The Mariners have acquired Justin Turner and cash considerations from the Blue Jays, per announcements from both clubs, with outfield prospect RJ Schreck going to the Blue Jays in return. Turner was playing for the Jays at the time the trade was reported but was removed from the game.
Turner has remarkably continued to be an above-average hitter as he approaches his 40th birthday, which is in November, though he has unsurprisingly tailed off a bit from his peak. With the Dodgers from 2014 to 2022, Turner hit .296/.375/.490 for a wRC+ of 137. He signed with the Red Sox last year and slashed .276/.345/.455 for a 114 wRC+, a noticeable drop-off from his work in Los Angeles but still 14% above average.
He signed with the Jays coming into 2024, a one-year deal with a $13MM guarantee plus bonuses based on plate appearances. His offense has taken another small dip but is still decent. He is drawing walks at an 11.2% clip this year while limiting his strikeouts to a 17.2% rate. His .253/.348/.370 batting line translates to a 109 wRC+.
The Mariners are 56-51 and battling the Astros and Rangers in the American League West. Their pitching has been great this year but the offense has been a disappointment. Collectively, they are hitting .218/.300/.368 for a wRC+ of 95, which places them in the bottom third of the league. Their 27.7% strikeout rate is easily the worst in the majors. On top of those season-long struggles, they recently lost Julio Rodríguez and J.P. Crawford to the injured list.
The club has been actively trying to reconfigure the offense in recent days, acquiring Randy Arozarena from the Rays and now Turner from the Jays. Given the club’s punch-out problem, it’s perhaps not a coincidence that Turner has always been tough to strike out. He has a 15.4% strikeout rate in his career and has never been higher than 17.6% in a full season. For context, the major league average is 22.3% this year.
Turner has played all around the infield in his career but the expectations of his glovework have naturally diminished as he has pushed further into his late 30s. He has dabbled at second base in recent seasons but the Jays haven’t put him there this year. He’s still made some appearances at third base this season but only five starts, with his last regular playing time there coming in 2022. He only has 11 starts at first base this year but that might just be because Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is there most days, as Turner got into 41 games there for the Sox last season. Divish relays on X that Seattle manager Scott Servais said Turner will likely play first in Seattle more than he did in Toronto.
The Mariners recently traded Ty France to the Reds, opening up their first base spot. They’ve been using Tyler Locklear and Jason Vosler there in recent days, but now Turner could jump into that mix. The club had initially planned for Mitch Garver to be something close to an everyday DH this year but his underwhelming season has nudged him into more of a traditional backup catcher role. That means there could also be DH at-bats to be shared between Turner, Vosler and Locklear.
The Jays have been in sell mode for a while, having already flipped Yimi García, Nate Pearson and Danny Jansen in recent days. Now they have flipped Turner for Schreck, a 24-year-old who the M’s selected in the ninth-round of last year’s draft. He started this year in High-A and performed very well at the plate. In his 344 plate appearances, he drew walks at a 16.6% rate while only striking out 13.7% of the time. He also hit 12 home runs, leading to a slash of .261/.401/.464 and a 148 wRC+. On top of that, he added seven steals while playing all three outfield slots.
He then got bumped to Double-A and has a brutal slash of .143/.294/.250 there, but in a tiny sample of eight games with a .190 batting average on balls in play that is surely not sustainable. The Jays will perhaps bring him over to their own Double-A club in the coming days and hope for better help from the baseball gods.
Beyond the prospect, the Jays are likely happy to unload some of of Turner’s contract. There’s about $4.3MM left to be paid out and some part of that amount will be subtracted from the competitive balance tax calculation. The Jays are reportedly paying down $2MM in the deal.
With the trades of Turner, Jansen, García and Pearson, the Jays have made significant progress towards ducking under the tax line this year. RosterResource estimates that they are currently just under $242MM, putting them less than $5MM away from the $237MM base threshold, though the cash going to Seattle in the Turner trade should alter that calculus.
Between now and tomorrow’s deadline, they could still move rentals Yusei Kikuchi, Kevin Kiermaier and Trevor Richards. They could also consider deals for guys like Isiah Kiner-Falefa, Chad Green or Chris Bassitt, who are each making notable salaries through 2025. If they manage to reset their CBT status this year, it would mean they could pay the tax in 2025 as a “first-time” payor instead of a “third-time” payor while also having lower penalties for signing free agents that rejected qualifying offers. MLBTR explored Toronto’s CBT situation a couple of weeks ago.
Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic first reported on X that Turner was going to the Mariners. Ryan Divish of The Seattle Times first relayed that a prospect was involved that it was Schreck (X link one and two). Ronald Blum of the Associated Press reported the cash considerations.
nacb55
Good lord…
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Smash Mouth!
Justin Turner for Shrek!
New meaning to:
“Hey now, you’re an All-Star”.
sad tormented neglected mariners fan
He’s an all star in Seattle, we are gonna bat him 3rd immediately
MLB Top 100 Commenter
I figured that he would be North of France.
Pete'sView
The guy can still hit. Good move.
njbirdsfan
Fun fact: his last Toronto AB was a single off Eflin facing his fourth batter as an Oriole.
Paleobros
I don’t know about fun though
joshmorris
Definitely a fact
Blue Baron
But not significant.
I Believe We Can Win
They said fun not significant
Blue Baron
And I said not significant. Next?
I Believe We Can Win
Old man talking to himself again. You take your meds?
its_happening
He unfortunately does not.
SkenesandSlopes
But not necessary.
njbirdsfan
I might have oversold it…but it’s what you’re supposed to do at the deadline
AceKing
NO WAAAAHHHH NEXT! !!!!!!
WAAAAHHH
Ferpad
He could make it from Baltimore to Boston in time for the Mariner game. If he were to play and get a hit, then he’d join Joel Youngblood as only players to have hits for two different teams in two different cities on the same day.
gomer33
Danny Jansen who was traded to the Red Sox will play for both teams in the same game when the Jays and Red Sox resume their suspended game in August.
sad tormented neglected mariners fan
Unless the Red Sox do a crime and give him a day off
gomer33
Even on the bench I believe it still counts.
Dogham
No, it doesn’t. Playing and being on the roster are two different things. If that was the case Cal Ripken wouldn’t have had to start so many games to pass Gehrig.
gomer33
That’s why I said “I believe”. Danny doesn’t have to start the game.
letitbelowenstein
Now that’s a fun fact!
Canuckleball
He’s starting to heat up at the plate. Hopefully will help the M’s offense.
Stevil
.519/.552/.704; 261 wRC+ over his last 29 PAs (7 games).
hllywdjff
This better not be it…
Stevil
They could use another infielder that bats left-handed.
But this was a good pickup for a rental. Turner had a terrible month of May, but he’s been outstanding the rest of the year.
hllywdjff
They have too much of a backlog of old right-handed bats
Guard the Vogt
At least the Mariners are trying…
TheStevilEmpire1
Good piece to add with the injuries on that roster. I wouldn’t be surprised if this guy pulls a Julio Franco and plays 10 more years.
sad tormented neglected mariners fan
2 trades so far with the jays
Dare I say 3 times the charm and vladdy comes?
lesterdnightfly
Some fans would agree…. “They’re very trying.”
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
“Best rotation in baseball.” – Mariners fans in March
C Us Sink
“Worst lineup in baseball.” – Mariners fans in late July
sad tormented neglected mariners fan
“Best ownership” — Red Sox fans in 2018
myaccount2
“Best rotation in baseball” -Mariners fan still because it’s true
FisherSux
Nah, the M’s rotation is good – and has stayed largely healthy – but is not as good as the surface numbers. Just as the offense isn’t as bad as the surface numbers.
M’s staff on the road: 4.07 ERA (15th), .234 avg allowed (8th), 1.19 WHIP (5th) – Good, not great.
M’s bats on the road: OPS 11th, HRs 6th, Avg 22nd. Actually pretty decent.
T-Mobile makes the pitching look better than it is and the hitting worse.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
This. Never denied Mariners rotation isn’t good, they’re just not the best.
myaccount2
Those figures represent the entire staff, including RP. M’s SPs on the road have a 3.91 ERA, good for 9th in the league. M’s relievers on the road have a 4.40 ERA, 10th worst. That’s what leads to the 16th ranking (4.07 ERA combined).
The starting staff blows the relief corps out of the water.
myaccount2
The thing about his numbers is they represent the entire staff. The starting rotation far outpaces the relief corps on the road with a 3.91 ERA (9th in MLB) vs. 4.40 ERA (20th in MLB) which leads to a middling ranking (16th combined).
The rotation is 9th on the road, 1st at home, 1st overall. They’re 10th in SLG, 6th in avg on the road. The staff was built to play at T-Mobile but ended up being top-notch on the road, too.
HalosHeavenJJ
That’s one heck of a rotation. Definitely division champion level rotation and with a very nice bullpen behind hit.
Unfortunately their lineup made the Angels staff look like the 90s Braves in July. Those 6 losses in 7 games are what is killing them.
myaccount2
Unfortunately, you are very correct. The Angels owned us in the last series. Willie Calhoun has been our daddy this season.
sad tormented neglected mariners fan
I wouldn’t be surprised if Jerry trades for Calhoun
If you can’t beat em join em
HalosHeavenJJ
FWIW I would much rather have Seattle win the West than Houston.
myaccount2
And right back at ya, JJ. Anaheim over Houston for sure.
NerdPowahh
Some may know him as Justin Turner.
Others know him as Bernie from Weekend at Bernie’s.
Blue Baron
Who knows him as that?
sad tormented neglected mariners fan
Hey! I thought rich hill was Bernie!
AlistairC
They both are! It’s like Mary-Kate and Ashley Olson playing one character on Full House. Once the shades are on it’s just an older baseball player the younger guys are hauling around saying he really wants them to start in his place tonight, but to provide the most puns and jokes MLB wanted a pitcher and position player both.
Rsox
Just in time for the Mariners series in Boston
Old York
I’d still like to see the M’s trade for Vlad Jr. They have the farm system to get him and all they’re really missing are some offensive pieces as they have a rotation that will help them through the playoffs.
thebaseballfanatic
The Jays are trading Turner because they’re waving the white flag on 2024. Trading Vlad would mean waving the white flag on 2025, which the front office has steadfastly denied to entertain.
avenger65
baseballfanatic: I think the Jays have been too reliant on Bichette and Vlad. Bichette has tanked this season, so now who do they rely on?
thebaseballfanatic
After the deadline sell-off, they will audition their younger players for the remainder of the season (eg. Horwitz, Barger, Jimenez, Berroa, Clase, Schneider, as well as some relievers) to determine which of them deserve a starting role in 2025, and which positions the $60+ MM coming off the books at season’s end should be allocated to.
Bichette will be given time to recover from his calf injury and ideally return to the calibre of player he exemplified from 2021-2023 next season.
One Bite Hotdog
Turner certainly isn’t the indicator of the white flag. At least not the way he’s been playing for the Jays.
Bluejay4life
The same front office that promised to make the Bluejays way better. Yeah that front office let’s just say all bets are off on this one. On the bright side Spencer Horowitz seams pretty legit.
JT70
The (assumed) issue though is that Toronto doesn’t want to move Vladdy or Bo. Obviously every player has a price but that price is probably too rich for any team; like I wouldn’t be surprised if Toronto asked for one of the Ms current young starting pitchers plus 2-3 prospects (with the prospect ask based off of which of the four pitchers the Blue Jays want, i.e. Kirby/Gilbert would reduce the prospect cost compared to Miller/Woo). You got to give something to get something but the cost just to convince Toronto to make a deal is probably top much.
Old York
@JT70
Could be. But, if the price tag is so high and they apparently value him so much, wouldn’t it make more sense to extend him now than wait for his walk year when they might trade him or just let him walk?
Plenty of things at play here so I’m not going to assume I know it all but Toronto needs to make a decision here. Are they wanting to build around Vlad & Bo or not? They’ll have a lot to retool in he offseason for them to be competitive again so I’m not sure what the plan is.
JT70
I think Toronto’s plan, as silly as it is, is hope their core will be better next year and make one final push for the playoffs. If they look good then they add around it and see what happens come the offseason, and if they’re bad then they trade the pending free agents to try and kickstart their rebuild. I think it’s a bad plan since this core hasn’t done much in the past 2-3 years so why would an extra year make that much of a difference since most of the core are already in their prime/past their prime (i.e. not like they’re waiting for some young stud player to hit his stride and carry them into the playoffs).
That or they might be waiting until the winter to sell. While you might get a little more value trading now as opposed to the winter, more teams might be interested which could increase the price anyway.
Old York
@JT70
I agree, I think the plan is not great. They should either be capitalizing on the market right now or in the winter.
sillywabbit
They cannot “just extend them”. It takes two to tango. The players likely want a better statistical platform season before entertaining offers.
marinersfan1977
that wouldn’t be too much! Give them Bryce Miller and 2-3 other prospects. Adding Vlad makes this team a World Series contender. It’s not like Miller was gonna start in the playoffs anyway!
TheGr8One
Lol no adding Vlad does not make this a World Series contender unless he can play 2nd/3rd and both corner OF. at the same time.
Reynaldo's
Just because you can trade for someone doesn’t make that player available to be traded.
Old York
@Reynaldo’s
That’s why I said I’d like and not that the Jays MUST trade him to the M’s.
Blue Baron
Reynaldo’s: That doesn’t make sense.
You actually can’t trade for a player unless that player is available to be traded.
I Believe We Can Win
Everyone is available for the right price.
No one is untouchable
Question isn’t are they available. They are
Question is are you willing to meet the price.
Reynaldo's
And do you have happen to work for the Blue Jays FO and know that Vlad is available?
marinersfan1977
You overwhelm Toronto with a deal they can’t refuse. Do what it takes to make them say YES. After this disgusting season, the Jays should definitely be in full re-build mode!
Reynaldo's
If you are a Mariners fan like you say you are, do you buy into the belief that Julio can be traded? There are players that are untouchable because they are the face of the franchise. Vladdy is not available just because the media says he is. There will be revolt in Toronto if he is traded.
dshires4
They aren’t comparable from a contractual standpoint.
TheGr8One
Julio can be traded unless he has a no trade clause yeah he can be. Hope that clears that up.
Blue Baron
Reynaldo’s: No such thing. Fans support a team when it wins no matter who gets traded or allowed to leave in the process.
stymeedone
Will there be a revolt when he walks?
sillywabbit
I’m an M’s fan & Believe Julio should’ve traded. One month hitting .400 skew his overall stats when he hits .211 the rest of the year. He’s is too up & down to be a true superstar. Trade him!
TheStevilEmpire1
The Jays aren’t trading Vlad Jr at the deadline. They’ll wait until the off-season so all teams can put their best offer on the table. They’ll also have more time to go over the best move for them.
Old York
@TheStevilEmpire1
Fair enough. Thank you for the reply.
marinersfan1977
NEVER SAY NEVER until the clock turns to 3pm PST on July 30th!
TheStevilEmpire1
It will never happen, unless both sides have been talking for months. And if they were talking for awhile, something would have leaked by now. Superstar with team control rarely get moved at the deadline.
St Louis and Colorado discussed an Arenado trade for a year before it happened. It wasn’t a secret either. The interested team has everything to gain by letting their interest be known. It puts eyes directly on the star player and what his wishes are. In the case of Arenado, he said he wanted out of Colorado because he felt they lied to him.
Also, it didn’t happen at the deadline.
Blue Baron
TheStevilEmpire1: And then there are trades that come together and go down out of nowhere in minutes.
That’s how the Mets got Yoenis Cespedes at the 2015 deadline.
TheStevilEmpire1
Cespedes was at the tail end of his initial international contract he originally signed with Oakland when he was traded to the Mets. He was a pure rental at the time.
Guerrero has a much higher upside than Cespedes. Guerrero hasn’t even hit his prime yet.
Blue Baron
Doesn’t matter. It’s just an example of a trade coming together quickly.
The same thing happened when they acquired Gary Carter in 1984.
TheGr8One
The flip side of that is you lose a little value because you lose this years playoff push and something I don’t think gets mentioned enough in this conversation is urgency. Agree in the offseason you have more potential partners but everyone is 0-0 at that time. The urgency of a playoff push plus the extra couple months in my opinion can get you more and at worst offsets having more potential partners.
Murphy NFLD
I’d have to believe to trade for Vladdy it would cost 2 of your top 6/7 prospects and to more top 30 guys as a framework. For me If the Ms are the 1s trading for Vladdy their catcher, Harry Ford I believe, would be the headliner. Your getting 1.5 years and 2 playoffs of a gold glove 1b, who makes contact, gets on base, has power and can play 3b in a pinch. Vlad isn’t the world beating top 10 mvp candidate every year they expected but he is a well above average bat that’s been hitting in a lineup where it’s only he and Bo. If he went to a line up with more protection he will hit better IMO
Old York
@Murphy NFLD
I’m not suggesting he’s the ultimate superstar at all, but the M’s have offense issues and, while I acknowledge they are trying to improve it, I think Vlad would put some much needed pop into that offense. M’s won’t make it far if they can’t pop the ball.
TheGr8One
If Ford is in then I’m out. Not for a year and a half I think that kid is going to do very well at a position everyone expects to underperform offensively.
sillywabbit
As an M’s fan, I don’t like that proposal unless he agreed to an extension. Too pricey for a 1.5 year rental.
Goose
This goes to show the Red Sox aren’t going to do anything else. Fedde and Turner cost nothing and they could have used both.
To paraphrase The Who: Meet the new GM, same as the old GM.
JoeBrady
I like JT well enough, but the 2 HRs since the start of May, and the 0.3 bWAR for $13M doesn’t do anything for me.
C Us Sink
Maybe a change in scenery will help a bit. Not expecting a lot though. At least Ms are doing something though.
JoeBrady
I really wanted to like him for my RS, but it just didn’t seem like enough production for basically a DH.
Acoss1331
If Turner can turn it around, it’s a great move. Mariners have already acquired Arozarena, so I do have to give them credit for trying to improve the rosr.
marinersfan1977
turn what around? He’s a veteran bat having a solid season (.301/.401/.399 over the last 30 days) and clutch postseason performer. Last year he drove in 96 runs for Boston.
Acoss1331
He was looking cooked not too long ago so my apologies had not seen his recent surge of productivity.
JoeBrady
.301/.401/.399 over the last 30 days
==========================
Using BR’s last 28 days, he has 1 HR, and a 16/4 K/W in his last 64 ABs. And he doesn’t play the field.
ayrbhoy
MsFan1977- you can also add: he strikes out less and walks more than almost everyone currently in that entire lineup. Not to mention has more big game playoff experience than anyone on the current M’s roster.
The fact is – the M’s might have already acquired the best hitter available (Arozerena) in this really strange Deadline Market. There simply might not be many impact bats moved at all in this yrs deadline.
sillywabbit
And…they didn’t waste any big prospects on rentals.
THEY LIVE!!!
All the best wishes to Justin Turner. Had wished the Dodgers would’ve brought him back.
Austin Tinney
Makes Sense, they lost ty France and they just need a couple more bats for their lineup, he can play good first base. I’m a dodger fan and I’ve always loved Justin Turner, good bat, great veteran presence, good fielder, great acquisition for the Mariners!
slimeecito
Idk what the stats say but in the 11 games he played at first he did not look good.
marinersfan1977
what happened with Ty France is not called “losing” its called winning because we’re getting better players instead of him!
Flanster
Traded for Shre(c)k? Nice!!
Reynaldo's
It’s basically getting a 2023 Ty France; we’ll take it.
KamKid
Interesting landing spot. Does he really fill a need for Seattle? I thought he’d end up somewhere where the starting lineup skewed left handed.
baseballpun
Mariners collecting all the stars of the fake 2020 World Series.
dasit
was hoping the yankees would be in on him but he probably wouldn’t agree to shave his beard
Paleobros
Any Ms fans have any inside info on the askew batters eye making it harder to hit there for some players?
lesterdnightfly
No, none of them do.
C Us Sink
See the ball, hit the ball.
TheGr8One
Actually Teoscar Hernandez said it’s the worst batters eye he’s ever seen. Team has gone through 5 different variations over the years and can’t get it right. Absolutely contributing to why hitters die here. See Jesse Winker. All star before Seattle. Deadline acquisition after Seattle. Boiled hot dog in Seattle
sillywabbit
Go look at Teoscar Hernandez’s recent comments. I predict that they’ll address the batters eye in the off season.
rickoppelt
It is looking more and more like the mariners are trying to patch up this dreadful offense with the same kind of dudes they signed in the offseason, which sure didn’t work out. I’m sure Jerry doesn’t want to trade away the farm, and I respect that… but Jerry ain’t gonna be running things much longer if this team doesn’t WIN!
marinersfan1977
you have no clue. Arozarena and Turner are major improvements. And Jerry is still trying to get one more bat. Which available bat do you think the m’s should have traded for?
C Us Sink
Jerry still may be able to pry Vlad from Toronto?
NoMoreWindowDressing
Remember what the past and current M’s owner(s) have demonstrated to their fans as being the most important factor in the franchise’s history.
Why anyone would want to be the Mariner’s GM or Manager is beyond me.
User 1939973770
i was kind of hoping the astros would trade for him. kinda starting to feel like this is the m’s year. hopefully i’m wrong
KamKid
Turner fits Minute Maid much better than T-Mobile.
Dong Drysdale
Seattle Midriners
CTS4
As a Jays fan Good Luck Justin Turner… He hustles…..
Meanwhile shapiro and useless GM atkins have squandered all of this team’s window away….. We used to have (arguably) the top 3 catchers in baseball… We are down to Kirk…..Huge fail …..
shapiro and carryon baggage atkins have got to go for Our Jays to Win again !!
Murphy NFLD
Yea I didn’t like the Varsho and Moreno trade from the get go. Varsho isn’t a bad player but with the stats he had in the desert I couldn’t see him being better up here. I really wanted Lars Nootbar, now maybe it wasn’t possible at the time but I wonder now if the Cards and jays would like a redo on that. The fact the jays traded Moreno and didn’t sign Jansen to an extension is a travesty and trading Kirk was the move after his first year but maybe GMs weren’t sold on him continuing his stats like I wasn’t.
JoeBrady
I think the issue with Varsho was TO adding KK. If you already have a GG-caliber CF, is there a need to add a 2nd one, that cannot hit?
deepseamonster32
Toronto probably just sick of Jerry pounding on the Vladdy door. “Maybe he’ll go away if we give him Turner, eh?”
C Us Sink
Just let Vlad go, and Jerry will stop calling him…lol.
StreakingBlue
Good pickup.
olmtiant
He’s a good clubhouse guy and boy I was hoping for a reunion with my RedSox.. I hope my streak continues in life of being 95% wrong when it comes to baseball players I wish we traded or traded for… we’ll see for at least two games quickly…
Sk8
Now Arozarena has lineup protection.
provoker
The Guardians finished runners-up turning down an offer of Ben Lively
GB2
El oh el
its_happening
Return for Turner seems about right. It seems the Jays believe they can contend in 2025. That means they might want to address the positions they need properly this time, rather than going for players at positions they don’t need like they’ve done in the past.
On top of that, extend Vlad. Turning 26 next years, entering “prime years”. Presumably IKF stays put, land a big OF bat. That won’t happen if Vlad isn’t extended.
bseblfevr
Great move for the team and someone who can play first!
King Floch
Interesting guy to take a shot on catching lightning in a bottle with. Solid low cost pickup for an offense that needed several upgrades with time left to also land a bigger fish.
Arte Moreno
Toronto: “We’re a contender, we’ll spend big to prove it.”
Reality: “Blue Jays suck now and forever, they are an inept organization with no identity.”
GB85
Poor trolling indeed. They certainly were a contender, making the playoffs the last three out of four years in the toughest division in baseball. Not that I’d expect anyone with the name “Arte Moreno” to know anything about playoff baseball.
Arte Moreno
They never live up to the hype or the huge payroll
lesterdnightfly
Arte Moreno would know best of all owners about a team that never lives up to the hype nor the huge payroll.
GTR
Mariners still need to add more. Turner is basically replacing what they thought Ty France was going to give them this year. One more difference maker please. Yandy Diaz?
TheGr8One
No knock on Turner but I think the Mariners “expected” more out of France than what Turner brings. They didn’t get what they expected and Turner is a fine replacement but I’d say expectations for France were higher.
Braves20
Good pick up.
dano62
M’s could complete the makeover by signing Bell to league minimum after Marlins release him…
NoSaint
Pipeline has him as the #29 of 30 in the Mariners system. Fangraphs has him outside their top 34 prospects in the “Other prospects of note” category. Seattle had to send something back to the Jays that wasn’t a bag of balls. Upside is Horwitz gets more PA’s.
BadCo
Well it’s very easy to see who is all in and who is playing tight fisted. Just my observation
GB85
I imagine Dipoto is running around in circles trying to trade for Vlad Jr, but it will take a king’s ransom to pry him away from Atkins and Shapiro.
wayneroo
Go one step further then: look at his entire career and what does he look like then? Ya know the entirety of his work, not the part you dislike.
highheat
@TheGr8One
Correct, and you can also make anyone look bad by picking the numbers you want to use.
And speaking of entirety of his work (not just the part you like/dislike), what is more consistent with his CAREER numbers: his 37 wRC+ in Mar/Apr or his 100+ wRC+ literally every other month of the season?
I find it funny that you fail to mention that his Pre-ASB wRC+ was 98, and that’s including his abysmal Mar/Apr, or that his season wRC+ is still 110 (again, including the terrible Mar/Apr) while also underperforming his peripheral stats.
TheGr8One
Ok here’s his career numbers
.256 average which has gotten worse every year since he debuted.
.787 OPS which has gotten worse every year since his debut.
Sure had a good June and July though…
highheat
BA and OPS? BA is a silly statistic strictly because of the denominator (includes Ks but completely disregards BBs), just straight OPS is a silly statistic because BA is factored in twice (being part of both OBP and SLG), and SLG is silly because it’s factoring all bases (not just extra base hits). And none of these stats consider the context of MLB as a whole.
You could measure all of the same things just going with OBP, ISO, and BABIP (which is a better statistic than BA because it’s only factoring balls in play; no Ks, BBs, or HBPs in the numerator/denominator). Another good one is wRC+, which actually does consider Park Factors and adjusts for league average.
Even with a BABIP (and BA, as you point out) lower than his career norms and lower than league average, he has an OBP above league average (due to his ~11% BB% and an elevated HBP total, which has been consistent with his career trends; the BB% and HBP rate are both WELL above average) and his ISO is also above league average (his climbed up to .188 today)
What do we call a hitter with an above average OBP and an above average ISO? If you guessed anything other than “an above average hitter” you’d be objectively wrong. And as I mentioned earlier, that’s in spite of Randy underperforming his peripherals on the year and having one of the most pitcher friendly home fields.
“Muh, batting average” is one of the worst arguments against a hitter’s quality, because it’s the stat most prone to large variation (read: more heavily influenced by luck) and OPS is one of the “lazier” metrics, because no context is given.
We’ve had blistering progression in analytics in recent history; nobody is going to take BA and OPS as your sole argument seriously.
TheGr8One
I’m willing to bet all of his advance stats are in decline as well which is truly the root of my argument. Every year he’s less than the year before.
TheGr8One
Yeah you can look if you want but other than his walk rate improving I’m right about his advance stats as well
highheat
I had been looking before even replying lol; I’m aware of those things. That being said, how far have you actually looked into the data?
You’re absolutely right about his advanced stats being diminished from the year before, but saying that “every year he’s less that the year before” is patently absurd; if you look at his Statcast page, the majority of his metrics are the second highest full season rates of his career.
Those numbers all include his 2nd worst month of his career (by 1 point of wRC+), and he’s still 232 PA shy of last season’s total; so more than enough time to nake up some of the difference. I think I understand where you’re coming from now, though, but you can correct me if I’m wrong.
You must view his 2023 numbers as the new “baseline”, whereas I view those as closer to a “perfect storm” or “career year” dynamic.
TheGr8One
I view his 2024 numbers as worse than his 2023 numbers which are worse than his 2022 numbers rinse and repeat to 2020. It’s funny a guy has 2 terrible months then 2 very solid months and everyone thinks he’s the guy who did the solid months. He’s never the guy who did the bad months even though year after year he has regressed. The regression isn’t my opinion it’s there on paper to see. Anyone arguing it would be “patently absurd”
TheGr8One
Don’t misunderstand I want him to do well he’s on my team now I just don’t see this as the great add others do. I want kids to get better as they hit the late 20’s. He’s not.
highheat
TL;DR: What you’re recognizing as overall regression, I’m recognizing as a change in process
That “2 terrible months then 2 very solid months” you’re referring to has been:
-123 terrible PAs over Mar/Apr
(37 wRC+)
-107 slightly above average PAs in May
(104 wRC+)
-192 terrific PAs over Jun/Jul
(160+ wRC+)
It’s funny how a guy has 123 terrible PAs to the point that his following 299 above average PAs are considered the aberration (even though they’re more consistent with the first 2000+ MLB PAs of his career); absolutely wild.
Of course the regression of his result oriented metrics is real; his early career offense was heavily built upon high BABIPS (like, unsustainably high), because his speed allowed him to do that.
His process oriented metrics are looking perfectly fine to this point (the only thing I’d find a bit concerning is a slight reduction in Zone contact rate); in fact, they paint the picture of hitter that’s worked towards becoming more disciplined/patient (and the gains he’s made towards increasing his BB% without significant K% degradation over the last couple of seasons are suggestive of that)
Plate discipline is great to develop at any age, but as he slowly loses foot-speed, BABIP reliance becomes less of an option on grounders; but what if he’s not trying to hit grounders?
He has raised his Launch Angle 2.5° this season and has been hitting grounders about 0.5% more frequently than his career lowest rate (so ever so slightly).
He’s also increased his Pull% to the highest rate of his career and is still impacting the ball (.188 ISO, 9.7% barrel rate, .183 xISO, and .390 xwOBACon; most all of those will increase when player pages update)
There are parts of a player’s profile that undeniably get worse as they get older (like speed/defense), but there are also parts that generally get better with more experience (like plate discipline and leveraging their power; of course there’s loss in explosiveness over time, but developing mechanical efficiency and “hitting your pitch” can offset some of that)
I’m not saying he’s a world beater, but he’s definitely an above average bat (that also has some decent wheels still)
TheGr8One
That was a lot and not gonna lie didn’t read most of it and I agree he’s an above average bat. That’s it. An above average bat doesn’t move the needle for a team that now has 2 above average bats. And an above average bat today down from and all star and falling.
highheat
All Gucci man, if you want to read how I reached my conclusion, it’s there; I’m a DBacks fan that followed through all of the lean years, so I got half-way decent at noticing promising signs in the midst of s***shows lol
I’m glad you agree he’s an above average bat, that being said: the problem with you agreeing now kind of discredits you talking about what a terrible hitter he was earlier… (just giving a hard time; I enjoyed the conversation)
Mariners fans told us how frustrating Geno would be, but here I was thinking “it can’t get that bad”; it got pretty bad for a while….
TheGr8One
He’s an above average bat because the numbers say so I can’t deny that but the numbers say he’s not climbing to be above average he’s falling into it. I see nothing in his history to think more falling isn’t coming. If he continues along his own trajectory you can take the “above” away soon. Removing the average will be shortly after.
TheGr8One
If you want to get silly technical a walk is absolutely figured into batting average. It’s not a non at bat it counts 0-0. That can absolutely be figured into batting average just because it doesn’t change it doesn’t mean it can’t be included lol
TheGr8One
And in all honestly in recent memory there hasn’t been a player I’ve loved and hated more than Geno. When he’s hot my lord. When he’s cold ohhh my lord…. lol
SadMsFan
Interesting. Middle of the order guy, we can send down Locklear, and hopefully not have to play Whiff Cream as much, and have Turner play first and DH. The less we play Whiff Cream the better…the most overpaid backup catcher in the history of the game. Such a bad deal. He’d never been paid more than $3.9 million in a season and we over value him by $8.1 million a year? A-Rod says Dumpoto is a smart baseball guy, but the Mariners did the equivalent of spending 4x more on the regular price of a markdown dairy product. And by the time they got it home, it went bad.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Who is Whiff Cream? Is that your own made up nickname for somebody ?
TheGr8One
I’m gonna take a stab and say it’s Mitch Garver since he’s the backup catcher making 12 million as referenced in the post
JoeBrady
I always find that so special. Fans will make up nicknames that no one else understands. Just a hint, but if no one has any idea which player you are talking about, why even bother posting?
TheGr8One
To be fair I knew who he was talking about because he described him pretty well in the post.
TheGr8One
How many 12 million dollar back up catchers do you think the Mariners have?
Nosferatu Zodd
Springer just got removed.
Degaz
Not an upgrade to France…and double the price
Nosferatu Zodd
First Tucker, now Springer, at this rate who gonna play 2nd game?
energel
hmm…….
yeasties
It’s been a long time, but this move feels like how Harold Baines used to get traded at trade deadlines near the end of his career… and just as inconsequential
Alexpulido7051 2
I give credit to Seattle for trying to win. Their hitting has been horrible.
ChuckyNJ
Turner may not be available for the Mariners tonight. Aircraft tracking site FlightAware.com shows all available flights from BWI to Boston delayed due to weather at BOS.
jimmertee
Good trade for both teams. I am shocked.
BannedMarlinsFanBase
Why do I get the feeling that this was a countermove to the Marlins palcing Josh Bell on waivers?
Zippy the Pinhead
Excellent move, at least on paper, for the M’s. Extensive clutch playoff experience and it allows Locklear to return to AAA where he can play every day and get his hitting stride back.
chrisjaybecker
I always think of Captain Barbosa saying, “MISTER Turner…” so Justin Turner just may make a fine Mariner of the piratical sort. Arrrr…
Arte Moreno
Blue Jays in the offseason: SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND!
Blue Jays at the trading deadline: DUMP DUMP DUMP, TRADE TRADE TRADE, GET RID OF EVERYBODY!
No identity, no direction. Vladi Jr. will be happier elsewhere.
ChuckyNJ
Springer hasn’t been traded (yet). He’s penciled in as the DH/leadoff man for the 2nd game in Baltimore, which is delayed by weather.
YourDreamGM
Perfect trade. Schreck going through the system smoothly. Turner big help. Love it for both teams.
MsFanWithPaperBag
Mariners fans: We need a legit bat
Mariners GM: How about a 39 year old who’s slightly above average cuz he had a hot week
shortstop09
Wished we could have went harder after Mountcastle
Sterlingadingadong
Probably a dumb question but, on baseball reference (NYR) is next to Justin Turner’s leagues played in. Whats NYR?
I noticed this on other players as well.
TheGr8One
Not a dumb question at all because you don’t see it a lot but you do see it a lot this time of year
Not Yet Rostered. In the process of being traded.
Hope that helps