is open to moving Wilson, however, since the team is still in the race. If the Tigers do become sellers, however, they’ll get plenty of interest in the southpaw, who took over from Francisco Rodriguez as closer earlier this season. Wilson has a 2.67 ERA, 3.55 K/BB rate and 39 strikeouts over 27 innings.
- The Pirates aren’t likely to deal Andrew McCutchen if they feel they can contend, though Rosenthal reminds us that the Bucs dealt Mark Melancon last season despite being just three games out of a wild card spot. This season, it looks like Pittsburgh’s best path to the postseason is through the NL Central; the Bucs are just five games out of first place despite their 31-37 record (they’re 11.5 games back in the wild card race). Trading McCutchen also wouldn’t necessarily mean that the Pirates would give up hope of contending this year, as Rosenthal notes that the club actually played better after dealing Melancon before a swath of September injuries ruined their chances.
- The Cardinals are one of several teams that could be both buyers and sellers at the deadline. For instance, St. Louis could consider trading Lance Lynn (a pending free agent) and then replace him in the rotation with one of the organization’s several young arms. After missing all of 2016 due to Tommy John surgery, Lynn has rebounded to post a 2.69 ERA, 8.67 K/9 and 2.37 K/BB rate over 73 2/3 IP this season. Peripheral numbers (.207 BABIP, 86.5% strand rate) indicate that Lynn has perhaps been a bit fortunate, as his ERA indicators (4.75 FIP, 4.40 xFIP, 4.35 SIERA) are well above his actual 2.69 ERA.
- While plans could change if the Rangers fall out of the race, a Yu Darvish deadline trade seems pretty unlikely right now since the team is playing better. There are also longer-term considerations in play, as Texas wants to re-sign the star right-hander when Darvish hits free agency this winter and “the relationship between the Rangers and Darvish is deeper than most,” Rosenthal reports. There’s also the interesting wrinkle that Darvish’s presence could help the Rangers in their pursuit of Shohei Otani, as Otani idolizes Darvish.
If the Cardinals trade Lance Lynn, it’ll show you the GM and owners have no intention of doing anything but sell. Which I guess is expected now that it’s obvious this bunch can’t play as a team together.
I remember the yinzer whining after the Melancon trade. “If the Pirates wanted to win, they would have kept Melancon.”
Yeah, keeping him for two more months and then losing him for nothing and being stuck with Tony Watson as the closer this year instead of having one of the best young relievers in baseball for the next 5 years would have been the winning move, huh?
Trade Cutch. Period.
If they wanted to win last year they absolutely should have kept Melancon. Contenders don’t trade Major League contributors.
When you are a smaller budget team who can’t just replenish your roster on the free agent market you have to make those moves.
No you don’t! When you are trying to contend you keep your Major League contributors. Trading your closer in the middle of a playoff push is unacceptable.
A goal, along with being competitive, is adding long-term talent. It isn’t “just one” or “just the other”,.
If one of the other 29 offers you far more for a talent chip than you see them being worth to you over the next five seasons or so, a trade makes quite a bit of sense. Particularly, if your side is “drawing to an inside straight” in the post-season hunt that season.
Rivero was BETTER than Melancon last season, PLUS they still have him for several more seasons!
How in the world does that make any sense?
Because they got several years of Rivero for two months of Melancon, obviously the perception was that Melancon is the better player. Trading a better player for a worse player in the middle of a playoff push makes ZERO sense.
But just because fan perception that Melancon was better does not mean it was reality. The Pirates were not contending for a title even with Melancon still closing for them. The Bucs got offered the moon for Mark and they took it. Smart move. Glad the team took the offer.
Not fan perception. Team perception. If the Nats thought Rivero was better than Melancon they wouldn’t have traded several years of him for two months of Melancon. They wanted to go for a title last year and obviously thought that Melancon would help them more than Rivero in that endeavor.
Trading Melancon was absolutely a smart move for a selling team. But a selling team wouldn’t trade for Ivan Nova.
Win what? Did you forget about the Cubs? The Pirates finished the year with 0 of the 5 starters who began the year.
Unless Melancon was going to start twice a week and bat cleanup…
Meanwhile, Rivero is a BEAST.
One of the best trades in recent memory.
If they decided to sell because they thought they couldn’t catch the Cubs, that’s fine. But if you’re selling you don’t trade prospects (even marginal prospects) for Ivan Nova, who was a free agent at season’s end.
And no, the fact that they managed to re-sign Nova doesn’t change this in the slightest. That happened afterwards and was completely separate from the trade. He would have signed with the Pirates anyway.
I’m glad they run the team by making smart baseball moves, like acquiring an elite closer and a starter who is pitching like an ace, instead of following your nonsensical and dogmatic rules.
And your second paragraph ignores all logic and reality…why would Nova have magically signed in Pittsburgh?
In reality, they got him for nothing, he fell in love with the place and signed for half of what the market offered to stay.
But, I guess if they “wanted to win” they would have just lost their closer for nothing and kept the bum starter who was getting torched every 5 days for $13 million a year and NOT gotten the elite closer or starter they have for years going forward instead. Winning!
K.
WestCoastRyan just sounds so dumb right now
elite closer = streeeeeeetch
He has a fantastic ERA, but his peripherals, while good, are definitely not elite.
One trade was a smart baseball move for a buyer while the other was a smart baseball move for a seller. What exactly were the Pirates trying to do last July.
He would have signed in Pittsburgh because trading for him was not a prerequisite to signing him. No magic involved there.
He did not sign for half of what the market offered. The Pirates basically were the market for him this offseason. If they had not traded for him and offered the most money (which they did anyway) he still would have signed with them.
If they wanted to win last year they would have kept their closer (one of the best in baseball) AND traded for Nova. If they wanted to win later they would have traded Melancon, not traded for Nova, then just signed Nova in the offseason.
#getsmacked
Lol I sound dumb? You clearly have no idea what’s going on here. But idk what I was expecting from a Cardinals fan. Why don’t you go beat the Giants in October? Oh wait…
You should really stop digging.
The Pirates made their team much better. They won both trades HANDS DOWN.
This isn’t on paper or in theory, we have almost a full season sample size.
BUT…you say that they shouldn’t have made their team better because of Black and White Dogmatic Thought A or Black and White Dogmatic Thought B.
OK…
Even with the evidence that both moves worked out brilliantly, you assert that at least one of those moves should not have been made because they conflict with the simple and shallow rules you have stuck in your head.
….OK.
3rd in ERA, 3rd in WHIP, throws 102 from the left side with a change and a filthy slider.
E L I T E.
The pirates made three significant trades last year, The Melancon trade, I would say leaned to the pirates especially since Mark moved on. If Hearn also starts to turn it up some even more so.
The Jon Neise for Antonio, Pirates made off like bandits LOL. the pirates actually added salary here. If Antonio gets it together (assuming he ever plays again) and pitches a few quality innings sure fire pirates win.. but most likely won’t be with the team past the dead line. (either traded or released)
then the Liriano Trade, big loss for the pirates. here. Sure the two prospects sent are not A listers any more.. but they where decent. and they could’ve tried in the off season to trade him with out loosing prospects. Even with as bad as Liriano has been.. would be nice to have another lefty option (even with his price tag), also would also be nice to have another reasonable catching prospect behind Diaz.
Don’t give me that fudged math of It was Liriano or Freese, Hudson, etc.. it just doesn’t work… They had the budget available. and the money saved wasn’t as much as you would think.. especially since they offered to Hutchinson and added Antonio… really would have been nice to NOT sign Hudson anyway. If the player sent back was better or at least had more upside then maybe call it a push..
When you trade prospects for rentals, you always lose the trade. So the Pirates technically won the Melancon trade but lost the Nova trade. Them signing Nova happened afterwards and was completely irrelevant to the trade. They didn’t trade for several years if Nova. They traded for 2 months of Nova. Period. Then they signed him to a multi-year deal in free agency. Period. Trading for him was not a prerequisite to signing him. And although they technically won the Melancon trade because they got a decent reliever for one they were about to lose, downgrading your bullpen in the middle of a playoff race is not something smart contenders do.
You keep coming back and getting smacked back down with facts forwhomjoshbelltolls. That’s two arguments you’ve failed miserably at and I’m sure more delusional nonsensical drivel to come from you in the future.
Actually the they traded for him to see if they could reinvent him because if they couldn’t, they didn’t wanna sign him to a multi-year deal. So I wouldn’t say they’re completely irrelevant
I would agree if Cutch has substantial trade value. He doesn’t. We would probably have to pull a liriano type deal and give a way prospects to save money.
If he stays hot and the pirates continue to fall back someone might give an acceptable offer to work with closer to the dead line… but no one is going to do that now. Better off keeping him to the off season and buy him out if you have too.
Two things:
1. Trading McCutchen most certainly DOES mean the Pirates’ season is over. You don’t trade a guy like that in the middle of a playoff race! It’ll be 2014 Yoenis Cespedes all over again.
2. Trading Darvish doesn’t make him 1% less likely to sign with the Rangers in the offseason than if they keep him. If the Rangers trade him then offer him the most money this offseason he’s not going to punish them by signing with someone else for less money.
News flash!! Pirates are not going to contend for a title with Cutch so it they can make a deal for a good return, pull the trigger. Loved watching Cutch play but if you can improve the roster in a year that you will not have a chance, do it. If the Pirates knew that they would be without Marte and Kang both, most likely he would have been gone last winter. In hindsight it may have,been a good thing that they did not pull the trigger because if,he keeps up what he has been doing recently, the Bucs should get a better return at the deadline or this offseason.
You obviously have a Kindergarten level of reading comprehension. I said that the Pirates should not trade McCutchen if they ARE contending. You don’t trade the face of the franchise in the middle of a playoff race. If they don’t think they are going to contend then yeah, trading McCutchen makes plenty of sense. But only then.
And I said they are not contending this year so if they get a decent offer then pull the trigger. You missed where I said that had the Bucs known that they would not have Kang and Marte, they would have probably taken what the Nats were offering knowing that they would not have been contending this year. Since they thought they were contending, they held out for the moon. They did not get the moon so they held on to Cutch.
This thread indicates that the Pirates don’t necessarily believe that they are out of it this year. I agree with you that they probably are but if they trade McCutchen, then their season is over.
And they held onto him cuz he was coming off a down year. His value will be higher at the deadline if he keeps doing what he’s been doing as of late.
lance lynn. who wants a pitcher that throws 100 pitches thru 5 innings, or less?
See Fransisco Liriano. The may have to package some prospects with him to move Lynn like the Pirates did with Frankie
No they won’t. They’ll keep him for the rest of the year before trading prospects along with him
Hold him through the season. If the pirates are going to have any hope of finishing .500 Cutch doing well will have to be a part of it. If Cutch bombs you can buy out his option if you have too, but if he does well then he has rebuilt some of his value. And you might be able to pick up a top(ish) prospect.or three.
Look, Marte isn’t hear for another month or so and on the off chance the do make the playoffs Marte cannot participate, Polanco is shakey at best and our next best out fielders are infielders with our top OF prospect stuck in AAA and not performing all that well (so far)..
right now they need cutch to compete.. not contend.. compete. If he heats up and the rest of the lineup/pitching does the minimum of what we expect they have a shot.. its a longish one.. but its there.