9:15pm: The teams have announced the deal.
8:35pm: The Blue Jays and Mets are closing in on a swap that would send lefty Steven Matz to Toronto, per Jeff Passan of ESPN.com (via Twitter). Robert Murray of Fansided tweeted that a trade between the clubs was coming; Michael Mayer of Metsmerized had tweeted that a Matz move was in the works.
Three right-handed pitchers will head back to New York in the arrangement: Josh Winckowski, Sean Reid-Foley, and Yennsy Diaz. (Via Murray, on Twitter, and Ben Nicholson-Smith of Sportsnet.ca, also via Twitter.)
Matz, 29, is due $5.2MM after agreeing to avoid arbitration. He will qualify for free agency after the 2021 campaign. The Mets obviously determined they could better allocate that salary for other needs. Whether it’ll be part of a big payout to lure Trevor Bauer remains to be seen; there’s still no reason to believe anything is imminent on that front.
While he has at times featured as a high-quality big-league starter, Matz has had his share of difficulties of late. The Long Island native wraps up a six-year run with the Mets having thrown 579 2/3 innings of 4.35 ERA ball.
While Matz made thirty starts apiece in 2018 and 2019, arm issues were a recurring problem. He spent time on the injured list in 2020 and ended the campaign with a brutal 9.68 ERA in just 30 2/3 frames of action.
That unfortunate short-season effort came with a few bright spots. Though Matz surrendered a ton of hard contact, he also managed a career-best 25.4% strikeout percentage while delivering his sinker at an average of 94.5 mph.
Clearly, the Jays believe Matz still possesses the necessary physical tools to deliver a good number of useful innings. He’ll likely have a chance to battle for a rotation spot in camp, though the team could also plan to use him in a swingman or even pure relief capacity.
The Mets will get some reward for deciding to tender Matz a contract. None of the three arms acquired come with high-grade prospect billing, but each will have a chance to contribute in the near term.
Both Reid-Foley and Diaz have debuted in the majors, meaning they also occupy 40-man roster spots (albeit with options remaining). The former threw 71 2/3 innings of 4.40 ERA ball over three seasons with the Jays, carrying a suboptimal 76:48 cumulative K/BB ratio. Diaz has just one appearance to his name, but turned in a solid showing at the Double-A level in 2019.
As for Winckowski, he’s still due for further seasoning. The 22-year-old reached the High-A level in 2019. Over 127 1/3 total frames that year, he turned in a sturdy 2.69 ERA. Winckowski will (again) be eligible for the Rule 5 draft after the 2021 campaign.
What’d I say Metsfan22? lmao
Yup lol
You should be happy Matz wont be shelled by Nats
Or The Phils
I was at Matz’s first game as a MLB player. He mowed down the Reds (unhappiness there for me) and also contributed at the plate. Thought he do more as a professional. Hopefully the change of scenery will help him.
Matz is no walk in the park when he is right. Capable 3rd starter if he gets right and stays right.
Matz is a very good hitter for a pitcher actually
Is Matz still an Ace now that he’s no longer with the Mets?
I will still be able to watch him in here. LOL
You always put words in my mouth.. it’s ok. I know you think about me.
I think he’s s obsessed with you.
Lol yeah.
Uh, where did I mention you or put words in your mouth here?
I asked if he was still an “Ace” now that he’s no longer with the Mets. That was in reference to the many times that your fan base and Mets media referred to the staff of Harvey, deGrom, Syndergaard, Matz and Wheeler as the “Five Aces”.
Sheesh…you all don’t even know your own team’s efforts to overrate their players.
You and MarlinsFanBase should catch a Mets vs Marlins game together. The exchanges between you two would be better than the game.
Hey don’t be angry. You should be celebrating that…lololololo…amazing signing of Bass. lololo. Man and I thought the Marlins would suck this year. Just tell him to pretend he is still pitching in Japan.
@jediknight
He quiets up when people try to have real baseball conversations with him. He still is avoiding talking about his time playing baseball over the years from little league to college. Apparently he feels that letting people know his age was more relevant to a baseball board.
It’d be great to have a baseball conversation to see how and why his mind works the way it does.
@86KMets
I know I know. Had the Mets signed Bass, you guys would be talking about how much of a stud he is. Look at how you all overrated all of the other journeyman middle relievers over the years.
And FYI…Marlins are doing fine in their rebuild. They are filling little holes while letting their young players have room to show what they can do. I would think a fan of a last place team wouldn’t be taking a shot at the team that actually made the playoffs (and advanced).
First Mets fans would not be calling him a stud basically because no one knows who the hell he is. And I hope you really aren’t hanging your hat on last years 1/4 of a season. Besides the Marlins wont place better than the Mets this year.
Anthony Bass – 3.44 ERA, 3.63 FIP, 127 ERA+, 7.9 K/9, 57% GB over the last 3 seasons. A very serviceable reliever and he is guaranteed just $5 million over 2 years.
That was a very smart move by the Marlins.
Which Mets middle reliever has done as well or been as consistent as Bass over the past 3 seasons? Trevor May maybe? What did the Mets pay for him, 2/$15.5 million? Lugo? What is he making in 2021, $3 million?
Funny how the fish make their biggest acquisition of the year and the one guy that accounts for 50% of their fan base can’t be bothered to comment about it, rather he spends his time complaining about how prospects for another team were hyped years ago.
making room for bauer?
I’d say so, there offer is 4/120 million dollar range with an opt out after 1 year
Not likely. The Mets took Matz off the 40-man but two of the Jays they are getting back need to be put on it.
40 man roster spots never stand in the way of acquiring a top 30ish pitcher in all of baseball
Looks like the Mets got Bauer
Degrom-Carrasco-Stroman-Peterson-Lucchesi with Thor coming soon and Lugo for spot starts, has nothing to do with Bauer really (altho he could still sign)
Thor is a free agent after this season. So he’s getting paid to rehab.
That’s a pretty week back end. They could still use another starter. I’m not saying it has to be Bauer but they need a starter.
Sure it does. You don’t trade Matz to make room for Lucchesi.
Considering that Lucchesi is as good if not better than Matz and has more control, then yes, you do. No reason to hold both of them. Matz will spend half the season on the DL, anyway.
Matz is inconsistent. Lucchesi is no better. It’s not a testament to Matz to say that you don’t trade him to make room for a Lucchesi. Lucchesi is a 6th or 7th starter and lefty out of the pen. I think Bauer is headed to the Mets.
But *Matz* is a 6th or 7th starter. You can move him to make room for Lucchesi because Lucchesi is cheaper. No reason to have both. Move the more expensive option.
Bauer and Cole in the same city. Ah, the subway series would be something.
It would still be Degrom facing Cole, Bauer could even be behind Carrasco.
Was hoping the Rays got their hands on him, but the Jays are in on everyone.
Jacob I’m curious why u were hoping for that. Are u seeing something that I’m not? He looks pretty meh….even if healthy
I just thought being a 2-3 IP LH would help him be more effective, and the Rays are pretty darn good at getting the most juice they can outta someone… I guess I never looked hard at his advanced stats for any justification, but I always liked him and thought if he could stay healthy, in a limited roll, his career might rebound.
5 plus million is pricey for the rays. They’ve certainly got better in their farm who make the league minimum.
Perhaps the Rays could use a coupon to save some money. Do the Mets accept coupons from competitors like Bed Bath and Beyond? It would also help if Matz agreed to work in ticket sales, food vending and grounds crew. Wait, there are no fans even outside the pandemic at Tropicana. Perhaps he can ride a stationary bicycle that powers the lights on?
Hard to say he’s much of an upgrade at this point. Hopefully they aren’t giving up great assets for him.
JD
I agree, making 5.2m this is a head scratcher. We have so many internal options just as good or better .
I don’t mind them taking a shot on a high upside arm like Matz or Ray or Stripling. But i don’t think you can build a whole rotation around them, because there’s a very real chance all could blow up. At least they didn’t give up much here.
I have a sneaking suspicion they aren’t going to be using a traditional rotation this year. It looks like to me they have about 5 or 6 piggy back guys to work with to get it to the backend of the bullpen.
I agree it is starting to look that way. I wish they had kept SRF and given him a longer look out of the pen but I guess they figured they have a backlog of guys in AAA.
I fully expect them to still add one more high upside arm, Likely Paxton or Odorizzi. I also have no issue with them bringing in guys like Matz and Ray. There should only be hopefully 2 rotation spots to fill, preferably 1 but lets not get greedy. That leaves Ray, Roark, Matz, Stripling, Borucki, Thornton, Kay, Hatch and Merryweather to compete for 2 rotation spots. It makes the bullpen stronger and adds depth, allowing some guys to start in the minors..
Not a huge upside move, but it does raise the floor of the rotation slash bullpen
I think SRF has been at 6 BB/9 or more for a few years. Which is a little too wild and both Diaz and SRF are both AA guys so very little loyalty will be shown. This also opens up a spot on the 40 man roster which is needed.
IMHO Sean Reid-Foley is better and cheaper.
I’ve been patiently waiting for SRF to get a decent look, whether it was bullpen or rotation.
Yes me too- especially out of the pen.
SRF can’t throw strikes consistently and no one in the Jays has been able to mentor him to do that. Change of scenery time.
Matz at least has shown he can pitch effectively for a whole season. SRF has never shown that he has what it takes to make the step. Not that this trade makes much difference for either team, but Matz is the guy I’d rather count on for 20 starts.
And also Reid Foley has more upside.
SRF might be better, might not. But I wouldn’t have given up on Winckowski. Especially for Matz.
Reid-Foley can’t throw a strike to save his life, and showed no hint of progress in that regard. He can’t start in the era of pitch counts because he’s at 100 pitches after 3 innings, and a reliever who can’t throw strikes is useless too, so his only future with the Jays was to get claimed on waivers when they send him down (I believe he’s out of options).
Winckowski is the only real value the Mets got.
Along those lines, many felt the Mets were about to DFA Matz if they couldn’t trade him to get rid of the salary. Terrible trade.
I didn’t see much of him in 2020. Was average in 2019. 2018 he looked like he put things together.
Hopefully he can bounce back. The talent is definitely there but the results are dreadful.
SRF is almost assuredly a reliever at this point. No shame in that. He could become a weapon with time. Good grab for the Mets. Matz was redundant and the most expensive of the group.
Matz is better than Roark, and they didn’t give up anybody important. Hopefully he’s just depth and they’ll get a better starter too.
An indicator of Bauer signing with Mets?
To me this means they’re acquiring another starter pitcher. Perhaps Bauer. This season pitching depth is key. I don’t see them trading Matz unless there’s another starter coming.
The fact the Mets got more than a bag of baseballs for Matz is a miracle.
@JOHNSmith True.
Sad actually Smith. Wanna get rid of a pitcher with little or no talent? Call Ross Atkins.
Just look at Ray, Stripling, Roark, …..
How did you get so dumb? You’re literally the guy people screenshot and laugh at because you’re so blind you can’t see what’s right in front of your eyes. Is Matz changing the outlook of the team? Of course not. Did we lose anything? Nope. This deal is pretty vanilla. Nothing to hate about it, nothing to love either. It’s a small depth move and free up a spot for the Semien deal to finalize
At his salary and the prospect return I can see them trading him. They may land Bauer but even if they don’t there are other starters who could be as good or better for same price or cheaper.
Agree Von. As a Met fan I’d rather see them save some of that Bauer money and sign a back end guy like Taijuan Walker.
Bauer time
I was hoping matz was non tendered so getting prospects for him is amazing. Well done sandy when you have a real owner you’re quite the man
They got a top 30 prospect out of Toronto. Wow
Two top 30 prospects as per MLB.com. Plus Reid-Foley.
I was shocked they got one and as the names trickled out they did really well. Reid-Foley has some upside.
These are not real prospects
They got 2 pitching prospects and a change of scenery candidate for a guy they’d probably DFA coming off a horrendous showing in 2020.
Considering everything the Mets did pretty well to get something for nothing.
Matz was considered the 2nd best pitching prospect in MLB in 2015, why isn’t he a “change of scenery candidate”?? Both teams got nothing for nothing, who really cares
No these are just warm bodies. Mets needed some warm ones for depth as they are trying to restructure money to keep from hitting the tax threshold. The Jays had extra warm bodies as they keep signing new ones to deals, and probably plan to add another one or two while getting a pitcher that interests them.
SRF is a warm body. Diaz is a semi-prospect. Winckowski is a prospect.
Hello Bauer? Yikes
Eh, why? Jays need a number 2 type…
He could be a number 2. Or a number 7. Tune in to see.
Matz is a #47 type.
Need to have that depth, Jimmer.
If I have heard of any of the prospects (as a Jays fan) this is a horrible trade. Actually even just using giving him a roster spot is too much.
i think u might have heard of Reid-Foley and Díaz
When I heard prospect, I was expecting a prospect. Still SRF is already better than Matz if you use him as a reliever so we will slot this trade next to the Derek Fisher one in the “but why?’ file.
No this has a good chance of stinking but will not come close to the smell on the Fisher trade. That was never worth a chance, whereas this one has a chance of success.
I don’t think Fisher is going anywhere. Jays see a future star in Fisher.
he’s not still on the 40-man is he?
He is still on the 40, neo.
Well Reid Foley and Diaz I’ve heard of
Gamestonk payroll cuts.
This is a bit of a head scratcher. I like the Semien deal, but this doesn’t make a ton of sense. I guess it’s solid depth but do we have room for him with Ryu, Pearson, Roark, Ray and Stripling?
Stripling will be the odd man out he pitched a 4 era last year! Matz is a good pitcher
Stripling > Matz
Stripling > Pearson
Very reasonable to say Stripling is better than Matz. I agree. But to say he’s better than Pearson is writing off a guy who was one of the top three SP prospects in all of baseball a year ago and is still very highly regarded despite a bad 2020 debut when he was dealing with injury and the weird season.
I did put 2020 altogether unless it is a continuation of a trending seasons for the obvious reason; so, outside 2020, I’m not sure anyone can say that about Pearson. He’s going to be a good pitcher imho, and much better than Matz and Stripling, unless injuries persist.
I hate to even think this, but Alex Reyes was a top prospect for 4 seasons straight. Honeywell should be dominating now too. Nothing guaranteed with starting pitching prospects. Wishing nothing but the best for Nate, but to bank on injuries not persisting is pretty bold.
If by “good” you mean bum then you’re absolutely right! You are now free to move about the cabin. Ahahahaha!
(?)
Jays likely going 6 man
He will pitch out of the pen and the odd start
Especially in 2021 with everybody coming off super short seasons, you need 10 starting pitchers.
Matz is a reliever at this point, right?
I was thinking the same thing. But a 5+million for a mediocre reliever? Even given that he’s a lefty.
I would be very surprised if they allow Pearson to pitch over 140-150 innings this year. He still needs to be built up. Perhaps Matz is just extra insurance on Pearson, Stripling & Ray
I’m just surprised SRF was included.
As for the other two. One did decent in AA & the other pitched 0.2 innings with Toronto and got lit up.
Just today during the introduction of Springer, Atkins was asked by Dividi why to this point in the offseason had they Jays only been able to sign guys in the FA and not trade.
Atkins reply was that coming from the developer side of baseball while with Cleveland he grew to value the development of players and seeing them all the way to the majors. It was like he was alluding to teams asking for more than what the Jays were willing to give up in trade talks. Like he was over valuing certain players in the farm.
Then 10 hours later this head scratcher happens.
Maybe Ryan Borucki or Trent Thornton is on the way out as part of a package to get a top of the rotation arm and Matz is coming back this way…
I really cannot make sense of this one.
Atkins is fired by mid season 2021.
There’s no way that’s happening.
Had to clear another 40man roster spot to make room for Semien.
Some added part of the cost to sign Semien to keep in mind.
Reid-Foley or Diaz were probably shopped around for PTBNL/cash considerations similar to the Perez trade with the Reds last week.
Blossomed into this little stinker.
How many of these 4 players are still with the same team in 6 months?
Upside all around but major wild cards.
One of these chips could pay out.
Fisher’s willingness to injure himself hilariously to cheer up his fellow teammates and ability to draw walks from the left handed batter’s box buy him another day?
He may still get to continue his vendetta against the Alford family by winning the 5th OF spot and keeping Jonathan Davis in the minors again.
SRF wasn’t given a real shot in 2020, so moving on from him is not surprising. Same with Diaz.
The only sense this makes is the Jays need guys who can go long in games. I suspect they will have games 1-2 times a week were one guy goes 3 innings, next guy goes 3 innings. Think Game 1 against the Rays with Shoemaker.
Literally every starting pitcher in MLB shouldn’t be allowed 150 IP this year according to the theory of slowly building innings.
Bullcrap.
If anything, NOT having a full 2020 season should be a benefit to the starting pitchers because of a scaled back season last year.
If no pitcher should throw 150 innings then they do not deserve to earn the money they are making. This is professional baseball. No pitcher ought to be held back because of a shortened season a year ago. Only if they are returning from injury should they be limited.
Angels lose out again
They have to be confident that they’ll sign Bauer, unless the trade is contingent on them signing Bauer first.
They can’t replace matz for 4 to 8 million? Or with the prospect return they received.
As a Phillies fan, I’ll certainly miss Matz pitching in Citizen’s Bank Park.
If you didn’t get there until the second inning, you missed him.
LOL! So true.
MetsFan22, I have seen lots of bad starts in 50-plus years of watching baseball but that was one for the ages. Worse, there have been times when he’d be cruising and come unglued by one bad break. A talented arm only gets you so far. He seems to overthink everything.
Sounds like Josh Towers 10 or so years ago.
He had the most wins for the Jays one year, like 17 or something. Not great stuff, but could locate.
The following year he fell off a cliff. Went 1w-9L before the Jays sent him down. He never regained any confidence after that.
Josh Towers had plenty of confidence, he just didn’t have any pitches good enough to survive without Maddux-like control. Making it to the majors with Towers’ mid-80s fastball and pedestrian secondary offerings was amazing, and for a year he managed that perfect control to go 13-12. Matz is the polar opposite of Towers, he’s a guy who has good stuff but underperforms with it.
If we are talking purely control.
Towers had a 1.51 BB/9 career with 731 Innings total
And Matz a 2.79 BB/9 Total innings pitched 579
The league average BB9 for 2020 was 3.5
Back in 2006 during Towers time it was 3.1
Both players below the league average.
Towers had a whole 1.28 fewer walk/9 career than Matz.
I agree Matz stuff plays better than Towers.
Towers had one good season. The league adjusted to him and absolutely Annihilated him the following two years. He was never the same. Letting a kid go 1-9 before sending him down was mismanagement.
I stand by my original post that Towers Confidence not his control was lost.
Here hoping Walker can right Matzs’ ship.
& since you brought Maddux into the conversation, his career BB9 over 23 years was 1.8
That’s spot on. He would drive you crazy like that. He is a bit of a head case…not in the jerk way… he’s a good dude, just would fall apart seemingly every game.
HAAAAAA. Funny SH** right there.
Yennsy, Reid-Foley & another seems like a bit too much
Mets did well. I thought Winckowski was the headliner.
same, Mets pulled this off excellently
He probably is
I was thinking the exact same
Agree. I figured one of these guys. Maybe 2 max. 3 is over pay. They couldn’t find someone they liked to sign in that price range? Matz has upside but a lot of uncertainty.
I’m still confused. I totally get what the Mets got. I wonder what the hell Toronto was thinking. These three for Matz? Where’s the advantage? It’s like a move you see if they need to clear 40-man space without losing much on the RP, buuuuuut, without all the extra logic.
So the Blue Jays are picking up another bullpen arm that can also start (like Chatwood, Stripling, Borucki, Thornton, Hatch, Kay…) Could this be a sign that they plan do go with a lot of openers this year? Or short 4 inning starts?
That’s what I’m thinking as well. Hoping to get close to 200 traditional innings out of some combination of Roark, Ray, Matz, or really any of our non-Ryu options, doesn’t sound realistic.
Interesting thought. Everyone is talking about how a short 2020 will limit IP for starters over the full 2021 season.
This will net them 2 40 man spots 1 for Metz and one for Semiens
Have no idea why they are clinging to Fisher.
This is an overpay for Matz
Came here to make the exact same point LOL
“he struggles in the NLE, maybe he will fair better in the ALE.”
Very surprised. I’d have thought PTBN would have been enough.
Mets need a CF Yankees could of done Tauchman for Matz.
Why would the Mets want Tauchman? Why would the Yankees want Matz?
NO
Is this a poor attempt at trolling?
Bauer is probably down to 2-3 teams in NYM, Anaheim & Toronto (maybe SF too) so he should be signing really soon. Not sure if moving Matz is a precursor to a Bauer signing or not but it certainly makes some sense. Since Toronto is sending 3 prospects in return, I wonder if the Mets are sending some cash to Toronto as part of the deal or maybe they are adding in a prospect as part of the deal instead. Matz is almost a candidate to be given away for free so I wouldn’t be surprised if the Mets have to pay a little extra to get him off the roster.
3 weeks til pitchers and catchers *hopefully* get to report! He really should sign soon.
I guess it is quantity over quality starters for TO—- again. Like FFS Shatkins
Yep. I’ll try to be glass half full on this.
Jays are making roster space for another rotation arm they are about to acquire. Or they are dealing an OF for two plays on another team’s 40-man. Winckowski was not on the 40-man but SRF and Diaz were. That’s the best explanation I have, other than that Matz will be some form of innings eater or bullpen help.
This move freed up 2 spots. One for Matz and one for Semiens , now back to 40.
Nice try though.
So the Jays aren’t making a trade with one of their OFs? Do you have a crystal ball or just using crystal meth? Think deeper, try harder.
Once again reading comprehension.
Did not say that- I said there is no open spot so it is not valid that they are making roster space for a 1 for 2 trade as you suggested.
They still might. They probably won’t. We disagree over Matz and you are a big fan of the move, and we disagree on Fisher as you believe he should start for the Jays. I get it, you’re just brilliant. Can’t drop Fisher or make any more trades over the next week or two. You are right.
Yikes not too sure about the cost in this one.
Not to sure about the dude (Matz) in this one.
I don’t understand why the Blue Jays do this deal.
Matz is useful depth, but isn’t great. There are other useful depth pieces that could be had for $5.2M or less, and they wouldn’t have to give up any prospects for that.
The deal is done because of the need for 40-man space, presumably
Where/why did they need it cleared? I don’t see it, but I could be missing it too… this was my first thought but I don’t see it, unless they make a move shortly that’s currently in the works, which is entirely possible.
Semien needed a spot! There’s a bigger why to that but it’s been discussed in a different thread plenty.
There’s an obvious, can’t catch a can-o-corn way to clear that spot instead, but no real heartbreaker loss while we wait to see who else will push out the fringe guys.
Not saying a lot for the rest of the rotation depth, but Matz could end up as the #2, eek. Find the 2018 form? Not as eek. Similar to Ray and Roark. One has to be able to find prior form?
Another potential bullpen arm. Could see Ray and/or Matz thriving late career as lefty relievers. Maybe starting 2021. Pomeranz-esque?
Gonna be some fun spring battles.
Take Fisher’s spot.
Our crankier fans would complain even more about the lack of lefthanded bats though.
Fisher is a cornerstone. No. The cornerstone.
Looking around the MLB, specifically the AL, there isn’t a lot of star lefty bats. Gotta keep Fisher/McGuire around barring a trade resulting in better lefty option entering the picture.
That same lack of LH bats around the AL makes Ray and Matz especially scary thoughts. But getting to face some teams outside the division and using the depth to shorten these appearances should be able to optimize things a bit.
DiDi would’ve been a nice lefty bat. Over Semien.
Kolten Wong also.
I want Reese to be the backup. He’s a solid defender.
I don’t think Fisher being lefty matters when he’s not good enough to start, or play for that matter. I think if a lefty bat mattered that much to the Jays they would have looked at JBJ and the others I mentioned. Jays brass believes in Fisher’s talent, and his head is holding himself back.
Matz in the AL East you say? HAHAHAHA
He might still come, but this has nothing to to with Bauer. The Mets rotation is Degrom-Carrasco-Stroman-Peterson-Lucceshi with Thor on the way and Lugo around to sub in. Matz had no place to play unless they switched him to a RP.
Marty, Lugo gets nowhere near the rotation!! way too important in our bullpen….i would say Bauer is coming to the Mets
Mets are shedding money and plyer to get Bryant and Hendricks.
This all points in the direction of a Bauer signing, but does it really? Matz has been a player that has needed to be moved to the pen for years now, and with the addition of Lucchesi, that was likely his destination. This is the same player that has had trade rumors floating around him for a while now, most recently in early March when he was in speculated trade talks with the NYY: risingapple.com/2020/03/03/mets-trade-rumors-steve…
So what makes this an indication of a Bauer signing? Are we assuming that Lucchesi becomes a LR arm? Because if so, they are going to have to convert a player – who’s been a starter for his whole career – into a reliever.
All I’m saying is that even though it may look like that’s where it’s trending, pump the breaks on it a minute Mets’ fans because this may just be a convenient trade that netted them some good prospects…
…Though all hope is not lost as this move brings 5.2 mil off the payroll. Take what you want from it, but I’d have careful optimism.
I think the basic argument is that the Mets are worried about the luxury tax and want to clear up a bit more space to make a competitive offer to Bauer. But I agree that it’s certainly not the only possibility on the table.
As for Lucchesi, I think part of the reason they acquired him is that he has two option years left, so they have some flexibility with him.
Kirk Nieuwenhuis for MVP,
Who can forget your memorable career especially that 3 HR game the Sunday prior to the ASB in 2015. I was in Fenway Park watching Yankees-Red Sox having bumped into David Cone on what was formerly known as Yawkey Way.
Good analysis you are of course right.
@kirk for MVP
The Mets have made a competitive offer to Bauer. I’ve not heard that any other team has. This is another JTR situation. Only one bidder. In this case, I could see that one bidder going another direction, and leaving him in the cold. Every arm that Toronto acquires is one more indication they are looking elsewhere. I have not seen any indication that LAA intends to exceed the CBT, and the LAD aren’t paying that price for a luxury they have no need of. Rest assured, the Mets offer is already competitive.
Those are a lot of words to not say very much. Yes, they cleared some payroll and got decent arms back, that’s all.
Hmm…not sure how I feel about this. The return is fair, but I feel the Jays should have aimed higher. Loved the signings of Springer, Semien and Yates. This one…ehh.
Perfect
Matz pitching in the American League East
What can go wrong with that?
The Jays have one #1 starter then 3 #5 and what ever Pearson is
Apparently the Jays have always liked Matz.. all the pitchers the Mets are acquiring seem like cheap controllable depth pitching. Mets save $5.2M to put towards a Bauer contract..
This might be the worst trade yet for Shatkins. Literally 0-5 with a high 9.00 era last year. We don’t need another #5 starter like get it together already.
Come on, worse than the Fisher trade? Be serious. (I agree this doesnt look good)
Jays need to dump a lot of useless bodies eventually. Fisher being one of them. Unless we stock pile AAA players
I’m hoping one day I get to see the incriminating photos Fisher has of whichever Jays exec is anchoring his spot on the team.
I’m a Jays fan and I imagine they contend this year with the lineup they have but I’m scratching my head with the starters. I’ve kinda grown to like the Shapiro process but if they don’t have anything in mind for starters (even as far away as next offseason) I don’t get it.
Jays fan here…
What a horrific trade. I was hoping for quality pitching and we get a one-year lotto ticket for three pitchers with actual potential.
Goodness Tigers, if Mets are getting this type of return for Matz.. Why not appraise a trade consisting of Boyd and/or Norris?
LR like Norris fetch more at the deadline. Boyd is at his lowest value. And none of what the Mets received moved the needle for me. I like Toronto’s end of the deal. Matz still throws 95. Of course the Tigers appraised what they could bring back, due diligence. That they are still here…
There’s also the fact that someone needs to pitch for them this year. Manning’s not up yet. Skubal and Mize struggled in their first taste of the majors (not unexpected). You can’t have your BP throw 5-6 innings every game. Somebody has to be on the mound. And sure, they could trade someone and sign his replacement, but other teams can do that as well and wouldn’t have to give up prospect capital.
Honestly, I think the Tigers should look into Taijuan Walker. He’s still young, could probably be had for cheap, and if they got him on a 1-yr deal with a 2nd-yr option, he could become attractive trade bait at the deadline for a team dealing with injuries or underperformance.
Not a fan of this trade. Really hope this isn’t Toronto’s plan to upgrade our starting pitching. I like Reid-Foley always have, Diaz could be a decent pen arm. I see Matz getting mashed in the AL East next season.
It’s a shock to my system to see the Mets with actual minor league pitching depth.
Ryu at the top, followed by some combination of Matz, Pearson, Roark, Ray, Stripling, and Thornton. That seems like a thin rotation despite plenty of options. Lots of pressure on Pearson to be solid as a rookie. The other five have all struggled with consistency, to put it mildly. This can’t be what Jays fans hoped for when the winter started. Is there someone I’m missing?
No Cey, you are not missing anything. Shapiro and Atkins don’t have a clue.
Some land mines among those names. It’s imperative they get a top of the rotation guy to pair with Ryu while he’s still a top pitcher.
I love when they do a good signing or trade you disappear but the second Shatkins does something remotely bad you just attack them. Jimmer you are a terrible Jays fan, please go be the Yankee fan you always wanted to be
Franz, I question if you can read.
I liked the Springer deal and said so. I liked Chatwood deal to be reliever and said so, I liked the Richard Urena signing and said so, I liked the Ryu signing and said so, I liked the Hernandez trade for his bat not his defence and said so….I could go on and on.
The trouble is that most of the Shatkins deals are bad at the MLB level.
Did you just talk about reading and said my handle wrong? I don’t pay attention to the stuff you post, what I happen to be seems to be all negative. As I said, if you want a team that spends big, go be a Yankees fan
So you like all those signings by Atkins and Shapiro while also saying they have no clue what their doing?
It’s ok to not like a signing without throwing shade. Just a thought
Franx and Rowdy’s, please tell us all the positives of having Steven Matz on a team needing starting pitching looking to contend in the AL East. Enlighten us with something we are missing. Because if the Jays are looking to knock off the Yankees, Red Sox or Rays, Matz isn’t cutting it.
and you have any clue. Good god would you just go away. You already said Bo was a bust because he has a weak core and weak wrists. You are plain and simple an idiot and a laughing stock on this board and several others.
#Blindeyes
It’s you that doesn’t have a clue Jimmertree. #scoutseyes lmfao
Not sure why anyone would want Matz since he’s always injured
Factually incorrect, he made 30 starts in 2018 and 2019. Only made a few of starts in 2020 due to being ineffective.
Huh. So Jays maybe think Matz can be fixed? Those small-sample size 2020 numbers were brutal.
This is mind boggling from a Jays perspective. Can’t believe they gave those prospects for a guy who had a 9.68 ERA before moving to the AL east. I know not to judge by ERA but when it is over 9 it becomes the pitchers fault and not what is around him.
It was 30 innings in a shorted season. He was injured and didn’t get a full spring. That ETA means nothing.
Cool. Looking forward to Roark’s bounce back 2021 season.
Guess what boys??? Angels are out on Bauer: latimes.com/sports/angels/story/2021-01-27/angels-…
Blue Jays, Mets, Dodgers? Mets’ fans should feel really good right now.
As a Dodger fan, I am hoping Friedman passes on Bauer. Starting pitching is not close to an area of need. Buehler, Kershaw, Price, Urias, May, and Gonsolin figures to be an elite bunch of starters. Maybe even THE elite bunch. Four of those six are really just getting started. Plus, Bauer the person might not fit. I would seriously consider sitting out the season if they signed him. Let the Mets have him and deal with his nonsense.
“I would seriously consider sitting out the season if they signed him.” No you wouldn’t lmao.
I would be thrilled if I had a team that not only produced MLB aces, but also signed them just for the fun of it. He’s not as toxic as people make him out to be; he’s just an acquired taste lol.
I agree that the Dodgers don’t need him anyhow. They should be looking to sure up the last bit of their pen and re-sign JT, but besides that they are only getting better with time. Such a well ran organization. I envy.
I’m okay with letting Turner go and making do for a year. However, it would surprise me if Friedman has a big trade coming. Not Arenado or Bryant but Ramirez. For what Cleveland is trying to do, the Dodgers are a perfect trade partner for them.
I agree wholeheartedly. The *Indians* aren’t a good team anymore, and I actually see them following the model of the current day Rangers a lot. Stacking up on 23-26 year old MLB ready players preparing to be competitive in 2022′ or 2023′. A true retool, and I think the Dodgers have a plethora off assets that the tribe could use in their endeavors. The likes of Gonsolin and Ruiz come into my mind instantly. And Ramirez would look really good in Dodger blue; for about the same price as re-signing JT as well.
Re Gonsolin and Ruiz: I would hate to part with either but gotta give to get. Cleveland would need something else so maybe 3B prospect Hoese? Ruiz and Gonsolin are ready, Hoese by 2022. A basic framework, anyway.
I don’t want the Dodgers to send Cleveland any young pitching, I’m sick of the Twins facing the collection they send out the last few years as it is.
3B is actually not an area of need for them because trading Ramirez allows them to move around Cesar, Amed, and Gimenez to their preferred position whether that be SS, 3B, or 2B. Then they also have Nolan Jones coming up soon who is a top 100 prospect, and he plays 3B. Very little need there.
How about this:
Indians get: Gonsolin, Ruiz, and Luis Gonzalez (no, not that Luis Gonzalez)
Dodgers get: Jose Ramirez
I think both sides would be happy with that, and if either was to complain, I think it’d be the Indians wanting a little more.
Luiz Gonazlez would be tough to give up. Funny…I have scolded Dodger fans elsewhere for putting Ruiz and Gonsolin in countless trade proposals, but this is one of two instances where I would do it. The other would be to Cincinnati for Castillo, though they have less of a need for Ruiz because of Stephenson. I also think the Reds would be nuts to trade Castillo because they can win that woeful division. Ramirez would balance the lineup. A question is what the Dodgers do about SS after ’21. I love Seager’s bat way more than his glove. I can see trading for Ramirez and then pivoting to Lindor at SS next winter. I trust Friedman to make good moves. I love his payroll management, which matters when assembling a team. Small-market principles, big-market budget. All supported by tremendous scouting, drafting, and player development.
The Dodgers are the best ran organization in baseball by far. I too trust them to make the right moves, but I bet by 21′, Lindor won’t be a free agent. Just sayin’.
I like hearing the Rangers’ name getting thrown around the free agent SS market next winter, and one of my favorite players I’m hoping we add is Seager. Great player even when the times are tough.
Btw, here’s a relatively small prediction though I think it happens: The Dodgers will get Grayson Greiner. I was talking about him the other day with some Tigers’ fans, and since they signed Ramos, he’ll *probably* be DFA’d. I went on a deep dive through his stats, and it looks like he has severe Commerica Park disease and overall unluckiness. Once DFA’d, I think the Dodgers will pick him up and use him as catching depth. I seriously think that the Dodgers could revive his career like they’ve done for so many others.
Think you guys are low on the Ramírez price –
It would probably be Lux Ruiz + another good prospect of their choosing-
I also think Rosario will be traded in the next 3 weeks as well
A future with Nolan -Gimenez- Lux- Ruiz in the inf , all in the same time arc might look appeasing to Cle- I think Cle waits till the break to make that call at minimum tho- They line up well but so does ATL with a Waters-Riley-C-Sp package
As a Dodger fan I was glad to dodge the Seiman bullet and am ok if JT gets payed more somewhere else – I think we can tread water internally till the break if need be- Todd Frazier wouldnt be bad on like a 1.5/1 yr deal as insurance as well
Re possibly trading Ruiz and Lux: Within the organization, the Dodgers have already lined up C and middle infield as areas of strength, along with starting pitching. Also, the time arc of that Cleveland infield would be in line with their pitching.
Frazier works as a platoon bat with Rios. That gets the Dodgers to next winter when they can re-evaluate what they have on the infield. Looking at the Dodgers’ lack of offseason moves, one thing to keep in mind is that they have quite a few young players who will keep improving. So, they don’t necessarily have to go outside the organization to get better. They can also afford to wait until the trade deadline to make acquisitions, as you noted. One thing I love about Friedman is his patience. He doesn’t make panic moves, unlike what some of these teams might be doing now to fill out their rosters.
It would take a lot more than that…..
@cey hey
The Problem is that the players you want from Cleveland are central to what Cleveland is trying to do. They are young and controlled. Cleveland still sees itself as a team that is trying to win. Think of reasons the LAD would trade Belinger, for prospects, if they had him signed to a team friendly deal. You are correct. There really aren’t any.
@stymeedone, Huge difference there. Dodgers are the best team in baseball; Indians are the third-best team in their division. They may still be trying to win, but they simply don’t have the offense to compete. In some ways, they’re like the White Sox were just over 4 years ago: some very talented players on team-friendly deals, but not a realistic shot at a title. Cleveland, unlike Chicago from back then, has at least a shot at making the playoffs, especially in an expanded format, but they’re not true contenders. They could build around that rotation, but choose not to. Last year’s poor offense got much worse from losing Lindor and Santana. They’re not going anywhere right now.
Were they to switch gears, they could keep Bieber and still bring back a massive haul by trading J-Ram and a couple other young pitchers.
The Dodgers, on the other hand, are contenders either way, but Bellinger is MLB-tested and they can realistically win now.
I love the patience as well- Many forget the Dodgers were a terrible organization in the 90’s and early 2000’s –
From strawberry/davis to dreifort/KBrown to the Crawford/Beckkett/Agon trade the Dodgers were just throwing a penny in a wishing bell and praying w prior Fo’s
We are lucky the scouting/player devel arms have always been the best in the Biz even thru all that garbage
Im TOTALLY a fan of staying internal till the break. They have the reserve tank full if they need to spring a trade come summer- I love Turner but I love the Dodgers more….I almost think the right move is to move on today unless the market really caves to like a 2/25 w an extra 3 mill buyout in 23 …. that might be below market but thats the most Id give regrettably.
Im also in the camp for getting Smith some 3b reps and holding 3 C on the roster (Ruiz extra) I think Fried always wanted to go that route and get Barnes more 2b reps/ his bat just never really upheld the bargain in past years
** Also an add on to your patience point – Look at what it might be doing already …the 2 main competitors for Turner imo are Tor/ NYM……Toronto prolly already took heavy offers off table now (Seiman) and if NYM signs Bauer them as well
Most Dodger fans wanted Turner inked a month ago….by waiting it looks like his market is dwindling fast – Still see the Braves as a big threat here…Mil makes a ton of sense as well but I cant see any of those 2 going “crazy” big
This is a good thing for the Angels, Odorizzi and another solid RP, always made more sense with 25m left.
I like this for the Mets. 3 young controllable arms for a starter that didn’t appear to be in their plans.
Everybody likes this trade for the mets. 28 gms wish they had matz and space to make this trade.
This trade is embarrassing and makes no sense at all. Wasn’t Matz a non tender candidate?
Puke…Don’t help the Mets clear payroll for Bauer
Jay’s freeing up roster spots? Might explain.
I read they were kicking tires on Paxton.
Jays screwed the pooch on this one. I feel sorry for their fans. Things were looking up. They needed to go for Tanaka or Paxton. Not this. This is horrible.
This was dumb and pointless but lets wait until the season starts before we jump on this. Maybe they needed the roster spot for another pitcher to be signed. This deal opened up a 40 man spot, which so far is the only good thing about the trade.
It’s all related to the 40 man roster for the Jays. They’re basically replacing Reid-Foley and Diaz with Semien and Matz. I’ll take that upgrade for a year and go from there. The catching depth On the 40 man is the real head scratcher. Let’s move someone there and get some better pitching depth in return.
Mark Shapiro now starting to act like he did in Cleveland ….overpaying for free agents and making dumb trades
Groan. “overpaying for free agents and making dumb trades”
Turn him into a knuckleballer
The Jays got Matz? I’m shivering in my boots. Seriously though, this doesn’t move the needle in the East much if at all. I’m wondering why Toronto did this. From the Mets point of view I can see it, they have to be close to signing Bauer
Not really a deal for moving the needle. More like procedural moves to make room on the 40mans
So SRF has big time control issues but has some real stuff, he has some real setup/closer potential and is probably equal to chatwood right now, The rest are nothing of note IMO. I said on the Semien post last night expect a trade to free up 40 man space and this frees up 2 spaces as apposed to losing guys for nothing. That being said seem like kind of a over pay even tho i dont know much about matz, but going by you guys hes not great
I would not compare Reid-Foley to Chatwood. He has some gas but his fastball is as flat as a young school girl and his control of pitches would be similar to someone throwing darts blindfolded.
I didnt means stuff wise, more results wise. As in SRF gives about the same ERA as Chatwood, and i feel that being SRF floor more or less. SRF has a grwat Slider if im not mistaken. Maybe i should have explained better. I could be wrong tho aswell, never watched as many games as i should have this past year
Winck and Diaz both seem like decent prospects. Seems like too much to give up for Matz, but I’m not going to complain.
Basically its winchowski and reid-foley for matz. Jays hoping pete walker can get his game back. Reid-foley failed in his chances as a starter for the jays. Change of scenery might be good for foley and matz. Winchowski is the main piece for the mets. Young and decent potential. Diaz was likely the one to be on waivers when semien deal was announced
Of The Fab Five now only one and a half remain.
So they just cleared a 40man spot for Loup? Reid Foley could have some possible upside. So not the worst deal ever
SRF has 1 year to prove himself or else dfa time…
Actually they just lost 1x 40 spot- so now they will need to find 2. Diaz + SRF and Loup need to be put on the 40.
This is a move for the Mets to get TB… calling it now.
Looks like dozens have called it prior to you.
Good trade maybe Matz does better in the American League for a season. Congratulations to Mets on Landibg Trevor Bauer!!
Matz > Loup + SRF + the other 2 guys
All day.
Jays putting together a robust, complete squad with these moves giving up absolutely none of the near or distant future. Maybe they add a starter (hopefully) but if not then they are still a much better ball club than last year…when they did make the postseason.
You’re in the minority here… bold
I mean when he puts it like that I agree but they didnt NEED to sign Loup and SRF + the other 2 guys > Matz..
Coldbeer, give it a rest. Matz is terrible. DFA candidate.
Stripling is a one turn guy. Roark is finished as is Thornton, .Ray doesn’t know where the ball is going, Semien is a spare part, Guchi should be DFa’d with FIsher. Grichuk is overpaid baggage and will show himself with a full year schedule.
No the Jays are NOT putting together a robust complete squad.
Jimmy these are professional arms under team friendly deals and any contender needs 10-15 starters a year now.
And, they have not sacrificed a half ounce of the future. So you have no voice here.
Jays are the hottest up and coming team in Baseball. (Preller had a head start)
CHANGE MY MIND
Jays are collecting a ton of garbage
Coldbeer, the goal is to win a World Series now. Period. No long term competative crap. Don’t drink that koolaid.
Jays are winning nothing with this rotation.
Hottest up and coming team in baseball is the San Diego Padres. Blue Jays are still battling for 3rd place as of today. Still time to change that.
jimmertee, I’m confused by their direction. A nice rebuild but they now seem to be going for it in the worst way possible. Paying $20 million to retain Ray and Roark made no sense. And now they relinquish three arms to pay $5 million to Matz. In my opinion, those moves cancel out the commitment made to Ryu and Springer, veterans you bring in to win now. Jeesh, they could have acquired some real pitching with that Ray, Roark, and Matz money.
Yes Cey, you are correct. Same story happened a lot in Cleveland. Shapiro can build a farm system and develop but many of his major league deals were awful. He was eventually removed from baseball decision making in Cleveland.
Cey Hey
They signed Roark last year so saying they retained his salary is misleading. Including last year he has a 3.83 career Era.
My take
1. This year was weak FA pitching class and everyone has a high degree of performance and/or injury risk. Next year for high end is looking much better .
2. With no clear dependable High End guys available (Bauer has a high performance variance risk) they spread the risk amongst guys like Metz/Ray/Stripling/Chatwood\Roark\Thornton et al .
3. They have some Prospects that are interesting and are potential breakout starters other then Pearson. Merryweather-Murphy to name 2.
3. With a shortened season last year you will see caution exercised with Pitcher’s Inning Limits. So a Bulk guy or Opener will be more prevalent.
4. With no Minors last year – the Jays are reluctant to give up any high end prospects – let them have 3 1/2 months development and re-evaluate at the trade deadline.
5. There will be alot more teams willing to trade pitching at the deadline then there are now. Supply ad Demand.
6. They went into last season with a rotation of Ryu-Pearson-Roark-Anderson-Thornton and they remained competitive too the deadline. They replaced guys like Drury-Shaw-Fisher with Springer and Semiens .
Other then possibly the White Sox no AL team has made any major improvements- many have regressed.
Ride into the trade deadline and then make a play for a TOR arm.
That being said- this trade is an overpay but it does also free up a 40 man spot for Semiens.
Rogers understands Shapiro and vice versa and unlike in Cleveland there is money to be spent in Toronto. They could spend Cole AAV money on Bauer…or go fill 3 major holes from last year. They’ve covered 2: both up the middle and now they have to spend extra to get the 3rd. They are still much better right now than 1 year ago.
Well put Marko.
A ton of pressure on Pearson if these are the rotation options. I think he will be good but not quite yet. If you’re going to sign Springer, you need to finish the job by delivering on the needed pitcher. Semien is another curious move. Good player but the $18 mil is too much. If you’re going to overpay, then do it by filling your biggest needs. Bauer wants a ton. but for the Jays, he’d be worth it. Certainly worth more than the $38 mil going to Ray, Roark, and Semien. The Jays are the one team that could have made a compelling one-year offer to Bauer. Say, $40-42 million and an opportunity to start more often and “build his brand.” If he left a year later, no real harm because the young players would all still be in place.
MarkoRock68, You make a bunch of excellent points. How teams divvy up their 1,460-plus innings is going to be interesting. Some of the more durable SPs in baseball are past age 30. These guys will no be asked to ramp back up to 180-plus innings after a season of throwing about 60 competitively. Pitching is about routine. Even for guys who are considered healthy, that will be a lot to ask. Btw, in 2020, just 40 MLB pitchers tossed the 60 innings necessary to qualify for the ERA title. Even with those guys, caution was exercised.
Cey Hey
Good point but Roark 12 million this year was already locked in and trading him was a no go .Lets hope he bounces back as a solid #4 .
I dont think this year was the year to pay 40/42 million for a guy like Bauer. That is the cherry on top and final piece to a WS run . They need to establish internally or find solid #3 and #4 starters before making that move. That is why I really feel the trade deadline will be very interesting for the Jays.
ColdBeer
Thank you 🙂
I have been pondering something and I wonder what your take is.
They have been holding onto Fischer and that roster spot all off season. Now that we have another potentially potent bat in Semiens.
I wonder if they are working a trade of Teoscar for a pitcher or at least keeping that option open until after ST.
Nice to see a Jays fan who gets it. The Matz trade was simply clearing room on the 40 man. The Jays have improved greatly and fangraphs now has them projected as the 2nd best team in the AL.
Much better than last year, but hardly because Matz.
A few other moves help.
Pitching depth is slight better than this time last year?
Was Shoemaker any less of a question mark than the current options? Anderson, Thornton, Kay?
Good points Filthy. And if Ryu takes a slight step back (which means he’s still very good), who’s stepping up? Question marks on the mound. There has to be another move or two coming.
If it’s Cy candidate Ryu, I’m still asking about who steps up.
Astros have developed 2 nice arms into their rotation past 2 years, guys that moved ahead of the top pedigreed prospect.
Rays could develop a few this year, or a few could flop. McKay, Honeywell, McClanahan? Fleming? Patino? No guarantees but a whole lot of exciting promise there.
Jays need to speed up the internal development train way more than anything. Captain obvious told me that. I think he tells fans of every team a similar message though.
My crystal ball can’t tell which arms step up for the Jays, but it does show me a blur that seems as if 2 of the young arms step up this year.
Kind of looks like Merryweather and Borucki but it might actually be Kay and Pearson.
Strong chance that my crystal ball is actually a hamster ball.
I still lean toward wanting to see how the less experienced perform in spring and first 6 weeks before trade push, but wouldn’t hate seeing a splash now.
The potential to find the value at ML minimum cost seems worth a try. Bauer with the pick/pool money/lack of games against PIT doesn’t seem worth it. Tanaka gone 🙁
Walker could work but pickens gettin slim now so the rest probably sign for more money than we expect they’re worth.
Wait for an NL East to fall out of it and get their SP. Or AL Central. CLE still has the arms to take the division. I think 2 of Scherzer, Nola, Syndergaard, Maeda, Plesac could be among midseason options that are no worse than a Hendricks or Castillo move would be for the cost.
Heard Angels out on Bauer congratulations Mets on landing him!!!
The Blue Jays will take anything that isn’t nailed down…
Good luck to you Steven . A change of scenery is probably what you needed.
Matz likely will be a lefty out of the pen. The trade also frees up spots on the 40-man roster for Simien and now Matz. The Jays didn’t give up any highly-rated prospects, but they could be serviceable down the road. The Mets, meanwhile, got some upside for a guy that had no clear role on the team.
I said we need to trade Rosario, Matz, Nimmo, Gsellman. Two down, two to go. SIGN BAUER; SIGN OR TRADE FOR AN OF!
This ones a head scratcher. There are few pitchers in the league that make the Jays staff worse, Matz is definitely one of them. Don’t get this at all.
Package Nimmo, Gsellman, Davis, prospect P NOT named Matthew Allan, $ to Cincy for SP Luis Castillo & 3B Eugenio Suarez.
The Reds are not trading one of Castillo or Suarez for a package with only 1 prospect, let alone both of them. Maybe that would fly for Suarez if the Mets take on the Moose or Castellanos contracts
Gotta love homer fans. They bash players they don’t like, then suggest trading those same players for all-stars. It’s as if they think opposing GMs want to go out of their way to help them out.
I think that trade is bad but at least Nimmo has a lot of value.
That might be the major problem with the trade. It’s obviously unbalanced in favor of the NYMs, but the best player on the NYMs side is a FA in two years. That’s useless if the Reds are rebuilding.
And so that leave’s place at the table for Bauer.
Blue Jays have the best collection of 5th starters in baseball!
Jays should hire you manrock as a scout.
I really don’t get this trade… could’ve gotten a controllable No 3 or 4 starter at the price they paid for one year of Matz (coming off a down year).
Really- Care to give an example of the #3 or #4 they could have gotten.
Seriously? They are getting a controllable #3/4 for $5M?
Matz vs. the Yankees righty bats will not go well. Good deal.
Bahhahahahahahaha. great laughing moment of the day lord.
LHP are the way to go in Yankee Stadium though with the short porch in RF.
Matz pitching in Philly was a bad scene though.
With all the players the Blue Jays are interested in this offseason they better start clearing some 40-man roster space…….
His sinker looked great! Except for a little detail-batters kept hitting it!
Salary dump 101…..
That ERA in the east is fixing to be 19.80.
Career ERA+ of 91 as he enters his 7th season in MLB. Hasn’t been above league average since 2016.
Matz once held promise, but it’s been years since that guy stepped on the mound. Moving from CitiField to the high-octane offensive parks in the AL East doesn’t look like a good match. Moving Matz, clearing his salary, and getting a few prospects is a win for the Metsies.
Massive overpay by the Jays. Reid-Foley for Matz straight up should’ve been enough. There was no need to include Diaz too.
Another nothing-burger starter… why can’t Shatkins acquire better starters?
In now six offseasons, Ryu is the only currently reliable, proven MLB top of the rotation starter they’ve acquired.
They’ve traded away guys like Happ and Stroman. They missed on acquiring Jack Flaherty for Donaldson.
After Ryu, the rotation – even with Matz – is a bunch of question marks. And they’ve just helped the Mets free up $5 million more under the luxury tax cap to sign Bauer… lose lose.
Oh lord you are on here now. Sure sign a 300 million pitcher in 2018 heading into a rebuild would that have made you happy chuckles.
Seriously you should seek help- your hatred of Aitkens and Shapiro is borderline mental.
Marko, you are the last person to talk about someone’s mental state.
So you disagree with Kime on whether or not to sign Bauer. Ok, fine. But saying “sign a 300 million pitcher in 2018” is nonsense since he did not say that.
If anyone is showing their hatred here, its you.
I know it is over your head WildBillTetley but I was using hyperbole to highlight how ridiculous his comments are.
There was no mention of the Jays acquiring Bauer but then again reading comprehension was never your strong suit.
Have a wonderful day…
Why are you angry?
They needed 40 man roster spot. While taking a flier for $5 million. They have 10 better pitchers than SRF or Diaz. If nothing changes they look at Fisher through spring training then cut him to make room for Cole or Mayza. Look at how great the Jays look while through no fault of theirs the got nothing much for Osuma, Donaldson and Giles.
Drop Fisher, there’s the 40-man spot. Opening room on the 40-man is not a reason to make a deal for Matz. You do it because you believe he helps you win.
Great move by the Mets. I can’t believe that anyone would take Matz for a couple of decent young arms. Maybe we can find takers for Familia and Betances so we can sign Bauer, Tiajuan Walker and Marisnek.
I wonder if they were so interested because he has never played them in his career and just dont know him. I thought Matz would be a good rebound guy and would be needed for depth. No Pitcher hit 100 innings last year so 6th and 7th pitchers will be needed at some point. Unfortunately, i dont know the guys getting back but sounds like it was a very worth it especially if it frees up enough to hire an upgrade for the rotation.
Having watched Steven Matz his entire Mets career, I wish to thank him for the memories. I remember when he arrived and his great moments and who can forget his grandfather in CitiField cheering for him.
I also noticed his sincere charitable side honoring and supporting Firefighter families.
Unfortunately there was last season but Steven you’re better than that at least I hope.
I don’t like the trade at first glance but the jays gave up garbage for him….one of which was even passed up on in the Rule 5. So all the Mets fans getting excited you need to take a step back and maybe take the rose coloured glasses off. Just be happy you got the salary off the books. Given you SP depth I think that’s a good move for you guys. Matz looks below average to me.
But as u drift off to sleep tonight I really hope you don’t have this thought in your head…..what if Matz just needed a change of scenery, or to get away from pitching in a stadium less than 3 hours drive from where he was born? Or maybe he just needs a new coaching staff to alter a thing or two (ala Ray…his numbers approved remarkably after getting here)? Not saying it’s gonna happen but it might. And if it does you might just be a little less happy
Could also be a move making room for that rumored Bryant-Hendricks trade
These are the types of moves that can aid in teams avoiding full-scale rebuilds. I’m not saying what the Mets got here is an organizational-defining package, but they turned what may have been a spare part into three young arms.
It’s really the approach here that I admire.
Correct me if I’m wrong, I’m not a Mets fan and certainly not up to speed on their farm and their prospects, but I seem to recall Sean Reid-Foley being traded from the Mets to the Blue Jays a couple years back, maybe as part of the Stroman deal. Am I crazy and totally misremembering or is that accurate?
Sean Reid-Foley (SRF) was former Blue Jays top 100 prospect. Still a glimmer of hope for him, would be nice to see him land a role. Sweet stache.
Simeon Woods-Richardson (SWR) was the key piece in the return from the Mets for Stroman. Top 100 MLB prospect rank, a lot of excitement, seems unlikely to be a trade chip. Could become another SRF or another Stroman. ETA 2023 according to fangraphs.
How many #5 or #6 starting pitchers are needed to compete in the AL East?
Well done by the Mets.
Regardless of the positives this brings the Blue Jays, this move really doesn’t help them compete. If winning isn’t the goal in 2021 then this move isn’t that bad. If winning in 2021 is the goal, this move wasn’t necessary.
Guest, you may be over thinking this move. All the Jays have done is replace SRF on the 40 man with Matz but they also free up a needed 40 man spot by including Diaz., that roster spot is needed for the signing of Semien
I think the Jays are overvaluing Fisher who’s still on the squad. That’s the man to drop. I also think, and I could very well be wrong here, that another move (or two) is on the horizon. One would think.
I can not disagree on your points about Fisher Guest and that more moves are to come. I do believe the only reason Fisher is still on the 40 man roster is because he bats left JMHO
You’re probably right, and I believe the Jays still have faith in Fisher.
Admittedly from the outside looking in (who knows what any team’s FO truly has in mind?), it appears that everyone is overthinking this.
The Jays needed 40-man space, and took a $5M flier that could be a bargain or a bust. Either way, it’s no big deal.
Imagine if (as so many have suggested) NYM had DFA’ed Matz and Toronto signed him to a 1/5. Gambles like that happen everyday.
The only difference here is the 3 arms they surrendered .. and none are (currently) game-changers, much less organization changers.
Maybe someone wins this trade down the road, or maybe it’s a wash. Either way, it doesn’t alter the course of either franchise or either divisional race to any degree
Either Toronto really loves Matz, soured on Foley or both. I like the deal for the Mets. Dump a little payroll and swap Foley for Matz and you also get a couple other players.
This trade reminds of the time when Alderson traded Addison Reed for 3 farts from Boston.
This is a win-win for both teams. Josh Winckowski is a “diamond in the rough”. TOR is in win now mode whereas NYM are cleaning up their roster.
If you’re in win-now mode, you don’t add Matz to your rotation.
Correct Bill M. But pointing this out upsets certain Jays fans. There were other ways to effectively maneuver the 40-man roster.
Mets traded for 1 year of Lindor, they are hardly “cleaning up their roster”
very bad move for Jays!
Looking at the Jays current 40 man and the fact that they might limit to the 26 man to 13 pitcher-13 Batters and the need to watch innings on arms this year.
I wonder if they might set up their rotation -pen like this… Naturally ST perfomance may mean some adjustment.
1- Ryu (L)
2- Pearson (R) Metz (L)
3- Roark (R)
4- Ray (L) Chatwood (R)
5-Thornton
Pen
Yates (L) Romano (R) Dolis (R) Borucki (L) Yamaguchi (R)
and Cole (R) or Maiza (L)
AAA
Hatch (R) , Kay (L) , Merryweather (R), Murphy (R)
Zeuch (R) Waguespack (R)
3 Points.
1- If we add another SP pitcher then Thornton likely
goes to AAA as well .
2- The Right Left mixture of the starters and the piggybacks would cause headaches for opposing managers with match ups.
3-We have alot of MLB calibre SP # 4 or 5 guys in AAA – Merryweather and Murphy are the 2 I think may surprise us.
Makes you wonder what the Jays could get in a 2 for one plus a mid-late teen prospect or 2.
Thornton-Hatch plus 2x Prospects for a # 3 starter who has 2 years of control and is earning 5-8 million.
I feel like they keep Hatch in the MLB pen and move Borucki to AAA to stretch out as a starter. Wasn’t that the plan for Borucki ahead of the pandemic shortened season? There were a Few AAA starters in the pen last year.
Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s my take.
Borucki has shown the potential to be a great #3 starter but he has durability-injury concerns now. Last ST it seemed he had the inside track to the last SP slot but he got hurt. You may be right – it will be something to keep an eye on in ST.
Just came across this from Oct 2- Blue Jays general manager Ross Atkins said Friday that the club plans to keep Ryan Borucki in the bullpen next season.
Matz has talent but must be a mess upstairs. Maybe he’ll pitch better when his velocity is kilometers per hour.
Lol yea adding 1.6x to your velo. I read an article last night with quotes from the Mets ex announcer that he has the talent to be a TOR but he cant get out of his own head. That a change of scenery away from his hometown club might work wonders.
To be fair, all pitchers that make it to MLB have talent. The problem is that their flaws show when they are there playing against the best players in the world. Matz is just another pitcher. The only difference is that he was another one on the Mets who was hyped up into being extremely overrated….especially with that “Five Aces” crud that was spewed out.
Failed minor leaguers just don’t have the talent it takes to receive the type of hype that group experienced, you would know about that, so it’s easy to hide behind a keyboard and take shots at them every chance you can in a sad attempt to feel better about what you yearned for but simply were never good enough to have.
so it’s easy to hide behind a keyboard and take shots at them
==============================================================
Aren’t you the one that started the conversation by saying “but must be a mess upstairs.”?
Is saying the guy is mentally screwed up not taking a shot at him?
Joe, two different people posting here. Whynot is not Whyhazee.
Well, they are at least cousins, right?
Yeah close enough 🙂
@whynot
Was that a comment toward me?
As a matter of fact it was
Marlins,
The five aces was a great deal of hype. Harvey had his All Star year but he couldn’t handle the party life in NYC and flamed out. Injuries also played a role but the funny thing is that Jacob Degrom was the true ace and the Mets organization totally underrated him initially. The worst player development system in MLB as far as talent evaluation. Too bad you lost Jose Fernandez. I used to boat near where he crashed off of Star Island by Shaq’s house. He missed the red buoy coming in. Red right return basic boating safety.
Is it me, or does the TO rotation look a little weak?
And, tangential to that, should Pearson really be starting the year in the pros? He’s got real talent, but got beaten up pretty well last year. IMHO, y’all should start him in AAA, gain another year of service time, and maybe coach him up a little.
It’s weak.
You’re not wrong. Ryu is top-notch if he’s healthy, but there’s a big drop-off after that. As for Pearson, keeping him down is justifiable, but if he shows well in ST, I’d bet he breaks camp with the Jays. If their young guys like Biggio and Vlad, Jr., can step up, they could give the Yankees a run for the division now that they have Springer. When your window opens, you want your best guys up there, regardless of seasoning.
New Reality tv show this summer:
“The BlueJays come watch us try to pitch show”
Starring one starter Ryu to pitch every game.
I was reading an article and it showed by War the Jays have the 7th best rotation in baseball so it got me thinking about the Jays mgmt approach and ways of improving the rotation .
Public projection models are not the last word in a pitchers value but they are a benchmark- we all know every team has their own projection model and no longer rely on only past results.
With that said I took the avg. 2021 FIP projection using (Depth charts-steamers- zips )
The Jays currently have 12 pitcher who could potential get starts for the Jays or act as openers-bulk guys. They can be broken down into 4 groups
1- Ryu (3.97)
2- Pearson-Stripling-Ray-Murphy-Merryweather
( 4.45-4.57 )
3- Thornton-Matz-Chatwood ( 4.70-4.73)
4- Hatch-Kay-Roark (4.90-5.14)
One thing that pops our straight away is that Roark is one of the worse of the bunch -however with a 12M salary he is not going to be cut straight off or used in the bullpen- maybe we look at a bad contract-bad contract swap. He has zero trade value as is.
Now to upgrade it is obvious we need a pitcher better then the 4.45-4.57 range. A second part of that is the opportunity cost ( payroll and-or prospects worth it )
Starting first with the Top 5 remaining FA pitchers
Bauer (3.87 ) Paxton (4.04) Tanaka (4.41) Odorizzi (4.64) Walker (4.85)
1- Surprise Bauer is the only clear cut upgrade but committing 30+ million AAV on him on a 5-6 yr deal likely is not in the cards. Maybe a short high AAV would do it but Jays mgmt has said the heavy lifting is likely done.
2- Tanaka likely will return to Japan
3- Odorizzi and Walker do not really move the bar enough to warrant a multi year deal.
Paxton stands out as the only Upgrade and he does have the injury risk but on a one year (show me deal ) + option it might be worth .
Next I looked at 5 pitcher that have to varying degrees popped up as potential trade targets.
Cubs -Hendricks (4.37)
Reds- Castillo (3.75 ) Gray (4.05)
Rockies- Marquez (4.12)
Mariners- Gonzales ( 4.47 )
1-To start it points out what we all ready know Castillo would be a great upgrade but the cost in prospects would be HUGE.
2-Marquez and Gonzales do not really move the needle much and because of their contracts having high surplus value they would cost a decent haul on prospects.
3- Many on here always talk about Hendricks but i doubt the Cubs would trade him unless they are blown away by an offer and he just is not a big enough improvement.
4- Gray at (4.05) is identical to Paxton and has less of an injury risk -however some wonder what effect a return to the AL east might have on him.
With all of the above in mind I think a trade for Gray might be the best option- I was never big on him but looking at this he may be our best option . However with the NL Central being so week I doubt the Reds will move him so we are back to Paxton or standing pat till the Deadline when more teams are selling.
With the way the Jays pitching is currently configured it looks like a sure bet there will be piggybacking going on for a while. Looking at how a pitchers ERA blooms 3rd time thru we might get the same mileage out of a Pearson-Matz piggyback as we would a #2 or #3 starter without the acquisition cost and as the season wears on traditional starters will emerge .
If either the Astros or Nationals are out of it by the deadline picking up a rental like Scherzer or Greinke would not be so bad for the run into the playoffs.
Have some faith Jays Fans things are not as horrible as it seems.
Reading an article? You just wrote one! AaronSapoznik, is that you?
No idea who that is:)
White Sox fan, as am I, but posts on a number of articles. Usually very in-depth analysis and doesn’t troll. One of the good ones. Very long posts a lot of the time, though.
FWIW, I doubt the M’s trade away Gonzalez. Their window isn’t open yet, but they have Kellenic and Lewis, plus some other decent pieces. With their affordable control on Gonzalez and length of that deal, I’d wager they see him as part of their next winning club.
Had I my pick of them, considering the likely prospect cost of each, I’d take Castillo, Marquez, Gray, then Hendricks, in that order.
I agree the West is not looking overly strong so the Mariners might be a sleeper pick.
I love the thought of Castillo but the Reds will rightfully want a kings ransom. With no minors last year i would prefer holding until at least the trade deadline and see what over options crop up.
The Jays have the prospects to get it done, and probably keep both Pearson and Martin. They have an excellent offense, but a lack of TOR pitching can sink them, especially come the playoffs.
They just signed Springer and the third baseman FA from Oakland. How are things horrible? oh and you seem to have waaaay too much time on your hands. Isn’t there any Canadian things you could be doing…eating donuts, watching hockey, being really cold?
Just shoveled out my igloo and ready to go ice fishing…
Last year, when the rosters started at 30 and then went to 28, piggybacking was a fine idea. This year, if the rosters stay at 26, I don’t think it’s a good idea. Maybe with one spot in the rotation.
Great points @Marko
I believe durability and protecting other arms was the thinking at the time of the Roark signing.
That value didn’t exist last year with a shortened season & expanded rosters. Allowing for heavier BP use.
Last season Roark was complaining about being taken out of games too early. That his role was to go deep into games. Well man, maybe pitch better? Lol
I was wondering if this was going to happen, havign 3 lefties in spring training sounded a bit unpractical to me. It makes more sense to get Bauer. Still think there is room for another trade, need a righty bat, and the DH is position is still up in the air. Wondering when the MLB and the Player Union will make a decision.
All three players the Mets got could end up making an impact on their ML roster over the next few years. While none of them could end up being amazing All-Stars, you have to look at getting three arms that will pitch at the big league level for Matz is a good move.
A number 5 type guy and no more.
Starting pitching is still pretty much Ryu, Pearson (untested/rushed/not ready), Ray, who could be a middle rotation guy but is right now throwing like a scrub and after that garbage.. In other words, it’s Ryu and pray for rain for four days.
Upgrades need to be made. At least one 1-2 type guy is needed.
Spot-on. But don’t tell any of the upbeat Jays fans above applauding these acquisitions. You’ll ruin their weekend with accurate assessments.
Hank
Most Jays Fans agree that pitching is needed – the question is when.
Objectively we need a True #1 and a #3.
Right now it boils down to Supply and Demand . Few teams selling and those that are have sky high asking price. . The 2nd tier FA pitchers carry high risk- either performance and or injury.
Bauer- no thanks -especially not after reading about him basically online stalking a girl for a weekend only a couple years ago. He is a side show risk and a performance risk.
There will be alot more high end pitchers available at the deadline and some of our own guys may emerge as solid #3 types..
A necessary risk. Go in or go home. There is no deadline if the Jays are not in the hunt. Go get Bauer.