The Mariners and Brewers announced a trade sending second baseman Kolten Wong and cash considerations from Milwaukee to Seattle in exchange for outfielder Jesse Winker and infielder Abraham Toro. The Brewers are reportedly sending about $1.75MM to the Mariners, which effectively makes this a cash-neutral swap.
The 32-year-old Wong is owed a $10MM salary after the Brewers exercised a club option on him following the season. He’ll be a free agent next winter. Winker, meanwhile, is owed $8.25MM in 2023 after inking a two-year deal covering his final arbitration seasons last year. Like Wong, he’s ticketed for free agency next winter. Toro, on the other hand, is not yet arbitration-eligible and can be controlled for another four seasons.
Wong was a natural target for the Mariners, given their lack of an obvious starter at second base and their desire to add some balance to a lineup that skews a bit right-handed. He’ll give the M’s a steady presence, quite possibly atop the lineup, on the heels of the two best offensive seasons of his career. During his two years as a Brewer, Wong slashed a combined .262/.337/.439 with 29 home runs, 56 doubles, six triples and 29 steals.
With the Brewers, Wong seemingly made a concerted effort to begin elevating the ball with more frequency. His ground-ball rate, which had sat around 47% in St. Louis, dropped to a career-low 41.8% this past season, and Wong made noticeable gains in both his line-drive rate and especially his fly-ball rate as a member of the Brewers. As one would expect, the increased number of balls in the air also increased Wong’s power output. His .177 ISO (slugging percentage minus batting average) in two years with the Brewers was substantially higher than the .123 mark he carried in parts of eight seasons with the Cardinals.
On the defensive side of the game, however, the 2022 season was a bizarre and borderline nightmarish one for Wong. Typically one of the game’s best defenders at his position, Wong made a stunning 17 errors — more than he’d totaled in the three prior seasons combined. When his option was picked up, Wong told the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel’s Todd Rosiak that his legs weren’t fully healthy in 2022, which he felt contributed to his surprising defensive shortcomings (Twitter links). Wong missed time in June with a calf strain that sent him to the injured list, and it’s certainly plausible that his legs cost him some of his typical defensive excellence.
It was a similar tale for Winker in 2022, as injuries weighed down his production in what will now be his lone season as a Mariner. Acquired alongside Eugenio Suarez in a trade that sent pitching prospect Brandon Williamson, outfielder Jake Fraley and righty Justin Dunn to Cincinnati, Winker (perhaps literally) limped through the weakest offensive season of his career before undergoing left knee surgery and a second procedure to address a bulging disc in his neck back in October.
The extent to which those injuries dogged Winker can’t be known for certain, but the former Reds slugger went from one of the game’s best hitters against right-handed pitching to a lackluster .219/.344/.344 batting line with the Mariners in 2022.
Winker’s defense was also impacted; he’s never been considered a plus defender in the outfield corners, but he logged career-worst marks in Defensive Runs Saved (-16), Ultimate Zone Rating (-7.2) and Outs Above Average (-10) in the Emerald City. Beyond Winker’s deteriorating performance on the field, Ryan Divish of the Seattle Times reported in October the manner in which Winker had fallen out of favor in the Seattle clubhouse.
The decline was swift and fairly stunning. In the two seasons prior to being acquired by the Mariners, Winker was one of the game’s three best hitters against right-handed pitching, trailing only Juan Soto and Bryce Harper in terms of wRC+. He posted a video game-esque .321/.417/.619 batting line in 509 plate appearances against righties in that span, and while his production against fellow lefties was nowhere near that level, he still walked at a 12% clip against them, resulting in a .314 OBP. His .199 average and .338 slugging against lefties were dismal, but at the very least, Winker could get on base at a near-average clip even in disadvantageous platoon matchups.
The Brewers’ hope will be that the pair of surgeries and an offseason of rest and rehab will get Winker back to the form he showed when he was a thorn in their side as a member of the division-rival Reds. Only time will tell, however, whether Winker is indeed able to rebound.
If Winker is unable to return to form, the Brewers can still pin some hopes on Toro — another rebound candidate looking to benefit from a change of scenery. The switch-hitting 25-year-old (26 later this month) was one of the top prospects in the Astros’ system for several years but never got the opportunity to establish himself for a Houston club that had Alex Bregman at third base and Jose Altuve at second base — Toro’s primary positions. The Astros traded Toro and veteran reliever Joe Smith to the Mariners in a controversial deadline swap that saw Seattle send then-closer Kendall Graveman and righty Rafael Montero to Houston in return.
There were plenty of parallels between that Toro trade and the 2022 trade that saw the Brewers send Josh Hader to San Diego. As was the case with Brewers fans this year, Mariners fans — and the clubhouse — were angered to see the closer of a contending club traded to another postseason contender, even though both the Mariners (Smith, Toro) and Brewers (Taylor Rogers, Esteury Ruiz, Robert Gasser) received some immediate MLB help and long-term prospect value in the return.
Unfortunately for the Mariners, Toro wasn’t ever able to fully cement himself as a regular fixture in the lineup. He caught fire with the Mariners immediately following the trade, even connecting on a memorable go-ahead grand slam against Graveman himself just one month after the trade. The 2022 season, however, saw Toro receive infrequent playing time and struggle to a .185/.239/.324 slash in 352 plate appearances. That said, he’s not far removed from being a well-regarded prospect, is still in his mid-20s, and carries a career .343/.451/.545 batting line in Triple-A, so there’s reason to hope he could yet break through.
Toro does have a minor league option remaining, so it’s not a lock that he’ll open the ’23 season on the Brewers’ roster, but he’ll head to Spring Training competing for time at either second base or third base. Both he and Luis Urias have ample experience at both positions, but the ideal defensive alignment would be Toro at third base and Urias at second base. Of course, it’s possible that the Brewers will deepen their infield mix with further moves this offseason, and top infield prospect Brice Turang could factor into the mix at second base early in the season, too, after hitting .286/.360/.412 in Triple-A last season.
In all likelihood, the trade is just one amid a series of moves for both clubs involved. The Mariners were open to adding another outfield bat even before trading Winker, and they could now even more clearly accommodate a notable bat in left field or at designated hitter. The Brewers, meanwhile, have focused thus far on trimming the margins of the payroll and extracting some modest value for players whom they feel they’re able to replace in-house (e.g. Wong, Hunter Renfroe).
It’s no doubt been a frustrating start to the winter for many Milwaukee fans, but the Brewers have thus far moved on from players who were controllable through 2023 only. They’ve scaled back payroll to an extent in doing so, and the question will now be one of how — or if — they reallocate those dollars. It’s possible they’ll even turn and flip Winker to another club, but they’ve not yet shown any indication of a full-on rebuild, so at some point it seems likely the Brewers will make some at-least modest upgrades to the roster.
Jon Heyman of the New York Post was first to report the Brewers and Mariners were in discussions about a trade involving Wong and Winker. Ken Rosenthal of the Athletic reported the Mariners were acquiring Wong for Winker and Toro. Jeff Passan of ESPN reported the Brewers were including roughly $1.75MM in the deal.
Images courtesy of USA Today Sports.
Go Sosa!
A Winker for a Wong?
Just thought of something he is going from 1 ex Seattle team to the newer Seattle team. Hopefully he has a brighter future here than the Pilots did.
Can finally put to rest all the Torres for Kirby nonsense!
That’s part of the silver lining.
I’m glad Seattle didn’t cough up any prospects in this swap, but it’s so underwhelming. Hopefully they’ll get couple of stellar OF bats and tighten up the pitching further.
Look at the bigger picture. What is the Mariners need? A big bat. What position did they have open prior to the deal? 2B. So they were stuck having to overpay for a middle infield impact bat, one of four total.
Post deal? Dipoto moved Winkers production to 2B. Mariners biggest need is still an impact bat, but what position do they need it at? DH/OF/1B – where there’s 10 times the number of available bats than infield.
It’s a really smart way of shifting the playing field.
By moving Winker we can bring in a Josh Bell to be DH or sign Nimmo to play LF. We could even bring back Haniger to play OF and DH. There are many ways to improve on last years lineup.
You can’t just look at it as Wong vs. free agent shortstops, though. Surely there were other options, and we don’t know what the price tags for those SSs or alternatives are/were (yet).
Seattle is trying to get past a Houston club that just won the World Series and has arguably made themselves better already. The gap between them isn’t small and Seattle only had a few open areas where they could close that gap.
Wong doesn’t really move the needle. One fan, correctly, IMO, suggested it was ‘treading water’. They didn’t need just one bat, they needed three or four. Getting Teoscar was a solid move, but they still lack true star-power. They can still add, and will, but they really needed to max-out every area of need.
I’m reserving definitive judgement until we see how everything plays out, but I’m not encouraged by the comments suggesting there has to be opportunity for one of Kelenic/Trammell/Marlowe. Nimmo may no longer be a target (I’m assuming he was) if they’re more interested in platooning LF and Bell never made sense. They’re not likely going to commit to a DH/1B type. They wouldn’t have a true fourth outfielder as Moore is expected to platoon 2B with Wong and Haggerty will likely be used off the bench for his speed, rather than in any kind of regular, or even semi-regular role.
They’ll likely target another outfielder. They should target two, and get the best two possible outside of Judge. I don’t think Haniger is likely returning, but if he was one of them, I would be delighted.
There’s still a lot of offseason, but one thing is clear: All the talk about spending when the time was right and the World Series being the ultimate goal has been exactly that: talk. We’re not seeing the actions to back that up.
Quick reminder to Mariner fans: The team has been around for 46 years and they’re the only team to have never even made it to a World Series. Ask yourselves if you honestly think the team as it stands now has a legitimate shot. The honest answer is ‘NO”.
They have work to do.
And it’s worth noting that they’ll have to do this all over again next offseason as Kolten and Teoscar will be free agents.
Wong will be the 6th primary second baseman for Seattle since moving on from Canó. The others were Gordon, Long, Moore, Toro, and Frazier. So, 2024 will likely feature the 7th, and the 2024 middle-infield free agent class isn’t pretty.
They’ll likely have to turn to trade yet again. There are zero near-ready internal options. This kind of turnover doesn’t exactly help with team chemistry, either.
You’re missing my point. Yes they do have work to do. But now they a zillion more options in which they will make the team better because of filling the need at 2B. The reason Jerry won’t sign any of the Big 4 SS has to do with the “next crest” in 2026 of players that need to be extended(Raleigh, Gilbert, Kirby). He spoke about this two days ago on KJR. Talks never progressed with any of the SS. So I don’t think it just a necessary amount of money. They said they don’t fit the organization. That could be any number of things.
Haniger, Bell, and Nimmo are all examples. I didn’t mean for you to take it literally. It was an example of them having a lot more options in acquiring OF/1B/DH types than middle infielders, which let’s face it, there aren’t very many of to begin with. And Seattle isn’t outbidding Philadelphia for one, it would never happen. And as soon as Judge re-signs in NY, there’s going to be a bidding war between SF and Minnesota for Correa. That’s 3 teams right there. Not to mention LAD, BOS, ATL, and CHC all stating that they want a SS. Seattle would never outbid these teams. It’d be foolish to in my opinion anyways.
Now where we do agree is they can go put and get a couple of bats in the OF. It’ll be a lot easier doing that now that 2B is filled.
I feel like Dipoto and Hollander and looking for short term, stopgap pieces to fill out the roster that don’t necessarily affect the budget beyond 2026. While waiting around for their farm to develop, and then bring up a position player at that spot of need and sign them to a hometown long term extension. Wong fits that plan. A Michael Conforto I could see fitting that plan. And you’re also right about us needing 2 OF. I could not agree more. I also like the idea of going after P Kodai Senga for the 5th spot in the rotation as well.
Good stuff, I think we agree on a lot. It just sounds like the M’s are not interested in going the years or dollars on a SS, and that could be a mistake on their part. We’ll see.
I agree. Hopefully it works out with Wong and we can extend him for a couple of years until Young is ready. It’s going to be awhile for Celestin. Maybe another answer presents itself mid season. But yeah, this is definitely just a band aid.
I just don’t think Wong actually fills what was needed at 2B. I think they really needed to do better.
Yeah, something is going to have to give. I would have preferred Torres. But at what price were they asking? At least we don’t have to watch Winker and Toro anymore. But you’re right, they do need better than Kolten Wong. If this trade allows us to sign two impact hitting OF’s then I’d say it was worth it IMO.
We’ll see.
I’d like to see them tighten up everywhere possible. Two outfielders, a starter….maybe move Flexen, but use Marco from the ‘pen? I’m not going to speculate too much more right now. I just hope we see more–a lot more.
Not having to watch Winker and Toro is golden. And I love the idea of signing Senga, as I think it would allow them to get whatever they can get in trades using both Flexen and Gonzales as trade chips.
Ben10 best summary of the deal I have read so far.
Yeah, I caught the interview and the recaps. I’m not buying what he said about 2026 payroll concerns. They’re nonsense.
First, the arbitration estimates aren’t going to be restrictive. Take a look a the projections for Woodruff & Fried. Both are second-year eligible for 2023. They’ll make less than Teoscar. Only the true aces get elite money and typically just in their final arbitration years. Catchers get even less (unfortunately). Seattle’s arbitration-eligible players aren’t going to be a problem. And Seattle may have better options by then. Some of the current players may be traded. That’s a long time from now.
Ray may opt-out after 2024, but even if he stays, he’ll be in his last year as will Crawford, and the possibility of trading them exists (not this year, obviously) as well. White’s salary is a club-option. The only commitments beyond 2026 are Julio and Luis. That’s a good thing.
Second, Seattle has a number of prospects in the lower minors that should serve as solid depth, if not regulars. Cole Young, Harry Ford, Gabriel Gonzalez… these are players that will likely help address future needs at a minimal cost. There will be more pitching arriving before then.
To be clear, I’m not criticizing you, so I really hope you don’t think that. We’re more or less on the same page. We all want to see a World Series. I’m just not pleased with what we’re hearing and seeing. I’m not as optimistic at the moment.
It may be that Turner and Correa, for example, weren’t interested in Seattle. Their asking prices may be beyond ridiculous. Those were the only two that I believe fit Seattle well, so if a realistic deal wasn’t possible, so be it. But was there even an offer? I’d like to know what the asking prices for other middle infielders was (is) as well.
I know a lot of fans think Seattle can’t compete with larger market teams, but there should be more flexibility than people realize. Again, there has to be a line, but rough estimates of 2022 revenue based on 2021 figures and increases due to better attendance figures suggest there is in fact a lot of room. Given the lack of infield options next offseason, getting a fixed piece this offseason really would have been ideal. 10 years, 340 million would be ridiculous. But an 8 or 9 year deal with a similar AAV? I don’t know. I’m incredibly curious to see what these SSs get. The bigger teams looking for upgrades already have extensive payrolls and could easily blow past the threshold, so they’ll have their limits as well, even if they have deeper pockets.
Wong is a good player. Again, he just doesn’t move the needle and things may actually get tougher with next year’s thin free agency class.. I didn’t miss your point, I just disagree.. And I know you were just throwing some names out there. I just don’t see a lot of great options and there really isn’t any room for slack.
But let’s see how this all plays out. One thing about Jerry’s Mariners is that you can expect the unexpected. We haven’t seen anything really shocking, yet. I may not be optimistic at the moment, but I’m still reserving judgement until we see what the team looks like out of spring.
In a vacuum, the cost for Wong was fine. But Seattle didn’t have to keep Winker or Toro. They could have non-tendered Toro and just ate the 8.25m due to Winker if they really had to. The Mets cut Cano loose with far more owed. Even smaller market teams cut players loose when they simply don’t fit anymore.
Let’s see what they do about LF & the fourth outfielder/DH. Tightening up the rotation and bullpen would help as well. I know fans are speculating over Reynolds, and understandably so. I don’t know if he’s actually acquirable, but his desire to get out of Pittsburgh is certainly interesting.
One thing to consider is there record last season when scoring at least 4 runs was ridiculously good. Winker, Haniger and Frazier were literally no help getting to those 4 runs. Now we replace there non production with Hernandez, Wong and and another outfielder. Further development from Julio and Raleigh etc. With our pitching staff and routinely getting 4 runs and more I think Seattle will be a handful every night.
I think Seattle fans will be very happy with this trade. Milwaukee will miss Wong’s defense despite his off ’22 season defensively.
Stevil I enjoyed your post and am right there with ya. Is this a bad move? No, it’s certainly not. But it doesn’t move the needle around here much. Especially since any dreams of the Julio Mitch and Teoscar mega outfield (as unlikely as that was to begin with) are now totally shattered.
If you consider that Fraziers season last year was mostly the result of bad luck; I don’t think the team is THAT much better off with Wong than Frash. Do I consider him an upgrade? Yes. It’s an upgrade. But not enough of one to move the needle.
So now we basically are a wash with last years Team, except we’ve lost some depth and a great bullpen arm in Swanson. There is much work left to do and there are very few excuses left for this front office to use. I still feel as though Jerry is playing with a handicap. I’d like to think I’m wrong; but I’m still not seeing the type of competitiveness; as far as spending: from ownership that will get Seattle to the dance.
Sodo,,
I agree this might not be a huge needle mover and I am afraid Frazier will have a bounce back year and be what we thought he was. That can’t be taken into account not fair to Jerry.
I also do not think we are done. There are a lot of talent still out there. Do I honestly think we get both Japanese players? No not really do I think we get another OFer yes. Could be Yoshida or not.
People say his power won’t transfer I watched a bunch of his at bat’s last night. That power will transfer but will he be able to hit MLB pitching? He would be like a AAA player that raked and got called up. IMHO Both players will be interesting to watch.
FWIW this is the second team now where Winker has been called out for his work ethic. When Winker was with the Reds he gave an interview where he said one of the vets on the team called him out for not working harder on D. He never mentioned who that was but it was pretty clear it was Votto. Seeing a pattern here??
Here comes the Jesse Winker rumors now. Brewers will not hold onto him. He makes too much money.
Guardians response to offer to Seattle for Winker
… “We Tu Lo “
But i thought Winker and half the Mariners good prospects were going to Cleveland for Gimenez?
Stupid is as stupid does….Mariners
Stupid because they got the player they obviously wanted or stupid because they didn’t gift the Guardians a haul in your fantasy trade?
I think this is a great trade for Milwaukee. Winker had a terrible season in Seattle but is a prime candidate for a rebound season and Toro has the talent to be a great utility IF / spot starter. Wong is a good player but he’s definitely on the decline. This is not nearly as lopsided as the Renfroe for JBJ deal last year but I believe Milwaukee will see the better of this deal in 2023 as Winker is clearly more comfortable in the NL.
Winker was a league switcher. He’ll be be much better in the NL
Not to mention that Seattle is not exactly a hitter’s paradise. Hitting in Miller Park (I refuse to call it the other name) will bring his bat back to life. And I think the shift going away will probably add 10-20 points to his BA as well.
The right field porch at T-Mobile park is very friendly to lefties. It made no difference for Winker. He’s ass.
Toro has hit .206 with little power or speed over 4 minor league seasons and hasn’t faired well in MLB either. Not seeing the upside with him. As for Winker, I expect his he ll start making more contact, but he’s not very durable. In 6 seasons he has once played a high of 136 games in a season. With both him and Wong hitting FA in 2024 this was likely a steal for Mariners. The 2B FA market is incredibly thin this year, they got a Gold Glove 2B for an expendable OF and an IF who can’t hit.
@Tigers3232 Excellent summary. Especially w/ the money being equal, it’s clear who got the best player in the deal, who has actually produced at a high level.
Meanwhile Winker has had one good full season, was actually below replacement level last year, and at best will be a DH, which has its own cost in removing the slot through which players can be rotated and rested.
As for Toro he’s a backup MI whose biggest selling point is modest power, or ‘power,’ given he’s never slugged more than .385, and his career OBP is a horrifying .276.
@jackStraw yeah I just don’t get it. OF is much easier to replace especially with current 2B market. Just seems like an odd move that sets them back.
It is a great trade for Milwaukee. I am a Reds fan, and Winker was one of my favorite players. I followed him from the minor leagues. He was not healthy last year. It was not the normal Winker. If he is healthy, he will hit around .300 with close to a .400 OBP.
He has played 136 games once in his 6 tear career. He has had one good season at the plate of those 6. Sorry but at this point 2021 is by far the outlier of his career not the norm for him.
Eh, I think they not only hold onto him but give him a 6/$125 mil extension. He just had surgery, and MKE knows that’s the best time to lock guys up (see: Yelich deal).
Feel like they could’ve gotten a much better return. But I still see this as a “wait and see” trade
Deal actually seems fair for both sides actually. Wong has his warts too, mainly cannot hit lefties.
I agree.
Mariners didn’t need Winker with addition to Tesocar, Toro is a decent complimentary player, but nothing overly special. Great defense in Wong with a mediocre bat. Winker is probably Milwaukee’s best power threat – either him or Tellez since Yelich is a shell of his former self.
I could see the Brewers going after someone like Justin Turner to round out their lineup.
Adames is definitely the Brewers best power threat as the roster currently stands
Couldn’t we say that about Winker? “Shell of his former self” or is AL pitching just that much better?
I’m an M’s fan so I watched at least 200 Winker ab’s last year and they were miserable
Winker admittedly was dealing with back problems all season long and kept playing through it. I don’t think we saw the same player because of that. If he’s a turd again next year, then yes – I’d say he’s a shell of his former self. Yelich also has back problems and hasn’t been the same player for several years.
Good call on Adames, but that dude needs to relax on the K’s.. I know strikeouts are more accepted these days, but 166 K’s for an athletic player like him.. make an adjustment, use better pitch selection, sacrifice some power and become a better overall hitter. OBP needs to come up – a lot.
I think we already saw Winker’s best a couple of years ago in hitter friendly Cincinnati. Plus he can’t stay healthy. I still laugh when the one poster on here said he’s as good as Teoscar Hernandez.
A’sfaninUK all of his posts are laugh out loud funny
I muted him. That guy has no idea what he’s talking about and he’s just a negative jackwagon.
I don’t mute anyone. They need to know they aren’t smart and or wrong about something and I let them know. If they have me muted it’s because they acknowledge I am right and much smarter than them. I also make 18 burner accounts to make sure the kronic blockers are told they’re wrong once a day as well. I work for the people.
I can mute faster than you can create accounts. I’m more than willing to put that to the test.. MUTED! 🙂
I don’t mind the whole playing devil’s advocate for the sake of a good debate, but sometimes it just gets out of hand
RyanD44
“Toro is a decent complimentary player, but nothing overly special”.
That’s just about verbatim, to what the Brewers thought about Nelson Cruz when they traded him at 25 years old. (Oops).
Well that was true.. and then he met steroids.. got caught, and learned how to better hide his steroids from testing.. much like many players do these days..
Players wouldn’t still be getting caught time to time if the system was really effective.
@Ryan he’s played 136 games once in 6 seasons. 3 of those 6 seasons he played well under 100 games. Durability a huge issue. 2B incredibly thin, Mariners made out huge I’d say.
I have been a fan of Winkeer’s, but I’m really starting to think the one season was a bit of an anomaly. Hopefully I’m wrong.
@Iver, I see I’m not the only one who has noticed. I ve seen quite a few posts of his now that he makes flat out false statements as fact.
iverbure:you’re a gentleman, patriot, and scholar. Good work.
@Shawn, Toro has hit .206 over 4 minor league seasons with 26 HRs and 10 SBs. And has done even worse while in MLB. Just not seeing the upside with him.
It’s amazing, with all the data we have, that people believe K’s for hitters mean anything. Since DPs don’t occur when hitters’ K, the cost of a K is 1/50th of a run in today’s run environment. All else being equal, the guy who strikes out 100 times more than his identical but contact hitting peer, costs his team 2 runs over the course of a season.
It’s also the case that K’s align with better hitting. It’s simply the cost of hitting for power. The best half of MLB hitters will always K more than the lower half.
@Shawnpe Which was odd, given Cruz in 2004 and 2005 had put up monster seasons in the minors and was doing it again in Nashville in 2006.
I agree. Well said! Do you think Yelich was a user or is his back really that bad?
Most lefty-hitting batters don’t hit lefties too well, but Wong has always hit .250 to .260 overall, and that is not too shabby at all.
Disagree. Winker was awful last year and is an awful defender. And he is having 2 surgeries in the offseason including neck surgery. Bad deal for the Brewers.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. Winker was a cancer, and the fact that he was having non-life threatening surgeries during the M’s post season run speaks volumes about his character. Nobody wanted him around, and he obliged them.
I think the timing of the surgeries could have been for him to keep face. Jerry could have told him you will not be on the playoff roster so get the surgeries so you will be healed up for whatever team you play for. Seems he could have waited a few weeks.
Samuel
What makes you think Seattle has no money? The new owners said when they bought the team they bought into the rebuild which is on track taking Covid year. They said they were going to build a winner and money would not be an issue.
I have to imagine their profits were pretty high this year and will be more so going on. I don’t blame Seattle for truly not going after one of the top SS this year. Everyone is down on JP but he came off a GG season and then had a bad year. He struggled at the plate which IMHO crept into the OF.
People always think they know what Jerry is going to do. He never ceases to surprise us. Which the surprise should be we are surprised what he does. With his track record here and what the owners have said I will trust them. Samuel I have no idea where you are getting your info but local media is more reliable to me.
YOOO WONGGG
Winker’s gonna rake this season back in the NL Central.
And contract year
If even a fraction of what was reported by Ryan Divish (cited in the article above) is true, then I doubt it. Here’s a few sentences from it; “he” is referring to Winker:
“I don’t think he puts in the time to be better defensively or to have a better arm or any of the work that should be done. And really it is counter to what has made this team great. The last few years, this team prepares more than any team I’ve ever seen on a daily basis to be ready to play that day, and he doesn’t. He doesn’t always. It’s just not there. And it’s noticeable. Players notice it.”
I mean, yikes. If true, that’s a major red flag.
rct;
Reds fans saw that in person – along with other things – and posted it on MLBTR when the trade to acquire Winker was made.
This is not something that suddenly happened in 2022.
Wow, it’s actually that well known? That’s beyond disturbing at the MLB level in a high performing clubhouse.
I kept hearing about how good of a teammate he was. I brought up the time he got in Julio’s face after he called him off a ball.
The consistent arguing strikes that his great eye was dead wrong on. The brawl he instigated over what? Some guys razzing him?
I for one am glad he is gone and will not miss him. He could have a stellar year and still will be fine. I don’t think that will happen we will see.
With Wong and his D troubles I bet he will be better if he puts the work in with the rest of the infield and Manny. They work pretty hard and love it from what comes out of them.
Reds fan here, and I just wanted to say that in Cincinnati, Jesse Winker raked, and I thought he was well-loved! He wasn’t lazy, he was fun and laid-back, and I’m not being facetious. I was really happy for him and Castellanos when they were voted All-Stars… and that, btw, was barely more than a year ago!
I predict a big bounce-back for Winker, and I wish him the best. Not sure how/why it all went bad in Seattle.
Hey we need to call out Samuel for outright lying to our slack-jawed faces. Hey Samuel please show us those sources from Cincinnati that warned M’s fans of Winker’s lazy-a$$ disposition…wait, what , you don’t have any?? Yeah thought so, because everything I read at the time from Reds fans was -nothing- but positive vibes and well wishes for Winker. Saying how much we will love him. You are better than this my man…but you’ve reached a new low.
Seems like a good trade for both teams. I still think Toro could be something legit and more than just the AAAA player he’s been so far.
He hasn’t even been a Triple A player. He’s hit .206 over 4 minor league seasons with little power or speed.
That’s not correct. Toro’s hit. 275/.370/.450 in the minors
.465*
I stand corrected. Misread it .206 is his career MLB stats. Still do not find Toro all that intriguing. With weak 2B market I’d prefer Wong and seek OF help elsewhere.
Definitely fair. I just wanted to point out that his minor league track record could suggest some promise despite being underwhelming as a pro so far.
You also need to add in that for much of the year Toro would go 3 to 4 days between at bat’s. Some can do it but hard for a hitter especially a young hitter to get in a groove. You will like his attitude and free and easy way he is. Reds said this about Winker so hope it doesn’t to into that. Send him to AA for a few months then to AAA. Let him have a season of playing full-time he could be the best part of the deal.
Well, that’s a surprise.
Bingo!
Good have done worse.
And it may not be over yet. Still could use a lefty good-hitting corner outfielder.
I agree, Fred. I don’t think we’re done.
Omg really!! I’m fine with trading Wong and don’t mind that Toro is involved. But not Winkler. Especially when there are complaints about his conditioning and his clubhouse distraction. Man I hope they flip him someplace like Colorado.
He’s owed 8 million, I’m gonna assume Winkler won’t be a brewer very long.
They’re not going to beat that price in free agency for a decent outfield bat. .If the Brewers can’t afford a starting outfielder making $8M (while acknowledging that they’re stuck with Yelich’s contact for now), then they might as well give the NL Central to the Cardinals and start rebuilding now.
Then why give up Renfroe? He was a better player than Winker, and I dont think he will be more expensive?
The most surprising part of the deal is that the Brewers are sending $$ along with Wong.
Renfroe is projected to make over $11M, and it’s highly debatable which is the better player. Renfroe has a higher floor, but Winker has a much higher ceiling.
Not really. MLB Trade values have it balanced out completely perfect.
Yeah, who cares about Wrinker!
Let’s hope not! Getting rid of winker by the end of ’22 would be nice. Then again, how many other teams want him in their clubhouse?
Being outted in the media, traded, and facing the final season before free agency should do wonders for your work ethic.
I am surprised to see Winker go to the Brewers because he doesn’t seem like a very good fit because of his attitude. So, perhaps they do flip him. I’m sure they’re going to have buyers at the Winter Meetings. I’d be surprised if he remains in MIL for the season though. He will probably try to fight the stuffed animal on the HR slide.
That’s not an animal. That’s a man who got very big on beer. And sausages race.
It would probably be a fair fight either way.
Perfect fit in Seattle.
Milwaukee is one of the most interesting franchises to watch this offseason.
Guess Toro to play third and Urias to 2b.
Guess this should end any talk of the brewers trading any of their remaining big time players.
Hopefully by May Turang is the full time 2B. Urias to s utility role.
He seems like a change of scenery guy, Urias. Hasnt really put it all together. I’d love his change of scenery to be in Baltimore, though. Maybe his brother can get “it” outta him.
Man the O’s have no use for Luis.
We don’t really have room for Ramon anymore.
Turang won’t hit like Urias. He needs a season as the utility guy before even thinking about starting him. Urias hit 7 more HRs in a supposedly down season than Wong in over 100 fewer ABs. If he ever gets a full season, he’ll be the rare 2B that hits 25 or 30.
Luis urias is not good and we don’t need a 2B hitting bombs. We need one to hit for average and get on base.
That’s so old school. And so wrong.
Baseball analysis proves that HRs are the way to win games. One swing of the bat. Especially when you have great pitching. Urias is not bad at all.
His OPS+ was 115 last year. That’s WELL above league average.
Turang has bust written all over him to me. As do Weimer and Frelick.
i don’t know heard Tigers are interested in Urias.
My dream of trading Weimer for Isaac Paredes seems dead.
Toro should not be an everyday player.
man how little value winker has. had a much better season two years ago but one down season and he is valued like garbage
It was wifely reported there were clubhouse conflicts in Sea with Wink
He apparently has a bad attitude and is a clubhouse problem. Mariners couldn’t wait to get rid of him.
Winker’s value has fallen, but History repeats itself. M’s thought they needed to improve 2B and get a power bat in the OF and they acquire Adam Frazier and Jesse Winker, 2021 All Stars with combined 2021 WAR of 5.8. They combined for a WAR of 0.6 in 2022. M’s again think they need (and rightly so) to improve 2B and get a power bat and they acquire Kolten Wong & Teoscar Hernandez combined 2022 WAR of 5.9 (eerily similar to 2021 Frazier & Winker)…….so let’s try the same strategy and hope for a different outcome……..yeah, that would be insanity. All the talk of getting one of the premier four SS’s? or being in on Judge? …..nope, let’s try the same strategy and hope for a different outcome.
So your saying don’t bring in any free agents or make any trades because of what happened last year? Alrighty then. That’s a first!
Frazier, Winker, Hernández, Wong etc are short terms contracts. The downside risk is minimal. Lower short term upside but at pennies on the dollar compared to the dollar commitment needed for just one premier FA.
That’s not insanity if you’re trying with different players. Determining who is the better fit on the ballclub as opposed to expecting different results with the same players to magically get better are completely different approaches.
Great trade. I don’t think I could stand another season of watching Winker walk to first base every time he makes contact and then go into the field and turn singles into triple. I’m gonna miss toro, it’s too bad he couldn’t find his footing in Seattle, and I hope he does well in Milwaukee. I think Wong is a great fit for this team.
Crawford and Wong up the middle? What an offense juggernaut
Pretty much what I was thinking.
I think you meant to write “defensive juggernaut”
Of course if the Mariners had two bad defenders up the middle you would then complain they have no defense.
A’sfaninuk: Has defense been the issue? Or do the Mariners struggle to score runs? Use your brain
Could be a big deal honestly. With the shift banned, good defense up the middle will be even more important. Still need a better bat though.
Big deal? At 10 million they might as well have kept Frazier
Probably could have gotten Frazier for cheaper than 10 million, honestly…
5 million probably gets that done
Larry;
Very likely true. Who knows, maybe Wong is the missing piece to another big trade that helps the Mariners address their offense in a bigger way.
Wait and see what Toronto gives him…..
Endersgame; I hope so
@Endersgame with the $ the Brewers are sending over it is break even between Winker and Wong, plus it opens a spot on the 40 man for Seattle.
So does this mean the Mariners are out of the SS bidding?
the should sign a wight. wight to wong to white
Mariners never were in SS bidding! Kicking tires was as close as they came!
Yes they are. SF, PHI, CHC, ATL, BOS, LAD, and MIN would all outbid us.
Wong just had his best two offensive years. I enjoyed him at the plate more than most Brewers. Renfroe, Adames and Tellez were the only other must see ABs.
14 and 15 homer seasons in Milwaukee, translates to about 10 in Seattle. Especially for someone who has warming-track power.
This is a fair trade. I like what Milwaukee got. Get a relatively young player and swap a one year contract for another. Wong is more valuable but overall it balances out decently. They could either trade Winker this offseason or at deadline if they are out of it. If he is raking and they are out of it he would be a huge trade chip.
Can we call Boston about Winker please
Wong took a huge step back defensively in 2022, and is essentially a platoon player. They robbed Seattle blind.
Well M’s traded a platoon DH and AAA platoon player so not sure how they got robbed blind. Neither player would be on M’s 26 man roster on opening day.
@JJJHS not sure about how they were robbed. Pretty fairly even trade. There was no way Winker was going to come back to Seattle next year with the clubhouse and production issues. I liked Toro for the bench depth, but he M’s already have two players in Haggerty and Moore that are similar and more productive.
It’s a fresh start for Winker and hopefully he runs with it. Gives Seattle a very good defensive infield and a needed lefty bat.
They need to sign or trade for another LH hitting OF to help balance the lineup.
Yeah Winker and toro are total superstars /s
Robbed blind?? Seattle shed dead weight and got paid to do it while filling a need. Tell me you don’t know baseball without telling me you don’t know baseball.
It was an even trade. Which is why Milwaukee had to kick over cash to make it work.
I feel like Milwaukee is paying us to take out our trash! Lol
Your spot on about his defense but it’s only one season to go on and players usually really rev up for their contract year both defensively and offensively. Dansby Swanson was far better, for instance, this year defensively. Who knows if it will remain such a big part of his game?
It was really bad bro. I can’t think of anyone off the top of my head that was worse. Maybe Nelson Cruz. At least Boomstick had an arm.
It’s been steadily declining since 2019.
I mean, even if Wong were a platoon player, he’d be the part of the platoon that faced right handed pitching, meaning he’d have more playing time. As long as his defense gets back on track, he’s still an every day player. I don’t know about seattles lineup, but unless there’s another left handed bat in the lineup near him, there’s not going to be many pitching changes just for wong with the 3 pitcher minimum. So if his defense comes back and he hits at the same level, he’s still an every day.
This is a nice deal for both sides, Wong is a huge add for the Mariners, although who knows what his bat in the ALW looks like, at least the D wont sleep.
This trade is all Wong for Seattle.
I was hoping the Yankees would trade Torres for Winker. That would’ve helped with the infield logjam and given us a regular left fielder besides
I like Winker as a bounce-back candidate but Gleyber should get a surer return than someone like Winker. His defense is brutal too, not sure how much any team wants him playing in the OF that much. Ideally he should be a DH-first OF-2nd guy.
You don’t want Winker in the field.. You just don’t.
They would never make that trade without significantly more than Winker and Toro. Torres is far superior and extra year of club control.
Please, please be more to this off-season than Wong. I get that it’s early, but Dipoto’s comments about payroll and future payroll paint a picture of a guy that isn’t willing to compete for free agents.
It’s more of the impact of a 7-9 year contract has on payroll
Except the window is clearly the next 4 years. You need to maximize that with elite talent, not role players on expiring contracts so we do this all over again next year. You NEED to take the risk when you’re in the right spot to do so.
I like Winker’s bounceback chances. Would’ve liked seeing him in LF for the Yankees (though I wouldn’t give Gleyber Torres for him 1-for-1).
Winker is pretty much a DH only. He was the worst defensive OF in Seattle I have ever seen, I know the M’s have a big outfield but dude took terrible angles on anything hit to him.
You’ve never seen Winker play D then if you want him anywhere on the field.
Brilliant trade. A return to form from Jesse Winker would be equal (maybe better) than Renfroe, and 25-year-old Abraham Toro to boot? Well done, Matt Arnold.
This was about Toro. They see something there and maybe a change of scenery will do him well like it did adames
I also like it for Wong, able to play on the west coast, closer to his native Hawaii.
LOL
Hawaii is 2,600 miles away.
CLOSER.
It’s more than 4600 from Milwaukee, so it’s almost cut in half.
And one direct flight from there.
Spike Hyzer;
Good point.
Heck, if he’s only 2.600 miles away he can fly home on off days.
@Samuel there is also a huge population of people who used to live in Hawaii in the area(myself included), a large Asian population, and “real” teriyaki was invented here curiocity.com/seattle-teriyaki-history/.
Well, if he hops a quick flight after a game, maybe. Then a day with the folks, then fly back the next morning for the game after the day off. Unless he can get a day off and spend two with the rents!
What a win win trade. Winkler apparently wasn’t a fit with M’s and they had no solution to get Toro going so this cost them absolutely nothing to get Wong.
Brewers probably seen something in Toro and Winkler can definitely hit. Could get 2 starters from one here.
Bingo! Toro is defensively flexible, but it was pretty clear from watching him last year that he just can’t hit. Maybe that will change, but the M’s just couldn’t afford to keep his shaky bat in the lineup or even off the bench.
st louis should have never let wong hit free agency
Seem fine with Edman and Gorman
When it came to adding hitting at an infield position, I think a lot of Seattle fans were hoping for a lot more, but I think this trade = addition by subtraction for the Mariners. For whatever reasons, Winker just didn’t fit in Seattle, but I think he should do fine in Milwaukee. Toro may still have a chance to be a pretty decent player; he just seemed lost at the plate with the M’s. I don’t know about Wong’s glove, but his OBP is passable and he can still steal some bases. This isn’t a bad trade at first glance… but I find it underwhelming considering that Seattle is trying to catch Houston, and I believe they could have done more with a free agent signing.
The 2b market is weak. If you don’t like Jean you are in trouble. SS market is expensive. So unless they want to add a 200 300 million ss not much they could do.
That is why I find the most questionable about this trade. 2B market is terrible and the return is an OF who can’t stay healthy and a utility IF who can’t hit. Feel like they could ve got much more for Wong in current market.
Probably really like something with Toro. I know Seattle really made out. They had to run Winkler out of town and Toro wasn’t hitting for them.
I just don’t get it. Seems they’d have been better off keeping Renfroe then they would not have needed to make this trade. Renfroe s power has been far more consistent than Winker’s as well.
I got the Renfroe trade. Cut salary and stockpile some arms that can be improved. Easy to replace a corner outfielder. The Hader trade I loved, nice prospects for a 2 month rental. I know they could have had him this year but for what he costs they would have traded him anyways and not a ton of surplus value. Will give the benefit of doubt wait and see on this trade.
I got the Renfroe trade originally. But now they have replaces him with Winker who is more expensive and lost a 2B. At this point they should seriously consider trading Burnes and Woodruff if they re doing this quasi rebuild or whatever it is.
We could’ve just kept Frazier.
Frazier wasn’t good with them and Wong was free. They could still trade Wong and sign Frazier.
Frazier picked a bad time to have a down year. M’s would have extended him if he put up numbers like he did 2-3 years ago. His 2022 rehearsal with SEA did nothing to inspire DiPoto to even make a token effort to keep him around.
Another offseason, another player the league is playing keep away from the White Sox with.
So after pissing off the Mariners players and their fans when he traded Kendall Graveman to the Astros with the justification of acquiring Abraham Toro Dipoto ships him off to Milwaukee for Kolten Wong?! And Jesse Winker had a down year but he should be able to put it together this year. This will be a lop sided win for the Brewers.
Slothcliff Hokum & Rumors2godsears;
What you gentlemen might want to consider is that the flamboyant Jerry Dipoto is out of ammunition.
He built a remarkable young starting pitching staff. But unfortunately, his farm system hardly has anything left in it. Julio is everything fans hoped for; but Jarred Kelenic is not anywhere near Julio as a performer (the veteran Mets FO people that advised Brodie on that trade knew that the supposed can’t miss superstar was hardly that). Trammell was a can’t miss guy that 2 organizations gave up on.
What I’m saying is that the Mariners are what they are – and that’s a very good team. They have little left to trade, and their payroll is pretty much at the breaking point. The big steps they made the past few years are not going to be repeated any time soon. It’s time for the manager and coaches to make the players they have better. Those players are mostly young and can get better. And I would suggest that if one of the top 3 starting pitchers has a major injury it can mean trouble. Your team needs more depth.
I don’t thing payroll is at breaking point
They have 3-4 minor pitchers that are close
And some good skilled players at the A levels; 3 years away kind
OF- Marlow, Clase, Delouch have good skill set and could get shot
Marlowe will be on the team either right out of Spring Training or shortly after. Currently without trading any SP, they are 9 deep there with 6 returning starters from last year and Hancock, Dollard, and Miller basically ready. Their bullpen was great with everyone returning and plenty of depth in the minors. What they dont have depth at is in the infield in the minors.
Thanks for taking our trash!
You realize that the Brewers were leaning towards declining Wong’s option, and only picked it up to trade him, right?
This is a win win trade. Winker hits close to his career numbers in a hitters park and he’s one of the best bats in the Brewers lineup. Worth it for a guy that was never coming back.
How does this change the Mariners goals for the rest of the offseason? They are more balanced as far as righty vs lefty now, only hole left is LF, if you don’t think you can count on Jarred Kelenic or Taylor Trammell. Maybe this opens up more room to bring Mitch Haniger back?
C – Cal Raleigh (switch)
1B – Ty France (right)
2B – Kolton Wong (left)
SS – JP Crawford (left)
3B – Eugenio Suarez (right)
LF – Jarred Kelenic/Taylor Trammell (left/left)
CF – Julio Rodriguez (right)
RF – Teoscar Hernandez (right)
I still think the M’s needs more out of LF. Maybe Kelenic can turn it around, but I think of Trammell as a 4th OF who can play all 3 spots.
while not a prototypical left fielder, Swaggerty has earned an extended audition in left. at the very least a rotation of Swags and Moore would provide a big improvement over Stinker in terms of defense. I also believe that the duo would be at least league-average on offense.
Don’t count Cade Marlowe out of the OF mix.
They did put him on the playoff taxi squad
For a reason
We need the DH and a LF, I don’t know how we cant squeeze Haniger in there
This deal was more about Toro than Winkler. Guess they see something in Toro and has 4 seasons of team control. Maybe Winkler can get back to hitting decently like he did in Cincinnati? Who knows
Milwaukee-2208;
The Brewers have 4 young OF’s that should get playing time this year. Plus they’re stuck with Yelich.
It seems that Winkler will be moved to contending team as primarily a DH – one that preferably has a short RF such as the Yankees. It could be this off-season, or the Brewers could hold not him and trade him in-season when a contender either has a n injury to a strong LH hitter they were counting on, or one of their players isn’t hitting.
True. He’s definitely no long term piece. Provides some pop and in a contract year could rake and bring a good return.
Perhaps Winker will strictly DH or in a platoon with Hiura. Or Hiura could be one of the next to be traded.
Winkler has the reputation of being a bad teammate and lazy in his craft. Will be interesting to see how he fits in to the Brewers clubhouse. I am guessing the Brewers did this because they received Toro in the deal. Some talent and control there, but, the talent is untapped so lets see if the Brewers can help him realize that.
Jesse Winker is a very good Player but something seems off with him at least from observing him play at CitiField. ( Waving to the Fans after Making an OF Catch a bit deranged it appears )
The fans at CitiField were riding him all game, so that was his getting even. Not deranged, but shows the fans were in his head, which is weak.
He likes to annoy the fans on the road with this act-distractions was a stated reason why he was traded…
I think the link to baseball reference might be incorrect because when I open it, in the black it says “More Wong Pages.”
Go M’s
Absolutely nothing wong with that move
Now can we resign Hanny? I know Jerry said he’s not spending any money on FA this off-season.
Dipoto never said that
He said that yesterday, that they paid Julio and Castillo and they aren’t going to add any big future contracts so the can pay Raleigh and the other young guys.
He said he was looking at more of 1 or 2 year deals. Conforto fits that description.
How about Conforto, hanny, sign Senga then we ship Marco and Flex out. Winter is done.
Lot’s of bounce back is a no-brainer posts. Yet, the M’s were awfully eager to pull the plug early on two players that cost real capital. Red flags were evident last season. You’ve been warned Crew fans.
Would absolutely laugh if we do a trade with Toronto for Jansen with Winker in it lol.
Pawning off Winker and Toro fills need at 2B and opens up another roster spot. Nimmo or Conforto?
What if Seattle is also gonna do a flip and send Wong somewhere? Possibly to NY?
Toro to the Brewers means Adames will be a Brave
Not a chance.
Win win deal, especially for Ms.
A little surprising. Obviously he fits the M’s need at 2B, but at 32 he doesn’t project as a long term answer.
With their history, I expected the Ms and Rays to work out a deal for one of Tampa’s many infielders. Lowe, Walls, Brujan, Aranda, etc.
Does this mean the Ms are seeking to spend money in FA outside of the SS market? One might have thought them one of the biggest likely spenders.
Arguably they could still seek a LF to compete with Kelenic and a DH.
The article states Toro isn’t arbitration eligible but he will be super 2 at 2 years 149 days.
Win/win here. The brew crew got a slight better return. But the M’s got an everyday 2b they wanted. I’m not a big Wong fan but hey, each is there own.
His 37 wRC+ against lefties suggests he may not be everyday.
The fact that less than 10% of the populace–maybe slightly more in baseball–are lefties means it doesn’t really matter. Since, you know, 90% of ABs are against righties.
Which is still almost every day.
Not sure I agree with that assessment.
The M’s had 6,117 PA last year and the RHP / LHP split was 71 / 29. Not exactly a negligible portion of plate appearances.
And the M’s proportion was tilted more towards LHP than the AL as a whole (74 / 26). Possibly suggesting that the M’s were worse against lefites and other teams knew it!
It’s not negligible, but that itself is a HUGE split. We might say the VAST majority of ABs are always against righties.
I just looked it up, and over history MLB has had 25% lefties, but last year was a league high and record 28%. So right about at that 29% mark your team saw. I bet it was less for some teams.
Which is why platoons mystify my.
You need to be adept at hitting righties, not lefties. And if you are a righty, hitting lefties should then seem like child’s play.
The cash they kicked back evens it out.
Jerry takes out the trash. Love it.
I heard Jerry the other day talking up Winker like no tomorrow. Lol
Certainly on the wong side of the deal.
toro is milwaukees guy.. they dont care about winker..they will trade him or cut him…as a mariner fan..very happy to see winker go…seems like a clubhouse problem very lazy and very poor defense
Not a chance they cut WInker.
Unfortunately!
If they sent $1.75 mil to Seattle (nearly what Wong’s buyout would have been) why on earth would they then turn around and dump the $8+ mil player they got back too? That’d be over $10 mil down the drain.
Maybe they flip him, but it seems risky they’d break even, let alone come out ahead, doing that either.
lol just wait till you see him in the feild…theyll cut him or Dfa him
Not a needle mover either way. Sort of meat and potatoes for pizza – depends on what you like
between acquiring Wong and Hernandez, the M’s have pushed the needle quite a ways. Doing this trade has opened the door for the M’s to acquire Conforto or Nimmo.
ColoradoRider;
You’re not the only one, but let me explain…..
They don’t have a lot more money to spend on payroll.
I kind of agree on where they sit financially. I still think they can nab Conforto, or pick up another middle-tier outfielder via a trade. We still have Marco and Flex as decent trade chips.
They have all the money they need as long as it’s on players that accept 1 or 2 year deals. Like Conforto or maybe Haniger on a 3 year deal. The Wong deal is a wash. They added Hernandez who basically makes what Haniger was making. So basically there right where they were post WS. They have room to bring in 1 or 2 more players.
Past 2026. They can spend on shorter term contracts. That’s when Gilbert, Raleigh, and Kirby will be getting their long term deals.
Looks like GM Jeri unloaded 2 players that were (his) recent bad acquisitions. Out of sight, out of mind I guess. Is Wong that much better than Frazier? Doesn’t really move the neddle much.
“Jeri unloaded 2 players that were recent bad acquisitions..”
Tastes Like Chicken;
Yes. And who made those acquisitions?
No one hits on all trades and signings. The problem I have with Mr. Dipoto is that he keeps doing the same thing – he makes a lot of moves to make a team better, then they hit a wall. And when they do there’s not a lot to trade, the farm system is weak and payroll is maxed out. In short – he’s boxed himself into a corner and is stuck with what he has.
Being the prime baseball Ops guy in MLB is not like being a rotisserie league owner. MLB franchises have to draft and develop players. Acquire players and make them better at all levels. Build a 26 man ML roster that the manager can use to win games multiple ways – and it doesn’t have to be full of stars. Role players can have an important effect on the team winning. Leave enough room in the payroll for additional moves as all teams need them each year as injuries and players having unexpected poor seasons happen.
The key is flexibility – with the players under contract and the payroll. There has to be a Plan B and C and D…… Jerry doesn’t do that well. When his team hits a wall he’ll make 3-4 trades that shuffle the roster and leave the team back where they were. Winning teams have core players that have been together for years and bond. Work with the coaches and manager. It’s not rotisserie league – pull this guy, plug in that one and see what happens….and if that doesn’t work, keep thrashing around.
backing into a corner definition: strong SP, elite BP, Julio, France, Hernandez, Suarez, Raliegh, crawford, wong, haggerty-not that bad of a core offense. Nice corner to be in.
all this player shuffling reminds me of the late 70’s Yankees. They’d trade or promote a player. If he did cut it in 30 days, they’d ship him out and bring somelse. BUT, they still had the core juggernaut players to lean on.
hoof hearted;
The 1970’s were a totally different environment. The Yankees and Red Sox had so much more revenue than anyone else that they made constant one-sided salary dump trades from teams that thought they could contend so they overpaid players – than realized that if they didn’t dump them the franchise would lose large amounts of money (and it was the Yankees and Red Sox that ran the price of players up).
Todays Mariners do not have that sort of financial advantage, nor do they have the young players in their farm system (now ranked around 24th out of 30 by most sites) – which the Yankees and Red Sox also built by outspending other teams…particularly players from overseas.
At this point I’m looking for the Angels to beat out the Marines in the AL West this year. As good as J-Rod and Luis Castillo are – Trout and Ohtani are better. Even with the recent moves he made – which were excellent – I don’t think Perry Minasian is anywhere near done constructing the Angels roster for 2023. And I expect that will carry into the 2023 season as well.
I could be wrong. A lot of time to go. But the Angels are going all out to win in order to get Ohtani to resign with them….and he likes playing for the Angels and living in Orange County.
Angels will fall behind the Rangers this year. Trout has been there almost a decade and Ohtani has been there 5 years now. Why would they be better now? Angels have weak farm system and not much behind Trout and Ohtani. You say M’s have no farm and don’t have a core to grow together but the farm is weaker now because they all came up together. Julio, Raleigh, Gilbert, Kirby were all apart of the 2nd rated farm system 2 years ago and are now up with the team. Jerry trades BP and rotation players, he hasnt been trading key players that have been there for a while. Mariners have top 5 rotation, bullpen, and defensive team in baseball. Can’t say that about any of those for the Angels. They just keep spending on other teams trash.
There ranked 24th because they graduated Julio, Gilbert, Raleigh and Kirby. The next wave is on its way. Also they have 3 1st round picks in the upcoming draft. There starting pitching staff is locked up for the next 4 years at least. They have no ridiculous contracts that will hinder the team in the future. They even have an out on Julio if they need it. JD is being smart by not handing out 7 year contracts because he wants to pay his core guys $25 mil in 3 years. Instead of a player that turns into what the Angel’s seem to do every year! Anthony Rodon I think his name is?
I have to disagree about the farm being weak. It is not the #1 farm as it was listed this time last year, but it is still middle of the pack in MLB. Seattle farm is light on position players though Harry Ford is elite. They have a lot of high end pitching on the cusp of making the major league roster, The other high end prospects are on the lower levels that after next year will likely jump to the upper third in the league.
marinersblue96;
I don’t like commenting on players until I watch them play.
The way farm systems are evaluated is nonsensical to me. An organization promotes 3 players from AAA and they go from a top 5 farm system to somewhere in the 20’s. So I look at farm system rankings like I do WAR – it’s sort of a general benchmark to go by.
As for the Mariners’ having some top prospects – almost all teams do…every year. Very few make it, of course.
To put this in context, I don’t think the Mariners are a poor, or even an average team. I think they’re very good. But I also think that the AL West is in the process of unseating the AL East as the top division in the AL. All AL West teams other than the A’s are getting much better. I can see the situation reversing in 2023 whereby the AL West sends 3 teams to the playoffs. But I saw how the Angles played in early 2023 before Trout got hurt -especially the battles between the Astros and Angels – and those were 2 MLB powerhouses.
Lots of offseason to go. And with all due respect to the overblown free agency sweepstakes – what makes teams better or worse in the coming season will be which players unexpectedly got better or worse, as well as injuries. It’s what I always look for which teams have guys on their roster that have upside potential.
Seattle executive Jerry Dipoto’s recent comments were about the club’s current long-term obligations that result in MLB’s third-highest payroll commitment from 2024 and beyond. Dipoto apparently wants to leave room for extensions to George Kirby, Cal Raleigh and Logan Gilbert, among others.
The result is that the Mariners are unlikely to pursue the long-term contracts commanded by this offseason’s top free agents. A likelier result is that Seattle will seek a short-term deal with a free agent outfielder such as Michael Conforto, Cody Bellinger or Joey Gallo. That contract would expire as Kirby, Raleigh and Gilbert reach arbitration and potential extensions.
The haters just want to hate because there team keeps spending and keep losing. While Seattle has done it the right way and will be winning for years.
Yeah, who wants to win back to back 90 win seasons and make the playoffs for the first time in 20 years? This is BS!
I think the main focus here guys is Winker all in all was not a good “team” fit for the long haul of the next 3 year window the M’s have to compete. His defense in LF was abysmal and his effort to get better there (where he usually never has been good at all) was not meeting the M’s standards. Wink was rubbed guys wrong and they wanted a new fresh 2B anyways. Wong is 2x GGlover and coach perry Hill can get him back to that level as he’s only 31. If Wong can go .265/15/15/70 ribs that’s a win for the M’s.
What is a “neddle”?
If you’re going trash talk at least spell your core argument terms correctly. Otherwise it makes you look like some illiterate noob… 😉
“If you’re going “to” trash talk……….since you are a self appointed spell check monitor, please do better.
LOL! OK, you got me there.
Was hoping for a Wong for Flexen deal as rumored. If healthy Winker will hit well in Milw but we already have a corner OFer with a bad back. Can see him flipped for catching help,
2023 NL Central Champs STL Cardinals
Wahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
And cash!!!
Now just lose the Yelich anchor and you have plenty of money to sign Burns and Woody long term and Adams if he doesn’t end up a Dodger.
no team is picking up the Yeli anchor. Adames is under control for 2 more years, so the only way he “ends up a Dodger” is if the Brewers trade him there in the next two seasons
I think Dodgers more likely to trade for an Adames than shell out big bucks for big 4 SS free agents. They got 1.5 years of control for Trea Turner. So, I can see them doing that for Adames for two seasons. Or they can go cheaper internally with Lux.
They aren’t losing that anchor
Looks like a good deal for both, with the M’s getting the win. Speed for them, and power for the brew crew at the homer dome..
Ehhh, that trade is all Wong for Seattle.
lol Mariners stole Wong.
I don’t understand this move… guess the brewers are banking on the upside of JW. Not sure why they even add on the other guy. I’d just keep Wong considering this is a cash neutral trade
Maybe the Mariners sign Nimmo, would check a lot of boxes
Mariners got swindled.. Lets goooo!!
I don’t know how some are saying this is a great trade for Milwaukee. It’s a great trade for Seattle. This is like a fantasy league trade where you acquire a breakout 2B for two roster clogging bits of waiver wire trash. Abraham Toro is a bust and Jesse Winker is a lazy one year wonder. I see why David Stearns quit.
One year wonder? He never had an OPS under .830 until last year and 3 years over .900.
I don’t care which distorted stats he has, Jesse Winker had 100 hits. He had one undeserving all star selection and is one of the worst defensive OFs. He doesn’t run; doesn’t hustle and It’s no secret he is unpopular on his team.
Distorted stats? Lol. I’ll help you out here. OPS is on base percentage (avg of how much you get on base via hits and walks) plus slugging percentage (a measure of productivity of a hitter-the total number of bases per at bat). An above average OPS is over .800, an all star type season is over .900.
Winker has only had one season under.800, last year in SEA which was definitely a lousy season and he had some issues overall. You don’t have to field at DH. If you can’t imagine a world where a 29 yr old, above avg hitter 5 out of 6 seasons in a walk year of his contract, bounces back in a big way in a hitters ballpark, I can’t help you.
I deserved that for not proof reading. The statistics distort his value. Start on his HOF plaque.
Your name tells me all I need to know about your mindset. Wong for Winker is flat-out a stupid trade. Along with a typical Counsell era move in Milwaukee. Who’s next Justin Turner? &*$# I hope not!!
Whose name are you criticizing?
Wisecounsell obviously.
Seattle Wong the trade.
Nice trade for Seattle.