The Guardians traded their most established healthy starter to the Rays yesterday, sending righty Aaron Civale to Tampa Bay in exchange for top first base prospect Kyle Manzardo. However, while many imagined that to be something of a white flag on their 2023 season, the team views things differently. President of baseball operations Chris Antonetti said following the trade last night that the Guardians could now replace Civale’s innings with an acquisition from outside the organization (link via Mandy Bell of MLB.com).
“We do believe we will be able to address that void both through our internal options and potentially maybe even with some external acquisitions … [that] might transpire between now and the end of the day tomorrow,” said Antonetti.
That may sound perplexing to some onlookers, but it’s a sensible enough approach to take. The Guardians have long been in the market for controllable offensive talent, and Manzardo is among the best pure hitting prospects in the game. He’s currently mending from a shoulder injury, but his plate discipline, at least average power and excellent bat-to-ball skills fit the Guardians’ mold. The Civale trade largely amounted to capitalizing on a thin market for controllable pitching, adding six-plus years of a young hitter who’ll help in the long run at the expense of some already shaky 2023 playoff hopes and two additional years of control over Civale.
Adding a lower-cost starter, perhaps a rental arm, to backfill the rotation could offset some of the present-day value lost by trading Civale. The Guardians are hopeful of getting Cal Quantrill back before too long and could have Shane Bieber return at some point in the season’s final month. They’ve already added one veteran, Noah Syndergaard, to help take some of the pressure off young arms like Tanner Bibee, Gavin Williams and Logan Allen. A similar acquisition could replace some of Civale’s innings — and that might be all the Guardians need to stay afloat in an awful AL Central division. Neither Minnesota nor Cleveland has stepped up and run away with the division, despite the fact that three of baseball’s six worst records are floundering below them in the standings.
While a good bit of the starting pitching expected to change hands this summer has already done so, there are still some veteran options available. Pirates lefty Rich Hill is playing on an affordable one-year deal. Cardinals righty Jack Flaherty and Tigers righty Michael Lorenzen are perhaps the two highest-profile pure rentals left on the market. The Mets would surely move old friend Carlos Carrasco as well, though he’s struggling quite a bit in 2023. Teammate Jose Quintana, signed through 2024 at $13MM per year, has also been mentioned as a possible trade candidate. The Giants have reportedly garnered interest in their pitching depth, and someone like Alex Wood could make sense to help fill out Cleveland’s rotation.
They trade a starter… and now they want a starter?
Yeah this is an odd decision…
It’s not odd at all. If Manzardo turns out to be as good as they think he can be, then it’s a no brained. You trade Civale for the #37 overall prospect and then follow that up by trading your #10 or #15 prospect in your organization for a rental like Rich Hill (who I think is who they’ll target). You replace Civale’s innings with a serviceable arm while upgrading offensively perhaps as early as next year.
People are acting like Civale is Pedro in his prime. If we keep Bieber next year, the rotation will probably be Bieber, McKenzie, Quantrill, Bibee, Williams with Allen and Civale in the mix. At best, he’s your 4th starter, but he’s most likely not even a rotation piece next year. So you trade 2.5 years of a bottom of the rotation arm for the #37 overall and 2nd best 1st base prospect. Seems like a no brained to me.
I guess that makes sense, although this is Cleveland they seem to always have a surplus of pitching, so this will work itself in the end.
Spot on mate.
Allen and civale
Except one thing…..replacing that 4th best starter at this juncture of the trade deadline is probably going to cost more than it would have a week ago…..bottom feeding at best and acquiring Hill as a rental doesn’t do anything for your rotation next year……and what will be the rotation price then?
Bieber, McKenzie, Quantrill should all hopefully be back to go with the kids. Next year’s rotation should be fine.
But that’s my point. Even if they trade Bieber I’m not convinced Civale is even in the rotation next year. They have the guys I listed above plus others in the minors. I think people are overvaluing Civale right now because he has been pitching well. However, nobody seems to mention that the only good team he’s faced in the last month has been the Rangers.
In fact, 7 of his 13 starts were against either the Al or NL Central while one other was against the A’s. The other teams faced…Seattle (twice), Boston, San Diego, and Texas. And while he still has to go out and perform (which he did), people are gawking at the stats. I really believe Cleveland was smart to sell high. We’ll see how he does in the AL East.
Civale was definitely a rotation piece. He’s been their best starter this year.
Guards are #1 or 2 in the league at developing pitchers though. They had a surplus for next season and this is what they do. They held onto Bieber for too long—-didn’t end up taking the risk this time.
Jack Flaherty is available and if Cleveland is looking for a shortstop Paul Dejong is available too.
I’m surprised neither of those two has been traded yet. Cardinals ought to move both get a nice return while they’re both performing well.
they’ve probably not moved, because no one wants to give a “nice” return. everyone knows they’re moving them, so they dint want to give anything. I’d rather them extend Flaherty tbh. as long as he doesn’t expect #1 money.
Would you have traded Tyler O’Neill for Civale and Oscar Gonzalez?
Ciper, Tyler O’Neil has no trade value. I would not trade a Civale baseball card for O’Neil.
Probably
The very last thing Cleveland needs is another shortstop. We just shipped our rental guy away because we need to give looks to Arias, Freeman, and Rocchio. Cleveland does match up very well with St Louis if they’re trying to get an outfielder, though.
Why do Cardinal fans think that Cleveland is looking for a shortstop? They traded Rosario so they could see some of the many middle infield prospects. Tyler Freeman and Gabriel Arias will get the first look. Cleveland has top 100 prospect Bryan Rocchio at AAA Columbus and more below him. Cleveland has absolutely no need for Paul DeJong.
How about Will Dion for Flaherty?
Flaherty is not Cleveland material and they don’t need up the middle infield help.
Don’t forget they also have Joey Cantillo, who’s about MLB ready and will be counted on for MLB innings next season. Tanner Burns looks like a back end or relief option to me. And Daniel Epsino ever gets right, he slots in quite nicely.
If only they had Civale. He could really be a good option in that rotation. Too bad he’s on TB
They definitely should reunite with Carrasco.
Yes PLEASE!!
I love Cookie but no thanks. How does that help? Unless the Mets give him away
Cookie helps if they are truly out of it and want to shut down their young guys who are about to hit their innings limits. That would be all of Allen, Williams, and Bibee. That was the reason they took on Thor.
If the Mets end up cutting him I can see them adding him in September for a bit of a curtain call on his career.
True, earlier this year the Orioles traded a guy to themselves
The Rangers have 2 or 3 that could be available.
Civale still has 3 years on his contract. What a weird trade that was.
The arguments in this article are stupid. Yes, acquiring a rental starter is a good idea IF it doesn’t cost you a prospect. Bit will so add that to the subtraction of the Civale trade. A cheap, controllable starter is Civale. I see them dumping Karinchak and Rocchio for a failed young starter because they way undervalue those two and, well, when you take a look at every trade/acquisition they have made since the end of 2020 they just suck.
They are not going to dump Rocchio. He will be Gimenez’s partner in the Cleveland infield next season in my opinion.
CIPERSPECTIVE, Hockeyjohn is right. Rocchio isn’t in MLB right now because they have freeman and Arias this year to give him more time to develop.
He’ll pitch maybe a year and a half of that if he’s lucky. Gets hurt way too much to rely on.
Go to baseball reference and look up comparables for Aaron Civale. Here’s are the first five on that list…
Chris Paddack
Zach Plesac
Brady Singer
Kyle Wright
Willie Jefferson
If instead you look at similar pitchers through age 27, the list is
Alan Benes
Anthony DeSclafani
Andy Porter
Zach Plesac
Nick Blackburn
Now, for those of you who don’t understand this trade, ask yourself if you would trade a top 50 prospect for any of those guys. I don’t think you would. And that’s the reason behind the trade. It’s a risk because he’s still a prospect, but does anyone think Aaron Civale is the difference between a World Series title or not? We’ve made the playoffs plenty. If we’re not winning the World Series, then what’s the point of keeping him given the potential upside of Manzardo?
baseball-reference.com/players/c/civalaa01.shtml
Agreed. He has never pitched more than 21 games a season. This was a good move my the Guards. They need bats and they can draw from their very deep farm system to provide pitching and trade pieces. If you look at who they are contorting against, the twins have done nothing to improve their team.
@Renotribefan
Just blithely spitting on a division title simply because you can’t envision winning a World Series is a loser mentality. It’s an assumption based on a falsehood: that there’s no value to the postseason if you don’t win it all, that it’s all just a colossal waste of time. I look as the crowds Cleveland has drawn this year as disputing that. But that’s not all, the chance to throw a Minnesota organization into disarray by stealing a title the Twins should win (again) has tremendous value to Cleveland’s future. The postseason experience–no matter where it leads–is tremendously beneficial to a young club. Are you saying that the 4-3 record the team had in the playoffs last year, narrowly missing the ALCS, wasn’t valuable?
Listen, I’m open to seeing what Cleveland does today to address the quality innings lost yesterday. But let’s not kid ourselves; Cleveland needed innings from another starter BEFORE dealing Civale. Now they need TWO arms, and neither will offer the quality innings and the chance to win important games that Civale did.
Please don’t lecture me and other fans as if we can’t grasp the “rationale’ of the trade. We get it; in a laboratory setting’s cold calculus, Civale isn’t all that and Manzardo MAY one day be (even though he’s unathletic, will be among the slowest players in the majors when he gets there, is redundant with what CLE already has, and possesses only 45-50 grade power that no one knows if he will ever access…oh, and did I mention hes a LHH?) but this isn’t a dispassionate, clinical setting where we analyze “values.” This is August 1st and CLE has fought its way through adversity to within one game of getting the FIRST THREE GAMES IN THE PLAYOFFS AT HOME.
To denigrate that as worthless–as your high-minded lecturing to us insists–is an insult to fans who enjoy a baseball season in Cleveland for what it always is: a David vs. Goliath situation that we know we’ll probably lose, but feel there’s always value in trying. I don’t predicate my enjoyment of baseball on the basis of whether we have a GUARANTEED World Series winner or not–who can tell the future anyway–but I remember 1997, 2007, and 2016 well, and fans like you were saying we had “no shot” then too. I always take my best shot when it’s right there in front of you because THAT’S sporting and THAT’S baseball and tomorrow is never assured.
There’s value in making the playoffs for sure. This Cleveland team can’t win as constructed though. Antonetti has some moves to make this off-season to get the lineup in order. This is a good first step for that.
@Avory
Wow dude…settle down. Lol.
I remember all of those years as well. And sure, you have to make the playoffs in order to win the World Series. But Aaron Civale is not freakin’ Pedro Martinez. We took a bit of a hit in the short term, but as you said Minnesota didn’t do anything either.
Also, I would make the argument that the “loser mentality” is the one that says making the playoffs is good enough. Remember in 95 when we had a parade for the team after we lost the World Series. That’s a loser mentality.
And just for future reference, don’t lecture people about how they shouldn’t lecture others. And don’t get so angry over a baseball rumors comment section. Whoops, sorry. Guess I’m lecturing again. 😉
Cleveland could still win the Central without much effort.
They could check in with Tampa about Civale…
I think they go Rich Hill for a lotto ticket, or possibly ask the Mets for Carrasco for a lotto ticket in exchange for Mets paying down his contract to the league min.
I don’t think they go after rich Hill… My man was cussing up his teammates on the field when he faced Cleveland a few weeks ago… He’s not really the locker room guy we want
Maybe Rich Hill could be had for a marginal prospect. He’s usually good for 4-5 innings before he gets shelled. Ideally, include Bell with some money in any trade.
Cleveland really needs another bat…perhaps they could call up Will Benson..oh no wait.
You can have Carrasco back for a bullpen arm that has a couple of years left on their contract because we don’t really need him for this year lol
How about Carrasco and Pham for Joey Castillo ?
Joey Cantillo sorry
Carrasco will always be one of my favorites but the Guardians aren’t trading Cantillo for him whether you add Pham or not
As a Guardians fan, I’m still not sure how I feel about the Civale trade but I definitely understand their logic. They sold high on Civale and presumably really wanted Manzardo, so they took this as their opportunity to get him when they might otherwise not have been able to.
If they can get a cheap starter who can provide some serviceable innings for the rest of this season, then it makes plenty of sense.
Smart move to trade for Manzardo and only give up there number 5 or 6 starter for next season. This is why Cleveland is always in the mix