The Cardinals have made no secret of their need to add starting pitching. It’s self-evident, as a rotation that ranks 23rd with a 4.73 ERA has been a key factor in the Cards’ disappointing season. Deadline deals shipped out impending free agents Jordan Montgomery and Jack Flaherty, while Adam Wainwright is retiring at year’s end.
With three members of their anticipated starting five either already or soon to be out the door, St. Louis is gearing up to add multiple replacements. President of baseball operations John Mozeliak said yesterday the club anticipated bringing in three starting pitchers next winter (relayed by John Denton of MLB.com).
It’s not the first time Mozeliak has expressed that goal. The baseball ops leader indicated a desire for a trio of starters last month. At the time, he left open the possibility of accomplishing some of that at the trade deadline.
The Cards indeed followed through on their goal of adding upper minors pitching. Lefty Drew Rom, who has spent the entire season in Triple-A, came back from Baltimore in the Flaherty deal. Double-A righty Tekoah Roby was arguably the most talented prospect the Cards received in the swap that sent Montgomery and Chris Stratton to Texas. Righties Adam Kloffenstein and Sem Robberse — each of whom was acquired from the Blue Jays for Jordan Hicks — were assigned to Triple-A.
Since none of those hurlers have yet made their MLB debuts, it seems the Cards aren’t penciling any of them into next year’s starting five. Mozeliak conceded the front office overestimated their rotation depth coming into this season and it has clearly since been a priority to bolster the upper levels of the minors.
The only pitcher who looks assured of an Opening Day rotation job is Miles Mikolas. The right-hander is having another solid season, pitching to a 4.27 ERA over 26 starts. He’s not overpowering, but he’s an elite strike-thrower and has been a source of mid-rotation innings for five seasons in St. Louis.
Steven Matz looked to have turned a corner after a brief bullpen demotion. Since returning to the rotation, the southpaw worked to a 1.86 ERA while fanning over a quarter of opponents with an excellent 4.6% walk rate over seven starts. It had been Matz’s best stretch as a Cardinal — until he was diagnosed with a lat strain that could end his season. The recent strong run probably gives Matz an inside track on a rotation spot next spring, though it’s a small enough sample his hold on a job could be tenuous.
Since the deadline, St. Louis has given rotation looks to Matthew Liberatore and Dakota Hudson. Liberatore, a former top prospect, had a strong season in Triple-A but hasn’t carried it over against big league hitters. Over 45 2/3 MLB frames this year, he carries a 5.72 ERA with a well below-average 14.4% strikeout rate. Still just 23 with another minor league option remaining, Liberatore isn’t in danger of losing his roster spot. He’ll get another eight or nine starts down the stretch but hasn’t solidified his hold on a ’24 rotation job.
Hudson isn’t a lock to be on next year’s roster. The sinkerballer is playing this season on a $2.65MM arbitration salary. He’d be due a modest raise on that amount if St. Louis tenders him a contract. Hudson has a 4.31 ERA in 31 1/3 MLB innings, starting three of nine appearances. He worked out of the rotation with Triple-A Memphis, posting a 6.00 ERA with a modest 17.3% strikeout percentage.
Matz’s injury cleared a rotation job for former first-round selection Zack Thompson. The 25-year-old lefty has worked almost exclusively in relief at the big league level. His numbers in that capacity — a 2.59 ERA, 24.9% strikeout rate, 51.3% grounder percentage through 59 2/3 career innings — are impressive. Yet Thompson struggled mightily when the Cards optioned him to work out of the Triple-A rotation. Over 34 1/3 frames with Memphis, he was tagged for an 8.65 ERA while struggling to find the strike zone.
Between Liberatore, Thompson and a few upper minors arms — Rom and Connor Thomas could have the upper hand, since they’re already on the 40-man roster — St. Louis has a number of controllable pitchers they can evaluate over the next seven weeks. It’s hard to envision anyone in that group staking a firm claim to a season-opening rotation spot, though they can at least put themselves in line for depth work that’ll inevitably arise throughout the course of the year.
Once the offseason arrives, Mozeliak and his staff will set about identifying external targets. The upcoming free agent class is pitching-heavy. Beyond Shohei Ohtani, some names on the market include Blake Snell, NPB star Yoshinobu Yamamoto, Montgomery, Aaron Nola, Julio Urías, Lucas Giolito, likely Eduardo Rodriguez and Seth Lugo (who each seem set to decline player options on their deals), and Michael Lorenzen. Veterans like Marcus Stroman (who also has a player option), James Paxton and Kenta Maeda could be limited to shorter-term contracts based on their age/injury histories but are pitching well this season.
St. Louis has never topped $80MM on a free agent deal for a pitcher. It wouldn’t be a surprise if the Cards set a new high-water mark in that regard next winter. Roster Resource calculates their 2024 payroll commitments around $112MM, well below this year’s Opening Day figure that landed in the $177MM range. Arbitration raises for Tyler O’Neill, Tommy Edman, Ryan Helsley and Dylan Carlson would add another $15-20MM to that projected ledger, but that leaves a fair bit of flexibility for attacking free agency.
That’s before considering the possibility of trades to potentially clear some payroll room while bringing back rotation help. Helsley, Giovanny Gallegos and Carlson were all floated in rumors this summer. St. Louis ended up holding virtually everyone who was controllable beyond this season but could certainly reopen trade talks on those players over the winter. The outfield surplus that fueled speculation about a Carlson deal still hasn’t been resolved. He seems likely to be a popular subject of trade attention yet again.
They’ll sign Stroman and Paxton and trade for Marco Gonzalez
They go route, they’re going to need more. Gonzales is a 4-5 starter post-pandemic. Would be fun to see Stroman and Contreras be financial burdens on rival Cards.
It’ll be funny when he signs and says how he always dreamed of playing for the Cards while trashing the Cubs
Sad, to admit you need 3 starters means you have no pitching staff. Considering the injury rate you’ll need 3 starters. + 2 backups…Good luck with that…
@RayKingsThickThighs
He has a player option and going to make $21M. Given how much he’s fallen off a cliff from the first half, he’s got to pitch better than what he has shown for that kind of money. Given his age of 32, if I were the Cards, I wouldn’t be offering him a long-term contract with big money.
Moe, Larry and myself, are available…That makes 3 starters, and we have Shemp in relief…
The Stl Stooges…
Micheal Wacha, Lance Lynn, and Luke Weaver? What would it take to pry Gomber away from Colorado? How about Alcantara and Gallen… demote John Mozeliak to AAA Memphis and promote Jeff Luhnow? Why didn’t Mike Judge think of that? To busy beavising his butthead?
Wacha isn’t a FA yet. padres hold options and need SP. if he stays healthy and continues to pitch as he has, options may / should get exercised or at least negotiated for an extension.
Why would anyone want Lynn after he sets the all-time record for home runs allowed? Winning with perhaps the third best team in BB is a lot easier – even with the home runs- than with a team with a skinflint owner that doesn’t mind watching his team sink to the bottom four in the game.
Curly… I’d pay you to disappear into oblivion forever
Luhnow will never be in mlb again. He has a soccer team he’s moved on
Shut your mouth and show me the money dweeb
And Paxton will have them a decent April before being shut down for the year.
To add insult to injury somehow all on 4 year 52 million dollar deals to sit injured all year and we use the minors depth like we should have? What happened to “the Cardinals way” died with Oscar Tavares?
Somehow, still feel like that last sentence is too soon. 🙁
I hear Jordan Montgomery and Jack Flaherty will be available!
Wouldn’t rule out Monty coming back. He’s the kind of solid #2 the Cards need.
I thought the Cardinals had a great rotation going into 2023 so how would adding more SPs fix the problem. Instead, they should focus on having only bullpen guys pitching an inning or two here and there. Dump the expensive starters that only go 4 innings over 30 games of the season, giving you 8Ks and giving up 4 runs but has a blazing 110mph fastball. Modern day starting pitching is overrated. Either start building proper starting pitchers in the minors, as we once had or stop developing them at all. You want to pay someone $50M/year to pitch 30 games of 4 innings? Haha!
50 million a year to pitch 4 innings while getting shelled? Sign me up I think I can do that!
@Braves_saints_celts
You’d probably do pretty good as Bullpen guy. Look at how some of the position players do when they’re pitching in those blowouts.
Danny Mendick of the Mets might be in line ahead of you. The position player has pitched two innings for the Mets this season and has an ERA of 36.00.
We can all agree that mendick and myself are probably both behind the second coming of ohtani, Nicky Lopez!
Somehow, I can envision you shaking your fist at the clouds while making that statement.
No I was just joking around based on his outstanding first start with braves offensively and the fact he tossed a scoreless inning to end the game in mop up duty. I’m glad to have Nicky as a super utility option for the braves. Hopefully the only time we see him pitch again is exactly like he did the previous time, when the braves are blowing a team out of the water.the only thing I’m shaking my fist in the air for is the fact that I want the braves to get ohtani and probably won’t, but that’s probably almost every single fan base in the majors.
I wasn’t responding to you, I was responding to Old York.
These comment threads can be confusing, because we get notices suggesting someone is responding to us directly, when in fact the comments are often in response to another comment in a thread.
So, we can shake our fists at the notifications.
The Cards did have a good team but they have a divisive Manager who can’t put the pieces together.
Tony?
Michel Grove future Cardinal
For? TON?
They wants starters, not relievers
There may not be that many gpod starters out there to begin with. Of the top of my head, Nola, Urias, Montgomery, Flaherty (meh), Stroman, Eduardo, Giolito, and Snell are out there if Eduardo opts out to fulfill his greed. If you count Martin Perez as a starter (somehow), I guess he counts as a “starter,” but good luck with that…
I dunno, that’s a fairly good SP market in these days.
I guess the options have improved as the season has gone on. Ohtani is also a starter who I forgot. It was Ohtani, Urias, Nola, and potentially Giolito. With Snell and Montgomery as good backups, but it was never the deGrom/Verlander/Rodon/Bassitt/Eovaldi/Taillon/
Heaney/Kluber/Anderson/Stripling market.
You’re right..it’s younger and less top heavy……
Yeah i feel like this is the strongest SP FA class in a while looking at age and quality
Why is Eduardo the only one who is going to “fulfill his greed?” They will all be leaving for greener pockets.
“If Eduardo opts out to fulfill his greed”
Just wondering what possesses you to type that?
& why doesn’t Stroman fulfill his greed also by opting out?
Eduardo Rodriguez had familiy issues as recently as last season and now wants us to think “family reasons” nade him reject the Dodgers instead of trying to blackmail his team into paying him a huge ransom to waive his no trade clause. I’d be fine if he were actually honest about it. It is annoying when guys like him and Scherzer (for a while) make all these demands and hold fans hostage. A player is not bigger than the sport. Stroman got lit up his last few starts and is injured, so it isn’t certain he will opt out.
What do you mean “blackmail his team into paying him a huge ransom to waive his no trade clause”? I don’t think players can’t just be like “Ok, I’ll waive it, but you have to pay me $10 million to do so”, if that’s what you mean.
That is what was reported about players requiring financial compensation to waive it. Are you sure they can’t do this?
Players often ask for financial inducements to waive clauses. It’s why they put the clause there in the first place, to gain them leverage. It’s fairly common for a player to ask a receiving trade partner to pick up next yrs option, in return for waiving his right to block a deal.
“Ok, I’ll waive it, but you have to pay me $10 million to do so”,
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I’m pretty sure you can do so. I don’t remember the exact quote, and maybe it just translated poorly, but it sounded like they tried, but they just couldn’t work it out with LAD.
If you are not looking for financial inducements, what else is there to work out?
That’s why I said I don’t think. I wasn’t sure. Idk, E-Rod has never seemed the like the type of player who would demand outrageous money. He truly did have family issues last year. Who’s to say that said issues aren’t fully resolved? Sometimes things like that, it takes more than just a year to fully recover or solve.
deGrom – you are out of your ever loving mind dude.
This isn’t fantasy league. This is real life. Get a grip.
What are you talking about?
“Holds fans hostage” “blackmails fans”
Just for starters but pretty much everything you said that involves a man making a personal financial choice for his and his family’s benefit and you sitting on your couch criticizing him and challenging his right to operate within his contractual rights for his own benefit.
Believe it or not, sometimes there are actually players for, whatever reason, loathe the team who wants to trade for them. Of course most players’ number one interest is money, but beyond that, do you not think there are a few players who absolutely hate particular teams and would never play for that team regardless of any financial incentives? I’m not saying this is or is not the case for E-Rod and LAD (though I would think more highly of him if it was), but it’s certainly something to consider.
Stwawk – I’d say include weather, wife’s preference, closeness to family and many other factors for players decisions. They are human after all. I’ve said for years, theoretically, if I were offered “a sh—t load of money” to play for a team I didn’t want to play for, that I would gladly take “a sh—t load less 10%” to play for a team / location / coach/ that I preferred.
Some of these guys are all about setting a bar or satisfy a massive ego.
Take Ohtani for my example: Dodgers offer 500 mil but I want to play for Giants and they “only” offer 475 mil.
Really, I’m going where I want because that amount doesn’t mean crap when you are dead and you can’t even spend the 475 in your lifetime!
In the end though, I don’t mean to criticize a players reasons (unlike deGrom) because they are HIS reasons and it’s his life.
He truly did have family issues last year.
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Had he said that, I’d be 100% support. But then, the answer should’ve been “family” not that they were trying to work something out.
I’d also bet that he opts out this off-season. I’d love to hear “my family loves it here”, but it just doesn’t feel like it.
Pretty much every comment degrom posts showcases how this guy busted out of the loony bin
Lol nope this doesn’t happen often and isn’t going to be tolerated as well. Not like other central teams
Joe – what difference does it make to you? You want people in your life challenging your right to make your decisions about life?
It makes no difference to me.
But the conversation was about whether he invoked his no-trade clause because he wanted more money, or because of family reasons.
No one ever questioned his contractual right to refuse the trade.
Joe – it’s also a contractual right to opt out – not just refuse a trade.
I was specifically saying that in regards to the opt out.
What a ridiculous take. News flash buddy, the team gave him a no trade clause. Every team should expect every player to not waive their no trade if you give them a no trade.
He earned the no trade and it’s within his rights to use that as a negotiating tactic. He he stupid not to use that as a negotiation tactic. Tigers have to give him a no trade to play for that garbage team for a couple years.
Yes, he has had family issues, and yes, the LAD were on his NO TRADE LIST. This was entirely on HARRIS. What inside info have you received in a dream? Don’t let the facts get in the way.
Probably not demand $$$ outright
But they probably can demand a team amend a contract to waive a no trade clause.
I was specifically saying that in regards to the opt out.
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Lo siente. I missed that one.
But again, back to what I said earlier, I’d love to hear him say “I’m staying with the Tigers because my family loves it here.”. But what I expect is that he will take more money and then say “my family always wanted to live in Cleveland (or whatever). Hopefully I am wrong.
He earned the no trade and it’s within his rights to use that as a negotiating tactic.
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And exactly no one said otherwise. The issue that was being discussed is whether his refusal was family-based or $$$-based.
He asked for $20M to waive his limited trade.
Rodriguez had every right to use his NTC however he saw fit, and I have zero problem with it. I believe he didn’t want to be that far from his family. Would he have waived it for more money? I don’t know, maybe? None of us -you included- know what his family situation is though. Maybe the extra money would’ve allowed him to bring them out there with him? You’re tossing out terms like “blackmailing his team” and “holding fans hostage”, which are completely unwarranted.
Maybe the extra money would’ve allowed him to bring them out there with him?
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That’s exactly my issue.
Had he said “My family loves Detroit and we aren’t moving”, that’s great-family first.
But he has already made $53M, and has another $49M guaranteed. Does he really need extra money to rent out a house for another 3 months? I could understand asking for another $300K to pay the rent, but I doubt that was the sticking issue.
Joe – I think your difficulty is that you keep inserting financial reasons into this when he said it was family reasons.
It isn’t about money for rent – it’s the place. They are happy there and don’t want to be in LA.
It’s hard for some people to understand when – like you pointed out- money is not the reason because he has made so much, that it isn’t about the money. When it isn’t about the money then more money isn’t the solution.
Stop and think – he has 10 teams on a no trade clause. He selected 10 for non monetary reasons – his personal reasons – and money isn’t the answer to make him change his mind.
It is his right but, it is about the money. His family is in Florida, nowhere near Michigan. He asked for 20M from DET to waive his no trade as well as an extension from LAD. He will opt out. It’s not a strong free agent class so he will get top billing. Owners often compete for the off-season championship leaving them with rubble in the aftermath.
Hey, Farhan, you see that? That’s what you do when you have glaring holes. You pay talented people to fix the problem. All good though, Strippling and Manea will be opting in for sure. I guess it doesn’t really matter if you can’t hit at all and Wilmer Flores is your best player.
“Pay talented people to fix”…I’ve ripped Farhan as much as anybody, but at least he didn’t sign you up for 5+ years of Carlos Rodon, Carlos Correa or Jacob Degrom. Be careful what you ask for.
I’d prefer to try and fail than to not try at all.
And some people prefer to to fail. One of pet peeves is when someone does something stupid, they rationalize it by saying “at least they tried”.
To be fair, they did fail to land Correa and Judge.
You sure know how to make them all feel better, Darkside!
Considering the respective records, I don’t think Farhan wants to taking after the Cardinals right now
He is certainly trying to get down to their level in the standings. And it’s working. Guarantee that they don’t finish above 500. Didn’t do anything besides getting AJ Pollock at the deadline? That’s straight malpractice for a guy in charge of a team that is supposedly trying to win.
How dumb did you sound a couple years ago when the giants won over a 100 games.
It amazes me how ignorant fans are. I’d prefer they sign a ridiculously overpriced free agent and fail then nothing, dumb take. Zero idea on how to build a sustainable winner. Just shut up and cheer when everyone else is cheering you aren’t smart enough to know how to be a fan. Booohoo the Ivy League gm of my favourite team keeps doing the opposite thing as I want and he keeps winning, more crying making me look and sound dumb.
And what if they do finish about .500? What are you putting up as a guarantee?
Guarantee that they don’t finish above 500.
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Fish.
You could always trade Dylan Carlson(waste management) or Branden Donovan(damaged goods) for a teams top 1-5 prospects, according to the bible book of little stevie… lmao
Donovan had a fairly minor arm surgery to fix a tendon strain, it wasn’t even a tear. Not sure how that translates to “damaged goods”, he’s not even a pitcher.
You don’t have surgery to fix strains.
He had a flexor strain repaired. Don’t know what to tell you, that’s quoted from about six different national media sources.
If it was a tear, I don’t think he would have been able to play through it
I heard the Yankees wanted to trade Deivi Garcia for Dylan Carlson. oh, yeah about that…..
@Bsrowman9- yeah that sounds about worth it for Carlson, he’s nothing spectacular(Carlson) either.
Paxton looks like the most generic cardinal
They will have a very large group to try to sign from. The FA starting pitching pool has 9-10 good starters headlined by Ohtani, Snell, Urias, and Yamamoto out of Japan. Another 5-6 that are middle of the rotation starters.
Not sure who will be available on the trade market, but there are always a few good starters moved.
Will be interesting to see what happens since all of the top spending teams will also be looking for starting pitching including the Mets, Yankees, Dodgers, Phillies, and Padres.
I’d have no interest in any of them except Yamamoto. They all look like injuries waiting to happen.
“They all look like injuries waiting to happen.”
Yep, they’re pitchers.
True dat, but these guys look riskier than most, imho.
Not quite sure the Yankees will be in the SP market. They already have four starters next year and a couple of young arms ready. Some may go in a trade for OF so we’ll see.
Or they can sign Cody Bellinger if he becomes a free agent, probably makes sense to see what the Yanks could get for Gleyber at this point, considering they don’t want to re-sign him which makes zero sense not to. Since Sevvy is likely leaving, they could try to get Montas cheaply, because he has given them nothing after the trade from Oakland. Glad to see Schmidty pitching better, even though he got lit up in Atlanta the other night. Not expecting much from German next season, if he even comes back.
Gleyber depends on whether they think Peraza is ready for 2B. He’s doing good in AAA so I expect a Sept. call-up for him.
That’s the lst mistake truthfully. Peraza needs to play shortstop, and Volpe needs to play 2nd. Volpe could of told you that himself, he’s already said publicly that Peraza is the better shortstop defensively amongst them. If Gleyber isn’t resigned this off-season for the next 6, 7, or 8 years, he should definitely be traded. Volpe and Peraza are all ready for the majors.
Volpe’s D is slightly above average this year. He’s among the league leaders in converting balls he can reach into outs. He’s also been an above-average hitter since mid-June. No reason to switch Volpe now as he continues to get better at SS. If Peraza can stick in the big leagues, they can switch positions a few years down the road.
Gleyber should be a lock to get traded.. How much more do they need to see from Peraza?
When the brass finally admits that the season is a wash. They’re not there yet even at a sub .500 record bc they want to fill stadium seats. Peraza will need regular MLB reps and we’ll probably see that in Sept.
Cardinals can afford to sign at least two decent starters this offseason, and maybe make a trade for one starter. They have money coming off the books, time to spend some money.
Miles matz Hudson and liberties are 24 need a one to put in front ofvthem
I’d say Snell, but he has wild lapses of ineffectiveness throughout the season. But when he’s on, he’s an ace-level starter.
I agree, I can’t see them signing more than 2 guys of any talent. They’ll go the trade route for at least one starter, maybe 2.
Doubt it. Lots of high spending teams gonna be in that market. Basically all of them.
On the bright side they’ll have Arenado and the same win loss record again missing the playoffs once more
If the Tigers and Chris Fetter have truly helped Michael Lorenzen to unlock himself from the shackles of his mind, then there you go Cardinals. I see him toeing your slab.
2 trades
Edman and Herrera for Max Meyer and Trevor Rogers
Hudson for Glasnow
I don’t think the Rays want to pay Glasnow 25 million next year they would rather spend that money elsewhere.
I like the first one but Hudson for Glasnow ain’t happening
Glasnow is making 25 million in 2024.
Do you think he’s actually worth that?
I’m just saying that they would milk more players out of him if they were truly filling salary
I simply don’t believe that the Rays want to pay that salary. And other teams won’t want to either. Hudson gives them a back end starter and they can use the savings from Glasnow to go buy the next Eflin.
There’s no shot Dakota Hudson for Glasnow is happening at all in anyones widlest wet dream. It’s just not. They’d ask for a lower level guy with potential.
Not a guy who should be in AAA.
Hudson is 4-0. He’s nothing special but he’s a big leaguer.
Do you think Glasnow is worth 25 million for 1 season?
A health Glasnow is 100% worth $25M
Lol 4-0
One impressive relief win against the Nats and a start against the A’s…. Really reaching when you use a win-loss record to defend a bad opinion.
The rays will get a prospect for Glasnow. They may or may not like Hudson but he’d certainly only be a piece if so. They won’t have any problems moving his salary.
You guys got multiple prospects back for half a season of Flaherty and Monty. It’ll be a package for Glasnow too. A top starter on a 1 year deal has value. Most teams can fit that salary in for a year.
what is this “health(y) Glasnow” you speak of?
And when has Glasnow been healthy???
This isn’t some weird hypothetical question I am talking in real life in 2024 do you think Glasnow is worth 25 million?
If he is it’s barely.
You think Glasnow is worth 25 million in 2024?
The Orioles don’t spend money but if they did you think that’s how they would spend it???
Yeah the guy is making a strawman argument here. Glasnow has pretty much never been healthy.
For one year of Glasnow, sure.
Tougher for Middle market teams to fit that kind of salary in for 6-7 years. But for 1 season—absolutely. It’s more advantageous for the luxury tax payers also. His tax hit is only $15MM. That certainly adds value. Rays will have plenty of interest and I expect he’s elsewhere next season.
It’ll be for more than a year of a much inferior rental pitcher like Hudson. Won’t be a real haul considering it’s only a year but def more than that:
Rodon got less money for 1 year coming off a better season.
The free agent market is loaded with good starters. Why would someone choose Glasnow over all the other guys available?
Look at Eflin. Better than Glasnow half the price in 2024.
None of those FA’s will sign for a year. Eflin pitched better in TB not before he was signed. Good orgs will get more out of guys.
The free agent market is not loaded starting pitchers, that are anything more than 4th or 5th starters. Those don’t help the Cardinals. The loaded class is 2025.
My point about Eflin was pretty simple. Tampa is a good organization and can get better performance for less money.
Rodon signed for a year recently.
There are all kinds of starters available this offseason. But I don’t think the Cardinals want to lose a draft pick and they need someone who at least on a good day could be considered an ace.
I would rather trade for Bieber than Glasnow because Bieber will cost half the salary but I like Glasnows potential.
Look at Eflin. Better than Glasnow half the price in 2024.
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I’d bet serious money that Glasnow has a higher bWAR in 2024.
Good luck with that bet
I’m right there with you, Joe. Eflin’s good but this is his ceiling. A pitcher w/ Glasnow’s upside is going to cost you over $100MM.
At 1 year—he’ll have plenty of suitors. Wouldn’t surprise me to see the Dodgers be in on him.
The Dodgers have Buehler and May coming back. Probably going to bring Urias and Kershaw back. They don’t need Glasnow.
The fact that the Rays signed Eflin and got him to perform this well is EXACTLY why they will want out of the Glasnow contract. That and it’s 25 million dollars and Glasnow isn’t worth that much.
Zaidi probably looking for more OPENERS so he Giants won’t be competing with Cardinals for SP. Lol
Mo will use hudson and thompson amd bring up a triple a pitcher then wont sign any new pitchers the cheap way js the cards way
Cards in the first stage (denial) of grief about the coming inevitable rebuild. They’re built around two aging corner infielders, two young hitters (Walker and Gorman) who have to play out of position, and a bunch of decent to good role players who are soon going to be making real money. And almost no pitching. Bad situation. Let’s see how long it takes for them to realize they need a full tear down.
They share the same mentality as COL – under NO circumstances will we rebuild even if it makes perfect sense. And as such they’ll enjoy the same year-in, year-out mediocrity that’s become part of the Rockies’ brand.
I’m not a Cards fan, but did you just seriously compare the Cards to the Rox?
Lol silly Cubs fan.
First year with a losing record since 2007 and that year Carpenter broke down because he helped carry the Cardinals to the 2006 championship.
The team is doing fine. Couple good trades and it’s back to running the division.
Forgot about Nootbar and Donovan bud…aging infielders are also some of the best at their positions, idc how old they are..Contreras is hitting and a good young catcher in Herrera…plus Winn coming up…so the infield is covered and the outfield needs a CF….what world do you live in seamaholic…also they are not about to make money…lol this is like their first year of full service lol you have no idea what you are saying
I’ll give you the pitching, but the offense is spectacular and already at playoff level for next year right now, even if they have to trade a guy or two to help rebuild the pitching staff.. The defense isn’t as good as it once was, but it’s still decent at worse (and better than that if Walker either gets better in the outfield or winds up as the primary DH)..
This is just a poor take all the way around. Their offense is one of the better offenses in the league this year and they have more bats than places to play them, plus multiple legitimate bats ready to make the jump to the majors next year. They are going to turn their excess bats into pitching and have a real amount of money to spend on the FA market and they will be perfectly fine next year.
Cardinals…just like the Arizona Cardinals…all hype.
Cards: we have 5 guys that play multiple positions below average..give us your top pitching prospect for 2 of them…hang up dial tone.
Um, you do know that Carlson, Nootbaar, and Edman are all above-average fielders (or about average at worst in CF for Nootbaar) at every position they play, don’t you?
I’ll have Three starting pitchers, 4 infielders, 7 left fielders, a case of water, 12 rolls of toilet paper, and that $4.99 rotisserie chicken “Sir, this is a Wendy’s drive-thru”.
Chances they bring Gumby or Flaherty back?
Dammit I’m Gumby
I could see Nola or Giolito signing with them after that i think they look towards Lorenzon and the lower tiers
Monty I could see… and I can already picture Paxton in the StL cap.
Err… reply to JimtheGoat! Saperlipoppette!
I fully recognize that no team should handle their in house business based on what other teams’ situations or needs are but…every team in the NL Central needs pitching. Brewers less so than the rest but they could use a back end starter for depth purposes and as a safety net for a potential Burnes or Woodruff trade this offseason. Given this dynamic if I were GM of any other team in the Central I’d prioritize identifying and signing the free agent pitchers you like on day one of free agency. Main reason is to get the guy you want but secondary benefit is to thin out the Cardinals’ options.
Trade Contreras to San Diego for whatever they can get back pitching wise even if it’s Hader and a prospect.
I think Hader is a free agent
Piece of piss, Bowtie’s got this.
I like the thought. What scares me is, instead of bringing in a No. 1 and No.2 and a No. 4 around No. 3 Mikolas and No. 5 Matz, DeWitt will choose to bring in several No. 4’s and 5’s and put them behind Mikolas and Matz and call it good… “we have plenty of depth that we can call upon if needed,” Mo will say.
I hope I’m wrong. With a true No. 1 and No. 2 — brought in either through trade or free agency — combined with next year’s projected offense, the Cardinals would be a good playoff team.
But will Cardinal brass put their money where their mouth is?
This is again Mozaliak showing his stupidity. Nola is probably staying in Phi, Urias will sign with the the Padres, Snell will also stay lit and Ohtani doesn’t want to leave the west coast. So they are destined to sign the Kyle Gibson and Rich Hill as their big gets and then add Noah SAyndergard. The free agent SP after 2024 is much better. What they need to do is not a single starter. Let all the young guys they just squired and the ones they already had get a shot in the rotation next year and see if any of them look like they can good starters. Then on 2025 try and get a few of Cole, Glasgow, Burnes, Buehler, Wheeler, Ray, Fried, Siroka or the other based off how many holes are left to fill after evaluating the young guys. With Goldschmidt being gone and Arenado most likely forcing a trade out, that leaves plenty of money to sign multiple expensive pitchers plus go after Soto. They already have a hard time convincing one elite free agent to sign here because they hate the FO, but if they can get one perhaps they can use that as momentum to get multiples. 2024 is already a bust of season regardless of what they do anyway.
Why are you making predictions and calling them facts? How do you possibly know where Nola is going? Why does Urias go to the Pads? How do you know Ohtani wants to stay on the West Coast? Sheesh, you go way too far. How about starting one of your rants with, “IMHO”? blah blah blah.
Because i listen to a lot of baseball talk radio?? Nola and the Phils have been trying to get an extension done for a while. Ohtani’s people have said his desire is to stay on the west coast. The Padres said they were considering trading Snell at the deadline but were wanting bring him back for next year. And Yes, Urias is a guess, but it seems like a very good fit.
Ok, then share the evidence to support your claims so people don’t have to ask about them. Also, don’t ever forget this fact: Money Talks. And, “Show me the money!” Free Agents generally go where the money and contract is the BEST. Not always, like in the case of the Giants and Judge last off-season, but usually.
Sure thing. I have this topic secret code named google that makes looking this up a breeze. si.com/mlb/phillies/news/philadelphia-phillies-exp….
sbnation.com/platform/amp/mlb/2023/7/19/23800184/s…
si.com/mlb/padres/.amp/news/padres-news-amid-rumor…
Even if the Cardinals were to punt on 2024 (which they aren’t), Arenado would be staying put to help them contend in 2025 and 2026.
Meanwhile, elite free agents do NOT hate the front office. Heck, they signed Contreras just last offseason.
Do you live under a rock? There wasn’t much interest in Contreras for his asking price last year, plus it took Yadier Molina to convince him to sign here. Contreras aside, name the last big name free agent to sign with the Cardinals under Mozaliak’s tenure. I’ll save you the time, you can’t. They have been able to retain guys, but they have signed anyone who wasn’t already on the teams. Ben Fredrickson of the Post Dispatch just published an article reminding everyone that regardless of money players have simply and publicly said hell no to STL. He recalls Stanton refusing to waive his NTC, and Proce and Heyward simply saying no thanks.
As for Arenado, after the club idiotically signs multiple 4/5th starters to play the roll of aces this off season, guaranteeing multiple additional bad years beyond ‘24 he will request out, just like he did in Colorado. Goldschmidt will be gone after next year at the latest so there will be no reason for him to stay. As another commenter stated, the CRdibals opperate lie the Rockies trying to be mediocre every year and rely on the clubs around you to have down years making you look better. So just like he did in Colorado, he will get frustrate with the losing, the front office only bringing in merely average players and publicly request out. Now if the club does nothing for ‘24 and publicly states it’s intentions for ‘25 he might give them the opportunity to prove it before requesting out.
One day you’ll learn have more insights then you and I’m rarely wrong besides the blind faithful telling me otherwise. As Iloilo by my repetitive pre-season proclamations that the cardinals were a sub .500 teams and it will be the Brewers and Cubs battling for the division title. That was as easy to see as the two future outcomes for the Cardinals, which again doing nothing for ‘24 and actually having a plan for ‘25 and ‘26 now is the best option. However as long as Mo is here they will continue to live paycheck by paycheck or year by year with out thinking about the long term outcomes.
Just imho, and because I find the Cardinal’s situation interesting, bordering on unique, but they should trade Goldy & Arenado.
C-Contreras
1B-Walker
2B-Donavan
3B-Gorman
SS-Edman
LF-O’Neill
CF-Carlson
RF-Nootbar
DH/Bench-Burleson
Except for Contreras, I think everyone is 28 or younger? And again, except for Contreras, the rest of the field team might cost $20M?
I think that would be at least a league-average or better position team, with a gazillion $$$ left to acquire pitching. Heck, with the payroll so low, the Cards could afford to pick up salary on Goldy & Arenado, and get a real return.
I agree with you. And that’s exactly why they should not do anything going into 2024. They can flip Arenado and Goldschmidt for future prospects. They have Nootbaar, he’s a serviceable 3rd outfielder. But they still need to outfield bats in addition to pitching. Chase Davis should fill one in 2025. With the money they will have in hand without the burden of Arenado’s and Goldschmidt’s contracts they can make a splash after 2024 and sign not only two high starters but be able to go after Soto or Bellinger and Torres at a lesser amount.
It is a unique situation in St Louis. We’ve sure never had a season like this before, and may I add, this coming Hot Stove will be incredible and should become a documentary on ESPN or something. At least have a book made about it. Anyway….
Let’s talk about Cardinals’ reality first. Arenado will NOT be traded. Goldy will NOT be traded. Hopefully, tho, he won’t be extended either. I’d prefer that they do try and trade him, but I know Moe too well to know that he won’t trade him for the 2024 season.
O’Neill is as good as gone in trade. Carlson will be traded. Donovan may be traded. Contreras and the catching situation will be fun to watch this winter. We have a really good young catcher in Memphis. So, really any of our 3 catchers could be traded, but Derrick Goold says that Knizner will be offered in trade. Cardinals do in fact have lots of available resources for pitching acquisitions this winter.
The cardinals may not have any current plans on trading Arenado, but after they roll out a rotation of Mikolis, Matz, Gibson, Hill and one of Liberatore, Hudson, Rom, McGreevy, Thompson, Robbie, Robberse, Graceffo, and they are having s repeat of 2024 in 2025, he will will demand out just like he did in Colorado.
Herrera we will see on. He was really bad in 11 games in 2022 and solid in 8 games so far in 2023. With Bernal and Crooks making their way up, Herrera is a sell high candidate.
It’s a plan, your plan, I doubt it’s Moe’s plan. He won’t have the luxury of waiting on 2025. Personally, IMHO, you keep Arenado because of his 3rd base defense and he’s our most consistent power hitter. He stays for 3 more years. Trade Goldy this winter for an MLB #2 or #3 and a reliever. Play a Burly/Baker platoon at 1st base. Wouldn’t that be fun? Tommy backs up SS & 2nd base behind Winn and Gorman. Noot, VS2, and Walker in the OF. And 2 of Contreras, Herrera, Knizner to man Catcher. Sign Yamamoto at 3 yrs $75M. Sign Giolito for similar. Mikolas, Matz, and the rest of the current pitching pipeline for #4-5 starter slots.
Arenado won’t want to be here once Goldschmidt is gone. You are correct, it’s my plan, not Mozaliak’s plan, because I’m he is an imbecile. If he would admit to fans that 2024 will look like 2023 but there plans to start turning it around as soon as 2025, he could not only wait until 2025 so he can make the correct moves for the long term of the club, but also get some positive views because he won’t take backlash for the results of 2024 and he’d have a 15 month window to work with.
I don’t think mozeliak is a bad GM, his Strategy of never going all in and trying to keep a constantly solid but not overwhelming team has worked pretty well the last half decade+ (kinda like the guardians do it too) but I feel he really miss judged the situation this year.
1) underestimating the shift ban and changes in the game:
The cardinals way always has been controlling the zone.they want hitters with good strikeout to walk ratios and pitchers who throw strikes. That isn’t a bad thing but especially on the pitching side the shift ban means that you can’t just let them hit and let the defense do the work anymore but you need swing and miss.
The cardinals should have addressed that pre season and got at least one high k rate starter if not two.
2) roster construction
Cards went into the season with a logjam in the outfield and unnecessarily added to that by calling up walker on opening day.
Burleson, nootbaar,o Neill, Donovan,Carlsson and walker all got playing time in the OF, one, if not two of them should have been traded pre season for pitching.
I agree with your analysis. However, I would add to it. They underestimated the impact that yadi had on the pitching staff and the entire clubhouse. He was their experienced manager that counteracted Oli’s impact.
There’s a reason Maddox left, and that Holiday had such a drastic change of heart. Whatever is going on there is still going to be happening next season until the house is cleaned.
I agree. Contreras is a below average defensive catcher but he also was thrown into a very difficult Situation both mentally (following an absolute legend) and also regarding skills (being tasked to squeeze the most of an underpowered staff).
I think the cards staff was already walking on thin ice the last couple years having not enough swing and miss stuff but with yadi and smart use of defense they were able to “duct tape” it into decent results.
Even in 2022 the cards starters already only were 26th in K rate and 23rd in k-bb but the results were decent (3.96 Era which wasn’t great but middle of the pack. This year their K-bb rate and k rate isn’t really worse than last year (of course it was already bad then) but results are much worse (4.7 instead of 3.9 era).
The task to follow yadi would always have been though for contreras but Mo put him into an extra difficult job where it wasn’t just enough to be ok at catching but where he was expected to get something extra out of an underpowered staff while also losing the shift. He was put into a position to fail by Mo.
The thinking by Mo to not find an exact yadi clone but a more offensive minded but defensively worse catcher wasn’t all that bad but then you need a staff that supports that and not a staff that needs a catching legend to sneak sub par stuff past the batters without getting destroyed.
The Molina affect is vastly over stated. He only played in 78 games last year, and he was in Puerto Rico for a chunk of games when he wasn’t playing. If your going to put so much emphasis on the Molina affect you might as well give 100% belief to the problems all being the fault of the players being at the WBC rather than in spring training. The simple fact are they are lacking truely impactful players and their is descent snd turmoil in the front office.
I don’t think it’s overstated at all. Yadi’s leadership wasn’t just something that happened when he was playing, it was something that everyone was used to. Even when he wasn’t there, it was instilled in the pitchers and he made sure knizner was working as hard as he was when it came to studying and review. He knew how to bring confidence to the clubhouse and it was contagious.
Ofc I know there’s plenty of other issues.
Your saying he used telepathic methods to send his leadership to the team while he was in puerto rico for more than a month?
Habits were already formed. The way of doing things was already set whether he was there or not. Starting a new season without him setting expectations for teammates around him is a pretty big loss.
@domingo
Not going all in = Staying to the teams budget. That’s how GMs keep their jobs.
There’s quite a possibility that the cardinals try to resign Monty and Flaherty. I would expect one of them to be back, but unfortunately the second pitcher they sign is probably not going to be as good.
I would hope they trade for Gilbert or someone with true ace potential. If they can sign monty + acquire Gilbert or someone similar, they could afford to give liberatore another chance in the rotation, or someone in AAA.
Flare is not coming back. That’s not happening. Monty maybe, but he’s going to get paid regardless.
I’m sure if they ask nicely, some team will just give them a pitcher “with ace potential”, because those other teams just can’t recognize they have ” ace potential”. They may have to work with a team that has just too many pitchers “with ace potential” and are looking to trade their excess.
Unsure why the snark, but I fully expect them to trade someone like edman, and others in order to get someone like Gilbert. I have never been one to overvalue certain players when it comes to addressing a very obvious need. People are going to be sad to see certain players go, but it needs to happen.
Bullpen
The Mariners and Cardinals would be a decent match as trade partners this Winter. As a Mariners fan, I hope they try and acquire T. Edman.
Cardinals probably won’t trade Tommy Edman because they need a SS back-up to support Masyn Winn, their young SS phenom. I can’t see them dealing Tommy and leaving SS vulnerable, not to mention CF.
So they would keep the one guy who may fetch them a decent mid-rotation starter so that he can be on the bench just in case? Is that you, Mo?
This mindset is a loser’s mindset (no knock on you, BradBaar). I think you’re correct. I think the Cards will probably refuse to trade from their surplus because they’ll overvalue the need for offensive depth over their need for starting pitching. They’ve done it for several years now and I don’t see them changing anytime soon.
It’s not a “losers’ mentality.” It’s smart and it’s wise. Now, let me address this further. I love Brendan Donovan, however, we just traded for Prieto and Saggasse who are both Donovan-like infielders and great hitters. BD is now available to trade. But, we simply DO NOT have a backup SS at all in the system. There’s no one. So, God forbid, Masyn Winn gets injured or is worse, ineffective, then we need Tommy to back him up. What’s your plan for SS? It’s too important of position to leave unprotected. Tommy can also platoon with Gorman at 2nd base, because Gorman is going to miss a few games per month with back ailments. Tommy can also play CF, but Victor Scott II is arriving soon, too, maybe 2025. Finally, what’s Tommy really worth in trade? He’s NOT the only value player that we have available for trade. There are plenty.
Scott is just a faster duplicate of Carlson and Nootbaar. He lacks power and his arm is terrible. He’ll struggle to hit in the majors and probably have a walk first approach like Nootbaar. If it wasn’t for his elite speed, you’d never had heard of him. Similarity to Billy Hamilton, flashy base running gets you noticed, but it’s not enough for the majors. They have better OF prospects in Cho, Baez and Honeywell. Baez could be a stud if the Cardinals ever figure out how to develop players.
Plenty of serviceable backup SS available every year. Mateo for one…
Cards shouldn’t settle for “serviceable.” With Masyn and Tommy we have excellence at SS, and with Tommy we have excellence at whatever position on the field he plays. Period. Plus, he and his pretty asian wife, and Noot! can all be used to recruit Shohei and Yamamoto this off-season!!
Prieto would be a fine backup to Winn. One of Edman or Donovan will go. The team is getting a log jam in the middle infield and outfield.
Mitch Keller pirates will be in a rebuild mode this off-season
He isn’t amazing or anything but why would they trade him to a division rival? I’m sure plenty out of the division would take him as well.
STL needs a different manager.
It’s a bad combination to lack the ability to draft and develop pitching and then in turn refuse to sign impact pitchers in free agency or trade surplus offense to acquire even adequate pitching.
and then in turn refuse to sign impact pitchers in free agency
===============================
The top FA SPs last year were:
Rodon $162M/6
DeGrom $185M/5
Verlander $86.66/2
So, and i will give you the advantage of 20/20 hindsight, do you really think that NOT signing those three guys was really the issue?
Nola, Monty and Paxton seem good fits, plus whatever they could get for ONeill (Keuchel?) … still a mess Moz has made tho
The cards should FIREMOZELIAK what a joke of a GM
So non chalant. We’re going to add 3 pitchers.
Like they grow on trees…
The Cards really should have thought of this before the 2023 season.
In 2022 they got MVP seasons from three players, got a remarkable season from Wainright at age 40, lost the very useful Quintana (were they really unwilling to go to what the Mets offered him?), got 1/3 of Montgomery’s career year, knew they were losing Yady, and largely stood pat. Heck, they even got to see Matz up close.
Did they really not expect to drop 15-20 wins just from normal regression?
Derrrrrr…who isn’t??? This is news?
Mo is a clown. Three starters. Cards need good starters and an ACE not just three starters.