The Phillies have continued to strengthen their roster following their World Series defeat last year, acquiring left-handed reliever Gregory Soto and utilityman Kody Clemens in a trade with the Tigers. Utilityman Nick Maton, outfielder Matt Vierling and catcher Donny Sands are headed to Detroit in the other end of the deal. The two teams announced the deal this afternoon.
The deal adds another quality southpaw to Philadelphia’s bullpen, as Soto joins fellow lefty Matt Strahm in the relief corps plus another prominent new face in right-hander Craig Kimbrel. Between these bullpen additions and the signings of Trea Turner and Taijuan Walker, president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski is being typically aggressive as he looks to take the World Series finalist Phillies one step further in 2023.
Soto (who turns 28 in February) worked to a 3.28 ERA over 60 1/3 innings for the Tigers last season, striking out batters at a 22.8% clip against a 12.9% walk rate. In the process, he notched 30 saves for the team. The strikeout rate represented something of a dip for Soto, as it sat at 27.5% just a year prior.
Signed out of the Dominican Republic back in 2012, Soto came up through the Tigers’ system as a starting pitcher. He’d make seven starts for Detroit in his rookie year back in 2019, but was rocked to the tune of an 8.49 ERA and has been a reliever ever since. He’s found plenty of success in that role, working to a 3.57 ERA over 181 1/3 relief innings, including earning trips to the All Star game in 2021 and 2022.
Left-handed hitters hit just .225/.328/.277 against Soto, but perhaps most noteworthy is the fact he’s given up just one home run in his career to a left-handed hitter. While he handled the closing duties in Detroit, he’s joining a much stronger bullpen in Philadelphia so may see fewer ninth-inning opportunities, but in any event they’ve got an ideal late-innings arm to shut down any left-handed power threats late in the game.
Soto mixes a fastball which touches triple-digits with an 89 mph slider, as well as a very occasional changeup. As evidenced by his career 13.1% rate, walks have been the biggest issue for Soto during his career. Even with the below-average walk rate Soto has been a valuable relief arm, but if he can tighten up the free passes he has the stuff to blossom into an elite late-inning arm.
Soto has between three and four years of service time, so the Phillies will pay him a first year arbitration salary that Matt Swartz estimated to be $3.1MM. The Phillies will then control him via arbitration for the 2024 and ’25 seasons.
The Phillies pen now includes Kimbrel, Soto and Strahm, as well as Seranthony Dominguez, Jose Alvarado, Andrew Bellatti and Connor Brogdon. In Alvarado and Soto, they’ve now got two of the hardest throwing left-handers in the game, with both possessing the ability to reach 100mph.
They’ll also pick up Clemens, a utility infielder who got his first taste of the big leagues in 2022. Clemens slashed just .145/.197/.308 with five home runs over 127 plate appearances for the Tigers in 2022. The 26-year-old did hit a much more robust .274/.327/.535 line at Triple-A.
He logged time at first, second and third base in 2022, as well as some time in left field. Though it was a small sample size, he did earn two Defensive Runs Saved for his work at first and third. While unlikely to be a regular in Philadelphia, Clemens comes with two minor league options remaining so should serve as depth/bench piece.
As for the return, Detroit picks up three players who were all on Philadelphia’s 40-man roster. Sands is a 26-year-old catcher who earned his first taste of the big leagues in 2022, appearing in three games for the Phillies. Acquired from the Yankees last winter, Sands made 57 appearances at Triple-A last year, slashing .309/.413/.428 with five home runs. It’s a strong slashline, but with J.T. Realmuto ahead of him Sands was never likely to get an extended look in the big leagues. The Tigers have Eric Haase and Jake Rogers as catching options, but Sands will join that mix and could be in line to serve as a backup.
Maton, 25, is a utility player who appeared in 35 games for the Phillies last year, slashing .250/.341/.514 with five home runs over 85 plate appearances. That was a solid follow-up to his rookie year in 2021, when he hit .256/.323/.385 over 131 plate appearances. He came through the Phillies system as a shortstop but bounced around the infield and outfield in the majors. Javier Baez is locked in at shortstop for the Tigers, but they don’t currently have an obvious option at third so Maton could see plenty of time there as the Tigers look to see if his strong showing in 2022 can be sustained over a full season.
Vierling, 26, wound up picking up 357 plate appearances for the Phillies last season, putting together a .246/.297/.351 line with six home runs. He logged 434 2/3 innings in center, earning -7 Defensive Runs Saved. Vierling graded out much better in a corner spot, earning 1 DRS over 175 innings in right. He also logged a handful of innings at first, second and third. He should compete for a bench spot in Detroit as a fourth outfielder.
While there’s no highly rated prospect going back to Detroit in the deal, all three players are ready to contribute to the major league club in 2023. For the Phillies, these three players would have found opportunities somewhat hard to come by in 2023 unless more injuries (beyond just Bryce Harper’s Tommy John surgery) hit, given the established nature of their contending roster. As such, it’s a solid move from Dombrowski to flip the trio for a player that immediately makes their bullpen stronger, plus Clemens helps replace some of the bench depth sent to the Tigers.
Jim Salisbury of NBC Sports Philadelphia first reported on Twitter that the Phillies and Tigers were working on a trade. Jon Morosi of MLB Network reported on Twitter that the two sides were close on a deal involving the five players. Morosi was also first to report on Twitter that the two sides had agreed to the deal.
Photo credit: USA TODAY Sports.
Hopefully for Alec Bohm to play 3rd base
More likely Nick Maton and another player, most likely a minor leaguer we haven’t heard of.
I have heard all 5 of guys.
1UglyFish was writing before the trade was completed and the names released.
you’re right, Maton it is and I’m guessing they’re hoping Sands will develop into a serviceable big league catcher. but this is a great trade for the Phillies as Soto really came along this past year and still has three years of team control.
Dombrowski strikes again!!
Don’t you know that Dombrowski is an idiot because Boston says so…and E!SPN supports Boston logic.
You have to ignore all of his work in Montreal, Miami, Detroit and Philly…and the fact that he’ll be in the Hall of Fame when he’s done. Boston says he’s an idiot, so he is because E!SPN will report it after they tell us the latest about Tom Brady.
Don’t you know even many Detroit fans think Dombrowski is an idiot. While I happen to be a Detroit fan, I happen to be in the minority of those Detroit fans who believes we were fools for ever letting him go. This trade further solidifies that. Not that Soto is a world-beater, but we got three Kody Clemens-players in return. No Henry-Malloy in this package – that’s for sure.
It’s not basketball, so ESPN doesn’t have a clue
Vierling is a good spare part. So is Maton. But the Phils like Sosa better. Clemens is just insurance against a Bohm Injury.
Not true. Most Detroit fans understand DD and what he was able to accomplish, especially after living with AA after Illitch canned DD.
DD swings for the fences. People chastise him when he misses but forget when he swings good moves. That’s baseball. Sorry for cheesy pun
Not all of Boston thinks he’s an idiot, and, many Boston fans have quit spending money on the team until the idiot bloom is fired and someone at least half as competent as DD was takes bloom’s place as an upgrade.
Flags fly forever, and, DD hoisted a few
Don’t see how this trade really helps Detroit all that much. But, well see.
Dombrowski is raiding farm Systems but to be fair is usually more quantity than quality and usually the guys he gives up end up being bench players or even busts.
The exception of course where Moncada and kopech but he also got an absolute superstar for them.
Might as well give up a true major leaguer, for three guys that won’t be on the team in two years…..
What it does is effectively replaces Harold, Willi and Barnhart. Sands is a nice addition, but I don’t see that much improvement over the Castros. Considering it only cost the Tigers their All-Star closer, leaving little left to trade, it seems his earlier cuts have cost more than the couple of Millions they saved. Oh, and they still may not have a starting 3B.
The idiotic Tigers fans think he’s an idiot. He was great here. He’s gotten 4 of the 5 teams he’s ever ran to a World Series, and did good work in Montreal too, despite taking over all of them besides Boston when they were way down in the dumps. Incredible.
Wait give Harris a chance, Lol. This trade don’t look like a win for the tigers. Maybe he’s trying for the basement. So far it looks like AL has a brother GM. I was hopeful of a little improvement, Don’t see much to talk about.
DD luckiest GM in mlb of all time.
@iver – don’t confuse luck for skill. DD has a track record of these trades, although, soon you’ll hear whining about ‘stripping the farm’ even though it’s doubtful any of the guys make it to a mlb regular.
He is an idiot only knows how to fleece farm systems and over pay free agents 5 years the Phillies are in last place again
I’m all but certain that it’ll save Chrissy-poo a few million dollars.
@Domingo If only the White Sox had asked for Devers instead of Moncada. Devers was rated lower at the time of the trade, they surely could have gotten him if they asked. Who knew. Moncada is way too inconsistent, was absolutely awful last year, like a minor league player basically. Devers is a weak fielder though, but still… I’d much rather have him than Moncada.
They got major league ready talent. Albeit, not sexy names.
Ya, the best way to describe what DD does, is he’s a good player buyer. He can put a team together. He doesn’t seem to be the slightest bit interested in the minor leagues. If they have good trade value, they’re gone.
Just like the Rangers…..
Dombrowski had some great years here in Detroit.
I give him legendary status for giving the Tigers their best stretch of winning baseball in their history.
But, DD neglected the farm system and player development.
Thier drafting, with a few exceptions, was pretty weak especially on the postion player side.
Sands is rated #21 Phillies prospect. Maton a .250 hitter. Does not look like the Tigers got much.
Hit .250 but with 10 walks and 5 home runs in only 85 plate appearances. Even if he puts up his career numbers next year, a .254/.330/.434 batter with playable defense at both middle infield positions and both corner outfield spots is pretty valuable. Vierling was ranked as one of the Phils’ top 10 prospects per FanGraphs and put up solid numbers at Triple-A last season.
Vierling played in the majors for the majority of last season, including the WS.
Wow
The Phillies are my pick for the NL East. Wow indeed.
Will miss Maton, but I love Soto
You won’t like Soto when he starts walking batters and giving up game ruining 3 run homers. Just sayin.
Vegas has the Phillies 6 games behind the Braves and 8 behind the Mets this year, as of right now.
I think it is very unlikely the Phillies win the NL East. The Mets and Braves have better rosters and Harper is out the first half of the season.
But this move makes a tight race even tighter
If DET can get a similar value as to what he got for Jimenez, I’m all for it.
Sosa, Maton, Vierling?? Get it done Harris
DET got way more than what I thought they would have. Really enjoying what Scott Harris is doing on the trade front! Hindsight will be the final judge though.
Good trade to get 3 young players with upside. Their on base percentage is way better than the Castros and V Reyes.
I think Detroit will now have a chance for a .500 record this season.
Not sure about .500, but hopeful.
Buyers remorse on Kimbrel before the ink even dries?
Seriously though, Soto will give the Phillies a solid 9th inning option or mix-and-match with Kimbrel
Kimbrel was never meant to be the closer.
They paid $10MM for a reliever with 400 career saves not to be the closer? I suspect they’ll give him the opportunity to close, even if they downplay that now.
Closers are getting much more than 10MM in this market and Seranthony Dominguez is light years better than Kimbrel. As is Alvarado and now even Soto. Kimbrel openly stated he’s fine having a versatile role in the pen. Post-Girardi, the Phillies don’t necessarily use closers in a traditional 9th inning role all the time. So yes, Kimbrel will get some saves,but he’s the 4th or 5th best option.
Totally agree. kimbrel’s 400+ saves and low era came before 2021. The cubs were smart enough to see that and traded him to the clueless White Sox. There, he showed he could not handle anything but the ninth inning. Pitching in the eighth because Hendriks is the Sox’ closer, Kimbrell had a 5.49 ERA. He’s done. The Phillies were smart to add Soto as their possible closer.
@avenger65 I don’t think Kimbrel or Soto will be the Phillies closer. They have Dominguez.
Kimbrel had a couple lucky outings right before they traded him but was lights out for most of the year with the cubs. He began to slide right after they banned the sticky stuff.
Then why sign Kimbrell at all? He can only put h the ninth. Any other inning and he develops psychological problems.
Kimbrel had a 0.49 ERA in 39 appearances when the Cubs traded him in 2021.
The Phillies had 11 relievers with saves last season and both Thompson and Dombrowski have said that they don’t see any reason to change their philosophy of putting in their hottest reliever at the moment in the highest leverage situation, not necessarily the one that will earn him the save. I would not be at all surprised to see Kimbrel get 20+ GF this season.
Last season Kimbrel had a 3.75 ERA and 3.23 FIP. Going into the ASG he had a 4.35 ERA but a 1.95 FIP. His BABIP against was 40+ pointshigher than his career averages Both are an indication that Kimbrel was doing his job well, but his teammates were not picking him up on defense.
If he had not faced the Dbacks last season, his ERA would have been under 3.00. They rocked him for 10 ER in 7 2/3 IP. No wonder he moved to the NL East. 😉
nonono not him
Funny stat, Soto went 2-11 last year. That’s hard to do……But he’d improve the pen depending on the deal….
Don’t let it be McGarry…..
I can’t possibly believe it’s someone as good as McGrary, though I really wouldn’t be AFRAID of trading him in a general sense. He seems like a powder keg to me.
Would be big big big for PHI. Maybe tip balance?
Yes I think it will tip the balance. This will definitely move them ahead of the Marlins for third place in the East.
Jokes aside, Braves, Phillies, Mets…it’s a coinflip. If you look at all 3 teams winning % after the All Star Break, they were amongst the best in baseball. Phillies were and are much better than their 2022 record. Mets and Braves are both capable of winning 100+ again. Division is nuts.
Or did the Phillies just have a hot streak at the end of the season? They’re a good team but next year will show whether the first half or the second half was the real team.
Braves are the kings of the NL East until someone else proves to be better.
They added Turner and Walker to an already really good lineup. if Bryce comes back swinging the bay well this team will be right up there
The “hot at the right time” narrative doesn’t work for yhe Phillies. An entire half season is much more than a hotstreak. They had huge injuries early. They made great deadline moves. They fired a bad manager. There are logical reasons why they improved.
@VonPurpleHayes
I’m with you on that “hot at the right time” garbage. Fans that want to bash teams that did what their team didn’t do always try to use this statement. All the while they want to ignore a lot of factors and facts.
I remember people like this said the same things about teams like the 2003 Marlins, 2010 Giants, 2019 Nationals, and a few other teams over the years…without looking at the facts and factors.
Look at the Phillies roster, they have multiple star players, and an excellent pitching staff. The Phillies well underperformed during the regular season.
Marlins were 10-6 their last 16 games, so that means 100-62 /s Actually cost them a few spots in the draft…
As often is the case, it will probably come down to who has the least impactful injuries during the season.
@Hammerin’ Hank Agreed. And the Phils already lost Harper for a few months. I actually have it the same way as last year, but with different records.
Lol,hot streak ? How about they got a somewhat fully healthy lineup, a fully healthy top 3 rotation and a manager who actually knew how to manage a team.
The king watched as the phillies represents in the world series.
Obviously the Braves (and Mets) had a better regular season record but last I checked the Phillies beat the Braves in the NLDS and won the NL pennant!
If you look at all 3 teams winning % after the All Star Break,
================================
.543
.662
.623
One of those teams was not nearly as good.
Bryce just had TJS, so it may take him a while to get settled..
I don’t buy into the “hot at the right time” narrative of the Phillies either. They were just an underachieving team that found their focus. They had the 4th highest payroll in the game. It’s not like they were a middling team that rode a hot streak into the playoffs. That also makes them a hard team to figure out or to project into 2023. You can legitimately ask which Phillies team is going to show up in 2023. I think for the Phillies, April will be the key to their season. If they start out hot, I think it will be a three team race for the NL East crown. If not, I think it will be a repeat of 2022 with the Phillies hoping for a collapse of one of the other two second place clubs to sneak into the postseason.
Having Harper for the whole season will obviously help. And they’ve added Trea Turner to the line up! Very good hitting line up with an excellent bullpen. Starting pitching doesn’t really need to be great. Just keep it close. Phillies should win around 95 games this season IMO..
That’s because they got hot at the right time. A team that didn’t even win 90 games shouldn’t even have been in the PO if not for Manfred’s desire to get as many teams as possible into the PO to increase commercial revenue.
Weren’t they part of the lottery drawing? It’s not as automatic as it used to be.
Philis just did. Kings of nl
Oops! Forgot Harper had the elbow surgery. Amazing how well he hit with a bad elbow..
They won’t have to hope for a collapse of another team. The same 6 teams will be in the playoffs. The only possibility may be the Brewers replacing the Cards, but I don’t even see that. My hot take would be the Braves finish 3rd. Murphy was a nice pickup, but does that make up for losing Swanson and Jansen? I could also easily see a sophomore slump for Strider and/or Harris. The Mets win the division and once Harper is healthy and Painter is in the rotation, the Phillies roster is nasty.
40, 38, and 36…Those are the ages of Verlander, Scherzer, and Carrasco entering the 2023 season. And the Mets two main guys in the bullpen after,Diaz are a 37 year old (Ottavino) and 38 year old (Robertson).
That’s a lot of age, IMO, in your pitching staff to depend on for a playoff run.. Senga and Quintana better be lights out.
And we still don’t know about Correa. Will he sign with the Mets or not?
I can see the Mets starting the season well but their age could slow them drastically in the second half. Atlanta has a great line up but I also question whether Strider or Wright can duplicate their success this year. If they do then they’ll be my easy favorite to win the East. The Braves bullpen looks great to me. Iglesias should be fine as their Closer. It’s going to be between Atlanta and Philadelphia IMO. .
A lot of fans forget how they were drubbed by AZ SF and SD in August. Rebounded…
darylict;
Much of what looks obvious every off-season is totally wrong my later-May / early-June.
You certainly have a pessimistic opinion.of teams that will finish ahead of the Phillies.
Very frightened of what Philly may be giving up here.
Hmmm. I guess it depends on if Harris is prioritizing the MLB roster or adding prospects. Maybe Dombrowski can kick in some cash and convince the Tigers to take Kingery as part of the return?
I don’t mind this deal for either team. Maton and moreso Vierling have played in big games and performed admirably. They’re decent depth options and Vierling can start on many teams. Phillies get a proven closer to add to their bullpen depth.
In all honesty that’s a pretty lousy return for the Tigers. Sure, Vierling could end up the everyday RF and Maton is probably the Utility guy off the bench but i feel like the Tigers could have gotten more for a 2× All Star Closer.
Steal for the Phillies though so good for Dave
I think Vierling and Maton’s versatility increases their value. Sure, I’m a bit biased having watched them for awhile, but they’re young with tons of upside.
Soto was a closer in name only. He was the 4th best arm they had last year.
Seriously, Soto can hit 100mph, but he’s also good at putting base runners on to make things scary.
The reason he is a 2x all star is that they had to pick someone from the Tigers. Not really saying much
What are you thoughts on trading catchers O’Hoppe and Sands over the past few months? Is it safe to assume Marchan and a minor league signing for depth and finally does trading Vierling open a spot for outfielders Rojas, Ortiz, or Wilson to gain major experience as the next inexpensive piece?
No difference in giving up a solo HR or walking the first 3 hitters and a sac fly. Still gave up 1 run, did that a few times.
Would rather have had him just give up a solo shot
Unfortunately watched close to 162 Tiger games, know exactly what the Tigers gave up
Everyone seems to ignore the consistent 5.1.-5.2 BB9. That’s about as bad as it gets.
No difference in giving up a solo HR or walking the first 3 hitters and a sac fly.
=============================
With no other input, wouldn’t the difference be having 1st & 2nnd with one out?
As much as I loved O’Hoppe, catcher was their strongest/deepest position so it makes sense to deal from strength to fill needs. I think Dalton Guthrie replaces Vierling but I fully expect Rojas to get some MLB time this year being their best position player prospect..
Loading the bases with walks in a tight game is why I won’t miss Soto. His 3.45ish ERA is not what you want in a closer.
A average stopper should have a below 3.OO era to be a difference maker, along with low walk and high strikeout rates.
Soto would definitely NOT be a all-star on a contender.
He is going to be a lefty middle relief non closer option for the Phillies.
The phillies gave up nothing and get 30 saves, I will take it.
Wait until you see Soto pitch before you come to that conclusion. He is one of those “cardiac kid” relievers. 30 saves, but 2-11. He blew a lot of games with all those walks.
90% of all closers are
cardiac kid” relievers.
was really looking forward to seeing one more year of Maton, but with Turner and Stott up the middle, he probably woultn’t have gotten many at-bats anyway. And as someone (you?) mentioned, I think everyone is a bit higher on Sosa as the versatile IF than Maton.
I liked Vierling but yea, a bit of bias there just from watching him on the Phils so much. Not an excellent player but, like Maton, he’ll at least get more of a chance with DET to prove that he is more than just a 4th OF.
I think this is a respectable haul for the Tigers– Soto’s electric but, let’s face it, could implode next year just like any other ‘top’ reliever, and nobody would be surprised. I do think there’s a bit of untapped potential in Maton for sure, so DET did well here overall I think. .
Keep it up Dombrowski…..
We better get a good return for this
I wonder if the Tigers can pry Hao Yu Lee from the Phillies for Soto?
Please no. I don’t think he’s worth it, at least in terms of prospects. If he could give up Ortiz, Morales, and somebody else then maybe, but there is no way he’s worth a prospect like McGarry, Miller, or Hao Yu Lee
I’d consder MIller. He can’t stay healthy and him being passed on the R5 shows that other teams are quite bearish on him anyway. Hope it does not have to me a McGarry-level prospect, and yeah, Lee as well.
When Soto is throwing strikes with his slider, he is unhittable! He has amazing stuff, but loses the strike zone more than you would like from your closer. Tigers used him a lot in tie games and had little offense. In save opps he was very solid.
Soto has a 1.36 WHIP over the last two seasons. That’s not terrible, but you’re right. For a high-leverage guy, that’s the definition of walking the tight-rope.
No, that is terrible for a late inning guy. It is barely employable at the MLB level for ANY pitcher.
I never said it wasn’t terrible for a high-leverage guy. I mean it’s not terrible in context of a low-leverage guy, but it’s not barely employable. It’s only .09 worse than the league average. There were still seven pitchers with 60+ IP and an above average ERA with a WHIP of 1.35 or greater.
I look forward to see the return since it’s clear that Kim Ng couldn’t do a trade for any reliever to improve our lousy bullpen that she built.
Don’t count on that !! The Marlins’ GM is on a perennial vacation when it comes to making any trade to improve presently the worst team in MLB….But, on the other hand, she does exert the inept criteria of getting rid of a promising good player like Charles Leblanc..Definitely, Ms
Ng is the worst GM in professional baseball !!
@tutopelotas1…a wee bit harsh on Ng..she is a product of tight pocketed owners…no one knows her value if she was given free reign..
@DadsInDaniaBeach Harsh you say? No, @tutopelotas1 is not being harsh when it’s true. Ng has done nothing and it has very little to do with the ownership. That was clear at the 2022 trade deadline when she had the support of the fan base to move many of the veteran players to clear space for the young players. What did she do? She fell flat on her face only moving one player and failing to move the rest that have decreased in value since she didn’t move them. And shortly after failing to move one of the players (Aguilar) for anything, she let him go for nothing.
She is on her way to being considered the worst GM in MLB. I never thought I’d see anyone worse than Mike “Yes Man” Hill, but Ng is showing that she could be worse. But at least she makes sure to get interviews and other public appearances.
Nick Maton, Matt Vierling and Donny Sands? That doesn’t seem like a great return for Soto. How do you Detroit fans feel about that return?
Upset
The bullpen was our one above-average strength last season and several of those guys have multiple years of control left. It would make sense to retain those guys and let them get even better so we can focus on upgrading other areas of the roster.
Vierling and Maton are bench options at best right now, we need impact bats who will win us a few more games.
Not blown away. Maton fits Harris’ profile, but hey are old for prospects 25 25 and 26. Means they will be given camp to make the squad and Maton could start or platoon 3b and Vierling as Baddoo insurance.
Soto is volatile, not the best trade asset, but getting a Brandon Drury type piece for him isn’t bad. Harris got his younger guy at 3b/of for Jimenez, so he is filling holes with long term assets for short term assets.
Like his ideas overall so far, but no big splashes, which really wasn’t expected this year.
What are you talking about? Vierling was a starter for much of the season and even in the World Series. He’s not a prospect LOL. He’s a starter, not just insurance.
On the Tigers he is a starter.
Definitely for the Tigers. And he makes great car insurance commercials, maybe that’s the insurance you’re thinking of
I feel great about it personally. I thought Maton alone would’ve been sufficient.
Very underwhelmed. I was happy to see we traded Soto until I saw the trash haul. If one of these guys turns out to be more than simply a depth piece, I’ll be surprised.
Underwhelmed
Sure I would have loved to get a high-impact player in return, but here we are two months into the offseason and Scott Harris took the best deal on the table because it is a deal that improves his team.
The Tigers are dealing from their only source of strength, the bullpen. What good is it to have guys who can lock down 7-8-9th innings if you can’t even get there? The bullpen isn’t as strong, but it is still good.
I don’t know much about the players received in return, but they appear to fill multiple needs for the Tigers. Maton looks like an on-base machine. Vierling was a promising prospect with a questionable rookies season in 2022. Sands intrigues me with a high walk rate and low K rate in the minors plus some power. Tigers needed another catcher.
Phillies get some immediate bullpen help and the Tigers got three possibilities who might help a team trying to figure it out. Win-win.
I don’t care. Soto was overrated IMO. Selling high and getting a few gambles at areas of weaknesses is fine with me.
Hopefully I underrate Maton, Vierling and Sands, but right now I am very disappointed. Why did Harris settle for such a meager return?
Gruß,
BSHH
I don’t really get the addition of Sands, not that he isn’t good or anything. But, DET has loaded up on catching depth this entire off-season: Papierski, Knapp, Feliciano, and now Sands. Haase, Rogers, and Dingler are already on the roster, and they’re all fairly close to the same age of mid 20’s-early 30’s.
But, I am way less bullish on Soto. I think this is a good get for the Tigers, they needed depth after non-tendering Castro(s), Candy, and Reyes. I think Lange will do fantastic in the closer role, and I’m hopeful on them re-signing Fulmer and/or Chafin
Papierski and Knapp are nothing. Feliciano is intriguing. Sands is even more intriguing. Dingler is not on the 40 man yet. Haase is a better hitter than catcher. Rogers has been hurt for well over a year. Getting another MLB-ready catcher is not a bad move.
At least get Fulmer back on a one year deal.
I was surprised by lack of household names for sure at this point of off-season but when u look into return and Detroit’s need- it’s a nice haul. Detroit has some 10 players vying for starting rotation- some will have to be moved to pen so trading out of surplus.
What sucks about the trade is that it just furthers the class system in mlb. Phili has the ability to be so rich in free agents – they can trade away all of the sub star home grown talent.
If there were such a thing as a lose-lose trade from the start, this is likely it. Perhaps Sands has some promising BB to K ratios in the minors last season, but the rest seem awful. Soto has awful K to BB ratios and a poor WHIP, and he relies too much on limiting homeruns. He allowed a lot of unearned runs, and reliver often give up inherited runners.. However, he seems like a better return than the other side.
Admittedly, Harris and Co. are in a weird in-between position of not entirely rebuilding per se, but also needing a lot more pieces while waiting and hoping for young talent to perform. While it’s nice to get MLB-ready talent that plays multiple positions, it just doesn’t seem that much different from Willi and Harold Castro. I thought Soto’s stock would be a bit higher than this return.
Negative WAR.. 2-11 record .. he’s another Alvarado with less K’s
WAR is effectively useless for pitchers and completely useless for RP.
And win/loss record is even more useless. Relievers are volatile year-to-year, but Soto is one of the better ones out there.
WAR is effectively useless in general @Darksofe830.
He was one of the better relievers as recently as 2021. War, and especially W/L record do not tell the full story. Guy is a legit closer. And the Phillies now have a lot of options for Philly Rob’s unconventional bullpen usuage.
Even if you want to live in the stone age, he’s never been “one of the better relievers”. A 3.30ish ERA with tons of walks isn’t anything special from the pen no matter how you look at it
2 time All Star. 30 Saves in 2022. All relivers are volatile. He’s not in that top tier of lights-out closers, and he has control issues, but he’s been solid. Absolutely nasty when he’s on. Heart-attack scary when he starts walking the world. He also will be throwing to JT Realmuto now, which may help.
Being an All-Star doesn’t mean much if you’re only selected because every team needs someone to go
Guys who throw 100 from the left don’t grow on trees – he has elite potential if he cuts down the walks.
A closer’s job is to save games and Soto did that at a high percentage. He might give you a heart attack, but he gets it done. His losses mostly came when he was brought into tie games with an awful offense. So yes, he is one of the better relievers.
Soto is Tanner Scott part Deux.
Not a closer on a championship team.
W/L record doesn’t tell the whole story, but it does tell something. Sure you can be unlucky with a 6-8 record. But 2-11 is a little worse than unlucky. You’ve blown some games with that kind of record.
WAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing! Sing it ya’ll!
– Edwin Starr
The teams with the highest WAR generally have the highest amount of wins. Very closely correlated.
That is not entirely accurate. But you did use your safe words like “generally” and “closely correlated”.
Problem with trading Vierling is it means Castellanos will be fielding all year unless Harper eventually gets out there again. It removes some DH flexibility before Harper returns. But the bullpen is really good now.
Unless they feel Rojas could be up. I’m sure they’re going to want another CF option
They have Cave and Muzziotti. Guthrie can also play CF some.
Completely forgot about Cave. TY.
Well he really shouldn’t make the team anyway, but yeah, he’s there.
Cave hits LH and isn’t good.
If anything happens to Marsh, the best option would be Rojas….although handing a 22yr old w/ no aaa experience isn’t the ideal situation….
Lots of Outfielders still available and Dalton Guthrie could probably hold down RF when Castellanos is the DH. When Harper comes back Castellanos will have to be in RF most of the time anyway so might as well get used to it early
I was thinking the same thing. Until Bryce comes back and is actually healed enough to play OF, the Phil’s are very thin now in the OF especially defensively unless DD has something else up his sleeve.
I was thinking the same thing, they’ll be thin at OF most of next year as it may take a while for Harper to be able to play OF.
Fair trade for both. PHI clearly win now. DET gets some players with real upside. On paper, PHI has assembled an enviable pen with depth. Lotta guys that can get big outs. Expect NYM and ATL to also add to their pens with at least an arm that profiles for 7th inning or 8th in event main set up bro is overworked
Smells like a Al Avila swap!
Wait, do people think Soto is some great get? All kinds of red flags in his numbers last year.
He’s a proven closer. He’s not elite or anything, but Det didn’t get elite talent in return. I think it’s a fair value trade that gives the win-now Phillies some real bullpen depth while giving the Tigers 3 players with upside, 2 of which have experience playing successful ball at the Major League level. Vierling had significant WS at bats.
“Proven closer” like that means anything lol. He’s never thrown strikes and last year couldn’t miss bats. Mid at best
30 saves for a bad team is better than Mid. Also in Philly he doesn’t even need to be the closer per se. He’s solid bullpen depth. 100+ lefty albeit with control issues.
Saves don’t mean anything
30 saves by accident.
any average or better reliever with 35+ chances would get 30 saves. Not hard
I’ll take it.
“He’s never thrown strikes ”
204.2 career innings with 210 strikeouts… hmmmm
Pretty hard for the Phillies who haven’t seen a 30 save guy in quite some time.
also, some fail to see the relevance of a great coach in Caleb Cotham …He has done really good things..one of the very best in the Majors…..
Now do BB/9
Saves mean u got the nuts to go out in the 9th regardless of who’s coming up to bat to win the game out. Saves are Yuge! That’s why closers make WAY more than relievers and bottom rotation pieces
Blown saves also matter. 30 saves may blow you away, but if a closer has 10-15 blown saves to go along with those, that is awful. Also, look at losses. 11 losses for a reliver are way too high. I count those to be as bad as blown saves because blowing a lead = giving up a go-ahead run. This guy didn’t get much, and rightfully so. He better not be closing if the Phils want to win. Kimbrel is way better suited for the job.
Yeah, he’s extremely overrated. I think it’s because he has flashy stuff, racked up a bunch of saves over the past couple years, and got picked for a couple All-Star teams (even though he only made it because the rest of his teammates were absolute garbage).
There are tons of red flags in his advanced metrics, but even if you like to stick your head in the sand on those, he’s nothing amazing. A 3.30ish ERA with tons of walks isn’t anything more than a decent 6th or 7th inning option on a contending team, and his value is hurt more because you have to think real hard about bringing him on with men on base because of his poor control. Detroit got a good return for him – I wouldn’t be surprised if he runs an ERA in the mid-4s next year
Burnt detroit fan ticks off a nice resume.
I am not a Detroit fan
“…and his value is hurt more because you have to think real hard about bringing him on with men on base because of his poor control.”
roiste;
This isn’t computer baseball. When human beings that are baseball players go onto the field in 2023 what they did in the past means zilch.
Gregory Soto profiles very similarly to Jose Alvarado. Alvarado had a couple of very nice years for the Rays. Got injured and the Rays never could get him going again. The Phillies worked with him in 2021 and he stunk. Dombrowski insisted they continue to work with him because his stuff was so overpowering if he could just regain his control. They sent him to the minors for a few weeks around the time they dumped Gerardi and promoted Thompson. The coaches worked with him. When he came back he had his control. He was a solid lefty out of the pen the rest of the year and in the playoffs.
Soto is much better than Alvardado was when the Phillies got him. The Philles have a top-flite manager and a coaching staff to match. Those people will work with Soto to help him become a consistant pitcher. He could well wind up being their closer as the season moves along.
That’s great that the Phillies helped Alvarado, but Soto is a different person than Alvarado, and it’s not reasonable to *expect* that a 27-year old pitcher is going to suddenly fix a major problem that he’s had his entire career, even with a great pitching coach.
This isn’t a bad trade for the Phillies, but people shouldn’t be calling it a crazy steal just because they’re assuming the Phillies will magically transform him. That’s possible, but what’s more likely is Soto stays who he is
Detroit definitely saw the advantage of getting decent grab for him now opposed to him starting the season poor and losing all value. Usually better to wait until deadline on all star closers but for this guy much better to take the deal when its there.
He allowed 2 hrs in 60 innings pitched! The tigers are pathetic. He’s a lefty with talent. DD gave up basically nothing for him. I like this trade for philly by a country mile. Soto is a middle reliever on the phillies
The 2 HRs came with a 3.4% HR/FB. If/when that regresses to 12-13%, then the HRs will climb as well.
Personally, I feel like it should’ve just been Sands and Vierling for Soto. I will miss Carshield and Sandy Alcantara’s Worst Nightmare 🙁
Yeah I would have rather swapped in some other players, even if the value is decent for the Phillies. Maton will be good, DET will love him. Shame to lose both O’Hoppe and Maton in the past few months – they’re both big energy guys that are fun to watch and root for.
I’d like to congratulate Kim Ng on once again getting a front row seat to watch another GM in her division get something the Marlins need.
Why would the Marlins need a dude with a 4.59 xFIP and a career BB/9 over 5
@GMoney2850
The Marlins would need him because he’s better than all of the other guys we’ve been hoping will miraculously turn into a Closer.
To be fair, Dombrowski gets to use the bosses black card while Ng only gets to use half spent gift cards
@Rsox
I’m trying to figure out how the type of the card figures into trading for a guy that made a little over 700K last season and may make under $3 million this year (at best)…when we just spent the amount we did on Segura.
I guess more to the point getting Sherman to open the wallet twice in the same offseason is difficult enough without asking him to do it twice in the same week
I thought Kimbrel would cause Phillie fans anxiety….then they add thus guy also!
Nice haul by Detroit. Selling high on a reliever and getting some nice controllable, versatile young pieces in return.
They got nothing and the phillies got 30 saves.
I’m sure that’s EXACTLY what they got Innotsorryisaidthatoyourass
Watching 162 plus phillies games I know that’s EXACTLY what’s the fighting phillies got .
ok
30 saves ? They can back date like that ?
“Vierling’s back, this game has turned upside down”
Tigers got fleeced!
Why is the article spelling Clemens with a K?
Maybe Kody paid attention to his dad’s misdeeds and is ashamed of the family name.
Interesting move by Harris. He didn’t fill any holes, but he replenished depth. Sands was needed depth at C, and looks like the batting profile Harris likes. Any info on how he is defensively? Maton and Vierling provide alternatives should Torkelson, Meadows or Baddoo still struggle. At least there will be some competition in spring training. Soto was the tradeable player and will be missed. Tigers need to go sign Fulmer now.
Phillies bullpen could be super deep and filthy or shallow and wild this season lol.
I think it will be both often.
Detroit got fleeced.
Like they did by not trading Michael Fulmer and Matthew Boyd for an unknown offer? What offers did they turn down that were better than this one? Please tell us.
You can only take the offers that are made. In exchange for a mercurial reliever, they got three players who fill unmet needs for the Tigers. That they are expendable for the Phillies just tells you the different stages the teams are at.
Harris is doing everything right so far, just traded off Soto and (useless) Kody Clemens to Philly (Dave Dombrowski who decimates minor leagues) for Maton and two other young guys who have each sniffed the bigs… this is a FANTASTIC deal for the Tigers. All building towards our competitive window that opens in 2024.
Like this move for our pen. We have a variety of arms for different situations. Good trade. Let’s goooo! #ringthebell
To me, Maton is the best player in the trade. I hope it works out for both teams.
An extremely boring trade with a bunch of names. Why does it feel like both teams got a little worse from this trade? Lol
Only to a braves fan. Bwaaaaaaa Bwaaaaaaa
Clemens not Klemperer
Soto has great stuff but can barely hit the strike zone. But Detroit gets 2 utility players and a backup catcher… win-win!?
To me, Mark is the best player in the trade. Hopefully, it works out for both teams..
Who is Mark?
I meant Sands
Ohhh. Thanks.
Great move for the Phillies.
Detroit makes the playoffs
Philly doesn’t
Clemens is spelled with a C
The Rocky statue is overrated
Which year? Surely not 2023!
Yes, this year. I think the Tigers, Cubs, and Baltimore are all getting in.
Good luck with that.
Vierling was a cult hero in Philly, as he had some huge moments for them down the stretch. Bummed to see him go for that, but he has some developing to do if he wants to see play everyday.
He brought about the downfall of Josh Hader.
Morales part of this trade? Separate deal?
To me, Vierling is the best player in the trade. I hope it works out for both teams.
Losing Maton and Vierling weakens the bench but adding Soto strengthens an already pretty decent bullpen. Like him as the late inning lefty option more than Alvarado.
Something tells me Dombrowski isn’t done. Would love to see them go after Correa if the medical stuff gets cleared up, but that’s probably a pipe dream.
If that guy is willing to sign a 3yr deal with no opt outs and no – no trade clause….then sure I’ll bite….
I guess that means Guthrie or Rojas are the odds on favs to break camp as the 4th of….?
Gonna miss the energy that Maton/Vierling brought…
Why does the author keep spelling Clemens with a K? Is that some sort of shorthand that Phillies fans have been using for Kody Clemens?
There’s enough high upside players that it should be a pretty solid pen. The way I look at is Dominguez and Alvarado were two really good backend options, now you’re adding Kimbrell and Soto to that mix. If 2 out of those 4 are having a good year then you’re set in innings 8 and 9. Then you have whoever of those 4 that isn’t pitching up to their potential plus Brogdon, Bellatti, and Strahm coving innings 6 and 7, which is a really good group for that.
There’s going to be injuries and RP have a lot of variance, but they don’t need all 7 of those guys to be all stars. The depth is there so even if a few have bad years the pen should hold up overall.
Put the following on my Phillies forum – Need to take this trade news in for a bit, but off the cuff:
Soto: Always always always happy to add to the pen, and love the fact that DD was not done with higher upside arms after signing Kimbrel. Soto has potential and impact, but 2 time AS for Detroit the past couple of years isn’t the same thing as for a playoff team. He was visible as the closer, and rather dynamic. And they had to take someone.for the game. Basically another Alvarado…a high wire act. Closer stuff and closer experience, so getting him here as another leverage piece works. Gotta’ get his walks under control. He also has three years before free agency. DD working to build some internal bullpen depth for the future, and knows that Alvarado is a FA next year.
* Yes, it is only depth, but basically those are three controlled major league depth pieces. Tigers might just be getting a solid win with this one down the road. That is a BIG chunk of 26 man roster depth to offload in one sitting…no one with elite upside of course, and perhaps they all stay as bench pieces down the road. But we need to replace some of that inexpensive depth. Not sold on Clemens, but he will be a part of the replacement for now and maybe we are pleasantly surprised.
* Maton…I got really comfortable with him, and think that in the event of injury he could have played a solid everyday 2B and made a good ute with some upside. I can see him having a shot as a starter for Detroit at some point. I guess Guthrie is the Maton replacement that is on the roster…for now. Liked his all fields swing, and as a converted SS he can cover middle IF ute and the outfield at this point. Still no telling if the bat will be workable until we see a lot more of him.
* Vierling…looks like a solid platoon bat / 4th OF with some good defensive chops. Didn’t like him much in the minors, but the kid developed. Can see him starting as well for the Tigers down the road. His floor is already solid as a useful backup OF…not a high ceiling but he still has some room. This means that they have to have some confidence that Rojas / Muzzie or someone else is close to ready in ST. Or they go out and buy a cheap 4th OF.
* Sands…He was in AAA but frankly the dude has more upside than Stubbs. Really developed last year. Could have a very good major league bat for a catcher with time, and the D is making strides (he is a converted catcher and has the athleticism to do it). Marchan went backwards last year, but is the next catcher up in case of emergency. Cleaned out our top end catching replacements between Hoppster and then Sands. Went from a major strength to an area of depth concern and now they will probably be fishing in the backup catcher market for filler moves at LHV
Dombrowski Take: Maton and Vierling were late developers under his watch that he is cashing in for an area of constant need. Sands was actually a steal from the Yankees that developed last year into something of value. If Soto ends up being a key back of the pen piece for three years, this works. Clemens fills a part of the depth need in the return.
Scott Harris Take: Took a relief arm for a team that won’t maximize his value for a couple of years and that he didn’t want as the closer anyway, and turned him into three potential pieces that can really contribute that are controlled for quite a while. Excellent young talent grab that could really pay off. I don’t think that they valued Clemens as a viable starter and is therefore a wash
This looks like the Jorge Lopez trade last year. Better baseball card numbers than peripherals. They didn’t give up a lot “names”, but at a minimum of 200 IPs over the past 4 years, Soto had the second highest BB/9 in baseball.
I’m not sure Soto is closer material on a contender, especially in the NL East. He will be great as a set up guy. The Phillies got a million dollar arm. Not so sure about the brain. It will be interesting to see games where Jimenez (Braves) and Soto (Phils) face off in the 8th-9th innings.
If Sands is better than Jake Rogers, the Tigers win. Clemens has no real value to the Tigers and Vierling and Maton are, at least, as good.
Considering where the Tigers are, losing Soto does little harm. They have other relief options.
Much like the Kimbrel pick up, a lot of people are assuming Phils want a new closer. I still think Seranthony Dominguez is the closer. Phillies use the bullpen a bit unconventionally and they’re looking for multiple guys who pitched in high leverage scenarios. As others have put it, Soto is another Alvarado. He’ll get saves, but I see him more as a 7-8th inning guy.
VPH I feel you are totally on point….
Thomson firmly lands in the “high leverage” group of bullpen management scions…This may sound ridiculous but the Phillies might have four pitchers with 10 saves in 2023….?
I think Kimbrel takes the job early on, albeit with a relatively short leash. I really don’t think they signed a long-time closer with near 400 saves to put him as a set-up guy right away. He’ll become that if pitches poorly, but at the start of the season I’d really say that its Kimbrel’s job to lose.
hey tiger fans, who who says dombrowski can’t build a bullpen?
*ducks
This might be the second time (the first being the 2006 Tigers with Joel Zumaya, Fernando Rodney, and Todd Jones.
Well he didn’t have much time in ’21 and he “tried hard” in ’22 and it looks like he’s tried “harder AND smarter” in ’23….
Fingers crossed….
I’m also referring to most of his time in Detroit when he squandered a Hall of Fame rotation (Verlander, Scherzer, Price, Sanchez, Porcello) and a very strong offense because he had no bullpen. And his time in Boston when the bullpen was also a struggle.
No no no…..you are right,
Must admit I am still “Dombrowski drunk” after the MacPhail / Klentak / Kapler / Girardi (who I did want, but wanted Showalter more) years….
So am very Philly-centric and mentioning the 20-21 pens still gives me eye-tics…..
What a great offseason. Let’s trade another bullpen chip for what amounts to as 3 neverwillbe’s. Are we sure Al sr isn’t still running this team?!?!
Are you kidding? The only good thing Al Avila did for the Tigers is get himself fired! In one trade the Tigers got a new leadoff hitter (Maton, and I’m not kidding you), a platoon partner for Kerry Carpenter, and a backup catcher that might actually be good. I think you’re going to be very surprised when you see how much better the Tigers have just become. Not contending better, but working towards competence.
Hey SIRI get REMAX on the phone…….
Hi Sam Coonrod here, so about that down-payment…..
Wow. Again tigers trade a bullpen chip for what amounts to as 3 neverwillbe’s. Are we sure Al Sr isn’t still running this team?!?!
Saying it twice with slightly different wording doesn’t make it sound any better. Wait until mid summer before coming to any conclusions.
Bro the tigers didn’t do bad lol soto has no place on your team, the tigers aren’t even close to contenders, these are the moves they should make. They got some interesting pieces in this trade and also from the joe Jimenez trade with Atlanta. Relievers come around more often than other players.
I would suggest not watching for awhile if you’re that glum.
Nice piece, he needs to limit those walks though imo.
Soto was worth -0.1 WAR last year. I don’t know how this moves the needle at all.
PHILLIES ACQUIRED SOTO!!! Oops, no, not that one… LOL
Nice trade for the Phillies, Clemens is going to be a good player.
He struck out Ohtani last season on a 68 MPH heater, but I think he throws in the low 90’s, he could be a two way player in the making.
Nice job by DD to get Soto for a bunch of spare parts. I do think DET “settled” on 3 role players but they are young and probably will see significant playing time on a positionally starved roster. Will be nice to see Sands get a full time roster spot. Don’t think he has the power or the defensive chops to be an everyday player but he could be a plus hitter at catcher and see a lot of pinch hitting and finishing games behind the plate.
Well, the three are too old to be considered “prospects” so are they AAAA guys or the always useful “depth” guys who don’t do much but don’t embarrass you either, ala Ryan Raburn? I figured Clemens being up from Toledo was a cap-tip to Roger from Hinch. Soto throws hard but elite closers don’t go 2-11 regardless of their ERA. DD is the master of trades like this. and since I don’t remember Avila going anywhere near him after his exit from Detroit, he probably figured he’d try to fleece the kid. And again i’ll say Harris has to see what he has after the Coolbaugh fiasco in his search for even mediocre hitters.
Veirling started in the WS last year. These aren’t AAA guys. Vierling is a starting outfielder. Maton is a versatile depth piece.
Starting for who? Carpenter has earned the LF spot, Riley is the CFer, and Meadows has a resume that, unless Coolbaugh destroyed him, is the RFer. I said AAAA guys, meaning DD doesn’t dump guys who are starters in Detroit, especially Detroit.
The Bloom lovers get a chance to bash Dombrowski. Dombrowski is so singularly focused on winning – what a burden.
Good deal.
It doesn’t matter if Soto pans out or not, given the garbage the Phillies gave up. However they were able to get Alvarado to pitch with better control so worth a shot at a minimal financial cost to see if can do same with Soto.
Dave Dombrowski is an absolutely elite baseball executive. He’s not a gm you want in a small market. He needs to be in charge of a team with a huge payroll but that means nothing. This guy wins everywhere he goes. Phillies are legit WS contenders for the next several years
For any perfectionist out there, Corey Seager is the only lefty to homer off Soto. It bugged me so I had to look it up.
Thank you. I was wondering.
Phillies trade their 4th and 5th outfielders with Harper out the first few months of the season. I think this is paving the way for a new outfielder…
…or he sees something in Rojas’ make-up? …or Guthrie’s abilities?
But am on the Dombrowski train….so……
Detroit made out. You got a rookie who just played center in the WS, Maton had nice stats under 200 ABs and plays SS and a catcher, yes been around for a bit, but still only 26 with impressive walk to strikeouts for the first time and at his highest level. For an default all star closer who lost 11 games!! Holy smokes! With an era so low he must of only given up runs in those 11 loses. Oh and Rogers kid for namesake
5 of those 11 loses came in the 10th inning with a free runner starting on second & no outs. And a Tiger Offense that could not score their FREE SECONDBASE RUNNER!!!!!
Pitching on a team that will score runs his stats will look much nicer at the end of the season. He has dominate stuff.
Extra inning ghost runner loses should come as a team lose.. not an individual stat.
Also, Soto’s 11 loses were often in hold situations. 8th and extra inning settings were not his forte which presumably is where he’s expected to pitch for the Phils. He was actually better, if memory serves me correctly, in pure, 9th inning save situations.
Yes, he seemed to struggle in non-save situations like many closers do.
A tie is not a hold situation – a hold is when you enter the game with a lead and hold the lead before the closer.
I like this move for Detroit. Adds depth at multiple positions with Sands and Maton likely getting significant playing time.
agreed; if DET was expecting a big, sexy name for Soto, then they were simply overvaluing the trade value of an inconsistent reliever. This kind of Maton, Vierling, Sands move is exactly what a weak DET team with a million holes needs to be doing. Soto had no real value to this DET team as currently constructed, so I think they did well to turn that into three players who could potential get everyday at-bats.
This trade is even worse than the JD Martinez deal. Is AA back as Tigers GM? Total swindle for DD. Congrats Phillies.
MLBTR should fire the guy that wrote Kody Klemens. Don’t you guys have copy editors? (Hire me. I was one once.)
Error graf: “They’ll also pick up Klemens, a utility infielder who got his first taste of the big leagues in 2022. The son of long-time pitcher Roger, Klemens slashed just .145/.197/.308 with five home runs over 127 plate appearances for the Tigers in 2022. The 26-year-old did hit a much more robust .274/.327/.535 line at Triple-A.”
I don’t think they have editors because they make gobs of errors routinely just because they want to be “first.”
The writers don’t understand lots of principles of punctuation or grammar either.
Terrible start for Scott Harris. Total swindle by DD.
It’ll be at least a few months before we know who won this trade. And it might take years.
ThonolansGhost;
There is a good chance that within 2-3 years all those guys will be playing elsewhere and no one will remember this trade.
And there’s a better chance that it doesn’t work out that way.
Michael Fulmer still unsigned. Will Harris call him?
I like Fulmer too….even as a starter again which in the long run may be better for him instead of the constant appearances and warming up. Is he a closer? As much as anybody else is in that pen. Look for some of the kids brought up last year to end up as bullpen pieces. Since wonderboy picked up two rummage sale starters, there’s not much room for them in the rotation.
No, he was made a reliever because of the wear and tear. Warming up doesn’t put wear in your arm – innings do!
Maton’s got ice water in his veins when tasked with producing in key spots. It’ll be interesting to see what he can do as an everyday player.
Am a big fan of “Nicky Bats”……Hope he pans out as a 2nd division starter or more….
Yea I’m gonna miss him a bit, to be honest. Was looking forward to seeing more of a full season from him, but of course with Turner/Stott up the middle, Maton’s path to more playing time was on a different team.
Yeah, you are right….and the Phils seem to like Sosa….
Guess it is a good sign they can move on from certain guys…..? I’ll still check in on the Detroit stats page…..
D.D builds winning teams everywhere he goes. Detroit got three good sized guys who will be around till 28, so Harris did good there. Big win for Soto as well. Detroit had no real need for closer types so trading them is a good idea. Tigers still have guys they can move like Schook, Baez, and E rod.
I used to think Rob Deer was the worst hitter I’d ever seen in a Detroit uniform but Baez has stolen Deer’s title. If you were going to make a video about hitting you’d use Baez as examples of what to never do in the batter’s box.
Baez swings at a lot of bad pitches, but he’s a good player.
Stats aside, and the newcomers have decent stats, you have to trust Harris in that he knows NL players and prospects. They will have to see AL pitching for the first time and that’s never easy. Pitchers have a much easier time changing leagues so that will help Soto for a couple months until he’s scouted for tendencies. Harris seems big on stockpiling catchers which is fine since the attrition rate on them is high in a 162 season and Dingler needs more time or a new position since he’s got triples speed, rare for a catcher.
I don’t know about being able to move Baez. Detroit would have to eat a lot of the money owed to Javy to find a willing trade partner. Cubs lucked out by not only avoiding having to pay Baez, but by also getting such a high-upside centerfielder as PCA from the Mets.
I don’t hate the players they got but would have much preferred to see them go for some of St Louis’ “spare parts”…one or more of Gorman, Yepez, Burleson, Winn. They seem to have grabbed quantity over quality here. Maton is the one who most interests me, but I sure would prefer Gorman. Clemens was not part of the future in Det and we can find the next Soto…probably even amongst Harris’ 8 million waiver claims.
Just like I predicted.
You know that it is a fair deal for both sides when so many fans of each team are crying that they got swindled.
I really think that Sands will surprise Tigers fans, and that they will love Maton even if he isn’t a starter. I am not as bullish on Vierling but he is already a viable 4th OF and platoon bat. There is no elite prospect in there at all, but I truly think that the Phils might bemoan this deal unless they can tune up Soto as they did Alvarado.
All in all however, an intelligent gamble for both sides given where they each stand on the competition scale.. Very creative if you think about it. This is an unusual deal.
This looks like a good trade for the Tigers. Soto is such a roller coaster, frightening closer as you never know what you’re going to get with him, so happy to see this ride shipped elsewhere. In Maton and Vierling appears Tigers receive one potential starter for 3rd and a platoon partner for either Carpenter or Badoo. Sands will now compete with Dingler for catcher of the future.
Also believe the Tigers have enough pitching depth to not miss Soto and his hysterics , but would be good to see either a Chafin or Fullmer reunion
I agree with what you say. If Fetter couldn’t fully sort Soto out then good luck to the Phillies and Fetter magic will turn someone like Zack Logue into the next Soto. Vierling is better than Reyes and Willi Castro as a 4th OF. I think Baddoo will start and have a good season so Vierling is stuck as the 4th OF. Sands numbers are interesting and Maton has some skills. Cross your fingers kind of deal. If one of them works out I think the Tigers win this deal. But I was still hoping for more of a home run on the return given the state of the pitching market.
Looks like a really weak return for the Tigers, crap shoot on a catcher and a couple of AAAA players.
Great return. I’m shocked they got two major league players for a guy like Soto. It’s a freakin’ steal for the Tigers.
Got 3 teams in same division all a reasonable wager to win 95 and up games. Now that’s competitive!
Some of Soto’s numbers are better than I would have thought, but man it seems like he walks and hits a lot of guys to start an inning and it goes to hell. Can’t wait to see how this trade flushes out as I have no feel for Harris and his trades yet.
Dombrowski strikes again!
Decent deal for Scott Harris and the Tigers also.
With the Phillies improved defense up the middle SS, CF catcher, 2B, and better hitters,
Soto could have a much better saves and won/loss record in Phillie.
Soto’s performance in Detroit was very impressive since he has toiling for one of the
worst offensive and defensive teams in MLB.
(Tigers bullpen was good though).
Vierling impressed me in some of this Phillies games.
He could be moved around and play 130+ games in INF and OF.
If Maton and Sands play like they are capable of playing and maybe take a few steps forward, then this is a “win/win” deal for both teams.
Surprised that the Tigers did not shop Soto to the Dodgers for some of the Dodgers young position players at AAA and AA blocked at the major league level.
The Tigers/Scott Harris have the right idea: Trade a few of their best players to get multiples of young players with big upside in return.
The ceiling on the players received may be a tad low, (unless a few of these former Phillies “break out” and perform better than expected @ the MLB level). But, the Tigers and Harris are working on the right formula for future successes.
SportsFan, Detroit had a pretty decent defensive team last year. They ranked 13th in defensive runs saved, while the Phillies ranked 25th in the same category.
Please enlighten me. How did Soto have a -.1 WAR last year while posting an ERA and FIP in the 3’s over 60 innings?
Big red flags buried an inch deep. He changed his whole arsenal last year, throwing WAY more sinkers than usual, and lucked out by keeping everything in the yard (which is indeed mostly luck). This guy is literally in the dictionary next to “Regression.”
Tigers did very well here.
YAWN……
At first I thought this is a killing by DD and the Tigers destroyed their only positive from last season. After looking deeper, I think this is a win-win for both teams. The Phillies only needs a RP-L to make a good balanced pen. Gregory Soto will be better with a good team around him. Conversely, all three of these position players will be full time performers for the Tigers by the end of the season. I think mid season trades will clear out the Tigers veterans.
Great! Harris filled the holes at C and 3B. Except, now we have a hole at Closer.
Lange!
Lange will do as well as Soto ever did, maybe better.
Philly has good balance in the ‘pen and D-town gets some solid depth. Good trade.
Detroit getting Sands should not stand in the way of Dillon Dingler, right? I thought that MLB.com has his ETA as 2023.
Dingler should start with the Mud Hens this year. If he does well, he could be in Detroit by midsummer. Too many catchers isn’t such a bad problem to have. If all their catchers do well, they can always unload one or two of them at the trade deadline.
There isn’t nearly enough mention of his 11 losses. Who cares if he has 30 saves when he lost 11 games?
He’s saved 48 out of 52 games the last 2 years. His losses mostly came in tie games with a runner on second and a poor offense who didn’t help him. Hinch failed to recognize that he’s best with a lead in the 9th.
Those extra inning losses with the Manfred man shouldn’t count. Screw Manfred! He is messing up the sport.
I remember Sands when he was in the Yankees system. I’m glad he finally made it to the Majors.
Pretty significant bullpen upgrades for the Phils.
As a Tigers fan, it’s not a thrilling return but it makes pretty good practical sense.
1. Yes, I think the consensus is that contending teams are tempted to overpay for a relief pitcher who’s had a good season or two. And this doesn’t seem like overpaying. But ….
2. The market for relief pitchers this off-season has been hot and active. If you assume Harris has just average skills as a GM, he’s had time to test the market, field potential offers for Soto, and evaluate the comps.
3. Assuming #2 is reasonable, the Tigers have a lot of room for upside here. All 3 players have years and years of control. Sands doesn’t have any MLB experience but Maton and Vierling have shown they’re at least as good and maybe better than the guys the Tigers had/have [?] for those positions. I checked only very quickly, so correct me if I’m wrong – and apologies if so – but all three look like, from their AAA & MLB experience look like they have decent or better strike zone judgment. The Tigers can work with a “decent” or “okay” player without a lot of power or a high BA, but they’ve been overloaded with guys with bad strike-zone judgment. (This part is just my personal view but if I’m trying to fix a terrible team, assuming a decent coaching staff, I’d take boring guys who know the strike zone over ones with flashy power but have a KO/BB ratio of 4:1 or more.)
Not even an attorney on fee reads items that long.
He actually made some good points.
That’s a reasonable criticism baseballteam. When I get interested enough in an issue to express an opinion, I tend to go into more detail than most other posters. It’s not that I think everyone considers my analysis so important or insightful that they’re waiting to find out what Cray MC thinks on the issue.
Just what happens when I’m interested enough to write something.
I would sign Fulmer now DD get it done
All three players the Phillies sent were highly expendable assets that were all blocked at the ML level. They probably were happy to get rid of them!
Waiting for the Red Sox Cry babies and their team organ, ESPN, to attack Dave Dombrowski for this deal. Just because they made a huge mistake in letting Dombrowski go, the Red Sox (John Henry, Tom Werner, Sam Kennedy then flooded the New England Boston/NY Sports Media with trash talk about Dombrowski?!
Dombrowski is a 1st Ballot Hall of Fame MLB Executive who has lead 4 different teams to the World Series for the 1st time in MLB history.
Be happy with the “geniuses in the Red Sox ” brain trust”
who let Dombrowski go in favor of Chaim Bloom LMFAO!
Is Al Avila back? Great asset for three turds. JD Martinez part 2. Embarrassing. Awful, awful trade for Tigs. DD just swindled his old team.
I’ll be you will turn out to be wrong on the three players. I suspect two of them will turn out to be very valuable MLB players. Both teams got better with this deal.
Scott Harris is doing the right thing implementing the Tigers business plan:
flood the Tigers major league roster and farm system with loads of young talent.
Build The Detroit Tigers depth @ all positions.
Let the great, hungry young talent fight for big league jobs and playing time.
Don’t block positions and roster spots with over paid, declining veteran players.
Multiple guys/players will work hard to put together breakthrough seasons.
DO NOT GIVE UP ON TORKELSON, Green and foundational young players.
San Diego gave up on Rizzo when he struggled as a rookie and traded him for a
young starter who did not amount to much of anything in the big leagues.
Rizzo became a star for the Cubs.
flood the Tigers major league roster and farm system with loads of young talent.
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I agree. The Tigers have a gazillion injuries last year, and the pitchers won’t recover in time to make them competitive in 2023.
I don’t think Vierling or Maton are high-ceiling players, but both have decent floors. Schoop was awful, and the outfield was awful. Maybe Greene develops, and maybe Meadows returns and maybe Carpenter can play a little.
But since 2023 will be a development year for the Tigers, they can afford to give Vierling & Maton a lot more ABs than Philly would’ve given them.
This is a type of trade I make in my fantasy league and gets vetoed. Great trade for Philly.
30 Parks19 hours ago
The Bloom lovers get a chance to bash Dombrowski. Dombrowski is so singularly focused on winning – what a burden.
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And which if these two GMs have won more over the past two seasons? Take your time; accuracy counts.
I don’t mind the trade. Soto was extremely frustrating and Clemens didn’t seem like any that special.
Maton would appear to platoon at 3rd with Kreidler and Vierling the same with Baddoo and occasionally Meadows. Now if Baddoo is awful again this season it would be a platoon with Carpenter, but I suspect he will spend most of the time at DH vs RHP.
Is it exiting? Nope, but it could be better than last year at least….