Fan anger surrounding the Astros cheating scandal has been stoked by the unmitigated heat coming from MLB players. Usually reserved figures (Nick Markakis being the latest) have laid bare their intense anger over the cheating of their peers and the league’s handling of the matter to date.
This isn’t how it was supposed to go for MLB commissioner Rob Manfred and Astros owner Jim Crane when they released a double-whammy on January 13th. No doubt the hope was that suspending and then firing GM Jeff Luhnow and manager A.J. Hinch (along with some punishment for the team) would do much of the necessary work of moving past a now-infamous trashcan-banging scheme — a scheme, it is important to note, that was rooted out by a combination of long-held suspicion, investigative reporting, and dedicated public analysis (aided by the very same technology that has boosted MLB’s fortunes and allowed the Astros to hatch their scheme).
While Manfred orchestrated this approach to dealing with the situation, he surely hoped the furor would die down by the time Spring Training rolled around. Instead, players around the game have directed a steady and potent stream of venom at their opponents, as well as at Manfred and Crane. It’s a reaction without precedent, and Manfred is a self-proclaimed “precedent guy.”
The curveball was not preceded by a pair of loud bangs — but perhaps they still should’ve seen it coming.
The core problem with the league’s and the team’s handling of this situation doesn’t lie in the specifics of just what punishment was meted out. It’s inherent to the crisis-management approach that MLB and the Astros adopted. It all comes off as entirely driven not by what’s right, but by what is convenient, which is precisely the wrong tone when the underlying matter of concern relates to the essential fairness of the contest that itself underlies the entire economic structure of Baseball.
In somewhat different ways, over time, Manfred, Crane and many of the Astros players have left an impression of insincerity. Initial suspicions to that effect seemed to be confirmed by later statements and actions. And that leads to yet more suspicions, which is probably why we’re all now well versed in the unwritten rules of on-field clothing removal and Jose Altuve’s tattoo travails.
More to the point, this reinforced sense of disingenuousness completely undermines the reasoning behind the punishment that was and wasn’t imposed. And it provides the tinder and kindling needed to turn a trashcan bang into a dumpster fire.
The typically reserved Mike Trout says he “lost some respect for some guys” — which is a quietly immense issuance of judgment roughly akin to your beloved grandmother softly crying and informing you that you have let her down. He says it’s unfortunate that players involved in the illicit scheme have escaped punishment.
But wait … Manfred says this too! He said just the other day he’d have punished players “in a perfect world,” explaining why he couldn’t and didn’t. So why the loathing for the commish? Why is Justin Turner calling Manfred out in such stark terms (beyond the fact that the commissioner stepped on a rake by calling the commissioner’s trophy a “piece of metal”)?
Here’s why: the league only backed into the real explanation for its stance after it couldn’t get the players to pipe down about the subject. And when the truth finally emerged, it was accompanied by a baseless suggestion that the MLBPA is at least as much to blame for the lack of punishment of specific players.
Evan Drellich of The Athletic (subscription link) and Jeff Passan of ESPN.com each covered the matter from a fundamentally legal perspective, explaining why the league simply could not have imposed punishment of the Astros players. You can read on for the full details, but the essential reason is fairly straightforward: the league didn’t act in advance to install clear rules and therefore wouldn’t have had solid legal ground to stand on in suspending or fining players.
This is, on the one hand, a sensible and comprehensible explanation. Manfred acknowledges in an interview with Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic (subscription link) that his office wasn’t ahead of the game when it came to the use of technology to steal signs. Whether that was or wasn’t a major failure on the league’s part can be debated. But Manfred’s hands were tied when the Astros scandal hit.
Fine. But this isn’t what we heard when Manfred issued his report and disciplinary decision a month back.
That report spent more time expressly clearing Crane of any wrongdoing or responsibility than it did mentioning legal obstacles to disciplining players. Manfred wrote that it would be “difficult and impractical” to punish specific players, not because of these newly revealed reasons but because so many had participated and some now played for other teams. He said he placed blame primarily on the leaders (Luhnow and Hinch, especially) rather than on players; indeed, Manfred wrote that “some players may have understood that their conduct was not only condoned by the Club, but encouraged by it.” We were also told that players were granted immunity for their testimony — a practical necessity to reach the truth.
Even as it revises its stance — it’s not that the initial lack of punishment was necessarily right and appropriate; it’s that, oh man, we totally would’ve suspended them but we couldn’t! — MLB has rather obviously started a whisper campaign to draw the union into the circle of distrust. There is still no public reporting to tell us much of anything about what the MLBPA did or did not do between the emergence of the scandal and the issuance of Manfred’s report. But we’re now being treated to hints (or, in some cases, outright claims) that suggest the union hindered player punishment and was wrong for doing so.
Barring some compelling information that has yet to be revealed, this is flatly ridiculous.
First of all, it isn’t as if the union has stood firmly in the way of all punishments of players. We have rules in place that give Manfred broad leeway to punish players accused of domestic violence and certain other bad acts. There’s a broad regime dealing with performance enhancing drugs. In virtually all cases in recent years, suspensions have been worked out in advance without grievance actions to challenge them. And we’ve seen strong evidence that players writ large are not cool with cheating of the Astros’ kind.
Further, there is no indication here that the union was asked for its approval of any leaguewide system for dealing with illicit sign stealers — let alone that it obstructed any league effort to do so. To the contrary, Manfred acknowledges the league didn’t have quite enough foresight. Neither is there any suggestion that the union specifically gummed up actual attempts by the league to pursue discipline against Astros players.
Rather, the implied reasoning goes like this: Manfred told Luhnow he couldn’t use technology to steal signs. Whether or not he was on notice, Luhnow didn’t tell the players in sufficient detail. That lack of notice to the players made it legally impossible to punish players who eventually cheated (with the assistance of Luhnow’s staffers). And this is … the union’s fault?
Here’s how MLB.com’s Alyson Footer states things, via Twitter: “My only point is — if players are mad Astros weren’t punished, they need to talk to the union, since the union is the reason why players were granted immunity.”
It’s rather stunning to see such an intimation that the union is somehow at fault for advocating for the rights of individual players. The union’s purpose — its legal duty, in fact — is to represent all of its members and back their rights. It would be inconceivable to give up compelling legal arguments against punishment of specific players, even if the union was also amenable to working out clear-cut rules to prevent this sort of behavior in the future. It is disingenuous to interpret the negotiation of immunity in exchange for testimony otherwise when Manfred himself acknowledged that the league simply didn’t have legal standing to issue punishment.
Rosenthal seemingly casts aspersions in a different but still notable manner: “In fairness, Manfred was not alone in failing to see the future clearly. As far back as 2015, the Major League Baseball Players Association (MLBPA) expressed concerns to MLB about the rise of technology in the sport. The union, however, did not directly focus on the threat to the game’s integrity.”
The suggestion here, and in other similar accounts in the media, seems to be that the MLBPA shares equal responsibility with the commissioner’s office for studying and guiding the overall path of the game. One wonders whether the league really feels this way when it is bargaining with its players. As a practical matter, the union has nowhere near the resources or the breadth of responsibilities and capabilities enjoyed by Major League Baseball. Craig Calcaterra of NBC Sports has much more to say on this particular point.
Manfred has stated that the primary focus was on rooting out all the misdeeds so that we’d all know just what had happened. “We ended up where we ended up in pursuit of really, I think, the most important goal of getting the facts and getting them out there for people to know it.” Concepts of truth-finding, transparency, and opportunity for public reaction (even shaming) are perhaps all necessary building blocks to ultimate reconciliation — especially for a bad act that cannot be met with retributive justice. It’s an approach deployed in situations far more dire than this one. But while Manfred seems to acknowledge as much, this is precisely where the investigation and assessment of punishment has failed so badly.
Manfred’s report called it a player-driven scheme but didn’t name any current players, leaving it to speculation and intrigue to guess at just who had been at the center of the scandal. This only deepened the problems caused by the lack of punitive action.
Then, ensuing reporting showed that Manfred had not revealed a bevy of pertinent information he had regarding the involvement of the Astros’ front office. In what the kids call a self-own, Manfred appeared to mock Jared Diamond of the Wall Street Journal for digging up the “private letter” he had sent on the topic to Luhnow. Manfred did not explain why that information was provided to the suspended Luhnow but not the broader public. He did not explain how the facts he set forth in that letter related to his conclusions regarding the player-driven nature of the sign-stealing/conveying scheme. And he was bizarrely dismissive of the importance of his own communications to club officials — despite specifically premising the punishment of Luhnow and lack of punishment of Astros players upon a league-issued memorandum.
Now, we’re left wondering: Are the ’Stros players really regretful? Can we trust them when they say they didn’t cheat in 2019? How exhaustive was Manfred’s investigation of that matter? What of the still-open Red Sox situation? Just yesterday, Sox owner John Henry and CEO Sam Kennedy indicated that they’ve yet to even be interviewed as part of the league’s probe into the organization, which is set to wrap up next week. What actually is the league stance on player culpability in the use of technology to steal signs? Does anyone care about the cheating that took place, or only that it was exposed?
Just as the Astros’ words have largely rung hollow, the league’s own statements are now tumbling into an ever-widening credibility gap. “I hate where we are,” Manfred said of the scandal. Before MLB and the Astros can climb out of the hole they dug for themselves, they’ll need to backfill it with the unvarnished truth.
SirPartyAnimal
fire Manfred
Halo11Fan
I’ll post this again because it really doesn’t seem to be sinking in.
On the MLB site.
“In exchange for the players’ cooperation in the sign-stealing investigation, the MLBPA insisted that the players be given immunity.”
I doubt it will sink in now.
jaysfansince1977
Let me help you out as it seems it is not sinking in, Nobody cares about how you have reconciled the report on the MLB site! because it is on that site does not mean it is the truth? but you keep on keeping on!
Halo11Fan
So you are saying that is a lie? And that the MLBPA would have been fine with suspensions and that the MLBPA had nothing to do with the players speaking to the commissioner.
To that I say.. you’re delusional.
SheaGoodbye
No one cares about reality 99% of the time. People just want to go with their bandwagon hot takes and put their emotions before everything else. And I say this as someone who does not like Manfred.
The punishments should have been harsher without question—lifetime bans for the GM and manager, more draft picks lost, potential forfeiture of their WS title—but the players were never going to get hit with the suspension hammer.
It’s unfortunate, but that’s just the way things go with overpowered unions. They’d rather protect their own instead of doing what’s right for the game.
Halo11Fan
The punishment should have been harsher, but the players were never going to get punished without the blessing of the MLBPA.
As far as the World Series title, That was never going to happen. Hopefully a hundred years from now people will remember that the title was tainted.
SheaGoodbye
Of course, and I agree. Personally, I would’ve been satisfied with a harsher punishment even without such a forfeiture, although I understand why that would be a dealbreaker for other folks.
AnnaDad
Without looking it up, who won the 1919 World Series? Most people don’t know, but they know the White Sox lost in the infamous Black Sox Scandal.
Halo11Fan
Anna… I didn’t look it up. The Reds. I’m not going to look it up now, If I’m wrong I’m wrong.
I also bet I’m one of the few on this board to read Eight Men Out, I’m probably the only person on this board to read “Game of Shadows” and “Eight Men Out”.
Gager2140
The Reds is the correct answer
looiebelongsinthehall
I’m obviously glad Mike Fiers spoke up. That said, has he returned his ring?
goastros123
I don’t think he has and that’s why I don’t think he’s the hero some people make him out to be.
alexmiller6677
Honestly, and I’m a Red Sox fan, even publishing the names of those players who participated in these schemes and benefitted would have been a more just and efficient punishment. Keep the Ill gotten gains. But loose all credibility. Sponsors, and make less money over the rest of your career because of the bad press. That is where MLB has messed up.
It’s really hard to believe the testimony of immune players though in an admitted player initiated scheme who put the majority of the blame on employees who no longer work for their organization. Just seems to convenient to me to stomach.
I don’t think we will ever know the real truth. But if Astros, or Red Sox benefitted as players they should be named, and face the music for their participation. But I also think the investigation should be league wide; which will never happen because the commissioner wants this to go away as soon as possible, like a ginger baby.
Halo11Fan
alexmiller6677, I wish they would be named, but I don’t think we get the information we do if Manfred didn’t agree to the MLBPA demands.
If you would believe some, for the first time in history, the baseball was more concerned with protecting players than that the MLBPA.
I think such opinions are delusional
looiebelongsinthehall
One question that underlined the problem: why does there have to be a rule in place when it’s clear the players cheated?
alexmiller6677
I think MLB realized how inept they would appear if all the facts of the investigation came out. And are stonewalling in an attempt to make it disappear. Honestly, access to a video room is a relatively new thing, and they clearly didn’t put enough checks and balances or supervision into that. Even their 2018 attempts to reign it in, with essentially hall monitors, was a colossal f’ up.
Many people smarter than me have said it, do away with the managers challenge, add a 5th up for all replay calls in the broadcast booth, and blow up the in game video rooms. No video of current games available during the game.
goastros123
I have the Game of Shadows book.
Colorado Red
Think you hit the nail on the head.
Lifetime bans.
first 4 picks for 4 years.
No International FA above 50K.
And a 1 year ban for the owner.
prov356
123 – Fiers is a pitcher. How did he cheat to warrant him returning his ring?
fox471 Dave
Cincinnati Reds.
wordonthestreet
I think most people know it was the Reds
wordonthestreet
Who would he return it to
wordonthestreet
Manfred is not making anyone else return it so why should he
looiebelongsinthehall
The point is it’s a team game and no one is doubting that the Astros cheated. All should return their rings which now mean nothing but will always have significant monetary value to certain collectors. Fiers obviously feels the team was wrong so why not make a bigger statement which if the players voluntarily gave them up might actually start the healing process. If not voluntarily, I’ve already suggested shaming them by forcing the returns publicly.
Flapjax55
He and all the other pitchers are part of a tweak that falsely earned a ring.
Jamespfunk
The only reason the players aren’t getting suspended is Houston wouldn’t be able to field a team for the season and that would cost the league too much money. They are getting away with it due to strength in numbers. I don’t know why they haven’t been stripped of their title and rings though.
Also as stated in multiple recent articles the players could sue if suspended and probably win.
Bottom line the players are guilty, they do not seem remorseful, and they are getting away with it. For that reason most of America hates them and will continue to hate them.
I feel bad for their fans, because they were cheering on cheaters and won a championship from it that now seems worthless. Their fans will also be heckled from other teams fans, the fans didn’t cheat they are just stuck supporting a cheating organization.
bigjonliljon
I saw the movie though. Doesn’t that count
JayFan
He didn’t cheat personally, but he prospered from the cheating – he received the ring and bonus money.
jima-2
Me, too. Devoured both of those books. I want the Asterisks stripped of their title. Tired of cheating. Tired of lame pronouncements by lame corporate mouthpieces like Manfred.
Jbarger
doesnt the MLBPA represent ALL players in MLB…..not just the ones that cheated?
Halo11Fan
Yes, but they didn’t seem to want to protect the clean players during the steroid era.
There are players dead today because the MLBPA cared more about protecting cheaters than protecting players.
I think players speaking up now is a very welcome change.
To that I say it’s about time.
SheaGoodbye
And suspending players for merely knowing about illicit activities could set a precedent they wouldn’t be too keen on setting.
This is about the long game as much as anything.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Buck Weaver says hi
looiebelongsinthehall
I’ve said it before, the MLBPA has a duty to represent all so they should retain separate counsels for each group and back away. I doubt it would happen but the worst case would be if the players who didn’t cheat tried to replace Tony Clark and the other current union heads before the next CBA discussions begin in earnest.
Unclenolanrules
You should read the Warren Commission report on the Kennedy assassination. Lots of good “facts”.
Jeff Todd
Again, it is literally the legal obligation of the union to defend the rights of its members. It can’t just say “we waive the defenses of player X!” when a given disciplinary issue arises.
The union can also collectively bargain reasonable rules, as it has done in numerous disciplinary contexts.
looiebelongsinthehall
Jeff, the problem is the there’s a conflict when an attorney represents one group of clients over another so why is it allowed herein? What would happen if some players were to denounce the union and file suit to be removed from it since their interests aren’t being protected? I realize this is more theoretical than reality but is it not a fair question?
seth3120
You’re probably right but I wish you weren’t. A union in my eyes should fight for the betterment of the players as a whole. When it comes to a member seeking a competitive advantage over another I’d like to think that they’d defend the greater good of their members. But maybe they don’t allow themselves to draw such lines and defend each member like he was the only member.
jimmyz
Ok, then fire Manfred and Tony Clark!
Halo11Fan
Jimmy, at least it’s balanced. Out of the four legs of the chair, Astro Players, Astro Ownership, Manfred and MLBPA, the one that has the least at fault is Manfred, yet more ire seems directed at him than anyone else.
seth3120
After a long ongoing and what was supposed to be a very thorough investigation and report I think everyone needed the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. If that’s the deal he had to make with the players union and that’s the reason they’ve gone unpunished then don’t say it’s because it’s unpractical to suspend so many players some of which have moved on to other teams. I do think punishing the players would’ve been extremely difficult. Assessing how much each player played a part in it and how much each should receive is an issue alone. The fact that you’d also be punishing the team some of these players have moved onto in the process is another. Look at the impact it had on the Mets and BoSox(Red Sox may end up being deserving after that investigation is over).But I believe the main reason is they just wouldn’t have had much of an investigation without player cooperation. The portion ive heard of the investigation sounded like it came directly from Beltrans mouth
Benjamin560
It’s time for Rob Manfred to go!
keysox
Yes a clown
BlueSkies_LA
Fire Crane. All roads lead to ownership, not just in the specifics of the scandal, but in how it was handled by MLB. Shooting the messenger solves nothing, they’ll just hire another messenger to deliver the same message.
Colorado Red
You can’t fire the owner.
I would have suspended him for 1 year.
That would have sent a message to all other owners, big time.
prov356
Parkinson – how do you suspend an owner?
rawbar
Marge Schott did not get “suspended”, but got banned from day to day.
From Wikipedia:
“Due to Schott’s racist comments, a four-man committee was convened to investigate Schott. On February 3, 1993, she was fined $250,000 and banned from day-to-day operations of the Reds for the 1993 season. Jim Bowden took over as managing partner. Schott returned to work on November 1.
Schott’s comments about Hitler led MLB to ban Schott from day-to-day operations through 1998. On April 20, 1999, Schott agreed to sell her controlling interest in the Reds for $67 million to a group led by Cincinnati businessman Carl Lindner. At the time she was facing a third suspension, failing health and an expiring ownership agreement with her limited partners, who planned to oust her. Schott remained as a minority partner..”
SashaBanksFan
Donald Sterling Clippers. Not sure if procedures are similar between MLB and NBA but it seems if enough owners were in agreement they could press the issue
mfm420
steinbrenner actually got suspended twice (once for committing a felony, the other for hiring a low level mob guy to try and dig up dirt on dave winfield), both times allowed back in.
looiebelongsinthehall
Steinbrenner was suspended.
looiebelongsinthehall
Sorry mfm. I didn’t read your Steinbrenner comment before posting mine.
fox471 Dave
How exactly does one go about “firing” an owner. I’ll wait.
BlueSkies_LA
One forces him to sell the team, that’s how. Now, go ahead and tell me that has never happened.
BlueSkies_LA
Having answered your question it seems I am the one doing the waiting.
JayFan
Force the guy to sell and he picks up how many hundreds of millions? Not much of a punishment in my humble opinion
BlueSkies_LA
The last owner who was forced to sell was Frank McCourt. He’d bankrupted the Dodgers and when MLB forced the sale of the team he became a billionaire for his trouble. Likewise with Crane it isn’t about punishment, it’s about getting him out of the game.
fox471 Dave
Beaning?
realsox
Did anyone else notice how nervous the Commissioner was? He literally had trouble speaking a complete sentence without interrupting himself with “um” several times, over and over and over. That kind of a vocal tic suggests he was struggling to say what he needed or wanted to say. I thought he was more worried that his remarks would be like fueling the fire rather than banking it down.
ABCD
So, how about those Cubs?
Jk. Excellent article, Jeff.
bigdonkey44adam_dunn
fire Manfred!
fox471 Dave
Twice!
Moneyballer
He’s looked horrible throughout this little ordeal. I bet Selig would have handled this differently. Manfred has to go!!!
Twinsfan333
Dug their own hole? The saying is dug their own grave. Is grave now on the forbidden work list in 2020 asking for a friend. Maybe it’s too scary and hurts feelings? A better question than more Astros discussions.
baseballpun
Grave would imply they’re dead and seeing as they weren’t even really punished, they aren’t in any danger of dying.
Halo11Fan
I have a great idea. Have every Astro stand at home plate and have a team representative pull a Jake Marisnick on them like he did to Jonathon Lucroy.
Lucroy missed a month, that should take care of any suspensions.
Anyone still think a team with such class didn’t do that intentionally. I don’t.
DarkSide830
really classy on the part of other players if they did that.
Halo11Fan
Darkside… was that to me?
If so… huh?
DarkSide830
sorry, didnt get the sarcasm at first. your proposal looks realistic compared to many ive seen here though.
Halo11Fan
The first part was sarcastic.
I am rethinking my position that Marisnick intentionally went after Lucroy though.
I supported Marisnick when that happened and part of my rationale was I didn’t think Marisnick was that kind of player.
I’ve adjusted my position.
looiebelongsinthehall
I still say make all players give back their rings live on national TV.
seth3120
Adjusting your position is a never ending part of critical thinking. We all have bias but we should try to keep them out and never dig in too deep on an opinion or feeling. I think people take a strong and bold position refusing to come off of it regardless of the facts presented.
JayFan
Are the rings given out by the league or are they given by the club? If by the league, then yeah the rings should be demanded back; pennants for the 2017 and 2018 years demanded back and their name struck off the records and trophy as WS winners.
SheaGoodbye
“Is grave now on the forbidden work list in 2020 asking for a friend. Maybe it’s too scary and hurts feelings? A better question than more Astros discussions.”
No idea why you felt the need to inject politics into something not even remotely relevant to that arena.
If anyone sounds upset, it’s you.
Michael Chaney
It’s a pretty common expression. Saying you’ve dug yourself a deep hole is pretty normal English.
Jeff Todd
I’m sure it was that.
Well, either that or I was suggesting they had dug a hole from which they might yet emerge, not one that they would die in.
Rallyshirt
Entrenched?
Fire Jon Daniels
I will accept no less than a 5 year ban for all players involved
Strike Four
5 to life is the only result the fans and the game deserves.
Although I do like how universally-unified this has made every single fan and player. It’s a totally unprecedented unity, exactly zero people are defending Manfred, hah
goastros123
And that’s why fans don’t run MLB.
jkurk_22
Bro, I’m amazed by Astro’s fans. If that was my team that just got caught. I’d be absolutely ashamed. I wouldn’t defend them. I’d be hiding under a rock somewhere. I sure as helll wouldn’t be commenting on things like this. Honestly, I find a situation like this to be an acceptable reason to pick a new favorite team.
goastros123
Many Astros actually dislike and disagree with what they did and/or that press conference. You not choosing to comment is what you’d do if you were an Astros fan. That’s you. Obviously we’re not you. Nothing we say, do, etc changes what happened. Picking a new team is a bandwagoner thing to do. True fans support their team come hell or high water.
slowcurve
Agreed!
arc89
Astro fans should be ticked off at all the players involved. They can’t brag about their team winning a world series.. they must face the shame of being a fan of a team that cheated. They can’t say we won a world series because it means nothing now. All the money they spent on world series T-shirts. The ones that are making excuses for the Astros are the bandwagon types.
Halo11Fan
Public Opinion is great. There should be stigmas. It’s why I get so upset that Bonds and Clemens get 60% of the Hall of Fame vote.
If we don’t get upset, if players don’t get upset, then they will have gotten away with it.
I have no venom towards Manfred. I know the players could not have been suspended.
We are the ones who punish them. We didn’t with Bonds and Clemens and ARod. I’m actually glad we are doing it here.
Jbarger
as a Cubs fan……if i found out the Cubs did this in 16……i would be calling for EVERY one that participated to be getting a LIFETIME BAN…..
thickiedon
I was an Astros fan since a lil kid in the ‘80s, I am embarrassed and infuriated over this scandal and the team’s fans.
#00 Reds Fan
Agreed
jkurk_22
I’m just saying you commenting on here in a defensive manner is honestly almost as bad as the cheating. I LOVE my Braves with all my heart and they are almost quite literally half of my life, but if they did this I’d be distraught. I’d shut my mouth and not defend cheating scumbags. And I normally agree on the whole hell or high water approach to sticking to your team. But I would not cheer for a team of cheaters. I’d have to abandon my team until all of those players were gone. And I would want them gone. Good or not. I want a clean team. You should want that too. Any true fan of the game should. There’s a difference between following your team and loving them even if they’re so horrible they lose 162 games a year, and a team being cheaters
jkurk_22
Exactly!
ThePentaverate
What team would you pick?
DarkSide830
well i guess i dont exist then.
looiebelongsinthehall
Anyone mention the five year extension Bregman got prior to last year? He’s a solid player but what would his stats have been like without the cheating? The Astros paid like the Yankees paid years ago with Giambi but even then I think word was Giambi was likely on PEDs.
johnsilver
Funny hing would be if MLBPA and every single member thrown out of the game and so called “scab” players brought in. It happened before, forget the year for ST at least and man.. Were players furious! After that strike the players refused to talk, even allow the scab players that remained, some for YEARS to be photographed in team pictures, share in monetary rewards.. Google Brandon Donnely (Angels) and find the truth.
Just another rip off group (MLBPA) that sees itself as self righteous, but will never, ever police it’s own.. Like in the Astros scheme where they perpetrated the scheme and were the benefactors, yet NONE were penalized.
Jeff Todd
The MLBPA isn’t supposed to police players, exactly. It is supposed to help them bargain as a group with the league to create reasonable rules. Then, it is supposed to represent individual players within those rules.
As I wrote: we have no reason to believe the union would not be willing to collectively bargain reasonable rules in this arena. I’d guess it would be quite willing to do so, in fact.
But that doesn’t mean it can allow individual players to be penalized without a clear rules regime in place.
It’s not a particularly difficult or controversial distinction.
johnsilver
IMO, when an organization and only an organization, along with non MLBPA represented employees of that organization received penalties, yet MLBPA benefit receivers were on the long end of rewards for what occurred in Houston? THAT calls/called for policing. If the MLBPA, or any union for that matter cannot see that? They don’t need to exist.
It’s nothing more than what is right vs what is wrong Jeff.
looiebelongsinthehall
So it’s ok to represent cheating players when non-cheaters they also represent are screaming? Maybe the union needs to hire outside counsels for both groups and step back. That would be representing all members.
Halo11Fan
Looie, I’m thrilled the players are screaming. I think Manfred is glad the players are screaming as well. Without screaming players, does this get fixed?
looiebelongsinthehall
Agree Halo. I’m just sick of unions protecting members on technicalities when they clearly violated the spirit of things. Sports is based on competition. Without it and there are no sports. It’s one thing to use electronic before rules were in place but once the letter was sent in 17, every one was on notice. What the Astros did is beyond belief. Actually reminds me of someone who deep down is begging to be caught. The wall of silence eventually comes down in matters with so many involved parties and with Cloud storage, evidence never disappears.
DarkSide830
well sucks for you
SheaGoodbye
And the award for dumbest comment in this thread goes to…
I’m sure we would all love to see the players involved suspended in some form, but 5 years? You’re living in your own drug-induced reality.
Buzzed Capra
Yeah man, tell me about it. 5 year suspensions are a ridiculous idea. One year would be overkill. The sad thing is that most of the commenters here will agree with him. They’re like a lynch mob, only seeing things in black and white, with no regard for anyone who disagrees with their groupthink.
SheaGoodbye
Sadly, it is one of the defining trait of our species. To attempt to be nuanced, rational and unbiased is to put oneself in the minority group, with politics being a perfect example of this.
When you consider things from that perspective, it’s really not hard to understand why things are the way they are. Not trying to be pessimistic lol but it’s just something that we, unfortunately, have to accept to a certain degree while still attempting to fight that sort of groupthink.
Gager2140
Ok let me break this down for the 5 year minimum suspension or life time ban folks bc were failing to acknowledge something important….first off, using technology to steal signs is cheating so I’m not taking anything away from that fact. However, the Astros could only do this at home games. They could not do this on the road. So, has anyone looked up the 2017 stat splits? Probably not so let me break it down for ya….the Astros won more games, had more hits, doubles, triples, home runs, RBI, higher batting average, OBP, and slugging % on the road compared to at home….cheating clearly gave them an advantage.
This is why the Astros weren’t hit with the death penalty. Just bc they knew what was coming doesnt guarantee they’ll get a hit and the stats reflect that.
Cheating? Of course. Its bush league petty crap that has no place in the game but the numbers dont lie. The Astros thought they were giving themselves the upper hand by stealing signs and hitting a trash can to notify the hitter. In reality all they did was get people fired, ruin all credibility for the team and organization, and gave the sport I’ve loved since I was 5 a black eye.
pinkerton
I hope they all get plunked.
I’m only saying this so Bochy’s Retirement Fund calls me out on it, but honestly – this is one of the blackest eyes ever to baseball, and I’m not sure if we’re going to be able to ever forget it or move on.
It is what it is. A fastball to the fact and one to us – the fans.
It’s going to hurt and be ugly for a long time. As ugly as me. And I ain’t lying, I got a face made for radio.
pinkerton
I hope they all get plunked.
I’m only saying this so Bochy’s Retirement Fund calls me out on it, but honestly – this is one of the blackest eyes ever to baseball, and I’m not sure if we’re going to be able to ever forget it or move on.
It is what it is. A fastball to the back and one more to us – the fans.
It’s going to hurt and be ugly for a long time. As ugly as me. And I ain’t lying, I got a face made for radio.
dynamite drop in monty
You people are violent maniacs who actually put your wish of injuring other humans in writing. Frightening that so many of you mouth frothing brutes exist nowadays.
pinkerton
oh, go have a glass of milk and relax. I didn’t say I want anyone injured.
I just said maybe one fastball to the back might wisen some folk up.
SheaGoodbye
And what happens if someone misses their intended spot…?
MoRivera 1999
What happens if the Astros cheat and careers are affected, as Trout said?
Strike Four
Yeah, I’d much rather see Alex Bregman suspended for somewhere between 5 years-to-life than him injured. Injuries will heal and he’ll still be an arrogant dbag. Same with the racist pos Gurriel.
thickiedon
Gurriel is no racist. Get real
Halo11Fan
You don’t know that. He made a racist gesture, that doesn’t make him a racist. But it doesn’t mean he’s not.
I think the word racist gets thrown around with far too little evidence.
MoRivera 1999
If the Commissioner had adequately punished the players, no one would be calling for retaliation. Not fans. Not players. Just as no one calls for beaning PED users, who are severely punished both in time and dollars (a very expensive fine to lose pay for 80 games). The players should have been suspended 30-80 games and fined roughly the equivalent of their WS winnings. If that had happened, you wouldn’t see people calling for beanings. But here we are. You can’t wish or shame it away.
You should also preface your statements of this kind by saying, “as a fan of the Red Sox, who may also be guilty, I feel that cheaters should be treated with kid gloves, because everyone does it…” I remember when you denounced the Red Sox when it came out they were being investigated. My how times change.
Halo11Fan
How many games did ARod or Ortiz get for testing positive for PEDs. The Answer is NONE. And the reason is the same now as it was then. The players union would not allow it.
How people are missing this is beyond me.
MoRivera 1999
ARod got a year and a half of prime time in his career. Ortiz nothing.
DarkSide830
prime time? he was in his late 30s when he was suspened.
Halo11Fan
ARod and Ortiz tested Positive in 2004. At least I think it was 2004. The MLBPA insisted that no penalties would be given if players agreed to drug testing.
By the way, it took an act of Congress to get the MLBPA to agree to that. That’s the Congress of the United States.
It blows my mind that anyone thinks Manfred could have gotten anywhere without capitulating to the MLBPA. Such a position is based on ignorance.
#00 Reds Fan
IDK I have to say I loved it when A-Rod got plunked when he returned from the Biogenesis Scandal. Where it was proven he was trying to recruit clients for PED use.
guinnesspelican
Wait a minute here…. Dusty Baker comes out with a public statement and says that he doesn’t want to see retaliation in the form of his Astro batters getting hit. Manfred immediately follows it up with the no tolerance policy of any Astro getting hit and even discusses the potential punishment for pitchers who retaliate against the Astro hitters.
Message: Go ahead and dig in Astro hitters, any pitcher coming in high and tight is getting fined. This is almost as bad as a trash can.
rawbar
Sorry about the language.
DarkSide830
here here!
nasrd
Plunking has been in baseball since day 1. Your post makes me sick. Oh my that poor human might get hurt….pppleeeze
SheaGoodbye
Right? I’m all for pushing for more severe punishments and subjecting the team to ridicule and booing, but beaning them would just be stupid, not to mention dangerous.
And where would it end? Does every team bean every Astros player once? How many beanings total? Dumb, dumb, dumb.
The only thing we should be doing is pressuring Manfred to increase the punishments levied, either with our mouths or our wallets. It will work if the pressure gets tight enough.
Buzzed Capra
Will you crazed obsessed people be happy if one of the Astros gets beaned and dies or ends up like Tony Conigliario? I think a lot of you would be delighted, sadly.
thickiedon
Or like Dickie Thon?
Halo11Fan
Mike Torres threw at Dickie Thon. It wasn’t an accident. I don’t think Jack Hamilton threw at Tony C.
mack22 2
Manfred must resign
Buzzed Capra
How original, haven’t read that on here before.
dynamite drop in monty
Wait didn’t you guys just post an opening for a writer where non bias was a requirement? How many of these repetitive hatchet jobs do we need? This horse has been slaughtered twice over.
yogineely
Haha was thinking same thing when reading that trash can comment
Cubguy13
Slaughtered horse?! You are a violent maniac with no compassion for animals you mouth frothing brute
pinkerton
cubguy13, I’d buy you a beer if I could. That was beautiful.
Just what in tarnation is a “dynamite drop in monty” anyway
MoRivera 1999
Each and every one of these articles and videos cover new ground. Hardly repetitive. You are obviously looking ahead to the BoSox news next week and hoping that if they are found guilty you won’t see them raked over the coals as the news trickles in and MLB, the fans, writers, and players respond. Hopefully for you they are exonerated. Otherwise it’s going to be a long year. Funny thing is I remember you denouncing the Red Sox when it was announced that they were being investigated. My how times change.
delete
Actually there was more breaking news in the form of Major League players rebuking the Astros. So it’s not a dead horse. Maybe you missed the news between tears.
Halo11Fan
beisbolista
That’s not breaking news. It’s surprising and welcome news. After their silence with PED users, I’m amazed and happy they are being more vocal. No one who has followed the history of this game could see that coming.
MoRivera 1999
Markakis was announced today. That’s breaking news.
Halo11Fan
It was hours earlier. I saw it five hours ago.
Jeff Todd
What bias? Go find the reason and the evidence to indicate I am biased against the Astros, or whatever nonsense you are suggesting, and get back to me.
And this is a new horse: the ongoing mishandling of the situation by Rob Manfred.
BlueSkies_LA
How about the mishandling of this by the owners of baseball? I’m really surprised you treat the commissioner as if he’s some kind of free agent who does what he pleases when we know he’s little more than a messenger boy for the owners. You are just setting him up to be the sacrificial lamb.
#00 Reds Fan
One Point: If Manfred doesn’t get the truth from the players (via immunity) then we really don’t get the whole story. The report sounds very plausible a few veteran players pushed this through (Cora and Beltran) and, even though not everyone agreed to it or was helped by it, it happened. Cora and Beltran have not denied being the ringleaders. Manfred made that happen and he doesn’t seem to be getting the credit for it. Otherwise its a bunch of inconclusive rumor and everyone gets punished for the misdeeds of a few. I say he made the best of a bad situation.
delete
@#00RedsFan That’s actually not much of a point. In RICO cases only a couple of key people get limited immunity in exchange for the evidence that brings the whole organization down. There is no precedent for giving everybody immunity or everybody in a certain class immunity. If you can’t see that what the commissioner did with regard to immunity is wrong and unnecessary, then you should study how immunity is handled in our legal system.
Halo11Fan
Dynamite. I don’t think they are bias, I think they suffer from group think.
Owners shouldn’t really care about tax penalties, Bonds and Clemens belong in the Hall of Fame. Management is all about the dollar. I bet they all vote for the same political party.
toastyroasty
Everybody is playing everybody else against each other which promotes distrust and anger. The way this is being handled, it could very easily play out to a situation that virtually ensures a strike as the cba becomes a screaming match between all involved. I hope a grown up shows up and avoids that.
bigcheesegrilledontoast
Good article, I hope it is picked up by the mainstream news sites.
yanks48 2
An 85 year old Selig can’t be this bad
Twinsfan333
You’re missing the point. It’s called an idiom. When used for hundreds of years it didn’t imply the individual was near death. What’s happened to our public schools?
rondon
If a team can suspend a player for “conduct detrimental to the team” why couldn’t Manfred suspend players for “conduct detrimental to the league”?
yogineely
Whoa!!!!
Halo11Fan
I have no idea why people keep missing this:
On the MLB site.
“In exchange for the players’ cooperation in the sign-stealing investigation, the MLBPA insisted that the players be given immunity.”
The word is “Insisted”. I like this site, but it’s not a news site. It’s a National Enquirer site. And the way they are reporting this story proves it.
MoRivera 1999
Maybe you should leave if you’re not happy?
Halo11Fan
I like the site, but I also realize it’s an National Enquirer site.
If you don’t realize it’s a National Enquirer site, that’s on you, not me.
MoRivera 1999
There’s a lot of daylight between not getting every single fact straight and the National Enquirer. A LOT. If you don’t realize that, that’s on you, not on me.
Halo11Fan
It’s a site that depends on clicks. Which is fine, I’m a capitalist. But this story is so one sided, it obviously meant to appease it’s readers and get more clicks.
If you don’t report that MLBPA Insisted on Immunity, and you lump in Manfred with the owner of the Astros, then you are not interested in honest reporting. You’re interested in presented a side.
Which is more and more common today than it’s ever been before.
By they way… I LOVE PEOPLE GOING AFTER THE ASTROS. I LOVE PEOPLE GOING AFTER THE CHEATERS. But it’s not 1919, Manfred is not a czar.
MoRivera 1999
Yeah, sorry, there are more interesting topics than your war with MLBTR.
Jeff Todd
I explained the distinction above.
As for the National Enquirer analogy … man, I don’t know how to help you. Honestly I don’t know what that’s even supposed to mean. But … we rarely wade into anything approaching opinion. Mostly we try to cut through things that we see as obvious BS when other outlets don’t. Not sure how that relates to a make-believe/salacious newsgathering/tall-tale-telling rag.
Jeff Todd
I didn’t say Manfred could have punished the individual players!
I am absolutely lumping in Manfred with the owner of the Astros, because they have both bungled this in their own ways and because there’s an awful lot of circumstantial indication that the responses were coordinated (even if not expressly).
The original Manfred report went way out of its way to clear Crane. Then he got to do a somber firing announcement and take the high road.
If I’m presenting a side here, it’s simply the conclusion I have reached based upon my observations. I had no favorites coming into this. Really I’d have preferred the Astros hadn’t cheated at all.
Halo11Fan
Mr Todd. I guess you didn’t read the chat today.
At one point this was written about Manfort being fired.
Based on fan reaction in recent weeks, I think we’d have the first ever unanimous results in an MLBTR poll.
Is that what you think all your readers want? It sure seems that way.
It seems like it’s all about clicks… which is fine, as I said, I’m a capitalist.
You’re obviously a smart, knowledgeable guy, how well did Fay Vincent’s memo go in 1991? It only took 15 years to get testing and it took an act of Congress. Did you watch the Congressional hearings in 2005? To discount the Union’s influence or the reporting of others is exactly what writing about?
If feels like Fox news reporting on Obama or CNN reporting on Trump.
I feel a lot closer to MLB tonight’s opinion about how Manfred handled the situation than this site’s opinion.
I don’t feel like this site’s reporting on this subject can be called full picture reporting. But I agree, it needs to be filled with unvarnished truth, and that includes the impact of the MLBPA.
The MLBPA is as big of a player in this “Hole” that’s been dug as anyone.
Strike Four
Manfred is simply not good at this job, he must resign immediately.
The new Commish should suspend as many Astros as he can for life, or at minimum 5 years.
goastros123
Time to be realistic, Strike Four.
Halo11Fan
It’s hard to be managing anything when the Union fights you every inch of the way.
Why do you think we have such rotten schools?
MWeller77
Because we don’t properly fund our schools, not because teachers have unions and therefore enjoy such radical practices as due process. Stick to baseball, Halo..
rawbar
Hmmm, IIRC we spend twice as much per student today, adjusted for inflation, than we did in 1970. What happened, and why have we fallen further behind?
Halo11Fan
Are schools are funded very well. We throw more and more money at the problem and it doesn’t help.
My wife has a Masters in Education and works for a child advocacy group. Stick to something you know about, it’s not schools.
Halo11Fan
rawbar, MWeller has no clue. He should stick to baseball.
Halo11Fan
Our schools. Man that’s embarrassing
We spend plenty on education. .
bjhaas1977
Impeach the Commissioner!
burtgummer
Contact the Democrats they’ll lie through their teeth in their attempts
Dave3
What happens at the All-Star game? They always show all these guys that act as if they are long lost friends. Are the Astros going to get there one player? Will the fans vote them in? Will we see bean ball in the ASG? I think it will be interesting to see how that plays out.
coachbrad
I wouldn’t mind seeing the pitchers just issue a walk before they even got in the box. Not even let them put the bat on their shoulder.
virginiascopist
Regarding possible punishments for players, isn’t it likely that the immunity given was conditional on them telling the truth? Therefore, if they all said that there was no cheating going on in 2018 or 2019 and it could be proven that there was, wouldn’t that void the immunity?
StPeteStingRays
Boom! My thoughts exactly. My boy Glasnow will be relieved
Halo11Fan
virginiascopist
I think most people would love that.
coldgoldenfalstaff
Hence the mob behavior by fans and the assuming of any alleged cheating as being true and video and photography manipulation to try and prove this point.
Rallyshirt
Or that is why they accepted the immunity, to cover up the bigger crimes by pleading guilt for lesser ones.
30 Parks
The Astros are smug – never a good quality.
coldgoldenfalstaff
They are baseball players, theres a brashness to every player.
Watch those clubhouse interviews, if you do you can’t say they’re smug at all.
30 Parks
I completely disagree with your assessment of baseball players. The Astros, specifically, were smug in their efforts to apologize. They came across as unconcerned – poor choice.
Long Time Royals Fan
There’s a simple solution. Every Houston Astro’s pitcher should be required to tip every pitch to the opposing hitters for the next 3 years. Since the Astro’s claim very little advantage was gained this should be just a minor inconvenience.
fsrasmd
Love it!
Cobby
Best solution yet.
msiegel67
What I don’t understand is why they don’t just put a playoff ban on for the next 2 years? They can absolutely do this, and it don’t affect the players union. But, it will be a great back door way to truly affect the players. With a playoff ban over the next 2 years and the loss of 1st + 2nd round draft picks over the next 2 years, it is in perfect sync.
The Astros could tank their season, but still don’t get the draft picks. They can play as well as they want and still call themselves division champs, but they still can’t make the playoffs, and it would go to the division runner up. This would also affect the players because they would all waste 2 good years (some people in their prime) on a team that can’t complete the ultimate goal of winning the World Series.
Plus free-agents won’t want to sign with them until the ban is lifted, etc..
Perfect punishment.
Dave3
It’s just a piece of metal though right? Lol
coldgoldenfalstaff
Yeah sure. No surprise that the perfect punishment is always one that makes it easier for your team to win.
Halo11Fan
Only an imbecile would compare Manfred to Crane.
Manfred has to be thrilled that players are coming out against cheating. It’s a million times better than how they responded to PEDs.
Manfred must be thrilled the players agree with him that stealing signs is cheating. They certainly didn’t say that openly about PEDs.
If the players against cheating, it makes Manfred’s job much much easier. Since this didn’t happen with PEDs, I find such comments refreshing and surprising.. It would not surprise me if Manfred feels the same way.
jkurk_22
Nice try with the burner account Manfred
Jbarger
great way to try and divide the MLBPA when negotiations are upcoming…..
HalosHeavenJJ
Great piece. The reason the scandal is so bad is it threatens the credibility of the game. And now both Manfred and Crane have gone and done the same.
Jordowith
Nothing if anything will happen at the all star game. They might get their one player in but the rest of the mlb fans will out vote the Astros fans
Jordowith
Nothing if anything will happen at the all star game. They might get their one player in but the rest of the mlb fans will out vote the Astros fans
Ironman_4life
I still feel at the end of the day when the dust settles all these commentors including myself would be ok if Altuve or Bregman was traded to your team. I watched it with Vick. Winning still matters over morality.
ThePeople'sElbow
winning is the only thing that matters in America. we fool ourselves with morality.
Strike Four
Even though pitchers couldn’t use “the system”, is there any way get can get Osuna a lifetime ban this way, instead of via the way with the one he should have already gotten, for severely beating his wife? If we have to sacrifice Verlander so be it, there’s something fishy with that guy anyway….like who suddenly has more velo at 36? Yeah sure, buddy.
StPeteStingRays
Charlie Morton…
bballblk
Great article!
discoguy
In 1921, eight Chicago White Sox players were suspended from baseball for cheating in the 1919 World Series. Six were guilty of it, two players were not. One player who was not guilty of cheating was Buck Weaver. His crime was that he knew teammates were cheating and didn’t do anything about it. Buck Weaver fought until the day he died to clear his name, in that 1919 World Series, in 34 at-bats, he had 11 hits, batting .327 and no errors. His niece passed away a year ago trying to still fight the suspension. Now, if Buck Weaver was suspended for simply knowing cheating was going on, a standard was set, if a player is aware of the cheating, they need to talk or they face a lifetime suspension. That means the Astros players who knew cheating was going on in the World Series, the exact same thing Buck Weaver is guilty of, should all face the same punishment, a lifetime ban. You cannot hold one group of players to one standard and another group to another standard. If MLB allows these Astro players to get away with cheating, then all who have been suspended for such crimes should be unsuspended, everyone from Hal Chase to Pete Rose because you cannot have such a double standard in effect. At the very least, Buck Weaver and Joe Jackson need to be reinstated immediately as neither cheated. I also believe Rob Manfred should resign. He has been commissioner for four years and in that time, we know the Astros players cheated in 2017 and there are questions about the 2018 Red Sox and 2019 Astros, how can we as fans trust Rob Manfred with the integrity of the game when it’s out of control and he refuses to punish cheaters and hold them up to the same standards as past cheaters. The Astros should lose the 2017 title as well, not give it to the Dodgers, had the Yankees played them for it, we don’t know what would have happened, but leave it as no winner that season. Baseball is a mess right now. There needs to be a commissioner that can handle this mess and clean up the game, not one that allows this to happen on his watch. All these players have the right to be upset, the Astros are getting away with a huge scandal.
fsrasmd
Excellent use of precedent. Too bad Manfred apparently doesn’t understand what the word actually means.
baseball365
As someone who in recent years has grown professionally I’ve gotten to know more and more people at the “top of the food chain” and we cannot discount the reasons Manfred is there in the first place. He is immensely qualified for his role. This was not some BS like you see in places like Italy, etc (hire your untalented brother as CEO and have to hire a real CEO to do the job). People are chastising Manfred like he committed the crime and that’s were I personally draw the line with this self righteous crusade. It is his duty to govern over these issues as he did, but it should default back to the team, as it did and Crane acted. I mean all steps were taken – and let’s not forget one of the most critical facts of snitches get stitches and the only way they obtained the info they did was through player immunity. Honestly it’s a bunch of wackos and cry babies making this worse in the media.
Non-Astro players are doing what they should be doing and voicing their dismay. What happens from here defaults back to the players and will say more about their character as time goes on. If I personally were embroiled in a similar charade, I’d be walking into MLB corporate office in the Meatpacking District ring in hand with a letter of guilt and say “here, take this.”
DarkSide830
so 25% of the guys banned didnt actually cheat. are we really fine with a 75% success rate in punishments?
SheaGoodbye
“You cannot hold one group of players to one standard and another group to another standard.”
Morally speaking, you are absolutely correct, but let’s be real. This happens every day in American society in every aspect of life. Even our legal system doesn’t apply justice fairly, so what makes you think Manfred would take such an unprecedented step in the history of sports, and a move which would likely lead to his own ouster? His job is to look out for the health of the league, and right or wrong, such a massive decision would not be good for the league in the macro sense.
Manfred is not going to give the entire Astros team a lifetime ban. Better to accept that now than fight the inevitable. But it goes without saying that he needs to up the punishment on the organization. What he’s done up until now is nothing more than a slap on the wrist.
Halo11Fan
It is not unprecedented. Steinbrenner served two years of a lifetime ban.
I think the people who are saying Manfred should have suspended the owner have a point.
SheaGoodbye
I was referring to the lifetime banning of players, in particular, an entire team worth of players.
I’m certainly game for suspending/banning Craine, Luhnow and Hinch for a much longer period of time.
tigerdoc616
Not even remotely the same thing. Black Sox scandal was about taking money from gamblers to lose the WS. That threatened the integrity of baseball in a way that the current scandal can’t approach. Without the swift action of Landis and subsequent actions against gambling interests, professional baseball might never have become what it is today, might not have even survived.
The Astros cheated to win, by stealing signs, something while still wrong, has a long history in the game. Comparing this to the Black Sox scandal is like comparing petty theft to 1st degree murder.
Buzzed Capra
Yes they’re not even remotely close. Throwing games is way worse. But good luck getting the lynch mob to comprehend the difference.
Rallyshirt
Pretty sure there wasn’t a players union back in 1919.
Aoe3
Any team can cheat and win the world series and dont have to worry about the title being stripped away.. Unbelievable!
I hope players and leading figures keep speaking publicly increasing the pressure on the commissionaires office and to not let it die down as the season goes on.. Its huge what they did, they stole the 2017 world series! and to a lesser degree the 2017 AL MVP as well.
Bill Skiles
Yes and any player can use peds, suffer a short suspension and then sign for millions of bucks. What a game!
.
bobtillman
Any executive worth anything understands something can go terribly wrong; and, sometimes, in fact actually does. You get the big money because you’re supposed to be able to react to it when it does happen.
Manfred botched this from the beginning. He LIKELY didn’t know what was going on, or at best had only a hint. But reacting in this confused, deer-in-the-headlights way is beyond a terminating event.
He should take the Astros title away (I’ve said before, nobody besides the fans really care), and then should immediately resign.
baseball365
A lot of hysteria for sure. As someone in management myself, it is incumbent upon us to be that leader and Manfred and Crane, absolutely acted appropriately. The blame squarely falls on the GM, manager and anyone who acted in the capacity of management that was involved in this whole charade. In fact, as a businessman, the decisiveness and tack of Crane is admirable. And I’m a Yankee fan and po’d myself.
This is not to discount the severity of the issue at hand, but to criticize these guys over their handling of the matter is getting a bit ridiculous.
I’ve become quite familiar with the opaqueness of legal context and this is true, the text book rules were unclear and not handed down in a manor that could in theory hold players accountable should this type of situation happen. That in itself, closed that door. Sure, it’s implied players will respect one another and play the game in good faith, as is done most of the time. This is very much different than the steroid era as those were individuals you could argue, were less of a detriment to the spirt of the game. This cheating scandal is way far worse.
I mean at this point just let people air their thoughts. There are really only two more outcomes that seem plausible at this point. Players from that 2017 team come forth and return their rings to the MLB. Do not donate or anything else. Return directly to the MLB come out as a person and admit guilt and move on. Or option two is not strip the players of their WS title, but as I said early on, just simply put an asterisk next to it. It will forever be entered into the record books as such and future generations can make their own determination if the team is worthy of that pennant. And the same applies to the 2018 Red Sox, the most unholy of classless sports organizations on the planet and they too should have an asterisk.
And for what it matters, Lunlow will never work in professional sports again. I said this early on too, for those that know corporate America and C suite management personal, he’s done. Hinch on the other hand will land somewhere in a couple years.
ThePeople'sElbow
oh so you’re the CEO who throws other people under the bus to save your own skin? defending Crane are you serious? GTFOH!
baseball365
Irrational much? He is the owner and operator of a $1B+ sports organization. He decisively took action within an hour of the news breaking. I mean that decision was obviously made well before that just to be clear. What’s he supposed to do at that point? Intentionally self combust a billion dollar operation (which I imagine you’re implying he should fire all his players too – i.e. hold them to greater accountability) and field a bunch of scabs? Tell me what outcome you think is appropriate at this point? It’s on the players at this point. Not Crane. If a player wants to come forward and apologize and return his ring, that’s the correct outcome and response at this point. You could argue, the only remaining response at this point.
bobtillman
Your response is, well, I’m not sure how to describe it. It certainly isn’t appropriate to the situation. All that matters is that the customer is satisfied (I’m sure you’d agree the first rule of business). The customer wants somebody to bleed for all this (or at least be beaten, per Markakis). For all kinds of reasons, the players can’t be the ones; neither can any owner.
So Manfred falls on the sword. Knowledgeable folks recognize what he did; he actually becomes a hero, and probably gets himself another corporate job somewhere. Meanwhile, the matter dies, and fans can go back to debating if Mookie is better than Mikey.
As for the asterisks, nothing in sports was as ridiculed as the Maris asterisk; let’s keep it that way.
SheaGoodbye
I agree with your general sentiment, as the hysteria has certainly gotten out of control, but do you really believe the punishments levied thus far have been sufficient? Personally, I do not given the severity of the crime.
If Manfred were to up the punishments a bit more, I might be satisfied then. Until then, he’s only hurting himself and the league as a whole.
baseball365
Thanks for the rational response. I do feel the punishment was light overall. But without a firm precedent and without proper legal language (remember we are country and business of laws), then quite frankly, I think Manfred did what was within his power. I mean the punishment is significant and I am sure, that he was in touch with Crane throughout the process thus the final decisions came in tandem. I have to believe had Manfred known that Crane would NOT fire the GM and manager then perhaps he takes a more stern route. People seem to lose sight of this, but the top tier was punished substantially. I mean what do people want for Crane to donate the Astros to the Red Cross or something? I’m not following at this point.
It’s really on the players now. Frankly, I have no issue with Crane or Manfred. I’m a pretty high integrity guy (something lots of young men commenting on here have yet to embrace in their lives using a form of mob punishment). You can’t beat this to a pulp. At this point, the mature and healthy way to look at it is to hold the cloud over the players. Those that participated should feel bad and 10000% should return their WS ring to the MLB and write a formal apology. If they do that, I forgive them. If they don’t do that, they let that trail of deceit follow them in life. That’s way more powerful than giving a bunch of guys who make $5-20M a year a $1,2,5M penalty.
SheaGoodbye
It’s unfortunate that people choose to willingly ignore factors like context and reality. I know how you feel.
Personally, I would have been satisfied with a few additional picks being lost (especially since draft picks are somewhat of a crapshoot in baseball), loss of international pool money (don’t know whether Manfred has this type of power) and/or longer suspensions for Luhnow and Hinch (granted, they could already be effectively blacklisted from the game, especially in the former’s case). Aside from those possibilities, I think those clamoring for much harsher punishments and/or violence are crazy, especially since some of the players were merely guilty of keeping their mouths closed which, while morally reprehensible, isn’t overly damning.
You make a good point regarding the player angle of things. If we continue to do our jobs as fans, this cloud will follow these players forever, especially those who have yet to show any true contrition, and I think that’s a pretty significant punishment in and of itself. Speaking of the players, Corea coming out and owning what happened even while his teammates were faux apologizing gained him some respect from me.
With that being said, I look at Donald Trump and realize sometimes we do need significant punishments to curb bad behavior as merely relying on sentiments that may affect you or I wouldn’t be sufficient for some folks. After all, we control our own realities to a large extent. If an Astros player wants to convince himself he’s a victim in all of this, he can shield himself from such criticism and move on with his life, to a certain extent anyway.
As an aside, one counterpoint I’d like to bring up is that I suspect many of the outraged folks here, if they were placed in the shoes of any given Astros player, would have also kept silent during this scandal. Not all, but some. People like to romanticize what they would or wouldn’t do in situations they would not directly be involved in, but I often find such arguments less than convincing as we tend to underestimate how different we would be growing up as someone entirely different from ourselves. If a room of one thousand folks was asked whether they would have been complicit during Hitler’s reign of power, 99% of them would likely say no. But in reality, we could likely assume that many of them would have been.
Rallyshirt
There’s not a fine line between leading the your way out of a crisis and negotiating a deal to try and make it go away.
On the negotiating part, it’s met with severe criticism because justice is not met in the eyes of organizational members and more importantly the fans. Without fans there is no organization.
To lead the way out of a crisis, sometimes harsh decisions have to be made. There is nothing harsh about complying with MLBPA to grant immunity for accurate testimony. This is incompetent nonsense. If the players deny involvement because a true commissioner declines the immunity, then the evidence is placed on ACTUAL INTELLIGENTLY WITNESSED MATERIAL (of which there is plenty) and not on personal testimony and admissions of guilt.
Manfred saying there’s no way the Astros would’ve admitted to anything if we didn’t grant immunity. A child knows better. You take the most evidenced guilty member first and ask him. If he denies it he’s banned. Then say “Next”. Pretty soon they’ll tell you everything to save their own skins.
Lawsuits? Who cares. You fixed the problem. That’s what leaders do.
stratcrowder
GREAT ARTICLE JEFF! I think a boycott of Astros games and merchandise is something we can all take part in. This isn’t ever going to go away. I think the league should suspend all involved for at least one full season and prohibit the signing of any free agents for three years.
MoRivera 1999
One fly in the ointment on the boycott plan is that some people will want to go to those games to boo the Astros. Also, a boycott will punish the home team.
bravesfan
The thing that’s driving me crazy, and I’m sure most people, is that NO ONE is handling the situation appropriate. Like from every possible way, this isn’t being handled correctly. The players cheated (strike one), teams complained to mlb about the cheating… mlb did nothing (strike 2), the punishment placed netted like $0 overall and no players were punished (strike 3). But wait… there’s more: Mgmt comes out gives a horrible PR “apology” claiming the chesting didn’t effect the game… strike 4…. players gave weak apologies (strike 5), commish defends all their stupid stuff strike 6… I mean, it’s not being handled well at all.
Jordowith
For future reference they need to revisit that 5 million max fine, even the A’s could consider that pocket change
UhOh!
I guess according to Manfred that baseball is the stupidest business in the World, spending Billions and Billions just to win a piece of metal.
fsrasmd
Worst. Commissioner. Ever.
gtoaster6
Great article Jeff. You did a good job of breaking down how we arrived at our current situation. I agree that it’s odd to see the union dragged into the arena of responsibility. It’s laughable to see the claim that they should have done more to come up with rules for MLB to prevent this.
Eatdust666
To hell with Manfred and the Astros! Oh, I didn’t forget about the Red Sox, of course.
honey nut ichiros
The state that baseball is currently in is on Manfred. The weak punishments he handed out have led to this situation.
prov356
MLBTR advertisers are loving you guys. The writers keep writing the same article over and over again with a different title to get the same people riled up to comment the same stuff over and over again all for ad exposure.
It’s done. Focus on the coming season, or on anything else.
MoRivera 1999
Every article provides new info and insight. Your comment is unexamined.
prov356
Mo – please. All anyone needs to know is it’s been proven the Astros cheated. Any more minutia is just white noise and irrelevant. At some point it doesn’t change the situation. That point was about a week ago.
fsrasmd
How about a compromise? Every single Astros player comes out and apologizes for cheating and then donates their World Series share to charity. When that happens, I’ll stop complaining about the cheaters.
impapad17
I agree with this.
Halo11Fan
Right… Sell their World Series rings and give the money to charity. Don’t display the World Series flag.
There are plenty of ways of showing you are remorseful. They clearly are not.
prov356
Halo11 – forced remorse is not remorse. Their sincerity shows their character. Their character, good or bad, doesn’t change anyones life on here. This has gotten out of hand. Stop whining and enjoy the upcoming season. Success if the best revenge. The Angels need to beat the pants off the Astros and win the division. That’s the best payback for their cheating. Everything else is nonsense.
MoRivera 1999
Add a self-imposed 25 game suspension and I’m with you.
prov356
fsr – sure, a forced apology is always sincere, along with forced charitable donations, right.
charles stevens
I’m pissed off that any pitcher that treats Houston to a little chin music will face more punishment than the cheaters did. Screw you Manfred.
Jordowith
On the bright side (if there is a bright side) at least major league baseball is in the mainstream sports media for all the wrong reasons of course but at least it’s there lol
Whiskey and leather balls
Hypocrites ruining baseball
Rob66
Once the players got immunity for their cooperation, you have to back that up. It’s why small time crooks get deals–so that officials can get the bigger fish.
Steve Adams
The biggest fish in the organization — Jim Crane — is sitting there virtually unpunished, with no protest from the commissioner that he doesn’t feel he should be held accountable in the slightest.
Cave
That’s true, but Crane had (or said he had) no part in it.
IMO they should ban Luhnow for life
Ry.the.Stunner
Everyone involved have “said” they had no part of it, including Hinch and Luhnow. That didn’t stop Manfred from taking action against them.
Halo11Fan
Just for accuracy Carlos Correa said he was part of it.
DarkSide830
you mean the guy who is invested in the team which is now greatly devalued? he may have lost hundreds of millions already, and he has the prodigious task of cleaning this mess up. but yeah, lets whine that there were no official punishments.
Halo11Fan
Steinbrenner was suspended for a year. Maybe he could have gone there.
You can’t do anything to the players. I get that, I seem to be one of the few that does, but maybe the owner could have been suspended as well.
MoRivera 1999
The Steinbrenner solution is a good idea.
Halo11Fan
Mo4, I love common ground.
Iknowmorebaseball
The MLB world champion Houston Trash Can Bangers of 2017
shortytallz
Fire Manfred. Vacate the title. Contract the Cheatstros.
agentx
Manfred’s many miscues on this matter date at least as far back as the 2017 Commissioner’s Office memo, which Manfred said he had sent to each team’s front office but not to the players.
Was Manfred afraid that Tony Clark and the players might weaponize such a memo had he sent it to the MLBPA?
Whatever his reason, Manfred’s decision to send that memo to just the owners and not the MLBPA afforded legal grounds to suggest the players were not sufficiently notified that the sign stealing described in the 2017 memo would be prosecuted so much more severely than any other sign-stealing activity.
impapad17
Excellent article, Jeff!
impapad17
…and they said Bowie Kuhn was an awful commissioner.
Buzzed Capra
He was.
leprechaun
Manfred needs to be fired ASAP. A new Commissioner needs to start this whole process over and all people including players that participated need to be dealt with harshly.
BlueSkies_LA
Who gives Manfred his marching orders? If he was fired, then who’d give the new commissioner his marching orders?
Detecting a pattern yet?
clubber_lang84
Man this was a great site that used to focus on baseball. Why keep this going? Because of the clicks MLBTR is getting? Nothing else is going to happen. It’s over until the RedSox getting punished.
DarkSide830
to anyone that wants the commissioner out, remember, wishing to be abducted by aliens would be a better use of your time. the other 29 owners are fine with these punishments and wouldn’t want an extremely harsh precedent set for these sort of things, known or unknown to them, and they’re the ones keeping Manfred employed. good luck lobbying them all.
BlueSkies_LA
Precisely. While I appreciate MLBTR writing about this extensively I am starting to become annoyed with them constantly allowing ownership to skate. Pretending like ownership isn’t the source of the problem and doesn’t give this and any other commissioner his marching orders is just massive self-deception. “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!”
coldgoldenfalstaff
Not to mention the scapegoating of the Astros and sweeping all the allegations of other teams doing this under the rug.
Buzzed Capra
Yeah that’s exactly what is happening, scapegoating so as to cover up the widespread sign stealing. Beltran said that when he arrived there, the Astros were behind the times with their sign stealing program. That should tell everyone that it was going on with other teams.
goastros123
And that’s why other owners are most likely satisfied with the punishment. They don’t want to be investigated on the off-chance Manfred actually finds something.
BuckarooBanzai
Gonna call BS on the “can’t punish the players because it wasn’t a rule when they did it”
It is not rocket surgery to argue that they violated the intent of the existing (read: not up to date technologically) rules.
DiegoDuder
It’s felt like the Red Sox investigation “will wrap up sometime next week” for about five weeks now.
mike156
I’m amazed that MLB and the Astros haven’t gotten better advice on crisis management. Identify the problem, take responsibility, fix it, That’s what leadership is about in bad times.
rawbar
Well, Manfred, as detailed in the article, tried to bury this as quickly as he could, because it affects the integrity of the games. What he didn’t anticipate (stupidly), was the player and fan reaction.
The Astros players are really, really stupid. How could they possibly think that this doesn’t tarnish their legacy and them personally? Did they really think that they wouldn’t face a backlash from other players and fans?
It seems no one – not Manfred or the owners not named Crane, not the Astros players or management – even remotely thought this through.
SheaGoodbye
Ironically, though unethical, the Astros cheating made sense.
What hasn’t made sense is the handling of this situation by any of the involved parties: Mandred, Crane, the Astros players, etc. And it wasn’t hard to see this firestorm coming.
Their greatest crimes may be stupidity and ignorance.
The Human Rain Delay
That press conference is almost going to be as damning as the actual act-
Americans forgive, if they would have been more forthcoming and offered to vacate the title themselves they would still have a shot at reclaiming their reputation in the end
As is, they are toast forever in most minds and the fallout will probably set the org back 10-20 years-
Although we didnt get our justice from Manfred, the Astros are truly going to pay enormously when all is said and done from top to bottom.
In that we can take comfort, along with some good ole fashion vigilante justice 2020 as a desert
coldgoldenfalstaff
You obviously didn’t watch the Astros players interviews that day. To busy getting your torch and pitchfork, obviously.
Redwolves3
A lot has been said about stripping the Houston Astros of the 2017 World Series Title & Trophy (as Commissioner Manfred described as just a piece of metal). Players were given immunity and faced no discipline. Astros players refuse to show true remorse for cheating. And now Dusty Baker is begging MLB to penalize players harshly if Astros players are intentionally thrown at; taken out by hard, aggressive slides.
Commissioner Manfred said he was limited in the dollar amount he could impose on the Astros; maximum of $5 million. An option (penalty) that hasn’t been mentioned is to ban the Houston Astros from the 2020 post season.
Banning the Astros from the post season seems like an effective penalty Commissioner Manfred could still impose; thus taking away any additional money the players and team could receive.
rawbar
Wow, the Red Sox investigation is set to wrap up in a week and they have yet to interview Sox owner John Henry and CEO Sam Kennedy?
Seriously? Is this a serious investigation, or is Manfred trying to bury the potential wrongdoing for fear that it might be a league-wide, or at least multiple team, scandal?
Sounds to me like Manfred may be hoping to bury this as quickly as possible so not as to further tarnish the game and his own legacy, and certainly doesn’t sound like he wants to take on powerful owners or the MLBPA on this issue.
I’m not sure at this point whether he’s incompetent or merely feckless.
martevious
Forfeiture of the Astros World Series Championship is idiotic, just like college football teams forfeiting all their wins for a season because they had an ineligible player. The past is the past….deal with the present…give a tougher penalty….may the Astros lose early and often….
MoRivera 1999
Vacating the title and all claims and accoutrements as well as Altuve’s MVP would be the greatest penalty everyone in the organization could pay. It would absolutely kill sign stealing by contenders and isn’t that what we’re after? Obviously you still need the organizational fine and the loss of draft picks and in the future player fines and suspensions, particularly to have penalties to prevent non-contenders from stealing signs.
Buzzed Capra
Yes it is idiotic to even consider vacating titles. It happened. We can’t get in a time machine and go back to replay it. It’s over, move along to 2020 Mo4ever.
#00 Reds Fan
JEFF TODD!! You need to let it go. what is all this stupid article doing for the game of baseball?? It gives you some cheap news garbage to write about congrats. Everyone has had their say and that should be the end of it. but guys like you want to make a name for yourself by trying to get your pound of flesh. if you love baseball quit writing about it!
MoRivera 1999
You don’t have to read it! Seriously, just scroll on by! Many of us find it informative!
66TheNumberOfTheBest
“Everyone has had their say and that should be the end of it.”
A) Why?
B) Says who?
Vizionaire
reds cheated, too?
rawbar
Gosh, from your rant it sounds like your an Astros fan, not a Reds fan.
#00 Reds Fan
Im a baseball guy rawbar. I don’t necessarily like the Astros I just hate to see the Game drug through the mud.
fox471 Dave
Look away, moron.
bobtillman
I wouldn’t ignore that certainly one of the architects of MLB’s recent Golden Age was John Henry….his aggressive style of ownership and treating a franchise as a profit center rather than just a tax haven changed the landscape quite a bit. He wasn’t the only one, of course; but he was (is) one of the biggies.
jamesmcdoodle
My issue with the MLBPA is that they protected the players that cheated, but gave no consideration to the 725 other players that they represent. I get that their mandate is to protect players in situations like the Astros found themselves, but to complete disregard/not comment on the concerns of the rest is irresponsible as a union!
Halo11Fan
When it comes to protecting non-cheaters, I have huge issues with the MLBPA.
rawbar
mcdoodle, the only way that changes is if the players vote to change the union’s leadership.
joeyestimates22
Regardless of the MLBPA, Manfred is the man on top and responsible for maintaining integrity in the league. He needs to make the right choices the uphold that integrity, which he has not. He cares more about changing the game in ways most true baseball fans despise.
Chief Two Hands
Astros apologists are pathetic. They simply embarrass themselves.
Vizionaire
why dump it on the union? it was manfred that ignored the warning and then chickened out. fire manfred!
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Bad enough that MLB has become TTO. Becoming TTO-WWE is too far gone.
Pretty amazing how badly this has been handled. They can still salvage something…
Make the asterisk official.
Frankie Bani
Houston will not have the same Joy,,,they should sign the clown Yasiel Puig to get so
MoRivera 1999
How can the players legally claim they didn’t know about the rules?. Every informed baseball fan on the planet knew about those memos/rules. Isn’t that easy enough to establish? I refuse to believe for one minute that the players did not know.
outta the pen
There is a “conduct detrimental to baseball“ clause in the collective bargaining agreement. Seems to me the commissioner had the authority to discipline players under this clause should he have chosen to pursue it.
Merkles Boner
Whatever happened to the “Best Interests of Baseball” clause? I get it Comish you think that you didnt have grounds to get these players suspended but sometimes you have to make players lives miserable even if you cannot get the outcome you want. Landis wouldn’t have thought twice about barring anyone of these clowns for life. I DO hope Manfred get fired and Altuvie get thrown at, repeatedly…….
✎ Edit – 3 minutes and 48 seconds
BlueSkies_LA
The best interests of baseball are the best interests of the owners of baseball.That’s what it meant in Landis’ day and that’s what it means now.
Merkles Boner
not true. maybe you should review at the history of the game. Comish was hired and had the ability to do whatever he wanted. Somewhere along the line (70s?), the owners decided that they didnt want the Comish telling them what to do and his power was diminished.
BlueSkies_LA
I don’t need to review the history, I already know it. The commissioner has always served at the pleasure of the owners and many of them over the history of the game have failed to serve out their contracts after having received a vote of no confidence from the owners.
tigerdoc616
The one issue not addressed here is the fact that by giving the players immunity, Manfred got to the heart of the matter much more quickly. Had the league considered punishing the players they would have clammed up and closed ranks. We would not have a fraction of the information we have now.
If you all want to keep beating this dead horse, have at it. But it WILL NOT change anything. Manfred is not going to come out and suddenly strip the Astros of their WS title, suspend players, or even resign. The owners are not going to do anything about him either. He makes them a ton of money.
SheaGoodbye
That’s perfectly fine with me, but he could still
-Strip them of more picks
-Strip them of international pool money
-Give permanent bans to Luhnow and Hinch
-Consider suspending Crane.
My issue is that the punishments levied thus far have been too light. Up them and I would be satisfied.
sfgiantkev1
I don’t know who’s more of a moron. Manfred or Selig. Someone should create a poll. Gotta say this makes Pete Rose look like a Saint. He’s gotta be babbling about this big time. Good time for him to meet with Moronfred.
SheaGoodbye
The game grew under Selig’s watch, and that’s exactly the kind of “moron” the owners wanted.
Jason29
I’m an Astros fan. Each story I read makes me sicker. Crane should sell the team. The players should be traded. I true investigation should be conducted regarding the rumors that this is far wider than the Astros. The Pirates pitcher alluded to such a couple of days ago. All Astros fans should feel cheated as I do.
Bill Skiles
Well said Jason.
.
sandman12
The simple answer: The 2017 WS championship is revoked, the rings and bonuses are forfeited. Done
Halo11Fan
You think the Players union would allow Manfred to take away bonuses?
rawbar
For sure they would fight it, but it might turn into a PR disaster for the union. Double-edged sword.
JJ55
Bingo. Absolutely.
And since the corruption was condoned at every level of the Asstro’s organization, I think Crane should be required to sell the team. Every organization is a shadow and reflection of its owner. And whether Crane knew about it or not, he SHOULD have known about it. And it’s ultimately people he approved, whether directly or through his most senior hires, who allowed the organization to become the amoral cesspool that it became.
And speaking of the cesspool, I believe the organization should be required to clean house — that everyone who could have even possibly known about the behavior up and down the organization should be fired immediately. Every single member of the organization who could even possibly have known about the systemic cheating and condoned it by not reporting it should be fired immediately.
And perhaps most important of all, Manfred, having proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he’s either utterly incapable of preserving the integrity of the game or completely unwilling to do so, should immediately step down or be fired as MLB Commissioner.
JJ55
No way this happened without Crane condoning the actual actions or at least the mindset and values that enabled it.
And Manfred either has to be terminally feckless and/or stupid or, much more likely, trying to cover up the extent and duration of the cheating to somewhat hide the extent of his utter incompetence as Commissioner and the damage he’s allowed to occur to the game under his watch.
Shishka
Fantastic article on what is unfortunately the hottest topic in sports these days.
Truly great work, thanks for writing this.
richard dangler
I hope the Astros win the World Series. Watching all these dumb people explode will be awesome.
Halo11Fan
I’m sure you have been defending them every inch of the way as well.
If you want cheaters to win, there is something wrong with you.
jleve618
What’s wrong if they have a huge chip on their shoulder and win this year trying to prove a point?
coachbrad
I, for one, am curious to see if they can actually win a World Series.
jleve618
The average fan is so stupid, no wonder the sport is dieing out. “Duuhhh cheaters me mad!”
empirejim
So Correa goes to bat for Altuve and rips into Bellinger. Among his statements he said that the “2017 Title is 100% legit”. Today we hear from the commish that he has substantial evidence that the Astros continued to use their sign stealing operation in the 20117 playoffs.
When the Asstros held their “apology” press conference Correa was the only one that came off as even a little bit genuine. Todays revelation from the commish proves again that the Asstros continue to cover and lie. What a disgrace.
wordonthestreet
Correa is a fraud and a cheater
dan-9
I heartily approve of the sassier, more outwardly opinionated Jeff Todd articles. For too long MLBTR was the home of writing that could not decide on a tone, that was too afraid to step outside the boundaries of “stick-to-the-facts” objectivity that the writers would only dangle their feet over the edge and provide such wishy-washy “analysis” as “it certainly could be seen by some as an insufficient punishment” or “it stands to reason that MLB will investigate the situation”. (not exact quotes – I’m imitating the style)
No, we are now getting actual, thoughtful analysis that’s not afraid to plant a flag in the ground and stand by it. Well done. I especially love the comparison of Mike Trout to a disappointed grandmother.
for the love of baseball 1959
Us baseball fans need to for my own union because the fans are The driving force for the game not the players not the owners if we create our own union then we can sit on the table and have input on all decisions
madmanTX
But but, the Astros and their fans are telling us its time to move on?
greyishwhitesox
This is a very serious topic, but I was laughing pretty hard at some points. I’ve been reading the site for years and just created an account to give props. The story was incredibly well written and exposes the range of emotions a lot of us are feeling right now.
Bill Skiles
Honestly, I’m at the point where I would put up with a small strike of the union to see these players punished and punished well.
.
Dd LV
Probably in the extreme minority but here it goes. What the big market teams get away with season after season, decade after decade, is a far worse case of cheating than banging on trash cans. Not to say what the Astros did wasn’t horrible. Point is, baseball does not care about fairness or legitimate competition. If it did, MLB would have 30 teams with identical operating budgets. I
coachbrad
A) that’s not cheating
B) most years every team finishes within 10% of the mean. That’s competitive balance.
Moneyballer
The punishments issued to the Astros made this scandal much much worse in my opinion. They basically gave them the rubber stamp of approval by not removing their tainted championship. Any other club can look at this and think, ok they cheated but still kept the title….? A worthwhile undertaking. We will cheat too but be better at it and if we get caught? Who cares we’ll still keep our title and the millions and millions we got from winning it all. Anything short of vacating the 2017 championship, taking down the banners and getting the rings back is an endorsement to further cheating.
Sum Guy
Manfred should resign and I’ll tell you why. He set the precedent when the Boston Red Sox got caught using Apple watches to steal signs. He did almost nothing to them for this incident.
Sid Bream
Get rid of all the technology out of the dugout. If you want to challenge you shouldn’t be ringing someone up to ask is that worth challenging, it should be on the player to tell his Manager or the Manager decides himself. Furthermore, players shouldn’t be watching replays in the dugout about what they’re doing wrong in their swing or looking for pitcher’s tipping their pitches by some kink or motion in their action that’s being tipped off by watching their action/delivery on an ipad. Technology is good, but it’s not being used in the correct way and it needs to be addressed forthwith.
Scrap1ron
Despite the hope by MLB, the Commissioner, Player’s Union, and anyone else y’all care to blame about “the punishment” or lack thereof, the punishment is coming anyway and it will start this Saturday. Fans are disgusted and angry, the revenue generating machine is going to take a hit.
richt
I can tell by reading this that Jeff Todd is the type of person who loves to listen to himself talk. And talks a lot.
JayFan
I’m waiting to see how the Astro players perform this year. Any fall off from 2017 – 2019 stats in any material way will have fans deciding their previous results were tainted by trash can thumping and buzzers
Redwolves3
It’s still not too late for Commissioner Manfred to ban the Houston Astros from 2020 post season play.