3:30pm: The Guardians and Rays have both formally announced the trade. It’s a straight one-for-one swap.
2:33pm: The Rays and Guardians are in agreement on a trade sending right-hander Aaron Civale from Cleveland to Tampa Bay, reports Marc Topkin of the Tampa Bay Times. Top first base prospect Kyle Manzardo is headed back to Cleveland in the deal.
Civale, 28, is in the midst of a fine season and earning just $2.6MM with another two years of club control remaining beyond the 2023 season. The Guardians have been mulling the idea of shopping him, given their need for offense, their rich stockpile of pitching talent, and the general demand for rotation help throughout the league.
The Rays, needing rotation help with Jeffrey Springs and Drew Rasmussen falling to season-ending injuries — Tommy John surgery and flexor surgery, respectively — have been in the market for rotation help throughout the month. They previously had interest in Jordan Montgomery before his trade to the Rangers and in Cubs righty Marcus Stroman before Chicago won eight straight games and went from expected seller to potential buyer.
Civale will fill that need for the Rays, stepping into the rotation alongside Shane McClanahan, Tyler Glasnow, Zach Eflin and Taj Bradley. The Rays have been regularly deploying bullpen games and using openers since Springs and Rasmussen went down, but Civale will give them a conventional — and quite strong — five-man rotation moving forward. He’s sitting on a 2.34 ERA in 77 innings this season, and while the right-hander’s below-average 19% strikeout rate, tiny .242 average on balls in play and huge 82.7% strand rate all make that ERA seem bound for some regression, he’s nonetheless a solid big league starter.
In 433 career innings, Civale touts a 3.77 ERA, 21.1% strikeout rate, 6.1% walk rate and 42.4% ground-ball rate. While he doesn’t throw hard, averaging just 91.8 mph on his heater, Civale has long boasted excellent command, limited hard contact well enough and posted enough swinging-strikes with his versatile repertoire to find plenty of success. He uses a cutter as his primary fastball but also has a traditional four-seamer and a sinker in his quiver.
Civale’s go-to breaking pitch has been a curveball that has graded as an excellent offering throughout his career. Opponents have batted just .182/.215/.299 in the 358 times the right-hander has finished off a plate appearance with that pitch — including a .186/.205/.302 showing in 2023. A hefty 36.3% of those plate appearances have yielded a strikeout. Civale will throw very occasional sliders and changeups as well, but his curve functions as far and away his most frequent offspeed/breaking offering.
Civale is a clear upgrade to the Rays’ staff and could help them through the 2025 season, but he’s not without his own red flags and durability concerns. He’s avoided major injury and hasn’t had any surgeries, but Civale has never topped the 164 2/3 innings he pitched in the minors back in 2017 — his first full season as a professional. Since that time, he’s been on the injured list (minors and majors alike) with a litany of issues, including a lat strain, shoulder tightness, a wrist sprain, a finger sprain, forearm inflammation and an oblique strain (earlier this season).
There’s little doubting that he’s a quality performer when healthy, but Civale has only reached 100 innings in one Major League season and has only twice reached 20 starts. On the other hand, Civale’s frequent trips to the injured list have stunted his earning power in arbitration. He’s earning just $2.6MM this season, and his subsequent pair of arbitration raises will be based off that sum, which should tamp down his earnings a bit further (at least relative to other starters throughout the game).
In exchange for those two and a half seasons of affordable control, the Rays will part with one of the top bats in their system. Manzardo, 23, was Tampa Bay’s second-round pick in 2021 and quickly hit his way onto top-100 prospect rankings throughout the sport. He’s had a rough go in his first run at Triple-A as a 22-year-old, hitting just .238/.342/.442 with 11 homers in 313 plate appearances. Manzardo is walking at a huge 13.4% clip, however, and has a lower-than-average 20.8% strikeout rate despite facing older and more experienced competition. He’s also just one season removed from hitting a combined .327/.426/.617 with nearly as many walks (59) as strikeouts (65) between High-A and Double-A.
Manzardo entered the season as a consensus top-100 prospect, and even with a lackluster showing in Triple-A so far he’s still quite highly touted. He ranks as the game’s No. 31 prospect at FanGraphs, No. 37 prospect at MLB.com and No. 69 at Baseball America on each publications midseason, post-draft rankings. FanGraphs’ Eric Longenhagen writes in his scouting report that “every aspect” of Manzardo’s profile at the plate is plus, with the exception of his raw power, which is closer to average. He’s lauded for keen strike zone knowledge, consistent hard contact, an all-fields approach, his bat control and a potentially plus-plus hit tool that should allow him to hit for a high average with high-end on-base percentages.
It’s not yet clear when Manzardo will get his first big league opportunity, but it won’t be immediately. He’s been on the minor league injured list since early this month with a shoulder issue, though Cleveland clearly doesn’t believe it to be a major concern. He’ll be a candidate for a call-up late in the season and certainly will have a chance to break the Opening Day roster for the Guardians in 2024.
Since Cleveland isn’t getting an immediate big leaguer in return, there’s little doubting that this move hurts their chances of squeaking out a postseason berth in 2023. The American League Central has been the game’s most feeble division all year, and Cleveland made this trade of one of its best starters despite the fact that Shane Bieber was recently placed on the 60-day injured list and despite the fact that the Guards are only a half-game behind the Twins in the standings. That speaks volumes about how the front office views the club’s chances of faring in a potential postseason series even if they’d managed to overtake a middling and de facto first-place Twins club.
With Civale out of the picture, the Guardians’ rotation will consist of Noah Syndergaard and rookies Tanner Bibee, Gavin Williams and Logan Allen. The latter trio has all found immediate success in the Majors, and each is generally living up to his own top prospect billing. The hope for Cleveland will be that righty Cal Quantrill can return from his current bout of shoulder inflammation sooner than later. Both Bieber and right-hander Triston McKenzie are on the 60-day IL and aren’t expected back anytime soon. Depth options in Triple-A include Cody Morris, Joey Cantillo, Hunter Gaddis and Chris Vallimont — all of whom are on the 40-man roster.
The acquisition of Manzardo also has some implications for breakout Guardians star Josh Naylor, who’s turned in an excellent .308/.347/.504 slash and 15 homers this year. Naylor has spent the bulk of his time at first base, but he could well be pushed to an outfield corner whenever Manzardo is called up for his debut. Manzardo is widely regarded as a first-base-only prospect, whereas Naylor has his share of experience in the outfield. It’s possible the two could eventually split the first base and designated hitter duties, but Cleveland also has veteran Josh Bell currently playing on a two-year deal. Bell can turn down a player option for 2024 and return to free agency this winter, but his underwhelming .233/.319/.385 slash makes that feel rather unlikely.
Positional alignment to the side, the Guardians have clearly been focused on adding a controllable bat to their system for some time now, just as the Rays have been looking for some quality, affordable innings to round out the rotation behind a strong quartet. In that sense, today’s one-for-one swap fills a goal for both parties and allows each to deal from a position of depth in order to satiate that need. The Rays get the more immediate boost to their roster, but the hope among Cleveland brass is surely that Manzardo will be holding down a key spot in the lineup long after Civale would’ve otherwise reached free agency in the 2025-26 offseason.
Because it’s the Rays, this move scares me.
This! Yandy Diaz anyone….
Exactly. Teams just should not trade with the Rays. Especially the Guardians.
Teams should offer the Rays every player only to know if they want them
If they want one of your guys, you should immediately hang up and extend him
The Rays are clearly the “masters of trade”. That being said, I believe the Guardians are the next best ones at this; remember when everyone thought they were nuts, for trading a broken down Corey Kluber for RP Clase and a 4th OF?
@mlb fan
That was an excellent trade from the beginning. Anyone who was familiar with Clase knew it.
So tell me, how does Aaron Civlae fit the “broken down” category Kluber was in?
Oh yeah…masters. It’s not like they would give up years of Joe Ryan for a 40-something Nelson Cruz. Or years of German Marquez at the top of their rotation for Corey Dickerson before trading him for almost nothing.
People always want to forget when the Rays do bad things, but they do too.
Funny, despite Civale’s numbers, his stats are gonna drop like a boulder. That’s the second time MLBTR has written that today, that regression nonsense. He might, but maybe he’ll keep pitching well.
They had no 40 man room for Joe Ryan. You can argue that they kept Glassnow, Baz, Chirinos, Brujan, Josh Lowe, Patino, Aranda, Fleming, Greg Jones, Poche and others too long, but they had to lose someone.
Ty ☝️
Civale doesn’t fit that mode, nor did he say he did. He simply said the Guardians have been known to win trades also. But this looks like a good trade for both sides. Manzardo looks like a solid bat with hit over power, just like the Guardians like. Will probably need to start next year at AAA again, but should be ready next year.
@stymeedone I don’t think so. Manzardo’s AAA numbers were primarily the result of a sore shoulder, and before that his minor league slugging at 3 stops averaged around .610. That’s pretty much unprecedented, and even with the injury his slash line has been… adequate. If he’s healthy he’ll make CLE’s 2024 opening day roster.
MLB fan- thanks for bringing up 2 very painful Padre losses in Kloobs & Clase. I guess my day was going far too well, thanks for the “regression to the mean.”
This exactly. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
We needed a starter. We got a solid one with few more years of control.
@YourDreamGM I wouldn’t call Civale solid, tbh. Maxed out at 21 starts. Before 2023 his career WAR in 4 MLB seasons was a whopping 3. Had a well-deserved ERA close to 5 in 2021…
He’s the kind of pitcher you hope to get 15 league average starts in a season and you’ll be delighted to get 20 with a sub-4.00 ERA.
Isaac Paredes…
Probably just what they needed to catch the O’s.
This is the pitcher I was hoping the O’s would get. This is a big problem for Baltimore.
Was this the best they could do?
Yeah, but it’s also a Cleveland pitcher. Justin Masterson was the last SP they traded that didn’t produce at least one major league player. But the Rays trading for a Cleveland pitcher is like an immovable object vs an unstoppable force.
He will definitely finish top 5 in Cy Young voting next year now.
You spelled “win the Cy Young” wrong
This is a very good trade for both teams. Time will tell who won this trade, but I like the prospect that Guardians are getting. However, the Rays are a very smart organization they acquire a player by trade and most of the time the player become better with them.
Cleveland and Tampa are both smart and shrewd organizations. I could easily see this move working out for both parties. Manzardo has taken a small step back this year in aaa, but he has still hit pretty well. If we go back to 2022 and look at his numbers in aa they are absolutely insane. Manzardo is still really young as well compared to the average age in each step of the minors. There’s a chance he could take another step forward in his game. I think he could genuinely be a 120-130 OPS+ guy with passable defense at the less-then-hot corner. I like Civale as well! To be clear I in no way believe that he is the 2.3 ERA guy he has shown this season. If there is one thing the Rays know however is pitching! I think he could settle down and have decent couple years in the trop. It wouldn’t surprise me too much of he averages a 3.50 ERA with a FIP in the 3.76 range with a 7k per 9 rate while getting a good amount of ground balls.
Sneaky good move.
Yeah this is exactly the type of move I wanted to see the Cubs make, mid-rotation starter with several years of control.
The rays in my opinion usually always give up more present day value and get longer term value back, thus why most fans think they lose all trades on the day it’s made. They didn’t do that here. It’s not a typical rays move. If you can intelligently criticize the rays lately it’s their inability to keep their pitchers healthy. And because it that they were forced to spend some prospect capital to bring in rotation upgrades.
Traitors!!! Why would Cleveland seek out to improve the Tampa club?? Knife in the back to everyone else in the American League. Thanks a lot Cleveland !!
Fantastic addition for TB
The Guardians are….selling? Makes no sense.
No team from either central division stands a chance. Might as well
If you get into the postseason, you stand a chance. All it takes is winning a short series. Every team in the league can win a series.
Exactly. My immediate reaction is to hate this trade. Ceding the division to Minnesota is disgusting.
People who blithely just give up the chance to have three home games to start off the postseason are just lame. The AL is not full of juggernauts; every team is full of flaws. I’ll take my chances against anyone if you give me the first three games at home. Playoff experience is invaluable for a young team.
Savory: Your right about both central divisions. No wild card is coming out of the ALC. The “winner” we’ll get done and dusted in the first PO series. That’s why they should seed the top 12 teams. That would leave the ALC out, but why should a team that keeps struggling to maintain a .500 record doesn’t deserve to be in the PO.
You aren’t getting the first three games at home in the central.
Yeah you are. The 3rd division winner, which will be the Central, gets the #3 seed, which gets home field in the first round.
different sport but same concept.
the boston bruins and florida panthers think differently about this.
Every team can win a series but the goal should be winning the World Series not a wild card playoff series.
Only one team can win the World Series every year, do you think every other team should be sellers?
@TDR
Pathetic attitude. “You know, I just can’t see us winning it all, so let’s give up right now to spare the pain of trying.”
So freaking sporting of you. And it ignores the value of experience that comes with making the effort.
Fans today think they are so tough with their “realism” when all it really betrays is how weak they are.
Cardinals won it all in 2006 and had 83 wins in the regular season
True story
the 87 twins won it all. 85-77 fluke ws.
Yeah I remember 87……
Makes perfect sense. Cleveland is going to play with the roster they have and see where it goes, knowing that IL pitchers will be back and have added a bat (prospectively).
No one was going to trade for Bieber on the 60 day
Hahaha
Selling high on a guy having a career year
Perfect sense. To contend every year you have to keep reloading. They traded Kluber Clevinger Lindor Cookie Bauer etc
Just because their division is terrible doesn’t mean their team is good.
Twins should also sell.
Can’t the just plug Manzardo in to help address their terrible offence and they picked up Thor to eat up Civale’s innings.
It should’ve been Bieber because he’s more established and closer to free agency, but he’s hurt. Starting depth has been one of CLE’s strengths for a while now, so it still makes sense. It’ll be interesting to see how Manzardo makes out in the CLE organization.
If Bieber or McKenzie were healthy we wouldn’t even be having this discussion because the addition of Thor would negate the subtraction of Civale.
You are not going to get more for Civale than you will at this point. They also have three kids in the minors waiting their turn for a rotation spot. Cleveland has done this type of thing before. Clevenger was dealt mid- season even though they were looking at playoff contention.
As for Manzardo, I like this idea. There is no one in the minors close and he has the type of skill set they like. I’m sure they will push Naylor to DH when the time comes to call him up.
He’s from a weak division, has a great defense behind him, and with fast turf in TB, things may change for the worse. He can eat innings IF he can stay on the field.
Hoping for Cantillo!
They just to make life difficult for everyone else in the AL. Cleveland can go screw off. Traitors!
Good return for Cleveland
We’ll see. Cleveland also gave them Yandy Diaz and got Jake Bauers in return… Better not be same result this time! I don’t like trading with the rays
Cleveland knows arms better than bats.
Ummm, Diaz was nice but the ultimate trade with Cleveland has yet to be determined but it looks like the steal of the century. Tobias Myers for Junior Caminero will turn out to be one of the greatest trades in Rays history. This dude is an absolute stud and the future at 3B. What’s even more impressive is the Rays traded Tim Beckam to the O’s for Tobias Myers. What an amazing job in flipping the biggest draft bust of all time into possibly a cornerstone player for years to come.
Junior was 18 in rookie ball, and the Rays have him one year later in AA, more than holding his own at the plate. Amazing.
Cleveland are “Master traders”, just like the Rays.
How long till he’s on the IL?
Civale is having the best year of his career. CLE did right by selling high at the right time. God knows they need consistent run producers in that lineup. I’m all for it, and if they deal Clase, part of the return needs to be a righty-batting corner OF with power. That’s literally their only other need right now.
That’s the only other need for a team with a bad offense and a league average FIP?
Well, according to the FO that’s their only other need. Imo Straw needs to be sent down, Kwan moves to CF, and they need a solid bat in LF. RF production has been anemic, but they’re determined to piece that together within the organization. Bo Naylor is giving them production at C where they literally got none until he arrived. 2B & 3B are solid, they have rookies at SS since they dealt Rosario. Josh Naylor is solid production at 1B, but Josh Bell has been a major disappointment at 1B/DH. You’re right – they need more upgrades, but they’re clearly focused on 2024 and beyond. We all know this team wouldn’t survive the first round even if they were playing KC.
@solaris602
Kwan will never play every day CF in the major leagues. That’s obviously not going to happen.
Finally a trade. Trade deadline eve was extremely active last year. Lets hope that’s the case this year. I’d rather have 2 days of fun.
Finally a trade? Have you not been paying attention since last week?
He means finally a trade today. Did the statement about “trade deadline eve” not make that obvious?
Finally a meaningful trade where the player is not a rental! I agree.
Scherzer is a not a rental.
We’ll see… Prolly join DeGrom on IL soon
Love this. AL east a powerhouse with BAL, TB, TOR
10cent: That’s why they should seed the top 12 teams. That would put more deserving teams in, like three or four from the ALE and the NLW and NLE. That way teams like the Braves and Phillies wouldn’t face each other in the first or second round.
Economics don’t work. The cubs are the only central team in the top half payroll at 12th. That would make the central teams even more of a AAAA division. Only player I can think of off the top of my head that signed a big free agent deal in the central is Correa and he got turned away from two coastal teams before he settled in Minnesota.
How did they do this with such a mediocre prospect? Lol.
Manzardo is the #37 prospect in all of baseball. Mediocre? I don’t think so.
Wil Myers was the #1 Prospect for 2 or 3 years. “Prospects” aren’t worth anything
Guardians have been making out well trading for prospects for more than a decade. I’ll trust them over you.
I concur with your logic, but I’m scared when we trade with the rays lol
I have the same concern, Bambi. That said, there are teams that think twice about trading with us, too. We have a history of making trades like this work. Think Emmanuel Clase.
LOL! You are picking one failed prospect to prove your point?
I’m not sure who you root for, but how about trading me your top four prospects for Verdugo?
“Prospects aren’t worth anything”..Houston’s Yordan Alvarez was a “prospect” who was traded and Mike Trout was also a “prospect” once. “Prospects” aren’t worth anything, until they are.
The Red Sox. How about Verdugo to SF for Luke Jackson and 2 or 3 “Prospects”? We get a closer-quality reliever, un-clog the OF,and some future help (whatever that might entail)
There’s thousands of busts. We should have traded Lavarnway, Swihart, Buccholz, etc. etc. when they had peak value in AA or their 2nd year in the bigs or whenever it was
Jackson Holliday isn’t worth anything?
Guys hit his entire life. Nothing mediocre about that. Only thing that doesn’t make him really exciting is being a 1b. Always hope he can go from a 20 hr to 30 guy.
My son played with and against Kyle growing up and I can confirm that he has hit his entire life. You could tell he was different/special in middle school.
Guardians made out like bandits on this.
Posted about Manzardo last offseason when they Rays let Choi go stating that they had their long-term 1B ready to come up in a year or so.
But the last thing Cleveland needs is YET ANOTHER LEFT HANDED BAT! Does anyone do some sort of quality control over there?
With the way the Rays burn out their pitchers within 2 years Civale will be living on the IL . Meanwhile Manzardo will have to face so many LH pitchers that hell be marginally effective as a run producer at best.
Not a terrible chance Manzardo could be a Mark Grace or Keith Hernandez type long term. Last time I checked players have 6+ years of team control before they become free agents. Him not fitting the team right this minute doesn’t mean much. As a Rays fan, can’t help but feel we drew the short straw here, but Manzardo was blocked.
Seems smart for both…..smart orgs.
Josh Naylor is one of 2 Guardians that can hit. Where would Manzardo play (assuming Manzardo doesn’t wash out at AAA, which appears to be my opinion on first glance)?
If Manzardo makes it to the majors in CLE and Naylor is still around at that point, I imagine one of them would DH, or they’d switch like Naylor and Bell are doing now.
Cle FO must not be looking at Naylors splits. Hits 310 at 1B, 270 as DH. I think this trade was a mistake unless it was the best offer. Cle obviously needs RH bats.
Time to trade Naylor soon if he doesn’t want a cheap extension.
Bell is signed for only one more year and is movable in the offseason if Cleveland thinks Manzardo is MLB ready. No one is blocking him
What is your rational behind predicting he will wash out in AAA?
A .240 batting average in AAA. If you want to dig deeper, he’s hit worse as the year has progressed and is limited to 1B. Useless against LHP this year as well.
I could be wrong in the future and he could hit like an MVP, but until he does, Civale has waaaay more value
Dumb. Naylor got screwed this year and should have been an Allstar. He is also playing with his brother. As for Bell he has been a bad signing batting .233 with a 16 million player option for next year. Why would anyone trade for that.
There are always change of scenery deals in the offseason. If Cleveland doesn’t wanna swap him with another struggling player then they can dangle a low level prospect and ship him to the Royals
Is this guy major league ready? They are basically tied for 1st in the division and now are sellers?
Trading from a rotation surplus is not selling. It is taking advantage of the market. They get a top slugging prospect for a starter they really don’t need.
The rotation is now lead by Tanner Bibee… What rotation surplus do the Guardians have right now?
There is no surplus currently, not even close. “A starter they don’t even need.” I’ve never read a more ridiculous comment.
If that is true, allow me to say. Welcome to your first day on the Internet. You are going to see a lot of ridiculous things here.
Bibee, Allen, Williams, Syndergaard until Bieber, McKenzie and Quantrill come back. Zack Plesac is still around but not pitching well at AAA. Hunter Gaddis and Jerad Eickhoff aren’t pitching well at AAA either
Can NEVER have enough Pitching.
Like I said, lead by Tanner Bibee. There is zero surplus here. These guys are having success early in their careers cause there is no book on them.
Cleveland had nothing like a rotation surplus as of yesterday. Now they appear to have a deficit.
Nope. Probably next year unless he turns it on in next month.
Many teams were asleep at the wheel on this one.
Manzardo is the 37 best prospect according to MLB.com
I think they need to get to updating those rankings. He’s not that good.
Kyle Manzardo is actually pretty good prospect , just struggling a bit in AAA and has been injured, He doesn’t K that much also. Last year he had an OPS over 1000 and hit 22hrs in 90 games. He can play multiple positions as well. I think it was a great trade for both teams!
He’s a 1b prospect who isn’t hitting. That’s not too exciting.
He’s been younger than the competition at every level. Probably best he has some struggle to overcome on the way up. He’ll be better for it.
You forgot the cherry on top. He’s only 22 and he hits left.
22 isn’t that young.
Hey Civales FIP is about a run higher than his FIP so I dont think he’s all that great either. I was just surprised how high Manzardo was ranked. Back end of the top 100 sounds more reasonable to me.
Masyn Winn has a better OPS he’s younger and he plays shortstop and he’s ranked behind this guy. That doesn’t add up.
No….I’ve followed him since his signing. Cleveland will love him once he’s healthy.
He hit over 1.000 OPS in his previous years in the minors. The ranking is fine.
Baseball Prospectus at 81. Valera at 60. Means nothing.
Yeah I know it doesn’t really mean anything. I just think the ranking is too high. 81 sure that makes more sense.
I’m fine trading Civale for the #81 prospect in baseball. I didn’t think we’d get anything near that.
I think it’s a fair deal. Indians have a lot of pitching. I wonder why the Guardians are selling but I think the deal is fair.
This move wouldn’t have been necessary for the Guardians if they hadn’t given Nolan Jones and Will Benson away for nothing in the off-season. Terrible judgement on which of their hitting surplus to keep and which ones to ship out.
Didn’t like the Benson trade either…
Saying Jones and Benson were traded “for nothing” basically tells you that there is nothing much knowledgeable behind this comment, just typical CLE whining and complaining.
2022 deadline it should have been, or sooner in Jones’ case.
Jones has a .601 OPS in his last 26 games, with a 32/8 K/W in 83 ABs.
Can we fire Mozeliak now please? Very tired of the slow drag, trying to be the smartest guy in the room moves.
But those AAAA ceiling guys and Roby who has stunk 2 straight season in the minors with numerous arm/shoulder injuries will help their 2024 season like SloMo said
I feel your pain Danbino. Mozeliak needs to go along with the coaching staff. They should ask Matt Holiday if he wants to manage.
Not sure if the Rays have completely soured on Manzardo or they were just desperate to bolster their rotation. This could be a rare misfire for them
Manzardo is going to be a producer. I as a Rays fan hate to see him go. Im guessing that they see Curtis Mead as a 1B more than a 3B. The positive is that with Springs and Rasmussen gone, as well as Glasnow next year, they’re going to need pitching and they’ll have Civali longer term.
I agree. As much as I liked Manzardo we needed pitching, BAD. We can figure out 1st w/Yandy, Mead or even someone like Lowe stepping in. I just hope we aren’t done, our relievers are getting burnt out and Taj is hanging on by a thread. I think at least one other pitching addition puts us back in it, because even with Civale, this American League is STACKED.
Desperate for pitching. They probably like this guy but not nearly as much a Cleveland. This was a good value trade.
Yeah, the Guardians desperately need another impactful bat to pair with JRam and Manzardo might just be that guy
Another left handed hitting infielder?! Aargh! This feels like giving up this season.
A for Tampa. They know their pitching and he isn’t a rental. Only 1 prospect reported. A 1b. Looks like a good one but not great unless power takes a step. Give Civale a thorough examination.
C for Cleveland. Not a impressive return. I like the prospect. Bat ball is great. Potential for more power. But 1b and only 1. Just a ok return.
He slugged .610 across rookie ball, high A, and AA. The power will be more than fine. That’s higher than Stanton or Alonso slugged there.
Is there something Rays know about Manzardo?!
He was not hitting too well prior to injury in AAA
Look at his age appropriate power numbers in rookie ball, high A, and AA. Now try finding one other hitter with SLGs that good. It’s going to take you a long while.
Why do people view trades as one team trying to trick the other into taking less than the player they’re getting back in return. Trades are about value for value. TB felt they needed another starter and were willing to trade a highly rated prospect to get it. Sometimes it’s really that simple.
Nah–they’re about legal swindles. If they weren’t, the Guardians would go 59-103 every year.
Manzardo had Mono early in the season and is currently out with a sore shoulder, Both could affect his numbers.
I dont understand why Cashman is doing nothing. There has been chances to get bats at a cheap price. Now the market is drying up and the Yankees will be left with nothing. I know this isn’t a popular opinion but I am not impressed with the American League at all. I think with a little help the Yankees could have contended for the AL pennant. But instead they chose to do nothing. Hal Jr and Cashman have really screwed this team up.
At the risk of kicking you while you’re down
It’s only going to get worse before it gets better unless they spend Cohen money to dig themselves out of the skill deficit they’re in
Cole Stanton and Judge are going to be another year older, all have peaked and are going to decline. The farm isn’t what Yanks fans think it is
Buckle up for some hard times.
Im not gonna lose no sleep over it believe me. But if somehow the Yankees do make a move at the last second you might be the one singing the blues my friend.
It’s baffling. They have a hole in LF, and even Daniel Vogelbach on the Mets would be an improvement at DH on Stanton against RHP.
Oreos need to do something. Quick, call Scott Harris.
This is another move (Robertson the other) where they could easily traded a better piece without really hurting them. TB and Toronto have gotten better
Naylor would look better as a LH DH than Belt does in Toronto
He next to go?
Naylor Brothers for Kirk Martinez and a Lotto ticket?
You Jays fans are as bad as Yankees fans in wanting something for nothing.
Guardians fans who miscalculate their own talent has no right to question Jays fan. Although that Naylor proposal was a bad one, Naylor’s aren’t that great and they can toil in the AL Central where even the dead can win the division.
Maybe the Guards could package Josh Naylor, Bibbe and Clase to Toronto for Kirk and a few nice throw ins.
Jose Ramirez for Daulton Varsho who says no
The Nayor Brothers are going nowhere.
Damn, I wanted Civale on the Mets especially they would’ve had him for another 2 years
jvent: The Mets seem to be sellers, not buyers. I doubt Cohen dumped Scherzer to recoup some money. I don’t really know what Cohen is doing. It seems like he doesn’t know what areas to improve and which players to trade to get what his team needs.
I’m not familiar with Civales work or potential. Contract situation obviously great for a team like the Rays.
I’ve struggled to find a pitcher that makes sense for the my reds. Looks like the prospect is in the 60s so reds could easily have topped with Arroyo, maybe collier.
Would this guy have been worth it?
Civale has had injury issues the past couple years. Prior to his injury in 2021, he was looking like an ace (was having a better season than Shane Bieber before he was injured) and has had difficulty staying healthy since. If he returns close to his form prior to injury, then the Rays may have a steal here (not sure about their prospect).
Civale dominated KC twice, Oakland and the ChiSox. He will be welcomed in the AL East promptly.
I’d be surprised if the kid GM actually picked up the phone and found out.
Civale has a 2.34 ERA and has accumulated a 2.7 Wins Above Replacement stat on the season.
He’s also Young, Good, and CHEAP and has a few more years of Control. I don’t get this Trade, from a Cleveland perspective.
Civale is the type of Player that Smaller market Teams need to hang onto, and not trade away, No ?
They also have a good chance at Winning their Division, only a half game out. I just don’t get it. Admittingly, I don’t follow the Guardians that much but on paper its confusing. .
That ERA is largely a mirage. He’s average to slightly better than average pitcher.
Average K rate
Average BB rate
Super low BABIP
HIgh strand rate
Low BABIP is also indicative of a weak contact pitcher. Can be deceiving.
@filihook Good comment–and not to mention a career high EV in 2023.
@GangGreen23
Nah, your instincts are correct for all the reasons you’ve stated. I hope CLE has some evil genius up its sleeve, but this looks too cute by half. Punting away the division by trading away a guy that fits their budget and current needs plus control is wrongheaded. It speaks volumes of the faith they have in their current club, but speaks more to their lack of faith that Civale can remain a force or healthy. I guess they know more than I do, but his injuries are more of the freakish variety than anything, and elite spin rates with control (on breaking pitches!) aren’t easy to find and are a nice contrast to the rest of staff’s profile. Kicking away a chance to get the first three games at home doesn’t sit will with me. Unless CLE finds a way to patch this rotation, that’s what they’re doing.
I like the trade for CLE in the abstract, given how Civale is generally overrated and Manzardo’s power through AA is almost unprecedented, but I’m baffled by CLE’s rationale for the deal during the 2023 season, given they’re one game out of the division race and don’t exactly have a wealth of MLB-ready SP to finish out the year.
The timing sucks, there’s no two ways around it.
GangGreen: It does seem odd that, with McKenzie and Bieber out, Cleveland would get rid of a valuable starter. I understand they got a good player in return, but if they’re playing to win the division this season, They needed Civale.
@avenger65 Your assessment is entirely too reasonable. Sure you’re in the right place? 🙂
Aj Preller and Jerry Dipoto are quiet…….tooo quiet.
Tiedemann Martinez and 2 low level guys for Soto.
I’m willing it into existence
Throw in Varsho too.
Good deal both ways. The Rays will push Civale to the next level and Manzardo looks solid.
Will be surprised if Josh bell on Cleveland next year. I thought good signing at time but hasn’t worked out
He has a player option for $16m. What, Cleveland is just going to release him? Who even wants him?
Will trade him and eat some salary
Riiiight. Please name me the last time Cleveland “ate salary.” It will be the only time.
CLE’s big FA signing and look what it got them.
I’m sure they’d take a bag of week old trash for Bell if it was offered……as long as the receiving team assumes his contract AND player option. Any team that feels like Josh Bell can help them in any way is blinded by desperation.
Okay… but then why bother trading for Syndergaard?
Cleveland didn’t trade FOR Syndergaard, he was GIVEN to Cleveland as part of an off-load of Rosario to some place beneficial for Amed.
Werid move from Cleveland’s side
I dont’ really think they have pitching to spare (they just traded for Syndergaard afterall), but I get them trading pitching for hitting since they have even less hitting. But, they didn’t get a major league hitter.
They definitely just made the major league team worse. Are they conceeding? Doesn’t seem like thats the best course of action.
Manzardi, Valera and DeLauter all offer promise of mad power. But promise is just that. These guys can jut as easily be Bo Mills and matt la porta.
So who replaces Civale in the rotation? Gaddis, maybe?
Return seems light for Cleveland.
Agreed
And they made they major league team worse, which is weird since they are very much in contention
Os missed out again. Just gonna watch Toronto and Tampa improve around them.
Another one bites the dust.
If this is all that Cleveland got for Civale, it makes no sense. One thing the Guardians did not need was a left handed 1B prospect. Heck, they didn’t need a LH batter at any position. Cleveland has been one of the worst offensive teams in baseball vs lefties for the past three years
They have Naylor and Bell. Neither are going anywhere. Naylor hopefully is long term, and no way that Bell is not gonna exercise his $16 mil player option.
The Guardians FO just sold out this year and maybe next for a prospect that can’t help them until 2025.
@CATS44
My sentiments exactly, Cats, I’m completely mystified and chagrined by this move. If it’s not in tandem with something that clarifies it, it certainly imperils this season for sure (if not torpedoes it altogether) and calls into question next year’s depth as well. I was against trading Civale for anyone at this juncture, but at least other rumors indicated OF prospects of note. Manzardo appears to be just another question mark for some unknowable future.
Drop me a line if you’re going to be my way (NC) anytime soon. Was in Massilon recently myself.
Isn’t Manzardo a rather light return for a pitcher like Civale? Some rental pitchers, who had a worse year than him, fetched top 100 prospects as well.
Gruß,
BSHH
I, for one, am pretty happy with this deal. Civale’s value is maxing out this year. He is hurt a lot. Look, he is a decent #3 pitcher or so when he’s healthy, but people are acting like he’s an ace. Yes, he’s having a good year. Can you say recency bias?
I don’t wish him badly. He probably is excited going to Tampa, but this is not a deal for this year. Hopefully, Manzardo will be in our lineup for years after Civale has left the Rays as a free agent.
I’d agree in the abstract, but it reeks of punting on the 2023 season when CLE is very much alive. Unless the FO surprises us in the next 24 hours, the players will be talking and they won’t be happy.
Yeah, it would be one thing arguing the merits of such a trade in the offseason, but Tampa probably doesn’t make it then. Cleveland might be justified in pursuing such a deal over the winter, but now? Not so much. In fact, it’s pretty indefensible to the team and fan base when you’re tied for first in the loss column and are already bereft of SP options.
You can be pleased knowing how rosy 2025 and 2026 are gonna turn out, but I’m disgusted we’re ceding the division to the Twins. I’m sure Jose Ramirez and Josh Naylor are just thrilled they busted their butts only to be told, “Nah, we’re running up the white flags, gentlemen, thanks for your efforts, now get ready for next year.”
Cleveland sold high—let’s see if that works for them. But even so they got a 1Bman with a sore shoulder putting up an awful year (by his standards) at AAA. OTOH he’s 22 in AAA and even his down year is .238/.342/.442/.783.
Civale’s a bit overrated. Career year in 2023. Just 5.7 WAR, career, in 5 seasons. Deserved his 4.83 ERA in 2021. Never pitched more than 21 starts or 124 innings. His K rate is a career low in 2023, just 6.8 per 9. ERA and FIP around 4.35 from 2020-2022. Everything hinges on whether his HR allowed rate this season is luck, or a newfound ability to suppress the long ball, but he’s giving up a record high for him in fly balls, and a record high in EV.
Only the Rays know for sure.
Like the trade for the rays…two more years of control and his salary shouldn’t increase too much via arbitration. Really wanted Montgomery but considering what teams were giving up for rentals I like it. He isn’t gonna replace glasnow next year but with guys coming back he’s a nice #4-#5. Don’t forget, if he’s remotely close to his career era over the next two years they can always flip him for prospects.
Manzardo sounds like a bad guy that fights He-Man
Before he joins the Guardians, he’s changing his name to Personzardo to meet Dolan’s woke requirements.
Personzardo in Cleveland
Just remember how many times Civale has been injured throughout his career
How many elbow surgeries? How many shoulder surgeries? How many surgeries of any kind?
None.
It’s a rationalization.
No. It’s a fact.
That’s what a rationalization is, sir. Using facts but mischaracterizing them to justify a conclusion lacking in merit.
He was on the IL four times in two years. That was a huge part of them trading Civale. They have a great track record of trading starting pitchers.
He has thrown 100 innings only once in his career and has never qualified for the ERA title because of injuries.
I love this trade for Cleveland. Civale can’t keep up at this level. People need to understand this is the way Cleveland stays competitive even during rebuilds. Keeping Civale and trading away our depth to likely be cut down in the 1st round of playoffs is not smart. Sell high, stay young, grab a few top prospects that will eventually make that 1st or 2nd round win attainable. We cannot afford to go half in on a team that is struggling to stay at .500 only to be followed by 5 years of losing baseball and empty seats. That’s how small market teams get sold.
@mlbgeek
Ah, such high-minded pontification.
You probably were saying this at the deadline last year, urging Cleveland to make trades “because they weren’t going anywhere.”
Instead, they won the division by double digits and went 4-3 in the postseason with the youngest team in the game, and were heavily favored to repeat.
Since when is this “team that is struggling to stay at .500” about ready to be “followed by 5 years of losing baseball and empty seats”? What the heck are you talking about?
This trade was wholly unnecessary to guarantee anything except a diminished chance to do well THIS year when the team is essentially TIED for first place. This trade certainly guarantees NOTHING for the future.
Please, take your high-minded rationalizations and nonsensical justifications elsewhere. The last thing Cleveland needed was another left-handed hitting anything, much less a first baseman, and a bat that isn’t ready to help NOW.
You may be tickled we ran up the white flag, but I certainly am not.
Cleveland actively goes out of their way to make their team worse in the middle of a pennant race.
In other news, shocking new research suggests that water is wet. More on this stunning development as it unfolds.
@explodet
They’ve never done this kind of thing before, so please don’t conflate this move with any other previous one. The sole justification for this move is a thin reed: that they believe Civale is an imminent injury risk. Other than that, this move holds no water at all. All the other trades you might be insinuating were similar were wholly justifiable for a variety of reasons. This one is stunning because it’s not.
Kluber, Lindor, Carrasco, and Clevinger are just a few examples of the guys they’ve traded away in the last few years to try to lose the division when they were favorites or actively winning the division at the time of trade.
But yeah, you’re right, NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE lol.
Explodet…In all of the trades you mentioned, Cleveland got immediate MLB production in return…plus prospect capital that fit organizational needs.
In this one, they got neither.
In those trades, they moved expensive pitchers with limited control remaining.
In this one, they did not.
As a Guardian fan if we had to trade Civale I’d want a young power hitting outfielder that has shown he can hit Major League pitching not a prospect in Triple A on the DL or no deal.
It’s nice to want an MLB-ready power-hitting regular for a guy with a career FIP of 4.05 having a career year, but who can’t stay healthy, who maxed out at 124 innings, and whose EV this season is a career high—but that’s wholly unreasonable.
This is a great need for need trade. The Rays get their 5th starter and the Guardians get the #2 first base prospect in baseball to shore up a major power deficit on offense.
Great job selling high on Civale by Cleveland to get a clear top 50 prospect.
@dankyank
Yeah, except for one tiny, itty-bitty little thing…the kid doesn’t actually hit for power.
The 1.000+ OPS he produced in 2021 and 2022 say otherwise. The team has promoted Manzardo aggressively since the 2021 and he’s still holding his own in AAA, if not dominating.
He has 45-50 grade power. Josh Naylor has 70. Please don’t sell me that Manzardo is a masher, because he’s not. He may be a very good hitter (MLBTR called him a “4 inches shorter LHH version of Rhys Hoskins”…oooh, I’m shaking in my boots!) but I doubt he’s scaring AL Central foes.
There is no scouting report that has given him a 45 grade for power. In fact, they all note he’s likely to fill out physically and add additional power. In any event, the skill plays up because of his barrel rate.
Fangraphs has him 45-50, which is FAR more reputable than MLB Pipeline.
Great trade for both sides. Rays get a #4 or #5 starter with 2 years control left while the Guardians get a young power bat that they lack in their upper minor league system/major league team.
@fljay73
“Young power bat,” eh? Might want to check that out.
Gioloto got two top 100 prospects, and is a free agent. Figured Civale would get at least two and a lottery ticket especially since he has two years of control left.
You think Civale is better than Gioloto?
I don’t think he’s better but I’d much rather have 2.5 years of him for cheaper than half a season of Gioloto. Civale will still have trade value after this year, Gioloto won’t.
Are you saying that in December of last year that if we made this trade that you would have thought we didn’t get enough? People are treating Civale as though he is gold because he has two years left before he becomes a free agent.
Last year he had a near 5.00 ERA and his FIP has been over 4.00 several times. He has only thrown over 100 innings ONCE in his career.
Look, I like Aaron and was happy to have him on the team. I wish him the best, but to say this is anything but a win for Cleveland is an exaggeration.
…what I’m saying is that Gioloto is gone after this year. Rays need about 500 starting pitchers to get through a season. If Civale is remotely close to his career average a year or two from now, rays will just flip him to another team and recoup a prospect or two. We’ve already seen how much teams are willing to give up for a rental. I’m not crapping on the guardians return, I’m simply stating to me 2.5 years of Civale is more valuable than a couple months of Gioloto.
I’m a year or two, ccahoe, Civale will be on the IL.
Chris archer was traded for meadows, and glasnow he had a couple years of control, and it was years ago just saying someone should’ve had a better offer if they waited.
Chris Archer was a better pitcher than Aaron Civale through their age 28 years. (That is how old Civale is). No comparison, really.
I also don’t think the Guardians could have done much better by waiting given Civale’s difficulty getting through an entire year.
Surprised Cleveland couldn’t get more than one prospect for a decent SP with 2+ years of control.
They got a consensus top 100 in mlb prospecr (top 50 on at least one list) for him. I’m sure they could have got multiple lower ranked prosects for him, but apparently they opted to bet on Manzardo being an impact bat in mlb in the relatively near future. Classic volume vs upside decision.
I like this better for the Guardians but I can’t seem to doubt the Rays because they always make sound additions. Mt concern with Civale is that his stats are all over the place year to year.
A bit of a headscratcher for the Guards. The division is in their reach.
Outside of Oakland and KC, that division is within anyone’s reach.
LOVING the return for the gaurdians
this resembles to me what the rangers did getting montgomery
the guy that the rays got will turn into mariano rivera
the guy that the guardians got will turn into a walmart greeter
You won’t be saying that as early as next year.
Would have loved to have seen him in a Red Sox uni. He’s been very solid lately.
Not sure this is good trade for the Indians.
Two smart organizations. Be interesting to see how it turns out.
Problem is this is yet another example of Cleveland not really ever trying to go for it. In an incredibly winnable division, a half game out, they trade away a starting pitcher with a 2.30 ERA for a…1B prospect in AAA. A few years back, I asked a good friend who was an Indians fans how he felt about the organization. I thought he’d be happy. He wasn’t. He shrugged. He recognized they were good business people, maximizing revenue sharing, but they created a malaise over the fanbase who knows they’re smart, but won’t ever go for the throat to try and win it all.
@LordD99
Your friend was wrong, of course. Up until now Cleveland has punched way above its weight class by doing the right thing and spending its revenues properly to maximize its opportunities. That your friend didn’t appreciate organizational excellence is his fault.
Having said that, this IS a stunning move because it’s basically telling the fans and the team that trying to win this division is a colossal waste of time. Which is unfortunate given how beneficial last year was and how much more energized the fan base has been as a result. The crowds have been good and despite the struggles this year, the race has been as fun as it has been frustrating. Just ceding the division to Minnesota is incredibly disappointing.
@nurse. I bought a PSA 10 grade Laporta Rookie card years ago. It’s virtually worthless now.
I bought a Mike Trout rookie card a while back. It is worth more now. What is your point?
BTW, we got Michael Brantley in that same trade. I notice you didn’t mention him.
Baltimore got outbid, so cue the Blackburn to Orioles announcement. Not that he’s even as good as civale, but Baltimore’s gotta baltimore
Kyle Manzardo, that’s a good get for Cleveland. I know 1B are easier to find; but I really like this kid.
Underwhelming return.
The Ray’s rob a team again!
Seems like the Guardians are giving up when they are only a half game back.
Under normal circumstances, this seems like a good return for Civale. He is a pretty solid 3rd or 4th starter under team control. He’s had some issues with consistency and staying healthy. Getting a position player ranked in the top-50 and is playing in the upper minors seems pretty good.
Based on all the injuries to their rotation and how close they are to the division lead.. it is a strange move to trade your only healthy/productive veteran starter for a prospect.
The glaring need is for a RH bat that can play in the OF. A defensively limited 1B with a lefty bat seems like an odd fit.. especially since they have Naylor playing first.
But its not a need for need trade.
The Guardians are overloaded with left hand bats, esp ones that play a corner position. They are so overloaded that they recently gave two of them away in Nolan Jones and Wil Benson.
But to make it worse, Manzardo only plays 1B, a position held long term by a very good first baseman long term. Naylors severe ankle injury two years ago precludes him from playing anywhere else, except in an emergency.
The Guardians also have Josh Bell, who holds all the cards with a $16 mil player option for next year. Since the trade deadline last year, covering 600 plate appearances, Bell has been 11% worse than the average MLB hitter. How many GMs do you think are drooling over the idea of acquiring Bell, and paying him $16 mil next year?
Standing alone as a prospect, Manzardo is my kind of hitting prospect…consistent contact hitter, who consistently hits the ball hard, and also knows the strike zone. But he doesn’t fill a need in Cleveland, and presently there is absolutely nowhere for him to play in Cleveland.
On the other hand, Civale is a much better pitcher than most give him credit…when healthy. Health is the only question, admittedly. Look closer than his overall career numbers. When he has been healthy…not trying to pitch hurt or ramping back up after an IL stint…his career ERA is right around 3.30.
Unless there is another move by Cleveland that is somehow attached to this trade, I see it this way…
Huge loss for Cleveland this year. Big loss next year. Perhaps a break even in 2025.
Huge gain for Tampa…if Civale stays healthy. Big gain next year…if he stays healthy. Perhaps a gain in 2025…if he stays healthy.
Given that Manzardo holds no baseball value to Cleveland for two years, even health problems would leave this a break even trade for both teams.
Just excellent CATS, sums it up perfectly. Heck, even our top draft pick this year profiles more as a LHH firstbaseman than anything else.
I sure hope Chernoff has something up his sleeve Tuesday to somehow make up for this and actually cause the clubhouse to feel like the brain trust believes in them.
Syndergaard gave up a lot of LONG fly balls tonight, but he at least looked like a guy who can give us a bunch of 4.50 ERA innings the rest of the way.
If Antonetti-Chernoff don’t have a big (positive) move tomorrow, I will be livid.
Since the end of last season, they have traded Jones, Benson, Miller, Rosario, and Civale…and have recieved only two months of Syndegaard to show for it.. in a year in which they were set up to go for it. As for beefing up the upper levels of the farm system, all they have to show for it are Manzardo and Brito…both of which are duplicates of what Cleveland already has, neither of which have a path to playing next year.
Syndegaard had the grand total of two swings and misses vs Houston. He got killed by everything but the scoreboard. Four fly balls to the wall and three line drives right at infielders. Straw and Ramirez also made fine plays that kept runs from scoring.
The only thing encouraging by Syndergaard’s outing were hitters so anxious to take their hacks that they kept Noah’s pitch count low! That’s one way to fill frames.
I couldn’t agree more with you that there has to be something else to this deadline otherwise it makes no sense. The timing is terrible and the fit mystifying. Arguing value is for the lab; we’re talking a real world application here and it’s a fail.
I don’t often agree with Dennis Manoloff, but he has consistently asserted that winning the division has significant value and I agree with him. He was dumbfounded by the trade and tweeted this after hearing Chris Antonetti’s explanation for it:
“The easiest thing to do in sports is wrap yourself — and your fan base — in the warm, fuzzy blanket known as the future. Because the sports future, by definition, is the great unknown….and there never is any accountability for it. The sports future is unblemished and undefeated.”
I am not, and never have been one to sacrifice the future for a last gasp at the present. But this isn’t a last gasp; this is a team one game out of first on August 1st. I don’t make a “value trade” now. I never sacrifice a tangible present for some uncertain future.
You’re right, there better be more to balance this or I’ll be livid right along with you. But the way things have gone for this front office lately, I’m a little frightened of the “more” too.
I’ve been around a while, and I can’t think of another Cleveland team that was as ready to make the move from promising youngsters to monster contender.
90 win season with an extremely young roster…strong rotation and bullpen with depth… a true superstar signed long term…and a top three farm system.
The situation screamed for two productive, young MLB bats…and there were so many top 100 prospects in the system that the means were there to acquire whatever was needed. Plus the money from a new minority owner.
But the front office sat on its hands. Instead of trading assets to land Sean Murphy, they signed an injured Zunino. The team is horrible against lefties, and has been for years, but they refused to trade for a RH corner OF bat.
Now, unless another move is made, the FO has ripped the heart and soul right out of this team. Has there ever been a team in a virtual tie for a division title that traded away its best healthy (and inexpensive) starter for a prospect? Maybe, but I can’t think of one. Plus, if McKenzie goes under the knife, they may have screwed the pooch on next year, too.
I’m with you, there are no guarantees in baseball, and you can’t give away a solid chance for a home playoff series.
So the Astros’ announcer just said it. Noah Syndergaardian.
Civale post season ERA. 81.00