March 31, 2:05pm: Reynolds was looking for an opt-out after 2026, per Mark Feinsand of MLB.com. Reynolds is currently slated for free agency after 2025, so the Pirates would only gain one extra year of control in the event they agreed to that contract and he eventually opted out.
March 31, 1:35pm: Some more details on the negotiations come from Mackey (Twitter links one, two and three). He says that the eight-year, $106MM deal being discussed includes 2023 and that Reynolds is willing to backload the deal so that triggering his opt-out means walking away from the biggest salaries.
March 31, 12:40pm: The conceptual issue is indeed an opt-out clause, reports Rob Biertempfel of The Athletic. He adds that the two sides have come to an agreement around $106MM on the guarantee, roughly the middle point between the previous asking prices, but that Reynolds and his reps want an opt-out that the Pirates appear unwilling to give thus far.
March 30: The Pirates and outfielder Bryan Reynolds have been discussing a contract extension in recent days, with today’s opener reportedly considered a cutoff point. The season has now begun and it appears that there’s still no deal in place, per Jon Heyman of The New York Post, who adds that the two sides have an agreement on dollars but a “major conceptual issue” is getting in the way.
To this point, it’s unclear what this conceptual issue is. Jason Mackey of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette confirms Heyman’s report (Twitter links) and adds that the hangup is not “years/dollars or size of the thing.” If it’s not the length or the guarantee, it could be something like an opt-out or a no-trade clause, though that’s merely speculation.
Regardless of what the issue is, the fact that the two sides got closer on the money is encouraging. Discussions earlier this winter reportedly had the Pirates offering something in the $75-80MM range over six years while Reynolds’ camp was aiming for $134MM over eight years. The two sides were so far apart that Reynolds requested a trade. The Pirates appeared generally unmoved by that request and seemingly had no desire to drop their sky-high asking price. It’s a somewhat positive sign that the talks have been fruitful enough that a deal seems close, though it hasn’t yet gotten over the line.
It has been reported in recent days that the Opening Day game is something of a deadline for negotiations. The Pirates have now started their first game of the season and it seems a deal still isn’t in place. However, Mackey reports that both sides still view it as being possible.
Whether or not a deal comes together in the coming days or weeks remains to be seen. If the talks eventually end without a new deal, there’s nothing preventing further talks from starting down the road, though players often like to use Opening Day as a point to focus less on contractual matters and more on their on-field duties. Reynolds will be making $6.75MM this year as part of a two-year deal to avoid arbitration he signed going into 2022. The Pirates can still retain his services via arbitration for 2024 and 2025, with Reynolds currently slated for free agency after that. He’s coming into this season with a career batting line of .281/.361/.481 for a wRC+ of 126.
The issue is he wants the Pirates to go all in on a winning product and they won’t agree
That’s how this sounds to me too.
To me, it sounds more like a series of opt-outs, which would be a bad deal for the team.
If he wants a no-trade clause, give it to him.
That makes much more sense. When does a player ever negotiate a contract with his team only to turn around and say, “I will sign this if we are going to try to win.” Besides, this is the Pirates he’s dealing with. If he’s chasing championships, he would be looking forward to free agency. He’s no spring chicken and his years of service won’t likely last long enough for a miracle in Pittsburgh.
He’s definitely looking to secure payment and get an opportunity to hit the market on a high note should he turn in a big year for a shot at a big payday.
Neo: Plenty of players have told ownership they won’t sign unless the team will spend to build a winner. Ohtani wants to play on a winner so Moreno brought in some better players this year. If they don’t make the PO this season, Ohtani will likely not be an Angel in 2024. I think that was the same situation with Soto and Betts.
Unless the Angels make the WS there’s zero chance Ohtani stays.
Shohei’s going for the bag. Regardless.
The Angels annually trail the Dodgers and Padres in attendance and revenue. As great at Shohei is, he is a bigger draw on the road. If the Angels don’t start winning soon (and last night was kind of a snapshot of his time in LAA), not only will Ohtani leave, it will be foolish for the Angels to even bid for him.
We’re beating a dead horse here, let it rest…
With the exception of last season, the Angels were at 3+ million in attendance and always better than the Padres.
The Angels are top 5 in revenue and the Padres have been bottom 7 in revenue and receiving revenue sharing plus a CB draft pick as long as its been in existence.
The Dodgers are a huge revenue team. #2 in baseball. They also draw huge numbers in attendance.
Beating a dead horse…
Whipping a live mule…
Whatever it takes, boss.
Ohtani can demand championships on his next contract all he wants. Nobody will not give him any answer he likes on his next contract. He can make noise about anything. Bottom line is he is getting teams to pony up whatever dollars any team will offer and the demand is a clever ploy to get interested teams to come serious and correct with offers.
We’re talking about Reynolds here. .Bryan Reynolds. And the Pirates. Demands they be committed to winning? Take their money and express confidence in the organization or don’t. The idea that he will hold their feet to the fire and turn around the franchise fortunes because of these contract negotiations is laughable.
Going in in a winning product would begin with young controlled players from the minors. They have that going on.
A bit speculative. “Going all in” on winning is very relative depending on what side you’re on.
How do you even put “going all in” language in a contract? What does that even mean? There are many ways to build winning teams.
Not shelling out excessive $$$ for a good but not great outfielder is one way to build a winning team. .
Assuming Reynolds falls somewhere between his elite 2021 season and last year’s 2.8 fWAR, the $14MM-$15MM per year he signs for will be a bargain.
If Nutting thinks so, Good on him.
As a Yankees fan, I’d like to see them try their prospects. They ruined Andujar by screwing around with him. Now they’re constantly trying to fill their LF slot with other team’s vets instead of giving their own youngsters a go.
You probably don’t put it in a contract. It’s the conversation you have in a sit down with the GM and others to get their plan for the Pirates future.
Reynolds: “I don’t wanna stay here if you’re gonna keep being cheap.”
Pirates: “We’re working on building a young team and we plan to augment that by spending money on veteran talent and building a winner here in Pittsburgh”
Yeah you’d think the “conceptual issue” would be the concept of being locked into one of the worst teams in baseball for the prime of his career.
Some things may depend on how much his wife/family like the idea of being around Pittsburgh too. Where to bring your family influences some free agents, recent example being Bryce Harper. It ain’t always (only) the money…
Bro no one offered Harper anything close to what Philly did. He didn’t care about Philly at all. He just wanted the payday.
Fascinating, to think you’d give away money to play in *Philadelphia.*
If somebody offered me $100 million guaranteed dollars to play baseball, I wouldn’t care if it was the Little Sisters of the Poor orphanage. Sign me up.
And there won’t be an agreement between Reynolds and the Pirates.
You’ve never been right about anything regarding Reynolds, Captain.
Why start now?
@TheMan 3- Ok, and look still no deal… look’s like I was right about this one, tough guy.
You and TheMan… heh heh heh…
You and CaptainJudge99… heh heh heh…
Yankees fans still holding out false hope…
How is that? Since Reynolds isn’t really a true need. Smh
Since all large markets have been treating small markets like their farm clubs. But you will never admit it just like MLB. Smh
Who won’t admit what?. If a team ACTS like a farm club, people treat it so. Don’t blame everyone else because your owner hides under 50 feet of crap and collects revenue-sharing money.
The OTHER Ohio club gave the Yanks all they could handle in the playoffs last year. ‘Small market’ or not.
Hey Bronx, atracking the messager instead of addressing the message is misdirection typical of certain politicians.
My team’s owner has nothing to do with the revenue disparity problem bringing down a once great sport. But someone from the Bronx will never admit that.
Guardians and Rays are the exception rather than the rule. There are 20 other teams fans that would agree.
Hey Reds, if your dumb owner doesn’t want to sell his team then that’s on him. Isn’t it about competing? When owners spend more $ doesn’t it draw in more fans? Can’t compete, then sell the team.
The Reds owner told Reds fans to take it or leave it.
Those are your choices. No one ‘attacked’ you. I understand you have issues with long standing abuse and neglect. Perhaps that makes you cower in the corner.
There have been no back-to-back World Champions since the turn of the century. Lots of different teams are getting in on the action. Sorry your team’s owner chooses to use your fandom as a bunch of ATMs.
Forest. Trees.
Enough said.
^ Forrest. Gump. Now enough said.
No worries all this losing and not competing has gone to his head. Poor kid.
The Padres are a small market team and showed you are 100% wrong. The owner of the Reds can spend more but chooses to pocket 10s of millions in revenue sharing money instead. Be mad at the owners of your team. They are the problem. Much like Nutting is the problem.
I think you miss Marge, Schottzie.
So you admit you are proving “stupid is as stupid does”? Good for you.
If you look at their income streams, the Pads are FAR from a small market team. Also, the large value of some of their contracts are down the road. Probably after this owner sells out.
But thanks for playing.
Seattle used your team like a farm team. Seattle! Psssh.
You must be Red-faced. A lot.
Heh heh heh heh.
HEH HEH HEH HEH!
When the Brewers have to sell off their guys later this year, I’m sure you’ll say they have a bad owner too instead of admitting the reason why.
Yanks won 99 games last year, Red-faced one. Maybe Bryan Reynolds is the one with false hope. Not our fault you guys can’t fill Great American Smallpark.
In other words, it’s the owner. Like everyone else said.
Thanks for playing.
With yourself, apparently.
You’re just mad they didn’t take the Yankees lame offer for Castillo.
Again, insults instead of addressing the issue.
I’m sure you are enjoying mom’s basement. Maybe if you climb out sometime you’ll see a world outside your little one.
No use trying to hav an intelligent conversation with large market apologists. They are not capable.
I’m out.
Shiddy management is a factor too.
“Well? BYE!”
He isn’t out, folks…
99-63. That’s a basement, eh junior?
One man’s basement (man-cave), is another boy’s penthouse.
Not just out.
Outdone.
Reds, Brewers, As, Royals,Rays, Indians, Orioles, Dbacks, Rockies, Twins of course everyone’s favorite, the Pirates. Padres don’t really fit with this group in terms of market size.
Which team was the last to win the WS? The Royals i think. Only one of those teams is consistently not bad in recent times the Brewers. seems like they just might have a better front office than the 10 of the smallest markets
the front offices for the pirates have long said if they think they can win, they will spend more. They did just that when they were winning… then it fell apart with generally horrible moves that the pirates are just now starting to recover from. if a fair amount of prospects pan out you can expect to see them spending where it makes sense.
I used to live in Missouri. Also San Diego.
The Cardinals and Royals operate under the exact same market conditions. Yet the Cardinals do a much better job of actually marketing their teams than the Royals do, and thus they reap the benefits, year in, year out. Same with the Padres and Dodgers. I lived in SD for ten years, when they were a ‘small market’ team. Even when they were good, I could turn on the TV, and catch Cubs, Braves, Mets, and Dodgers games EASIER than the Padres… the home town team! Markets are NOT static. They are created.
The Royals and Chiefs literally play side-by-side. The Chiefs sell out Arrowhead, while the Royals have tens of thousands of tickets available on game day. Why?
I definitely get your point. Comparing 8 or 9 football games to 81 baseball games really isn’t the same thing, though.
The Cardinals and Royals play 81 home games each. People come from 8 states to watch the Cardinals. Many zip by KC to do so. And if you’re on either I-70 or I-44, you can’t find a Royals game on the radio most of the time (I tried… I liked Denny Mathews). But you literally have to AVOID Cardinals games, even driving from Oklahoma up the I-44.
The Cardinals market their product well. The Royals do not. For that matter, the Cubs market THEIR games well… and the Chisox do not.
Padres recieve revenue sharing and the extra draft pick. While you have no clue what that are bringing in, MLB does. Padres are in bottom 7 in revenue.
But thanks for playing.
Not sure who you’re addressing, though it sounds like Red Man.
I have no idea what the Padres are bringing in. I do know their attendance is huge these days… as I’ve said, they’ve dwarfed the Shohei Angels of Anaheim the last few years. Is their TV deal horrible?
I used to be a Padres season tix holder, 1996-2002. Why I’m asking.
*I think I know who you were addressing. Reread the thread.
Padres are the 27th largest market in the US and one of the 7 smallest in MLB. That is why they recieve revenue sharing and the extra draft pick. They have shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that other owners are just pocketing the big market teams money.
I believe the Padres current owner is Walter O’Malley’s grandson. Love O’Malley or hate him, he had brains and balls.. I’m thinking the apple (grand-apple?) didn’t fall far from the tree. I’d love to know where he is succeeding where Arte Moreno is not.
You do know that Pittsburgh is not in Ohio, right?
Padres are far from a small market. They attract from a huge SoCal population base. Plus they’re the only pro sports team in SD. Not to mention the owner receives 100% of parking concessions. Never any bad weather to dampen attendance, etc. All adds up to revenues equal to a larger mid market franchise.
The argument all small market owners should spend the Padres is about as dumb as me saying every large market owner should spend like Cohen.
I love it when Yankees fans make fun of the size of another team’s stadium while basking in the shadow of the 347 foot sign in the RF Power alley.
It is very true that mlb is market based to a point…. As a brewers fan my team does not get the tv revenue of the large markets not even close the owner doesn’t change that … we do compete we do draw fans (top ten every year)… the prob I have is we do great to draft and develop but no shot of retaining any player…. If mark sells the team it don’t change anything it probably gets worse… I would like to see a salary cap and floor but that will never happen and the big markets would never agree to throwing all the tv money in one pool and splitting it up equally… we know we are a feeder team and that’s not fair we cannot pay burnes woody and Adames so they will get moved eventually and that’s sad for baseball..I would also like to see all draft picks available to be traded.. that makes the nfl draft fun why don’t mlb implement that say brewers trade burnes for x prospect and a 24 first round pick ( plus the slotted money) mlb just always seems late to the ball….
Angels TV deal is about $100 million more per season than the Padres. Angels outdrew the Padres all but 2 seasons since 2000.
After the Chargers left town, the Padres found themselves as the only major pro sport in town and they took advantage, All the sponsorship money from local businesses now comes their way. As does the corporate luxury box sales. By making the playoffs two of the last 3 seasons they have brought in large amounts of revenue from that. Winning draws more fans to the stadium and they are reaping the benefits of that increase in revenue too.
The CEO of the Padres said that the ownership group was not “out of pocket” last season (and won’t be in 2023) so the team did not lose money. That would put the Padres at $350-$400 million in revenue if they were close to break even. We know from statements from Manfred that the Angels have larger revenue than the Braves, who were at $588 million in 2022.
And another thing if big market teams are not “pampered” why the heck are the brewers playing the cubs in CHICAGO in March (they have years in a row)! When 45 minutes north in Milwaukee they have a roof!!!! But no let’s play in Chicago….. it’s more fun in 40 degree weather and heavy winds then a controlled 70 degree environment….. the ONLY reason is the market…. Take a series of brewers home games vs the cubs in the dog days move it to Wrigley move opening series to Milwaukee where it’s more comfortable for the fans…. But it’s Chicago they get it it’s stupid…. Theres no way we play tomm with the weather coming in so now we will have to find a make up game on the FIRST series of the season…if they held it in Milwaukee it’s a 100% chance they play… I watched that game yesterday and Wrigley was maybe 60% full (don’t blame them I’m a brewers fan but I won’t go to a baseball game at 40 degree when I can watch it at home) … in Milwaukee that would have sold out easy… prob with more cub fans then brewer fans… (45 minutes apart) I love baseball but they cater to the big markets so much it impedes the game.. play in enclosed stadiums or in warmer climates for the first few weeks… I heard a cubs fan say well then we don’t get alot of early home games… why do you want them early???? If your in the race don’t you want home games at the back end???
The Reds owner told fans to suck it. He wasn’t going to spend to win and if they didn’t like then they were SOL, he had the only game in town and doesn’t care what they want.
I would be livid too if the Reds were the team I rooted for because you can be certain that you will never see a winning home team as long as he is the owner.
The Padres don’t have one owner. They have an ownership group. Peter Seidler is the largest shareholder, but even he doesn’t own more than 50%. .
B.I.L. was right, the Padres are the 27th largest market and in one of the 7 smallest markets in baseball. The reason they have received revenue sharing every year it has been part of baseball is because they are one of those 7 smallest market teams.
They are hemmed in by OC and Riverside which belongs to the Angels and Arizona which belongs to the Diamondbacks. They can draw from Tijuana, but its Mexico and they don’t control those TV rights.
The owners of the Padres don’t receive parking revenue. Almost all of it is privately owned and only one small lot is owned by the team.
Every large market team should be required to spend like Cohen. The only way the players are going to get up to the 50% of gross revenue that is paid to to athletes in every other major sports in the US is by every team spending much more.
Peter Seidler is the controlling partner of the Padres
The rest of the ownership group is:
His uncle Peter O’Malley
Brian and Kevin O’Malley (Peter O’Malley’s sons)
and former controlling partner Ron Fowler.
There are a number of other minority partners, but these 5 control more than 90%.
Seidler realized that when the Chargers left that the Padres were the only game in town and .if he could put a winning team on the field he could draw not only fans, but all of the sponsorship, advertising, and luxury box rentals that used to go elsewhere. He also knew that playoff teams rake in huge amounts of revenue for home games. A month’s worth of revenue per game
He is an incredibly smart business man. Worth $3.5 billion on his own.
I forgot Peter’s brother Tom, who is also a Senior VP with the team. 6 guys that own 90+ % of the team.
@bronxmac77- I miss her dog more then I miss her! Lol.
Hey Reds, that’s funny ask the Reds now if they would of made the trade with the Yankees last year. Cincy would of ended up with Jasson Dominguez, Trey Sweeney, Ken Waldichuk, JP Sears, and Luis Medina. A much better deal then they got from Seattle. Castillo is a really nice pitcher, but face the facts the Reds blew it.
@bronxmac77- has Reds faced the facts that he just got owned by you? Lolololololol!!!
The RF power alley at US is 385.
Steeee-rike!
Your owner does effect the TV market. Teams that invest in TV/radio/media do far better than teams that operate on the cheap. Some of that, I agree, is due to MLB and their crappy marketing overall. How come I can see lots of Green Bay Packers games, but no Brewers games. I have nephews in New York that wear BRETT FAVRE jerseys!
Padres are a fairly unique situation. They had a fairly large infusion of cash in recent years. It is not properly shown on sites like forbes which does not take that into account on paper.
lumping them together with any other group of teams for financials at this time just doesn’t quite work.
Padres receive revenue sharing. MLB knows how much they are making. That’s all we need to know.
Bill James used to write about this.
For some team owners, just being a team owner is the goal. Someone is always the worst, the cheapest _looking_ team owner. But if that’s all you can afford, ***you still own a baseball team.***
We can see them as we wish, and call them cheap, and they may or may not be since they won’t open the books, but there are a few team owners for whom just being able to sit in the owner’s box and eke by year to year, is a big freaking deal, and if that means winning 75 games in a good year, so be it.
Joe, the Rays are a consistent playoff team. So are the Guardians.
With the exception of 2016, the Pirates have not been out of the bottom 6 in payroll with Nutting as the managing partner of the team. They have been dead last in spending 4 of those years and in the bottom 3 in spending for 13 of the 17 seasons since he took over in 2007.
It’s a shame. The team of Honus Wagner, Roberto and Pops… Reduced to dumpster diving.
@Baseballlife they are projected to be out of the revenue sharing benefactors in 2024. Along with the uncertain effects of the TV deals.. they might be hurting for a year or two… eventually they should be able to get the TV issues worked out.
sorry forgot about the Ray’s and Indians. they’ve been pretty decent.
They’ve also been near the bottom third in value and revenue consistently.. quite a few of these smaller market teams are as well but the pirates get picked on a lot, especially after they started losing and not being able to put it together then giving up and dropping pay roll off the map.
Cleveland and Pittsburgh are pretty much on par financially this season. Be interesting to see how the w/l comparison is. not a 1:1 comparison but still interesting.
What it boils down to is the front office. since the pirates success, it has been pretty horrible. I’m not overly confident NH will bring the pirates to the top but I do think he’ll be better than NH.
After Nolan Arenado was ‘assured’ of such things from the Rockies, and it didn’t remotely come to pass, I’d have pause as well with an ownership group which hasn’t been serious about contending since Cutches last run with the team.
The article says conceptual, so I think the Pirates and Reynolds differed on their general concept of money, one felt it was a just a social construct attached to colorful slips of paper, the other saw it as pure self esteem.
This is hilarious. Case, I hope you are a writer. I’m planning to steal that, if you don’t mind. So, so funny.
actually the issue is a “ no trade clause “ but thanks for your input Nostradamus
What’s your problem?
A real big surprise here.
Pirates are actually willing to pay? I think the hangup is the Pirates being shocked he’d accept their offer or pending a ship hijacking going as planned so they can afford it.
Yawn, (scratch) burp, fart, scratch again.. Time to watch BB
This is old & beyond…I need a beer
Mmm… beer…
Conceptually, Pirates should probably pay him the $6.75, and then go through arbitration with him. If a trade is offered that is particularly enticing, take it. Pirates are not going to be competitive for a while, might as well get cheap younger talent. And the player himself will make plenty through arb, if if he’s traded, would likely get an extension from the acquiring team.
Braves kept Freeman through a rebuild and that helped get them a World Series title.
If they go through arbitration, they pay Reynolds more money.
I thought he wanted to be traded. Then he wanted a contract. Now it’s a size thing? I just can’t make up my mind.
He wanted to be traded based on the idea the Pirates were not going to budge from their initial offer
He wants to play on a contender, too…
This is the reason why the Pirates need to trade this poor guy.
it’s impossible to explain logic to some people, TJECK
I’m going to guess the hold out is a opt out year. Pirates are likely wanting to have the commitment go both ways and not be held hostage by the idea he’s going to up and leave and they get nothing for him.
Not saying it’s the right approach for the pirates but I’d almost guarantee it’s opt out years
Sounds like he’s saying “you guys are offering me an amount of money I’m okay with, except for the concern that my contract would then bloat the budget and you guys wouldn’t be able to do anything else and so I’d be one of those bizarre overpays on one player that prevents the rest of the franchise from competing unless other players accept low ball offers or you rely on getting lucky with cheap team controlled players and low ball bounce back deals during my entire contract duration. I want assurances I am the first of many big budget salary adjustments…and I want opt outs in case I completely lose my faith in you guys and can go be the free agent I know I could be.”
Then maybe he could offer the team opt outs in case they completely lose faith in his ability to be part of a winning team.
Yes! Although perhaps adding the word “contributing”, so that it reads “in case they completely lose confidence in his ability to remain a contributing part of a winning team” to ensure his production doesn’t crater along the way.
There’s nothing conceptual about contacts.
What does birth control have to do with this?
The answer will come soon after this pregnant pause…
We’re talking about Bryan Reynolds not what Manny Ramirez used to beat steroid tests 🙂
An opt-out after so many years if the team’s record is under a certain threshold is something I would want if i was Bryan.. If I was performing well and the team isn’t looking up in 2025 fair chance i would want to look for greener pastures. I can certainly see that as a sticking point.
Nice to hear that they’re comfortable with the numbers though. With that part mostly out of the way i can see them continuing to talk at least for a few more days into the season.
Must say I am excited. the trade request report in the off season soured me to Bryan some but that might have just been frustration talking with all the trade rumors and theory crafting. do not know but that’s what i am going to choose to think until he says otherwise.
If he wants an opt out and no trade, I shut this down as well, especially if he is doing like Hayes and getting it frontloaded.
He probably wants an opt out available in case he IS dealt. He’d end up getting dealt to just about anyone with this reported $$. There might be places he’d rather be much less than Pittsburgh
Future Cub Bryan Reynolds will play out his years with the Pirates before moving on to bigger and better things
The lovable losers from the Windy City? I thought you say bigger, better things.
Maybe you’re living in some strange time warp. Bigger and better things aren’t to be found at Wrigley
If the rumor had any truth—that part of this was due to Reynolds wanting to be with a contender—then he has to look around the lineup and be much more heartened than what he’s been saddled with the past few seasons
They’re still likely a 70-75 win team, but Cruz, Hayes, Suwinski, Bae and many more of the kids are only going to mature and improve. Having Cutch, Santana and Choi around in the batting order isn’t going to hurt
Pirates are undefeated this year.
demands to play center field
he has already acknowledged he is better at left field and didn’t seem to mind being moved.
He’ll do as he’s told
It’s probably a opt out. Or WHERE the opt out is..
Opt outs basically put all the risk on the team.
Staying in Pittsburgh is a huge risk for a player that wants to win at some point in their career.
Sounds like the Pirates want to defer money and he isn’t interested at all. I can’t blame him. I’m excited to see where he goes at the deadline
Opt outs are awful for a team. Hold strong Nutting. Sign our deal or play 3 years for minimum wage. Offer more $ in exchange for no opt out. Or give opt out in exchange for team opt out the next year. Just absolutely don’t give out a Padre contract.
Reynolds is currently under control for 3 more seasons including this one. He’ll make 6.75M$ this year then go through arb twice.
This contract would essentially pay him 6.75, ~10.125, ~13.5, ~16.875 for 5 FA years. He wouldn’t be a FA again until he’s entering his age 36 season. (Edit: actually this would give him 114.75M$, which is 8.25M$ more than is being currently reported)
That’s super team friendly for a career 127 OPS+ player in today’s market. It could be the last contract he signs, without an opt-out.
I’d give him the opt out but after 5 years not 4, PIT would at least be guaranteed to get him for 2 FA years. If he sucks, and doesn’t opt-out then the Pirates are only on the hook for 3 additional years at sub 20M$ year salaries – that shouldn’t break them and is worth the gamble to get him for at least 2 additional years. If he’s great and opts out, then PIT got him for below market value an extra 2 years and he has the opportunity to sign another contract via FA entering his age 33 season.
Yes. Opt out 2027 or later is fine. 2026 is not acceptable.
His current salary in 2023 is part of a very team friendly 2 year deal he signed before the start of the 2022 season. He is projected to earn $15-17 million in arbitration in 2024 and $21-23 million in 2025.
He is asking for the opt out prior to his age 31 season so that he has a shot at another big dollar deal if he has far outperformed the valuation of the deal with the Pirates. And also to make sure that he is not trapped on a losing team for 8 seasons.
Minimum wage? Based on this websites algorithm for arbitration salaries, Reynolds will get more than $15 million for 2024, more than $20 million for 2025. That may be minimum wage for Fortune 500 CEO’s, but not for baseball players.
8/106 is a $13.25 million AAV. Its a bargain. Give him the opt out after 2026. If the team still sucks he deserves to get out of there.
Minimum wage for him.
They already control him through 2025 with no extension and I wouldn’t hold my breath about the prospect of him pulling a “Nolan Arenado” and opting in if he and his agent think he can do better come the 2026-27 offseason, even if the Pirates win the WS in 2026.
Guess you missed the part of the article where it says Reynolds was on with the deal being heavily backloaded so he would be opting out of most of the money.
He wants to win. Do you blame him for wanting to stay if the Pirates continue to suck year after year?
If he and his agent think they can beat his remaining contract as a FA he’s opting out. Even if the Pirates win the WS in 2026.
“He wants to win.” As opposed to wanting to lose? That’s every player. You think Ke’Bryan Hayes wants to lose? Because I don’t.
Some contraceptive use might help.
I’m shocked. I assume the issue is he didn’t want to be paid in Pesos, He wanted real money. Those exchange rates will kill ya.
It’s an opt-out.
Nice call, slick.
Is an opt out conceptual ?
I’ve got it as a material thing. Got to be something new doesn’t it ?
Makes it sound like they have different views on foundational ethical theory, or maybe the degree to which truth claims are socially constructed.
He wants free wifi on the team plane. You know… that thing the Yankees don’t give their own players.
Free Wi-fi? On planes? Stanton and Judge could afford to buy a plane, plus all the wi-fi anyone could want.
cbssports.com/mlb/news/yankees-the-most-valuable-f…
si.com/mlb/2023/03/15/yankees-no-in-flight-interne…
I don’t do links. I prefer patties…. heh heh heh….
Seriously… the lowest ranking player on that flight makes $700 large. They need free wi-fi? Maybe some of them said “Hey! Screw the free Wi-fi…. give me the difference in cash!’
Took a glance at the article, YBC.
Reminds me of a cab driver in Detroit, who told me of a Yankee passenger that complained about the $72/day meal money, back in the 70’s. That player was Reggie Jack$on..
In the 70s, my Dad could feed all six of us for less than $72 a day. Far less.
I met Reggie once due to my past affiliation in the NYC nightlife scene. He was with Jeter and Gerald Williams and the least nice of the bunch.
Actually the lowest player makes 720K at a pro-rated rate. Something most people don’t ever think about. If the player is pre-arb and is optioned he then makes the pro-rated rate of his split minor league contract. It’s like OAK not paying for soda in their player locker room, just weird.
I believe that. Reggie was always for Reggie. First, last and always. Kind of like Joe D. Great ballplayers. Off the field, kind of jerks.
Again… If I don’t drink soda, I’d rather have $$$$. Yes, it’s cheap. You’d think any MLB team would spring for beverages. But the A’s being cheap doesn’t surprise me.
Mike Cameron, Cliff Floyd, David Wright, Rocco Balldelli… those guys I would hang with. Ironically, most are former Mets.
You weren’t required to eat out 2 meals a day for $72 per day. That per diem is only paid on the road.
In the 1970s that was a fortune.
I went to college in 1977, the same year Reggie hit 3 consecutive HRs (and 4 consecutive in two games) in the WS. Eating out, in NY, I could get a huge breakfast at IHOP for under $4. Big Macs were still under $1. A nice steak dinner with all the trimmings was under $10. Even in nice restaurants. I remember I had a great night at Roosevelt Raceway, won about $80. On the way home I treated the four guys with me to dinner and picked up the tab. As a poor college guy!
Reynolds…and a prospect…for Gleyber Torres. Two more years of control and in the Bucs park he’s good for 30+ HRS. We alleviate you of the contractual difficulty with Reynolds (I.e.he doesn’t want to be there) and give you a solid bat, all star caliber 2B man.
And the Pirates hang up. Yankees will have to offer a lot more than Gleyber which is a player they do not want.
Imagine, if you will, acting like you are doing the Pirates a favor by taking Bryan Reynolds off their hands.
I’d act like I were doing Reynolds a favor, by taking the Pirates off his hands.
SWB Pirates! I like it.
1 less year of control.
Need to throw in Garcia to sweeten the deal.
He’s voiced his preference of staying multiple times. But I also think he clearly wants the team to be competitive while he’s here – hence his wording of “a contract that’s fair for both sides”. I think the trade request was more of him saying I’m serious about wanting to compete. Buccos then made some additions to placate him. Talks opened back up. Eventually they found a number they’re happy with – but now something else has come up.
I wonder if it’s a stipulation on percentage of contract to overall payroll… like at any point during the contract his salary represents over 20% of the major league payroll he will be automatically eligible to opt out the following season.
He just wants $
Then why is he willing to backload the contract to a point where if he opted out he’d be missing out on the bulk of the $?
Because that’s better than playing 3 seasons with no guarantee of 106 million dollars. We will see if he opts out and loses tens of millions just so he can win. You will be on your 37th user name by then so maybe we won’t.
No it isn’t, even if he got hurt and missed the season he’d make 6.75M$ this year and at least 10M$ via arbitration this winter. Enough to live multiple lifetimes with. It’s not ridiculous to assume he would like to also play on a team dedicated to winning.
team dedicated to winning.? Does that sound like the Pirates?
37th user name? What?
Exactly
I’ve had exactly one username on here so I don’t know what you’re talking about. I think you’re confusing me for someone else.
Wow, what an interesting concept
I’m fine with an opt out, as long as it’s after the 4th year with an escalating salary each year of the contract. Then, he’d be walking away from the $.
An opt-out after 4 years only gives the Pirates 2 years of control on top of what they already have with no extension. Plus the possibility that he sucks by then and opts into what is at that point an underwater contract.
That depends on whether the current year is included in the 6. It could only be one additional year of team control. I agree that guaranteeing him money and also giving him an opt out is a bad deal for the team
Current season has already started so methinks any extension would start with 2024.
PIT can still make out big by giving an optout, assuming he continues to play well. The 1 or 2 FA years bought out would be below market rate.
An op-out after 4 years actually only gives them 1 year if the extension begins with the 2023 season.
Okay. So we now know that the prob was an opt out. Since they compromised on the dollar amount at $106m, let’s assume they compromised on the years and settled on 7. That’s an AAV of just over $15m. So give him an opt out after year 4 with an escalating salary. He then leaves more than $45m and walks after his age 32 season. Win-win. The Pirates buy out the first two years of FA and pay him for only his prime years through age 32. Big market teams with their own money making machines can buy him for his inevitable decline.
Remember – he’s likely to get nearly $30m in arbitration in 2024-2025 anyway. So the Pirates would be buying out two years at a similar AAV and letting him walk before he starts declining. They let Cutch and Marte walk at 30-31, and they’re both better than Reynolds. This makes an opt out advantageous to the frugal Bucs.
No if he opts out it means the Pirates WANT to be on the hook for the last 3 years. It’s very simple and can be backed up with numerous examples from every team in baseball. Opt-outs are NEVER advantageous for a team. Ever.
New update says Reynolds is willing to do exactly that – walk away from the big $ in an escalating salary contract.
If Bob is doing 106 at 7 years Pirate fans owe him an apology. I am going with 8 unless it’s 7 with a low team option for 8 and low buyout. Even that doesn’t sound like Bob.
It’s 8, but includes 2023, so just 7 more years. Essentially, 7/$100. That’s reasonable when compared to recent MLB contracts. If an opt out gets this done, I like it.
New update says Reynolds is willing to have escalating salary and walk away from the big $. Bingo! Get it done.
Just make sure the opt out follows his 2nd year of FA, at which point he’ll be 32. Let another club buy his ages 33-40 seasons.
Late opt outs are fine. Gaining 2 or 3 free agent years is a must. They only wanted him for 6 years to begin with.
If Reynolds is in a position where the Pirates want to, as you say, “Let another club buy his ages 33-40 seasons,” he’s not going to opt out. Name one player who opted out when his team wanted him to. One.
He says he’s willing to opt out of the contract before the biggest $$ comes due. Fine. I don’t give a rats patooty about anyone else. It’s irrelevant when Reynolds has already said he’d do it.
He will only opt out if the Pirates actively want to pay him “the biggest $$.”
No. If the Pirates sign him to a long term contract, they hope he stays. However, if he chooses to opt out of the contract, they don’t get to keep him, but they also don’t have to pay him. So giving him the opt out is beneficial to him, but also could benefit the Pirates, if after leaving the club to get more $$, he begins to decline, as everyone does, sooner or later.
“Name one player who opted out when his team wanted him to. One.”
Mate
If he chooses to opt-out the Pirates WANT to pay him. Because the alternative is to pay him even more money or pay someone else the same money for less production.
And no the opt-out does not benefit the Pirates if he opts out and then begins to decline because if it weren’t for the opt-out they could have traded him after 2026 for a boatload of prospects without eating any $ but with the opt-out they lose him for nothing. What sounds better to you: trading a player for prospects or losing him for nothing? Would you rather have prospects or not have prospects, all other things equal?
Still waiting for y’all to name one player who had an opt-out, used it and his team ended up being better off because he used it.
Treehouse22;
LOL
If he stinks in 2026 and elects not to opt-out because no one else will pay him teh money the Pirates ae on the hook for…..exactly how does this benefit the Pirates.
@Samuel I think what Treehouse22 meant was that the opt-out would benefit the Pirates if Reynolds plays well enough to opt-out but then sucks after he opts out. He’s still wrong about that, however, because as the gorilla astutely pointed out, if Reynolds played well in 2023-26, didn’t have an opt-out and the Pirates thought he was headed for a decline after 2026, he would at least figure to draw some trade interest at that point.
@thelegendaryharambe Well there was A. J. Burnett back in 2014. But he’s not a good example because he opted out based on wanting to play for a contender rather than strictly based on $. I don’t think Reynolds will do the same.
What I’d rather have is Reynolds, for 4 or 5 more seasons, not 3, and the only way they’re going to get him is if he gets an opt out in his contract. So the opt out benefits the Pirates because they get the man to sign with them for a year or two of free agency, and because it puts this distraction in the past.
The opt-out still doesn’t benefit the Pirates in and of itself as compared to the exact same contract with no opt-outs.
Except that the exact same contract with no opt outs will not exist, unless Reynolds has a change of heart. Understand sir, I concede that your point about losing any trade value if he opts out is a good one. However, I was thinking that if they wanted to trade him, they’d do it now, while he’s 28 and has three years of team control left on the books. I think they really want him on the club for years to come and that’s why they asked for a “Soto-like package” for him because they really do not want to lose him, and they are still negotiating with him because they want him badly. Unfortunately, they’re not in a position to offer the type of money that the Mets or Yankees or Padres are throwing around. They have to build winners slowly, and carefully. Thus, one nice run every decade or two. I pray they sign Reynolds. If not, they must at least keep him through the end of the 2023 season at $6.75m. It would be a travesty to trade him before then.
If I’m Cherington I’m trading him at the deadline if I haven’t extended him by that point. He will have lost 2/3 a season of control but the acquiring team will still get him for the part of the season that matters.
@Samuel ” I think what Treehouse22 meant was that the opt-out would benefit the Pirates if Reynolds plays well enough to opt-out but then sucks after he opts out.” This is exactly what I meant. Thanks. I concede that the loss of trade value after an opt out is a good point, but if they wanted to trade him, they’d do it now, when he’s 28 and has 3 years of team control left, not when he’s 31 or 32.. They really want this guy or they wouldn’t still be negotiating a long-term deal, and they wouldn’t have asked for a “Soto-like package” for him in trade, knowing full well that nobody would give them that much. So, if the only way to get this player to sign a contract is to include an opt out, then do it. They would still benefit from his skillset for another 4-5 years and we could put this incessant trade speculation to rest and have one less major distraction.
Nothing is easy for us Pirates fans. Still I’ll be surprised if a deal isn’t completed in coming days/weeks.
I’d be more surprised if a deal consummates at this point.
What’s more likely. Both parties holding their ground, my way or highway? Or finding at middle or someone caving?
I think Reynolds conceding a lot of money already if rumors are true of the total dollar amount he was originaly looking for. The ball is in the Nuttings’ court (bad pun intended).
I will go with he folds on opt out as well. Settles for 2027 2028.
Reynolds has to give Pirates at least two extra years of team control, otherwise they are taking on a ton of risk for very little reward (one year of play).
It seems likely the team has been using the wrong pronouns and he wants this situation rectified.
I wonder if he’s trying for an opt-out in case the rebuild doesn’t work out and I believe the Bucs are one of the teams that refuse to give them out. They wont spend to make up for it if the minor leaguers don’t work out and he probably doesn’t want to go through a second rebuild
He’s wondering how much more $ I can get if I have a 800 ops at 30 31.
If I were a Pirates fan, I’d rather trade him for a huge prospect haul. If they give out this deal, ownership will just use it as an excuse to be even cheaper and it will paint them into a corner. Bob Nutting is already dining on hot pockets and ramen every night so we have to see the human toll as well.
They don’t need excuses and most fans don’t care or believe them. No team wants to give a huge prospect return.
RetroBeers;
Sorry. Bryan Reynolds is not bringing back a “huge prospect haul”.
The fans and the media think that. No team is offering that.
Did you see the “huge prospect haul” the A’s got for Sean Murphy? Similar control years. Catcher is a far, far more important position than LF, and Murphy is a better player. Young quality catchers are
in demand. The A’s shopped him around. What they got from the Braves was the best they could get.
I think there were some fat trade packages on the table for Reynolds, it’s just that the Pirates were absurdly greedy so no deal was done. But all of us are speaking from a position of abject ignorance regarding trade proposals unless there are front office employees lurking here.
“You see, Bryan… can I call you Bryan? Good. Anyway, Bryan, you’re a big duck in a small pond. Actually, a pool or a pond. The pond would work better for you…”
I’m trying to think of two better position players on Yankees than him, but I just can’t.
I’m betting there are two issues.
Deferred money and no trade clause.
Nope. It was the opt-out.
Draftkings thanks you
No player is worth 22M per year
Not true.
#FreeBryanReynolds
More teams need to stick to their guns on opt outs. A six year contract is a six year contract. Otherwise, just sign a three year one. Idiocy.
Agreed on that.
And if a player doesn’t think a team will compete during his tenure, just sign elsewhere.
I agree but if you’re not going to budge on opt-outs you need to pay the player what he wants. The owners can certainly afford it.
or just force him through arbitration and pick up the discussion 3 years from now?
If he plays well enough to be worth keeping they won’t be able to afford to keep him as a FA. What I’m saying is I agree on not giving players opt-outs but you can’t do that and then also lowball them in terms of the total guarantee. It’s one or the other.
If I am the Pirates, I would balk at the opt out clause too. They have his rights for 3 more seasons. Why pay way more than they would if they don’t extend to have him leave for FA and no compensation? Makes no sense for the Bucs.
I don’t blame the Pirates. Makes no sense to give an opt out
note on today’s announcement that it is an opt-out. If i were the pirates. I would give a triggered opt out based on the previous seasons record after say 4 years or something. Bryan should still have something left in the tank at that point to find another job and the pirates could keep a star player if they are doing well. But with that concession i would want to add on a cheap buy out team option at the end with pay similar to the previous seasons.
of course, thats just like my opinion man
Guessing Reynolds is wanting an opt out after either 24 or 25. That would not make sense for either the Bucs to agree to that or for Reynolds to agree for anything after the 25 season
2026 tying it to record. Losing team it triggers.
2026 opt out triggered automatically if traded.
after 2026, limited no trade clause. I think he may have a limited no trade after that by default being a veteran with the same team that many years.. either way put that there.
and again drop on a team option(s) for another one or two years. while keeping the guarantee under 110m
Win for Bryan.
Win for Pirates
the market changes for trade partners some though.
teams looking for a stop gap would be the market.
regardless opt outs is not something you really see the pirates do on a MLB contract. I can not remember a time the pirates did one.
Not a ton of teams have done them.
So let me get this straight, he begs and pleads for an extention and now hes complaining about opt outs. If I were the Pirates, I’d cancel all negogaitions and just let him sit out. The Pirates will finish with one of the worst records anyway, with or without him. What a sneak. Greed is all these players ever think about. 100 million just isn’t enough I guess, meanwhile the people who fund your salaray, aka the fans, have to go out and get a real job for a living making peanuts compared to these players. 10 years and retire in luxury, the dream. This dude is a dog
He won’t sit out. It’s not the nfl. Reynolds team see’s all this weak ran teams giving opt outs. It’s a terrible move so hopefully the pirates hold strong. Just a negotiation. Wait and see who caves first.
I’ll be honest, I haven’t really been following this story very close. Does any know how they got to this point? Did Reynolds ask for a trade first, or did the Bucks insult one of their stars with a low ball offer first, like Bloom did with Xander?
Reynolds is desperate for a extension. Pirates offered the Murphy deal that is a solid comp but doesn’t make sense for Reynolds. His agents think a going public with a trade deal is a smart negotiating tactic and cost their client tens of millions. Pirates said we don’t care what you want. We aren’t trading you unless we get blown away with a offer.
cool. thanks
I tend to think that if the last GM was here, Reynolds would have been long gone and for lower level prospects. If nothing else, I give Cherington credit for holding firm
I’m not of the belief that the team will be better than 70-75 wins this year but with the current line up and guys like Swaggerty, Gonzalez and a number of good pitchers on the farm, there’s light at the end of the tunnel. (Where’s @MendozaLine?)
The last gm did turn 1 year of rapidly declining Cutch into Reynolds so maybe not the best example to trash him.
@cornwhisperer Other way around Huntington would have been more likely than Cherington to keep Reynolds. He held out for a king’s ransom for Vazquez, for instance.
How many pats on the back must I give you before you demand I buy you dinner, too?
If you are buying me dinner I might let you pat me somewhere else.
Bucs insulted with a low ball offer and then Reynolds said trade me.
OOPS! He forgot about that pesky arbitration business.
They can go ahead and pay him in arbitration. It will be $15 MM plus in 2024 and $20 MM plus in 2025. Then he will walk as a FA.
Do you REALLY think Nutting will pay anyone $15 million? Reynolds will get traded soon if they don’t get this extension done. .
I got to think that 106 they’ve agreed to is over 6 years, not 8. If it was 8, that would only average 13.25, and that seems awfully low.
Ya, I think I read it is in the neighborhood or 22mil a year
6 years is my guess
If it’s 6 years it’s awful for the team. 7 years it’s bad. 8 years it’s fair. I mean it’s Bob Nutting so I would go with 8. He is making 6 million this year with 2 years of arbitration and will hit free agency turning 31. Most advisors would say take the $.
His salary this season is $6.75 million as part of a very team friendly 2 year/$13.5 million deal he signed prior to the 2022 season. Projections for arbitration are $15-17 million in 2024 and $21-23 million in 2025.
Pirates are a joke!
He exceeds expectations in the next few years, he opts out and gets a bigger contract than the backloaded deal offered to him by the Bucs. He has a decrease in production before the opt-out, he stays with the team and still gets paid big bucks.
It’s great the front office increased the offer, but it makes no sense for the Bucs to do this.
Increase the $$$, remove the Opt-Out, and keep him long term. Otherwise, revisit the negotiations mid-season/in the offseason, but answer phones on trade calls w/out dropping the desired return price.
I bet you weren’t saying these things when you stole the Pirates money huh Jason?
Well, if it’s heavily backloaded, it’s worth the risk for both sides. He out performs the contract, he can take a chance and opt out and if underperforms, don’t opt out. Sounds simple.
I’m not so sure about that.. seems like a very little potential reward for a lot of extra risk.
Best case scenario is that Reynolds is a star. The Pirates get some certainty on cost and an additional year of control. Then Reynolds walks or is traded.
Worst case, he represses significantly. The contract is a dud and the Pirates are on the hook for all $106 million.. not a huge sum but a team like the Pirates would definitely feel that hit.
People on here consistently ignore the risk for teams.
He’s essentially negotiating his control years and asking for the opt out with the Pirates getting an extra year of control.
If I were the Pirates I just wouldn’t add no trade protection, because that’s a cost controlled asset when dealing with other teams.
Sounds like a reasonable deal and length.
Dock_Elvis;
Yes and No.
Forgetting the dollar amount, you’re correct – Reynolds is offering to stay on for one year after his control years. However, then he’s asking to be paid for 4 additional years if he doesn’t opt out.
Basically he’s using the Pirates as an insurance company to assure him of a large payday for 4 years in the event he gets injured and/or his career takes a Joey Gallo/Christian Yelich-like trajectory. Should he not be increasingly productive those last 4 years the Pirates are stuck with a bad contract…and small market teams cannot afford even one of those without affecting the team for years.
Right. If I’m the Pirates there’s honestly about 90% chance I’m dealing him, and probably fairly soon. In the player end that’s where I’d ask for the no-trade trigger on an extension. Protect against being locked in another situation in an Oakland or KC. 8 years is really not wonderful. Year One they probably aren’t going anywhere. Maybe year 2-3. And then you’re dealing with an aging player.
Dock_Elvis;
This is really silly.
The Pirates are not contending in 2023 or 2024.
Bryan Reynolds is not a superstar or he’d have shown indications by now. His value was when fans that don’t watch him play thought he was a quality CF that could hit. But he’s not a good ML CF let alone a quality one, and the Pirates are moving him to LF this year. Sure, he’s a fine ML hitter and could help the Yankees, Rangers or some other teams in LF. However, with his salary going up and his (and his agents) salary demands, teams are going to be cautious of dealing for him – and they aren’t going to overwhelm the Pirates with an offer.
The Pirates should have dealt him after the 2021 season. That was his max value. The Pirates aren’t contending in the next 2 years. The best thing they can do is hang onto him and if he’s having a good season in 2023 deal him in-season to a team desperate for a good-hitting LF and get some young pitching back. If not, forget buying out one year of free agency and keep him until his contract expires….if they can afford the money he gets in arbitration.
We look at the contracts the Braves signed with their youngsters (especially the 2 OF’s – Ronald Acuna and Michael Harris). Those players are far better on defense as well as offense than Reynolds, and none demanded an opt-out.
I’ve been writing for months that this is all about Reynolds trying to force a trade – very probably because he’s been on a losing team for the better part of 4 years, and they’re not going to contend in the next few. I’m not impressed with the Pirates youngsters to this point, and don’t blame him at all for wanting to get to a contending team now.
It’s a difficult spot for both him and the team. Again, I think the team should face reality and blink.
All true, Samuel. Its a spotlight PR time for all small market teams and especially Pittsburgh who gets raked over the coals for being cheap. There’s a chance that Pittsburgh wants to send a message that they’re changing…or they want people to perceive they are.
There actually are reasons to sign Reynolds behind his own ability. It’s smart if you’re trying to build a good culture. Call it New Pirates…look…we’re going to be Tampa and win here guys. Reynolds just becomes a beach head for that team concept.
Dock_Elvis;
Not beating a dead horse here, but this is the problem….
Reynolds has already been asked to be a team leader for the youngsters – something that was a bit ridiculous as he was trying to establish himself as a ML player. This year they did the right thing and brought in McCutchen, Santana, Hedges, and Rich Hill. They’re established veterans that can take that on.
I again have to add – the man has been with that team for parts of 4 seasons. Other then on Opening Days, he hasn’t played one meaningful ML game. How much can they ask of him?
If the Pirates were as advanced as the Orioles are, OK. But the Pirates are at least 2 years behind them. What’s worse is that Ben Cherington was hired a year before Mike Elias was with the O’s (both had to build a modern organizational infrastructure from nothing).
Did you watch the Orioles play in 2022? All their players hustle for the manager. They’ve been trained to play smart, fundamental baseball (and they have fun doing it). The Pirates youngsters don’t remotely perform like that.
Look, Cedrick Mullians was the sort of guy with the O’s you want Reynolds to be. But Mountcastle, Hays, Santander and others came up right behind him. Reynolds has Hayes and that’s it. Some players just want to do their job and be a part of a team. But there’s something more important here….
What you’re saying about the situation with Pirates baseball is true. And it’s gone on for decades with a few blips here and there. Dumping that on one or two young players trying to establish themselves is unfair. Mike Elias knew about these considerations this going in as he went about changing a culture. He didn’t put any pressure on one or two players – if anything he built a support system from them to prosper in. Sorry, but I’m not impressed with Ben Cherington and Derek Shelton. That ML team should be much further along than they are.
In particular McCutchen and Santana might be able to help turn the Pirates situation around. But it should have come from the top years ago.
2024 is the realistic goal. Most of the better prospects will be making appearances this season if healthy. even if some don’t pan out, they’re in decent shape. IMO the pitching is the key.. if it doesn’t work this year then they’ll need to put “big money” into it to be a contender just for a wild card in 2024.
Samuel, yep..I did see the Orioles play once im Seattle last year. They had a good vibe. Reminded me of the vibe Felipe Alou got from those Expos teams. They were just missing pieces and development. But they performed very well.
I’m not going to be impressed with Pittsburgh until I see a genuine effort to build a team. If you’re as bad as they have been for as long as they’ve been bad….you should ACCIDENTALLY be getting better by having tonnage of Top 1st round picks.
As far as pressure. I’m not sure it’d be pressure on any player that was worth it. They’d be seeking to lead. And somehow…some way…Reynolds is vet presence. But I don’t my thoughts on that to seem TOO loud. It’s just a minor thing.
The real probable truth is that real stars will typically not negotiate and go to their walk seasons and test free agency. Reynolds is simply above avg. He’d be a nice little piece on a contender. Any better player and we’re probably not having this extension discussion. And I think it speaks a LOT about the Pirates state up to now that there’s so much talk around a player that’s OK…but not astounding. This would be mid level news with moat organizations.
What’s more intriguing is how they approach O’Neil and their other emerging prospects.
Players with opt-outs are tricky to trade. Giancarlo Stanton for instance.
I’m not sure what team would want 8 years on Reynolds. From the player perspective it’s understandable how they want a no-trade triggered if dealt, or atleast a partial no trade. Sign an essential 8 year deal with Pittsburgh then somehow get sent to another bad situation.
It’s kind of curious. Reynolds wouldn’t have been the player to start extensions I wouldn’t think. There’s been a lot of talk for a couple years that Pittsburgh should have already dealt him.
That’s what led me to believe before any figures were ever out that his demands really weren’t rhat astronomical. And fact is with many non-pittsburgh situations there would have been an extension already with a lot less media and fan fanfare.
But dealing with Reynolds sends a message.
8 106. Man am I genius. Everyone should go read the Reynolds articles from the last few months and either apologize or give me a pat on the back. I hope you are all grateful I bless your lil baseball site with my presence.
Opt out after 2027 or even better and more likely 2028 and call it a day. Congratulations Pirate Fans.
How many pats on the back must I give before you demand I buy you dinner, too?
I dunno but I am willing to find out.
Reynolds is looking forward to the contract so he can coast for several years. Buyer beware.
I don’t see him as the coasting type. But he definitely didn’t have any desire to bet on himself the next 3 years.
I’m suspicious of players who want an extension with such insistence – it’s like they know the future performance won’t be as strong. It’s like that favorite protein drink is no longer available.
I can believe that. Just that it will be because of age and declining skill not lack of effort.
Some people really don’t want to be concerned about money, and they want the security. 108M is life changing money. It’s not the megastar deal. But it’s a check box off in life. Perhaps it seems odd a player would WANT to stay on Pittsburgh at all.
In some ways Reynolds was the right player to call the Pirates bluff. He’s not a star, and they can’t really say they couldn’t afford him.
The legit question is whether he falls on their timeline with their prospects.
But cool…send a message to your long-suffering fans that atleast you’re not packing another player out. But I’d say the odds are very decent he still gets dealt. I’d for sure deal him for MLB ready talent a little more in line with where the organization is at.
There’s also a chance Pittsburgh has belief they’re ahead of schedule. I won’t doubt for a second they outplay their 2023 projections. They have some pieces.
When they say “it’s not about the money”…it’s always…about the money..
So you are saying that the Pirates will win more than 65-66 games?
I put a large endorsement on them winning more than 64 and a half.
If he don’t act soon, Ryan Reynolds will be Deadpool to ye Pirate faithful. Chum as it were. Yaaarr!
If this is really only 1 extra year, I don’t see the upside for the Pirates. Just leave it as is, let arbitration dictate his value, and trade in a couple years (or sooner if they get a good offer).
With the new contract, if he is good, he walks. If he isn’t, Bucks holding the water.
Just tell him to go play and see you next off season at the hearing.
Just negotiating. They likely settle on a later opt out or something else beneficial to player.
Might not be the message to send the players as prospects arrive. Not if you’re wanting to create a relationship atmosphere where longterm extensions are part of your economic game plan with young stars. At SOME point to be successful Pittsburgh will have to utilize that model as efficiently as other successful small market clubs do.
Every day he plays in a Pirates uniform, the lower his trade value becomes regardless of his performance. He is closer to FA in 4 months than he is today so he is worth less. At the end of the season cut that some more. Next season’s trade deadline? Even more.
True. But teams didn’t sound willing to pay for his value so only think you are doing is taking injury performance risk.
Odds say he is extended. You don’t get this close and not close the deal. Fight it out for either a 2027 or 2028 opt out. 2028 is fair but could go 27 29.
Teams were not willing to pay what the Pirates were asking for meaning his value is already less than the Pirates think it is.
I don’t have the information to know if that is true or not.
Yes you do. Reynolds is still playing for the Pirates. If other teams were willing to pay what the Pirates wanted he would be playing elsewhere.
Nope not enough information
It is for anyone with even a smidgen of common sense. Too much Jamaican ganja for you it seems like
And at the same time, the Pirates are a better team because of his skills. And therein lies the tradeoff. Which is more valuable to the club – his skills or his marketability?
Which is more important to the Pirates. Only losing 95 games with him or losing 100 without him?
Yeah, giving him an opt-out after 2026 would defeat the purpose of an extension from the Pirates’ point of view. They already control hum through 2025 with no extension.
They don’t control how much he will cost in arbitration. Don’t let the $6.75 million he is being paid for 2023 on his current team friendly 2 year deal fool you into thinking he will be cheap going forward. 2024 is being projected at $15-17 million. 2025 at $21-23 million. If his 2023 production is somewhere between 2021 and 2022, you should bet on the higher number. If its only as good as 2022, those lower numbers are still huge for Nutting
A 150% raise on his 2023 salary? Not sure he gets there. Either way, I don’t see a player who is still in arb as being a burden to any team. Even at $23m he’s still worth more than what you’d get if you spent that in free agency. If my last statement were not true he would be non-tendered.
Its not based on his current salary, its based on his performance compared to other players in the same arbitration class, meaning 1st year, 2nd year, etc…
This site’s algorithm has him earning $15-17 million in arbitration next season and $21-23 million the following season. He be a FA after 2025 and if he continues to perform at his average the last 3 full seasons, he will get much more than $21-23 million AAV on his next deal.
They most certainly take a player’s current salary into account in arbitration. It’s why you often see player and team squabble over seemingly small amounts. But I truly don’t care what a player makes in arb because 1. It’s a one year deal and 2. If he isn’t worth that you can non-tender him. Not that the Pirates would do that with Reynolds but it is an option.
They would if he had not signed a multi-year deal that included an arbitration season.
Since he did, they will take into account a few of the players stats and then compare those to other players in his arbitration class. Go read the CBA as to how arbitration is decided.
That is why all the projections for his arbitration case in the 2023-2024 offseason put it at $15-17 million. That then puts him at $20+ million for 2025.
If not from Reynolds, where are the Pirates getting his production in 2023-25 for less money?
What are we doing talking about this? The deadline was yesterday. Deals simply can’t happen after a deadline.
So Reynolds was saying if Nutting continues to Nutting and you still suck in 2025, I want the ability to get the F out of here?
Paraphrasing, but accurate
I took it as if I am still good I want the ability to make even more $. Awful ran teams like San Diego give out these options so why can’t you? He probably gets a opt out but in 2027 2028 for years the Pirates never wanted in the first place.
Then he won’t actually opt out and asking for the opt-out at all would be pointless.
Awful run teams don’t make the playoffs two out of 3 years.
Sure they do. Just out spend other teams.
Padres are profitable and winning. That is not “awful ran”. What is awful is your take.
Giving players opt outs that greatly benefit the player. That Machado opt out was costly. Clevinger trade. Nola trade. Bogaerts signing. Thankfully other free agents turned down what would have been bad deals.
Not picking on SD. They are just an example of what not to do. If PIT gives Reynolds a 2025 26 opt out I will call it a awful contract.
After 5 seasons it cost the Padres how much? $1 million per season? Costly? GTFOH.
Having one home playoff game is worth half of Machado’s annual salary. 2 pay it completely. Win a WS and you can pay for two of Pittsburgh’s entire 2023 payroll with some millions left over just from the post season money alone.
The Padres are showing that what they are doing is PROFITABLE. Their CEO came out before this season started and publicly said that they did not lose money last season and won’t in 2023. That says volumes about how well their approach is working.
If Pittsburgh doesn’t give Reynolds an opt out he wont extend there and will be playing for someone else in 2026. The Pirates will continue to do what they do. Pad Nutting’s wallet and lose 90-100 games. 4 winning seasons in 30 years says it all.
I don’t blame Reynolds one bit. Would you want to sign a deal for far below market value and then continue to play for a losing team in front of 15k fans a game or play on a winning team in front of 40k a game? What he is offering the Pirates by agreeing to take an under market contract is the opportunity for the team to go out and sign other FA to help them WIN. If they show over the next 3 seasons that they won’t do that, then he should be able to get the F out of Dodge.
The track record of opt-out clauses say they eliminate all the upside in the contract for the team while eliminating none of the downside. People will say that he will opt in if the team is competing but besides Nolan Arenado, I can’t think of one player who actually did that. And it hasn’t been for lack of opportunity.
From what we’ve seen from Reynolds side of the negotiations, its likely the opt-out is for the purpose of cashing in for 25M a year, if he has 4 very good years. It MAY also be that he wants Pirates to compete, but he’s not content with a mere 13.25M a year
“Reynolds is willing to backload the deal so that triggering his opt-out means walking away from the biggest salaries.”
When a player opts out of their contract, is it immediately torn up with no further financial obligation?
Let’s make this official and get a few more ticket sales before the home opener.
Lol..I’ve sat at PNC with a legit crowd you could manually count with him absolutely raking…Bryan Reynolds for sure probably makes his family excited when he comes to bat. But there were precious few in Pittsburgh who have taken much notice. Absolutely sad because Pittsburgh is an amazing baseball town when they get any reason to show up. And that park is outstanding. Put a winner in there.
Pirate fans only seem to come out when team is playoff contender. Reynolds extension might give a few hope. I predict increased attendance this year. Definitely not as high or close to 2013 to 2016 numbers.
I’ll be at the home opener, as always. I hope you go, too. The Pirates need as many passionate fans as possible. Saw two weeks of spring training this year in Bradenton, instead of just one. I live over 300 miles from Pittsburgh and still get to 8-10 games per year. I can’t understand why more local folks don’t get out to the ballpark. It’s such a great park. I am mid 60’s and retired, so that helps.
Pittsburgh has truly amazing baseball fans. They’re around there. They just don’t have the attendance padding of trendy/tourists that a team like the Cubs gets. I’ve been there 4 different times over the years and every time it’s great fans.
I’m of the belief that most teams have about the same % of solid baseball fans…it’s just that some teams gave grossly larger casual followings.
As far as coming out for a contender. I don’t blame fans for not showing up. A solid fan might show their feelings by NOT showing up for garbage.
Absolutely gorgeous ballpark. Love attending games there. What is sad is showing up on game day and being able to buy a ticket behind home plate in the lower bowl. Right now you can get a seat for the home opener in section 12 just a couple rows from the field. That is just sad.
Nutting is more concerned with padding his wallet than fielding a team that would draw large numbers of fans. He is receiving as much in revenue sharing as he is spending on payroll and is pocketing million.. All Pirates fans should be incredibly angry at that man and his insatiable greed.
mlb.tickets.com/?agency=MLB_MPV&orgid=7&…
Its insane that really, really good seats just 12 rows back from the field behind the dugout are still available for the Pirates home opener. Padres sold out the day single game tickets went on sale.
I watched the Oakland opener. That place was all kinds of empty…even not counting the football seats and upper deck. Padres are living the competitive demand. Lose and they’ll go back go solid crowds but not sell outs.
But those crazy loud Oakland fans showed up. In the OF. Love it.
@ Dream GM – Are you going?
Nope. Only a Pirate fan because I live in the Caribbean, don’t pay for music, and just about everyone slept and is yet again sleeping on this team. Great ballpark. Anyone within 1000 miles should spend 3 nights in Pittsburgh any time their team plays the Pirates.
As others have mentioned, this sounds like BS by Reynolds. If you are going to sign with the Pirates, or several other small revenue teams, you have to accept that you are never going to be favored for a WSC.