On this date a year ago, the White Sox signed All-Star catcher Yasmani Grandal to a four-year, $73MM free agent contract. That proved to be the biggest splash of an eventful 2019-20 offseason for the South Siders, who also extended face of the franchise (and future MVP) José Abreu and brought in Dallas Keuchel and Edwin Encarnación.
Chicago’s active offseason clearly signaled they believed their rebuild was through. The hope was that Grandal’s two-way prowess would help solidify the pitching staff and add some offense to a lineup that had been below-average in 2019. In the first year of the deal, the 32-year-old delivered.
Grandal posted a .230/.351/.422 slash line with eight home runs over 194 plate appearances. A spike in strikeouts contributed to that meager .230 batting average, but Grandal more than offset that by drawing plenty of walks and hitting for power. His 117 wRC+ indicates he was seventeen points better than the league average hitter this past season. That’s right in line with his career production and not too far off the pace of his prior two years.
Single-season defensive metrics are quite fluky; that’s all the more true in a season prorated to sixty games. Nevertheless, it’s worth noting Grandal also rated as a top five pitch framer in the sport in 2020, per Statcast. That’s par for the course, as the former first-rounder perennially rates as one of the league’s best at stealing strikes. He also cut down six of thirteen attempted base stealers. There’s no question Grandal was a key piece of Chicago’s 35-25 record, which was enough to qualify for the expanded postseason format.
Grandal’s continued presence on the roster is a big reason the Sox aren’t expected to re-sign James McCann, who profiles as the second-best catcher on the market this offseason on the heels of a monster 2020 effort. Wherever McCann ends up, the White Sox should still have one of the league’s best catching situations. GM Rick Hahn and the rest of the front office have to be pleased with the initial return on their biggest investment last winter.
Sign Springer and Bauer!
as a twins fan, that would hurt.
but honestly, as of today, i would say the sox win the central. kills me to say, but i think it’s the truth.
I’m guessing the White Sox will kick the tires on George Springer and Trevor Bauer but I’d be surprised if they signed either one of them.
Springer would be the more likely of the two with Jerry Reinsdorf previously signing off on a huge bid for Manny Machado two offseasons ago. Springer is older and would be fortunate to command a contract worth half the value of Machado’s during a winter with so much financial uncertainty due to COVID-19. That said, I’m guessing that Springer sign with a different color Sox this winter. I have him returning to his native New England, signing with the Red Sox and reuniting with Alex Cora. He will replace the bat of Mookie Betts in the Boston batting order and the glove of FA Jackie Bradly Jr. in CF.
Bauer will be too pricey for JR’s tastes. The White Sox have historically been less willing to dish out huge contracts to pitchers. I have Bauer returning to Southern California and signing with the Angels, something many thought would happen last winter with Gerrit Cole who wound up signing with his ‘beloved’ Yankees instead.
If the White Sox use free agency to solve their their two biggest holes this offseason, I have them signing a lefty bat like Joc Pederson or Adam Eaton for RF and pursuing a cheaper veteran or two for their rotation such as Jake Odorizzi and Jose Quintana. I could even see them take another flyer on free agent RF Yasiel Puig this winter who will be far more humble in his contract demands than last winter.
I have a gut feeling that if the White Sox do land a controllable TOR this offseason it might come via a blockbuster trade. I believe the front office will consider dealing some of their ‘surplus’ young arms and/or bats this offseason in the right deal. They might have a nice match with the Rockies who are looking to shed salary this winter. The White Sox could kill two birds with one stone by making a pitch for young ace SP Germán Márquez and veteran RF Charlie Blackmon.
If the Sox do not land either Bauer or Springer, I feel this team is going nowhere, honestly. At least in 2021. You seemed to be optimistic they would maybe land Bauer up until now, no? No need to give up hope this early.
The whole point of the way they did the rebuild was so that they would be able to land a top free agent or two to really finish things off, without trading anyone. Grandal is not an elite player, he’s an above average player but not a difference maker like Bauer or Springer. I’ve said before, if Grandal is as far as this team is willing to go or spend via the FA route, this will wind up a waste of unbelievable talent, with the “rebuild” proving nothing more than a cheap sham.
What would they do, trade somebody like Kopech who might turn out to be an ace, for a reliable starter because they are too cheap to sign a good pitcher? I don’t think they will go that route personally. I certainly hope not. If they don’t get Springer or Bauer, I hope they do nothing this offseason really, rather than sign marginal type players like they’ve done for the past 3 decades, and constrain themselves from signing anyone really good next year. If the ownership ultimately proves once again too cheap to spend, we’re all wasting our time following this in the first place. If their offseason changes are limited to getting mediocre upgrades like Pederson and Quintana, I wouldn’t waste a dime buying a ticket, or pay attention to them at all.
I never had any great optimism for the White Sox signing Bauer. Springer would be far more likely but I believe he will sign with Boston for the reasons I expressed in my comment along with the fact he would remain at his preferred position of CF, something he wouldn’t do in Chicago with Luis Robert locked in there for up to 7 more seasons.
I feel the White Sox can be a viable World Series contender as soon as 2021 without signing Bauer or Springer. They could take the dollars needed to sign a premium free agent and spread it around more. I’d be OK if they signed a FA like Joc Pederson, Adam Eaton, Robbie Grossman or Yasiel Puig to play RF. Id also be fine with a veteran SP or two like Jake Odorizzi and Jose Quintana. They could hypothetically sign two SP’s, a RF and still have enough money to throw at James McCann for the dollars it would take to sign Bauer alone. There’s also nothing wrong with the front office using cash this offseason to lock up Lucas Giolito, Nick Madrigal and Andrew Vaughn to long term contract extensions.
The White Sox could also make an impacting trade for a young ace like Márquez or perhaps a RF like Alex Verdugo which would be my preference to fill both voids depending on the cost of the young talent going back.
I would point out that the Sox were under .500 versus all teams outside of Detroit, KC, Pittsburgh. Glaring weaknesses and over-rated strengths, and an inflated record. I see zero possibility of them competing seriously without much better upgrades than those you suggest. We saw this last year… Encarnacion, Gonzalez, Mazara, Cishek. 2/3 of their offseason additions last winter, lower tier, cheap alternatives which amounted to nothing.
I maintain that if Grandal is the centerpiece of their FA additions, the chance of this team winning the whole thing is close to zero, and is probably actually zero. I’ve been a fan way too long to be duped into believing that they can get by with bargain basement upgrades and hope that puts them among the best teams, many of which are willing to spend toward real players like Springer, Bauer, or even Ozuna. Either they spend competitively, or it’s naive optimism which will end in disappointment and mediocrity. Every time.
I’v been a fan since the ‘go-go’ days of the early 1960’s. There have been very few instances, if any where the White Sox had a core of so many All-Star caliber players simultaneously, especially with the youth of their projected 2021 roster. More than a couple of these players also have MVP type potential going forward.
I’d love to be proven wrong with the White Sox making a big splash in free agency this offseason but it isn’t imperative. I just can’t see JR and the FO offering the necessary dollars to secure Bauer and I’m not convinced that type of outlay would be wise for ANY starting pitcher anyway. I also believe the mix of Bauer with Tony La Russa might be like oil and water.
As I’ve said before, Springer would be a fine addition but I just don’t see it playing out for the reasons I already stated. Marcell Ozuna isn’t even a fit for the White Sox lineup as a FA who can only play LF or DH unless they move one of Eloy Jimenez or Andrew Vaughn to acquire a controllable TOR which most fans would be opposed to.
A big move for the sake of being splashy doesn’t always work out. Losing out on 3B/SS Manny Machado two years ago was a blessing. The White Sox interest in him over RF Bryce Harper was always a head scratcher for me because the latter is exactly the type of player they now seek to balance out their batting order and slot into RF. That said, even Harper likely won’t be worth the investment the Phillies committed to him for the next decade.
The Cubs have a major case of buyer remorse with their Jason Heyward signing five years ago when he was a WAR darling in his prime. I wasn’t a critic of the signing back then and to this day have never been a Heyward basher. I think a lot of his initial problems had to do with misuse by his ‘genius’ manager. If the White Sox want to upgrade RF with a Gold Glove player and add a high OBP bat to their lineup they could do worse than take Heyward off the Cubs hands. At this point in time they could have him for nothing but his contract or offer the Cubs a lotto pick to buy down a bit of his remaining salary. Heyward would give the White Sox another solid veteran clubhouse leader and a second prominent black player to pair with Tim Anderson on Chicago’s southside. He does have a full no-trade clause but I believe would be very happy staying in Chicago and playing for a White Sox team poised to win a championship or three. His acquisition might also be a good move to help stabilize a clubhouse that now features Anderson and new manager Tony La Russa.
I can see the White Sox making Tim Anderson a centerpiece in that trade.
ChiSox: IF the Yankees pursue McCann as a catching option, and frankly I don’t see them getting JTR or Contreras at this point, do you think he is worth it for the Yankees on a long-term FA investment? I’ve seen his stats but I have not watched him play day in and day out like you guys have.
Yankees need a catcher who is proficient on defense, who can also contribute on offense. Imho this may be the most important piece of their offseason with SP a close second.
McCann wouldn’t be the flashy add most Yankees fans would want to see, but he could be just what they need. The work he does with the pitchers is unbelievable. Lucas Giolito was a night/day different pitcher with Grandal or McCann behind the plate. He’s calls a tremendous game and is very solid defensively. Needs a little work in pitch framing but greatly improved in that area last season after making it a focal point.
Offensively, he’s a contact hitter with occasional pop. He goes to all fields with it (which I love in a hitter) and is able to drive on in the gap or for a homer if he gets a mistake.
I think whatever team signs him to a starting role will happy with their results. Very well rounded option that won’t cost a fortune. I wish we were resigning him, but we have bigger holes elsewhere.
As a Yankees fan, I would prefer to see an emphasis on pitching and defense and not “flashy” players. I lived through the ‘80s. Yankees have the highest winning % in the 80’s, but no championships. Then, like now, lots of hitting, not enough pitching and defense.
McCann is also a leader – and would be a stabilizing factor for the Yankees.
McCann is a plus hitter at the position, but his greatest asset his intangible leadership behind the plate… Much of Giolitto’s success can be attributed to McCann
I want the Yankees to sign him just to hear John Sterling singing the “(Mc)can-can” every time he hits a HR.
I’d say McCann is definitely worth it, but I’d be unsure about a long-term investment. Before 2019, he was a little below-average at the plate, even for a catcher. His offense has come a long way in his time in Chicago, obviously, but at his age, I wouldn’t offer more than three years and would prefer two years with a team option.
no way buddy
Not going to happen
When McCann goes the Chisox are definitely hurting. Grandal may have had good marks for framing, but he can’t catch – or block – pitches. He is horrible at that part of the job.
In one sequence last year with runners on second and third, Grandal allowed both runners to score, in 3 pitches. It was comical. One of the 2 he missed, he actually whiffed on it. The other one he missed because he didn’t slide over to block the pitch.
And please don’t try to say that Zack Collins has shown anything to indicate he is MLB ready. The Sox are going to miss McCann big time.
Nailed it. As much as Grandal was good for this team, McCann should be the starting catcher. They should trade Grandal while he’s still worth something and resign McCann to be the man behind the plate.
I totally agree. Trade Grandal for pitching and try to sign McCann on a three-year deal.
The Brokenheart Kid
Your suggestion just blew my mind.
I wonder what the trade market for Grandal would be like this winter. I don’t see your idea happening, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t. There is a lot a merit to it and you could argue a pretty solid case in favor of it.
If the Sox did that, then Grandal instantly becomes the 2nd-best C available. With several teams hurting at the position, they’d get some decent value for him, especially with the money JTR is expected to command, more if the Sox are willing to eat some of the contract to buy a better return. I think Grandal is better than he played in 2020, though not worlds better, and I still expect McCann to decline a little bit. All things being equal, I’d rather have McCann, but I think the Sox roll with Grandal next year and let McCann go.
Has Collins given any indication that he isn’t MLB ready? I mean, he’s barely played. The Sox have let him rot in every sense because they’re idiots, especially since he showed up in phenomenal shape this past year. At the very least they should have been letting him DH instead of Encarnacion.
When Collins was signed, there were big questions as whether he would stay behind the plate. He’s been passable, but still unproven. The reason Collins wasn’t used more, or used as DH – is because he is hasn’t shown he can make contact – even in the minors.
There’s never been any mystery behind his offensive game; he hits for power and gets on base, which is ironically what Grandal does as well. The Sox have had years of bad catching/DH recently when they should have been letting Collins get his feet wet.
Collins actually had a terrific year in AAA in 2019. Collins hasn’t had too many at bats since the White Sox brought him up since other guys blocked him from getting playing time in the last two years. Collins will get more playing time as Grandal’s back up and will most likely be Cease’s catcher since he was in the minor leagues.
There is an added element that could be a positive for the White Sox in 2021 with Yasmani Grandal starting and Zack Collins as his primary backup. The two have had a long relationship going back to 2010 when Grandal was drafted by the Reds from the University of Miami and Collins was considering a move to the catching position as a 15-year high school player: nbcsports.com/chicago/chicago-white-sox/zack-colli…
Didnt the dodgers bench him in the playoffs be cause of his defense one year?
No, Collins wasn’t with LAD.
He’s asking about Grandal, and yes, Grandal missed a game or two because of defensive deficiencies.
Wasn’t Collins a drummer for a Rock band?
It was more so because Barnes simply out played him. Plus it was also the same year his wife was having a very complicated child birth, and he flew back to be with her a couple times that post season. So yes, but there were also a significant amount of other factors.
That was his English uncle Phil. His great grandfather Tom was a noted mixologist.
Yes most people don’t know Phil Collins is Zack’s uncle. Good one!
People talked about how Dodgers fans would miss him. Trust me, we don’t. I’m sorry, he’s the South Sides problem now. And I do wish all White Sox fans luck in any playoff game.
I always liked Grandal, he’s a nice guy and an excellent hitter, but his defense is terrible, always has been.
Neither do I. Ultra-streaky hitter and defensively challenged. At a game a couple of years ago after a series of defensive misuses they had him running ball-handling drills in the bullpen before the game. And don’t get me started on pitch framing.
Will miss McCann. He calls a good game and had some clutch hits.
I wish the Tigers never let him go. I’m still absolutely baffled. One of Avila’s big doozies! DET will need some luck and the highest bid to get him back. But, I think ChiSox are in good hand w/ Grandal.
I bet Tigers fans wish they’d kept him, but at the time, he was a fairly good defender who was a little below average, even for a C, at the plate. There wasn’t anything to suggest he’d have two breakout years. Sometimes, a change of scenery is all it takes.
Id Honestly rather have McCann. He just seems to “get it” with the pitchers
IDK? I Like Grandal too, but I think McCann mite have the overall advantage. Dang good catcher. Tuff to find great catchers. Hope the Sox keep both of em.
I’d say 50:1 odds of them keeping both. I expect McCann will cost at least $8M, so they’d be paying some $26M for their catchers. That’s an awful lot, even though it’s an important position, especially when they have a much bigger need in RF. Having one or the other is great; having both is just a luxury, and we know how Reinsdorf feels about overspending on his team.
Man, looking back, I had such a good feeling when this signing happened. Like it was *the signal* that we were past our rebuild and ready to do some damage. Grandal was and still is an excellent signing and I am so glad to have him along for this ride the next three seasons.
Hopefully, it won’t be long for the boys on the South Side to announce their 2020-21 offseason additions by signing Joc Pederson or Robbie Grossman, Trevor Bauer, James Paxton, or (or Trade for Brandon Woodruff, Eduardo Rodriguez, Lance Lynn, Tony Gosolin, or even someone like Zac Gallen if I could aim high).
Why on earth are people thinking the Sox should sign Grossman? He’s a .250 career hitter just like Pederson, only without the power. He is literally just terrible. Why wouldn’t they just let Engel start every day instead, he is likely way better than Grossman. The fact that Grossman is a lefty does not matter – he is a lefty that cannot hit!! Put him hitting behind Robert, Robert would likely not see good pitches the whole season.
Plus all Chicago sports fans are traumatized by the name… I will never forget comedians making fun of Rex the week after that Superbowl!
Grossman had a great year. .350 career OBP. That’s a good player.
Engel’s OBP was close to the same. Grossman has played 8 years with a career high of 11 homers, and a .250 career average. I’m sure Engel can do that well all by himself. They should go big in RF or do nothing, it’s not as if Engel is a horrible player with no potential. Why sign somebody unlikely to do much better than Engel?
Grossman, no, Pederson, maybe. But I’d much rather see either Springer or Brantley in RF.
Michael Brantley would be a liability in RF with his below average arm. It’s the primary reason he has only played 9 games there in his 12-year MLB career. He did play CF with a bit of frequency early in his career but has primarily been a LF since 2013. As Brantley continues to age he will likely see more time in the DH role and less in LF. He has a similar defensive profile to FA Marcell Ozuna with neither being an ideal fit for a White Sox team that needs a RF and not a LF/DH.
I’m not saying he would be great in right, but Ozuna did win a gold glove in left like 3 years ago. I can’t believe he would be much worse than Mazara, or as bad in right as Eloy is in left. Not ideal, but his bat is so good that I think he is a candidate. In his career he has played plenty of center in addition to left. I’m sure they would consider him for RF.
I’m not a fan of Pederson, but compared to Grossman I would take him in a heartbeat. He at least has a chance to be a decent enough hitter to make a platoon with Engel somewhat worthwhile. But unless it’s a 1 year deal I’d stick with Engel, personally. I still don’t like the idea that they have to make do with 2nd and 3rd tier guys. If that’s how they approach free agency every year, I will put their chances of coming up short every year as extremely high, and predictably so. I think they will spend at some point, not like the Dodgers but enough where they will get somebody better than Grandal as the main free agent addition to the rebuild. They pretty much have to in order to complete it the right way.
Its hard to look at the signing in retrospection, without considering what the other in house catcher provided them. McCann provided a solid bat, excellent throwing arm, good game calling, the ability to block balls in the dirt. He even improved on the mythical strike stealing. IMO, the signing of Grandall simply put the better catcher to the bench more often. While it hasn’t been a failure, I see it as the “brain trust” of the white sox spending money for a low priority position. How did RF work out?
Idioms for Idiots
Sounds like sour grapes for giving away McCann to the Sox.
IA Dodger 78
He struggled 1 postseason for the Dodgers and had numerous past balls so they benched him in favor of Barnes. He had historically been one of the better defensive catchers in the game so claims that he was terrible defensivly are not accurate but he was always very streaky at the plate.
They let him walk because of the young depth they had coming up and needing the $$ for other spots on the roster.
The White Sox are so awful at drawing walks they must have Grandal in that lineup to extend some pitch counts and get some free passes. They need the lefty bat balance too. He did exactly what the organization expected and needed from him last year.
Grandal is a very good C, but not worth that much
@dark side: A ‘very good’ catcher is worth ‘that much’. Grandal is NOT a very good catcher, he is NOT worth ‘that much’.
He even had problems catching throws from the outfield. Remember? Was only a couple months ago.
Jumping Jack Gash
Actually he is worth that much. That’s what the market was willing to pay him. Look into basic economics.
Whatever Grandal is worth, this team is going nowhere if he is the best free agent they wind up signing to compete the rebuild.
Baseball is life
Can we please start taking a hard look at modern metrics. Just because they are a shiny new toy doesnt mean they’re better than traditional stats or the eye test. I love walks but since when is a .230 BA a successful offensive season? Also anyone who watched Grandal catch even for a month can see he is a butcher defensively with no mobility. Yet it seems the shiny new metric of pitch framing is all that matters these days.
.230 is a good average if ur hitting xbh and walking a lot
Grandal has typically fared well with his “modern metrics” including a 117 wRC+ in 2020 which was in line with his past production. That is an especially good number for a catcher. Pitch framing will become a stat of the past once the electronic strike zone is implemented. I don’t see that happening until at least 2022 as part of the new CBA which gives Grandal added defensive value for at least one more season. He does have trouble with passed balls but has also been among the best catchers at thwarting the oppositions running game.
Pitch framing should already be a stat of the past. Nobody makes any effort to explain what methods a catcher can use to fool an umpire into calling a strike on a pitch out of the zone, and if such a method exists, why some catchers have this skill and others don’t. It’s a total black box stat. A bunch of data is shoved into one side of the box, some numbers come out the other side, but nobody has even a theory let alone an explanation for what is happening inside the box.
The explanation is in how you position your glove, depending on the type of pitch. I wish I could remember all the details, because it was interesting. The idea was to minimize the movement of the glove in the eyes of the ump.
If it’s as simple as that, why doesn’t every catcher do it? And how do you explain this influencing an umpire, when each and every one of them will tell you they call pitches based on where they cross the plate, not where the catcher catches it?
When he has a .352 OBP and 15 of his 37 hits are for extra bases.
“Passed-Ball” Grandal… Cant tell you how relieved I was as a Dodger fan that they did not sign him. Not that he’s a terrible catcher, or a bad person or anything. There was just something missing. He would zone out, forget what pitch he called, or not catch a perfect throw to get the runner coming home. Nice bat, but when C is THE most important defensive position on the field you dont want a guy there that acts like he’s got ADD.
Oh how baseball has changed. Articles back in the day would have not said “he delievered” in his first year of a 4 year $73 mil deal with a weak avg and high strikeouts. He would have been booed out of town. Good to see baseball transform into a more complete analysis of players value. Albeit, I’d argue this article is overstating how well he did for that kind of money… lol
Obviously the writer of this article, doesn’t watch much Chisox baseball.
What other catcher will give you the kind of defense and offense that Grandal offers for less than $20 million a year? This was the first season since 2014 catchers had a wRC+ of 90 or greater. If you have a 100 wRC+ as a catcher, you’re automatically one of the better hitters at the position. Grandal had a 117 wRC+ to go with +5 DRS and +4 framing runs.
1225, is that a real question? James McCann, who they could’ve re-signed for less instead of signing Grandal. Travis d’Arnaud was available when they signed Grandal. He signed for $8 million a year.
By taking a quick glance at what they had in-house and who else was available in the same free agent class, this was an awful signing. Grandal is older, less productive and far more expensive than the other available options.
Sox are definitely a team on the rise, power and pitching, they have a solid foundation for a great club and will give the twins a run, with LaRussa @ the helm they prob will continue to pick up pieces to solidify the ALC
Jumping Jack Gash
They’ll have to get LaRussa off the sauce first.
I didn’t see the writer mention it, but Grandal only started 32 of the 60 games at acatcher, due to the fact that McCann was pretty good.
He probably felt almost no ill effects from catching. That has to be considered when assessing his production from 2020.
Someone in here had the excellent idea of the WS re-signing McCann and trading Grandal. I’m not sure anyone would take him at his age and price tag, but it also might not take much more than the WS chipping in $2-3M per to make it happen. If the NYY lose out on JTR, they might be interested in Grandal.
Dump Grandal. Keep McCann
I had more than a few fans question me when I suggested that the White Sox should have considered extending a qualifying offer to James McCann. Reading the comments here would seem to negate much of that criticism.
I had many solid arguments for a QO to McCann. I liked the idea of the White Sox potentially having Grandal and McCann share the load for one more season in 2021 like they did during the abbreviated 2020 season. Grandal isn’t getting any younger at 32 and would be ideally used as a starting catcher 3 to 4 games per week or about 90-100 during a full 162 game season. When Grandal wasn’t catching or resting he could have been utilized in the DH role and as a backup at 1B much like last season.
McCann could have also continued his relationship of catching ace Lucas Giolito for one more season. With the recent appointment of Giolito’s mentor Ethan Katz as the new pitching coach, Lucas could have been primed for a top run at the AL Cy Young Award in 2021. Extending a QO to McCann would have had two outcomes, neither of which was bad. McCann accepts and remains an important part of their catching mix for one more season or he rejects the offer and the White Sox wind up with a compensatory second round pick in the amatuer draft next July. It’s still possible that McCann could return as a free agent but a QO might have guaranteed his presence on the White Sox in 2021.
As I recall, you didn’t get push-back on your opinion that the WS should retain McCann. You got push-back on the suggestion that the WS give McCann an $18.6MM QO. Regardless of all the good things people are saying here about McCann, I think few (if any) would still agree with the idea of giving McCann an $18.6MM QO.
Thanks Mo. I think we all know that Reinsdorf blew his budget on Grandal. Anyone thinking the WS will be making a serious bid for Springer or Bauer, is just kidding themselves. Likely they are the same people who still are waiting for Barry Bonds or Machado to fall into the WS laps, for under market salaries.
Idioms for Idiots
8 yr/$250MM is considered under market for Machado? LMFAO
That would’ve been one of the 10 richest contracts in MLB history at the time had he signed it. Certainly sounds like a low-ball offer to me.
@83sox94win05 yes it would be considered under market for Machado. Why? Because he is worth MORE than that. Mike Trout’s contract is under market for him despite being for even more $ than that because he is simply worth MORE than that.
If you offer a guy way less than he is worth and way less than he is capable of getting like the White Sox did with Machado, it’s a low-ball offer. Even if it is technically a lot of money.
Other than the idea that your worth is what the market says you’re worth, monetary values for players are largely arbitrary. Fans that think you can calculate literal worth are mistaken. I’d say Trout is overpaid. Any team that pays him is going to have their budget hamstrung by his contract. Any talk that says we know he’s personally generating such and such income for the team is just baseless speculation.
The applicable question really is could the Angels replace Trout’s production for less $ in free agency? If not then he is underpaid.
But back to the White Sox, they absolutely low-balled Machado. It is certainly possible that the Padres end up regretting giving him that contract, but because they did, that means the White Sox low-balled him. And then they threw a temper tantrum when he wouldn’t accept their low-ball offer.
MoRivera 1999: That is mostly true. However, many of those same commenters are now suggesting the White Sox do everything in their power to retain McCann as a free agent while potentially trading Grandal. How likely is that to occur with McCann looking at a starting gig, especially from among the losers in the J.T. Realmuto derby? Theoretically, the White Sox could field offers for Grandal as we post and then try to re-sign McCann as soon as a deal for Yasmani can be struck. The timing of that would be improbable to say nothing of the fact that many teams might rather have McCann as a free agent over Grandal anyway if they agree with most of the commenters here. Why would the White Sox even considering the risk of losing both catchers and be faced with the prospect of having Zack Collins as their #1 backstop?
Most agreed that McCann would have accepted that $18.6MM QO which would have guaranteed him a spot on the roster in 2021. Had that happened, then the White Sox could have begun fielding offers for Grandal this offseason, perhaps even waiting on the Realmuto outcome to drive a harder bargain among the losers. The worst case scenario would have been having two All-Star caliber catchers on their roster for the entirety of the 2021 season. At a position where injury is a higher probability than most others aside from pitchers, having both McCann and Grandal would have been an insurance policy even Jerry Reinsdorf could afford.
Idioms for Idiots
Are you serious? $31.25MM/yr for 8 years is a lowball offer? Machado’s good, but he’s definitely not that good to call that a lowball offer.
If you have to ask if you’re going to get the ’19 Machado or the ’20 Machado next year, that tells you he’s not among the elite.
@83sox94win05 if another team is offering him $300m guaranteed then yes, that is ABSOLUTELY a lowball offer.
I don’t think it negates that criticism because the QO is worth near $18M and McCann just isn’t. Good, yes; if he played in 2021 like he did in 2020, absolutely, but I expect regression back to somewhere between 2019 and his average before he came to the White Sox. Still useful and well above average for a C, but not worth $18M. If the Sox had as much money as the Dodgers or Yankees (or were willing to spend it), fine, but they have a much more pressing need in RF. I’d be open to them trading Grandal and re-signing McCann, but it’d probably be for half the QO on an AAV.
hyraxwithaflamethrower: With quality catchers at a premium in MLB, don’t you think the White Sox could have used Grandal in a trade to acquire their future core RF?
Idioms for Idiots
I still have no problem with the Grandal. They signed one of the best C’s in the game at a price that didn’t break the bank for the team. Yet, this move showed they actually will shell out some money for the right player.
Remember, when the Sox signed Grandal, McCann was coming off a good season, but regressed later in ’19. It’s very possible he could’ve been a one-year wonder. What happens if the Sox went all-in on McCann and he turned out to be a bust in ’20? The Sox would’ve been kicking themselves for passing on Grandal. Thankfully McCann wasn’t a one-year wonder, but it’s a lot easier to rip the Sox on letting McCann go with hindsight.
It would be great to have a crystal ball that could tell the future with 100% accuracy–what a life you could live. Hindsight is always a nice thing to have handy when criticizing a move. Even with McCann leaving, they made the right choice signing Grandal. Maybe it’s a little harder to see with a slow start in a 60-game season.
LOL, ‘a slow start’.
Grandal did what most reasonable people expected him, to do. He’s just not that good. Sox overpaid at a position, and for a player, they didn’t need. He only batted that high in the lineup because they sorely lacked left handed bats.
Oh, and yes- for Reinsdorf, it pretty much did break the bank.
Idioms for Idiots
You really have no grasp of the game. It’s evident every time you post. Grandal’s considered one of the best C’s in the game. Not a lot of people will argue that…well, except you.
I have to hand it to you, you are your own man, you beat to your own drum. You don’t let research, facts, or common sense cloud your judgment. Though that makes it very easy to debunk your silly claims.
Idioms for Idiots
Almost forgot, I see your Cubs signed Hoyer for 5 years.
Have fun with that. LMFAO
Guys, they played only 60 games this year. One can’t compare that to a full 162 game season.
Despite all the negative rhetoric being posted here regarding Yasmani Grandal, can we at least agree that he has been among the best overall catchers in MLB over the course of his 9-year career?
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned one particular fact regarding Grandal. He has appeared in the postseason for 6 straight seasons now, ever since his trade from the Padres to the Dodgers back in December of 2014. Perhaps 4 of those were given with LA but Grandal helping the Brewers reach the playoffs in 2019 and the White Sox last season were not so certain.
Clearly, MLB is not the NBA were one starting player can make a huge difference between having a chance for postseason glory or sitting home. The fact that Grandal has contributed to helping 3 different teams reach the playoffs for 6 consecutive seasons shouldn’t be discounted, especially playing a position that might be the most important on the diamond when considering all it involves including the factor of leadership. An impacting catcher in MLB might be the closest comp to an NFL QB, a position where reaching the playoffs is an important measuring stick in their legacy in a sport that has even more players on the field than baseball.
He was on these teams but that’s a long way from proving that he carried them into the playoffs. He has always been a highly inconsistent hitter, and his postseason production has been completely awful. Every catcher has to be the most knowledgeable player on the field. It’s their job, so doing it is nothing special, unless they do it in a very special way. I never saw Grandal as being special in that department.
My comment stated that Grandal “contributed to helping 3 different teams reach the playoffs for 6 consecutive seasons”, not “that he carried them into the playoffs”. Fact is, it would be quite a feat for any single MLB player to carry a team to the playoffs. Case in point: Mike Trout.
People forget to mention that Grandal is from Cuba just like Abreu, Moncada, Robert and Sanchez (Yolbert). By the way, I see Sanchez replacing Anderson as the short stop in the next year.
The White Sox have control over Tim Anderson through 2024. He has improved tremendously as a hitter during the past two seasons while his defense at SS was well above average in 2020. Anderson is every bit the “face” of the White Sox as Jose Abreu, so much so that the White Sox would be smart to have a ‘Janus’ promotional giveaway in their honor if we are fortunate enough to be attending games in 2021.
As for Yolbert Sánchez, he is only 4 years younger than Anderson and has yet to play a game stateside after spending his first and only professional season in the Dominican Summer League in 2019. Sánchez came from Cuba with a highly regarded glove at SS and did show some offensive promise in the DSL. To suggest that he will be MLB ready late in 2021 or even 2022 as a utility infielder would be a stretch, let alone having him supplant Anderson as the White Sox starting SS.
The White Sox do have two years left with Anderson right now then two years of club options with he receives a little pay bump after 2022. Anderson has been vocal with the White Sox brining in LaRussa as the manager. Meanwhile the White Sox quietly signed Tim Beckham who is the same player as Anderson but is better at defense than Anderson.
Speaking of Anderson’s defense, he had the most errors and was considered the worst defensive short stop in all of the MLB in 2019. I believe Anderson only played 120 games in 2019 yet he won the batting title by only a few points over LaMahieu.
For Yolbert Sanchez the White Sox are really high on him. People tend to forget he is from Cuba and played in the Cuban league with Robert.
I can see Anderson as a centerpiece in a potential trade piece.
What’s with all the Tim Anderson disrespect? He’s an electric player, someone who has managed to overshadow another in SS Javier Baez locally. Anderson has always possessed elite athleticism as a former highly regarded prep basketball star. He decided to focus on baseball later than normal and that decision is now paying huge dividends for the White Sox.
Anderson’s bat is electric. He won the AL Batting Title in 2019 and finished second in 2020. He also generates tremendous power with his bat speed and ability to barrell the ball consistently. His only flaw is drawing walks but that has improved the past two years with his rise in BA. He also has become more selective at the plate and is much better at working the count in his favor. He also possesses elite speed and has utilized that effectively with his ability to steal bases in a proficient manner.
Anderson’s elite athleticism has also made him into an above average defender at SS. He struggled early on with his consistency and high error totals, some of which occur because he gets to more balls than most. In 2018 he became a plus defender by most advanced analytic measures, then regressed a bit in 2019 when his bat took off. Last season he was back to his 2018 defensive numbers while continuing to grow as one of the best hitters in all of MLB. All this contributed to his 7th place finish in the AL MVP race while also earning his first Silver Slugger Award.
Your biggest disrespect was trying to compare Anderson to Tim Beckham who the White Sox signed to a minor league deal as a potential utility infield option in 2021. The White Sox were looking to add some veteran insurance with 2B Nick Madrigal not guaranteed to be 100% ready by opening day with his October shoulder procedure.
As for Yolbert Sánchez, his likely contribution to the White Sox will be as a solid utility infielder come 2022 or 2023. His glove is said to be MLB ready as a shortstop but his bat is the big question mark. He is also an older prospect at 22 and missing out with no minor league season in 2020 did nothing to help his chances of reaching the big leagues any sooner. If Sánchez’ bat can catch up to his elite glove, the White Sox will have a nice problem to ponder when Anderson reaches his still affordable team options in 2023 and 2024.
There is no disrespect towards Anderson, but he only won the batting title in 2019 by a few points while missing 40 games while leading the league in errors and was considered the worse short stop in baseball when it came to statistics. Everyone knew Anderson was athletic and a good hitter before he was brought up while his defense and fielding needed to be worked on. Anderson only played in 49 games this season and finished 42 points below LaMahieu. The issue with Anderson right now is him being vocal with LaRussa being the manager with not changing his style of play. That’s all I am saying is that Anderson can be a distraction.
What is wrong with you? Tim Anderson was neck and neck with DJ LeMahieu for the AL Batting Title last year until he slumped in the final week while the latter continued to rake. TA still finished 2020 with .322/.357/.529 triple slash and led the AL with 45 runs scored. TA broke his late slump by crushing to the tune of a 1.429 OPS in the White Sox 3 game defeat by the A’s. Both won Silver Slugger Awards at their respective positions and received MVP votes with DJ a finalist at #3 and TA finishing #7.
Wow, something is wrong with me when mentioning facts! Individual accomplishments don’t mean nothing to me when a player can start becoming a distraction. Anderson hardly won the batting title in 2019 while missing over 40 games while committing the most errors in the MLB and was the considered the worse defensive short stop. Anderson missed 40 games while only beating out LaMahieu only by a few points in 2019. There is a good chance Anderson would have never won the batting title and had more errors if played more games.
I am not knocking Anderson for his talent, but he did call out the hiring of LaRussa with saying he won’t change his game then having a chat with him just had me wondering if the front office told him something.
What you are suggesting is the White Sox need to compound an already controversial managerial hire with the more ludicrous notion of trading one of their best players. That the White Sox should trade an MVP caliber talent in his prime, one who plays a premium position and the only prominent African-American player on their projected 2021 roster for a team that resides in Chicago’s southside, all to accommodate a manager who may or may not have a problem with modern black players. lol
My notion is the Sox locked up its future core with signing Moncada, Jiminez and Robert while bringing Sanchez last summer who does play the same position as Anderson, who the White Sox are very high on in the future and he was teammates with Robert while playing in Cuba. Don’t forget the White Sox love their Cuban players. Anderson was signed to a team friendly deal with two years left then a team option after the 2022 season. Anderson has been playing good with hitting but his fielding always been suspect. As I mentioned before Anderson was the only player on the team that has been vocal about LaRussa being hired with saying he will not change his style of play. I saw an article today that Anderson and LaRussa had a talk where I am sure someone in the front office told those two to talk before stuff gets a little out of hand.
If the Sox can get a pitcher like Snell for Anderson with some prospects you are telling me the White Sox should not pull the trigger on that move?
Sox not getting rid of Anderson. He is the future face of the team and the fans love him.
People thought the same thing about Chris Sale but we saw what happened with him!
When the White Sox extended Tim Anderson back in March of 2017 it kicked off their recent flurry of contract extensions that coincided with the rebuild that began the previous December with the trades of Chris Sale and Adam Eaton. Anderson became the first player the front office identified as that “future core” you speak of.
The Anderson contract is a 6 yrs/$25M (17-22) deal with 23-24 team options. As we post, TA is halfway through those 8 years of potential team control. With his production over the past two seasons there is little reason the White Sox won’t pick up those two team options of $12.5MM and $14MM in 2023 and 2024 when he will still be in his prime at the ages of 30 and 31.
Even if the development of Yolbert Sanchez is swift and meets the highest expectations of the White Sox it’s a stretch to think his MLB debut would come any sooner than 2023 when they would need to decide on Anderson’s first team option.
Using Anderson this offseason as a trade chip to acquire Blake Snell is ludicrous on so many levels. First off, it would leave the White Sox with another hole to fill at SS. Secondly, the Rays are only considering unloading Snell and others like OF Kevin Kiermaier because they each have remaining AAV’s left on their contract extensions higher than what the White Sox will owe Anderson on his.
The answer to your question is a definitive NO! The White Sox will not use Anderson in any trade discussions with Tampa for Snell and/or Kiermaier. The Rays wouldn’t want Anderson due to his remaining salary along with the fact they already possess MLB’s #1 overall prospect in Wander Franco who also plays SS and is expected to make his MLB debut sometime in 2021.
Idioms for Idiots
I think it would be foolish to part with TA, with his nice contract and vastly improved play the last 2 years. He was supposed to nosedive in ’20 because his ’19 peripherals said so, yet it never happened. He’s the kind of player you love if he’s on your team, and you hate him if he’s on the other team (much like A.J. was).
His defense is a lot like Alexei’s was. He could make incredible plays, then boot the easy ones. Actually, a lot of his problem on D is he needs to know when to just eat the ball when he can’t get the guy at 1st, instead of throwing wildly trying to make a potential defensive play of the year. Sure, he could improve on D, but I don’t think he’s that far away. He doesn’t have to be Ozzie Smith. The combination of solid D with his offense is easily enough at SS.
I think by moving him you run into the same problem that happened when trading Rowand for Thome. I loved having Thome on the team, but by trading Rowand they lost a lot of that team cohesion they had, and they never got that cohesion back.
If I were to move him, I would want a ton in return, and I don’t see getting anything even close to what I would want for him. I know, anyone can be traded at the right price, but I just can’t see a trade that would make sense for the Sox AND the team trading for him.
I’d keep him the next 4 years without hesitation.
The White Sox can easily replace James McCann with Zack Collins. McCann’s offensive numbers through out his career are not spectacular where coming to the White Sox batting in this line up is actually helping him out more than he is helping them.
Idioms for Idiots
Behind the plate, there would be a step (or several) backwards with Collins, but offensively, absolutely I think Collins could easily replace McCann if Collins is ever given the chance. The Sox have badly mishandled Collins (and Mercedes for that matter). They play him once a week and can’t figure out why his hitting suffered. He looked decent in Sept ’19 when he played more than he sat. That right there should be a clue to play him more consistently.
And I think under the wing of Grandal, he might turn into a decent C behind the plate. If nothing else, he could fill in at DH if Abreu or Vaughn lands on the IL next year and beyond.
Collins was the personal catcher for Cease in the minor leagues. This may not be accurate but Collins always caught for Kopech as well.
I don’ think Grandal is all that he cracked up to be. To get rid of McCan and has some good power along with almost a ..300 average may b e stupid.
If the Sox do not get Bauer or Springer, there are some good trade options. I think if they focus on just one free agent it should be Bauer.
McCann never had good numbers before coming to the White Sox. It’s easy to look up. McCann has been benefiting with being in the same lineup with Abreu, Anderson, l Moncada and Jiminez in the past two seasons where we saw a spike in his offensive numbers spike up in 2019. However, there was a time in 2019 when Moncada, Anderson and Jiminez were all out of the line up then we saw McCann’s numbers drop. There is no point of signing McCann or giving him a qualifying offer to split time with Grandal as a catcher. Collins can do the same thing as McCann.