The Cardinals approach the trade deadline in an unfamiliar position as sellers. Sitting 12 games under .500 and in last place in the NL Central, St. Louis joins the Rockies, Nationals and Pirates as the only National League clubs at least 10 games out of a playoff spot.
President of baseball operations John Mozeliak admitted last week the Cards were turning their attention towards 2024. He expanded upon that in a wide-ranging conversation with the St. Louis beat this afternoon (YouTube link via Charlie Marlow of 590 The Fan). Cards’ fans will want to check out the complete media session.
Mozeliak conceded there wasn’t much hope of avoiding a sell-off of short-term pieces at this stage of the season. “Does performance (over the next two weeks) change our direction? Probably not at this point. Where we are in the standings, it’s going to make it very difficult to change that.” He left open the possibility of something like an eight-game win streak altering the equation but it’s clear the front office anticipates parting with a number of veteran players over the next couple weeks.
The front office leader restated they’re prioritizing trade targets who could help the big league team in the near future. Mozeliak indicated they’d look for players who’d be MLB factors by 2024-25 and was rather blunt about their positional desires.
“We’re going to treat the trading deadline as ’pitching, pitching, pitching,'” he said. “That’s not to say we’re going to ignore a position player that may be uber-great … but the goal would be to address as much pitching as possible.”
It isn’t hard to understand why. The rotation has been St. Louis’ biggest problem area. Cardinals’ starters entered play Monday ranked 25th in MLB with a 4.64 ERA. That’s obviously insufficient to begin with and it’s only likely to thin out over the next few weeks. Jordan Montgomery and Jack Flaherty are impending free agents who both seem likely to change uniforms by August 1. Adam Wainwright isn’t a trade candidate but he’s retiring at season’s end.
That’s three vacancies arising before 2024. Only Miles Mikolas seems a lock for next year’s season-opening rotation. Steven Matz is under contract for two more seasons but has bounced between the starting staff and the bullpen this year. Matthew Liberatore has been tagged for a 6.39 ERA over eight MLB starts. Righty Jake Woodford wasn’t much more effective in an early-season rotation look. Former first round draftee Zack Thompson could compete for a ’24 rotation spot but has one MLB start to his name.
While St. Louis will scour the trade market for upper level starting pitching, they’ll also have to dip into free agency next winter. Mozeliak conceded it’d be nearly impossible to envision the Cards not adding a free agent starter and indicated the organization should have enough financial flexibility to attack the open market.
Interestingly, he indicated the organization’s approach to pitching acquisition could be a little different moving forward. St. Louis has prioritized ground-ball pitchers in recent seasons, relying on an excellent infield defense to support a pitch-to-contact staff. That hasn’t worked this year. St. Louis has allowed an MLB-worst .324 batting average on grounders. That’s a huge change from seasons past, one Mozeliak admitted could impact the way the front office approaches things.
The team is likely to prioritize “more swing-and-miss versus ground-ball types,” he said. Only the Rockies and Royals have gotten a lower strikeout rate out of their rotation than St. Louis’ 18.4% clip. The bullpen has been more effective, ranking 12th with a 24.5% strikeout percentage.
A few members of the relief corps are also likely to be on the way out. The Cards already designated lefty Génesis Cabrera for assignment this morning. Mozeliak called that a “change of scenery” decision, noting that Cabrera is hopeful of landing a higher-leverage role than the one he’d received in St. Louis. Jordan Hicks and Chris Stratton seem likely to be dealt strictly because of their contractual situations. Both are impending free agents and having quality seasons, with the flamethrowing Hicks standing out as a particularly desirable rental trade chip.
There aren’t any true rentals on the position player side, although the Cards seem likely to opt for a $1MM buyout over a $12.5MM club option on shortstop Paul DeJong. A middle infield logjam also comprising Tommy Edman, Brendan Donovan, Nolan Gorman and eventually top prospect Masyn Winn makes a DeJong trade seem likely.
Left fielder Tyler O’Neill has seemed a potential trade candidate amidst a season decimated by back issues. Mozeliak didn’t expressly rule that out but seemed to cast some doubt on that possibility today, saying the Cardinals anticipated playing O’Neill as their everyday left fielder. He has been on the injured list since May 4 but could be reinstated before tomorrow’s game against Miami.
O’Neill is playing this season on a $4.95MM salary. The club can retain him for one more season via arbitration. St. Louis has enough outfield depth that O’Neill could be a non-tender candidate next winter, though it’s also possible they deal another outfielder to clear space. Star rookie Jordan Walker isn’t going anywhere, and Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch wrote last week the Cards were telling other clubs they had no intention of moving Lars Nootbaar.
That arguably leaves Dylan Carlson as an odd man out. The former top prospect is hitting .243/.350/.376 over 203 trips to the plate. He reaches arbitration for the first time next winter and isn’t eligible for free agency until after the 2026 campaign. Mark Feinsand of MLB.com indicated this evening (on Twitter) the Yankees could have some interest in Carlson as they search for outfield help.
Of course, there are no bigger names the Cardinals could put on the trade market than their star corner infield tandem of Paul Goldschmidt and Nolan Arenado. Mozeliak declined to declare either player categorically untouchable but strongly downplayed the possibility of moving either. “I don’t have any intentions of trading anybody like them,” he said. “If you’re willing to listen on anything, you have to understand (anything’s possible), but I doubt that would happen.” As he subsequently noted, both players have full no-trade rights, and it seems very unlikely a St. Louis team gearing back up for 2024 would want to part with either of its top two position players regardless.
Loving all these Cardinal articles
How the heck is ONeill gonna play left field everyday after all the nonsense that has went on this year? I just don’t see it. ONeill is my boy but I still say he’s getting dealt and soon.
What’s Carlson worth at this point? I don’t even know.
If the comment section from fans like the Guardians, Orioles and Mariners is any indication of how the GMs view things I truly would be fine not making any trades at all. But I believe it’s not a good example of what GMs are thinking and some teams are going to want to win.
Ready for trades. Team has won 3 in a row I can’t say I am happy about that I am worried we will decide not to sell.
It’s comical how Mo has ruined this franchise.
You put Mozeliaks record as GM or whatever he’s calling himself now against anyone else’s in baseball and it looks good.
Half the teams in the league would hire him tomorrow if he was available.
Mo inherited an incredible org from top to bottom. He has since squandered it. Only Goldy and Arenado have any major trade value on this team. Walker, Gorman, Hence should stay but they should fire sale the rest after firing Mo and Oli. They need to hire a front office with a vision. Cardinals have no pitching identity or mold whatsoever. They cannot develop arms. M’s and Cardinals fan here, wish both teams succeed. The teams match up nicely for a trade.
Record or trades?
Haven’t had a losing record since 2007.
I wouldn’t call that squandering
And if you are a Mariners fan they have made the playoffs only 1 time in the last 20 freaking years.
Come on man.
What could our OF be?
Ive been a cards fan a lot longer than M’s, but I moved to Seattle and grew up w Griffey. Didnt mean any disrespect and I still root for the Cards. But those records have only been good enough to be competitive in the central with 2 or 3 clubs tanking that entire time. Hope I’m wrong but I just don’t think Mo really has any vision, which is why this org seems to be going backwards.
Half the teams in baseball are run by idiots or businessmen that don’t care about World Series Titles.
It’s great you’re happy with him. I’m not. He is great at rebuilding without us really going below 500 much. And he’s great at selling a “prolonged non-urgent rebuild” as a “going for it” strategy. But he is not great at talent evaluation or building a World Series team. He says he doesn’t believe in windows. Bulloney. He believes in keeping them open a sliver permanently. Just so a breath of hope will keep our desperation alive and gulping.
Now the wind has slammed that one inch opening shut, and it’s jammed. This is the time for Cards fans to really hope. In Bill and MO’s frantic scramble to get the stuck window open before we choke, they could very well accidentally open it much wider than an inch. A good push, and a timely gust, could just bust it open wide for a couple years.
Correct. No vision for us being one of the best teams anyway.
In 2022 the Cardinals won the division and had 2 of the top 3 players in MVP votes.
That was last year man.
Yeah we havent won a championship in a while. But lots of teams can say the same thing.
This year has sucked.
I believe the problem is the manager. And yes Mozeliak hires the manager. But Mozeliak has done a lot of good things too. Get a new manager, one with experience unlike the last 3, and the team will be better.
MO also hired a pitching coach with zero coaching experience at any level. He did something over the off season to cause a mass exxodus of coaches. Is it any wonder the team looks lost? Both the hitting and pitching coaches are rookies and it shows. I’m a bit mystified as to why the media chooses to completely ignore the coaching situation. It’s an obvious issue.
Had one in Schildt and fired him. Why?
THIS is a losing season. Arguing it isn’t just because there’s a chance “we can still turn it around!” is just being pedantic. He’s admitted as much in his comments.
Your team needs to dump Wilson C. for whatever they can get back in a trade even if it means attaching someone or taking back a negative value.
Wilson C. was ran out of Chicago because of his horrible catching skills and attitude, so him and the manager should be the first two things gone as soon as possible and this is coming from a Cubs fan!
Garcia, Arozarena, Bader?
Carlson, Nootbaar, Walker?
Who knows. Mo has got to go. He’s making a proud franchise into a mediocre garbage pile.
Agree 100%. Kind of surprised this rarely gets mentioned. Dusty Blake doesn’t seem to be a keeper.
Sportsmutt
And he’s great at selling a “prolonged non-urgent rebuild” as a “going for it” strategy
========================
I’m not a Cards fan, but when have they ever had a “prolonged non-urgent rebuild”? Aren’t they always in the playoffs?
JoeBrady
The problem is they will have gone 10 years without a playoff win after this year. That’s unacceptable given the tremendous support they are given. MO inherited an extremely good team from La Russa. Make no mistake who was evaluating trades and signings when La Russa was in St Louis. Jeff Luhnow had far more to do with building the overall organization than MO. He went to Houston and built one of the best teams in MLB.
Mo has slowly squandered all of that culminating in a very embarrasing year. I could list dozens of things. Signing a young inexperienced manager who looks over his head. The Contrearas debacle made the team a national laughing stock. Signing a player just two hours after releasing the player. Signing a pitching coach who has never coached at any professional level. Doing something over the off season which resulted in a mass exodus of the coaching staff. They didn’t retire. They chose to go elsewhere. Why?
Ouch. You’re gonna dog Schildt for getting fired after proving he can win?
Mo doesn’t make a single decision that DeWitt doesn’t sign off on. The biggest hoax in the organization is that DeWitt is actually a Cardinals’ fan.
You’ve lost your mind
Isn’t it strange Mo is telling the world what he’s doing? Even though it’s obvious don’t you want to play things closer to the best and not look desperate? Seems odd to me.
Schildt was a terrible manager
If Schilt.was terrible then what is Marmol?
They’ve been teeing off from the women’s tees in the nl central. Mo is weak
Compared to who? Manager of the Year with a staff that respected him and a winning record every year. Unlike Marmol – the 30-something year old crybaby who benches people just to prove he’s in charge? Mo just has too much pride to admit his experiment is failing.
Disastrous!
Schildt was terrible remember how he kept playing fowler
That’s true but I think Mozeliak was telling him to do it.
They went to the NLCS in 2019 lol
Dylan Carlson is going to the Guardians for Xavion Curry
Xzavion Curry hurled three scoreless innings on Monday in a spot start against the Pirates.
Curry took the ball for Monday’s series opener against the Pirates and wound up scattering one hit and one walk over three strong frames before handing the ball to the rest of Cleveland’s bullpen. The 24-year-old righty holds a strong 2.86 ERA, 1.13 WHIP and 34/11 K/BB ratio across 50 1/3 innings (24 appearances, one start).
OIC2021
I’d go for that trade Carlson needs to go somewhere he’s given playing time. I think he’ll thrive.
Apparently the Cardinals have to play bad in order to get articles written about them. Truthfully that is what keeps me from signing up for the premium subscription for this site.
So… they’ve had articles on them all season then?
The Cardinals FO does not release much information about the team so not many articles get written about our team. This site doesn’t do articles about speculative player or office moves. There has to be a credible source for baseball articles. Facts have to be verified. There is not much written about the Cardinals.
They don’t do speculative articles? What site have you been reading?
The articles are being published because the Cardinals have a lot of fans and a lot a haters. That generates clicks and add revenue. They really don’t care how the team is playing.
I’m loving all of these Cardinals articles also … rotflmao
Desperately Seeking Starters. Good luck with that.
Who’s your team champ?
Good luck troll
Every team is in need of starters even the rays what a buffoon
Hard to take anyone who actually types out “rotflmao” seriously.
I thought it was Nuke town 2025 for him? Whoops it’s 2023….
Everyday left fielder? No way.. Tyler needs a 130 game schedule a 4th outfield will keep him more healthy? Of course you get paid big to be in the lineup 162 games… not 115-130?
He was healthy today. Wasn’t playing.
If you looked up how many games he’s sat on the bench healthy during his career it would be shocking. Maybe you should.
The “best fans in baseball” never cease to amaze me. I don’t get the Carlson hate at all. By wRC+, he’s been an average hitter over his young career. That, combined with solid outfield defense (including CF), his youth, and low salary make him valuable. You people forget along the time he’s only 24. They’re plenty of examples of former top prospects taking several years to break out
I hope mo trades a couple of outfielders to open more playing time for Burleson
You mean Burly of course
Trade future multiple MVP and HOFer Lars Nootbar for a kings ransom.
This feels like pandering to the lowest denominator for likes.
Is that what this is?
If you think he’s overrated stop talking about him. That’s a start….
I agree. I keep reading he’s “untouchable”. He’s our 3rd best defensive CF behind Edman and Carlson. He will be lucky to get 20hr/10sb in a season, and I don’t see him ever batting .300. He is a .250 guy who has a good eye so he can get obp at .350 and is meant for a corner. Everyone acts like we could get Paul Skenes with this guy. Sell high Mo
Last time I checked I think it was last night trade simulator had Nootbaar at a 57. I think that is very overrated I think he’s worth about half that.
He’s under control for 4 more years after 2023. He’s a lefty bat which is a team need still. I just don’t think it makes any sense to trade him. There are 15 other guys I would trade before him.
But do we have 15 guys other teams actually want at this point? I’m sure a 110 wrc corner OF isn’t that difficult to find.
I could name 10
Montgomery
Hicks
Flaherty
Stratton
ONeill
Herrera
DeJong
Donovan or Gorman
Baker or Burleson
Verhagen
Those are all guys I think should be traded as long as it’s for a fair return.
Fair enough, kind of reaching towards the bottom though. Not sure if the last 3 are worth much. I like Burleson but he hasn’t preformed this year, mostly because I think he doesn’t play, should be in AAA until an everyday spot opens. O’Neill might be tough sell too right now. I’d rather keep Donovan and Gorman since they can play the IF. Don’t think any of them have more value then Noot right now, and he’s the most replaceable and most coveted apparently
Aside from Donovan and Gorman yeah Nootbaar has more value than anyone. I just don’t see why the Cardinals would or should trade him. He’s not amazing but he’s a good solid player.
If Nootbaar was actually worth the 57 trade ranking I saw on trade simulator sure I would pack his bags myself. But I don’t think he actually is worth that much.
The needing of a “lefty bat” has always been a overstated thing You need guys that can hit rh pitching whether they are rh hitters or left handed hitters. As a matter of fact rh hitters are typically less susceptible to same handed pitching.
spot on
noot is just another guy
I think he’s a solid player. No nothing special but worth playing.
You have a point. Last year, Mo deemed Dylan Carlson “untouchable” in trades. Now? Olli said he will lose at-bats the rest of the way.
Hell, Nootbaar could face the same thing next year if he gets into Olli’s doghouse.
Marmol needs to go. He’s no good.
Pitching pitching pitching.
No crap
It’s not really the pitching though. The organization had one of the best pitching coaches on the planet in Dave Duncan, who taught Yadier Molina a tremendous amount. Their issue was trying to sign backup catchers for years instead of giving people like Knizner and Herrera the time for Molina to mentor them. Now that Molina is retired, the pitching staff is seeing what happens when you lose your catcher…
So here is my proposal:
Cards send:
Goldy
Noot
Tommy
Flaherty
Knizner
To the Marlins for:
Luzardo
Max Meyer
Sixto Sanchez
Avisail Garcia
I like most of that but no way would I want Garcias contract. If we trade Goldy I want to sign a big name starter this offseason. I guess Luzardo could be that guy but he’s from Miami I think maybe he stays put
I like most of it. Edman makes sense for them. Maybe they take DeJong instead he’s not as valuable of course.
We would have to take Garcia to make the money work. I don’t want him either, but the Marlins aren’t going to take on huge salary and give away arms. We’d need to take on some money somewhere.
That’s a nasty contract man. I guess with Luzardo it could be fair but I hate that contract have since he signed it and it’s only gotten worse.
Herrera makes sense for the Marlins. They need a catcher.
You’re right about the contract. Everything about Garcia sucks. But we would have to eat some money somewhere. I guess we could take Seguera. I’m not giving up Herrera in this deal. Trade Simulator says the Marlins would actually have to add a piece to make this fair. But it solves problems for both teams. It is also a huge roll of the dice for both sides. But the total number of players involved spreads the risk for both sides.
Yeah trade the entire offense and the most valuable players on the team for mostly mediocre assets. Donny boy please never discuss the cardinals again
I think trade simulator is wrong about Herrera. If his actual value is 7 I am not trading him but I think it’s more like 20.
Oh boy all you kids living in your fantasy land using meaningless trade simulator. Embarrassing
I know people love that baseball trade values site, but I think there are serious problems with some of their values, which makes me question all of them. Example: they list Arenado as a -17.3 and Josh Donaldson at -14.3. Is there anyone here who would deal Arenado for Donaldson straight up (or thinks the Cardinals would have to include Jordan Hicks 2.7 to even out the deal)? Even in a down year, does anyone think Arenado is a negative asset?
I think you have to use your own common sense when using the simulator. Agree completely about Arenado no way he has negative value. Some values are wrong I try to use it as a guide and also use my brain.
Stevie
I hear you. My proposal is painful. The guys I’m trading are basically my favorite players. But the Cardinals need to make big changes. Luzardo and Meyer are better then any arm in the Cardinal system. I know Garcia sucks. It’s a money swap.
Think of it this way: The guys going to Miami are going to a strong team coached by former Cardinals. They automatically become my favorite team to watch in this year’s playoffs. It’s a reason to watch.
Devlish
I agree. I don’t really agree with the simulator. But I ran the idea through just to see what happened. When you have that many players involved it sort of evens out. I think it’s fair. It solves short and long term problems for both teams.
Yes, Nolan has negative trade value because the future money owed to him from the Cardinals is more than his future value. When you’re getting paid tens of millions of dollars, it takes just one “off” season to put that contract underwater.
His contract was underwater when the Cardinals acquired him. The Rockies had to throw in $50 million and obtained middling talent for him.
But he’s been great since he was traded to the Cardinals. So no his contract is not still under water at all. And he also gets paid less yearly as he gets older which is uncommon for large contracts.
But he’s also negative in almost every defensive metric this year, for the first time in his career, which shows a physical decline. He’s still producing with the bat, but we’re pretty jammed up with 1b/dh options.
Was he in physical decline in 2020? Because he was top 3 in MVP votes in 2022.
Thats a good contract. His salary declines as he ages look it up.
In all fairness, most of Arenado’s errors have been more of the mental than physical variety. I haven’t seen any obvious signs of physical decline. His range is still excellent, His arm is fine, Our pitchers running full counts on every hitter doesn’t help any defender. I watch the games. The metrics can say what they want, but physically I don’t see any decline in Nolan Arenado.
It was underwater when they obtained him. Then last year he was nearly MVP.
He didn’t opt out. He was happy with his situation in StL, However, the extra money he may have received was also not worth the risk of entering free agency.
Nolan is 32. He’s beginning the decline phase of his career (later than most players). His future value will be based mainly on this year and he’s having the worst season of his career mostly due to his defensive metrics tanking. That’s why his contract is underwater again. Not by much though and he certainly can change that with a strong finish.
There was a bare hander I saw late in the game he came in on, that he would usually get, and it probably wasn’t the only one. That wasn’t mental
How bout we lose Goldy and every Marlin not named Luzardo from your proposal?
It wasn’t underwater when they obtained him after you factor in the money the Rockies are paying. If it was then why would the Cardinals have done the deal???
I see no evidence of an actual decline as Donosborne said its more mental stuff than physical. I think the losing is frustrating him a bit and he sometimes tries to do too much. He’s an incredible competitor
There’s not much reason to do the the trade without Luzardo.
I said not named Luz.
You don’t seem to have been paying attention to what All-star infielders are getting paid. Arenado is a bargain compared to most of them. He has four years left on his contract totalling $94 million after accounting for the $15 million the Rockies will pay. That makes $23.5 million per year for an MVP contender. He’s also only signed through his age 36 year. What planet do you live on? The contract is a big plus – not a minus.
HAL2000 is wrong? Say it isn’t so!
Rockies are only in the hook for $5,000,000 from 24-26 after he opted in this past offseason
@ohyeadam,
Does $5 million for 3 years not add up to $15 million?
The Cards are still on the hook for Bonilla style payments which they are currently paying his 2021 salary with interest plus sharing the deferrals for his 2022 and 2023 seasons. $20 million of the Rockies cash has already been spent on past salaries. BTV is estimating the Cards owe Nolan $124 million which includes the rest of this season. My source is Cots.
@ DonnieElementary.
It doesn’t matter how much the Cardinals owe Arenado in deferrals for trade value of the contract. It only matters what the new team will be on the hook for. It doesn’t matter how much Colorado has sent thus far on trade value. It only matters how much Colorado will be sending in the future.
Don’t overthink this looking for a way to make someone else wrong. Add the salaries for 24 through 27 and subtract the amount Colorada will pay. That’s the amount of responsibility for the new team. $23.5 million per year for a player like Nolan Arenado is a quite a bargain in today’s market. It’s absurd to call that contract a trade negative.
Ok, great. If Nolan was traded today, the Cards will send the new team $30 million to pay him his deferred payments plus whatever he is owed for the rest of this season, just like the Rockies will send the Cards $51 million when all is said and done.
The Cards will then be effectively paying a part of the contract to get a better return in trade.
No, the Cardinals keep sending the checks to Arenado for anything they owe him for time played in St Louis. The new team has nothing to do with that. Colorado will send the money they still owe to the team who currently has Arenado under contract. St Louis would have nothing to do with that. Again, trade value of a contract hinges on what is owed from the time of the trade. Everything prior to that is irrelevant.
Yes. I should’ve followed your math instead of the amount. Thought you meant per year as that’s what they’d been paying
I’m assuming the new team has to pay the terms of the contract. Nolan signed one contract, he gets one payment from his new team. The Rockies still owe the Cardinals $15 million for 2024-26 since the $51 million in the first trade was between those two teams.
Since Arenado is being paid a deferred $2.4 million per year for 2021 from 2022-2031 on July 1, the Cards still owe the new team $19.2 million over the next eight years.
Then there is the $12 million deferred for 2022-2023 to be paid over 2032-2041 (the Rockies paid the Cardinals $16 million in 2023 to help cover the deferrals for 2022-26).
Then there is the non deferred remaining salary for 2023 of about $11.5 million that is owed to the new team to increase the trade return.
Then the Cards will be flipping $15 million from the Rockies to the new team.
That’s about $58 million to be sent to the new team.
It doesn’t look at players for 1 year, you have to ask if his contract is a negative asset.
Trying to use 2020 stats as the basis for any argument is foolish.
Signing a 33 year old 3rd basemen for 4 years @ 23.5/yr, coming off his worst season? Yeah I could see a lot of teams passing on that. Even with his numbers from 2022.
He’s still a good player, but I don’t think I’d want to commit 4 years to him at that price.
If Arenado was a free agent at years end he would get a bigger contract then he has now when you factor in the Rockies paying some of it.
That’s the truth. He’s still a good player. Future Hall of famer.
I think that’s an overpay for the Cardinals..
Four of the guys you’re dealing to Miami are positive assets whereas only Luzardo is a plus coming back. Meyer may be someday, but there’s a sizeable contingent of folks who think he’s destined for the bullpen. Sanchez’ long injury history indicates he’s headed there too IF he comes back at all; I don’t even think he’s worth Flaherty straight up without a long long look at his medicals.. Garcia is a negative, and should actually increase the talent coming back if we took on that salary. It’s a seller’s market too.
If I were countering that deal, I’d insert O’Neill for Noot and Tommy, and I’d want something more in return too, maybe a Patrick Monteverde.
It is a slight overpay. Trade Simulator says the Marlins would have to include another decent young player. However, if you take Noot out of the equation, the whole deal craters. The Marlins aren’t going to part with Luzardo without some long term pieces coming back. They don’t need or want to pay O’Neill long term.
Meyer has a lot of potential. And if he’s a pen guy he’s a stud pen guy and that’s also a need. He could be the closer by 2026 when both Gallegos and Helsleys contracts are up.
Baseball Prospectus had this to say about Meyer: There have been concerns about his fastball shape; we can now say there might not be another big league starting pitcher with less transverse (or active) spin on their fastball. The result is a heater that’s relatively unbothered by upward Magnus effect, caught halfway between acting like a fastball and gyroball….suffice it to say, it didn’t work.
You may very well be right. I’m just saying the Cards need front line arms. They are not going to buy them. So they need another way to get them. Most teams won’t trade healthy, high end arms. Meyer’s injury might make him available. We have to roll the dice somewhere.
I don’t disagree with you and I think your approach is right; I’m just not sure Meyer is an answer to our SP woes and I think in a seller’s market, we ought be getting slightly better in return.
The Dodgers have a slew of potential near ready minor league starters, including Gavin Stone, Ryan Pepiot, Nick Frasso, Nick Natrini, River Ryan and Landon Knack.
I think there’s a real fit with one of our rentals (Flaherty/Montgomery) and perhaps Hicks going to LA, and I’d include a longer term asset too if we could get two or more of those guys. Hicks could free up Philips to be used as their high leverage reliever and Flaherty/Montgomery could help fill the short term need they have now and provide a veteran presence..
This feeds into my fears about trading with an organization that’s smarter than us, but the apparent fit may be too good to pass up.
Dodgers prospects are overcooked and overrated. I don’t want to trade with them at all.
Another guy from Miami worth mentioning is Trevor Rodgers. Former top 5 draft pick had a big season a couple years ago currently hurt should pitch again in 2023 last time I checked.
Luzardo is one of the key pieces that makes Miami a buyer. Need him in playoffs if they want to do anything. Need him next year. No point in being buyers if they trade him.
How many trades do you see with that many mlb players going to a single team in one trade?
Miami will deal prospects for what they need. Not one of their best starters.
Their system isn’t terribly deep. I’m not sure they can add enough to be serious contenders without dealing from the ML roster.
Agree. And system lacks quality even more than depth. It would be a quantity trade. They probably won’t land a big fish. Lots of value and rentals. If you have 3 good starters and a bullpen you are a contender.
Even if their system isn’t that deep, they’re not going to give away key contributing pieces for players. They’re going to likely look for small upgrades that don’t require high profile prospects. They’ll more likely stick to the lower end of the middle of the trade market. They’ll be looking at affordable rentals, guaranteed.
Their starting pitching is young. The rest of the team is over 30. My trade proposal would actually keep them relevant longer than their current roster. I agree it’s way outside of what any contender has done before. But so what? Does the trade work for both teams? Yes. So who cares about history or conventional wisdom? Do the best baseball trade. Forget the critics.
You win and especially in the playoffs with pitching. Unless it’s a 900 1000 ops bat it isn’t going to make enough of a difference. They will add rentals and platoons. You don’t trade one of your playoff starters.
82-
My point is, the Marlins have a small window. Pushing chips in to win this year makes sense. I’ve explained this trade from all sides. People are underestimating Flaherty. He is every bit as talented as Luzardo. SOmeone is going to see that after the deadline. He wants PAID, He will be unhittable in the second half.
Perez is a prospect in the minors.
Walker would help @3B NOW
Perez is a stud. Hopefully use him in playoffs. Have him for playoffs for rest of decade. They will pick up a rental that’s as good almost as good or better than Walker and worry about future 3b in off season or next trade deadline. Perez much more valuable.
I’d like them to look at a Montgomery for Jack Leiter deal with Texas. Leiter has been absolutely horrible, which is probably the only reason he’d be available but his upside is exactly the type of pitcher the Cardinals need….and exactly the type of pitcher other clubs almost never trade. Both clubs could offset the amount of risk they’d be taking by expanding the deal if necessary, but that’s the type of guy I’d go after.
I agree actually looked into this recently and didn’t think the Rangers needed another starter. But I LOVE the Lieter idea. He’s one of those big upside guys we should be targeting like Meyer in Miami or Mize in Detroit.
“If the comment section from fans like the Guardians, Orioles and Mariners is any indication of how the GMs view things I truly would be fine not making any trades at all.”
It seems Cardinals fans should be included in this as well with there illusions of grandeur.
*their*
I think the term is delusions not illusions.
What have I said that doesn’t make sense? I understand that both teams need to benefit from a trade. I use trade simulator to run my ideas past an invited source. What’s the problem?
He’s talking about Stevie.
That is possible lol.
I know. A top pitching prospect for a 2 month rental? How often has it happened recently? Jack has elite stuff. Just needs some control. If they don’t feel they can develop it they will find someone who thinks they can. Most trades are quantity. Ones that have a top 100 prospect is usually a A ball kid. They liked Jack so much they passed on the SS and gave him what 8 million. Not sure they are ready to bail yet and it won’t be for a rental unless it’s Ohtani or something.
Leiter for Montgomery and Hicks is getting pretty close to fair. And the Cardinals can definitely offer both.
But he’s not that close to the majors. They really need guys who can fill a starting spot next season.
We could be talking mid 2024. That’s not too bad.
DonOsbourne;
I’ll keep writing it……
MLB is now about organizations – the same way the NFL and NBA are. All franchises have systems.
The Cardinals….THE CADINALS….with a century-long history of usually being able to get the best out of their pitchers are lost. It’s one thing for a few pitchers to have a bad year. It’s another for literally the entire staff to.
Pitching systems include pitchers now throwing every day, with coaches keeping track of every pitch. They gather analytical data and watch video the way the NFL has young coaches up all night breaking down game film and grading each player depending on game situation on each play. Every team in MLB does this to one extent or another.
It doesn’t matter who the Cardinals sign or trade for. Those pitchers will be put into the Cardinals pitching system – which includes a starting catcher that can’t call/run a game, play defense, and will will follow the Cardinals “intricate” (I believe that’s the word Mozeliak used earlier in the season to describe Willson Contreras’ troubles and why he was being benched for a bit) sysem.
This is not something that’s only happened in 2023. But it has been modified for the worse with Yadi no longer behind the plate and Maddox in Dallas.
These Cardinals are the NL’s Yankees. Mozeliak’s organization mirrors Hal Cashman’s….
A history of awful trades and signings. Relacing an above average manager with a lackey. Overpay for expensive veterans giving them long-term contracts that prove to be bad investments but brecause of heir salary they have to keep playing them. Publicly pushing their young prospects that they can’t develop into anything more than placeholders. Having managers that show no sense of independence or making many smart decisions. Most importantly – living off the reputation of the franchise before they took it over.
The Rays acquire a so-so player they like and the guy becomes more productive than he’s ever been. The Cardinals acquire a player they like. After a spurt they start messing with his game and the guy winds up a part-time player and not producing at the level he was when first acquired. The team doesn’t know how to bring along players or work with them to understand what they have to do on the field to win. I have to believe that MLB pitchers are in fear of being traded to the Cardinals – like position players going to the Angels…..
a place to get misused, suffer injuries, and have your career die.
Carlson and flaterty for Schmidt and better from the yankess
IMHO, you are underestimating the Cards rotation. Wainright has aged out, but Mikolas, Monty, Matz & Flaherty have been pitching pretty well. As a RS fan, I would gladly trade for any of the four, depending on cost (Matz would require some $$$).
The biggest issue for the Cards has been their record in one-run games (9-19). Had they split those 28 games, they would still have a shot at 1st.
“The biggest issue for the Cards has been their record in one-run games (9-19).”
JoeBrady;
B I N G O
That is a team that doesn’t know how to win, with a manager that can’t run a game.
Agreed that the Cardinals rotation is not remotely as bad as they’ve been pitching. Let’s revisit some of those pitchers next year as they get with other teams
I think the one-run games are strictly variance. In 2021, they were 26-19, and in 2022, they were 26-17.
That said, while one-run are mostly random, I find that the teams with the better 8th/9th inning RPs are better equipped to protect a one-run lead. Last year, Helsley & Gallegos combined for a 2.11 ERA. This year, it is 3.86. In fact, the entire BP took a step back from being #11 in ERA to being #25.
Did I read that they had a new pitching coach?
You’re insane. Have you watched them play with your own eyes?!
If you have and still think they have played well enough to be a 1st place team than you don’t think well.
Throw your stat magazine out. The team in person plays badly. The SP has constantly given opponents leads in the first few innings. The Cards are always playing catch up.
Too many part time platoon like players in/out of the lineup.
This team needs an overhaul. Wouldn’t win any playoff series against true SP #1 & 2’s.
The Orioles have plenty of prospects and vine ripened to acquire Nolan Arenado
But no pitchers, The Cards, like the O’s, need pitchers.
Jack & Monty for Hjesterd
I would do that deal. Kjerstad or however you spell his name looks like a stud to me.
I would do Montgomery for Beavers too.
We need to extend our bullpen
However, the Orioles need a legit bat and experience Arenado has both
I would be Content with the rotation, but I would love a bat
Still though, it might be wishful thinking
Because i don’t know if Arenado would want to be traded and of the Cardinals would be willing to trade him
Yeah wishful thinking Arenado don’t want to play in The Wire, as well as you got nothing we want did you not read. 100% you won’t see the orioles and cardinals unless you are wanting our SPs or like Dejong.
Yeah the pitching isn’t there but they have outfielders. Guys who can play center and that’s a need for the Cardinals.
I gotta believe multiple trades are happening.
I am about done talking trades with Orioles fans. Last guy was telling me he didn’t want anything except Ohtani.
Arenado is not available. If you got a suggestion that makes sense I will listen but again my patience is wearing thin.
I am sorry your patience is thin
I don’t want Ohtani
The Orioles have a lot of quality prospects
Time will tell as to what haplens6
Arenado not available. And I swear other Orioles fans were telling me the lineup is just fine and the big need is pitching.
Montgomery for Beavers. That’s my idea and that makes sense. You can have Stratton too.
Unless someone is a fan of a team with deep pockets and a realistic chance to resign Ohtani at seasons end, nobody should want to see their farm gutted for him as a pure rental. I’m a Brewers fan. There’s literally 0 chance the Brewers would be able to resign him. I wouldn’t want to gut the farm to get him because as good as he is, he’s not going to guarantee anyone a championship. Only Yankees, Giants, Dodgers, Mariners fans for sure should want to trade for him. Because outside of his west coast preference, only the Yankees are a team deep enough in money to potentially resign him. Because the Mets will likely just wait until the offseason to open up that pocketbook again since they’re likely not going to be in the race. But really, why would someone want to absolutely blow up their farm to land Ohtani outside of having a chance to resign him after the season.
I remember when the Brewers traded for Sabathia. My best friend is a Brewers fan and we had some of the best times of our lives going to games and fighting for a championship.
Do you remember that?
I also remember last year when the Brewrs were a contender and decided to trade Hader. And then they weren’t a contender anymore.
Yes it would make more sense for Ohtani to go to the Giants. But come on man. That year with Sabathia was the only time I can remember when the Brewers were legit contenders.
For the millionth time the Orioles will not be trading for offense. Henderson, Westburg and Urias are all 3b eligible and Mayo is still in the minors. If anything, expect a minor selloff, most likely any one of Urias, Mateo and Frazier for pitching prospects. The Orioles might be contenders this year but it’s part of a longer assessment period.
O’Neill or Carlson to Yankees for marinaccio
Garcia
Arozerena
Alcantara
Gallen
Umm
Either way, I think Gorman is as good as gone. Which I’m ok with
Off to the Tigers for some of their pitching (not Skubal).
Pitching, pitching, pitching….if you would have addressed this in the offseason like everyone knew you should have, this wouldn’t be a problem right now.
So you gonna make any suggestions or just sit around and tell everyone how smart you are?
Mo should print out your post and put it on his bathroom mirror.
Does Burleson not fit into the Cards future plans? Dude seems like he can hit. A bit over-aggresive, but definitely a major league bat. Is he on the trade block too?
I hope not
You want Burleson? You sure???
I’m not a Cards fan, I just watch a lot of their games, and Burleson seems like he’ll be an MLB regular. Considering he’s a rookie, is he having that bad a season? I mean, it takes most of these guys a year or two to figure it out, right? Curious why Cards fans are out on him.
I like Burly. He’s some what limited, but I agree he is going to hit.
Well he’s not hitting well. He’s not fielding well. And he certainly isn’t a good baserunner.
Besides that he’s great.
Seriously I don’t think he has any value at all at this point.
You forget he might one out best 3 arms out of the bullpen this year
Fans may not like him because they don’t research prospects and because they do not have a multi-dimensionable view of ball players. Most fans want guys who strike batters out and hit home runs. There is so much more to baseball and casual fans don’t have time to check the stats of look at all the nuances of the game.
There are numerous lengthy articles that talk about players, teams, baseball in general where you can become knowledgeable about all aspects of the game. Who has time for that stuff, some of it is boorrring. Me, I have time, I am retired and have been an ardent fan since age 7, 67 years. We can’t and shouldn’t expect fans to know much about our national sport. That means we are going to get a LOT of idiot comments about articles.
Oh well.
I’d move him without hesitation….but again, for equal value. His defense is subpar, and we have a glut of OF.
The real question is: can this organization accurately assess the value of its own players and the value of other organization’s near ready talent? Will we get equal value back in any trade of a long term asset?
I think Burleson is one of those guys they’d like to keep. With their best hitters hitting right-handed, they really want to keep the young lefty hitters like Noot, Gorman, Donovan, and Burly.
Of course, Burleson is obviously fourth on that list, and they would surely trade him if the price is right.
The Seattle Mariners have young pitching that will be MLB ready in late 2023 in Emerson Hancock, 24, 6’4″, 215. He’s (career minors) 20-8 with 3.93 ERA, 1.22 WHIP, 223 K’s in 222 innings.
Prelander Berroa is a flamethrower who’s recently converted to relief. Career minors: 21-12, 3.62, with 466 K’s in 355 innings.
The Mariners would likely strongly consider Brendan Donovan and a lower-level minor leaguer in return for something like that package. The need a 2B with a good BA, good OBP and some years of control.
Hancock is very interesting
Donovan for Hancock?
No
Run that by trade simulator they will say what I am saying that’s not a fair trade.
I agree Donovan makes a lot of sense for the Mariners. But I wouldn’t trade him for Miller let alone Hancock. Hancock looks like a bust.
I agree Donovan is too much to give up, but I wouldn’t mind getting Hancock in a much smaller deal. He’s got the pedigree and build, isn’t far removed from reasonable success at the AA level, and again represents the type of gamble we need to take to get front line starters with upside.
I’d trade him for both though.
Maybe for both
This is where I would go with this.
Trade for Cease (Gorman plus)
Trade Walker/TON for Perez (MIA)
Trade Jack & Monty for 2024 arms
2024 Staff
Cease
Perez
Mikolas
Hence
???
But the Marlins aren’t likely to trade Eury for Jordan. That works for us. It doesn’t solve a problem for them.
3B problem solved.
Walker is a 3B
Hence will have 150 professional innings pitched total, over three years if he hits 100ip this year. I don’t think they’re doing that. It would be cool to just do it like the Marlins did with Perez this year, but I don’t think the Cardinals will do that. Then again this is the same team that keeps putting out one of the worst defensive outfielders in baseball night after night, that never played a game above AA.(until his demotion this year)
I think they will, they are backed in a corner pitching wise. And teams know that.
Marlins aren’t trading Perez. Key piece.
Sox won’t be interested in Gorman as a headliner. Doesn’t move the needle at all.
Maybe your needle is broken then.
Not likely. Cardinals fans will either be complaining about the returns or gm will say the offers weren’t there. Not just Cardinals fans. Most fans of most teams. It’s human nature to over value your own guys.
It is broken
Right. Just saying. I think a second basemen with ok defense that hits 30+ HRs a year from the left side and has years of control might move the needle a tad for some GMs.
I guess if there is a gm that loves hrs so much they will over look his other obvious flaws. He definitely has value but I think they can do better for Cease.
2 best trade “fits” are SEA and MIA
Should be fun boys !
I like Arizona and Baltimore too but yeah for sure agreed.
Yeah. I should if added Balt and AZ
I’m not sure Balt has pitching to give.
AZ has the pitching and maybe a true CF in Tomas who would work.
Off the top of my head
Pfaadt & Tomas
For Jack & Monty.
Makes sense
They are not doing that.
You get where I am going. Framework.
Pitching holds keys.
We have 2 SP that will get dealt.
We can get good value if not great value
Baltimore has outfielders who can play center. Arizona definitely does too. I think we can get the pitching from Seattle or Miami or maybe Detroit but they are a distant third imo.
Fletcher for Flaherty would work for me.
Beavers for Montgomery
We could do both those deals. There is room in the outfield now and also later because I think Walker goes to 1b after Goldschmidt retires.
Alek Thomas yes I like him too. And Jud Fabian. Lefty outfielder is a better fit I think
I’m not sure Beavers cost. I think would cost more.
I’m sure fletcher can be had. If they are interested.
The Orioles have too many outfielders just like the Diamondbacks do. Those are the teams for center field help which I see as the second need behind of course pitching.
Ready for some trades.
I like Beavers as well.
Not sure they make that kinda move given cost.
So, losing Yadi and Pujols in the off-season has nothing to do with this rudderless ship? Yadi had the trust of every pitcher, which is now gone. Should have went all-in for Murphy or else see what Herrera had to offer full time behind the dish. Contreras signing was awful.
Pujols and Yadi were strong voices in the clubhouse, who is that now? Need to buy out the Angels 10-year services contract on Pujols and then have him spend Spring Training working with hitters.
Game management also doesn’t look right with this team, Oli was a good bench coach, not quite ready for Prime Time, imo.
Should be interesting off-season. Skipping the 5 games I usually hit every year, this team is not worth the 9 hr round trip for any game.
Don’t Waino, Goldy, and Arenado run a Bible group for the whole team? It comes up a lot in the cards magazine.
Whoever the Cardinals trade, please throw in the TV announcers!
Jim Edmonds is so awful. The rest are fine. I really like Ricky Horton but he’s radio.
Ricky makes me feel very smart.
They really don’t have much that is going to net them great gains for next year in trades.
Holding on to Hicks and finding someone desperate for that last piece the way the Cubs were with Chapman may yet yield the biggest acquisition at the deadline. People who say “Oh, XYZ would never trade a prospect of that magnitude for ABC” need only look at that deal.
Yeah, because there are so many MLB teams looking to trade good, inexpensive controllable pitching….what planet is Mozeliak living on right now?
You have a 2-3 year window with Goldy and Arenado..sign FA (Snell), swap a Carlson for Lynn and have CWS pick up some salary or take DeJong back and get Scherzer.
Snell, while occasionally elite, is a hard guy to cheer for. I can’t wait for Flaherty to be gone. It would be rough to replace him with a clone in Snell. He’s not a very likeable guy and he’s unpredictable from year to year.
How does Nootbaar have more upside on a losing team than the younger Carlson?
Noot is a left-handed bat with power.
Carlson is a switch-hitter, but he has struggled against right-handed pitching. (That’s like 80-percent of the league.)
Carlson’s slugging percentage has dropped off by 60 points over the past two seasons, when it should be going in the other direction as he’s learned the league and pitchers. Carlson’s defense combined with 22 HR power is a lot more palatable with a .250 BA than Carlson with 8 HR power..
Cards should absolutely move Goldy if the price is right as well. He’d be the best bat on the market, they have a ready made 1B in Walker, or if they hate Contreras behind the plate so much he can play some first. Goldschmidt would get you the arm/s that you are looking for. The offense is not the problem. I still have no idea why Dylan Carlson has struggled for playing time or why Tommy Edman has been playing outfield. Or why Walker never played OF in the minors and they just stuck him out there. Or why Gorman is struggling for at bats. A lot of their decisions don’t seem to make sense as a whole
McCarthy Christian Walker and Ryne Nelson for Goldy and flaherty.
Cards want and need near ready major league arms. Of sat by himself wouldn’t get it done. Cards have no need for extra position players
I don’t hate the idea of trading Goldschmidt back to the DBacks. I think he would accept a trade there and I think it makes some sense.
But I don’t want any of those guys you mentioned.
Manning & Wentz for Carlson? Not enough? Throw in Madden.
I want Mize
Everybody has a plan till they get punched in the mouth. Mo’s mouth has been writing NSF checks for at least two seasons. The number of terrible decisions needed to fall to the worst team in one of the worst divisions in MLB history is staggering. Any more miscalculations at this deadline and offseason could bury the Redbirds for the next 5 years.
Mo is so bad at this. anyone expecting big things this trade deadline are going to be greatly disappointed. Young, MLB experienced, cost controlled, front of the rotation pitchers aren’t available. What gets moved at the deadlines are veteran pitchers having bounce back years or veterans on on expiring contracts in the next 1.5 years. The other group is players who aren’t likely to debut for another 1.5 years or more. So if you go after veterans your taking a risk on their age and health as we as putting yourself in the same position next year with a rotation full of 4th starters.
I 100% believe the trade deadline will expire and we will all say “that’s it?”. We will get the same explanation from Mo about potential deals but the pieces required were just to great because they are key pieces to the cardinals future plans. Because Mozaliak believes everyone should give him what he wants in his terms and is annually shocked at the other GM responses. Grossly over evaluates his capital.
If anything happens for a player in the rotation in 2024 it will be one or two of German Márquez, Domingo German, Lance Lynn, Shane. I ever, Robbie Ray, Eduardo Rodriguez, Mike Clevinger or Tarik Skubal. Expect for Skubal are FA after 2024. The most likely thing I see happening is Mo make a huge mistake and trades for a 39 year old Max Scherzer. He’s always shown he will eventually get his man crushes and the Mets need to shed payroll to get in the Ohtani sweepstakes.
Mo probably believes he can get a big fish in the FA class of the offseason, it his track record shows players don’t want to sign with him. The bell of the ball Aaron Nola probably re-signs with Philly. The others are mostly old veteran risks.
What Mo needs to do is focus on 2025. Use this off season to get high potential prospects in big A ball that can debut in 2025. Tex has a few Brock Porter, Jack Lieter and Kumar Rocker. Toronto has Ricky Tiedermann. He also needs to address the needs for 1B in 2025 and the outfield. The club has never said anything about Walker taking over first, he could be worse there then the outfield. If Walker moves, it’s another spot in the outfield to fill in addition to O’Niells spot. They need quantities and quantity of high potential boom or bust A ball player to stock the farm and hope a few reach their ceiling or can be flipped again in the next year or two.
If he thinks he can do enough to build and 2024 WS contender he is not only going to still have a bad team in 2024 but he is also going deplete what few assets he does have for the wrong return this year. that will cripple the organzation and turn a 2-3 year turn around into 7-8
Something is going on with the Cardinals pitching coaches or philosophy this year, even in the minors. Zack Thompson looked like a really good lefty bullpen piece, but he has a 9+ ERA with more walks than strikeouts since being demoted to be “stretched out.” I’m not sure Bob Gibson could’ve pitched well on today’s team. It appears to be something behind the scenes.
This feels completely wrong-headed. I’m surprised that no one has mentioned it, but how about simply extending a couple of guys. Monty & Flaherty seem like solid #3 or low-end #2 type pitchers. They aren’t old and they have had some success in the past.
If I were Mo, I’d extend both guys, go with Monty, Flaherty, Matz & Mikolas, and add the best SP I could find, outside of Ohtani. I’d bet they’d have at least a league-average ERA, depending on who they add as a FA. The position players seem pretty capable.
They are in last place with this current team. On paper it seems like they should be better, but they aren’t. Doubling down on the same roster might cost some jobs…and probably should.
Flaherty will not sign an extension. Period.
Montgomery has said he would only talk about an extension prior to the season. The Cardinals didn’t officially engage extension talks with his agent. I doubt he’s as adamant about testing free agency as Flaherty, but I wouldn’t be surprised.
If Monty is not traded over the next month, the Cardinals will give him a qualifying offer. That would give them a pick or a better opportunity to re-sign him.
Idk why Mo and Girsch get so much shade. It’s Dewitt’s money and I’m sure they would spend like drunken sailors if they were able.
That’s where you are wrong. DeWitt is a titular owner and gave Mo full control. I don’t think DeWitt would even need to be consulted unless it was something totally
Outrageous. Mo and Girsch are incentivized with profit sharing. Spending on better talent may help winning but it doesn’t increase revenue when attendance doesn’t really have much room to grow and advertising deals are already in place. So increased payroll has a negative ROI. That lowers the annual profits of the club and therefore has a negative effect on the front office bonus incentives. So Mo spending more literally takes money out of his own pocket. They only way to increase payroll is for fans to spot attending game and for tv rating to decline. That reduces gate revenue and advertising demand and therefore reduced sponsorship interest. That is then increased payroll will result in positive ROI. But it won’t happen until the fans are able to negative affect forecasted revenue, which can’t until 2025 budgeting season at the earliest.
You just made my point. That’s exactly what the Cards need, something totally Outrageous
No i didn’t. I very clearly stated DeWitt is not keeping the FO from spending more money. And while yes, they it would be great to see them do something outrageous it will never happen because there is no additional revenue to be gained. That is until the revenues start declining. but as long as attendance and viewership are flat, revenues won’t decline. Therefore, increased payroll decreases the FO salary and they aren’t going to do that.
I tend to agree. Cardinals fans shouldn’t gripe about the payroll, which is pretty sizeable for a team with this market size. I DO think Mo should be held accountable for how he spends the money however.
Aside from Pujols (who wanted to come back) and the guys our Pacific Rim scouts identifed (Mikolas, Kim, Oh), Mozeliak’s record is abysmal.
Contreras, Matz, C Dickerson, Verhagen, Wittgren, A. Miller, Gregerson, D Holland, Cecil, Fowler, Leake….
If anyone should be upset about our spending, it should be DeWitt! Mo regularly tosses his dollars out the window.
If they’re giving up on 2023 and focusing on 2024, I think the fans should do the same thing and let them not be in top 5 attendance. That would shake up the team!
Last Sundays announced attendance was 42 thousand.
Now YouTube the game and tell me what you see.
It’s not 42 thousand people in the stands. I don’t think it’s 10 thousand.
Those attendance numbers are fake.
It’s not 42,000, but not 10,000. Those are seats sold.
They can skew the numbers.
Which they do.
Seats sold is a fake statistic when they sell them at the last minute to ticket brokers.
There was not 42 thousand tickets sold last Sunday. It’s a lie to make it look more popular than it is.
Did you see the stadium? 10 thousand. Maybe.
King, I think you’re incorrect.
This team sells plenty of tickets well in advance, I know a few people with either season or partial season tickets, and I know two of them who weren’t going to see the Nationals despite having tickets. A lot of Cardinals fans expected big things from this team, and purchased tickets preseason.
The Cardinals SHOULD however be concerned by the large number of no-shows. Not only does that impact concessions and the like, but it’s a reflection of things to come. Barring exciting moves at the deadline and offseason, plenty of those “early purchases” won’t take place next year. It’s the Show Me State, and fans are gonna sit back, wait and see whether what we’re seeing now is a harbinger of things to come.
There are 20,000+ seasons via season tickets for every game. Then Cardinal tickets are the most popular find raiser tactic going right now. Every club, church, school, etc… are selling tickets to raise funds. Plus there sales for events like schools singing take me out to the ball game and god bless America then the monthly standing room only passes. And finally single game sales. It all adds up pretty quickly. May be be reflective in turn style counts, but the ticket sales are legit.
There is no event on the planet that has 42 thousand paying customers and 10 thousand show up.
Yes a few people don’t go but most of them sell their tickets or give them away to a friend who wants to go. They don’t just let the ticket go to waste. And if they do its not 30 thousand a night doing that.
The numbers are fake. People keep claiming “3 million tickets’ every year but it’s fake it has been since Albert left. I have been to over 300 games in my life I know this is a fact. How and why they do it I don’t know thats the question but the numbers are fake.
As bad as this team is, NOBODY should be untouchable! Pitching and timely hitting wins Championships,it’s really that simple. Draw walks, steal a base, bunt them to third, fly ball to the outfield. They used to call it Whitey ball but that just won Championships!
Paperstraws those ticket sales numbers are absolutely positively not legit. On the weekends usually it’s packed although last Sunday was shockingly empty. I haven’t seen a Sunday crowd like that since the early 2000s. Weekdays are the real problem though. Weekday games are maybe half full all season long.
The “best fans in baseball” never cease to amaze me. I don’t get the Carlson hate at all. By wRC+, he’s been an average hitter over his young career. That, combined with solid outfield defense (including CF), his youth, and low salary make him valuable. You people forget along the time he’s only 24. They’re plenty of examples of former top prospects taking several years to break out
Let’s hear some. Preferably multi time all stars. Then we can compare that with those that were 24 or younger.
Dansby Swanson, Javier Baez, and Ian Happ come to mind. All of them were like Carlson: good prospects pedigrees who were fine but unspectacular in their first 2-4 seasons before breaking out.
And people really overlook how decent Carlson’s career has been so far. 104wRC+, decent baserunning, and above average defense at all three OF positions is nothing to sneeze at.