DECEMBER 6, 6:32pm: The trade has been announced. The Rays will acquire a player to be named later to go with Renfroe and Edwards, with the Padres picking up Pham and Cronenworth.
2:00am: It appears the Rays will also land another prospect in the deal, per Juan Toribio of MLB.com.
12:27am: The Padres will also acquire minor leaguer Jake Cronenworth in the trade, Dennis Lin of The Athletic reports. The 25-year-old Cronenworth enjoyed an eminently successful year at the Triple-A level in 2019, when he hit .334/.429/.520 with 10 HRs and 12 steals in 406 trips to the plate. Cronenworth’s primarily a middle infielder, but the 2015 seventh-rounder can also pitch. He put up 7 1/3 scoreless innings with nine strikeouts and four hits allowed at the minors’ highest level in 2019, though the righty hurler did surrender eight walks.
DECEMBER 5, 10:55pm: The teams have agreed to the trade, Bob Nightengale of USA Today tweets. However, it won’t be announced until medical reviews of all the involved players are completed Friday.
10:42pm: The Rays and Padres are deep into talks on a trade that would see Tampa Bay outfielder Tommy Pham and San Diego outfielder Hunter Renfroe switch clubs, per Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic and Jeff Passan of ESPN. The Rays would also land Single-A shortstop Xavier Edwards, while the Padres would pick up an unnamed prospect to go with Pham.
This is already the second major outfield trade of the winter for the Padres, who acquired Trent Grisham from the Brewers last week. Pham is far more proven than Grisham, as the former is coming off yet another outstanding season at the plate. The 31-year-old Pham, whose first full season came with the Cardinals in 2017, has somewhat quietly been among the majors’ most effective outfielders over the past three campaigns. He has totaled 13.6 fWAR, including 3.3 in 2019, dating back to his initial full season. Typically one to post high on-base percentages, Pham’s coming off a year in which he slashed .273/.369/.450 with 21 home runs and 25 stolen bases across 654 plate appearances.
In Pham, the Padres – led by under-fire general manager A.J. Preller – are getting a player with two years’ control remaining. Pham, who’s slated to earn a projected $8.6MM next season, will join Grisham, Manuel Margot, Wil Myers, Franchy Cordero and prospect Taylor Trammell as the Padres’ most prominent outfielders.
While Pham looks like an intriguing addition for the Padres, they’re giving up a powerful and affordable outfielder at the same time. Renfroe, soon to turn 28, entered the bigs as a first-round pick of the Padres in 2013. He has hit at least 26 homers in each season since debuting in earnest in 2017, including 33 this year, though injuries helped undermine him after a hot start in 2019. Renfroe wound up slashing .216/.289/.489 over 494 PA, and he earned elite marks in 998 innings divided among all three outfield positions (22 Defensive Runs Saved, 10.1 Ultimate Zone Rating).
Never a team to boast a high payroll, the Rays are saving quite a bit of money in this swap. Renfroe should only make around $3.4MM next season, which will be his first of four arbitration-eligible years. He’ll presumably accompany Austin Meadows and Kevin Kiermaier as the Rays’ starting outfielders in 2020, thus replacing free agent Avisail Garcia.
Along with Renfroe, the Rays are getting a quality farmhand in Edwards, a 2018 first-rounder whom FanGraphs ranked as the Padres’ 14th-best prospect in a loaded Padres system back in May. Eric Longenhagen and Kiley McDaniel wrote then that Edwards “is a high-effort offensive catalyst who knifes at defenses with line drives and well-placed bunts,” adding that second base or center field could be in his future. The 20-year-old divided 2019 between both middle infield positions and batted .322/.375/.396 with just a single homer in 596 PA at the Single-A and High-A levels.
Photos courtesy of USA Today Sports Images.
WHAAAAT
I guess the Ray’s doesn’t like Tommy Pham like the Cards didn’t with him being honest with everything
I agree. I think his comments about TB is a factor in this trade being made. Also, Renfroe is a younger and cheaper option.
San Diego wins this trade. Pham is really good.
What did Pham say about Tampa?
Naw, this looks a lot like a control money trade. Seems like the Rays value the defense a little more than the Pads did (especially with the glut they have in the OF) so it was just a way to stay payroll nimble.
What if Renfroe explodes and Edwards becomes a really good player as well????
Pham is a very good pickup. But we don’t even know the other piece involved yet.
Wow. 1 home run in almost 600 at bats. Better Homers aren’t even near everything but even as a 2nd baseman that is truly weak. Especially since that single homer came against single-A pitchers throwing a juiced ball. His other numbers look legit. Can someone please buy this guy some Vitamin-S so he can turn out to be a real baseball player?
Single-A pitchers weren’t throwing a juiced ball. Sorry to break it to you.
He kind of bagged on Tampa having low attendances. Which makes sense coming from St Louis. So I guess he’ll get a bit more in SD. I think he’ll mesh better on a team that shows aggressiveness to win. TB always has a looming chance of making the wild card but are never a team to be all hands in on situations (as this trade shows)
In a pure win situation, SD won this. Padres have significantly became a more exciting team to watch in 2020.
Nothing untrue.
You don’t need to hit homeruns to be a good baseball player.
Ozzie Smith agrees
This was a typical Tampa move. Save money and at the same time make under the radar moves. Seems like the type of move many of us are expecting out of Bloom in trading JBJ.
JBJ should’ve realistically been nontendered. He’s not worth $11M. Chaim tendered him because he’s got a big budget now. But to value Jackie at that level is ridiculous. I wouldn’t be surprised if he got cut in camp.
Where’s the proof?
Major league baseball has not become a sport where you have an “aggressiveness to win,” that is determined by Payroll. The Padres’ financial decisions, although gradually getting better, from recent and past history have blown up embarrassingly in their faces.
The Rays, through their thrifty nature, have still garnered one of the highest win percentages in all of baseball over the last decade, while playing in arguably the toughest division in baseball.
The Rays were dealt a crappy hand by being located where they are. It’s a retirement community full of old people who cling on to their MLB allegiances for wherever their from. The Yankees, Phillies, Blue Jays, Red Sox all have had homes near there for a long time before the Rays, so the locals have also held onto those allegiances. The stadium is also old, even though I still love to go in there and enjoy some air conditioned baseball.
The Rays are doing just fine. St. Pete has them by the balls with this contract for the stadium, but they’ll soon get the support they need when they’re out of that region, whether they increase the payroll or not.
Long time mlb fan living in Bay Area. It’s really hard for me to continue to support the rays due owner Stu who does not put money in at all. It’s too bad cause team management has done a great job despite owner.
Luckily the lightning have a world class owner so I have taken up hockey and in summer just bought a boat!
@priggs it’s a post-fact world now
Looming….as in actually making it? The only thing holding back the Rays is their non committal owner who operates on budgets circa 1990.
Front office great. Owner terrible. Making millions off of other teams charity. The fans will come when they have an owner who’s committed to the team. Stu doesn’t care.
The only thing the Padres have been aggressive at is adding payroll. The Padres haven’t won more than 77 games since 2010, with their last playoff appearance being 2006. The Rays have won 186 games the last 2 seasons combined.
I think he’ll mesh better on a team that shows aggressiveness to win.
—————————————–
Maybe I am mis-reading this, but are you saying SD is showing more aggressiveness to win? You do know that TB finished 26 games ahead of SD last year, right?
It’s really hard for me to continue to support the rays due owner Stu who does not put money in at all.
———————————————
Supporting the team? You finished 29th in attendance. TB fans cannot complain about the lack of spending, while simultaneously refusing to spend their own money.
BS. You guys wouldn’t come if the team was 162-0. You won 96 games and finished 29th in attendance.
Somehow, with their lack of trying to win, the Rays have the 5th most wins in baseball over the past dozen years. If you’re correct with the observation that the Rays aren’t aggressive enough, then 2 dozen other markets should be aggressively shoving their aggressive front office personnel out the door.
the observation that the Rays aren’t aggressive enough
—————————————————
That’s the usual BS from the casual fans. ‘Aggressive’ is an emotion, not a strategy. There are only good deals and bad deals. The term ‘aggressive’ is meaningless in the context of putting together a l/t winning strategy.
Padres are losing patience with some of these guys. Renfroe is very talented both offensively and defensively. He can be.a beast when he goes on a good roll, but he tanked badly the whole second half of 2019.
I hope Pham keeps his head on straight and does well in SD.
but he tanked badly the whole second half of 2019.
———————————————–
Wasn’t he hurt the whole second half of 2018, and would that be an important consideration for your assessment of him?
Yeah I’m sure Rays fans are stoked to come to the dim lit field to watch cheap players.
If they get the best out of Renfroe- and remember everyone plays better than ever before in Tampa. It is like the early 1990s Braves where any pitcher became lights out in a Braves uniform.
If the trend continues Renfroe will be the next Carlos Pena. Look at the numbers and situation-very similar to Pena. I think this is what the Rays are thinking.
Pham will be 32. Renfroe will be 28. One is in obvious decline the last 2 seasons. The other is just coming into his prime.
Renfroe broke a bone in his foot in late June and the Padres training staff didn’t figure it out until after the season was over. He had 24 HR when he broke his foot. He had 9 after that. He hit .250 with a .900+ OPS before he broke his foot and under the Mendoza line after that. He was the best defensive corner OF in baseball last season.
I get why Tampa wants him. He is going to be a monster in the AL East ballparks.
The Rays won’t move out of the Tampa area. Too big of a media market. They will just move to Tampa where they should have been in the first place.
rays won
Jake Cronenworth vs Xavier Edwards rays won their.
Tommy Pham ab 1819 79 hr vs Hunter Renfroe 1323 89 hr and hit better in rays stadium. rays did not lose much but gain more down the road.
Renfroe never broke a bone in his foot.
Yes he did. June 23rd in Pittsburgh. Go read the UT.
I did and it says he had a bone spur. That’s different.
Even when they made the World Series in 2008 they still had poor attendance.
Tampa Bay is really, really, cheap. Anytime someone gets up to 7-8 million dollars per year it’s time to trade them. No wonder their seats sit empty. The Ray’s live on the money that Boston and New York send them every year.
Probably that they were penny Pinchers. cheap, cheaper, cheapest, that’s my Ray’s.
Don’t sleep on Edwards he has all the tools to be a star on base machine shortstop/ 2nd basemen.
Pham’s head will never be on straight.
Good luck San Diego
Tampa has empty seats because it takes 1+ hours to get to the stadium from anywhere and you can add another 30+ minutes if there is a wreck on any of the bridges you have to cross to get there. Then you have to park and get to your seats. .Then when you get there the stadium is a pit. 2 hours door to seat.
Would you leave your house at 5pm for a 7pm game if you were going to Tropicana Field?
Or they like Edwards and Renfroe and everyone is a commodity to TB
Pretty sure it has to do with how good Edwards is
A lot of teams trade players that don’t fit in the clubhouse
Then why does the other team acquire them
Maybe because he doesn’t have a positive attitude. I didn’t even know about the TB comment. But if you take that, plus when he whined about not being selected for the all-star game, you get a selfish player with a negative influence.
Big deal, he “whined” about not making the All-Star team. At least he wanted to be there, unlike the players who skip it due to some bogus minor injury.
The point is that he’s self centered.
Good move by AJ Pham is a hard nose player strong OBP decent BA and solid D.
The minor leaguer has some strong numbers in AAA. Renfore had too many K’s and a very low OBP, ya he’s younger but AJ is playing to make it happen this year and next year. Padres win on this trade
Like the Rays Side easily!
Now this is going to be interesting to follow
probably another pitcher going to Rays?
Passan reporting Xavier Edwards and renfroe. Seems like a lot
A lot? Renfroe is a poor man’s Kyle Schwarber offensively. And a very promising SS prospect who is still playing A ball. Pham makes SD a lot better right now. Seems more than fair to the Padres.
Fair
Pretty spot on. Pham makes the Padres immediately better since Renfroe kinda sucks. But Edwards makes this a long term play for the Rays.
(Watch Rays flip Edwards and get immediately better)
Edwards is not a shortstop.
Heads up, Pham made a RIDICULOUS amount of baserunning gaffes last year.
If Pham would’ve kept his own head up, he wouldn’t have made so many baserunning blunders. Sure won’t miss the GIDPs too. Rally killer.
Every year
You’re full of it. Renfroe is a bona fide power hitter with excellent defense. Schwarber is as one-dimensional as they come.
I’d say that Renfroe is another Dave Kingman (remember him?) offensively and a pretty decent defender.
Not even close. That’s a ridiculous comp.
Pham will be 32 on opening day 2020. He has shown significant decline the past two seasons. That will continue in 2020. Renfroe was the best defensive corner OF in baseball last year. Until he broke a bone in his foot in late June in a game in Pittsburgh, he was hitting .250/.900+ with 24 HR at that point. That is elite.
I couldn’t agree more. Just checked another forum. They’re already dismissing Renfroe as a scrub they couldn’t wait to get rid of, and praising Pham as the second coming.
Weird freaking fan base. There’s a good reason I haven’t posted on GLB for almost 3 years.
Lol 2 years ago they were saying on GLB that Jose Pirela was better than Renfroe. Some serious degenerates on that site.
Pham has declined from a 6.2 win season in 2017, but he’s declined to a 3 win player, which would have made him the the second most productive Padre hitter in 2019, behind Tatis and just ahead of Manny.
Renfroe’s defense has only been a positive one year. He was below average in 17 and 18. I believe he can keep it up, but it’s something to bear in mind.
I like Pham. He is a good player battling an incurable degenerative condition in his eye and he has donated his time to several baseball camps in the Tampa area that I have been privileged to work at over the last 2 years.
Even without the eye issue, players over 30 regress and Pham is no different. Pham played league average ball according WAR and has declined from a 144 OPS+ at age 29 to a 119 OPS+ at age 31 and from an 11 DRS to a 1 DRS. If he continues on that same trendline of 10% regression per season what will Pham’s production be in 2020 and 2021? Still above league average so the Padres get a bump in production in LF.
As to defense, Renfroe had a 22 DRS in 2019 and a 5 DRS in 2018, and 1 DRS in his.rookie season. His defensive issues that rookie season were all throwing errors. In every other part of his game he was a plus defender.
Renfroe has serious issues with hitting the high fastball and with strike outs, but defense is not one of the problems he faces. He is one of the best RF on defense.
How do you get power hitters out? High fastballs.
@Adrian Gonzales …
Oh man, I saw that BS! Anybody brave enough who pointed out obvious got attacked. They were also defending Myers at third base last year. Seriously! Freaking bizzare. Low baseball IQ in the name of defending Preller? I really don’t know.
Don’t speak ill of the Freddy Galvis trade on there. Then they’ll really drag you off to the firing squad!
Really? I didn’t see that one. I just read the comments every now and then. I do know you don’t want to criticize Preller over there. It turns into a mob. A mob of about 4 regulars, LOL! When they were making excuses for him getting suspended, that was it for me. Before that was the Bud Black thing. A lot of people just quit. Like, they had game threads with 5 comments and couldn’t figure out why.
Stupid he strikes out just as much and with less power
Pham gets on base at a 30% higher rate (.373 v .294) than Renfroe.
Ok Brad Pitt
Pham has an career OBP almost 80 points higher than Renfroe. I agree with you though the trade wouldn’t make much sense to me if the padres give up a good/above average prospect.
Tommy Pham is a better hitter no questions asked. This is a win and the Padres got significantly better.
The Rays just got significantly better as well. Renfroe was the best defensive corner OF in baseball last season and he was hitting .250 with a 900+ OPS and 24 HR when he broke a bone in his foot in late June. Other teams would have sat him for more than 3 games when that happened, but the Padres were hovering around .500 when that happened, so they just kept playing him. The results were what you would expect. He only hit 9 more home runs the rest of the season and hit .178 from that point on. Blame belongs on Padres training staff and in no way represents Renfroe’s talent level.
The Padres are looking to get better in 2020 ONLY. This offseason reeks of 2015 and unfortunately for Padres fans we will get to see the same kind of result. .
Why just keep reposting the same comment over and over? And Renfroe has a career OBP below .300, that’s not elite, no matter how much you bloviate about his first half numbers.
Sure, as long as you want to ignore the power part of the equation.
He’s a power hitter. Are you going to complain he doesn’t steal bases, too?
Oh wait … he had a few stolen bases.
Pham makes the Padres a lot better right now. You give up a prospect who is 2+ years away to get better now. This makes them better now. Seems fair.
And also gets you 20 stolen bases, more versatile defense, a lot more runs scored, a way higher average and a way higher OPS. Seems like a really good deal for the Padres.
I think they have already shown that Renfroe is better on defense than Pham. Its offense where he is better than Renfroe.
Pham will not have a higher OPS. I’d bet on that all day long.
Prellar knows his seat is on fire.
Hemroids?
The dreaded ring sting.
You mean like steroids?
If 2020 starts out like 2015 did its going to get much hotter.
and just like 2015, he’s trading away the future (Edwards) for the hope that an aging player still has it (Kemp, the Uptons, Shields, etc…). Preller has to go.
This is interesting
They are both essentially the same player. They’re both extremely overrated.
Pham is underrated if anything
Where are these ratings posted?
Not really. Pham had a 3.7 war last season is a better hitter than renfroe. Renfroe just has more power but the two are not the same.
WAR is a fake stat made up by geeks. With that said Pham is far better than Renfroe.
Watch teh gaemz, amirite
They are not the same. Not even close to the same. Pham has been significantly better over his career than Renfroe. He’s a 20-20 player who gets on base at a great clip. Renfroe is a poor man’s Dave Kingman – he hits HR’s and does little else. HR’s are awesome. But it isn’t like Pham doesn’t hit his fair share himself while getting on base, stealing bases, scoring runs and driving in runs at a higher clip than Renfroe. Really good trade for the Padres to get better right now.
Wrong. Pham is a leader who works his tail off, prob the best overall position player the Rays had. We have been hearing about Renfroe for years…w little to show. How do you hit that many home runs and still have an ops below .800???
Not really, because Renfroe hits a bunch of bombs and hits for a low batting average and gets poor on base percentages. On the other hand, Pham hits for a pretty good batting average, gets very good on base percentages and hits for pretty good power himself, even though he’s not a 30 home run hitter.
Is Preller manic? Does he get in a mood and need to make trades to satisfy that mania? Or does he simply feel the need to get rid of all the decisions made by the old administration (kind of like a certain political figure that will go unnamed)?
Wrong website for politics.
Second this. I don’t even know which side you’re talking about, but get outta here with this nonsense
That’s why it went unnamed. The point isn’t the politics — it is the comparison of a mental state. Preller wants to win, I think. But he also seems committed to ridding the organization of individuals that were acquired by the previous administration. Is there a single Padre holdover left aside from Hedges?
Shut up
Hedges is next
no u
Besides Hedges, none that I can think of. That’s a sign of Preller’s arrogance.
When Hedges goes, the Padres last shot at winning goes with him. Their ERA was more than a point lower with him behind the plate than anyone else. Since they are adding horrible players like Profar and Grisham as starters at 2B and in the OF, their offense will regress further. Only shot they have is all the young pitchers having Hedges catching them.
Hedges if he could only hit his weight his BA and RBI’s are embarrassing for a C. We need to pick up Wilson Contreas from the Cubs I understand he’s on the block.
Pick up a worse defensive catcher than Mejia? That may be the singular dumbest thing I have read you comment.
John Gruden isn’t a politician yet.
Take your politics elsewhere, McStagger!
Not a Pham of political discourse?
Clown comment bro
Here we go with the politics.
Edwards is the prize here for the Rays. Padres keep adding outfielders.
I don’t get trade on rays part
Pham can hit. Why would Rays do this?
Edwards good
You Frankenstein hahah jk
Because the Rays decided that they didn’t want to pay Pham $8.5mil this year and closer to $10mil in 2021, then lose him to free agency. They get more controllable yrs plus a highly rated SS. The Rays way.
Yep. Padres get better right now. Rays get the higher risk, higher potential reward for later..
Renfroe had hit 24 HRs in June when he broke a bone in his foot and he was the best defensive corner OF in baseball last season. That is why.
A healthy Renfroe is .25o with a .900+ OPS and 40 HRs playing in the AL East.
Really enjoy how you leave out his obp in every single comment you made about renfroe.
Awesome. He hits a lot of balls hard. So did ryan schimpf k walk or hr. Renfroe can’t get on base to save his life. Under .300 obp gets you released now a days. Power hasn’t been valued in years. Teams care more about getting on base.
Pham and grisham offer a better defensive outfield and obp abilities than Margot and renfroe would have.
Power “hasn’t been valued in years?” Are you crazy? I guess the whole launch angle thing was a myth.
You mean his .312 OBP when he broke the bone in his foot?
Which is more important for a power hitter? OPS or OBP?
If you have a .900 OPS you are an elite hitter regardless of your OBP. You do realize that, right?
LMFAO. You think Grisham is even in the same category as Margot on defense? Grisham was league average in CF. Margot was 6 runs saved better. To give you a better idea, Margot has been top 10 in baseball the last 3 years. Grisham isn’t in the top 30 CF. Even his scouting reports say he has been an about average OF on defense in the minors.
Renfroe was the best defensive corner OF in baseball. He is elite. The very best. Pham was exactly average. There was a 22 runs saved difference.
Please GTFO if you are not going to do at least a little checking before you comment.
That is a 28 runs saved difference.
The word you said is true when Renfroe is healthy the last half of 2019 he’s hitting around .216 with nagging injuries
Odd that the Rays would want another SS prospect with Franco coming up and Adames already being there
Unless they can use him to flip in another trade for someone else? That’s how I’m picturing it after how you mentioned Franco and Adams’s already in the Rays org.
Edwards can be traded to the Pirates
Unless Newman was a one yr wonder the Pirates are ok at SS for several yrs.
Newman was a first round pick too. Not to say that that makes him a lock to not drop off, but should give him a little more credibility in being able to continue producing going forward
*Adames
You can never have too many shortstops. Most of them end up changing positions
Not only that Edwards isn’t that close. Take as many SS that you believe can hit and they can transition off. Plus the Rays always churn so it’s not surprising.
Edwards is much better suited for 2B than SS
He’s in A ball. He can be moved anywhere. Teams don’t even look at this if he’s a SS
Edwards is not a SS.
Assets
Rays save money. replace with a suitable major leaguer replacemant and a blue chip trade bait or keeper. thats how a good run low payroll team keeps being competitive
Exactly….it’s about getting cheaper lower cost players. I doubt Phams outspokenness has anything to do with it. It’s about the $$$….period.
Yeah I’m kind of amazed anyone would think Pham mentioning the Rays don’t fill their stadium a few times matters at all. He’s been positive in the clubhouse by all accounts. That’s what matters.
Best run team in baseball. That is why they can continue to win with some of the lowest payrolls in baseball.
There are many ways to win. Preller hasn’t learned any of them.
But did Manny Machado approve of this yet??
Trade manny
wow
Knucklehead Preller. Get some pitching stupid.
Lol
It’s good to see the Padres make deals. They haven’t had a winning season in 10 years. Pham is going to be expensive but at least he’s good and will be worth his money this year. Renfroe is still too raw of a player. The rays will probably put him at DH
If anything, Renfroe is a better fielder than he is a batter. He had 20+ DRS last year. I don’t see him getting moved to DH just yet.
Renfroe got robbed of the gold glove this year. Why would they put him at DH
Gold Gloves are popularity contests. Remember when Jeter won one when he was a statue out there?
Say whay you like, but the GG award is a source of pride and accomplishment to the players.
Ah yes, the last time Preller made deals, he set the team back 5 years.. it’s all coming full circle.
Yup. He’s on the hot seat. And when he gets fired, he will leave us with a decimated farm and a roster full of mediocre players that can’t be moved (Myers, Hosmer).
Machado, Pham.
Dh? I don’t think so. Dude might play CF in TB. He’s a plus defender at all 3 OF positions. And getting out of that giant stadium they play at in SD may help his offensive game. Definitely some untapped potential in Renfroe’s game.
It’s rough giving up Pham, but Neander, the Tampa GM knows his job is safe, he can play the long game, keep piling up elite prospects like Edwards to use for later. Preller doesn’t have that luxury.
In other words, you looked at his batting profile and stereotyped what his defense would be. Ignoring the fact that he is a genuinely elite fielder. He is as far from a DH as you can get.
Actually, he was poorly regarded for years. In 2019 he started playing 8 feet deeper, he does have a strong arm, to protect himself against having to make plays going back. One thing fielding metrics do not measure so well is how many hits drop in front of you because you’re playing too deep.
He was not “poorly regarded for years” The scouting reports on him as a prospect all said he was a plus defender. You’re completely making this up to fit your narrative.
Also there are metrics, like UZR, that work by quantifying balls that a player reaches in comparison to the league. So literally the metrics track the amount of balls that drop in front of players….
Regarding defense, I have far more faith that the soon to be 28 yr old will maintain his defensive value over the soon to be 32 yr old, who was never that good with the glove anyway.
Renfroe was considered a good RF in the minors. He struggled on defense in 17-18 but made some serious adjustments before 2019. He may need to adjust again for the TB turf, but he has the physical skills to keep contributing on D. The foot injury that killed his offense in the second half might also be problematic, but a healthy Hunter Renfroe could easily be a 3+ win player.
He played some CF as a minor leaguer but no one then or now thinks he can play it well in the majors.
Hoping Edwards doesn’t turn into Trea Turner Part 2. He has the tools to be even better — probably not at short, but a switch-hitting CF with a high OBP and low strikeouts doesn’t need power. When EVERYBODY is hitting 20 HR, and sacrificing OBP, a player with X’s skills could be a huge advantage.
I wonder what MrPadre19, who said unequivocally that Edwards was the 2b of the future, thinks about this move.
Yes DRS does take into account the balls that drop in front of the OF.
Renfroe’s only poor year defensively was his rookie season when he tried to throw everyone out and made 7 throwing errors in the first half of the season. Even with those throwing errors he ended the season as a plus defender. Since then he has been the best defensive corner OF in baseball.
Meh.
I love the Pham for Renfroe but do wish we could have given Arias and another prospect instead of Edwards.
Obviously the Rays wanted Edwards as much as I thought he would be our 2b of the future.
Preller really likes Pham!
WTF are you talking about? Renfroe was the best defensive corner OF in baseball last year.
Just another busy work move. What’s the benefit? He’s just making a move to look busy.
You still feel that way, Crikey?
woahhh.
time will tell with this one. interesting.
Hunter Renfroe=Mark Trumbo
If Trumbo could field at an elite level.
No need to stone the blockhead
Pham is an upgrade over Renfroe. Edwards is a great get for the Rays. Want to see the Padres add a veteran or two for their rotation. I suppose if they miss on signing Strasburg they can package some combination of their 27 outfielders to acquire pitching.
Two deals in a row that nobody saw coming. Don’t think Strasburg can be ruled out yet.
The Padres have now increased payroll by $16 million with the additions of a #5 starter in Davies and a backup inf in Profar and Pham. There is no money left for anyone of note. As Cassavell has said, the Padres are going with the pitching staff they have.
I’m guessing they trade for Boyd next. Another affordable, good piece, they can spare a few legitimate prospects.
This is a horrendous trade for the Rays. The effects of Chaim Bloom leaving TB are already showing. I don’t care how good Edward’s might be in a few years. Renfroe hit .216 with 34 HR’s & 5 SB’s in 2019. On the other hand, Pham hit .273 with 21 HR’s & 25 SB’s in 2019. How does this trade help TB??? The Padres fleeced the Rays.
Renfroe is a lot better on D than Pham, is controlled for longer, and isn’t about to get a huge raise. Also Tampa just got their starting SS for 2021-2029. It’s a huge price to pay, but a move that a GM that has to win now or lose his job has to make.
I hope you guys are right.
It’s risk reward. Both teams know the Padres get more immediate term help. Both teams know the Rays are taking more risk and may ultimately get more reward. Seems plenty fair.
Edwards is going to be the second baseman Franco is already there
Actually, it’s probably closer to 2022-2026, considering his level(bat and glove), the service time game, and the heavily mandated Tampa Two(years of control) Trade Law.
Edwards is not our SS of the future. Wander Franco is and the number 1 prospect is in all of baseball. WTF seriously?
Dodger Dog…if a Padres fan said prior to this trade that a single A player with zero power in Xavier Edwards would be anyone’s starting shortstop from 2021-2029, you would have laughed at them. I love Edward’s but I do not think he plays SS at the big league level, and he is a ways off. Give me a break.
Say whaaaaa?
The Rays have as good pro scouting and evaluation as anyone and routinely win these trades. Chaim helped build that but his loss does not diminish it. At least not for a while.
True that.
The Rays trade away expensive arbitration players every single year.
You’ve fallen asleep at the wheel if you think this is any different. They got a fantastic return on Pham here too.
Xavier Edwards can now be used as a chip to acquire another piece they could use. I don’t see a long term slot for him in TB. They have too many middle infielders coming up and on the big league team. Either him or Brujan is likely going to be a trade chip now. The team was never going to pay Tommy Pham’s 14-15 MM arb salary for 2021; they struck a deal early.
I’d be surprised if Renfroe makes it more than 2 years on this team either. He’s a super two this year. After 1 more round of arbitration he’s likely to be sent packing as well. That’s how they run the ship down there.
Renfroe had 24 HRs and was hitting .250 with a 900+ OPS when he broke a bone in his foot in late June in an 11 inning game in Pittsburgh. He also plays elite defense.
Look for a healthy Renfroe to repeat or even play better than he did the first half of 2019 before the injury.
Rays are very smart!
The lead in this long-term is Edwards will bulk up and add to the natural hitting he already possesses.
He is already physically mature with a thick build. He’s not “bulking up” going forward.
This trade makes sense for both sides but also seems like a steep price for two years of Pham. Gonna be very interesting to see what SD does the rest of the off-season.
Seems like a very logical trade. The Padres get better now. The Rays are taking more risk because prospects often fail or don’t live up to the hype. They also may get more long term reward. There are too many people who focus on trades only in terms of who got more overall production out of the players involved. That really isn’t the point often for one team or the other or even both. If the time is now for your team to go for it, you need to go for it. The idea is to win trophies – division titles, playoff series, World Series. Sometimes that means you take the shorter term asset for the more immediate return and send back what could be more longer term value in terms of individual player production.
Like I said. Should have fired Preller before he had the chance to do even more damage. Padres better hope CJ Abrams pans out and is willing to play 2B.
And losing Renfroe could very easily go sideways on them as well.
Don’t think he has much say in what position he plays.
Edwards is the loss, Renfroe sucks!
Edwards and Abrams are the same player and Renfroe sucks!
Uh…Edwards and Abrams are far from the same player. power my friend.
Abrams hit 3 HR against lesser competition last year. Abrams is a little faster than Edwards maybe. Both are high average, elite speed, elite defense players.
Wow! You said it twice and were wrong both times. Say it again. 3 times is the charm.
He might refuse to play 2B and sit out? Okay.
hahahahaha
Losing Renfore is a blessing all he could do is K a lot and his OBP was terrible
You might want to look at some of the other players’ K-rates before you post. Myers ring a bell? (For one).
Why would any team trade with the Rays? Undoubtedly this will end up better for them.
The problem with constantly making trades of MLB players for prospects like the Rays is that no matter how many trades you win, if you lose just one you are right back at the beginning. No matter how much information you have, prospecting is mostly luck when it comes down to it. You might ride luck for a while, but eventually it’ll catch up to you.
Huh?
About 2/3 of the Ray’s roster last season was acquired by trade.
I like this trade for 2 reasons-
#1-2 more years of control & Renfroe is a + defender.
& #2- Renfroe played how many games last season in pitcher friendly stadiums & hit how many Homers?
Now he gets to play 81 games at the Trop, 9 each at Yankee & Fenway stadiums. How many more Homers can he hit next season?
Also the Rays pick up a very good prospect & that allows them to make another trade for a bat.
Enjoy watching him swing at sliders in the dirt.
How on earth did you leave out 9 games in Camden against Orioles pitching?
LMAO. Other than Changeups, Sliders were the pitch he hit best.
fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=15464&posi…
Plus 9 games in Rogers Centre, the best place in baseball for HR’s last season and 9 in Camden Yards against the atrocious Orioles pitching. .
The question is how many times will Renfore strike out with runners on base, he’s a K king with a terrible OBP, Rays will be batting him 6th in their line up if their smart
The Rays got the best defensive corner OF in MLB in this trade. A kid 4 years younger than Pham who also hit .250 with a .900+ OPS and 24 HR before breaking a bone in his foot in an 11 inning game in Pittsburgh in late June.
Get Renfroe out of a division where he has to hit in LA, San Francisco, and Petco 100 games a season and watch what happens to his power.
Pads Fans if all that matters is what Renfroe did “before he got hurt” then include 2018 and 2017.
Or those don’t count?
He hits homeruns……that’s about it.
His defense improved greatly but won’t sustain IMO.
I don’t know pham at all, but it seems that he worn out his welcome in st Louis and tb rays found a trade partner to get an established player with sd. perhaps they may of asked pham of possible places??
The Rays have as good pro scouting and evaluation as anyone and routinely win these trades. Chaim helped build that but his loss does not diminish it. At least not for a while.
Pham an upgrade over renfroe but Edwards is an elite prospect who may look to be the 2b or CF of the future for the Rays
I’ll take the AAA prospect we got back over Edwards, nice trade AJ
Not very smart are you?
Time to get Josh Barfield out of retirement. Maybe he can pitch, too.
Or Jesse
I like this trade for the RAYS. I understand that preller wants to get more athletic in the outfield and improve his defense but renfroe can rake and xavier edwards is a very nice infield prospect to just give away like that. Padres will be good but not because of these offseason moves.
Pham way better then Renfroe
Renfroe was one of the best OF defenders in Baseball last season
You got that exactly backwards. Renfroe is an elite defender and Pham hit better last season overall.
Edwards has the athleticism to play either short or center. Pham is a solid pickup and Renfroe is going to rake and play in the field more than he’ll dh. I hope the player to be named coming back to SD is a pitcher above AA…
A.J. Preller won’t be happy until Jurickson Profar is the only 2B in his entire organization.
He just got a 2B in Cronenworth.
Cronenworth is only the Rays’ #17 prospect
Trade mannyhes gonna pitch…lol
CJ Abrams is on line 2. So is Owen Miller.
Abrams is a SS. So is Miller for now.
Blake Snell does not approve lmao
Renfroe might hit 45 bombs in Tampa.
Edward’s, high average, no power at all. Maybe that was a factor. 50% chance to make it
Renfroe tremendous power, good D, hacks at everything, doesn’t walk. 0% long term chance to stay a starter.
Edwards hasn’t made an out since Bush was in office.
And you underrated Renfroe.
Renfroe’s batted ball profile gives me very little hope he’s anymore than another corner outfielder w one tool. Power. .
Edwards Would be the real loss if the Padres lose anything here. It’s not going to be Renfroe. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him on the non tender line in 2 years.
He’s already in arb as a super two. His traditional HR numbers pay well in that system. There’s next to no chance he’ll be a Ray after 2021.
Disagree on Renfroe being non-tendered but we’ll see. And he isn’t just a one-tool player. He can run, field and throw as well.
I was as high on Edwards as anyone. After Luis Urias was traded he became all the more important to their long-term plan. The Padres better hope CJ Abrams delivers on the hype.
He can field. Sorry that wasn’t the right word. One dimensional offensive player is what I’m looking for.
1500 ABS and all he’s been able to prove is that he can hit HRS. He’s only a year younger than Wil Myers…
And yet, people still hoot and holler about Myers’ “potential.”
And Renfroe is 4 years younger than Pham. We probably have seen the best of Pham already. Renfroe, maybe not.
Renfroe broke a bone in his foot in an 11 inning game in late June last season in Pittsburgh and kept playing on it the rest of the season. That is the fault of the Padres training staff.
At that point he was hitting .250/.312/.614/.926 After that he hit .178/.283/.304/.587
Valid counterpoint. I suppose I’ll see a lot more Renfroe this year.
Renfroe never broke a bone in his foot. He had a bone spur.
Edwards is a suspect who is a prospect when he makes the Bigs and sticks for three yrs. until then don’t lose any sleep on this guy, we got a better AAA player in return
A better AAA player in return? I’ll give you Jabari Blash for Patino. Deal?
Better AAA player? How do you figure? Abrams is a leaguewide top 100. Cronenworth is #17 in the Rays system and they left him unprotected from the Rule 5 draft a year ago.
Bone spurs in the foot occur in the heel when calcium deposits build up. That was not what happened to Renfroe.
Renfroe had a non-displaced fracture of the metatarsal bone in the middle of his foot that he played through. The Padres didn’t even do an xray or MRI at the time. They gave him 3 days off for “illness” but it was not until after the season that the bone break was even diagnosed.
He injured the other ankle later in the year. That also was not a bone spur. It was a high ankle sprain.
According to the UT, MLBTraderumors and the official MLB site the bone spur is exactly what happened.
I can’t find anything that says he had either a bone spur or a broken bone. All I can find is that he had an ankle problem and an elbow problem. Do either of you have a link we can see?
Done
mlbtraderumors.com/2019/09/hunter-renfroe-set-for-…
Nope. He came up with the foot issue in June, but played through it. It was on the top of his foot. Then in Sept, he hurt his ankle. The surgery he had was on the top of the foot, but that’s not where bone spurs usually happen. All I can find are the usual links reporting the injuries, but they aren’t really specific.
Which Bush?
Renfroe is an elite defensive OF and he hit .250 with a 900+ OPS and 24 HR before breaking a bone in his foot in late June. If the Padres send him to the IL for 2 weeks instead of giving him just 3 days off the results in the 2nd half would have been much different.
Are you the idiot that said he hacks at sliders?
fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=15464&posi…
It’s interesting that the Power OF (Renfroe) is (or was) better defensively then the OBP/Speed OF
Renfroe: (2019) +6 Outs Above Average
Pham: (2019) -11 Outs Above Average
It should be noted that among qualifying players (everyday players) on the OAA leaderboards, Tommy Pham tied Eloy Jimenez for 4th worst.
Sometimes defensive metrics make sense and sometimes you have to realize their still flawed and what you’re dealing with is noise.
I’d say this is noise. Pham is a fine corner OFer. I wouldn’t worry about that.
My post was just me displaying interest at how Pham and a Renfroe had, how do I say, “reverse defensive splits”.
Usually (or stereotypically) speaking, it’s the all-or-nothing hitter that is a defensive negative and the AVG+OBP+Speed hitter that is more or so a defensive plus. So seeing the reverse for both players was something I found interesting.
Pham is a MEH defensive OF. Renfroe is elite. If its one stat that is anomalous, then its noise. When its ALL the stats that show that Pham is about average and Renfroe is among the very best then its reality.
Renfroe was “elite” defensively last year.
He’s been average every other season.
He may still be good going forward but I doubt he just suddenly became Jim Edmonds.
His DRS was +5 in 2018. That’s 5 runs better than average. In 2017, his DRS was still +1, despite rookie mistakes in the first half of the season. And he still had 9 OF assists in 2017.
It’s not noise as far as I’m concerned. If you or the world say it is, then good for you.
I’ve said all I’ve wanted. Goodbye.
In Pham you’ll be getting 100% hustle and drive and with that additionally you will get base running blunders and an obscene amount of GIDP. A true rally killer. He’ll be missed in Tampa Bay anyway.
This trade was a winner for the Friars no doubt, Renfore is Mr. K with lousy OBP he K so many times it was insane, see ya
Even with Bloom no longer there, I feel like the Rays are always positioning themselves to compete each year. Padres, ehhhhh, not so much. Knowing this, it does not feel like a win for Pads.
So you think the Rays won the trade because they have been more competitive in recent years than the rebuilding Padres?… Uhh, Am I missing something here?
Probably. We have all read your posts baseball analytics.
Cronenworth is a great get for San Diego. I’d rather have him at 2B than Profar
Jake Cronenworth who until going to the friendly confines of AAA was a .750 OPS minor league hitter? He has tools like Joe Panik from the right side. Completely uninteresting high floor low ceiling prospect.
And was unprotected and unselected in the Rule 5 draft last year
He would’ve been picked this year had he gotten that far. Big turnaround.
So was Franmil Reyes.
Who the guy who lost how many games with his D, Mr Reyes
Nowhere, stay on point. We are talking about being unprotected in the Rule 5 draft. WTF does Reyes defense have to do with the Rule 5 draft?
Don’t know why I bother. You make completely moronic statements and then when others show you that you are an idiot you never comment again on that point.
wow I won’t be able to sleep tonight you really hurt me LOL
That would be tools like Joe Panik. Only with a “right arm” on the mound. He doesn’t have any tools from the right side. My writing is considerably worse tonight.
I don’t buy the two way player thing. There’s 1 Shohei Ohtani and then there’s a bunch of other guys who can’t do it. Cronenworth’s hit tool will have to carry him in the major leagues. Don’t buy that it will carry him very far. Just another one of the Rays 25 2B prospects they had.
I agree. I was actually surprised Ohtani managed to do both and do them well. Preller has been trying for years to turn players into two way players with no success (see Bethancourt, Christian).
Michael Lorenzen is more of an actual two way player than Ohtani. Ohtani is nothing but a pitcher and a DH. In other words, he is a National League pitcher that can hit well. He is not a real two way player like Lorenzen who pitches and plays center field.
And lorenzen will throw about half as many innings as Ohtani in a season and get a tenth of the ABS as Ohtani does. So…Yeah Mike Lorenzen isn’t a true full time two player either.
And if anyone doubts that Ohtani could play a defensive position if he were allowed to; I think you’d be sadly mistaken. The Angels just won’t allow it.
Will throw half as many? Can you see the future? If you want to play a “maybe” game, then Lorenzen COULD be a starter. He wants to be, but the team won’t allow it. Then maybe he wouldn’t throw half as many innings as the players with 60 career innings pitched.
BTW, anyone COULD play a defensive position if the team allowed it. If Ohtani was good enough, then why exactly wouldn’t the Angels allow it?
Michael lorenzen has 55 abs in a season buddy. He hasn’t even proved he can consistently hit the baseball.
You’re telling me he’s the true two way player. But he gets about 8 abs a month. The Angels are obviously concerned about Ohtani’s health. They obviously find it far more valuable to have a healthy TOR starter than it is to risk playing him in the field.
Also, the Reds tried lorenzen in the rotation many moons ago. So don’t start that crap w me.
Ohtani just had Tommy John. So if you were wondering why they did not want to risk him playing the field; look no further than that. He came over to the U.S. with that issue. If you think Ohtani couldn’t play a defensive position then you’re failing to see the talent there. He was an excellent OF in Japan.
A reliever who has made 6 career starts in the outfield is the guy you are arguing is the ultimate two way player. I’m not trying to minimize what either of them are doing either. It is extremely difficult to do what either of them has done. And my knock above on Lorenzen isn’t completely fair either. It’s extremely difficult to get into any kind of rhythm when you get 8-10 abs in a month.
I don’t believe Lorenzen maxing out at 55 abs in a season and making 6 starts in the OF makes him the only “true two way guy” either. That’s what I do not agree with.
J two-times back. Couldn’t make your case once so you come back minutes later for a second go. Good stuff. Although I agree with you 100% on Othani, delete your account.
Sad.
The reason he only got x amount of games in the outfield is because the Reds didn’t play him in CF until Senzel went down in August. Regardless of how many ABs he gets, how many relievers do you know of that routinely are left in to bat in the 7th or 8th inning? How many relievers do you know of that pitch 2 innings and then stay in the game in CF afterwards?
Ohtani is a fine DH, but for right now that’s all he is. A good hitter that probably couldn’t even play in the NL. He may end up as more than that, and frankly I would like to see him dominate on the mound for more than 10 starts while hitting 25 homers. It would be good for the game. But I’m not going to give him credit for doing that before he actually does it either.
PS – I’m not your buddy, so don’t start with me either. Have a nice day.
Lol I’m not your buddy, guy!
m.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfKdNxIOcQ
When your bench is as bad as the Reds was last season then pretty much anyone is an improvement.
Ohtani is an exceptional athlete and one of the fastest players on the team. If Billy would allow him to, he would absolutely play OF.
The “friendly confines of AAA” listen to yourself! Oh brother. He struck out 15% of the time and walked 12% of the time last year. Chalk that up to park factors? You’re quoting OPS at me for a player that doesn’t hit for power and doesn’t need to?? Why don’t you just quote HR distance at me and call it a day?? Oh by the way, you’re aware that AAA and MLB use the same baseball now right? Finally, were comparing him to Jurickson Profar, who has done exactly NOTHING at the major league level, not to Altuve or McNeil. Calm yourself down and get that wild dbag ego in check
beisbolista – Bigz had a previous comment on the “slap richard” player and his value in a future trade despite the fact that he’s hit 1 career bomb professionally. He picks and chooses facts when he’s not practicing bigotry.
You mean the same guy who batted .267 in 2017 and .254 in 2018?
I don’t quote batting average, I’m sorry. He’s a 25 year old who had a nice season in AAA. He’s going to be a contact dependent player like Joe Panik. He doesn’t have the other tools.
I can’t tell if you’re trolling us or if you’re really this dense. This player is posting walk rates routinely over 10% and you’re calling him contact dependent?? Be gone fool
I would rather have Garcia or even Kinsler at 2B than Profar.
Unless Preller strong-arms Tingler into playing Profar more than he should (which would not surprise me) you are likely going to see Garcia get the majority of starts at 2B in 2020.
We can only hope, but I don’t have faith in the Padres doing that because of the cost of getting and paying Profar.
Preller will play Profar, and all Tingler will be able to do is take the heat for it.
Profar as stated by many here is better in the OF and is a Switch hitter so let’s see what the guy can do in SD
Profar can play poorly. That is all he has ever done. Where have you been?
Your comments are hilarious you really need to get on with your life
Profar has no place to play on the Padres except 2B.
“We gave Pham up for Renfroe and a d–n slap d–k prospect?!”
Edward’s is regarded as a really good prospect.
Yes we were going no where with Renfore
Did someone really suggest Renfroe is going to play CF in Tampa? Lol. Hunter improved a ton last year in defense and his advanced stats look really good, but he has historically been a poor defender with a super strong (albeit inaccurate) cannon of an arm.
I think TB sees a cheap option who can hit for power and is controllable for a ton of years. I think this elite defense notion is being blown out of proportion. I think some regression will come next year imo but I do foresee him as a plus defender.
One of a few sane and intelligent comments
Wrong. Renfroe has always been a very good defensive player who looked bad in the first half of his rookie year when he made 7 throwing errors. Since then he has been one of the best defensive corner OF in baseball with only 3 throwing errors in the last 2 seasons.
The only way this makes sense is if Preller had pics of Neander cheating on his wife.
Or if Tommy Pham is beelining towards free agency and he just got a quality outfielder who is 4 years out from FA and a top MI prospect with a ton of helium.
“Quality?” You trying to make me choke to death on my drink here?? And the words “top” and “MI prospect” are oxymorons. They’re a dime-a-dozen. I wouldn’t call having 2 years left on his deal “beelining” either lol
You’re going to be thrilled with this trade in two years.
Dbird it also says the Rays get another prospect in the deal. It could be like the G-d Glasnow deal where you get another significant prospect.
I’m right there w you on not being a big Renfroe guy; but Pham had two years left and was going to make more money than TB was going to pay him in 2021. This is what your team does. If you don’t see any progression from Renfroe over the next 2 years, he’s going to be going down non tender lane….. If he does improve; he’ll probably be facing the same fate Pham is now.
They got a hell of a return here though. Xavier Edwards can be dealt for something to help the ML team right away. If that’s what they wanna do.
The Rays FO is not afraid to pull the trigger either. The Nick Anderson trade was obviously a huge success. Edwards has every bit as much value as a prospect like Sanchez. If not a bit more.
Edwards is the #4 overall 2B prospect in baseball. That is high quality.
Pham has half the team control that Renfroe has..
Little confusing at first, as Pham is the superior player but Renfroe does have superior control. Edwards is for sure the superior prospect to Cronenworth, though.
This gives the Rays an extra spot on the 40 man roster. Edwards has at least 2 years of control before he has to be moved up to the 40 man roster. Cronenworth is a 26 year old prospect and Edwards is only 19.
Renfroe has 3 more years of arbitration while Pham is a free agent after the 2021 season. I don’t see why the Padres made this move. Is Cronenworth their 2B of the future? Is Pham better than a younger cheaper Renfroe? This year he was, but time is on Renfroe’s side.
Renfroe has 4 years of arb left.
If they were 10 years apart, I’d say Pham would be a better player at 40 than Renfroe at 30. The latter is a low-avg, high strikeout masher, who’s only average at mashing.
I’m so sick of Preller. Guy’s a well-known snake oil salesman. Maybe another underachieving season in S.D. gets him out of all our hairs.
Thing is dingers pay in arbitration. Hunter is cheaper now but he won’t be after a couple of rounds of arb if he keeps swatting HRs.
Hell, if they wanted a controllable OF and a nothing-prospect or two, I’d have gladly given them Aquino and a couple of PTBNL’s
This is the Rays 101. They’re going to dump any player that gets too expensive in arb. This is a very good return though. A top 100 prospect for a guy they gave up Genesis Cabrera to get. They also got a season and a half of productive baseball from him.
I don’t like Renfroe at all. He’s another Domingo Santana type with a huge hole in his swing. I don’t know; maybe they’ll be able to fix that in TB. SD hasn’t been proven to be the greatest organization at developing major leaguers thus far. We shall see.
Trade manny
So, Renfroe and Franmil…gone.
Power outage in SD. Nope, not liking this move as with most of the moves made this off season by Preller.
HR’s don’t bring you to the playoffs, as witnessed with all the HR’s the Friars hit in 2018, but runs scored, RBI’s with RISP, OBP, win games. I see Pham as our lead off hitter, something we’ve been lacking for a while
Renfroe hit a lot of homers….most were solo’s cause we couldn’t get anyone on base.
Now with Grisham,Pham,Profar and Tatis,Manny and Hosmer should each top 110 RBI’s with ease.
.
I don’t see how Profar will help them in that endeavor.
Man, we’ve got some delusional fans.
I really, really, really hope this was sarcasm.
The Padres were 20th in HRs and 6th in BA with RISP. Their biggest problem was a lack of baserunners when their power hitters came to the plate. They were 26th in OBP.
Luis Urias and Xavier Edwards would have solved that problem…
Maybe so, but Pham is a better overall hitter, is more of an on base guy and can actually for power, even though he isn’t a 30 home run guy like Renfroe and Reyes are.
So it seems the Padres have abandoned the rebuild in favor of a 2-year window. They better hope they win a championship in the next 2 years, otherwise they just gave up Luis Urias, Eric Lauer, Austin Allen, Hunter Renfroe and Xavier Edwards for Trent Grisham and probably a draft pick from QOing Tommy Pham.
And if it doesn’t work out, Preller likely won’t have to deal with the fallout from losing th0se players if you know what I mean…
I think I would worry more about getting to maybe a .500 record before I considered the possibility of a championship.
A championship is the only way these trades are worth it
True, but you can’t win a championship with a below .500 team. So maybe you are putting the cart before the horse here.
I mean with all due respect to that entire group that’s quantity over quality, with the exception of Edwards and Urias potential aside from the concerning red flags, to target needs and improve at the mlb level. And yes Pham is a substantial improvement, there is still depth in front of Edwards. There’s not a ton of individual trade value in that group, but they used the depth they’ve amassed to address needs and make the team better.
That’s what Preller should be doing, and it’s one dimension of the farm. You can’t keep every prospect nor is there room, so seemingly improving the mlb team should be the main priority. Preller still has a ton of work to do, mismatched pieces to trade and areas to address to make this a competitive/playoff team. Granted I’ll give you the questionable Profar trade in terms of what was given up, but if he can avoid another bad contract he seems to be on the right track.
IMO, the only move he’s made that improved this team was Davies (marginally), and overpaying for Pomeranz. I think the rest of his moves actually weakened the team.
There is probably a slightly better than 0% chance a mid 30’s Pham gets a QO when he becomes a free agent.
His rebuild was/is failing. He’s in his 6th year and knows he won’t be around to sweep up the ashes. Fowler and Seidler aren’t stupid. They’ve seen other teams rebuilt into winners in less time, and Preller’s on the clock.
Low-key hoping it fails miserably just so they finally get rid of Preller. He belongs in a scouting role.
I agree.
The Padres CEO said that they had to be in a win now mode or heads would roll. To me the moves Preller is making are not smart ones, but he is at least trying to put a win now team on the field. The Padres have the same problem the Angels do, a lack of an Ace. Neither team is going to win without at least one starter like a Strasburg or a Cole at the top of the rotation.
MacKenzie Gore and Luis Patiño will take care of that.
Gore and Patino won’t be on the team in 2020. And they won’t likely be studs as rookies. That’s a pipe dream.
If Gore and Patiño aren’t both 200+ IP sub-3 ERA guys when all is said and done you can make fun of me all you want to.
Not in 2020 they aren’t.
Trust the process
By the time Gore and Patino are, Pham, Profar, Davies, and Preller will all be gone.
According to Cassavell, Preller is going with the SPs on the roster. This is not a good thing.
All we can hope is that he doesn’t completely gut the farm before he gets fired.
Next, Preller trades Tatis the way he is going.
Towinagain “the way he is going” is trading for hitters who can get on base!
If you watch the Padres you know they couldn’t…..just look at the solo homeruns Renfroe hit last year.
Why would he trade Tatis who “gets on base”.
This is no secret…..
Let’s get guys on base … and leave them stranded because we have no legitimate power threats.
Has any body heard of a balanced lineup?
Wouldn’t surprise me. He already gave up control of his age 26 season for no reason.
Bold move by the Rays. Maybe Pham stays if the Rays never extended Kiermaier.
Watched Cronenworth last season. Good stick. Padres did well here (as we wait for the other prospect’s name to drop).
Tommy Pham is a low key great player. He was a freshman at my High School when I was a senior. So he’s gonna be closer to his family.
wow.. Suprised. Glad the Padres did it though, at least for 1 year. Renfore has great power, but profiles as swing and miss hitter with below average plate disipline. Good power but poor disipline is probably one of if not the worst up/down combos to have since you usually end up with a low batting average mabye around the .210-.230’s with a lot of strikeouts and 20-30 or so Hrs. Pham on the other hand has a good eye and contact. I just hope its not a one year thing, and we can keep him at least 2 years or so. I just found out now however that he gets arbitration next year meaning he may be able to get a 15 mil + salary in 2021 so I could understand why the Rays might want to trade him. It’s too bad if this is Preller’s make or break year because it clearly takes longer than one year for a team to contend, even with a good payroll. Speaking of poor plate disipline would still like to trade for a catcher because Mejia does possess that despite having making decent contact.
srry think I confused arb with qualifiying offer so it may not be as high as 15 mil arb, if we can get him next year for around 10 mil thou assuming he does good this year that be good for Padres/Pham.
Margot to Cubs
Not quite Rizzo 2.0 but I like it
You can all say it’s about saving money and to a point it is but just remember the rays have a way of winning most trades. I’m gonna let this one age before deciding.
they might win the minors part, but Renfroe is utterly mediocre.
what the heck. that’s something to wake up to.
Don’t like Preller’s recent moves. And I know that this isn’t what this post was about but I still don’t understand why the Padres couldn’t see what everyone else in baseball could which was, Hosmer was not worth that money!!! And I wouldn’t have signed Machado. Those long term contracts (much) more often than not become albatrosses real fast.
Hard to wrap your head around this trade. Rays get instantly worse right after coming off a really good season. I understand saving money and getting a decent player and high prospect (plus apparently another minor leaguer) but gosh. If I was a rays fan, I wouldn’t be thrilled about this
That said, as a braves fan I would have loved Pham. Surely we could have worked out a deal like this.
Instantly worse??? They haven’t played a game yet and the off season has just started. They’ll fill Phams spot and no doubt many moves to go.
This move fills Phams spot. Just because it’s the offseason, doesn’t mean you should make moves like this. Hey, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe they make a huge splash somewhere else and were trying to free up just a little extra payroll and gain youth with upside. To me, this is a move a rebuilding team makes, not a playoff contender. Plus, Pham’s pay was good value … so I just don’t understand this move in the rays current situation
Yes….8.5 mil is great value for 99% of teams out there. The Rays only pay when the player is in his first year or 2 with the team. If they could dump Kiermaier and his 10 mil….they would in a heartbeat.
Preller makes another questionable deal.
Pham is better then Renfroe right now but it’s not an avalanche and Pham has that degenerative eye condition to worry about.
In terms of dollars and control the Rays win this deal going away,that’s the way they have to play it,they can never just go for it.
Idk man.. I’ll respectfully disagree. Rays got worse in this deal. Padres got better as they continue to build a team that can contend. This move for the rays is the type of move that a rebuilding team makes, not a playoff contender. I think the padres got good value here
Rays sold high on Pham and got the #5 prospect out of this deal and got the power they desperately needed.
Renfroe has had nagging injuries the last half of 2019 that’s a big problem with his size
Although Neander has a great trade record, I don’t see any upside in this swap. Pham was one of the 4 most productive players we have. 2 are gone and 1 is a free agent, what are they doing to a team that almost won it all!
Xavier Edwards will be a top 40 prospect in baseball 6 months from now. There’s your upside.
My concern with Edward’s is his lack of power. I don’t think that will change.
Power comes with time. Any good talent evaluator will tell you that you want to start with a good hitter and develop power.
Trying to turn power into a good hitter is often fruitless.
Like I said. Hasn’t made an out since Bush was in office.
Agreed either you have it or your don’t
I’m pretty sure every Rays fan at the deadline was begging for more power we only need power to complete this team. This team isn’t going to opening day tomorrow. There is a ton of time to add players and round out a roster with adding to the prospect depth to facilitate a trade and more money to sign free agents. The team isn’t even close to being done. Relax
Much harder to add cheap power than to add cheap contact. And you’re adding 4 year of control and extremely good defensive schools
Skills
That’s not true. Sign Smoak or Cron. There’s your cheap power.
Smoak or Cron don’t compare to renfroe and that’s more money and less control. Renfroe is an elite defender, younger, cheaper and 4 years of control.
That’s not the point. Beside the fact that Renfroe isn’t an elite defender, it is much easier to get cheap power than a player like Pham cheap, unlike what you said. You can not find guys like Pham on the open market on the cheap. You can find guys like Renfroe though.
Renfroe isn’t an elite defender? What team do you follow? He got hosed out of a GG this year. 13 OF assists mean anything? +22 DRS mean anything?
Got hosed out of an All Star nod too. Stats were basically the same as David Dahl’s before you account for the fact that Dahl plays his home games in Coors Field.
Most Rays fans were not looking to subtract a power/contact hitter like Pham for a home run only batter! We had HR hitters before that stuckout more than anything and we had a 500 team. We know contact hitting is way more important than HRs. Unless Pham goes blind is the only way this trade looks positive for the Rays,…Oh! the Salary dump is a Rays positive as usual.
Like I said and I’ll say it again, contact and OBP guys are much easier and cheaper to find than cheap power. Any power hitting free agent is $5m plus, nobody is begging for contact and OBP guys you can find those about anywhere and the Rays have a bunch of them.
The Rays ranking in the bottom of the league in runs scored isn’t gonna get you very far in the postseason, you can score runs a lot easier if you get a walk and a single and a 3 run HR than trying to get hit after hit after hit to try and score. You act like Pham was the only OBP guy the Rays have and now the team is doomed lol. Hoping for a bounce back and health for Wendle and D rob and possibly some young guys coming up for contact is good and how you have the 40 HR power the team needed. Pham was far from making the team successful all by himself. Relax there’s a whole offseason to go
Totally wrong contact and OBP guys win games you’ll see when Mr. K strikes out more than you can imagine with runners on base
Wait until you get to watch Renfroe playing elite defense and hitting bombs in the AL East bandboxes. You will forget Pham pretty fast.
And you love him to when he strikes out more than anyone on the team in key game situations
You don’t know what you’re talking about.
That would be Wil Myers. And striking out while looking not even swinging.
Pham has an eye disease, keratoconus, that can become a problem without notice. He isnt cured. It is stabilized. So there is always a risk.
We already Have young B Lowe, Wendle and Braseau MLB, We have W Franco, Brujan , Lucas Fox and the 1st round pick last year,all in the lower minors. Why another? Pitchers maybe but we have no need for Edwards unless we trade very soon.
So Tampa acquires another two way player. Whatever Tampa does, the other teams do soon thereafter. They will soon resemble a little league team, bringing in guys from other positions to pitch.
Think the rays gave up the two way player.
This move makes the Padres better and Rays worse withe the Padres non contenders and the Rays contenders. Makes not sense.
I was down with the Urias deal because the Padres were dealing from a position of organizational depth for a position of need, but this one I can’t quite wrap my head around? When Urias was dealt, I am assuming every Padre fan envisioned Edwards as the heir apparent to 2nd base. Now it looks like Owen Miller in a year or two and then Abrams to follow?
I like the Pham for Renfroe part of the deal, but having to add the 5th best prospect from one of the top farm systems seems a little steep. Cronenworth seems to be an interesting prospect in his own right, but doesn’t seem to have the upside of Edwards. Looks like the Padres will try to make him their 26 man, who they can use in the field and on the mound.
Of course, I have never seen either prospect play in person and am only going off of the reports I found, so really, my opinion means nothing.
You need to give up something good to get something good. Trading Pham for Renfroe straight up would have made no sense for Tampa.
We’ve still got decent middle infield prospects in the system. We got better in the outfield. This can only be seen as a big win for the Padres’ ambitions to contend in 2020.
This is a great trade for 2020, maybe not so much long term. And I realize you have to give to get, but the Padres #5 prospect would be #1 or #2 in about 1/2 of the leagues farm systems. I just think the return for Tampa was a little rich and there is apparently another prospect heading Tampa’s way. However, if Pham brings life not only to the OF but to the clubhouse, I will be on board with this deal.
Yet the Rays will prob win more games in the AL East then the Padres will in the NL West
As per usual with the Padres, they are probably going to regret this soon.
Terrible trade for the Rays. Pham was a leader who brought intensity and led by example. Renfroe strikes out, cannot take a walk, and somehow managed an ops below .800 even w 46 home runs. Ugh.
46 homeruns? Maybe a little too much red this early, might be safer to stay on the sideline
Oh yeah, mixing Tommy “Leon” Pham with Johnny Hustle won’t turn out badly at all…
Funny Padres fans are hating the trade as are Rays fans. Rays are NOT done making moves and will replace Pham the best they can. I have no idea why anyone questions the Rays making trades, either they’ll use this prospect in another trade to acquire another player or they’ll use the money saved to re sign García and a guy like Kendrick to replace Pham. It’s what the Rays need it’s a win for both teams, Rays have high contact guys and high on base guys already but very little power, Renfroe is the big bat all these fans were praying for and asking for more homeruns and cheaper than any free agent out there and younger and much more control. Yes the culture changes a little without pham but the culture was there before Pham got there. Rays receive a very good prospect and a pure power hitter that they’ve been dying for and lose a high contact good on base average defender and baddddd baserunner. Not everyone will ever agree on a trade but I do believe executives know more than fans and they are saying Padres will regret this
I don’t regret this trade at all. I’ll take a proven MLB player over an untested prospect any day. Pham is a proven MLB performer.
We knew what we had in Renfroe. I personally don’t think there’s a lot of “untapped potential” there – WYSIWYG. Decent player, but definitely room to upgrade for the Padres.
Like any prospect, Edwards may or may not pan out. Scouts bet on potential and upside but for every prospect that pans out, 10 do not. The same logic goes for Urias – fans tend to overrate prospects most of the time. 2 years ago, every Padres fan was talking about how good Anderson Espinoza was going to be. I’m still waiting.
Factor in very different agendas and windows of contention, and I think this is a trade which suits both organisations well.
And then suddenly out of left field…
Preller is becoming this off-seasons Jerry Dipoto.
I’ll take apologies from all those who said I was crazy when I said Pham was all done in TB.….
Not a bad deal actually; given that EVERYBODY knew TB was in heat to move Pham. Renfroe’s not bad.; the K’s are terrible, but he has better power, defense and in game skills than Pham; Pham’s baserunning and route running were actually comically bad. But the Rays get the better of the deal on the prospect side. Though they have several middle IF “prospects”, Brujan is really a CF, wunder-boy Franco a 3B. Edwards will excel at 2B and his contact skills are extremely good. Cronenworth’s a fun guy; good bat-to-ball, can pitch some. Wouldn’t surprise me at all to see him as the Padre’s 26th man.
Pretty fair deal. Rays get out from under Pham’s money, replace him with some RH power (which they desperately need) and improve an already very good system. They’ll be a strikeout pitcher’s paradise with Renfroe and Zuninio, but they were never going to get full value for Pham.
Yep…..it’s all about the money. The Rays way.
Preller continues to perplex me. I just don’t get this trade. I already knew Renfroe needed to go…but why not for a SP? Why another OF’er? I mean, he got a good return, Pham is a good hitter, but again…OF logjam. I think Preller would have been better off getting an arm for Renfroe. Plus, he gives up control and adds payroll. Preller is manic, he’s feeling the pressure of being on the hot seat. He’s making trades just to look busy.
Why are you evaluating the offseason this early? The Winter Meetings haven’t even started yet and for all you know, Preller could be working on several additional trades to both address SD’s need for starting pitching and get rid of the surplus in the outfield.
Judge him in April 2020, once we start the season. Until then, why not assume that SD’s front office is very much aware of the situation you just described, and are doing something about it?
David Price for Wil Myers, with other pieces moving, continues to make all the sense in the world.
It really depends what the other pieces would be, but I agree that this could be the basis for a trade. The biggest problem is that Boston’s farm is pretty bare, so unless a 3rd team gets involved, I don’t know what else Boston could ship SD’s way to sweeten the deal a little.
Although Price is a superior player at this stage, the money still owed to him makes it prohibitive for SD, especially given both players’ respective ages – and the chances that Price will likely regress down the road, while Myers COULD (not will) bounce back somewhat.
Price and cash could work, but a 3rd team getting involved makes the most sense..
I tend to see it from the other side. Price isn’t at all bad; too expensive obviously, but more than serviceable. And likely better in the NL, in a better pitcher’s park.
Myers has little/no value; got the big money, started mailing it in before the ink was dry. And the Sox can’t send any money, since that wouldn’t be advantageous from a Luxury Tax point of view.
The “prospect capital” would have to go from the Padres to the Sox, not the other way around.
It’s a hard sellon either side.
Price has been more productive, but he was also hurt two the last three years, and he’s got 96 million left, 36M more than Myers. If you amortize DP’s salary by the likely number of games he’ll pitch, yikes, it’s like $50M per from now on.
The Padres would want cash back, because the 12M extra they’d pay Price per year could get somebody better than DP. The Red Sox would like to clear even some of Price’s salary, but it’s not a burning need for them. They can carry Price’s money even as a part-timer.
Really difficult to find a deal when the numbers and payroll are that different.
Myers and Yates for a top SP is the next move don’t be surprised when it happens
We’ll also pick up a veteran C and we’ll be looking a whole lot better
No one is trading a “top SP” for Wil Myers. Deal with it.
Per the Padres beat writer on MLB.com, Preller is sticking with the pitchers he’s got.
Next year is not looking good.
You’re comparing one of the best GMs over the past 4 years compared to a GM who has been very criticized and has hit on a few moves all together. It’s not hard to see who put more time, evaluations and all around thought into their moves. I really really really wouldn’t question’s the Rays FO. They are farrrrr from done this offseason. Believe that
Padres win trade for the now
As a Rays fan, I don’t mind the deal. Pham is a fine player, but they save around 5M and get a power upgrade. Seemed like the rays had a ton of 15-20 HR guys. Admittedly I don’t know anything about Edwards, only his prospect ranking, but this could be a piece for another deal. I was hoping they’d sign EE. I honestly am surprised they haven’t moved Kiermaier, but the entire female population would quit coming to the games if he was dealt.
Boycott Petco! Down with brown! The only place where spend comes before win is the dictionary. This fan ain’t spending money or time on punk Preller until he is gone and they win. Outrage that he can’t move Myers.
You expect him to move Myers’ contract…and you hate this move?
You will REALLY hate what they will have to give up to move Will.
Stay/Move back to Indiana
Laters we don’t need a bandwagon fan anyways
See ya no problem just move on and stop your whinning
Amazing how many people like this trade for SD. I think SD got killed in this trade. Over the past two seasons, Pham’s bWAR/650 is 3.8. Renfroe’s is 3.5, but you get 4 years out of Renfroe and only two out of Pham. And Pham’s two seasons are age 32-33, while Renfroe’s years are 28-31.
In addition, Renfroe’s numbers were dragged down by injuries in 2019. Through the AS game last year, he had a .921 OPS with 27 HRs in 266 ABs. The K’s are worrisome, as is the K/W,
I wouldn’t be surprised to see Renfroe have a better season even in 2020.
When you see how many times Renfroe K’s in key situations you re think your statement
Renfroe wasn’t injured in 18 and 17 when his OBP was still sub par.
The Padres clearly wanted to add OBP and have done so.
Hello, I’m from the future… and you should change your opinion, Joe.
Just kidding, man. Always respect your outtakes here. Just curious how you feel about this deal now, with 20/20 hindsight vision. Crone is a legit player and many posters glossed right over his part in this trade.
Holler if you can, aloha!
So, let me get this straight. The Rays get the younger, cheaper player, who can hit HRs, and get a prospect….and the Rays are the team that has found ways to win with these type of moves, while the Padres have been losing for a while now, usually because of dumb moves…but everyone thinks the Padres won this trade?
Have you looked at any other stats besides homeruns for Hunter Renfore? He swings at bad pitches, doesn’t walk, and can really only hit a fast ball. His defense is above average but you have expect a trade off. When I watched Renfroe at the plate I really expected either a home run or a strike out because base hits were almost non existent.
Xavier Edwards projects like a Dee Gordon. It’s too soon to say that he’ll even get to his level but his skill set is similar. Padres have a few other prospects who are equal to Edward and are more higher in the farm system/
Padres got a good contact hitter who gets on base and can steal bases. He’s two years older but with the win now mindset for Preller, this makes sense. As a Padres fan, I can live with this trade. I want to see offense action and with this trade, we can expect or have higher hope tthat it’ll happen.
I don’t know anything with the minor leaguer we got in the deal but his numbers are encouraging. Again, for a win now, offense minded off season, this fits the mold.
In fairness, Renfroe had his K issues at least manageable before the foot injury mid-year. Not great, not even good, but manageable. He should have told the team how seriously he was hurt and taken a DL stint.
Which prospects are equal to Edwards and higher in the minors? Abrams is his best match and he’s 19 years old. Owen Miller doesn’t have X’s athleticism, speed, or plate discipline, he can’t possibly move to CF, and he’s not a switch-hitter.
Don’t sleep on Miller, a Pedroia-clone (even looks like the Dirt Dog). No, he probably doesn’t reach that level of performance, but TREMEMDOUS in game-skills; granted, at 2B instead of SS. Miller played at AA the entire season, extremely rare for a 2018 draft choice; and handled it superbly. No, the “quick-twitch” athleticism isn’t there, but there’s a lot of ball player in Owen Miller. Edwards’ ceiling is obviously higher, but Miller has a much, much higher floor.
Nothing against Miller. A quick and dirty comp might be a RH Greg Garcia. You can win with guys like that.
Skipping High A is impressive, but still, he played three years in the Big 10. Edwards faced a lot of college arms as a 19 year old in Low A and took them to school.
They sat Renfroe for 3 days after the Pittsburgh series when he broke the bone in his foot, but never bothered to do an xray or MRI. The fault in his decline in the 2nd half is squarely on the Padres training staff.
fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=15464&posi…
Renfroe hits sliders and changeups the best.
Not everyone. As a Padre fan I’m surprised we had to give up a prospect the caliber of Edwards. Tampa got what they wanted and needed, and their track record speaks for itself.
Pham is likely to be better than Renfroe the next two years — not definitely, but likely — and Preller is under the gun to win more. The last time he tried to radically remake the entire roster it turned to Poo Mountain in a hurry. At least in this case, unlike Profar (and the MIL trade, to some extent), he managed to land an actual proven major leaguer.
That’s exactly how I feel. Pham is a pretty decent player, but imho, so is Renfroe. And as a RS fan, I wanted him as part of a Betts trade (I also wanted Urias). Like you, I am thinking Phan is better, but not automatically better.
If the only concern was this year, it wouldn’t be terrible, but I’d bet real money that Renfroe’s WAR over four years is better than Pham’s over two years.
And SD’s window is more like the next 2-7 years instead of the next 1-2 years. Of course, Preller’s personal window might only be one year.
If Renfroe’s 4 year WAR edges out Pham’s two year that’s fine. As long as Pham’s 2 year edges out Renfroe by a good margin. It’s not like SDP doesn’t have OF prospects on the way. They just got Grisham-they have Trammell. Margot’s in CF. And god forbid they still have Wil Myers hanging around.
The issue is how much they gave up for the upgrade. That piece was Xavier Edwards. But, like a politician that wants to keep his job, Preller is focused on getting better tomorrow.
With the way Preller is handing out prospects this winter, I’m afraid of who he might give up to move Myers.
We might be better off keeping him as a RH platoon bat. Hosmer absolutely needs one, if Tingler has the stones to do it to Mister Ground Ball Can’t Field Team Leader. Myers could spell Grisham and Pham and be a threat against LH relievers, now that they have to stay in the game for 3 batters. It’s a lot of money for that job but even a deep farm isn’t limitless.
Yeah I think you’ve purged enough top prospects at this point. If it were to go out and get a TOR SP that would be a different story. But I certainly would not attach a prospect to Myers at this point. You could argue that the Pads would’ve been better off trying to dump Myers w Edwards attached. I think Preller would’ve done that if he didn’t think there’s a strong chance he’d get fired this year.
But this definitely sucks. He spent all this time amassing the prospect ammunition. It’s underwhelming that all you’ve netted from 2 top 100 guys + Lauer and Renfroe was 2 years of Tommy Pham, Zach Davies, and Trent Grisham….. Hopefully there’s more progression to Grisham’s game. Because right now it looks like a lateral move from Renfroe.
Pham for just Xavier Edwards is a heavy price to pay. Let alone w Renfroe and apparently a prospect to be named later. That’s the part that would also worry me if I were a Pads fan. I don’t know what that PTBNL might be. After seeing what the Rays got from Pitt; I’d be mildly concerned
On a certain level, this reminds me of Preller’s trade for Jon Jay.
Pham will be 32 on opening day, and he’s already showing signs of regression. I guess it depends on how you define “better,” but my money is on Renfroe over the next two years.
Bingo
Marlinsfanbase…..so you’re judging this trade based in how these GM’s have traded in the past instead of on the players themselves?
Seems logical…..for a Marlins fan.
So let me ask it this way for those that seem to have difficulty analyzing this through Homer Goggles.
So, the Rays who have proven that they know what they’re doing in their front office with moves just like this and AJ Preller doing what he does, so many of you think that Preller won a trade against the Rays in a trade that they got exactly what they wanted from the Padres?
Padres did win the trade
Some of our most vocal fanbase is also the part that knows the least about wiining baseball.
Great now move some contracts and pick up another relief arm or 2
I can’t wait for Pham’s first interview with the Union Tribune.
He definitely plays with a chip on his shoulder from being in the minors for so long but he will say what’s on his mind. the SI interview still has me cracking up. Likely was his ticket out of STL.
Ya, Pham’s got the weight of the world on his shoulders…it’s always the other guy’s fault….To be fair, the eye condition isn’t fun, and no doubt fits into the calculus.
Yet another angle is you have to consider what happens to Renfroe’ power if MLB switches away from the super ball, rumored to be happening. That leaves a very good defensive OF who doesn’t hit well (Renfroe) for a line-drive hitting machine who authors the “Pham Phollies”; it’s only a matter of time in any game until he does something bizarre (reference to Dennis Eckersly for that one).
It’s still, with acknowledgement to the financials, pretty fair, again considering how desperate the Rays were to dump Pham. Cronenworth may play several positions, but like a lot of Rays’ farmhands, doesn’t play any of them well; but he may have real promise on the mound and as a PH. Edwards’ ceiling is considerably higher.
It sounds like Edwards ceiling is being a Dee Gordon type player Good bat control and speed but no power and a good glove.
The exact comparison I thought of as well
Padres are trying to win now. Prospects are a form of currency. They have more prospects then cash. .
The bottom line is the Padres mlb team is better today then it was yesterday. Renfroe homers and that is it offensively. Also think his defense will decline vs last year.
Obp has been a huge problem for the padres for years now. We could see new position players at ever position except 3rd, ss and first.
People want to complain when they trade mlb talent like they did for a top prospect like trammel. Then complain when they trade a top prospect for a proven mlb player.
The only thing that makes those people happy are when the Padres are guaranteed winners. Which doesnt happen often.
I am happy the padres owners are willing to spend and want to win now, is it a little misguided or early perhaps but it’s been a decade.
It’s not always the same people complaining about the trades. I had no problem unloading Reyes. He’s a big fun guy who couldn’t play defense at all and was going to get hurt if he kept trying.
I do worry that Preller may not be a good negotiator. He seems to focus on what he wants to the exclusion of cost. It goes back to his first offseason, when he gave up talent like Grandal and Turner. Profar should not have cost any prospect we’ve ever heard of. Hosmer should not have been signed, period.
Pham is a very good addition, but if one of the shrewd GMs had made this move, they wouldn’t have given up a player like Edwards. It would have been Renfroe and something from the Ty France-Buddy Reed-Hudson Potts level.
Fair point, but with ownership making short-term success the imperative, hard to fault Preller for making moves that are on the short-sighted end of the spectrum.
Appreciate the posts from both of you on this (simodine and billy baroo)
It’s why Padres are poorly run from top to bottom. What successful organizations operate like this with threats etc.
I think it’s an important point, and I’ve made it myself. When you threaten the GM publicly, the other 29 GMs know that they have additional leverage.
I agree its AJ’s time to win now and you’ll see a few more trades one for a SP and one for a veteran C.
You mean like Steinbrenner did every year?
The deal would not have happened with those three names you mentioned
And you know this how? Were you in the room?
Then why are they spending more money on Davies, Profar, and Pham than they would have on comparable players in Lauer, Urias, and Renfroe?
Pads Fans…..”comparable players”?
It’s about getting on base!
How many of Renfroe and Reyes’s home runs last year were solos?
A bunch!
It was no secret Prellers #1 priority was to add OBP……Grisham,Profar and Pham are directly because of this and Renfroe was never gonna get on base enough.
Machado and Hosmer and others will finally have guys in base to drive in….
It’s about scoring runs. OPS>OBP when comparing power hitters.
The first time Renfroe hits one of his famous late inning game changer home runs Rays fans will like this trade much better.
They’ll hate it when he K’s three times as much as hitting a bomb there’s basically no in between for Renfroe
The first time they see him make play after play in the field and throw after throw to get outs that Pham would have had no shot at they will like him. Once he starts out like he did last year hitting .250 with 27 HR in the first half they are going to love him.
Tommy Pham is undoubtedly a better player than Renfroe today, but he is going to be 32 in March and has already shown he is in decline on offense and defense. He also makes 3 times as much as Renfroe.
Where Renfroe was the best defensive corner OF in baseball last season, Pham was league average. Then Preller throws in a top 100 prospect on top of that.
This is a short term move that will bite the Padres in the behind after 2020.
Who cares who makes what, we need a guy who can lead off for the Friars that’s Pham and not a guy who K’s 2 times a game
You are really dense. Pham makes 3 times more than Renfroe for only marginally better and declining performance. Profar makes 10 times what Urias makes for worse performance. Davies makes 8 times what Lauer does for no better performance.
Together they make $15 million more for only marginally better performance if any at all and the Padres had $15-20 million to spend this offseason. These 3 moves mean the Padres cannot bring on anyone that can actually help the team win more.
Pham is not a leadoff hitter. He is a #2. Tatis will leadoff.
Renfroe is a power hitter. Strike outs come with the territory. Before he broke a bone in his foot in late June, Renfroe was hitting .250 with a 900+ OPS and 24 HRs. That is something Pham is not capable of. Top that off with being the best defensive corner OF in baseball last season. Another thing Pham is not capable of.
In addition, Pham has 2 years of team control and Renfroe has 4. Urias had 6 while Profar has one. Lauer had 5 years while Davies has 2.
Is it even possible for you to get anything right? Is it too much to ask that you at least look stuff up before you post?
I’m glad you’re a padres fan and can see clearly, I’m not saying you said the Rays one but you point out the facts equally for both teams, Rays may not be better right this minute but it won’t take very long for that to change. Very smart and unbiased response. Mad respect
Since you know Pham will bat leadoff, maybe you can use your insight to tell everybody why Preller had Hosmer hitting 4th with three 30HR guys in the lineup?
Here’s what Fangraphs Ben Clemens had to say about Renfroe …
“But if Pham has some risk, Renfroe is another level entirely. He bounced around the periphery of the San Diego roster in 2017 and 2018, with enough power to be interesting but enough swing-and-miss to be worrisome. 2019 was more of the same — he accomplished the dubious double of swinging at balls more often than league average while swinging at strikes less often than average on his way to a 98 wRC+.
“Expecting him to replicate his strong season on defense is foolish. But there really does seem to be something there: Statcast agrees his glovework was notably better in 2019, and his first step is a real asset, making him excellent on short reaction time plays. If he can maintain half his defensive gains while slightly reining in his strikeouts, he could be a useful player for the Rays this year, though as it’s his first arbitration year, they might be looking to move him again next year.”
I agree. Renfroe won’t be around for Tampa in 2021.
blogs.fangraphs.com/rays-padres-act-to-type-in-tom…
That’s Preller speciality
I think it was a good move by Preller and the Rays. The Rays end up with a rh’ed power bar and a prospect and the Padres get a better all-around player plus an if’er who can pitch a little. I wonder if the Rays like Edwards or are planning on trading him.
The PTBNL better not be of any significance
Renfroe is not the primary piece going to Tampa.
LMFAO. Of course Edwards is. NOT!
The Rays are smarter than to trade only for a 19 year old 2B with no power that is in high A when their farm system is filled with middle infielders. Franco, Adames, Brujan. All much better and more highly rated young players than Edwards.
The Rays saw what you obviously missed. That Renfroe was hitting .250+ with a. 900+ OPS and 24 HRs when he broke a bone in his foot in late June in Pittsburgh. They also saw one of the best defensive OF in the game. But you missed all that.
Typical. So are your one liners with no logic or facts to back it up.
In Edwards defense, he slots in at #6 on the Rays prospect list.
Edwards will be leaguewide top 40 in 6 months. Dude does not get out.
Good God, how many times do you have to tell us that he broke his foot? The Padres won this trade. Renfroe is a whiff machine with a low OBP. That .294 career OBP is pathetic. The Padres are trying to win NOW! They gave out the big contract to Machado and they’re going all in to win. They got the better player to help them compete. They don’t care about the age difference or salaries. So long and have a great day tomorrow spreading the word about the broken foot bone.
The hilarious part is that he didn’t break his foot
Logic and facts …
“Padres’ outfielder Hunter Renfroe will undergo surgery next month to remove a bone spur from the top of his right foot.
Renfroe will have plenty of time to heal up and return to full health before the start of spring training. He’s also adamant that the injury did not play a role in his struggles this season.” — AJ Cassavell, Sept. 29, 2019
***
“For Tampa, Xavier Edwards is the reason for the trade.”
“The Rays system is crowded with infielders; even ignoring Wander Franco, Vidal Brujan and Lucius Fox looked excellent in 2019, and the big league club has Brandon Lowe, Willy Adames, Daniel Robertson, and even Joey Wendle in the picture somewhere. But Edwards is young enough, and the Rays are cost-conscious enough, that he might be a generation behind them in the majors, and there’s always center field, where Kiermaier is slowing down at the plate.”
“But if Pham has some risk, Renfroe is another level entirely. He bounced around the periphery of the San Diego roster in 2017 and 2018, with enough power to be interesting but enough swing-and-miss to be worrisome. 2019 was more of the same — he accomplished the dubious double of swinging at balls more often than league average while swinging at strikes less often than average on his way to a 98 wRC+.”
— Ben Clemens, Fangraphs
blogs.fangraphs.com/rays-padres-act-to-type-in-tom…
Now they get a guy in Pham that may need TJ surgery.
Bone spurs dont happen on the top of your foot. They happen on the bottom where the calcium deposits form. Heels, the sides and bottoms of toes, the ball of the foot. You actually believed that garbage about it being on the top of his foot?
They also happen near joints. Sometimes, pieces of calcium can break off and require surgery to remove “loose bodies.”
Pirates can trade Marte and OF prospect Cal Mitchell or 2B/SS Bae to the Padres for catching prospect Luis Campusano, LHP prospect Ryan Weathers & OF Edward Olivares.
Hunter Renfroe has always been a similar player to former Padre AND, Tampa Bay Ray: Ryan Schimpf in terms of batting average (Mendoza Line)/High Home Run Level.
Schimpf? You are delusional.
Renfroe hit .216 the second part of 2019 with nagging injuries I wish the Rays the best with him but the Friars came out better on this deal
Actually, Renfroe was a lot worse than that in the second half …
.161/.263/.299 … with 75Ks in 298PA (hey, facts!)
It’s interesting to note that his OF defense improved dramatically last year. He was really good. But I wonder … if the bone spur (fact!) hurt him so much at the plate, how come it didn’t affect his defense? You know, getting a jump, running down fly balls?
I suppose there’s some logic in there.
Typo: 75Ks in 198 PA.
Yes, there is some logic. You ever have a foot injury? You ever play a sport? Some types of motion hurt more than others. E.g., pushinhg off the side of the foot vs. running in a straight line off the ball of the foot. You don’t know any more than any one else.
And Clemens is not an “authority” just because he blogs on Fangraphs – he’s a spreadsheet nerd.
So, getting a jump, turning, pivoting, stopping and planting won’t hurt in the outfield nearly as much as taking a short stride in the batter’s box?
Sure.
By the way, Clemens is a pretty smart dude. And “spreadsheet nerds” now dominate baseball.
It’s the direction of the pressure. I would think a know-it-all such as yourself would know that.
Clemens is a blogger, not a statistition. They don’t dominate baseball, they just dominate the conversation. This is due to so many people thinking that using those advanced numbers makes them sound smart. It doesn’t Ever see “Good Will Hunting?” Remember the bar scene?
The irony (and hypocrisy) of calling me a know-it-all. Pfft.
Anyway, I was speaking directly to the mass migration of the industry toward advanced analytics. Half the GMs in baseball now are Ivy League grads … you know, spreadsheet nerds. And every team has an entire department of spreadsheet nerds helping the GM spreadsheet nerds make their decisions. And a bunch come from Fangraphs and Baseball Prospectus.
So honestly, I’ll prefer Clemens’ reasoning and review over your barstool analysis.
Good Will Hunting? Jesus.
Bone spurs happen on the bottom of the foot, not the ankle. If you believe it was just bone spurs I have some ocean front property in Arizona you should love.
Where else can you acquire a 30+HR guy for around $3.4mil? Rays needed to replace the lost HRs by Travis & Garcia.
Only from Preller. He’d probably try to trade PETCO Park and cash for a couple of A-ball prospects and a 30-year old backup outfielder.
You can get CJ Cron for a lot less.
Cron is a bad 1B. Renfroe is one of the best corner OF. Not comparing apples to apples.
TRADE Advice/Opinions….
This of course is completely out to everyone but I’d be interested to hear from the Cubs faithful. Most of the hearsay regarding the Braves is that Anthropolous will need to swing at least 1 trade, maybe 2 at the Winter Meetings due to the Rangers being on the cusp of signing Rendon which will immediately cause the Nationals to start spending on Stras & Donaldson. So the rumblings that I’ve heard are the Braves pivoting to the Cubs for Bryant. First thing I’d like to ask is if you guys feel Bryant will lose his grievance case and have 2 years of control to work with? Second, and this mainly is my opinion, where the Braves can help the Cubbies could be in CF & Bullpen. Would a Shane Greene, Ender Inciarte, Austin Riley, Bryce Wilson for Kris Bryant get it done? My feeling is the Cubs could slot Inciarte in at Center & move Heyward to the Corner with Schwarber. With the Cubs bullpen, outside of Kimbrel, Wick, & Chatwood no one seems to stick out. Shane Greene to me slides into that 8th inning role. Riley would eventually replace Bryant but for now be their 4th Outfielder & the Cubs bring in a Vet like Shaw or Frazier on a 1 year deal. Bryce Wilson adds to their prospects. For the Braves they fill a major void at 3rd, turn their attention to Costellanos to play RF full time move Acuna back to Centerfield. Use the rest of their money to bring in a Jose Perez on a 1 year deal & replace Shane Greene on a 1 year deal with Treinen.
What are your thoughts?
I think the Cubs would laugh at this offer.
My thoughts are your Braves are lucky to have not included Austin Riley in any sort of trade, especially for KB.
It’s okay cause Renfroe will either get traded or DFA’d in 2 years when his homerun total will drive up his arbitration number. It’s Corey Dickerson all over again.
Players who have averaged a 20/20 season since 2017:
Mookie Betts
Francisco Lindor
Jose Ramirez
Christian Yelich
Tommy Pham
Enough said on who won this trade
Short-sighted
Get back to us at the end of June. And why are you using OBP with a power hitter? OPS is more significant. Especially since you want to keep bringing up Pham’s “power.”
Henry Very good observation about Pham
We don’t know who the ptbnl is yet so it is difficult to accurately say who won this trade shortly after it is completed. Also need to wait to see if Edwards pans out. Check back in a couple years. Then we may know who won the trade.
At this point we have to wait to see if the trade is even finalized because of Pham’s elbow injury.
You mean Pham who has declined in production every season since 2017 and who is injured badly enough right now that the trade has not been finalized?
AJP is at Vegas with 20 $100 CHIPS + 5 $500 chips (which is his Mortgage house payment and he wont touch unless is for a refinance that makes it easier to achive his goals Gore/Patino/CJ Abrams/Trammell and Campusano).. He also has 30 or so $50 chips (yes Padres are like 55 prospects deep./ deep as in 31-55 would make most Top 30 MLB clubs lists)… So he has plenty of Capital to deal from within, Can’t use 20 SP prospects in 20 or 21 and thats how many will be ready and/or pushing at the door by then so if you can acqyuire talent for Weathers/Cantino/Nix/Bolanos/Morejon/Quantrill/Lawson/Thompson/Lucchesi/Baez etc etc etc,, you go get it, where are these guys going to slot in SDP with Patino/Gore/Lamet/Paddack/Richards (gone in 2021)/Davies/— and Co.. I mean you keep 3-4 for insurance but the rest you flip to get better– The Pen? is pretty loaded as well – Yates/Pomz/Castillo/Munoz/Bednar/Winger/Perdomo/Strahm/ and a host of 100’s in AA/AAA… — so yeah we may give up the next Kubler for 3 yrs of Contreras (for example) but these moves have to be made– 2B/SS is just as deep in the system so Edwards and Urias both who lack POP (especially Edwards 1HR in 600+ ABs) and at best are .750-.780 OPS guys — Urias without speed (think 5-10 SB) and Edwards with elite speed (think 40+ SB) are not likely to become Altuve/Lindor or even Turner types…
This is a pretty even trade. Yes Pham hits for a better average but Renfrow has more pop and is younger. Pretty good move by both clubs
I don’t think there is a “winner” in this trade. (In fact, I abhor the notion of winning/losing a trade.) Both teams did what they needed to do.
The Rays saw an OF (Pham) who has performed at his peak for the past 3 years and saw decline coming. The Rays are really smart people. May be the smartest in baseball. And they have to operate on a limited budget. They saw increasing salary and an eventual decline in productivity. As Fangraphs noted, Tampa doesn’t move players approaching free agency, they move players during arbitration. Budget. And they did what was right for them. And despite moving a productive and popular player, they still look at the stands every night to see the regular 6,000 in that dreary ballpark.
The Padres got Pham to be the player he’s been over the next two years. No secret in San Diego that they are in a more “win-now” mode, and Pham fits perfectly in the direction they’re going … a high OBP every day outfielder. Plus he plays with an attitude,, something they’ve needed for a long time. Renfroe showed a dramatic increase in outfield defense last year, no doubt. And he hits a lot of home runs. But they also are aware that last season’s defensive improvement may be a statistical outlier. Like offensive stats, defensive metrics can take a dramatic turn upward or downward in any particular season. Renfroe had never shown defensive prowess until last year. And some projections see him going back to norm next year.
Steamer sees Renfroe at 1.0 WAR next year with a return to norm defensively. Same with Depth Charts (1.1 WAR). Steamer sees Pham at 3.2 WAR next year, same with Depth Charts.
As I said, Edwards was the “get” in this transaction. Top speed (70) contact hitter. The contact rate is pretty astounding who can play multiple positions, including SS, which increases his overall value. If he turns into Chone Figgins (LA Angels), then they have a gem. If he turns into Dee Gordon, that’s OK. The only troubling thing with Edwards right now is exit velocity (83.2 mph), which doesn’t translate into extra-base power. He had one of the worst distance/batted ball rates at Ft. Wayne. But he’s 19 and has time to grow. And again, the Rays don’t suffer fools lightly.
In the end, both teams did what they needed to do.
I was with you until you started using Steamer projections. A “projection” is nothing more than a guess. Period. You’ve really got to balance your research – Fangraphs is good, but there are many others that reach different conclusions.
Oh, it’s not perfect, but Steamer is as good as any of them, basing their projections on mountains of data.
A guess is a guess. You can use a crystal ball, intuition, or numbers, but it’s still just a guess.
Had an exchange with Kyle Boddy yesterday. Kyle is the founder of Driveline Baseball, the data-driven development training center in Washington. They’ve created their own proprietary software called TRAQ, marrying the latest in testing and measurement technologies for pitchers. Matthew Boyd and Trevor Bauer are clients.
Anyway, I specifically asked Boddy which prediction service he used. The best and most accurate: Steamer.
By the way, Kyle was recently hired as the Reds Minor League Pitching Coordinator.
“Prediction service?!” OMG.
You’re mixing apples and oranges, with a specious appeal to authority. Irrelevant.
I’m familiar with Driveline. They do good work. They use technology on the physical side, not spreadsheets from afar. Or “predictions.”
57% of their projections were within 10% of the actual production.
If you wondered why they don’t put the projections right next to the actual production that is why.
You are in Sam Diego? Because he was interviewed here today.
In a lab, that would be statistically inconclusive at best. In a statistical control environment, that would be either a failure, or irrelevant, depending on the data being examined.
I don’t disagree that Edwards was the “get,” because the Rays have maintained a top farm system for a long time. But I also think they will be pleasantly surprised with Renfroe in their lineup every day.
You said the Rays are probably the smartest organization in baseball. Preller is definitely not. Do the math.
Decline isn’t coming for Pham, it’s already started happening two seasons ago. Over 10% per year of decline since 2017.
Renfroe was better in 2018 on defense than Pham. In 2019 he was the best. Trends show who a player really is on defense and Renfroe is trending up. Pham is trending down. You can spin it any way you want, but trading for 32 year old players that are already showing they are in decline rarely works out.
mlb.com/video/sources-pham-traded-to-padres?t=most…
Ken Rosenthal, also emphasizing the point that Edwards was the “get” for Tampa.
It had nothing about performances of the players….just money….baseball controlled by bean counters! Who cares if we win…just keep the labor cost down that is the whole story!
Still not finalized. Medicals came back negative and Padres are balking at injured Pham. Interesting turn of events.