March 31, 9:36 pm: There haven’t been any new discussions or proposals between the sides, hears Jeff Passan of ESPN (Twitter link). The Mets have not come off their $325MM offer, while Lindor is holding firm with an ask “more than $50MM” greater than that.
March 31, 10:15 am: The stalemate remains in place this morning, tweets Thosar, who adds that neither side expects additional discussions at the moment. Optimism of a deal being reached today is currently low. One source tells Newsday’s Tim Healey: “No talks and none expected.”
March 30: 10:14 pm: The Mets’ $325MM offer does not contain any deferred money, Heyman hears (Twitter link). Lindor is holding firm on his $385MM ask, Heyman adds.
12:07 pm: Cohen commented on the negotations via his Twitter account, saying “I have made a great offer [to Lindor]. It does take two to tango.” Another tweet praised the shortstop, saying “Lindor is a heckuva player and a great guy . I hope he decides to sign.”
10:24 am: The Mets and Francisco Lindor appear to be at something of a standstill, with reports from SNY’s Andy Martino and MLB Network’s Jon Heyman last night indicating that the team put forth a 10-year, $325MM offer. Newsday’s Tim Healey, meanwhile reported that Lindor’s camp countered at $385MM over 12 years.
Martino reports this morning that while there’s some pessimism from the Mets, they’re also “brainstorming” some creative options to try to get a deal across the finish line. The Mets, according to Deesha Thosar of the New York Daily News, were rather surprised by Lindor’s recent counteroffer. Thosar reports that the Lindor camp at one point suggested that the extension could check in below Mookie Betts’ 12-year, $365MM deal with the Dodgers.
Lindor’s $385MM asking price would be the largest commitment ever made to a player in terms of new money tacked onto a deal. That title currently is held by Betts and his $365MM deal with the Dodgers, which narrowly eclipsed the 10 years and $360MM the Angels added to Mike Trout’s contract on his last extension (bringing his total commitment from the Angels to $426.5MM over 12 years.) San Diego’s Fernando Tatis Jr. has the largest contract ever signed by a shortstop, recently agreeing to a 14-year, $340MM extension.
Like Betts, Lindor is heading into his age-27 season with a hefty arbitration salary already agreed upon ($22.3MM, in this case). His new contract would begin in his age-28 season, as was the case with Betts in Los Angeles. It’s not exactly surprising that Lindor’s camp would seek to top the Betts mark — thus giving them claim to the largest extension in MLB history — but at this point it seems as though the two sides are at an impasse with regard to contract length.
In terms of average annual value, the Mets’ current offer is actually slightly higher than the reported counteroffer. At the very least, it seems the two sides can align on an annual value in the $32MM range. The most straightforward compromise could be simply adding a year at that rate, but Thosar adds that the Mets have not shown a willingness to meet in the middle, which aligns with prior reports that the $325MM figure is the team’s “final” offer.
From a long-term payroll vantage point, the Mets can certainly afford to make such a commitment. New owner Steve Cohen is the game’s wealthiest owner, but even beyond that fact, the team’s payroll is fairly clean. They owe Robinson Cano a regrettable $20.25MM in 2022 and 2023 — the Mariners are covering $3.75MM of his $24MM salary each year — but their only long-term salaries of note beyond Cano are those of Jacob deGrom and James McCann. They’ll owe deGrom $33.5MM in 2022 and $30.5MM in 2023 before deciding on a $32MM club option for 2024. McCann, meanwhile, is owed $8MM both in 2021 and 2022 before earning $12MM in 2023 and 2024.
All told, the Mets have about $93MM in guaranteed salary on the 2022 books at the moment. That number falls to about $70MM in 2023, and McCann’s $12MM salary is the only money they have firmly committed to the 2024 roster. Signing Lindor to an extension of any length wouldn’t considerably impede the team’s efforts to build out the roster in the coming years, although that of course doesn’t mean they should simply hand him a blank check. Any negotiation has its cutoff point, and the Mets appear at or quite close to theirs. Given that they’re also hoping to lock up Michael Conforto and surely want to keep deGrom in a Mets uniform for his whole career, there are some other balls in the air that must be considered by Cohen and team president Sandy Alderson.
The outcome of talks between Lindor and the Mets will have a much broader reach than Citi Field or even the NL East, however. Lindor is currently slated to headline a historic crop of free-agent shortstops next winter — really, a historic crop of free agents in general. If he agrees to forgo that trip to the open market, it’d create less competition for the likes of Corey Seager, Carlos Correa, Trevor Story and Javier Baez, and it would free the Mets up to focus their free-agent efforts on other areas right out of the gate.
Albatross
Yes you are
I’m glad you feel that way because I’m guessing you’re a Mets fan and I am not. I would love to see them saddled with this deal.
Saddled ??
Are the Dodgers saddled with Mookie Bett’s deal? Are the Angels saddled with Rendon or trout? Lindor is a superstar. If you can give Fernando tatis jr. A gazillion dollars you can give Lindor a chunk.
I’m much more comfortable with the latter deals than giving a 28 year old SS who midway through “only” a 10 year deal will give you maybe average to slightly above average offense and likely on his way to being moved to 3rd base.
Im with u fsf. Lindor is beyond greedy. His contract demands make fans hate players which is sad. I try to always side with the players but 400 million for anybody is ridiculous
They will be.
He’s not on trout’s or betts’ level at all so people need to stop using them as comps
As a Braves can I hope they give in to the 12 years. He might be a great player, and he is, but the end of that contract will be a hindrance(no matter how much money Cohen has).
There’s a VERY simple solution and both sides can “claim” a win. Agree to the 10 year deal with REALISTIC vesting clauses so that if he gets/hits certain marks/#’s he gets his ADDITIONAL millions. If not, he “ONLY” makes $325,000,000.00 over the next 10 years.
YES, they are saddled with the Mookie Betts deal.
There is no way Mookie is still just as good in 7 years.
The Dodgers will be stuck paying a big contract for many years of poor production or no production.
Just like every big contract like this that has been signed.
From davis to pujols. There has not been an exception.
Team are fools to sign these contracts.
NO player is the same player in their mid to late 30s, that were in their mid to late 20s, or even early 30s.
You can’t play a player for going for it, but teams need to smarten up and stop this foolish spending..
If the Dodgers win Multiple World series within the first 5-7 years of Mookie’s deal, would it still be considered foolish spending?
I believe the Max Scherzer contract has come without the Nats having to pay “a big contract for many years of poor production or no production.” so not sure your statement is entirely accurate.
But your point is salient. I wouldn’t like the risk of paying a 39 year old SS over $30m in 2033.
The calculation needs to be whether the excess value obtained by the team in the earlier years of a long-term contract justify what they are paying at the back end. It could be structured to pay more early and less later. That has no effect on competitive balance tax calculation and would really only appease fans who object to seeing a high $30+ million salary attached to an old guy when he might have been producing $40 million a year in value in the first half of the contract. With interest rates what they are, does what is effectively a deferral from the front end of the contract to the back end really matter much to either the player or the team? I wish people would stop looking at the back end of mega-contracts without the context of the front end. The really bad mega deals like Chris Davis and possibly Nolan Arenado and Giancarlo Stanton are bad early on because the player’s performance immediately fell off a cliff, the salary affected payroll to the point that the team could not function and had the trade the player at a bug loss, or the player couldn’t stay healthy to produce up to it, respectively.
Oh, and the unknown factors are the next CBA and where salaries will go int he next decade. The fact that A-Rod’s two contracts both keep appearing on the biggest contract lists here says that the salaries for the top ten players probably hasn’t advanced that mu8ch in the past 20 year., but that does not mean we won’t see long-term $40 million AAv contracts in the years to come,
Do you truly think how a team structures a contract might include “appeasing fans” or not?
I’d suggest that from a franchises objective, structuring the contract fits with a business plan on where they think the team and farm system will be in the future. At the same time, I don’t know how a team can forecast out 8-10-12 years. That’s ridiculous. Most managers and FO personnel turn over faster than that, and many ownership groups as well. Which is why I find this episode so funny.
Going into this my impression was that Lindor had no desire to sign before his free agency. The kid saw the media attention Harper and Mercado got a few years ago. He wants that. He wants ESPN taking about him each day. Franchises baseball fans around the country talking about him joining their team. He’s a narcissist with a world class ego. He needs the attention. He gets paid either way. He’s like a glamourous woman that wants to be wined, dined, and chased. He needs that. He played baseball in Cleveland when Lebron played basketball there. He saw how it’s done. He wants to be a celebrity that transcends baseball and sports. He want’s to do national commercials that are shown even in the offseason. Darn it – he wants Nike to build a national ad campaign around him.
If the Dodgers win 3 or 4 championships in that time maybe its not as bad but the likely hood of that is slim. Dodgers are going to have several players looking for similar paydays and the reality is they all won’t get them and some will leave. The window to win is not 5-7 years, 3-5 maybe whats left before Kershaw, Buehler, Bellinger, May, Gonsolin, and the rest start to become too expensive to keep
Another solution could be to give him opt-outs every two years. His best shots at bolting for a better deal would be in his age 29 and age 31 seasons.
Lindor = Most oveverrated player in baseball.. Opted out of last season but…. didn’t tell the indians until after the season was over. He plays hard only when he’s in the mood. But his hair is colorful and his jewelry collection spectacular. Good luck Mets. All he needs is a long-term contract and he can loaf the rest of his career. You’ll be sorry.
Indianfan, i was afraid of this after the trade was made. He loves showboating thats for sure. Enjoy Gimenez because i miss him already
This!!! I’ve been say the exact damn thing since his stupid $400mil asking price.
I officially DO NOT LIKE THIS AHOLE
A chunk is fine. He wants stupid money.
“ YES, they are saddled with the Mookie Betts deal.
There is no way Mookie is still just as good in 7 years.
The Dodgers will be stuck paying a big contract for many years of poor production or no production.
Just like every big contract like this that has been signed.
From davis to pujols. There has not been an exception.
Team are fools to sign these contracts.”
No buddy. You’re the fool for failing to grasp how sport valuations work. A Mookie betts season is worth 50-60M. If he has 7 years of his vintage self, the dodgers already got their value from the deal. The last 5 years are gravy.
What’s so hard about value? For a player to be worth 360M he needs to acclimate a certain amount of value. If he achieves that mark 5 years before the end of the deal, how tf is it a bad deal?
Trout, Betts, Renton are all World Series champion catalysts or MVPs.
Lindor is a good player and has a great smile But that about it. Remember these words 2.5 years from now he will regress badly.
I think he was referring more towards the contracts of Pujols and Chris Davis because of the extended guarantees they are still getting paid.
His contract is back loafed for awhile.
The way the fed is printing money we all may be making $30 million in 2033
In the same fashion that the Dodgers are saddled with Betts’s $365m contract? All that did was help them win a WS last year…and make them favorites in years to come. When you want to be a winner in this league, it takes money… and lots of it.
Lindor is stupid is as stupid does. He’s not going to sign..
FSF and Astros2017 –
I agree with you both 100%. $325 mil is an insane amount of money and who in their right mind is going to balk at that? How many other teams out there are going to even going to be able to approach matching THAT offer, much less pay $385 mil. If I’m the Mets, I’d call Lindor’s bluff and let him go ahead and test the free agent market along with those other 4 premium SS options. I wouldn’t want to be paying a 38-39 year old SS nearly $33 million a year. Hell no. Odds are about 95% that he won’t even be roster-worthy at that point. How many SS in the history of major league baseball have been worth a crap at that age? The Mets would be better off signing Correa, Story, or Seager for a far more reasonable price and let Lindor try to find someone with the need for a SS and the willingness/ability to meet his insane demands…all while staying within the salary cap. Good luck to you, Cisco, you greedy jerk***!
The asterisk 2020 is the only chance the dodgers ever had at winning anything.
Asterisk LOL !!!!!
In sports there is no asterisk for any championship at any time, ever. Each team playing had the same circumstances and the same rules.
That’s like saying the team that lost had too many injuries so there’s an asterisk. It’s all part of the game and you look at the scoreboard at the end.
Whether suspension or injury or short season, every team has the same rules to go by. There are no asterisks for any champions in any sports. End of story.
A-Rod’s deal with Texas? Scherzer? Kershaw? Not sure you can say large deals have never worked out, no exceptions.
Agree totally 100%, glad we traded him. Tribe fans will move on from Lindor very quickly! That kind of contract is ridiculous and I don’t see the Mets matching his demands. Good luck to them and Go Tribe!!
@ lemonlyman;
L O L
Yes, Scherzer’s deal worked out well for the Nationals.
Kershaw? You think he’s been worth that money?
A-Rod’s deal with Texas? Now THAT one is hilarious. That deal so
screwed the Texas franchise that they had to eat even more money to get the Yankees to take on his contract. The result of that deal was the Owner (by no means a poor man) had to sell the Ranger franchise – he subsequently put together Comcast Communications where he made real money.
Now let’s talk about some other long-term contracts….
Mo Vaughn
Daisuke Matsuzaka
Giancarlo Stanton
Nick Swisher
Carl Crawford
Ryan Howard
Albert Pujols
Josh Hamilton
David Price
Mike Hampton
Jacoby Ellsbury
Jonathan Papelbon
Jason Heyward
Kevin Brown
Dexter Fowler
Chris Davis
Jason Bay
Robinson Cano
Matt Kemp
Joey Votto
Miguel Cabrera
I can find dozens more.
Do you have any comprehension of what those deals did to the franchises that gave those contracts out? Franchises are a business. They live on budgets. When they have exorbitant non-performing assets on the books, cuts have to be made. That’s the real world. It’s not like the government where they just print more money.
In all of the above cases the franchises did poorly for years. They had to limit some combination of their payroll, scouting staff, front office staff, hardware / software expenses, even passing on players in the draft because they couldn’t afford the bonus money the guy wanted. And on and on.
Staying away from outrageous long-term contracts is why small market teams such as the Rays, A’s, Brewers, Indians, and Royals, can compete in spurts. Ridding themselves of said contracts and tanking is what the Mariners, Marlins, Pirates, Rangers, Tigers and others have had to do recently.
Mr. Katz has made the biggest mistake of his life. He needs to shut up, let Lindor go, and work with his management team to build a productive farm system over the next few years. Seriously, what a DUMMY! His team is at the luxury tax. He has Cano coming back the next 2 years for $48m of which he might be worth $5 (possibly has negative value as he’ll be taking playing time from Mets that are better than him). Boros now wants a fortune for Conforto. If Lindor is worth a AAV of $30m-plus, than DeGrom is worth $40M-plus. And ain’t no other decent free agent going to give the Mets anything less then an overpay into the future.
The man is a financial wizard. But like other fabulously wealthy people that bought teams, he’s learning that you cannot quickly spend to the World Series. It’s like being blackmailed – the payments never end, and the amount keeps going up.
much of Lindor’s value is based on his defense and his D can’t hold up for much more than half of the 10 year’s that the Mets are offering
and, still, Lindor is demanding 12 years
so, yeah, saddled it might be
Samuel –
Good work, my friend
I think you guys are all correct. I’m a Red Sox fan and they have a history of letting guys walk in the last 20 or so years. The guy does well, hits 30 years old or so and they want big money. Good luck buddy don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
Jason Bay, Pedro Martinez, Papelbon, Nomar via trade, Jacoby Ellsbury, Johnny Damon.
I hope the owner stands firm on what he offered which is still astronomical, and doesn’t give in to a contract which would saddle the Mets for years and years. Really looks like everyone is in agreement on that.
@Joeyg2033 the Betts extension didn’t help them win a WS in 2020. They already had him for 2020 with or without the extension.
We got lucky to some degree. Once we won in 2004, Theo had flexibility to bad 2005. With Damon, we had Ellsbury to step in. With Ellsbury, we had JBJ able to step in. Having a good farm makes the FA decisions a lot easier.
@Wendell And now they are teammates…
@Joeyg2033 Betts contract didn’t help the Dodgers win last year because they were going to have him last season either way. The contract takes effect this season so we are yet to see how much it will help moving forward.
“If the Dodgers win Multiple World Series within the first 5-7 years I’d Mookie’s deal, would it still be considered foolish spending?”
That’s a bit “If” to start off with there. So far they’ve won 1, and have no guarantee to win any more than that.
Mr LOL
Let’s go Samuel. You wanna come after Kershaw?
He signed his massive deal pre 2014. I’ll include all types of stats to please your pudding. He has 98 wins in that time, a 766 winning percentage. And he also owns THE BEST ALL TIME winning percentage for a pitcher in his career
Since 2014, he’s posted a 2.26 ERA in 173 starts, 14 CG, 1153 innings(thats 228 innings per year for 7 straight years), a 172 ERA+, averaged 189 Ks per year, 10.3 K/O, 2.62 FIP. He accumulated 33.8 War, aka averaged 6.7 WAR/162. In his 13 year career, he has ONE season with an ERA over 3.00, and it was 3.03
He won his 2nd straight Cy in 2014, and finished top 5 CYA voting the first 4 years of the deal
So yeah idiot. He’s been worth the money. He’s been Jacob DeGrom for twice as long as Degrom has been in the league. Show some respect
Dodger’s were winners before Betts, He was just the cherry on top. Take a good team, make them all time great, (Not a Dodgers Fan, farthest thing from….. Astros fan)
@Lurking, @Samual; Samual, I don’t agree with you most of the time, and in this instance I get your overall point. But, @Lurking is dead on… Kershaw? Like, {arguably} the best pitcher of this generation, Kershaw? I don’t get it… out of the contracts today, he’s got to be one of the very last on the list of “not worth it” contracts. As Lurking clearly illustrated, he’s handily the most accomplished of any in today’s game, still throwing extremely well to boot, and is relatively young.
I mean, Kershaw?
CC Sabathia is an exception. While older and not a power pitcher at the end, the Yankees and CC extended his deal buy a year 3 different times…
wow…turning down 1/3 of a BILLION dollars.
10 years is already too generous, but such is the issue with signing the top guys. 12 years would simply be too much. That would have maybe 5 bad years included in it. And Lindor is no Mookie Betts.
He’s not worth 10/$325M, let alone 12/$385M.
worth or not, he’ll get that in free agency
Unless all the other SS talent in next year’s class is extended before the season ends, he will not be getting 385 in free agency, no.
no, not 385, but at least 325 and he can have a choice of a few destinations.
He isn’t worth that deal and I don’t believe he will get it. Considering there are only 3-4 teams that can afford anything close to that deal, his choices will be very short.
From who?
Unless he has a monster year this year, there is a 0% chance he gets a deal anywhere near 12/$385 million. He should have jumped at 10/$325 million. A mediocre year or an injury and he’ll never see an offer close to that again.
He’s not worth it? Only the free market determines that. If he gets it then he’s worth it. Some one will pay. Believe me.
Veeeery short. Who would pay him? LA would just pay Seager, Cubs would just pay Baez, most other competitive teams who could spend that much already have a good SS.
And when they pay and the contract kills their budget it will have not been worth it
Doubtful. He’s not even in realm of trout or betts or tatis for that matter. Great glove and slightly above average bat. Don’t see it especially with all the talent available next winter
No he won’t.
no he won’t
DarkSide380 –
I highly doubt it. There are only so many teams that need a SS and can afford that ridiculous salary within the their cap. Considering there are 4 other premium options for these limited amount of teams to turn to, I don’t see any way he gets anything close to that. You want to pay a 38-39 year old SS $33 million a year?
no, he won’t get that in free agency next off-season. too many shortstops wil be looking for teams
500 millions!
15% to the Nike sweat shops
On a 10 year sell your soul to the devil
Straight up economics contract
Drugs are bad muhkay
He’s not worth it? Only the free market determines that. If he gets it then he’s worth it. Some one will pay. Believe me.
No, not 385. No chance. Too many good cheaper options.
A 10/345 gets it done.
Lindor is not even in the same sentence as Betts Seager Trout etc. the Mets would be insane to give him more than 10 years 300m
Sorry, did you just put Seager in a sentence with Betts and Trout?
You mean Corey Seager? The Corey Seager that won the 2016 NL ROY, 2020 NLCS MVP, the 2020 WS MVP and is only 26 yrs old…….that Corey? Why yes, yes he did.
The only seager Ik isn’t even close to their level.
Actually, he meant Kyle Seager. LOL
Hahahahahahahahha, Corey Seager isn’t a top 20 hitter!
Name 20 hitters who posted a 152 OPS+ season in recent memory. Then name 20 SS who fit that bill
Both came up in 2015. Lindor has 28 rWAR compared to Seager’s 17. The insult is putting Seager in Lindor’s class.
All that shows is Seager missed two full seasons to injury and played 2019 while recovering from 2 major surgery’s but got back on the field. Even while not 100%, Seager still lead the NL in doubles. Those then became home runs in 2020-21
If Seager actually had the same number of games Rob, maybe you have a point. Congrats. The guy with more games has a higher counting stat total!
I’ll take the 152 OPS+ and -1 DRS SS over the 102 OPS+ SS with 3-5 DRS. that’s what Lindor puts up. Another one of those years he’s getting 200M not 385
Arthur Morgan –
Sorry, but even that does not put him at the Betts/Trout level…you must be a Dodger homer. Has ANY national writer, publication, baseball “expert” or statistics (such as WAR) ever come close to suggesting such a thing?? It’s nice that you have your opinion, and you have a right to have one…it’s just wrong. Open your eyes. Seager is a great player but Trout and Betts are on a completely different plane.
lol I thought the same. Wait but he did have a good spring thought…
He’s not even a top three shortstop lol
Neither is Lindor.
dpsmith22 –
Name 3 SS’s with better WAR totals over the last 3-4 years than Lindor. Go ahead. I’ll give you some time. Can you even name 2? 1?
Using a single stat to prove your point is comical.
dpsmilth22 –
What stat would you like you use, smart***?? Go ahead pick 10 different stats and try the same exercise. You are a fool. Making a stupid statement such as yours above with nothing to back it up is far more comical. Sad, actually
[Corey Seagers Mom has entered the chat]
Asking for Betts and Trout money is insane. $325m is probably an overpay. He is actually worth about $200. Take the money to the bank Franky!
i guess you arent his agent
I mean his agent knows his worth, and it’s his job to make sure the ask is higher than the offer to maximize his earnings. His agent probably told him well squeeze them until the deadline but ultimately I think Lindor takes whatever the Mets next offer is. His agent knows they’re taking the offer, the FA market is goin to be loaded with shortstops.
yeah and his agent knows he’s more then $200 million
And his agent knows he worth less than $325m for his on field production which is why I said take the money to the bank.
At the same point, you always ask for more but he and his agent know he is signing for whatever the Mets offer is in the next 48 hours, assuming the Mets keep the offer at at least 325m.
But he and his agent know they have Cohen bent over a barrel.
If they don’t sign him it’s a PR nightmare in his first big move. NY media will be out for blood with a failure. So Lindors camp are using that leverage to push the demands up and up
He’ll likely sign with the Mets, but it is going to be as high as he can possibly get them to go, and way more than he is worth
Time for Cohen to come out and say that even he has his spending limits. 10/325 is already an overpay and Cohen got rich but not letting anyone take advantage of him. There are plenty of ‘consolation prizes’ available next year if they can’t lock up Lindor now. Mets need to stand firm with their 10/325 offer and be prepared to walk away if he doesn’t take that. He’d be crazy not to!
I mean his agent knows his worth, ??? No he doesn’t
@ Dorothy_Mantooth;
Cohen reminds me of Ted Turner and other wealthy new owners that want to spend to win now……
I think the Padres current owner did that – Preller traded away Trey Turner in a package for a guy I forgot….no one in MLB FO’s thought anyone would be dumb enough to trade a prospect like Trey.
Ted Turner went big and spent on OF Gary Matthews (from the Phillies) and others. The Braves got worse over the next few years. Finally John Schuerholz, Bobby Cox (think he was GM at the time) and others got Turner’s ear and told him they could not spend their way to multi-year contention – they had to take the time to build a quality farm system. They did, and the Braves had a great run for a decade or so.
I don’t know what’s going on with Lindor and the Mets. The team has little player upside and are at the luxury tax. Their farm system is pretty much depleted of quality prospects. And next year Cano comes back to further muddle the financial situation as well as who plays where on the field at DH. In short – within 2-3 years the Mets will be faced with a restructuring of their major and minor league teams. Seems like Lindor and his agent are doing the NBA thing – get a desperate team to give a quality player a large contract. The team starts losing in a year or two. Then cry you want to be traded because they don’t have a commitment to win…..so the player gets traded to a team he wants to go to, with his dream contract.
Add to that – it’s yet unclear as to how MLB teams will recover financially from COVID, and when. Anyone committing to a 10-12 year contract is taking a huge financial risk.
Lindor is as narcistic and attention-hogging as Lebron James (they always find the camera). But Lebron dominates basketball games. However, no one MLB player dominates games – the sport is not structured that way. A player can only bat once every 9 guys, throw a max of 100 pitches every 4-6 days, and field the ball when it’s hit or thrown to him.
This is one of the silliest (approaching) free agency situations I’ve ever seen. I think it’s hilarious.
Darkstar61 –
Over a barrel? To get screwed in the backside? Get real, dude. Cohen is not an idiot…he didn’t make all his money by being forced into bad deals. There are 4 other premium options out there and the Mets didn’t exactly give up the farm to acquire this guy. They will let him walk without a tear if he doesn’t come to his senses and bury that ego down just a little bit.
Yes, I think the same. And reports seem to indicate Mets offer is final. Lindor will cave because it’s the best offer he’ll see.
they kinda already did.
exactly what I hope happens. I hope the Mets stick to their guns. Their getting hosed if he takes the current deal anyway.
Hahahaha! Hahahaha! Hahahaha!
Ridiculous, isn’t it.
You know this guy better than we do; WTF is he doing?
He is doing exactly what he did to the Indians. He is a great player and his teammates love him, but he’s going to go for every dime. Look for him to go to free agency after a good season. He will come back to the Mets if they offer him more than the next team.
Mike Trout is the only one worth the insane amounts of $$$. Idk why they intend on giving 10-12 years. I’d try to give him larger AAV but a shorter deal. 45MM a year for 5 years or maybe 38MM a year for say 7 years.
Mike Trout is worth nothing if they finish 4th every year.
He basically is making half a billion to sit in the sun and watch the playoffs from his couch..
His fault they suck? no…just seems pointless to want to stay in LA at this point.
No pressure to win, just worried about his legacy and making the hall of fame at this point. Winning a World Series isn’t like winning a super bowl. I think all players want to win a super bowl ring in football, in baseball I don’t think players care about winning a championship as much.
He’s already a lock for the HOF. The Angels ownership did a terrible job building a balanced ballclub around him, so it’s there fault the Angels never won a playoff game with him.
you don’t think his crazy salary has anything to do with that?
I agree. Pay him 45 mil over 5 years and that would be my final offer.. No long term deal works out, ever. Here you have a 28 year old middle infielder without PEDS. The top 10 hitters measued by WAR in the NL was 2011 was Matt Kemp, Ryan Braun, Joey Votto, Troy Tulowitzki, Pablo Sandoval, Hunter Pence, Shane Victorino, Justin Upton, Andrew McCutchen, Albert Pujols. Which one was worth a 300million 10 year contract. MAYBE one in Joey Votto.
9 years/$325M or walk away and let someone else take on that albatross.
I honestly think the Mets need to stop at 10/325. You have Story, Baez, Seager next offseason, there’s options.
Correct. You can
better options imo and I love Franky.
C’mon Cohen, cough it up. Lindor is made for New York. With the Spankees collection of dullards, the guy will own the back pages.
LMFAO!
Thats laugable that he asked for that much $$$…..
Ill laugh even harder if the Mets (or any team) give him even close to that…..Talk about a big ole noose around the neck of any team willing to mortgage the next decade + for one man….stupid, stupid STUPID!
Well said. Cleveland is looking smarter all the time.
Trade for Trevor story and sign him to a 10year year deal for 200m and put him at 3rd as insurance for Lindor leaving
Also I’m not signing any player to a deal over 7years if a guy is 27
Trevor Story is getting 300M in his next contract. No way he accepts 10/200.
What? Trevor Story might get 200. He’s not sniffing 300. Lindor isnt “worth” 325 either. He for some reason has a superstar pedigree attached to him.. If you look over the past 4 years. It’s trout and Betts and a gap between everyone else. To pay Lindor even more than those 2 is probably going to bite you.
Story will likely be a much better value signing for whoever gets him.
Yeah I don’t see story getting 300M bc he has the Coors field effect stigma tied to him… I could see something like 9/250 maybe… but all it takes is one team to overpay
Story doesn’t have the “superstar” pedigree attached to him that Lindor does for one reason or another.
Story probably gets 8/190 or something. He’s a year older than Lindor as well. Lesser defender and that probably won’t age well. Might be a candidate to move off of SS in 4-5 years. Inferior player but the $ gap will likely make up for it, IMO.
Story is a better player
yea can’t say I agree that he is a lesser player. Need Story to play a season out of Coors to prove it though. Story still steals bases, Lindor doesn’t, and Lindor may be a better defender, but Story is a quality as no doubt.
Maybe 12/$350 would get it done. If I were the Mets I’d want to front-load that contract though.
Doesn’t matter if you front-load the deal anymore. The AAV is what affects the luxury tax.
There’s absolutely no reason to give a player $30m+ AAV to age 40. Let him walk and take a run at Story.
I’d be more worried about paying a 37 year old $35m than I would be about the luxury tax.
Perhaps they should offer $1m/yr to Lindor then split amongst his descendants until the year 3000.
Lindor, who is only about a 5 WAR guy during his peak physical seasons, wants 32 Million a season until he is 40 years old?
Mets would be smart to walk away, then maybe get him on a 10/300 or less contract in the off-season when more premium SS will be available than there are teams willing to sign them for those costs
11/355 splits the difference. I agree with those who think even 10/325 is an overpay, but that’s how business is done these days.
by idiots maybe.
If you sign a player to a $32MM/yr for 12 years ( or even 10 yrs) how much additional free agent shopping do you really expect from that team?
It should be noted that deGromn has an opt out after this season, so he’ll cost more if he stays.
At what point does this insanity stop? Is it based on performance or ‘one-upsmanship’? Balking at an AAV of $32M, in NY? His endorsements alone will probably equal that. I can see balking at an offer like that if he paid for his travel, hotel stays, meals and every other perk paid for by the club. At some point soon, the 20-25% stadium capacity will become the norm as that will be all that can afford to attend.
I smell a work stoppage
Shhhh your making too much sense for the ‘pay the players’ crowd that patrols out here. They think because your rich you should give your money away on a business that makes a microscopic profit, compared to it’s value.
When I see Lindor’s contract demands, I’m so glad the Yankees didn’t trade for him. I feel the Mets overpaying him for him in a contract is fine. Just as long as the contract doesn’t go past 10 years. Don’t worry Met’s fan this guy will be re-signing. If not you’ll get draft picks and sign someone else like a Story, Baez, or a Seager. Next time have the player sign the extension before the trade and not risk this happening.
Unless they’ve changed the rules, I don’t think you can have a player sign an extension before the trade…
No you can’t, but you can have an agreement in place to facilitate the trade.
@G Vanlue- having a player sign an extension before a trade is fine especially if the team he is traded from grants him permission to do so.
literally sign an extension? No sir. Negotiate and come to terms, but not sign.
They tried. Walk away. You can always try again next offseason, and his value can literally only go down.
10/325 is a very fair offer from the Mets and shows they are negotiating in good faith. I believe the Mets should stand firm on the offer and if Lindor balks, the Mets should look elsewhere for their SS next off-season.
Lindor isn’t worth Mookie Betts. Maybe around 2/3rd what Mookie got, anything more is an overpay
I’d give him a ton in AAV, but maybe max out at 7 or 8 years. It doesn’t seem like he’s the type of player that would age that well into his late 30’s.
Agreed, I suspect in his later years an inevitable move to third or second when he losses a step. Amazing player, but he’s no Mookie Betts IMO.
Greed, plain and simple. NO player in any sport is “worth” that kind of guaranteed money.
The simple facts are obvious: how many teams can afford it add or are willing to guarantee a contract that size?
Dodgers will extend their own players first. Shortstop is covered.
Yankees? They are already at their max I believe. Shortstop is covered.
Phillies? Not with Realmuto and Harper already guaranteed huge contracts and cutting employee payroll.
Angels? Rendon and Trout signed long term and already cutting corners.
Mets should make their final offer, respecting Lindor’s demands to NOT negotiate after the season starts. Let Lindor PLAY for his next contract. There is a big SS class coming up next year that will be half the price. Add to that Mets’ top prospect Ronnie Mauricio, at the major league minimum, should be about ready.
Then lock up the homegrown Conforto TODAY. That should also pressure the Lindor people, seeing that commitment money going to someone else. That move would also look good in the fans’ eyes and again, pressure Lindor.
Mets are in control of this situation and have nothing to lose. No way they should guarantee Lindor 10 years, especially not back loaded.
Front load it and give him mega millions in incentives that would actually EXCEED his camp’s current demands. 10 years 300 million guaranteed, front loaded, with incentives that would make the contract worth 400 million if they are achieved.
Owners make Billions. Why shouldn’t players get a piece of that?
Because nobody said this is a democracy where the is equal revenue sharing….its the owners game….without owners there is no MLB…..if the players don’t like it, they can go get a real job and settle for the same $ pittance the rest of society does.
If every major leaguer retired today and the teams had to bring in minor leaguers, revenues would plummet. The players are MLB more than the owners are.
The owners are the most replaceble thing in the sport.
no it wouldn’t
I disagree. I can care less who the players are and especially who the owner is. Long as the team is making good decisions and trying to get the best players available to them. I am a Cleveland fan, not only do I not miss Lindor I am glad he is gone. 300 plus million is a bad investment for him. Fans should be more upset over name change if anything.i don’t care about that either. The team with it’s logo, history, memories etc is all that matters. Did all the red Sox fans become dodger fans when Mookie left? If a new league emerged and had better players are yankee fans going to stop being Yankee fans and root for the Ny whatever’s? Ohio State and Alabama lose their best players all the time, fans still come. Better example Tennessee has been a shell of its former self, did they down size their stadium because fans no longer come because they don’t have the elite players anymore? All about the team for me. I can care less about the players. Eliminate all the current players, in a few years there would be new stars and the product would be just as good. Always a constant flow of new talent.
@YourDreamGM: everything you just said applies to the owners too, 10 times over. Very few owners are loved by the fans. Turner and Steinbrenner were exceptions, not the rule.
The owners are billionaires. Not easy to replace. Less billionaires in the world than guys who can hit a curve ball. The sport might take a hit if it needed new players but without the owners it disappears.
Padres 458: “Owners are the most replaceable thing in the sport”
I guess that’s why there are sooooo many then, right? No actually, they’re not. Players do get a piece of the billionaires’ pie as you’re seeing with Lindor. It’s not like he wasn’t just offered 10/$325 MM of a billionaire‘a money!
Rocky7 – agree with you bro, except one piece…what you wrote defines socialism, not democracy.
@bham. I am not the average fan. I root for teams who have decision makers with a similar mind set as myself. Cle Tam Pit. If Cle gave Lindor 385 million I would no longer be a Cle fan. As long as the owner is a decent owner I don’t care who it is. Like someone said on here awhile back, when I spend me $30 or whatever they said on a ticket I don’t care how the owner and players divide it up. I always said most the players would play for a couple hundred thousand. A small percentage could make more being a doctor attorney engineer whatever. Few could play another sport. If the owners want to pay them more than cool. If they want to share everything 50 50 or give the players 80 percent or whatever I am fine with that. If they upset the players and they strike and never come back oh well. In a year there will be new new superstars. In 10 years most the current players will be gone so always new ones coming. I am just saying regardless of who the owner is and who the the players are if you grew up in Boston and was a fan most people will continue to be a fan. No matter whoever bloom puts on the field and how bad you hate bloom you are still a Sox fan. I am sure a few people became dodgers fans or said they are done with the sox, but once people can go to games and the sox are a playoff team fenway will be full.
you think the players could make this money barnstorming across America? Owning a baseball team is not making them rich trust me.
The owners are the ones who take on ALL the liability, same as any business. Arm-chair GMs need to own their own business, through good times and bad, and then make comments about how owners should whimsically spend their money.
If you’re a bad businessman I guess you could lose money owning a team, but you’d have to be really bad.
Owners have had 1 “bad time” in the past 100 years. It’s good to own a monopoly.
look at the profit for a 500 million dollar business. A major league franchise makes FAR less than those businesses.
@bhambrave. Let the players quit the game to become owners, then.
CEO’s know business and money and investing. They have built their portfolios through risk/reward investments. Just because Mr. Smith has money, doesn’t mean Mr. Jones deserves it.
A piece of it? Normal people can’t afford to go now. Do you not understand ticket prices go up when salaries do? Yet you clamor for players getting theirs? I guess you expect the owners should just give their money away…..Such liberal and short sided thinking blows my mind.
You are absolutely right, the Mets have all the leverage here. I would table the talks until the off season and again offer him 325mil for 10, provided he performed to expectations, if not that number gets taken down a bit. The one to take the fall here is Lindor not the Mets, they are in a great posiition and have options to move in another direction. Understand that Cohen can have want free agent he wants. So Lindor I would fire your agent and get one that is able to assess the landscape regarding your free agency because right now he’s leading you down the toilet.
If they aren’t worth it, why do teams keep giving these deals out? They are worth whatever a team is willing to pay. In a billion dollar industry, let the players get their fair share of the money.
Split the years and split the difference:
11/$355M.
$325 million over 10 years for Lindor is bad enough but $385 million over 12 years is looney tunes. The Mets are looking at having 2 of the worst contracts in the league if they give into Lindor’s demands
I think it would be terrible idea for Mets to negotiate against themselves. It’s a fair offer. I understand him wanting to maximize value and bet on himself but the offer is good and Mets should stay put.
Don’t get me wrong. Absolutely loved him in Cleveland. Also had no problems with him being traded. Remember this is also a guy who admitted to not trying last year and taking a nap during Game 7 of the World Series. He may have a big smile, but, sometimes, you have to question his heart. At this point, I think it’s difficult making a long-term commitment and huge investment in him.
The nap thing is definitely weird.
Yeah, as a Met fan I pray they milk him for this season, take the comp pick, and sign a guy like Seager or story instead … they still got Carraaco out of the deal, who was a bigger need for them anyway
yup – the deal was excelent if the pitching works out
This is how I see it too. Rosario is negative value and I’m glad he’s gone; Gimenez might stick as a plus def, avg bat at ss if his 2020 was real, but still some risk there; two milbers are pretty good flyers, but still low level flyers.
Lock him up to 10 years $340M with 2 club options for $20M in year 11 and 12. Add in incentives for winning MVP or batting title. Get it done!
He’s going to ask for a ton right now because why wouldn’t he? He wants to test FA and bet on himself anyway. Why not aim high? The Mets will offer 325 or higher again next offseason. No harm in trying to get more for yourself now. I firmly believe he’ll be a Met in the 340ish range, but only after going to FA next offseason.
agreed
Agreed… Mets fans have to get used to having an owner now who will pay over value for a guy he wants.. no need to go beyond 10/325 now… you could Seager or story (who are better by numbers) for same, potentially less for story.. and if Lindor excels this year, just up it after the season to 11/350 or something in that range… the Mets are now actually a team that can outbid all others if they want.. question is, do they want to… I wouldn’t for Lindor but many would
Hey, Cohen set his limits on other players like Bauer. He won’t be played. Lindor has not yet played a regular season game for the Mets. HIS camp has set a deadline, so it’s HIS risk. If he has another down year or gets hurt, that’s going to cost him tens of millions of dollars. Cohen needs to post a “final offer, take it or leave it.”
Jim Stem i agree!! Cohen isnt worth 15 billion because he is stupid!! take it or leave it Lindor!! i dont even want him on the team now
“The Mets will offer 325 or higher again next offseason.”
Unless he plays great this season, I actually think they won’t. Presumably, the deal would cover this current season, no? So after the year, he’d have 9 years left on it.
imo, he’s doing himself a massive disservice in not taking this deal. Unless he plays off the charts this year, I cannot imagine him getting a better offer. Plus the Mets are going to have to worry about signing Stroman, Thor, and Conforto this offseason. There’s only so much money Cohen will spend.
That is a generous offer from the Mets, if he leaves it on the table he will not get anything close to that in free agency. Almost all the large market teams have either an elite SS or other players on extreme contracts, so the only large market team willing to spend 300plus for Lindor are the Mets. This to me clearly qualifies as legal extortion on the part of Liindor and his agent. If I were the Mets I would table the talks until the off season and then let Lindor come crawling back to me for the 325mil The Mets have an abundance of young SS prospects, particularly one who is clearly knocking on the door (Mauricio.) Sandy needs to draw a line and not pass it, simple as that. The Mets are solid and won’t miss a beat without Lindor.
Mauricio?? No. Actually, they have Luis Guillermo.
@mrbrklyn. Guillermo is perfect for his infield versatility and defense, not his bat. It’s a good contact bat which, again, is perfect for the fill in role he will play. But 600 at bats of Guillorme will never be considered major league average.
Ronnie Mauricio is the future shortstop currently in the Mets’ system. He’s probably less than 2 years away if he continues to progress and mature. Big kid, quick swing, could develop into a run producer whose glove is probably already there. Reminded me of Didi Gregorius.
Lindor could sit out the whole year and the Mets would still win the east. I’m not worried about our future.
@MetsFan22 That’s ridiculous. The Mets may not even win with Lindor. Without him, they definitely won’t. I’m with you that the Mets are a good team even without Lindor, but let’s not be silly here. It’s a tough division. Losing Lindor’s defense would crush the Mets, let alone his bat.
Take Lindor off the Mets and they still have the best lineup. In the east
@MetsFan22 I debate that. I don’t even think they have the best lineup with Lindor. Some question marks for sure. Will they make up for Cano’s amazing 2020 production? Does Alonso return to 2019 form? Can guys like Smith and Conforto live up to the level of production they had in 2020? Will the Mets continue to struggle with RISP? I think the Mets will be okay in most of these areas, but somethings will go wrong. I look at the Phillies and Braves lineups and I have a hard time saying the Mets lineup is definitely better than either. I do think the Mets have a better overall team than the Phillies for sure, just not necessarily the lineup; especially without Lindor.
@von. I think giving the Mets hitters all “average”, healthy seasons, they may have the best lineup (and deepest) in recent memory.
I think the X factor is the mental makeup of this squad, especially the homegrown players. They all seem level headed, focused, hard working and “team first” guys. They have all endured tough patches and survived, which I think is the biggest plus going forward.
A healthy pitching staff (which is never assumed in NY) will carry this offense. We don’t need a contract distraction from Lindor. Let him prove he can put this team over the top, THEN pay him.
I’d like to see Conforto locked up for one main reason – he will over effort himself. What I mean is, he’ll run through a wall or dive on plays when he should pull up. A healthy Conforto on the field for 150 games makes the outfield and lineup mesh. Love this kid.
JD Davis looks every bit the starting third basemen. I’ve been staying for 2 years that he just needed the reps at his natural position that he hasn’t had since 2018 when he was stuck in Houston’s depth chart. He has made the routine plays, has a very strong, accurate arm, has shown flashes of very quick reactions and very good glove. The only thing I haven’t seen yet is how he handles coming in on the ball. Left and right, he’s liked great.
McNeil looks great and terrible at 2b. He’s got the hands and instincts to play there, but like Davis, just needs the reps and focus on that position. McNeil will hit, the question is whether he produces better scoring runs or driving them in?
Pete is gonna mash. As long as he doesn’t get pull happy or hit in the face, he’ll put up .260/35/115/.975 ops in that lineup.
McCann has a solid hitting approach, very similar to Ramos. The question here is will he play more than 100 games?
Continuing
Dom Smith looks like the real deal and might be in for a scary good season. He hits line drives with lift/carry from foul line to foul line and rarely expands the strike zone. In this lineup, .305/28/105/.900 looks average.
Nimmo? I still don’t like him leading off. I don’t feel he is a run producer and leadoff probably has more 2 out rbi opportunities after the 1st inning than any other spot. I prefer McNeil at leadoff due to his run driving in hitting approach.
Davis barrels up the ball hard more often than any one else on the team, especially with men in scoring position. Prediction: .275/22/90.
In this lineup, where is the weak link? Pillar fills in the outfield with injuries. Guillorme on the infield, who could hit an honest .310 with regular at bats. Villar can fill in and out for weeks at a clip. Same with Almora.
Pitchers like throwing to Nido, so our back up catcher is the only real question mark with the bat. Who, by the way, won a minor league batting title, so it’s not like he doesn’t know which end on which to put the pine tar.
LOL
I have the Mets finishing 4th in the division.
The most overrated team in MLB….by far.
Phillies win the NLE. Stop reading the gossip sports pages and the media projections. Look at some Phillie ST games. Gerardi has them playing solid, fundamental, winning team baseball.
NL East looks like a three team race to me (Braves, Nats and Mets). Phillies are gonna be non contenders. That’s my prediction.
@ Cosmo2;
I understand. That’s the common perception.
By mid-summer the perception will change.
Heh, that’s why they play the season, I guess.
lolk
LOL l
He’s baaaaack!
Condescending as ever. As if you’re opinion that the Phillies will win the East is somehow better than anyone else’s. The team had a world class terrible pen last year. So I guess that can’t get any worse.
I’ll take a pass on meaningless ST games though. That’s not a very good barometer for anything. This division is wide open but I doubt the Phillies have the pitching to pull it off. Offense has clear holes in it too. Especially if Cutch shows his age.
Phillies are the most expensive “meh” team in baseball if you wanted my opinion. There’s not a lot of help coming up in the farm either. Though if Cutch, Segura, and DD all hit—there’s nothing wrong w the lineup. I’m just not particularly high on any of those 3 offensively at this point.
@Samuel (Juan?). I think the Phillies need to finish over .500 for a change before they should be predicted to win the division. How long has it been since they finished with 82 or more wins?
Nola, Wheeler (ex Mets, you’re welcome for the two years of rehab we paid for, btw), and Eflin and two reclamation projects in a hitters’ park. Then the bullpen. Yes, it’s better with Bradley, but what DEPTH do they have anywhere beyond the starting 20 or so? Bohn will have his cold streaks. I still have no idea why any team EVER throws Harper a pitch on the inner half, Segura has been trending down for three years. Hoskins had a good 60 game season, but likely reverts back to his .230/25/80 with 100 too many walks. Cutch, for the first time in his career missed significant time. It doesn’t get easier as you get older.
Girardi will get more out of this squad than Kapler, but I see them topping out at maybe 85 wins, and that’s only if they beat up on the Marlins. And I don’t think ANYone is beating up the Marlins pitching staff which, honestly, I think is better than Phillies’, man to man. The Phil’s bullpen has to win the games, and I just don’t see that happening.
Hardcore delusion.
MetsFan22 is probably the biggest homer on MLBTR. I’m not saying that’s bad, it just is.
If Lindor sat the whole year they’d largely be the same club that didn’t win tbe East last year. What are you basing your theory on besides fandom?
@Appalachian_Outlaw- I got news for you, even if Lindor is the MVP of the National League this season, the Braves are still likely winning the division. Mets will be good. But Braves are better right now.
Idk what your talking about… the whole pitching staff is different.
@MetsFan22- the Mets might have better pitching. I definitely feel the Braves offense is better. I love Acuna. I would trade Judge for him straight up right now. Atlanta would never do it though unfortunately. Lol. Albies is a beast also. Not trading Gleyber for him.
better pitching and improved ss and 2nd base
@mrbrklyn Definitely improved SS and 2nd base defensively, but Cano (and his steroids) put up some impressive 2020 stats with the bat.
Absolutely, the Mets are in a great position to excel even without Lindor. So I’m not too concerned about Lindor leaving. Fact is I would hope that Sandy does not give in to his ridiculous demands. Table the talks and lets move on from Lindor, let him have his freedom and we go in a different direction. F.ck him and his agent.
Just when you think Metsfan22 can’t possibly top himself in the idiotic comment category he manages to break the glass ceiling. A true pioneer…
12 years is fine, just pay him an oversized salary in 2022 and 2023 when Cano has you over the luxury tax anyway then lower the backend
Aav is all that matters for luxury tax
I wish there had been a poll like the last post about this. I’m curious how many have changed their minds. Judging from the comments though, I’m guessing a significant shift to no.
I still think it gets done. If the mets were stupid enough to offer him 325 they are stupid enough to offer a lil bit more.
Haha Dream GM so true !!!
Im a big Lindor fan and I think this is all crazy….And I mean crazy crazy crazy crazy!!!
Who the hell do they think they are competing with next year?? The Yanks Dodgers Red Sox are out-
Their whole Division will be out, tho Mia should be interested
No Nl Central team , I could maybe see SF as the only comp but I dont see Z going crazy crazy…Dont see an AL team really willing and able…..
I am a fan of boneheads so if he doesn’t sign I hope he has a weak season and fails to sign for over 300 next year. He will probably be great and get 400 million lol.
Im in the same boat , would be awesome to see him stink it up and lose over 100,ill!!
Maybe, just maybe, the dude doesn’t want to be a met and through out some giant number that he knew they’d never take. Lindor is a yankee next year.
That’s what I’m wondering. The AAV is probably in line for the caliber of player he is, but 12 years is a ridiculous ask. Thirty+ million for a 39 year old SS by the end of the deal is franchise crippling.
#Appalachian_Outlaw Spot On Just ask the Angels about Pujols
Selfish. He, nor any player, is worth 385 mil.. Fact.
Glad the Tribe traded him, he’s a great player no doubt but definitely not worth $385M!
There’s no crying in baseball but there definitely is greed!
@TribeAllTheTime- I agree with you 100%. Let me ask you something though. Is Lindor worth $340 million for 10 years? @hockeyjohn- please help me out here. You would definitely know. $34 million annually doesn’t seem like much of an overpay to me. The Mets can burp that, having Steve Cohen as owner. The Indians we’re definitely smart to trade this guy. The handwriting was on the wall. They did the right thing.
@Yankee 4 Life: NO, he isn’t it, nobody is! His days were numbered in Cleveland and we all knew he would be demanding big bucks to stay with the Tribe.
Good luck to the Mets, they should stay put with their offer.
And the Indians will miss the playoffs in 2021
With or without Lindor they will miss the playoffs. They made them last year despite Lindor, not because of him. He was terrible.
Tribe, Cohen isnt stupid and Lindor is a greedy pr**k….i would pull the 325 million off the table and take the draft pick. smh
I’m trying to find the usual Mets fan comment that a Mets free-agent-to-be will sign because he loves NY. I can’t find it for Lindor or Conforto. Did something change in Metsland?
It doesn’t matter if they leave or stay.. the Mets will fill the spots with players similar level to them. Slightly worse or slightly better. I’m so sorry that the marlins went thru this long rebuild just to be blocked by the Mets and Braves for the next 5-7 years.
@MetsFan22- yeah, but just what you want to see. You trade all those prospects for him to watch him leave? Smh. See why the Mets should of signed him to an extension before the trade? I’m just glad the Yankees didn’t trade for this guy, with his really high contract demands. He’s out of him mind asking for 12 years in a league with no DH. Smh. 10 years max.
It’s not the best news that he wants that money. But Cohen is trying . The deal he have Lindor is plenty good enough
You trade all those prospects – what prospects? they traded a crap player in Rosario and ONE prospect, a good one, for Carasco and a year of Lindor with some exclussive window to see if you can sign him. If he walks, he walks, There is always another deal. There is no reason to pay Lindor Stanton like money
Didn’t really give up too much in prospects for Lindor. If he walks, it was still a good deal. No real pressure to re-sign him now.
…you can’t sign a player to an extension before he’s under contract…and it wouldn’t have changed the circumstances regardless…
@MetsFan22
It could be worse. We could be one of those teams trying to win a championship for 34 years and counting.
Is that 5 to 7 years prediction like your prediction that the Marlins, even in 60 games, would finish 15 games out of fourth place; 25 out first? Or is it like that every Mets OH is better than Marcel Ozuna? Maybe it’s like that Mets are as good as the Dodgers stuff and those 95 to 102 wins you said the Mets will get this year.
MetsFan22
I’m so sorry that the marlins went thru this long rebuild just to be blocked by the Mets and Braves for the next 5-7 years.
==============================================================
And the Marlins fans are sorry that you had to finish last last year, while they went to the NLDS.
#MarlinsFanBase
Marlins are a good young club that are going to surprise people again this year.
I am a Mets fan; why do you waste your time or care about what Metsland says or does? Aren’t the Marlins enough to keep you occupied? You need a hobby dude.
#mrbrklyn you are spot on! Besides my mother was born in Brooklyn
I love baseball and I love comedy. The Mets fall into both categories.
This dude is much closer to Alex Bregman than Mike Trout or Mookie Betts. He’s a very good player but at some point when do you say a guy is overvalued? Because 385 is definitely that point. Enjoy him for a year and try again this offseason. If somebody else wants to blow their budget on him—let them and go after 1 of the other top SS’s out there.
Alex Bergman is more like Trout than Lindor.
I look forward to @MetsFan22’s comment about this.
They could keep it at 10/325 and give him an opt out after two years and pray he takes it.. then go after trea turner
have youy seen turners feilding stats?
shfghs jjsll felding skaats!
They all did it to themselves owners and players. First one to blink loses.
How much money do you need; I know what an eye roll type question. If you want to be there long term; both camps need to compromise on a lower AAV and come to 11 years with a vesting option for a 12th.
I love how people complain that he isn’t worth it whenever a player signs or demands a big contract. He is worth it if he can get someone to pay it. He will get what the market will bear and if that is 12/$385 then so be it. If it is something else, then so be it.
And don’t kid yourself that if players somehow made a lot less money that tickets and concessions would be a whole lot cheaper. Players “greed’ pales in comparison to owners greed. They charge what they do because enough people will pay those prices to make it extremely profitable to them. And if having Lindor on your team helps them win and get more fans in the stands, then the contract will be worth it from the owners perspective.
I think this is just an extreme example because $385M would be the most guaranteed for 1 extension. Saying he should not demand the most ever is fair.
If he gets it this winter, good for him. I just really don;t see it. I do see him matching the 10/325 from the Mets or another team. So, I don’t think he’ll end up leaving money on the table.
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It is not a real market. This is not potatoes.
It’s stories like this that make me laugh at the “I can’t believe you side with billionaire owners” crowd. The players are every bit as greedy. That’s okay, by the way. Just don’t try to act like the players are the heroes playing for the love of the game.
If Lindor want to be a part of something special sign the 10/325. The Mets did the right think. If he doesn’t sign we’ll get someone else and it’ll be his fault.
@MetsFan22- I would offer $20-30 million more for 10 years. Then the Mets gave it their best shot. If that doesn’t work then just sign Story, Baez, or Seager as a free agent next season. Nothing to lose really. You’re right this would be Lindor’s fault for not getting this done. At worst if the Mets don’t win the NL East with Lindor you’re probably getting at least a wild card this year anyway. We’ll see.
As if playing for other teams isn’t something special. Lol The arrogance.
@VonPurpleHayes- it really depends what other teams your talking about? There are only a few teams worth playing for at this point. Lol.
One would have to question Lindor’s judgment if he rejects 10/325 saying he should get more than Betts. Betts is a far better player, better numbers and WS champion and MVP Betts is a different player with few peers. Lindor is one of many decent shortstops, personally 10/325 is a great overpayment for his services. If he does not sign I predict he loses money when he eventually does sign as FA.
@James Dogg- I definitely disagree with you. He is definitely the best shortstop in the game, maybe behind Tatis. If I’m Steve Cohen I’m definitely paying him at least $340-350 million dollars for the next 10 years. Nothing more and nothing less. No reason why Lindor can’t be a star here in NY for the Mets. I believe he is better then Story and Baez. I think it’s a wash between Frankie and Seager. Seager is a better hitter while Lindor is a better fielder, better runner, and he obviously switch hits. Mets should get this deal done.
— I believe he is better then Story and Baez.– No he isn’t. Even a causaul look one can see that.. Lindor is down near the 18th best SS in baseball last year
baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2020.shtml
Story? Okay, definite argument. But Baez? Uh, no way…. his offense is anemic.
Skipping back to 2019 for bigger sample. The NY Mets SS had more assists and DPs than Cleveland and fielding was 10% lower over all. NY Mets SS was 1.5 WAR Lower than Cleveland. So how many FA pitchers should the Mets pass on over the next ten years for that level of improvement? 10/325 is a bad contract for this SS. Few contracts that large do not hindered efforts in future attempts to improve team. At “leg” positions it happens quickly. Reyes, Cano, Damon. If he says no the Mets future is better Their 2022 might feel bad but that is short sighted
Using 2019 NYMets from SS had 1.5 lower WAR than Cleveland and got more DPs and assists while fielding 0.010% lower. 10/325 for that level of improvement is foolish. Large Ks for “leg” players often become problems Cano, Reyes, Damon. It would be a mistake in 3 years.
Lindor isn’t that great of a fielder. He’s more good than amazing
Seager had a 152 OPS+. Lindor had a 102 last year. That means Seager was 50% better hitter than Lindor. Seager is an ultra elite bat. Lindor is a great glove. They are not equals. And the bat will age better than the glove
Juan Soto had a 218 OPS+ last year. Is he worth $500 million? Is he 89% better than Seager whose lifetime OPS+ is 129? Or is he just 66% better, as he was last year?
What does Soto have anything to do with this, other than you’re trying to come at me Hudson?
You are using one season to try to justify Seager’s value. And a 60 game season at that. I am just trying to show you how foolish that is. His lifetime OPS+ is 129. That is his value.
Relax Lurking. You aren’t being hunted.
Also, Mookie Betts has a lifetime OPS+ of 135. Are you saying that Seager is a lot better than Mookie? +17 in OPS+ better? If he is I guess that makes him worth $400+ million this offseason. Anyone think he will get that?
Oh Hudson. Why are you such a tool? Why do you ONLY have straw man arguments?
Why do you think comparing Seager to Mookie makes you look good or me look bad? You’re the idiot pulling comps out of nothing just to say HA GOT YA!
Mookie is one of the best defensive RF’ers in the last 3 decades. In addition he’s top 10% at his position offensively
Lindor is not on that level on defense and is not on that level offensively. Seager may have that good of a bat, one of the best at his position for the last 3 decades, but he’s just average in the field. No, Seager is not getting 400M. I NEVER said anything along those lines. In fact, I have said multiple times Seager won’t even hit 325 imo
I don’t give a f* ck about you Lurking. You use Seager’s numbers from a 60 game season to try to show how much better he is than other SS. I would call out ANYONE who did that! You just happen to be the guy who keeps using stupid arguments.
Well it’s really 2019 leading NL in doubles even tho he was slicing the ball PLUS ST 2.0 PLUS all of regular year 2020 PLUS the playoffs where he was the MVP twice(remember that?) PLUS this years ST. He’s only leading the majors in HR in spring going into the year
But yeah buddy. I’m the one between us that makes things up to please their opinion. I always have numbers. Usually to prove your baseless comment wrong wrong. You usually have nothing but that opinion
He gave you a out Cohen. Fans seen you made a great offer. Lindor looks like the bad guy. 10 325 is a horrible contract. Be thankful Lindor rejected it and walk away with a sigh of relief and a smile.
at least no one can complain if Cohen starts spending above the luxury tax. he was denied on two very good offers to Bauer and Lindor.
I may be in the minority but I’m already tired of Cohen’s constant tweeting
Twitter is a cesspit, with or without Cohen.
#driftcat28
If you don’t like Cohen’s tweets don’t read them?
Why are you tired?
You have no Choice in your life?
Its just baseball; I am sure Cohen is not thinking about you today so why waste your time and energy. Life is too short; Enjoy!
I agree however with VonPurpleHayes who’s comment is constructive in that stop and make the Mets good.
I’ve never tweeted or read a tweet in my life and I’m tired of Cohen’s tweeting already too. I read about them in other articles, I hear about it on the radio, I watch them talk about it on TV. What do you suppose I do?
Rant much?
Why wouldn’t Lindor wait and go to free agency, his value can only go up. There also will be a new CBA next year. Lindor may have already made his mind up to go to free agency. He might want to go to a different team, and he hasn’t played in NY yet. Most of the top teams could be looking for these SS next year.,
with the number of potential shortstops next year in free agency, his value could actually go down. 10/325 is probably more than most would have projected.
Slider 32- Precisely, sir. His value doesn’t go down if he’s the top SS in the game, which he and his agent believe he is without question. Naturally, they believe he will be the premier player for the offseason, the golden ticket for Wonka Land, so to speak.
Every agent tries to sell his player as the best.
If Lindor puts up .260/20/75 with 90 runs, what’s he worth then? That’s two years removed from a standout season. What if he gets hurt? Where does a 35 year old Lindor lineup with 4 more years and a no trade clause? Not many teams win with 35 year old aging shortstops!
Hey, if he goes .300/30/100 with 125 runs, the Mets will probably be set up for a big post season run. Honestly, the Astros, Rockies and Dodgers extend their players, who’s left? Why let Seager walk to get Lindor? I think Rockies pass on Story, but trade him to someone like the Reds. They won’t sign him.
His value can absolutely go down. He’ll be one more year removed from the 7 WAR season so many foolishly judge his value upon. Another down year like ‘20 and his value certainly drops from what he’s asking for now.
Which is why I said according to Lindor and his agent. Remember to look at it from their perspectives and with the normal, understandable ego of a good MLB player.
Plus, many analysts, managers, and GMs value Lindor the same way. At some point, that perception becomes reality despite contradicting statistics.
@Cosmo2, This is why, despite some Mets fans’ understandable frustration, I think the Mets are in the better position here. Who cares if he asked for 385? That means he’ll have to have a really good year this year in order to get what he wants, or more specifically, to get more than what the Mets already offered. If he has a monster 2021, great for the Mets and they can consider upping the years on the offer. If he has a bad 2021, Mets can possibly get him for less than the current offer. I don’t see any of this as being bad for the Mets. The guy is asking for outrageous money now because he wants to be a FA anyway. So why not ask for the moon? Maybe you’ll get a crazy offer. Otherwise you’ll get to accomplish your goal of testing FA.
Lindor is a great player, but he might overplay his hand. He didn’t have a good 2020, so if he doesn’t sign he is betting his 2021 will be amazing. The Mets probably should wait because if he wants top dollar now, even if he has an amazing 2021 they might not have to pay more than what he is already asking.
I really hope the Mets give in and go 12/$385M
I really hope as a Mets fan they do not go in on 12/$385M!
Like he is really going to get more than that in FA?
So wait; if 10 years $325 million is not enough so be it let him walk.
Other than DeGrom the whole rotation is going to have to be revamped; use the money for that!
Lindor definitely signing with the Mets. If he doesn’t then the Mets should get Story or someone else. The Mets in the driver’s seat. Lindor has zero leverage.
That’s because you haven’t been exposed to the real Lindor the past six years.
I’m a Braves fan, so yeah, I hope they give in.
I could see some middle ground here. Go to 11 years for 350 with the 11th year a team option with a 10 million buy out. The team is determining if he is a 22.5 million dollar player in his 38 year season. If he is they pick up option if not pay him the 10 million and it’s over
I still don’t know why Mets didn’t get Springer. The league has very few teams that can afford the top shortstops. Dodgers bring back Seager, Yankees have Torres, Boston has Bogarts. Do the Rangers spend big for Story like they did for ARod? 5-6 Top free agent shortstops are available and possibly only 2-3 of them top 300 Million.
Tell Francisco Lindor to take a hike with his outrageously exorbitant contract extension request for $385 million dollars for 12 years.
Even though he is an excellent baseball player, he is not worth that amount of money. The largest salary ever paid to a Mets player was $132 million over eight (8) seasons for David Wright.
Now this is a smart Mets fan ^^^^^.
LOL Mets Gimenez is looking a whole lot better right now. Mets created this nightmare now they have to live with this either way.
trying to re-sign a star player isn’t a nightmare. it’s baseball. grow up.
How is any of this a nightmare? If he is motivated by money and plays well for them this year, helps them win then walks away, I’m cool with that. The Mets don’t seem to have given up too much for him. There will be plenty of other well qualified SS available next offseason. Most of which will demand less than Lindor. That’s far from a bad spot to be in if you are the Mets.
I’d go 8/$256m. That would give him an AAV of $32m which is basically what we’re talking about with the 10 & 12 year deals. Anything more than 8 years should be off the table. You don’t have to look any further than the Pujols and Cano contracts to see how an aging player on a long-term deal can hamstring an organization.
Pay him top dollar for his prime years and then move on.
I’d imagine this is getting sickening for the fans who spend good money following the MLB. Owners are making billions, players are making hundreds of millions, middle class families grind it out to take their kids to the game…this all sounds right to y’all?
I mean personally I spend virtually nothing following the Yankees. I watch them on TV when they are on or listen to them on the radio. I don’t buy any merchandise and I usually go to a game or two a year but one of those games is always in a different city (little tradition with my pops) and don’t go otherwise unless some tickets get thrown my way and I’m free.
So I have to ask…where is the money coming from that this amount of money is being thrown around?
1- Awesome tradition – keep that up, time is short
2- TV deals, others but a lot of merchandise, ticket sales & in-stadium purchases comprise a good chunk of their budget, and they also are businesses (other than just baseball).
In fact pre-Covid, while reporting on how baseball needs to change because of the youth movement toward more active sports, or whatever, they concomitantly reported that MLB was at its highest revenues ever!
You know there has to be great profit because retired millionaire players are desperately trying to get into ownership, and the system is highly regulated by current owners (through participatory voting into the club).
I compare baseball games to Broadway shows. Top drawer entertainment and a high price. Obviously different audiences but think of taking your family to the stadium once a year like going to a Broadway show once a year. Bear in mind there are literally millions of people who want to do that for their family even once a year and it all adds up. Obviously baseball’s numbers are much higher, it’s not like 50,000 people are watching The Lion King on a Friday night, but it’s the cumulative effect that is similar.
Yes, exactly. Great analogy. And I’m large cities, it only takes a different family to go a few times each year.
Then with the Yankees, for example, that make the playoffs each year? That drives revenues way up during those postseason periods. That goes for any team obviously, but the bigger the city, generally the higher the multiplier.
The difference is when one’s “favorite”player(s) doesn’t perform or play, do you ask for a refund because they didn’t provide the entertainment promised?
glooney1:
No, of course not. Just like going to a Broadway show when the star is sick, or whatever, and you get the understudy. You don’t get a refund for that, why would you get one for paying to see, say, an Angels game, and Trout didn’t play.
If they wan’t to sign him for 385 go ahead however hard pass for me if i was the owner.. The 330 for 10 was great. This isn’t Fifa. Also, next year’s shortstop market is a bit deep – Javier Báez, Carlos Correa, Corey Seager, Trevor Story, Andrelton Simmons, Brandon Crawford.
So classy of this owner to let this play out in public over Twitter. I’m sure Lindor really appreciates it.
Cohen is a garbage person. But we all knew that before he became owner, so none of this should surprise anyone.
The agents do the same thing when it’s to their advantage. They have no scruples. And as far as Cohen being a garbage person? Maybe so, I don’t know him personally, but most Mets fans were okay with that when they though he was going to come in and spend his billions. Understandable, I guess.
Oh yeah, it’d be way more classy to give the information to reporters so they could write a story about the same thing.
They offered 10/285, then upped it to 10/325 when he wasn’t happy
He responded demanding 12/385, an additional 60 million to cover his age 38 and 39 seasons
They released the info because they are not the reason he isn’t going to sign. They’ve already offered more than he’s worth. He is not signing because he is being unrealistic with his demands, pure and simple. Instead he will be 1 of 6 elite SS on the 2022 FA market, with how many teams really with a need and flexibility to sign 8-10 years and upwards of 250 million? Maybe 2?
He’ll still get paid. Otherwise the Mets wouldn’t have offered him $325m when they were the only ones allowed to negotiate with him.
Say the Dodgers resign Seager and the Mets sign Story
Who will then bid Lindor up to his 10/325?
There would still be Baez, Correa and Semien available at much less while Lindor is trying to find someone to give into his 325+ demands.
I’m not sure he will get even the initial 10/285 on the market. Why would the few teams capable do that when they may be able to get one of the others for 5/150 and have the remaining 175 he wants to spend elsewhere on the field?
@darkstar61 If he won’t even get 10/$285m as a FA then offering him 10/$325m in an extension was comically stupid of NYM.
Markets rise when demand exceeds supply, and fall when supply exceeds demand. The SS supply will exceed demand next offseason. It means all will get on the lower side of their wants, and one or two will likely get no where near their wishes
Right now it’s still unknown which guys will see the biggest market hits. Lindor at around 10/300 is a good estimate, and that is what the Mets are seemingly willing to do – plus some added to meet his demands which they can perceive as to save some of the constant negative press they will face if they dont extend him after the other market failures they had
@darkstar61..
“Markets rise when demand exceeds supply, and fall when supply exceeds demand.”
Do not cite the deep magic to me, witch! I was there when it was written.
If Lindor was really about to get hosed on the open market as you say, the Mets would not feel the need to offer him $325m guaranteed when he’s still a year out from the open market and hasn’t played in a single regular season game for them. And you can save your prognostication about them knowingly overpaying just to get the media off their back. No (good) GM pays attention to what the media says.
Jim. Why do you insist on pretending owners never make dumb decisions that overrule intelligent baseball moves? Chris Davis dude
Cohen is A BRAND NEW owner with HUGE money. He’s prime time to get taken to school by a good agent. Just because he went to 325 doesn’t mean anyone else is there for Lindor right now. He would need a massive 2021 to get that much. Why? Because he’d have to force his way into either the Yankees or dodgers plans, and make them pivot from what seems like a clear “likely” plan. I’ll be pretty surprised if Philly pulls out another 300M+ offer, but they’re probably the better bet than either NYY or LA. But Lindor is just not 100M+ better than Seager or even Story or Correa. Teams will have options. Lots
If he repeats his 2020. Phew. He may lose 75M or more
@Lurking so basically, you are trying to argue that the Mets will make a move that they know is stupid
In my opinion, yes they overpaid to please the media pressure. He came in promising big bucks to flow, then lost out on Springer+Bauer+ JTR. So he trades for Lindor when his FO proclaimed they didn’t want to trade talent… but that’s still not big bucks. He raised his offer 3x and beat Tatis. Bidding against himself. Yes. It’s a dumb move, to me. I don’t understand how you refuse to acknowledge owners make bad decisions when under pressure to win
It’s the classic “show the fans we tried and make the player the bad guy” PR situation
Both sides do it. Agents and teams. But it’s classic
Seems like the Mets should have brainstormed before negotiations started. Of course, things change but you would think the FO would pretty much know their options going in.
They knew the situation
Lindor is likely a 10/285 player. That is what they offered
He wanted more, so they went as high as 10/325
If he doesnt sign, there are 6 elite SS going to be a FA in 2022. There are not 6 teams to meet their 8-10 year, 250+ million demands though.
He is a fool to take his chances in that situation, and should clearly take the already over value offer they made him. If Dodgers resign Seager and Mets sign Story, who is going to give Lindor his 300+ over 10+ years? What teams have a whole at SS and can add an AAV over 30m for 10+ years?
“It was a great offer, a beautiful offer. It was YUGE!”
Cohen certainly does strike a familiar tone, doesn’t he?
It ain’t happening. SAC should really get back off Twitter.
They don’t need to “brainstorm” to get him signed. They need to just offer him what he wants. It’s the same as the White Sox whining that Manny Machado wouldn’t take their “creative” offer. He didn’t want a “creative” offer. He wanted one with the most guaranteed money and the White Sox weren’t offering that.
Lindor, Story, Seager, Baez, Correa, Semien
Say, Seager to Dodgers, Story to Mets. Where do the others even go? Who is going to offer Lindor 12/385 out of the remaining clubs?
Not sure what that has to do with my comment
That is the extent of their brainstorming
There are 6 elite SS on the market this upcoming off-season if Lindor doesn’t sign. Try to figure out their landing spots on 8+ year, 250+ million contracts. Supply exceeds demand. The Mets “brainstorming” is wondering how much money his refusing to take the contract will save them
They know they will save money if he doesn’t take it, so there is no reason to increase their offer even more than the 40 million they have already increased it
@darkstar61 answer this question if he is about to get hosed in FA why did they offer him all that money now before he has played in a single game for them and when there is no one else bidding on him?
There are 4 elite SS this year. The other 2 are far, far below.
I have answered that question twice for you already.
“There are 4 elite SS this year. The other 2 are far, far below.”
This statement is disproven by the difficulty figuring out which 2 you think don’t match up.
Semien and Story have about the same WAR as Lindor the last 3 seasons
Baez was averaging 5 fWAR a year in 2018-19. That is what Lindor produces on average
Correa has faced injuries. When healthy he is just as productive (averaging a higher WAR/650) and we don’t know for sure which of Correa or Lindor will be healthier moving forward. Lindor may be a safer bet, but if that bet were in the 100+ million dollar range? There is also the question if Correa being fully healthy improves his productivity greatly too.
Seager is more question. He posted better than Lindor numbers 2016-17, but needed TJ in 2018. Since then he’s had just his post TJ year and the odd 2020 everyone faced. He could be the best of the bunch, or he may be the worst now. Hard to say for sure
Lifetime OPS+
Seager-129
Correa-126
Lindor-117
Story-114
Baez-102
Semien-105
By these numbers we have 2 great SS, 2 plus SS and 2 average SS. Looks like we were both wrong.
Who cares about lifetime ops+? Some guys are part timers when they start, some guys take a year or two to adjust. Some come up late, some early. Plus it counts seasons so long ago that they have little to no barring on current production. And OPS only counts part of their game anyway.
2018-2020 bWAR/650 PA:
6.6 – Story
6.4 – Baez
5.5 – Correa
5.3 – Semien
5.2 – Lindor
4.1 – Seager (had TJ)
Based of WAR per playing time, Lindor is at the bottom of the list – only better than the guy who had TJ in 2018, so we’re not really sure what any of his 3 seasons WAR would have been without it or COVID
And lifetime WAR per 650-AB
Correa-7.70
Story-6.43
Lindor-,5.77
Seager-5.58
Baez-4.89
Semien-4.36
Baez and Semien still clearly behind. We can do this all day. But I am guessing that a great majority of people on here would not place Baez or Semien decidedly behind the others.
Agqin, who cares about lifetime WAR? Suffers the same exact problems lifetime ops+ does
The last 3 seasons are most indicative of their current ability levels. Over those 3 seasons, when factoring for playing time, we have 6 “elite” SS on the market in the offseason …as I had said (“elite” because that’s what everyone calls the group)
Any team getting any of the 6 should probably expect production around the value of the other 5. They are rather interchangeable. Some have different strengths than others, but in the end of the day their WAR/650 isn’t really that different over the last 3 seasons (Story and Baez being slight exceptions as they were fairly better, but it could be a blip)
So if we only look at the EXACT stat you want us to look at, and only the time period you tell us to look at…then you are right? Imagine that!!!
Many of the other stats disagree with you. And like I said, most people here would disagree that Semien and Baez are even in the same class. But you be you.
Look, you keep going right back to “lifetime” for everything and ending up with the same two people at the bottom regardless what you’re looking at?
Know why?
Because those two were part timers their first 2 seasons, while everyone else got a full rookie season and beyond
Semien and Baez both played about 75 games COMBINED their first two seasons. Everyone else got 75+ games their first and a full second (well, Seager had a 20ish game cup of coffee then was fulltime) So those two guys are being hurt by being part timers for 2 years while everyone else is benefiting from coming into the league and getting at least half the playing time. Means you’re comparing 4 Apples to 2 Oranges then pointing to the 2 Oranges looking different as proof of what you’re desperately wanting to be the case. Of course they would!
3 years is the generic time frame most everyone uses to determine ability. With the exception of Seager because of the TJ, they had in the ballpark of eachother playing time over those 3 seasons. I’m just going the most basic and even playing field we have to compare in
2018-2020 bWAR/650 PA:
6.6 – Story
6.4 – Baez
5.5 – Correa
5.3 – Semien
5.2 – Lindor
4.1 – Seager (had 2018 TJ)
The 6 players current ability level being shown the last 3 seasons is just not that different from eachother (with some leeway for Seager because of TJ)
Btw, Seager was rehabbing not one injury but two. Hip surgery and Tommy John. He still lead the NL in doubles in 19. Then in 20 he turned those into bombs, and he’s kept driving the ball thru the playoffs and ST this year. He hasn’t stopped hitting since ST 2.0 last year. This truly looks like healthy Corey. And that’s awesome/terrifying
Btw, I know it’s ST, but Seager had 8 ST home runs this year, to tie for lead league along with Joc. He’s been a constant monster for nearly a year
Why do you think he was traded to begin with?
Anyone like paying him 45M in 2022 and 2023
and 30 over the other 8 years? Works with luxury cap and avoids crazy salary in years 9-10
With Cano coming back on the payroll in 22 and 23 I think the front load hurts the Mets. You’d rather push money off because of time value than accelerate it.
There’s no guarantee Cano comes back…clean.
Lindor ranked 12th among shortstops in OPS in 2020, and 95th overall among qualified MLB hitters. By no stretch of the imagination is Lindor worth anywhere near what the Mets have offered.
Are you serious? You’re going to judge his worth by his 2020 numbers?
No. On his 2020 effort. He quit on the Indians just like he’ll quit on any team that gives him a long term ridiculous offer.
Well you seem unbiased so we’ll take your word
Bye bye Lindor. We don’t need you. Good luck getting that money next year. Greedy schmuck.
Wouldn’t $385 million be the largest contract ever signed in MLB History? Look, I get he’s a great player, a consistent 6-WAR producer, and the marketability is also there, but $325 million is more than fair imo.
In his own mind he’s a great player. But, not $325 mil great.
He has had a WAR of 6 or higher only once in his career
He is more a 5 WAR player while in his peak physical age range.
He’s averaged about 5.8 fWAR/700 plate appearances.
We all know that once these guys get to free agency they are going to be over payed and their value is going to go down over time. The teams that had these players already had the best value out of these players. I think in LIndor’s case he just wants to have a choice on where he wants to play, right now the Dodgers would be everyone’s favorite. They have the team, climate, and money that other teams don’t have.
Why do you people cry about players not getting enough money and when a player like Lindor asks to be the highest paid, you guys cry about him being paid too much? He is as good at shortstop as Trout and Betts are in the outfield. He is much better at shortstop than Realmuto is at catcher. The truth is, ALL MLB players are overpaid, but Lindor is an elite talent and has earned the right to be overpaid like those mentioned. He is an established veteran, unlike Tatis, who has almost played enough games in his career to have the equivalent of one full season. Lindor will get the money and it will be from the Mets. I tend to side with the owners, but they are just a bunch of filthy rich SOBs who will always give in to the players’ demands. The new Mets ownership is no different than past Mets ownership. They only learn when they get burned.
“He is as good at shortstop as Trout and Betts are in the outfield”
Baseball also has an offensive portion of it and when you combine offense and defense…no, Lindor is not as good as Trout or Mookie
He won’t be good defensively at 34 thru 40
Except there are 3 outfield positions but just one shortstop. An older center fielder and slide to a corner. An older shortstop, well, they rarely produce as they age at other positions. No one wants to see a 35 year old shortstop as his skills decline, especially with 4 more years left on his contract.
Next year he will be one more closer to 30. Who jumps on that for 10 years?
I don’t want owners to get richer or a higher share of money, but I just can’t justify anyone being worth that much money.
MLB needs to find a solution to make the game more accessible and affordable for families. Take some money, invest it in to little league, inner cities, grow the grassroots of the game. Cut down players salaries AND profits to owners, it’s just getting silly now.
Stop buying tickets at the prices they’re at and they’ll drop. Teams aren’t just going to charge less when people are still buying them at the current price.
These comments are so disrespectful to the best SS in baseball, Corey Seager
“These comments are so disrespectful to the best SS in the game Corey Seager.”
Good for him. Then his minimum asking price will be $341 million. Keep telling everyone how great he is and maybe he will demand much more.
cryptonerd:
Seager is the best hitting SS in MLB. But SS is the second most important position on the field and the glove is as important as the bat. That’s why Seager is not the best SS in baseball. Great bat, but woefully inferior to Lindor defensively. Lindor’s bat is not as far behind Seager’s as Seager’s glove is behind Lindor’s. Thus, Lindor is the #1 SS in MLB.
I agree with your scouting but I value the bat more.
Everyone knows how free agency works for top players. Every year when a top free agent hits the market they expect to reset the market. And they do it. Manny Machado got $300 million from the Padres and everyone knew that Harper would get more. And he did. Cole hit free agency 2 years ago and he set the record for pitcher pay. The only premium talent last year was Bauer and he set the AAV record. That’s how it works.
This years the Padres screwed everyone by signing their star SS first. Now the top SS of this “amazing” free agent SS class is going to expect $341 million minimum. And Lindor is widely considered to be the best. Despite the widely varying opinions on that. So…
It is going to cost a minimum of $341 million to sign Lindor.
Besides that, other SS’s are going to expect that as well. Every article that said that Seager or Story or Correa is the best SS of this class will be used to bolster their case. All of those arguments that everyone has used ON THIS FORUM. The Dodger fans who make the case that Seager is the best. The Mets fans who say Lindor. The Astros fans and Correa. All of those arguments will be used to show that each of them is worth $341 million.
Just because Preller did something stupid and overpaid to sign Tatis doesn’t mean all the other GM’s are going to overpay to sign Lindor, Seager et al. They all think for themselves. And so does Preller.
Actually it does. That is how these things work. Nobody is worth what they are making. But they still all get paid. 3 years ago when everyone wanted Machado and Harper everyone knew that whichever one signed first, the other was going to get more. That is exactly what happened. That’s how inflation works.
No, it doesn’t. There need to be other teams actually willing to give that amount of money for your theory to work.
Also…that’s less inflation and more market rate.
Players are only worth what teams are willing to give them
Lindor, Seager, Story, Correa, Baez, Semien
Now what 6 teams can give upwards of 8 years at an AAV over 30 million for a SS?
That is the problem these players face. Supply exceeds teams even capable of doing it. You can’t have a bidding war when there are more players than teams bidding
If that is all the case why are the Mets in such a big hurry to extend Lindor?
NY has the most unforgiving media in the world. Trading for him and not signing him is a PR nightmare they will suffer with all season
They know full well there are more elite Shortstops than teams to sign them on next seasons FA market. But they also know they will likely spend arou d 10/300 on one of the top ones, and they’ve already made the trade to bring in the one they are expected to sign.
@darkstar61 in order to be a good GM you have to completely tune out thinks like “PR” or “optics.” It’s all about making good baseball moves. Overpaying in trade because you think the guy will magically sign an extension is not a good baseball move.
Being expected to sign Lindor isn’t a reason to trade for him. It’s a reason against trading for him. They could have just waited a year, signed him as FA and kept Gimenez, Rosario et al.
They didn’t trade for Lindor because they were expected to; they are trying to extend him because everyone knows they are going to sign one of them and Lindor is the one they’ve already aquired
But the Mets failed to get Bauer, Springer, Hand and every other FA they targeted
They traded for Lindor
If they do not sign Lindor to an extension, they will be trashed 24/7 until October
They know they will pay in the range of 10/300 for a top guy. They are willing to go 10/325 to avoid that beating from the media. No way they will go anywhere near 12/385 just to avoid the media attacks though
Cohen came into MLB flaunting his wealth. He then made it all about him by playing baseball smart guy on Twitter. He apparently sees himself as some kind of hero. So dumb. He is the new rich kid in a huge media market and the MLBPA is breaking him in. The union’s goal is to keep salaries moving skyward. That will mean no discounts for Uncle Steve. If he wants the best players, he’ll have to pay more than other teams to get them. Did you see Alonso’s comments about Lindor deserving $400 million? That’s just a sample of what Cohen will be facing with Alonso’s soon-to-be free agent teammates (which will include deGrom when he opts out).
Again. The media doesn’t know or care about the Mets’ best interest or the lack of demand for top guys. So if Alderson is offering Lindor more than he will get on the open market when he has no one else bidding against him then maybe being a baseball executive isn’t for him.
Exactly, the Media could care less about the Mets best interests. All they want is results to talk about
Results on Mets first offseason under Cohen; failed to sign Bauer or Spring or Hand or any other major FA they were connected to, and couldn’t extent Lindor
So they are trying to extend Lindor
This is not difficult to comprehend. They know they will spend about 10/300 in FA for a top SS, so they are trying to extend Lindor for around that. They’ll even go a bit higher because the media negativity saved is worth the extra. They will go nowhere near 12/385 though as it is likely spending 100 million more than they need to for similar production. If he won’t take the 325, they take the negativity and get another SS at around 10/300 after the season. Its all very simple
Alderson is qualified for the job. The problem is Cohen’s deep pockets. Stevie needs to put his checkbook where his tweets are. If the Mets want one of those shortstops, they’ll have to outbid the field. The same will be true in trying to extend Conforto, Syndergaard, Stroman, deGrom (when he opts out), and, of course, Lindor. Cohen is the wealthiest owner in MLB, much to the delight of the MLBPA. Either pay up or each of those players will leave.
Again not sure why you refuse to accept “Cohen wants to make a splash and is probably going to overpay”
One GM doesn’t mean that’s the market. Same with Preller and Tatis
We’ve never seen 5 stars at the same position in the same market all reset the market on top of each other. It’s not how supply and demand works
Every team in MLB can afford it. Owners with no interest in winning have fans like you tricked into thinking they can’t. These owners are content making ridiculous amounts of money on their investment.
That is pure nonsense with no relation to reality
No, it is true. Do you have any idea what these teams are worth? The Kansas City Royals were sold for $1 billion. Ya know why? Because owners are raking in money hand over fist on their “investment.” Pocketing money that could and should be used to build a better ballclub.
darkstar61:
Semien does belong with the other 5. He’s had one good season with the bat, and is vastly inferior to the others with the glove.
So 5 players, and you think there aren’t 5 teams willing to pay top dollar for a top quality SS?
Dodgers, Mets, Giants, Phillies, Angels.
Dodgers can sign their own or see who’s left out at end of next year.. Dodgers aren’t worried
There are 6 of them; Lindo, Baez, Correa, Story, Semien and Seager. Semien definitely belongs
2018-2020, bWAR/650 PA:
6.6 – Story
6.4 – Baez
5.5 – Correa
5.3 – Semien
5.2 – Lindor
4.1 – Seager (had 2018 TJ)
The Phillies are pushing cap already, have holes elsewhere, and are paying a SS 15 million in 2022 already. Unlikely involved
The Angels are constantly up against their salary as is, with 3 of the highest salaries in baseball elsewhere on the field in 2022, yet have no pitching. They traded for the cheap Iglesias for a reason this year
Giants, yes, I can see them doing something silly like that. So thats 3 teams and 6 elite SS options wanting 8+/250+ contracts? They’re not all getting it
Lindor’s BWar from 2018-2020 was 13.2….what are the totals for these other guys?
and who signs first and who waits out the market?
look at Realmuto. Mets didn’t want to wait out that market and signed mcCann. no real market developed for realmuto. factor in this many SS’s and it will make a really interesting offseason.
even bauer ended up being a 2 team negotiation, but he did pretty well for himself.
Bauer wasnt even a premium talent.
Last 3 years he’s been a top 12 pitcher in era, FIP and other predictive stats
He has done better in the league the longer he’s there. Like the majority of MLB players. He’s overpaid, but when it’s for 2 years. He’s not. They paid a premium to not deal with age 33+
385 for 12 Years ! That is way too much. For a middle infielder who relays on his legs.
Is this guy a HOFer ? 32 mil on avg I don’t know. Consider they are changing the ball to have less flight moving forward. Is he gonna hit 3rd and still hit 30 bombs with a high ops throughout. This is like 2 contracts. Pay him thru 34 for premium play. Then stuck like Miguel Cabrera for another five. This sounds like bust to me. Can’t find another player to fill the void at short. Or draft. And build upward from there?
I’d pass. And thru the 12 years I’m sure they can find a few guys to fill around and still be contenders if they draft well. And hit everything at the right time. Large contracts are not saviors. They are complementary. Like San Diego. This is too much money for Lindor I think
Should’ve never traded for him without an extension
They didn’t give up big package…
If Pete Alonso says he’s worth $400M, then he’s worth $400M. Pay up.
How scientific!
I love when players do that when they know their turn will be coming. remember Noah being vocal when the mets were negotiatign with degrom?
Let him walk for $385 million that’s like the Pirates total team salary for like the next 15-20 years lol
Man these contracts r insane to play a sport there’s gonna be a point that only the rich and elite will be able to afford to go to any sporting even cuz yer paying one man $400 million . Correct no one is worth that much money maybe the person that finds a cure for cancer that’s about it
Believing you will get that kind of money on a contract of that length, he’ll be 39, is delusional. Good luck with that, Franky.
The problem with the Lindor situation is this. If the Mets pay what he is asking, then they will look desperate, and every player will ask for ( and expect) superstar money
I would think it would be a horrible overpay. But there are players getting overpaid every year. With all the other SS available, and only so many teams willing to pay these types of dollars, I would think the smart business move would be for Mets to wait.
It would be nice if a team said final offer and stood their ground. But usually they blink. But with so much uncertainty in the world today maybe there will be more caution in signings.
On the other hand you can’t blame a player for wanting to get all they can.
Why, as a team, would you choose to overpay on the backside of a contract? Simmons is the best defensive SS. Iglesias provides solid defense and an adequate bat. Both are cheap, don’t require the long term commitment, and provide surplus value. Sure, they will need to be replaced in two years, but you will have the money to pay Adames when he is available, or Torres. The best 1B can provide the numbers at lower cost. Most teams would be happy with Cron on a $1MM deal. Value is easier to find in the OF. Let the Fools pay the back ends.
LOL
I’m really curious to see how this plays out over the next couple days. For whatever reason I feel like this has a tremendous impact on the upcoming CBA.
I’d say there is zero chance this gets done, which is fine.
He’s not getting $385M in the open market, but he’ll probably get what the Mets offered.
The Mets will have a choice of available SS’s in the offseason including Lindor.
With neither party budging an inch, I’d say negotiations are over.
If he wants $385m the Mets should let him walk. That’s ridiculous.
Agree. He is not half as good let alone better than betts in terms of WAR, ops+ or any other measure. Dude is a great player, his smile is great but he is no where near being the best player. He wasn’t the best player in his team last year, maybe 3rd best
Agreed, nothing statistically supports that type of pay day. He’s making a mistake because if he doesn’t have a great year his contract next year could drop substantially on the open market.
I am not a Mets fan but I cant believe Lindor turned this down if True. Betts is much better and that is the most recent comp. I dont know how much more if any he will get, and he could get injured. I assume he doesnt want to be a Met long term.
Frankie needs to do the Mets a solid sign for 11yrs @$361 with opt outs in years 3, 6,9
That is not “doing the Mets a solid” it would be screwing them over
He’s hurt and garbage by year two and they are stuck giving him 11 years at a higher AAV than they wanted to go for 10. They’d be paying him till he’s 39 years old, when they probably don’t even want to pay him more than the next 8 seasons, and are only going 10 because they know the market would give 10 to him
And we are in this boat because Lindor wants to try to get every single penny he can get until he’s turning 40 years old, regardless of how nonsensical that is. Harper, when attempting to get to a certain number, said to give him cheap years at the very end of the deal when he will probably not be that good. Lindor is saying pay me 30 million a year as a 38 & 39 year old
Most solid thing for the Mets is walking away. Lindor is not negotiating in good faith while the Mets already raised their offer 40 Million just to see him demands another 60 on top of that.
That deal Mets will never ever do..
This is Betts all over. Except Betts chose to stay in LA. He wanted the big money and found the deep pocket. The Mets have a deeper pocket than they had before but I think he’s overvalued himself. Play the season. If the Mets win the World Series, the sky’s the limit. But don’t ask for the sky before you’ve done anything.
Betts is better and is still overpaid.. he was smart.. he cashed in his lottery ticket
Whyhayzee: You’re correct, and so is gcg27, but I will add that deep pockets matter not without a hand in the pocket……
Why do teams even entertain 10 or 12 year deals? Lindor is great and has been great, but will he continue to be great at 32, 33, 35 or been 30? If he can get it, more power to him. But if I am a GM/owner, I’m not touching a contract like that.
even*
Teams push the envelope so the competition has to pay the next guy even more money. It’s a dangerous pyramid scheme and only the wealthy teams can participate. They’re like lawyers suing for damages. Whatever the highest amount paid has been, that’s the new bar. Sometimes it’s called social inflation.
You are describing the Canadian housing market.
Agee’s. especially when a player’s strengths include speed and defense. He’s not worth that if he had to move to 3B or the outfield.
You can’t think of it as a straight-line deal. If he has a 6 WAR in his first year, it is worth a lot more than $30M. I would think of a $330M/10 deal as more like $42M, $40M, all the way down to $24M.
JoeBrady: That’s really good perspective on how these work and helps to define the large sums of money and it correlates to the player as he ages. I like it, good post, sir.
And=as **
Another way is to say it is there’s surplus value early and a deficit later. Plus one would hope the deficit was diminished by the increasing salaries making those future dollars a little bit less of a deficit in value. I’m blending some concepts here but agreeing with your point.
If I’m the Mets I just leave that offer. He’s coming off a bad year and has never played in a big market. Let him go on the market next year with all the other SS. I think Correa is the best fit for the Mets long term next year.
Selfish demands from a selfish player
Not selfish. Every player knows their salary has a cascading effect on every player in MLB but in particular at their position. Plus, pushing negotiations to the deadline is common practice and not “selfishness”.
He won’t get more.. abs even if he adds 20 mill from someone next year is it worth the risk of injury? Not even any deferred money in the deal.. greed
How is it selfish? He doesn’t owe the Mets anything.
It’s selfish in the fact that he wants more money but that’s his goal of playing, to make himself money. I think what people are getting at is he wants a record contract for his position but he isn’t the best SS in the game. I am also not saying there’s anything wrong with asking for more money, he deserves every penny he can get.
he isn’t even projected to hit .270.. last year was his worst by far.. He has looked great in spring though.. still 1.2 war is meh.. that translates to about $10 million salary. if he performs this year he will get what he wants.. if he stays at 1.2 war again he won’t be getting 300 mil in the off season. He didn’t even get any mvp votes last year and he wants 385 mil after his worst year.. kind of laughable. not even a top 10 SS by stats. he was literally playing equal to a bench player last year for war.. that’s not good lol.
If I am one of those top 4 FA Shortstops, I am salivating now. I just found out what the Mets opening bid was, and can now use that as leverage when I talk to clubs. $32.5m in AAV? Let’s talk. This may help sway the market now for those guys, although not at 10 years.
Someone will be left without a chair next year. When the music stops someone won’t be happy.. I think Mets were more than fair
Ive been a Met fan since 67. i dont want to see them pay more than what Cohen has offered. Would be fun to watch Lindor play in his walk year. LFGM!!
He’s an idiot. 325 mill.. one injury and poof.. really can’t see him getting any more .. if I’m Mets I’ll go shopping in free agency next year and thank Lol Brie and wish him best… a lot of good shortstops will be available..
If Lindor wants to bet on himself, good for him. If Cohen doesn’t want to commit more than $325M to a single player, I can understand that.
But, you can’t make that trade unless you know you can extend Lindor. Especially when the Mets gave up what appeared to be their future SS.
Also, offer $355M over 11 years for deGrom’s sake. Seems like it might be a pissing match for at least one of the sides.
Finally, maybe don’t ever go on Twitter and discuss negotiations with players. I know a lot of players liked what he had to say earlier in the offseason, but airing this stuff out can’t help in future pursuits.
We gave up veery little and also got a top 20 pitcher in baseball.
I know what the Mets gave up and what they got.
He’s holding firm on the $385MM! Oh my, this is going to be so bad – for him. Mets should just Bobby Bonilla him – pay him until he’s 97 years old. $385MM over like 72 years.
His options will significantly dwindle if Mets don’t sign him. Yankees won’t for that; LAD might; but that’s about it. Who else is going to pay almost $400MM, or even $350MM, that needs a SS?
His agent and him are clueless rn.
Clipper….the money being spoken about is beyond our comprehension…I think its obvious that Lindor’s intention is to re-set the market for highest salary ever….he or his family will never be able to spend a third of these types of numbers….
How do you ever equate paying a player who will be somewhere between 37 and 39 this type of money…if anything, Cano is a good case in point of what not to do when you have some physical sanity which I believe Cohen has.
Rocky7: Very true, my friend.
I’m hoping we trade him at the deadline. Probably can get better prospects than we gave up for him.
please extend him. otherwise, arte will spend all that much on him instead of pitching.
I would just let him become a FA at this point if I was the Mets FO.
Save the $$ and pick a SS from the class of FAs coming up.
If Lindor’s 2021 production is anything like his 2020 was, he really regret passing on the 10/325 offer.
Face it…hes going FA. I would be very shocked if he signs and never hits the open market
He wants multiple teams in a bidding war over him.
The gap here doesn’t seem insurmountable.
The jealousy is thick in these comments.
Bottom line as many have alluded to; Lindor just isn’t a good enough player to warrant top money. I’m not sure he is a top 15 player. His offensive numbers are dwarfed by Trout, Betts, Tatis, and Harper.
Offensive numbers don’t tell the entire picture, because Lindor is a good defender at an important position, which increases his value quite a bit. Lindor is a top 10 position player in terms of accumulated WAR over the past 5 years partly because of his defense, coupled with above average offense. Harper isn’t even in the top 20 position players over that period…
It’s dumbfounding that many fans care nothing about defense, especially up-the-middle defense. For a poor defensive team like the Mets, Lindor is a game-changer.
I would prefer the Mets take the $380 mil he wants and spilt it. Circa $200 for one of Seager, Baez or Story and up to $180 for comforto. That would be money better spent
Yeah, actually you’re right. But I think just the fact that the Mets offered it for Lindor, you’ll now never get those personnel for that. They see the money offered and what he’s asking; they also know Seager is right behind him….. my point, they won’t get both now because Seager and/or Baez will push to get as close as possible to that number.
I think it is possible to get one of them for that amount. They all have a few factors going against them. 1) They are hitting free agency a bit older (age 28/29) so the contracts can be a bit shorter 2) there will be quite a number of them, the number of teams in need of a SS with the financial means for a $200 mil contract is limited 3) None of them will want to be last one to sign and possible have to settle for a lot less.
He better take that deal lol he ain’t getting 400 mil on the open market with all the other superstar SS hitting free agency as well and the uncertainty of the economics from the pandemic this upcoming season and the mlbpa and owners agreement ending this season. Plus God forbid he stinks it up or gets injured. You just hit the lottery take the deal.
Just remember. For every superstar SS that’s hits the open market, there’s a team that now has an opening where a superstar SS was playing.
Lindor is going to have to put up a monster season to exceed the 10/$325M the Mets just offered him. On one hand, I guess you can say good for him for believing in himself so much, but on the other hand, it seems like a bad decision on Lindor’s part. I just don’t see him being able to do enough in 2021 to get a better offer than this. The Mets will be fine as there are plenty of FA SS’s they can sign next year.
There are so many factors at work here that make Lindor’s decision a very unnecessary gamble. The likelihood he’ll get even a matching offer in FA is remote. Too many other viable options teams can pivot to, and with the current CBA expiring which will fuel uncertainty on both sides, I just don’t see him doing better than this. Can’t fault the Mets for resisting a massive overpay.
That’s my take on this. What’s his upside? I doubt he nearly as good as Trout of Betts. Tatis might be close, but a lot younger. I’d say Lindor is more like a Harper/Machado type. I’d be surprised if the upside was more than $25M.
The downside with another mediocre season might be $50M, and if injured, a lot more than that.
I remember a job interview, for a job I really wanted. When my boss mentioned the salary, I mentioned a slightly higher amount. When he said he’d have to clear it with his boss, I couldn’t fold my cards fast enough. I got lucky when I mentioned ‘how about we split the difference?’ and he agreed.
I don’t think Lindor will do any better here. Add a few options so it looks like you are getting more, maybe 2 years at $20M each, ne be done with it.
Long term deals very rarely work out well for teams. While the 32.5M avg seems reasonable for his level, extending out beyond the age of 37 becomes interesting since the DH isn’t in the NL…yet.
The 32.5M could be moot by the time he hits year 7, however so can his production. Not many teams with cash have a need at SS, and with the FA group coming out, it would be in Lindor’s best interest to get something done with the Mets before taking it to FA. Story is not a bad fallback and would come at a lower price tag with fewer years, which may be better in the long run.
These players have become ridiculous with their expectations.
Yes they have. What’s worse is you still have many fans admonishing MLB orgs with, “Give the players some of your billions; they deserve a piece!”
It’s incredible to me but this reflects the danger of money being god and appeasing your ego at the expense of all else.
I hope you are well, my friend.
All is good Clipper. Hope the same with you.
1 Timothy 6:10 – “For the love of money is the root of all evil…”
Joey B-And the lack of money comes in a close second for a lot of other evils.
Joe Brady: Possibly true; or it’s the foundational lack of of something greater than oneself. When an individual is his own glory, problems typically arise, whether one has a lot or no money at all.
Offer him 10/350 with an opt out after year three. He won’t use the opt out, but it will give him a sense of control if he doesn’t like his situation. I’d rather pay the higher AAV but not have him in the books at 38. He’ll have exceeded Tatis’ total value. He won’t turn that down. Everyone can then move along.
If this is all a matter of Lindor believing in himself, then offer a shorter term deal. How about 5 years at $190, with opt outs after year two and four. If he is the best player in the league for the first two seasons then he can seek a bigger payday, while still under 30.
The mets handed lindor too much leverage. They traded way too good a package for a potential 1 season player. Lindor knows met fans will destroy the organization if he does not resign. Losing those prospects plus lindor while not making the playoffs this year would be a crippling ordeal for steve cohens tenure
I think the fans are on the teams side right now. $32.5 for 10 is a record deal for a SS. If you add Lindors arb salaries to compare to Tatis’ deal, Lindor would be at $375m for 13 years. Mookie Betts is a better player, got 365m at the same point in his career but a Tom was deferred. At this point, if he doesn’t want $325m now the Mets might save a few dollars on the open market whether they get him cheaper or someone else. Cohen is trying too hard to make a year 1 splash. I’d rather see the overall quality of the Mets FAs get better than them sign the same cheap players with one big name.
I think you’re dead wrong on this. The package they gave up wasn’t that big and many Met fans, including myself, are perfectly fine by with Lindor being a one and done guy. There really isn’t much pressure at all, and, if anything, Lindor’s crazy demands are lessening the pressure on the team.
We all know that once these guys get to free agency they are going to be over payed and their value is going to go down over time. The teams that had these players already had the best value out of these players. I think in LIndor’s case he just wants to have a choice on where he wants to play, right now the Dodgers would be everyone’s favorite. They have the team, climate, and money that other teams don’t have. He may just want to pick his own flavor, with a couple of opt outs!
Mets aren’t close to the same position the Dodgers were when they acquired Betts. Bad comparison.
Mets can take a run at another free agent SS or begin the Mauricio era. Use that money to replenish pitching or a CF and make a trade or two. The offer to Lindor was strong.
Mauricio is about to be 20 and hasn’t played above a ball. Hes not sniffing the majors any time soon
Why would that matter? The Mets aren’t a legitimate contender. Building for the future is the smart way to go. Granted, they could have done that by keeping Gimenez. Bad planning by the new “hero” owner.
And the dodgers still haven’t won a real championship.
Cey Hey it matters because they believe they are contenders regardless of your opinion. Otherwise why trade for Lindor in the first place? You almost answered your own question, contradicting your own comment entirely.
Astros did I need to hit a buzzer on the word “or” for you to pay any attention?
The other word you forgot to use is “probably” when referring to Mauricio and not sniffing. Mets had that sniffing problem in the 80s.
That’s a large assumption for an almost-20 year old, with a K/W > 4.00 in A-ball, with 39 errors in roughly one full year.
The Mets can still sign him if they don’t sign him today. They are not disqualified from signing him in the off season. Today is not do or die.
Absolutely. And for less $$ in all probability – if they want to.
This time next year he’ll be in pinstripes cross town. On a real team
Dats nutz
So who you letting walk then …. Judge, Gleybar, Frazier, Voit Tallon, Sanchez plus the other 10 guys up for arbitration next year. Before arbitration, the yankees are at 140M, arbitration this year was 40 million not including Torres, Voit, and Frazier for first time and Judge going through final year of arbitration (guessing no extension talks for nim next year)?
Also Cashman has been valuing picks, Is he willing to lose the pick plus pretty much guarantee cap hell for the foreseeable future or lose one or more of the guys listed above plus having very little ability to sign anyone (you know the owners will throw fits about taxes)?
clearly he doesnt really wanna be in new york long term. this offer would be till he is a year older than tatis, 2nd highest aav in the sport and he has no where near the numbers to warrant more than betts but he is getting more aav. if he really wanted to be there long term he would have taken it. he just wants to choose his next spot. even if he has a career year i bet he still ends up signing somewhere for less. but i bet with the mets luck he doesnt have a career year
Now I bet so many aren’t so convinced Cleveland got robbed because it looks obvious all you get is one year of Lindor but that should have been assumed from the beginning.
The Mets can’t agree to a 12 year, $385 million contract. He just hasn’t been THAT good for his last 900 AB’s. There’s going to be a lot of options for 2022. No need to tie yourself to such a monstrous contract.
Even if he was THAT good for 900 ABs, they still can’t do 12/385, because he certainly won’t be THAT good for 900 more! In case you didn’t notice the more part is the one I was trying to accentuate because that’s when he would get paid…… a lot.
I am not one to ever call someone greedy. But how does he not jump all over this contract. He’s an amazing player, but I don’t see how someone offers him more. And would it really be THAT much more?
If you’re at an impasse over 60 million dollars then you are a self righteous greedy person who cares nothing about the game and the people you play for.
Don’t give any player that kind of money. All it does is cause you to trade them sooner than later, and it’s a complete waste of money if they decide to suck while playing. Not worth it.
So stupid to even be offering this kind of money to any player. Stupid owners bending over to the greedy agents.
I cant fault him for overvaluing himself as that is what he believe he is worth. I think he is making a big mistake but he probably thinks he is guaranteed atleast that much right now. With how flooded the market is with upper end short stops, I believe he will be disappointed and probably come away closer to 300M.
You can probably get someone that is 90% of what lindor is for half the price and potentially keep conforto which is the probably the best OF FA this coming offseason by a good margin (probably not with what im sure boras is promising).
His agent and himself think they have some huge leverage over the Mets. The Mets traded a package for him, not an amazing one, but fans see that and think one year of Lindor for our future amazing MVP caliber prospects!!!!!! So they’re asking for Trout money which is honestly embarrassing. He’s not worth anything close to Trout or Betts or Cole. I think 300M is way too much for Lindor. He has been declining the past couple season.
Agents like this are why fans turn on players. The Boras effect. It’s why they get booed when they return home. I wouldn’t be surprised if Lindor gets booed later in the season after turning down another 300M offer. Mets fans will be bringing signs that read their trade proposals for the deadline instead of cheering for him.
Let him walk after this year and offer Story the $325M contract next year.
The problem for Story is he’ll have the Coors inflation hanging around his neck. 75 OPS+ on the road, granted Lindor isn’t a ton better at 87. Combine Coors with his high K rate and it will be a hard sell for a team to give Story 300M.
If he plays like he did last season than $325 million is a massive overpay. He’s really been a declining player over the last several years and his career numbers are just above average. The Indians didn’t get that great of a package for him because one year of Lindor doesn’t help a team that much at all.
Mets made a good offer… Lindor, under the poor advice of his agent, brushes the offer aside as if it’s an insult. Ridiculous. Get one year out of the guy and let someone else overpay him while he declines. Mega contracts do more harm than good anyway.
So true. And, as mentioned, the Mets could use the leftover $$$ to sign any of the other FA shortstops next season and still have enough to feed a small village for a few years
“The problem with playing chicken, is who blinks first.” ( Scott Glenn ( The Hunt For Red October)). Maybe neither blinks and it becomes a train wreck
He’s not signing!!!!!
Lindor is shouting “show me the money” but the Mets aren’t listening or have ever heard of the movie Jerry McGuire!
All this talk about him being the best, I’m not sure he’s better than Bogaerts. He might be the 5th next shortstop? He’s durable – for now – and very good, yes. But at age 35?
Up the offer to a higher AAV for shorter period of time and load it with even more incentives. He can be a free agent again when he’s 34
– 8/300 with opt outs from both sides. Let him cash in again at 34. Oh wait, no player would risk that…
This deal would be a massive mistake for the mets
I have nothing but hatred for the Mets and their annoying fans, BUT for as much as I would love to see them saddled with a 400 million dollar contract here, they cannot under any circumstances give into Lindor. They were getting outrageous contract asks from players during the off-season because everyone knows how much money Cohen has. If he gives in right now then every free agent is gonna be trying to rip him off moving forward. Mets can’t allow that and I’m sure they’re aware of it. Cohen didn’t get to where he is by being an idiot. I don’t see him paying a single dollar above the 325 offer if I’m being honest. And frankly, I don’t see Lindor being offered that ever again. So good for the Mets.
#Chemo850 “I have nothing but hatred for the Mets and their annoying fans”
Dude I will say a prayer for you; hatred its just baseball
Who said anything about baseball? Just like everyone else, I dislike Met fans because they’re disturbingly annoying.
Maybe Mets fans would like to know who you root for….turnaround is fair play Dude!
That being said, Happy Easter!
Marlins fan. Can’t really criticize us since there aren’t enough of us.
He could come down a bit on his demand and get a deal done. With a QO attached at season end, he’s less valuable. If he gets hurt there is a missed opportunity for real financial security for life. Additionally, the FA ss next year may force him to sign a lesser contract. Teams will have more to choose from. Take the deal
Secondly as a Mets fan Pete Alonso should worry more about playing first base than sounding off about the Lindor contract. Dom Smith should play first and let’s trade Alonso to an American League club who needs a DH for some SP.
Still Hoping the Mets wait out Lindor
I’ll take Pete Alonso on my team
How much different is the lifestyle of a guy who makes $325,000,000 than a guy who makes $385,000,000?
+60MM different
A gazillionaire like Cohen is poisoning negotiations with his tweets, which creat undue pressure to go along with his bargaining position. Kudos to Lindor for not letting it sway him.
Yes, Kudos to Lindor! Don’t be swayed Frankie! Don’t sign for ANY team that doesn’t pay $385MM for 12 years, no matter how long it takes. That’ll show ‘em.
Nice
I say he’s gonna get like 10yrs/341m?