Strong words from Mike Trout and Justin Turner on the Astros scandal, the Brewers add yet another versatile player, and the Braves extend their GM and manager. MLBTR’s Jeff Todd has it all in our latest video:
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Before people jump on Manfred again, the players association insisted that players get immunity prior to talking to MLB.
Blame the players Union.
I agree, I still think manfred should have done things and dealt with the retaliation from the pa, but I do agree on him slightly having his hands tied
I don’t know how the players union was able to stop Manfred from stripping the Astros of the WS trophy.
They didn’t strip Bonds of his HR title. They didn’t strip the Yankees when ARod cheated. They didn’t strip the Red Sox when Manny Ramirez was caught cheating.
When does it stop. Everyone knows the Astros accomplishments are tainted. This is not going to be forgotten.
Right, but PED users are suspended now. It was a rocky road, but there’s precedent to discourage it now. There’s absolutely nothing in place to stop more sign-stealing technology. 30-game suspensions should have been handed out.
I’ll start being on the “Kill Manfred” bandwagon when this is not negotiated in the next CBA. I think the players want it as well.
I would have loved to get suspensions. But he had no power to do it. That’s why he went after the Manager and GM.
He’s not a Czar.
Yea. This is certainly fair. I just think granting players full immunity was a mistake, but we probably wouldn’t have 90% of the information we have if the players weren’t granted that immunity. It’s a brutal situation.
The solution was to grant immunity to those who offered information, not to those who clammed up. Once you have a few informants you stop the interviews, hand down a ruling, impose punishments. That’s the way to do it. The way they did it made no sense and created this situation where neither fans nor non-Astros players are satisfied, because justice is incomplete.
Roids don’t tell you what pitch is coming. Decieving batters to what pitch is coming is the single best weapon a pitcher has to get a batter out, wheter it’s a K, a pop up, or a wekly hit grounder. Roids doesn’t do that, The Astros cheating did exactly that. Worst thing to happen to the sport in 100 years.
Either way increases production and helps the team win games. If a 36 year old vet can have that level of wisdom but still have the same swing that he did when he was 26, that is a huge advantage in his favor. And it’s going to rub off on their team’s record when they start mashing.
No one would have talked. People wouldn’t “rat” out teammates.
and that’s the way the DOJ does it for criminal investigations…
Matt Kimball
Bonds hits 46 HRs at 28 but 73 at 36. I think it’s a pretty bad argument. Cheating give teams unfair advantages. Organized cheating is morally more outrageous, But individual PED cheating affected outcomes just as much.
Player using PEDs is wrong but is certainly not the same as an entire organization cheating. Very different implications and results. All involved should be suspended and those directly involved, ie, Hinch, Beltran, Altuve, etc., should be banned for life.
Except they showed Altuve hardly used it, and if the team is to be believed (big if, obviously) he was opposed to it. You are targeting him because he won an MVP on that team. Little disingenuous.
No I am not targeting him because of that – but did you really defend it by saying “he hardly used it”? He used it when he hit the walk off homer. Targeting him would be saying only he should be suspended. I didn’t say that. I said anyone who used it, for example, Altuve, etc… should be banned. Having a disclaimer of “he only used it in big games” is disingenuous. I did not write an all-inclusive list, but that doesn’t make it any less true. But Doesn’t the fact that he won MVP make him the best example to use anyway?
Ohhhh you’re a buzzergate guy. Lol why didn’t you just say? Now I can discard all this.
It was perfectly reasonable for him to think a slider was coming in that count and in that particular situation with Chapman. There were rules on live feeds in 2019 that would make sign stealing impossible (going by the 2017 formula), and the league had already cleared them of whistling, which by extension would mean they weren’t stealing signs. And if they weren’t stealing signs, then the buzzer story collapses, unless you just like… buzzing.
Mick, as far as cheating the outcomes of games, no different.
Your outrage is fine, But games were won dishonestly, clean players were affected, and championships were tainted.
I’m not surprised there is outrage against the Astros, what surprises me is there was not more outrage during the PED era. Careers of clean players were ruined. If you were the 26th to 30th man on a roster, you could cheat and make the team, or sit back and play in AAA.
I think PEDs were just as bad and affected clean players more than this.
Buzzergate is so last week. The rage mob needs a new conspiracy theory since their old one has been thoroughly debunked at this point.
Who can you trust, not the owners, players, union, or Manfred. It sucks for the honest player’s.
tkw. Very succinct and accurate post. It’s been that way for awhile.
You can also add the fans to that list.
I trust Trout and I trust Altuve. Both are stand up guys.
One is accused of PEDs which is completely ridiculous and everyone knows isn’t true because of his character and integrity over the years. The other one didn’t stand up to his teammates in 2017, but despite the overwhelming evidence mounting that he never cheated, he insists that he was still part of the team and therefore should face the consequences of what the rest of his team did even at great cost to how fans perceive him.
I find both men extremely admirable in today’s league and in today’s culture.
Halo11 — I haven’t seen any legitimate reporting that the players’ union insisted on player immunity.
The league handled this situation very poorly and I think manfred should be replaced shortly. This will be known as the rob manfred era where he chooses to protect players who cheated because he did not want to set a precedent for cheaters…. what a joke. Baseball has taken a big hit and I don’t think it will full recover for at least 5
I dont think he’ll make past this seson.
Agree with you. I get it, the Astros cheating scandal has been the dominant news this off season. But MLBTRADERUMORS has been pushing this button too frequently in order to generate clicks.
Because it’s a big deal and cheaters should never get off.
Last I checked they didn’t get off and will listen to it all year… let’s just move on people!
badco44,
They did get off. They kept their rings, they kept their bonuses, they kept their negotiated salaries. They didn’t get suspended.
You want to move on? Public opinion is the only thing holding them accountable. As soon as that dries up, they will have gotten off.
Haven’t even checked the traffic. Yes – if there’s a huge story, we are going to fully cover it, have opinions on it, etc.
Meh… it’s a rumors site and probably a good outlet for a lot of us on both sides of the story while we wait for the season to start.
Um, whats the other side of CHEATING?
Um… not cheating? Whose your favorite team Col? I bet you a dollar it isn’t the Astros.
MLBTR has “pushed the button” when developments occur. It was perfectly appropriate for them to have both a news article and a video conversation on the occasion of the Trout and Turner interviews.
Not really. It is actually that bad. It is the worst thing to happen to the sport in 100 years.
No! It’s the worst thing that has ever happened ever in the history of everything.
Good signing by the Brewers on Brock Holt. I wanted the Reds to sign him.
People can complain all they want about how Manfred has handled this,, but we wouldn’t know a fraction of what we know about this had he not granted the players immunity. Everyone involved would have closed ranks and clammed up.
We can thank Friers for that, not the cheaters
Yeah he sure is a model of integrity
Fiers who accepted the ring, nearly fought Hinch in 2016 (ironically Carlos Gomez was the one who played the peacekeeper and held him back), and was trying to break this story to anyone who would listen after he got cut? Swell guy, lol, he could at least name all the teams that were doing it instead of conveniently targeting a division rival. He seemed to be fine with receiving his championship too.
Fiers had the guts to tell the truth unlike Altuve, Bergman, Verlander, Reddick who made weak excuses and lied to everyone. Please don’t use the everyone did it excuse. He didn’t try to break the story to anyone who would listen. he was asked about it from a investigated reporter. Over a dozen teams were upset about it. MLB said they investigated but did nothing for years. Get your facts correct not opinions.
People close to the situation like Collin McHugh’s wife said so. It makes even more sense that he went to Drellich, who got dropped from the Astros essentially for tabloid reporting. So yeah Fiers told the truth but his motives were not genuine, and because of that conflict of interest we need to take it with a grain of salt and not just condemn the Astros as the only team who did it.
Also, he didn’t say anything about buzzers so if you want to lean heavily on him… you know.
Well Buzzers may have not been used until after fiers was off the team. Buzzers only came to light on Altuve’s home run shot. before that no mention of buzzers. like all thing astros probably evolved into using buzzers since this has been going on for 3 years.
Ok so why would a buzzer matter if they couldn’t steal signs in 19? They already retired “Dark Arts” and the league had cleared them of whistling, which means they wouldn’t have a way to get signs. Combine that with rules about live feeds, too.
And if the A’s knew about cheating in 17 without any players coming from the Astros, then it follows that you don’t have to be on the team to see something wrong. See Joe Musgrove, Tim Flannery, John Smoltz, LoMo, even Chris Sale vs the Tigers.
probably, huh………
you are in denial about the whole thing. A’s were only 5 games out of first and went into Houston and was swept. i remember the a’s announcers saying it was like the Astros hitters knew the pitches were coming. A’s management went to MLB and filed a complaint. MLB said they looked into it but i doubt they did and said they found nothing. This goes back to 2017.
just like thieves they get more brave when getting away with things. so yes it probably evolved and players saying among themselves hey i know a better way to send the message. All the blame should n’t go on Astros because manfred was a enabler by not doing anything in 2017.
dozens of teams were complaining about it. manfred did nothing about it until the article came out shows he was sweeping it under the rug.
Ok so you’re proving my point that we should act on these players speaking up. Logically, this means we need to investigate other teams quite extensively.
Also getting swept late in the season is not out of the realm of possibility. Neither is having your pitch scheme deciphered over the course of several months. This is part of analytics. But yeah if they stole signs then that’s not good. But again, this proves my point that these other guys speaking up shouldn’t be swept under the rug when they said, hey these other teams are doing it.
Mr. Intimidation.
The Red Sox are going to get punished… it’s coming. We don’t know what others team cheated… so what? Do we not punish criminals because we don’t know everyone who committed crimes?
I find it impossible to believe the Astros only got the information through trash can banging. They had a computer program that broke the signs and they delivered them by banging trashcans?
Regardless, we don’t know when it started, or ended, or the delivery system. We know about 2017. That’s enough.
Yes, we know about 2017. I didn’t say punish, I said good reason to investigate. Which is how MLB reached the initial conclusions about codebreaker and all this other nasty stuff. When Beltran got to Houston and said, “your sign stealing is behind,” what else could it possibly mean other than other teams were cheating even more than Houston was?
https://empiresportsmedia.com/new-york-yankees/how-guilty-are-the-new-york-yankees-of-electronic-sign-stealing/ course ynx will soon frog walk and apologize for ruining players careers rkn…. oh yeah.., theyre ynx.
You really don’t think that the Asterisks couldn’t hide a high res camera somewhere??
I’m trying to understand the double negative?
Hmm… I think the Astros could hide a high res camera somewhere (technically just about anyone can hide a res camera somewhere btw). I think that means I don’t think they couldn’t.
Geez, the English language you know?
I guess it’s okay until someone cheats you or cheat on you. That’s when we look at things differently.
Maybe if things were handle correctly this problem would not be as bad. This reflects bad on MLB. A very bad example has been set, no matter how we look at it.
Kudos to the guy who went to Astros Spring Training and was banging a trash can during their BP.
Yeah, that was funny. It was good practice for what’s coming at them this year.
Manfred had to choose who to punish. He had to pit one side against the other – essentially players vs. the front office/manager. If Manfred attempted to punish all, from the outset, then who was going to provide the crucial, damning details? The Astros, as a collective and absent immunity, would not all turn on each other, they’d close ranks and nobody would be held accountable. The claim that all should be punished is misleading – how was Manfred supposed to accomplish same? Evidence, Manfred needed access to evidence.
problem is Manfred knew about it for years. instead of doing a proper investigation he swept it under the rug until a article came out. He had to do something so he did as little as possible. He did not want fans to know they watched a fake world series win. He did not want people across the country to stop paying for a product that was a fraud. Now he is in spin mode knowing that id he took care of it 3 years ago it would be building a bigger snowball.
Manfred waited too long, agreed. However, the contention the Astros would voluntarily turn-on-each-other, thus implicating the players and front office, is far fetched. It’s divide and conquer, someone had to talk and someone had to fall. Minus a full blown mutiny, I see no path to accomplishing player accountability.
I think the issue many have is normally you only give immunity to the few so you can catch the many. Immunity to all was just asinine. They caught none of the players in a manner that could have led to punishment. The lack of punishment of the players is 80% of what bothers people. (The rest is the title and Awards, etc.) It’s a big reason why we’re still talking about it. There’s unsettled business. Even the non-Astro players are feeling it. They’re saying it. There should have been punishment. It was mismanaged. If the union demanded immunity Manfred should have gone public and said the union was tying his hands so the fans could have brought pressure on the union to change it’s position. There were ways to handle it. They weren’t pursued.
I disagree and contend there was, in fact, no way to accomplish absolute punishment. To gather evidence along such a path, the Astros would have to turn on each other – why would they do such a thing? Morality? No way. The players union would never agree to such circumstances, regardless of outside pressure.
You’re forgetting the fact that there are undoubtedly a large number of fans AND players who wanted (and want) punishment. I believe the union could have been backed down through the court of public opinion if the Commissioner had given it ample voice. Fact is the decision was made behind clo0sed doors, as if there were no other stakeholders involved. That’s just mismanagement. And it backfired tremendously. It’s why, for one thing, there is talk of retaliation among players and fans.
… there is no way to gather appropriate information without player immunity. Again, why would the Astros blow the whistle on themselves? Further, the MLBPA would never allow punishment based on the accusations of rival teams or fans. Note the player reaction to Mike Fiers, most players say he “broke the code.” In other words, most players would have kept their mouth shut. If these players are so outraged, then why don’t they celebrate Fiers as a leader? Why didn’t these guys speak up if they all knew what was happening? The players are sending mixed messages. Grandstanding. Player immunity allowed Manfred to gather credible evidence – divide and conquer.
If the Astros wanted to generate some goodwill in the sea of of badwill that they are currently wading in, they could voluntarily take down the 2017 pennants, give back the WS trophy, and ask the players to give back their rings.
Would that be enough?
I think I have a solution to the Astros sign stealing. First, put an asterisk by their World Series title, including the banners in their home park. Second, require that the Astros let the opposing teams know what pitches are coming for the same length of time the Astros were cheating. That seems equitable to me, even if I know if will never happen. I’m guessing the Astros are going to have a mysterious regression in offensive production this season. If I were a writer, any of the players involved with this would not get my vote for the Hall of Fame either.
What Manfred should have done was not only suspend those ballplayers involved for say 30 games and force Houston to bring up from their minor leagues it will also start the clock on some of their high prospects thus them having them for less years than they anticipated also their attendance will suffer if most of their star players are missing.
You know it’s a big deal when Mike Trout speaks out. He never does or says anything to cause waves.
Trout spoke out because he is protecting all the other players that are upset. If it was some relief pitch MLB might fine him and suspend him. Since its the cover of MLB best athlete MLB can’t do anything to him. Lots of respect for Trout and Fiers.
Mike Trout is a stand up guy.
There are some major contradictions with the general school of thought. A lot of people seem to think: “Everyone is doing it..” in regards to using tech to steal signs, but if that were the case why are so many players vocally outraged by this?
Not punishing the players seems to be a major misstep by Manfred. Players who come back from 30-day PED suspensions have sometimes gone on to have solid careers and gained back some respect from their peers. The Astros players just have question marks looming over everything. Without any meaningful punishment, I don’t see how these players can be redeemed in the eyes of their fellow players and fans. It’s a mess.
I blame Manfred as much as the Astros. Do you think he would want to put a black eye on baseball by saying cheating is rampant in baseball. Of course not like a lawyer he ha sto spin it and pretend nothing happened.
Outrage has never been fabricated before about issues? Where were you before the Mitchell Report came out, even after?
The Dodgers are now buddy-buddy with Mookie Betts while spewing all this about the Astros. That should tell us how much the teams really care about integrity.
It is two-fold nothing has yet to come out or finalized regarding Boston and unless Mookie was involved you can’t really blame the Dodgers for not even bringing this up I mean Tony Kemp of the Astros at the time was said to not want anything to do with what they were implementing so Kudos to him.
You have to wait and see if Boston will have the same infractions imposed but remember a lot of these teams mentioned mostly what Houston was doing and didn’t like their smugness.
I agree Astros PR has been bad. They should have just been silent if this was the route they planned to go, so to speak. The mob is never going to accept anything they say, so why bother, in my opinion.
It seems weird that Betts went from a 120-130 to 185 wRC+ in that one season and then dropped off. Even if the cheating is ruled as lesser, it shouldn’t matter. Allowing a little cheating turns into a lot of cheating. There’s no pause button on how bad it gets.
If the astros want this to go away all they need to do is come clean and admit they cheated. it was wrong and they will never do it again. They want the world series banner taken down and ask for everyone forgiveness. Altuve gives the MVP trophy to AJ. Altuve would be praised as a up standing guy. People would forgive the Astros. America loves to forgive. Do a personal apology to all the teams. Of course team owner would be outraged because it means he knew everything.
They absolutely do not like to forgive and if the Astros started crying at the press conference they would get called crocodile tears. The outrage doesn’t stop when you give in lol that would make it worse. The overwhelming response would be “oh you’re just doing it because you got caught, ban the Astros now,” guarantee it. Anyone who doesn’t think this has to be like 60 years old. It’s not a civil society.
I don’t think silence would have been the answer though the communication should have been controlled better. As for what to say you simply have to know the difference between a non-apology and a genuine apology. That’s all. Some people know it, some people don’t, especially those who aren’t sincere about it.
As for Betts I agree. The jump from 6.4 WAR to 10.9 back to 6.8 is suspicious. If the Dodgers get a 6.8 WAR guy (and not a 9+ WAR guy) I think the trade was still probably worth it based on the pieces and $ swapped. But if that happens it will definitely affect the deal Betts gets next year, because it’ll mean he’s not as close to Trout as some people (and he) like to claim.
“They’re only apologizing because they got caught” is the general sentiment from so many people that like I said they would be better off dropping it.
But yes on Betts. Interesting to see what happens in a contract year. He made his bed on demanding to go to free agency so we shall see what he reaps. I wonder if the blowback from contracts like Harper, Machado, and Hosmer will make teams hesitant (for once) lol
Got it. Agreed.
I would hope the Machado, Harper, Hosmer deals would come to bear on the Betts deal. Personally I think Betts is worth $280-$330MM and not the $400-$420MM, especially if you gauge it by giving the Machado and Harper deals the haircut they deserve. Those two probably deserved $225-$250MM. But no way does Betts deserve more than Trout. Betts is 5’9″ 180 lbs. Trout is 6’2″ 235lbs. Betts averages 7.8 WAR (7.2 if you throw out the suspicious year). Trout averages 9+. One is clearly better and is, IMO, going to age better, particularly in the power area.
Mo, Betts performance was directly related to JD n any injuries he had n not performing
Show me some proof about Mookie. I’ll wait.
We don’t have proof, as in we personally, because we’re dudes. The MLB knows something and they aren’t releasing it. What I meant is that however bad the cheating was in Boston (and we have reason to believe it’s bad with Cora no matter what twitter says) will affect Betts’ situation if he turns in a year that doesn’t come close to 2018 even if it’s good like the rest of his career was. But a 10 WAR, 185 wRC+ year one time, that happens to coincide perfectly with the year the team cheated, is not good optics, objectively. Obviously he’s a talented player.
I really don’t see the steroid era as a fair comparison here. We’re talking individual cheating versus institutionalized cheating.
And we have no idea what Mookie Betts did.
Cheating was absolutely institutional according to the Mitchell Report (balco, biogenesis, etc) unless you want to insist that guys all discovered and got with these juice dealers and sipped on the capri sun with no prior stimulus. Players talk.
Then I guess the Astros player who got caught yesterday was part of a team of PED users because no player goes out procures and consumes PEDs on their own. Huh. Not intuitive to me but if you say so. I’m not saying one player can’t influence another (Clemens on Pettite in Houston), but thyat’s different from suggesting there was a marketing program and dispensary in the clubhouse… That I don’t buy for a minute. It’s like any drugs. It spreads secretly in the shadows.
With regards to the Mitchell Report, there’s this implied suggestion by those who are referring to it in these Astros debates that 1) anyone named by one guy is automatically guilty, 2) anyone named must have been doing PEDs there whole career up to the point they were named, 3) every Yankee who was named was playing on the Yankees every year and doing PEDs every year from 1996-2007. None of that is true. As with all drugs I’ll bet there were players who tried it once or twice or for one season. Most of them. A few did it multiple seasons. If you take what’s being suggested then about ten Yankees were on every team 1996-2007 and doing PEDs every year. That’s both disingenuous and untrue. A fraction of those players who on those teams during any given year and a fraction of them were doing PEDs in any given year. My own guesstimate is that 0-4 players were doing PEDs during any given year in that time range, with the numbers declining as the years went on, as they did for PED use in the general baseball population. Again, that’s accounting for the fact that only a fraction of the total were on the team any given year and only a percentage of them was doing PEDs in a given year. That, I believe, is an intellectually honest appraisal. Not the suggestion that NYY had a team of PED users every year. That’s preposteroujs and dishonest.
What I mean by that is, I don’t think there was any proof of a team-wide steroid scandal as opposed to this team-wide sign stealing scandal.
But it’s a moot point because baseball punishes PED users now. They need to implement a system punishing sign-stealing tech.
Those who are punished are the ones who get caught. We can’t assume testing is nabbing every player. I’m sure many are beating the system ie. cheating.
Of course, but there is a genuine reason for PED use to be discouraged. As of now, there’s absolutely no reason not to use tech to steal signs.
It is similar to when Palmeiro emphatically stated that he had never used PEDs. Well guess what, he was lying, and trying to disassociate himself from the users. He didn’t think he’d get caught. When Beltran came to Houston he told them they were behind the times with their sign stealing. That should tell you that other teams were doing this beside the 2 accused.
Where’s the evidence that “Beltran came to Houston he told them they were behind the times with their sign stealing.” I hear Astro defenders say it but I’ve seen no evidence. Sounds like just more fabricated deflection.
Athletic article by Drellich from the 11th of this month. Also spread to NY Post if you aren’t subscribed. It is definitely there.
Just because Beltran said that doesn’t mean it’s true. More importantly, teams and players from throughout the league seem genuinely outraged by this. So I don’t buy that other teams were doing it to the extent that the Astros were.
… what the heck would he mean then? Lol, he said “you’re behind in sign stealing,” no? Do you think that was facetious? They were genuinely outraged about juice back in the day too (ahem, Palmeiro) when baseball looked like a cartel. The product of this outrage is Cole (who supposedly played on the buzzergate team) getting a record deal and Mookie Betts now buddy-buddy with the Dodgers team. I think we need to look past the headlines.
I only believe in facts. You’re assuming a lot here.
I thought Manfred did mention that although he provided the players the immunity that if further down the road more information comes out and those players lied that suspensions will be handed down and thus will create quite a unique situation with the Players Association of whether to bite the bullet and let those players take the hit of a suspension or try and defend them and take a backlash from the fans, owners, ballplayers if they decide to defend.
When you start hearing from Mike Trout whom does not necessarily like to be in the spotlight you know players are not happy with the decision Manfred at the current has taken to be fined $5 million is peanuts compared to the amount of $$$ they made overall for claiming the Title.
Remember this does not bode well for Manfred because many teams have been complaining about the Astros going above and beyond their cheating process. Yes a lot of teams looked for an edge but when you have teams across both leagues stating they were wary of Houston Astros and the commissioner brushed them aside only for it to come to light because of an interview of Mike Fiers this is the single reason why Players are really miffed and as some has stated this was worse than the Steriod ERA because as much as Bud Selig made believe to turn a blind eye every team had roughly 3-5 ball players that were on steriods so it was more of a even playing field.
This is not going to end well period and the fact that still these Houston Astros ballplayers are arrogant enough to say it did not impact the game with the exception of Correa is the very same reason you have Mike Trout livid amongst other ballplayers.
I doubt Manfreds retaliation ban is listened to or followed – pitchers are still going head hunting after the Astros
that is where it is going to get very dicey with brawls, you will have some fans that may go above and beyond and are not right in the mind so something is going to have to be done and fast to put an end to the bitterness.
maybe they can kill some of them, right?
Nobody wants to see that, however, there might be a higher percentage of inside pitches.
Bottom line: Astros players deserve what’s coming to them for cheating several years in a row, denying the initial cheating allegations before the investigation and delivering an insincere apology.
How can the Astros say, “We earned the championship” when they were found guilty of cheating?
I mean, if you demand apologies, you can’t really get that mad when they shuffle out and mumble out some fake apology. If they don’t feel bad, they don’t feel bad. That’s not a defense, that’s just saying you should stop banking on them having an epiphany and just focus on beating them at baseball or petitioning the commissioner himself.
And you can still say they earned it, they were a top-tier team. It was even shown how Darvish’s tipping was done without the need for any codebreaker right after the WS ended. Doubly true if the balls were changed.
I don’t demand an apology but I expect it if the Astros players are sincere, which they’re not.
Second, give me proof of Darvish tipping his pitches? Last time I read anything about this, Rick Honeycutt went over all the video and found that Darvish did not tip any pitches. I’d like to see your proof.
An SI article from December 17 said that he was regripping when he came set in the stretch position, at least for those games. I am not aware of Honeycutt’s assessment of it. Just like with Glasnow, the Astros seem to catch tips well. This goes for Wade Miley unfortunately. He got informed after he left of what he was doing.
I feel bad for Darvish specifically if it’s true the grip on the new balls sucked in that one series. It would be devastating to a guy who likes to play with the seams and throw sliders.
I feel bad for every player and every fan who was negatively affected by the Astros cheating scandal.
Astros players DESERVE everything that’s coming their way.
I just don’t want to see anyone get hit on any team. It’s bad for the sport (see Justin Turner) and I know fans were not happy about Archie Bradley getting aggressive too. The players can come together and solve their problems like men without violence. They can petition, lobby, they could even strike if they so chose. But the Astros weren’t putting guys in real danger and it shouldn’t be part of the conversation, in my opinion.
Mr. Intimidation.
There is head hunting and sticking a hitter in the ribs. I like it when batters get hit in the ribs for “breaking the unwritten rules”. Baseball does a really good job of policing itself.
Head hunting is completely different.
*
How many times do they need to get hit for justice to prevail? Once? 100 times? One for each bang in 2017?
Quit advocating to throw at them. Beat them. That’s the only way you’ll ever truly feel better about it all.
He just needs to regrip or give the same motion regardless of the pitch. Split finger pitchers typically always start with that grip before every pitch because it’s obvious to a hitter when someone is spreading both fingers on the side of the baseball that way. It was corrected I’m sure. Teams go to great lengths to look for pitch tipping in opponents as well as their own pitchers
Throwing at guys is still outright dangerous and isn’t okay. Examples from the Yankees: Stanton (yes that was as a Marlin but still, 90 to the face by Mikey boy), Judge on the arm, Turner on the arm. It’s not a road we should go down in any situation. Especially for the really salty dudes that mean head hunting literally. That could kill someone and is straight up psycho. Pitchers who hurt a guy like that deserve jail.
Now one guy we should look for is Zack Greinke, who hasn’t reported to ST yet or said anything about… anything. He tends to play by his own rules and would be down to throw at some guys, if he’s anything like he’s been in his career.
I don’t think people would be talking about throwing at Astro’s batters if the players had been appropriately punished. A 20-80 game suspension and a fine say in the range of their WS winnings (with no distinction made between complicity and participation, since there is no way to get an honest appraisal of who did/did not participate. Fact is everyone was complicit and benefited). If that had happened we wouldn’t be talking about retaliation.
I also think it’s important to remember that it’s early. This is all fresh in our heads and everyone is reacting to it. By the time the season starts, cooler heads will prevail. That being said, the respect lost will never be gained back unless there’s some kind of penalty for the players.
After 10-12 teams complained to Manfred, he STILL did not do anything until The Athletic broke the story. With how abrasive he sounded at times the other day, I conclude that this commissioner is out of touch with the players and the fans.
The owners should start looking for a new commissioner, although I doubt Crane would vote for this.
I used to wear my Astros gear at Dodgers Stadium and they would throw peanut shells at me. The first time it happened, the face-tatted big dude behind me leaned over and whispered in a heavy accent into my ear, “It’s ok man… we like you.” Ha! Great fans. Don’t think I’ll be wearing Houston gear there anytime soon though.
Good luck this season. Betts is going to make them hard to beat.
Everyone is calling for player suspensions and title stripping but I feel like the title has little value anyway. It will always be viewed as dirty. As far as player suspensions are concerned, there is a school of thought that it is worse to have to play. How do you look other players in the eye or accept an all star bid?
We’re going to find out. Dusty Baker is technically managing the All-Star team right? I’m sure he’ll pick some of his guys.
The taint on the title will wear a bit over time. Vacating the title or marking it with an asterisk would go a long way to preventing it from being forgotten.
Having trouble looking other players in the eye or having trouble accepting an ASG bid depend on having remorse and we have no real evidence of that. Actual suspensions and fines would have been more effective on multiple levels, including the one where dues are paid and everyone gets on with the process of moving on. Without punishments, there’s unsettled business, scores to be settled, grudges, chips on shoulders, etc.
To be clear I’m not asking for head shots. But if the league is gonna step in to protect the Astros with suspensions of opposing pitchers, this is gonna be a wild fire throughout baseball and the fan base! Since the majority feels that the Asterisks got away with this unscathed especially the players, there is obvious anger amongst the players and fan base, for good reason! This will go down in history as one of if not the worst scandal in baseball, it won them a WS title with no suspensions or fines to players involved. Fans and other teams will be outraged once an opposing pitcher hits an Astro and receives more games then any one of them ever will. I’m not asking for it the rain high and inside pitches, but they should be reminded all season long and ridiculed for their actions. First game, first batter, thrown at. Umpire issues the warnings, it’s settled. Game 2, first batter, let go, second batter, thrown at. Issues warnings, it’s settled. Continue this with every game throughout their entire batting order all season long. It’s almost inconceivable that Houston’s unapologetic reactions continue to to make the story worse. They have to be held accountable and reminded that baseball as a whole including its fans are are angry and your the reason why…
Which Astro player do people think is the most despised as a result of this? Either by fans or by current players. And which player do people think will receive the most “justice” from opposing pitchers throughout the course of the season?
Im thinking its one of the ABC boys – Altuve, Bregman or Correa
At this point I give the edge to Correa after his ridiculous interview.
haha – agreed. Coming out on the attack and saying, Fair and Square feels like he went from the bottom of the list to public enemy #1
It will be Correa. He’s become the Astros leader overnight. I know A LOT of Astros fans who had grown tired of Correa always getting hurt and weren’t too sure they wanted to keep him. Now he’s become a hero to the fan base. His OBP is going to skyrocket this year. Pay him whatever he wants.
Remember last year’s “Let the Kids Play” MLB commercial when Correa snarked Judge with that, “How many championships have you won?” line and Judge just kinda smiled?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Retaliation is going to happen. Inside inside pitches on the hands. Slap tags to the face. Astros getting “accidentally” stepped on on those close plays at 2nd. Trash can band during away games. Harassment from angry fans and many of their fellow peers will shun them. This is going to get ugly before it gets better, Commissioner’s warning be damned. The anger is palpable.
I agree with what you’re saying, I think people are tired of watching cheaters getting away with things without any kind of punishment whether it’s work or in politics or baseball, it’s time for people to be accountable for their actions.
I agree with your last statement. However, this is America and accountability is non existent
Acirema !
Players May not face any penalties this year but they sure are tainted in legacy and possibly financially in the future. Not a lot of people are going to want to signed them for as much money knowing that they cheated. Also they lose out and many other different ways as well. Most people are not going to see them as champions but Con Artist and frauds. Their title will always have an asterisk next to it whether it’s in the books are in peoples brains. So who cares if the titles not stripped and they didn’t get in trouble this year! Not to mention you got a remember that lotta players are not gonna want to sign with the Astros and that team is going to be hurt for years to come.
Am I the only one who’s sick of the mob mentality by the players and fans against the Astros. Sure, what they did was wrong and they should be punished (which they were), but players and fans act like this is the first time a team has ever tried to steal signs. I’m willing to bet the Astros weren’t the only team in the last 3 years to engage in sign stealing. They just happened to get caught. I’m also willing to bet at least half the players whining about this would’ve done it in a heartbeat if given the chance (assuming some of them haven’t already tried it).
Should players have been penalized? Sure. Banned from the game? That’s idiotic. To me, sign stealing is no different than corking the bat, or scuffing or greasing the ball. Again, is it wrong? Sure. But give them a 10 game suspension and leave it at that.
The hitter might be tipped into what’s coming, but he still has to hit it. Sure, it’s easier to hit it when you know what’s coming, but you still have to hit it. It’s not easy to hit a 100 mph fastball.
Pitchers and catchers should at all times be expecting that the other team is stealing signs, whether that team is doing it or not. They need to be more sophisticated in their signs, or trick the hitter with a false sign every now and then to see if they are in fact stealing signs.
I know, you’re going to say pitchers and catchers shouldn’t have to do this. Sign stealing has been going on for decades, pitchers and catchers have to protect themselves against this. It’s like not using an antivirus on your computer. Hackers shouldn’t do what they do, but you’re a fool if you don’t try to protect yourself.
I agree. A strong suspension would have made sense. Banning them for life is silly.
On another note, I watched your Sox in person celebrate at Minute Maid in 2005. Also saw Blummer hit that HR in game 3. Epic. Hardest things I’ve ever had to watch in sports as an Astros fan, but it was glorious baseball all the same!
@ThePentaverate
As crazy as it sounds, that had to be one of the most exciting sweeps in WS history. Every game was close. The Astros could’ve just as easily swept the Sox.
And for the record, I rooted for the Astros in ’17, and I do not regret it one bit even to this day. I don’t care if there was a little cheating involved with the sign stealing, the Astros WS championship is legit as far as I’m concerned. The sign stealing got way overblown.
I agree and I appreciate you saying it. I understand why people are so mad too.
People are sleeping on the White Sox this season. It wouldn’t shock me at all if it’s the White Sox and not the Twins who win the central. I think the Twins will regress. Everyone wants the Yankees or Dodgers to be the ones who beat the Astros in the playoffs. It also wouldn’t shock me if it’s the White Sox who do it. Good luck to you guys!
None of the Astro players have been punished yet, the punishment will start as soon as the season starts, per Vegas the over under is around 85 hits batters for the year, we will see