The Pirates have agreed to send top pitching prospect Shane Baz to the Rays as the player to be named later in last month’s Chris Archer blockbuster, reports John Dreker of PiratesProspects.com (via Twitter). That’ll make Tampa Bay’s total haul for Archer an impressive combination of Austin Meadows, Tyler Glasnow and Baz, who was the Pirates’ first-round selection in the 2017 draft.
Still just 19 years of age, Baz was among the top-ranked pitching prospects in the 2017 draft and signed with the Pirates for a $4.1MM bonus that was about $70K over his slot value at the time. At the time of the draft, Baz was the top prospect from the state of Texas and drew praise for a plus heater that could reach 98 mph as well as potential plus offerings in his cutter, slider and curveball. While No. 2 overall pick Hunter Greene was the top pitching prospect in the draft, Baseball America wrote in ’17 that Baz “has the ingredients to surpass Greene going forward due to his more potent breaking pitches.”
Baz is clearly still years away from impacting the Rays at the big league level. He spent his 2017 debut season pitching for the Pirates’ Rookie-level affiliate in the Gulf Coast League before moving to the Rookie-level Appalachian League in 2018. To this point, Baz has demonstrated the ability to miss bats but also some shaky control — as one might expect for a raw high school power pitcher making the transition to pro ball. Through 45 1/3 innings this season, Baz has logged a 3.97 ERA with 10.7 K/9 against 4.6 BB/9 with a whopping 62 percent ground-ball rate.
While Baz is as long-term a piece as the Rays could have received in their return for Archer, he adds another elite prospect to a rapidly improving Rays system. Jim Callis and Jonathan Mayo of MLB.com ranked Baz as the game’s No. 95 prospect on their recent midseason update, while Kiley McDaniel and Eric Longenhagen of Fangraphs pegged him 110th overall. Baz will need to further refine his control and gain experience against more advanced competition, but he’s already a high-ceiling arm who could quickly improve his stock with improved control and/or a strong showing when he ultimately reaches full-season ball.
Archer has gotten off to a shaky start for the Pirates since being traded, though he’s made all of two appearances to date. The inclusion of Baz undoubtedly stings for general manager Neal Huntington and his staff, who have to be disheartened to see the Cardinals surging back into the mix with a 6-game win streak and an overall 8-2 showing in their past 10 contests. Be that as it may, however, the Pirates’ acquisition of Archer was as much about the 2019 season and beyond as it was their pursuit of a Wild Card berth or a more unlikely NL Central crown in 2018. Archer gives the club an affordable mid-rotation option at worst and a potential front-of-the-rotation piece at best, and he comes with a contract that even the cost-conscious Pirates can afford for three years beyond the current season.
As was the case with the Cubs’ acquisition of Jose Quintana in 2017, that affordable contract proved immensely valuable on the trade market and netted a premium package of talent, even neither pitcher’s recent baseline run-prevention numbers were especially impressive. The Archer trade, like the Quintana trade before it, further serves as another data point that more traditional numbers (i.e. ERA) aren’t nearly as influential when evaluating players in this type of trade as they once were. For the Bucs, the allure of Archer’s K/BB numbers, his superior fielding-independent metrics and the fact that he can be affordably teamed with Jameson Taillon atop the rotation for years to come were enough to part with a package of three high-quality pieces — two of whom (Meadows and Glasnow) are able to immediately contribute to the Rays.
Wow. That is a huge return for Archer, or anybody.
Trade looks better and better for the Pirates
For the Pirates? You sure about that?
My bad, meant to say Rays lolllllll
If anything, assume it was sarcasm or something. But in all honesty, I meant to say the Rays. Still a bit tired.
Archer is the creation of a fawning media and a padding of the right stats for the geeks.
He has hardly been the top-tier pitcher he’s been made out to be for a few years now. For example, I’d happily take the Indians #4 starter – Mike Clevinger – over him both for the remainder of the 2018 season, and beyond. Younger, and pitching for 1/4 of Archer’s salary.
That trade is going to haunt the Pirates for years, and at some point may well cost Neal Huntington his job.
I firmly believe the hype surrounding archer is due to his name. His stuff definitely can’t be the reason…
Yeah way to go out on a limb there Samuel, of course you would want a younger pitcher with more control with less salary with stats that compare to the higher salary guy. Stay obvious captain obvious
So that justifies making an awful trade?
Is Archer the missing piece that catapults the Pirates to the WS in 2018-19?
That team is at least 5 quality players from being a real championship contender, and they just traded 3 possible (low cost) pieces for 2020 to get a guy that was a nice #2 starter 3 years ago. One that people thought would grow into an ace. Instead he is a #3…..and as with Gio Gonzalez this year, when those guys run out of gas, it gets ugly.
For the Pirates? Meadows, Glansnow and Baz is a huge return.
hey brewcrew08..cardinals still out of it?
Last time I looked they wouldn’t be in the playoffs today right? So to answer your question yes they are still out of it.
lol good thing the season doesn’t end today….don’t be scared because your team isn’t looking so hot…three game series coming up
5 of your 6 straight wins are against the Marlins and KC. Take it easy there killer. Beating two teams that have a combined 161 losses isn’t impressive.
13-4 since 7/27 with an 8-3 record against the Cubs/Pirates/Rockies/Nationals probably tells the story better than 5 of 6 vs. Miami and KC (which were on the road).
Best record in th NL since the all star break…with 8 games against the cubs and 4 against the Rockies…so they beat teams that they were supposed to beat…I believe you said they were done…2 games out from the Brewers who have been in a decline…has the second half skid started already started….no pitching finally catching up to the Brewers
to little to late. they really hurt their future with this one. all those opportunities they had to make the playoffs and they trade when they got a crappy team
It has been downhill ever since they didn’t sign Happ.
What organization gives an extension to a GM and Mgr whose season record is going south each year?
You mean the Rays as we watch Archer struggle and Glasnow impress. Now Baz? Wow.
lol. its looks great for the rest of the division.
Exactly lol. I couldn’t imagine the Brewers willing to give up a package like Hiura, Burnes and Ray and that still possibly not beating the Pirates offer.. Huge overpay in my eyes.
ya as a reds fan I was so happy to see them dump the farm for an overrated arm. they won’t even make the playoffs. lol. reds and brewers are the rising and pirates and cards are falling. Cubs are about to peak.
Meant to say Rays, sorry guys
The rays finally robbed someone of a trade
Pretty impressive regardless of how much Meadows/Glasnow’s prospect pedigrees have diminished.
Meadows was actually holding his own in his first 50 games in the bigs though.
Oh dear lord the rays fleeced Pittsburgh.
Wow! That’s… wow!
Said it with just Glasnow and Meadows return, Rays killed it. Now you add the 2017 first round pick to an already lopsided trade…geesh
Kind of nuts that the Pirates traded Gerrit Cole for 87 cents and a pre-chewed wad of bubble gum then turned around and gave up Glasnow, Meadows and Baz for a similar (or arguably not) pitcher.
Yea… he has an extra year of control. I really don’t think that one year makes up all the difference in the value of the two packages…
Except Archer has 2 extra years of control, not 1.
Archer salary is locked in too isn’t it. Cole arb eligible and would have cost much much more. Salary always the thing people on here over look on here.
You kidding right? That makes my day pretty sad…
Just insane cost the Pirates paid
They better hope Archer can relearn that Sinker he used to throw (but gave up completely in 2015 for a reason) and previously had so much success off of! Only chance they have of him being a respectable starter. Initial results on it don’t look promising at all though, and without it he is a 1 pitch guy hitters can pound with ease.
I’m a Bucco and a Rays fan and I’m having major mixed emotions.
That’s a great return! and the return you get when a lot of teams are competing for the same player! Hopefully we will one day hear what other teams were willing to offer for Archer.
I’m sure not as much as we gave up. Archer better be 5+ WAR next 3 years
Wow….wow…..Just wow…..The Pirates are the worst team in MLB history when it comes to trades. I thought for a moment maybe they saw something in Meadows that would suggest he wasn’t going to be that good,ans we know what Glasnow upside is but adding Baz just about guarantees TB is gonna get a least one serviceable MLB player and maybe even a good one….wow
Are you really clueless???
When the trade originally happened, I thought “Well I’m not too happy we gave up Meadows, but I guess you have to give something to get something”, and I didn’t really think it was that much of an overpay. I think we’ve crossed that line of overpay now that we have to give up Meadows AND Baz.
Wellll…..maybe. Meadows still has all of one good month in the bigs, and Baz is at least three years away. It’s a potential overpay, but the Pirates still have a proven starter and the Rays have three lottery tickets.
A lottery ticket prospect is a prospect that doesn’t have too much potential. I do not consider either Meadows or Baz “lottery tickets”. Meadows and Glasnow are justifiable. Austin showed some decent stuff in the majors, but was the odd man out when it came to sorting the outfield, and Glasnow has struggled with control problems time and time again, and never really looked confident when pitching, but Baz? Why would they give up their first round draft pick for a player that’s never really been a true ace? I mean he’s shown the promise and potential to be that, but still.
This is going to make Arizona’s trade for Shelby Miller look reasonable.
Naaaa…..don’t think so. Miller never provided any value.
Well to be fair neither has Archer
How is over 1,000 innings of 3.70 ERA pitching not of any value?
Well…based on the context of the above conversation, it’d seem he means for Pittsburgh, since you know, shelby miller provided value before he was traded as well (he actually has after the trade too, just very little). It’s still obviously early for archer, but the comment isn’t incorrect based on fWAR.
Ouch. That one still hurts. And after yesterday day, Arizona giving up Toussaint hurts just as much
This is the trade that GMs pray for. What an absolute great deal for the Rays. It was great before this was even announced
More over Shelby Miller trade!
As a Padre fan, am I ever glad the Padres backed out of the Archer sweepstakes when they did. What a return for the Rays.
Yeah seriously. Urias Gore and Mejia will provide more value to the padres than archer would have.
Wow…huge overpay by the Pirates. They have a solid outfield so they could justify dealing Meadows for a controllable starter, and Glasnow has been a little volatile in the past, but adding Baz just seems like a lot.
To clarify, I thought Meadows and Glasnow seemed like a little too much, but if you play devil’s advocate it could possibly seem reasonable. I can’t justify adding Baz even if I’m playing devil’s advocate.
I looked at some of Baz’s numbers this year and while he has had some SO he has had some walks too. Not like he was blowing teams a way in low A short season ball. He could be a steal for the Rays or he could just be a name in history if he never pans out as he goes up the ladder.
But his value right now is perceived to be pretty high. So, no matter what happens down the road, Huntington traded away a valuable asset on top of the two previously known players.
Baz could have conceivably been traded for any number of other high impact players on his own.
It’s not necessarily that they traded Baz that seems crazy, it’s that they traded him in addition to trading the other two guys. If Baz was the headliner then it wouldn’t be a bad deal for Pittsburgh, but him and the other two guys seems like a ton to give up.
This is a flat overpay, I just can’t see how it required this much to get Archer. Meadows, Glasnow and a semi throw in would’ve been fine, but now the Pirates have no real upside pitching in the system after Keller. This screams desperation from Huntington.
Have to disagree completely. The Miller trade worked for Arizona; Inciarte and Swanson have been “meh”, Blair completely washed out.
This looks like the same kind of deal, where at the end of the day, the Bucks got a solid #3, maybe #2, for some “guys”.
Inciarte at least won a gold glove and has had stretches of being a decent hitter. Swanson hasn’t developed as quickly as they thought, but he still has plenty of time. Blair seems like a bust though, so I’ll give you that one.
A solid #3, maybe a #2? Miller hasn’t even pitched like a serviceable #5 for ARI. He has been absolutely awful.
Rose-tinted glasses much?
He’s saying that Baz could end up being a 2 or 3 for Tampa, not that Miller has been a 2 or 3 for Arizona
He’s actually saying the Pirates got a “solid #3, maybe a #2” in Archer. He’s implying that’s what Arizona got in Miller. The only reference to Baz was calling him just a guy.
Oh yeah, you’re right…I didn’t realize there were so many ways to misinterpret that hahaha
People here seem drastically underrated a every day SS. Swanson might not ever be a above average hitter but having a cheap average SS for 6 years quite valuable floor of a guy.
There is zero argument that it “worked out” for Arizona, considering what Shelby has (or more accurately, hasn’t) given them.
Dansby still has plenty of time to make good on his promise, but even if he doesn’t Ender has given us 2 gold gloves, was 2nd in the NL in hits last year, and is among the league leaders in SBs. That’s not “meh” by any standards.
While everyone involved in that trade minus Ender has underperformed, the Diamondbacks got essentially nothing out of that trade while Ender has put up 7.5 WAR for the Braves since the trade. How is that “working out” for Arizona?
As a general rule any trade analysis containing the word meh shouldn’t be taken seriously.
By fWAR,
Miller – 0.9
Swanson – 1.6
Inciarte – 7.5.
If Inciarte and Swanson have been “meh”, then Miller has been Meh-er.
And the Pirates make the exact kind of trade the pirates can’t afford to make……Maybe the Rays made them pay extra for gifting them dickerson
As a Rays fan, I loved and miss Cory Bam, Bam Dickerson. They DFA’d him cause he cost to much for our team. If you put Archer and Dickerson together….The Archer trade is justified in my opinion. Cory is an All-Star that we should have tried to keep!
They could have gotten Cole and Morton for that haul.
You really think the Stros would trade both for 3 prospects?
Absolutely. You should think that way too. 🙂
Why did they wait to announce him? What made them decide who they wanted in two weeks?
Prob deciding between 2 or 3 players and they took their time and decided on Baz.
Ouch.
We knew the PTBNL wasn’t Keller or Hayes or Swaggerty, so the only player that would hurt was Baz.
Any of those 3 would have hurt. We know it could not be Swaggerty because he could not be traded till next season. Still an ouch but not as bad as losing Keller or Hayes. Who knows if Baz will turn out. He has given up some walks this season to go with the SO and wins. Will see how he improves as he moves up. Glasnow looked like he was done as a starter in Pittsburgh but looked good in the pen. Will see if he can keep it going or if he will regress. I liked Meadows but the Pirates seem to have several OF in his mold still in the system. This deal may not hurt as much as one may think for the Pirates.
its brilliant. after years of pirates fans complaining about their front office never making moves, they’ll now be begging their FO never makes a trade ever again.
The “fans” and media have complained for years that Huntingdon hordes his prospects and never goes “all in”.
Well…
Well the fans were hoping that they’d trade their prospects wisely. Not throw a handful of young players at one guy who hasn’t been too impressive the last few seasons.
See below. They wanted the Pirates to have traded Bell, Glasnow and supposedly Meadows at least for Quintana ahd he is no better than Archer. That would have been a way steeper cost than Archer.
I always thought giving up Bell AND Glasnow for Quintana was an overpay. I was ok at the time if they traded off Austin Meadows, but The PIrates didn’t really have a long term option at first base.
The Pirates are a charity organization. They like to give away their best prospects for nada to tick off the fans.
They still do not have a long term option at first base except for maybe Will Craig in AA ball.
And Bell isn’t the long term solution?
Yes he is and that is my point why they,would not trade him in a package,for,Quintana. It he were gone, no one else to,take his place. However, that did not stop the local Pgh spots media and their listeners from saying the Bucs were stupid not to trade what the Sox wanted for Quintana. If they would have done that it would have been ugly at 1b right now
Did the Pirates hire Dave Stewart? Why in the world would a small market team agree to trade all of their best prospects for a #3 starter? Especially when they are barely still alive this year anyway. Colossal waste of resources. He’s only been worth 0.3 WAR this season, barely above replacement level.
Funny how everyone in Pittsburgh complained when Quintana was available and the rumor was that the Sox wanted Bell Glasnow and at least Meadows and no one could understand why Huntington would not do it.. Not one prospect should have been untouchable. That would have been a bigger cost to the Pirates and no better of a pitcher in return. Why the complaining now??
As a Sox fan, thank you Huntington for not doing that. We’re more than happy with Eloy and Cease so far.
The Rays rarely lose these kind of deals. I’m not sold on Glasnow or Meadows and Baz is still a long way to the majors. But that is simply too much value given up for Archer.
Holy overpay Batman!
I’d expect that kind of return for deGrom, not Archer. That’s a head scratcher.
Thinking DeGrom would have cost even more. For Archer the Rays got an outfielder who has had a bunch of injury problems and not a huge power guy for an outfielder. Very nice player but not one you can’t live without. Glasnow has show flashes but wildly inconsistent. Has had a couple of chances in the bigs with the Bucs but never capitalized on the chances. Baz is a big unknown. Has some wins but almost 4.00 ERA in the lower of the 2 short season Low A ball teams. Has had some SO but also some walks. Not a can’t miss type of guy but a lottery type pick that you might strike it rich on. Is it a lot of potential? Yeah. Potential that can be replaced or already have similar players? Yes.
I think you are selling Meadows a little short. Sweet swing. Reminds me of Benitendi.
Austin Meadows will never be Andrew Benintendi. Before the trade, Meadows has never batted better than .260 at Triple A. He was only ever brought up to the majors because the Pirates has two injuries in the outfield, and once pitchers figured him out, he cooled down to .230 over the course of the month of June. He is still a project.
He very well could end up a 4th OF. Glasnow is almost a sure bet to turn into something. Baz is a pitching prospect. To me, this is exactly the right return for Archer.
A first round pick is hardly what I would call a lottery type pick. Obviously no pick is a guarantee, but a first rounder is as close as it gets.
End of the day no matter where he’s drafted, he’s still a pitching prospect, and they all have a way higher propensity to flame out. They’re one arm injury away at all times. That risk alone makes them not as valuable as many prospect hounds want them to be.
Yet you say Glasnow, a pitcher, is almost sure to turn into something. All pitchers are one arm injury away at all times….
All that just to finish 3rd of 4th in their division.
Well…look on the bright side, at least the Pittsburgh Penguins lucked out with both Crosby and Malkin
This and the Kela deals were more for next season than for this one.
You can build for next year -during- this year, you know.
Why pay the premium for half a season you aren’t gonna use? Especially for someone who is a project themselves.
Archer is not a rental. He is under control until after the 2021 season. That control drove the cost
That’s not my point. Why pay for a half a year that you’re not gonna use. If you think you want to upgrade for next year, so do then. Even if Archer is not available after this deadline, he hasn’t been so good as to irreplaceable or an upgrade.
Rays definitely made out in this deal. Was ok with deal until they gave up Baz. Overpaid for sure
The Rays are the most surprising team in the majors. How have they accomplished what they have done this year and to them pull off a trade like this. Smartest front office and best manager in baseball.
You mean that they traded a guy half a year after everyone told them to, makes them geniuses? They got fair market value for a high value pitcher. This is a total win for both sides, but I don’t think they’re smartest in baseball, at all. They USED to be, but not anymore. Weird comment, this is not a lopsided trade unless you absolutely hate Chris Archer, and most baseball fans do not.
I’d argue this is a lopsided trade unless you absolutely overrate Chris Archer, and most baseball fans do.
Disagree. Glasnow didnt do anything for Pittsburgh. Meadows showed signs but has a history of injuries and batting .260 and we’ll have to wait 4 years to see about Baz.
The Rays FO did their home work and traded Archer at the exact time it should have. With no other Top of the line pitcher availible, Pittsburg had to overpay. The Rays received an astounding haul! This Glasnow has been lights out! and the others have potential! Why couldn’t Searage fix Cole and Glasnow? Maybe PC overrated? We got rid of Hickey when he was grabbing to many headlines and not able to get Snell on track. You might want to look into that.
The Pirates gave up a pitcher that is in year 2 now that hasn’t even made low “A” ball yet. Chill out it is not Pedro Martinez.
He’s 19 and been in pro ball for barely a full calendar year so you can’t really judge him by what level he’s pitching at. Also, some teams are more conservative with where they assign their prospects.
I understand he is young and has talent and may be a star in the mlb. What I’m saying is he has a long way to go before we can say this trade was lopsided. From everyone reaction it seems like Baz is already a proven starter in triple A or higher. What we know so far is he was a great high school pitcher.
prospects have value even if they aren’t a proven starter in triple A (what a weird milestone to judge by). If you think that the value he has to other teams + meadows and glasnow is less than Archer, that’s fine, but that’s a different argument.
Exactly, and pitching prospects flame out more often than not, they are extremely volatile. Moving that kind of risk for a guy like Archer, who helps you now in -any- way, is a no-brainer.
All prospect flame out more often than not.
Very to-be-named-later nice pickup for Archer.
I don’t like this. None of the guys are a sure thing but Baz… yeah. geez.. to top 100s and one former top 100.. makes me nervous… archer better step up soon.
But really if archer can look like a solid middle rotation guy…. Tailon, Archer, Williams, Musgrove, kingham, keller, kuhl… really next few years they have some solid options and time to refill the farm with pitchers they just swapped in Baz Hearn and Glasnow.
Wow, that is one steep price to pay for a pitcher that has been rather mediocre the last few years. On the positive side, the Pirates have had tremendous success taking pitching retreads and making them solid starters. They’ll need to do the same with Archer if they’re ever going to come out ahead on this deal. Based on the price, I’m glad my Cardinals stayed away.
Will we be able to compare this trade to the Shelby Miller one from a few years ago?
I might be the only one who thinks this is fair value. Meadows is pretty overrated, Glasnow has the highest ceiling and Baz is still a pitching prospect, which by level of flameout aren’t as valuable as most (who overvalue prospects in general) are currently rating them.
Archer is also a lot better than his numbers and Pirates had to outbid the entire league for him, and this is what it cost. I don’t see this altering the Pirates current trajectory at all, other than Archer being a big piece for their ’19 and ’20 contending teams. But even if he blows out, the Pirates aren’t handcuffed at all by this. Win win for both here.
I am with you 100% justin.
i don’t pretend to understand the pirates, if i was a rays fan i’d be really happy with the package chosen.
I like the trade package for the Rays now. Good move.
I don’t get Pirates fans;
They’ve been screaming for the past 3 years the Huntington and Co. wouldn’t have the balls and trade top prospects for a frontline pitcher like Quintana, but when he finally did trade a few, they scream that the front office overpaid.
THIS IS THE NEW REALITY PEOPLE. Trading has become quid pro quo; you don’t get talent unless you give up talent in return.
Archer has the tools to become a #1 SP and having him on the team at a good price for multiple years allows the Pirates to keep the talent they have and possibly build around the core they have now.
Or Bob Nutting will just pocket whatever surplus is leftover; I think fans are more inclined to believe the latter.
Would have made a lot more sense to acquire someone like this a few years ago when they were better situated to contend for the playoffs.
exactly
Mmm boy- whipped cream on top, too? Why Pittsburgh, you shouldn’t have!
I’m a Pirate fan but I had to laugh at this one.
NH said that it would sting,and he was right.I think that a big reason that they made this trade is to try to get the fans excited about their new pitcher.They did not think they would contend this year and they were basically right.I think that they were tired of waiting for Meadows and Glasnow and saw a chance to add a frontline pitcher.
We will not know for at least three years who won this trade.I think it a high price to pay for a number three pitcher.But I think that most will agree that the Pirates hopefully should come out on top for the next two years,and that is probably what their goal was.
One thing that many people aren’t accounting for is that you can simultaneously lose a trade and be a better team for it.
The Pirates might have given up too much in a strict asset sense, but they are a better team today and for the next few years. And the opportunity to get such players (Kela, as well) might not have been there for them in the future.
With Keller soon joining Taillon, Archer, Musgrove, Williams, Kingham, Holmes, Kuhl, etc. the Pirates have young pitching covered for a while.
I’d agree with your post if Archer was someone who was a true difference maker, but he’s not, or at least hasn’t been lately. There are certainly times when you have to jump early to get what you want, I’d just disagree that this was the time or the person to do it for.
Archer doesn’t have to be an ace to make them a better team. He has to be better than Nick Kingham. He’s much better. Kela is much better than the RP he displaced. They are a discernibly better team after those trades.
You can argue that they overpaid for those upgrades, so be it. But who else was available ? Gausman? I’d much rather bet on Archer. DeGrom? That package doesn’t get DeGrom and even if it did, his contract doesn’t fit the rest of the team’s timeline. Most of the Pirates players (they will likely use rookies at 2B and SS next year) will need another year of development to really contend instead of just competing. Archer fits that timeline.
They took Ivan Nova from the scrap heap and turned him into a useful rotation member. Took JA Happ from the scrap heap and turned him into a near star. Archer is 9th all time in K/9 (ahead of #10, Nolan Ryan) and 4th since 2014 in K’s (ahead of #5, Clayton Kershaw). Not an ace, but he’s worth the shot.
Ok, then if Archer doesn’t have to be an ace to make them better, neither does any other pitcher they would acquire. If that’s your thought process, then why give up this much, now, to acquire him and not just wait. I’m sure there will be other pitchers better than kingham to acquire next year, if they find themselves wanting to do so. Especially if you want to continue emphasizing how they can take scrap heap pitchers and make them serviceable. If you believe they can do that, then wouldn’t it make more sense to try that? It’s not like they are a lock (and probably wont even be projected) to make the playoffs next year. You can argue with projections, but it’s just to demonstrate the point that this seems like an unnecessary move, made by a team that isn’t a clear cut contender, at a very weird time.
Again, 4th in K’s since 2014 and 9th ALL TIME in K rate.
You are talking about him as if he’s Kevin Correia.
Archer has devolved into a two pitch pitcher. If he fails to add a third pitch back into his mix, then this trade will not look good. If he does, he can be a high end starter for years.
And making pitchers “serviceable” can only get you so far. With Archer, they have a chance to get him back to great.
The chance to acquire him was now. If they didn’t get him now, he’d be a Padre or a Brave or a Yankee or a Dodger or a Brewer. And there is currently no one else who fits their needs likely to be available. So, now was that time.
As a Rays fan, My only question is why your Pitching coach couldn’t get the quality out of Gerrit Cole and Now Glasnow? Though it’s early this Glasnow kid has #1 pitcher potential written all over him!
Cole was miffed that the Pirates would not give him more money after his 2015 ace like year.He was a hot head who has cooled down now that he has matured and is with a very good team.He had some minor arm troubles and the Pirates were not all that inspiring after subtracting more than adding after their 98 win season in 2015.
Glasnow overpowered everyone in AAA even though his walk rate was somewhat high.Ml’s could hit his fastball if they knew it was coming,and he even got wilder.He could not last more than a couple of innings in his starts until he imploded.In addition,he seemed easily frustrated and confused.This somewhat changed this year when they put him in the bullpen,but he would still have bad games.They tried sending him back to AAA in 2016 and 2017,but he would come back the same.He is a #1 talent easily.I would wait more than a couple of weeks before I proclaim him to be a finished product though.
In response, Glasnow going a few innings is not a problem for the Rays, since we utilize bull pen days and can start him and let him pitch only a few innings. However after our pitching coach tweeked him a little, he’s been light out for 5 innings and our plan is to slowly streach him out. As you say, lets see what next year brings but sometimes the Pitching coach is the problem. Yours (like we had with Jim Hickey) .might have seen better days.
I would state it a little differently.Sometimes a new set of eyes sees things a little differently.One thing that the Rays do extremely well is develop pitchers.You are correct about the starting innings philosophy at this point in time of course,but five innings is very good for Glasnow because he has never gone that far while pitching well before.
I think that the Pirates gave him every chance,and whether it was their pitching philosophy,or missing something,he never quite got it together.I do not think that Searage has lost it,as he did turn around Happ,Liriano,and Nova,but perhaps he is better with older pitchers.
Glasnow is the one guy who I hated to give up as he is a super star talent and the small market teams cannot afford to have or keep them.I think that he would have eventually blossomed in Pittsburgh as they would not have given up on him but to the Rays credit they were adamant about getting the three fine young ballplayers that they got for Archer.
If i was with the Pirates, I would analyze thier PC, or add to searage someone who should work the younger pitchers. I only say this cause we had an exceptionl PC in Jim Hickey who couldn’t guide our ace Blake Snell.. Once we promoted Snyder, Snellzilla florished! Maybe as you say Archer was not reachable by our present PC and needs a mature analyst like Searage or Hickey was. As I’m sure you see, Pirates need someone for their younger pitchers. As for the Rays we never keep the players long enough. Oh! I believe this is a fair trade when you add my favorite player Cory Bam-Bam Dickerson we gave the Pirates for basically nothing.
The Dickerson trade was a steal in that he is a good player and the Pirates desperately needed to get rid of Hudson’s salary.I think that this was obvious from the start.Now the Pirates have to sign him to a medium range deal!
The Pirates do have several good young pitchers coming up but I do not know how much Searage had to do with them or whether their minor league instructors did.
It would not surprise me that,as you suggest,some pitching coaches are better with younger players.
Please keep in mind though that sometimes the timing may be the most important thing,and the pitcher may be on the verge of clear cut improvement where the new set of eyes and the new system puts him over the top.
yes but no good enough to win . they are a 500 team and not getting any better soon
Still in shock on this deal. Who trades away 3 of their top prospects for a pitcher I do not consider an ace? How much signing bonus money has these three received that has been just wasted? How come the Pirates don’t even get any top prospects when they trade away someone? Hopefuly Nutting and company is not caring about the future since he plans on selling. We can only wish!
Well, If you look at it as you received Archer and Dickerson for Gassnow, Meadows and Baz (2 all star players) it is much easier to accept. I miss Dickerson.
I see people mentioning Dickerson without mentioning Tristan Gray. 22 yo INF slugging .450 in the FSL is nothing to ignore.
It seems posters at this site don’t understand what small sample size means. Archer only has 3 starts to look at right now. He’s a 4 year investment.
I agree that this is a make up trade for Pittsburgh’s theft of Corey Dickerson from the Rays at the beginning of the year. Rays were able to save face after all…Glasnow alone is going to end up being as good, if not better than Archer. Meadows is a solid #4 OF with upside and Baz is a Top 100 prospect so the Rays won this deal big time! But when you factor in the Dickerson deal, this evens out quite well.