The Cardinals do not plan on bringing veteran first baseman Paul Goldschmidt back in 2025, according to a report from The Athletic’s Katie Woo. Goldschmidt is scheduled to hit free agency this offseason, and while the club had previously been rumored to have interest in bringing him back for 2025, it now appears the club will part ways with the future Hall of Famer. For his part, Goldschmidt has made clear that he plans to continue his career into 2025.
Goldschmidt isn’t the only player expected to depart this offseason. According to Woo, it’s unlikely that any of the club’s pending free agents will return to the club next year as the club pivots towards a focus on bolstering its player development apparatus. Woo specifically noted that relievers Andrew Kittredge and Keynan Middleton are expected to land elsewhere this winter, though she emphasized it was not yet clear whether veteran starters Lance Lynn and Kyle Gibson are included in the expected exodus. St. Louis holds identical $12MM club options on the duo’s services for next year, each with a $1MM buyout.
Woo also notes that a reduction to the major league payroll could be on the horizon as the club reinvests in player development, echoing a report from USA Today’s Bob Nightengale early today that indicated the Cardinals could shop veteran right-hander Sonny Gray as they look to cut payroll. Woo did not explicitly suggest that Gray will be shopped, but did list the right-hander among a handful of veteran Cardinals players whose futures with the club could be put “into question” by a drop in payroll this winter alongside third baseman Nolan Arenado, catcher Willson Contreras, and closer Ryan Helsley. MLBTR discussed Gray’s potential trade candidacy earlier today in conjunction with Nightengale’s report, which noted the Reds as a potential suitor for the veteran’s services.
If the Cardinals are going to look at shopping Gray this winter amid an effort to reduce payroll, it’s only natural that the club could entertain offers on a number of other high-priced veterans as well. Contreras, in particular, could be a sensible candidate for the club to move this winter. The 32-year-old backstop has been nothing short of phenomenal with the bat since he joined the Cardinals prior to the 2023 campaign, slashing an impressive .263/.367/.468 (133 wRC+) in 209 games with St. Louis as he’s sustained the offense breakout he enjoyed during his final season with the Cubs in 2022.
With that being said, not everything has gone well for Contreras since he joined the club. The veteran was temporarily moved off of catcher after just six weeks in the organization, only to be reinstated as the Cubs regular catcher shortly thereafter. Per Statcast’s Fielding Run Value, Contreras was worth -3 runs behind the plate last year that was his worst figure since 2019. Those defensive struggles behind the plate led the club’s coaches to suggest Contreras move closer to the plate while catching. The strategy seems to have worked to improve his defense at the position as his FRV improved to +0 this year, but it came at a substantial cost as the veteran suffered an arm fracture that required surgery earlier this year after being struck by a swing from Mets DH J.D. Martinez.
Given the Cardinals’ concerns regarding Contreras’s defense, the $54.5MM due to him over the next three seasons, and the presence of up-and-coming youngsters Ivan Herrera and Pedro Pages ready to take on larger roles in the majors, it would hardly be a surprise if the Cardinals decided to listen to offers on the veteran catcher this offseason. Given his success at the plate over the past three years, it seems reasonable to expect that teams would have interest in the veteran’s services even if they joined in St. Louis’s suspicions regarding his defense behind the plate, as he could move to a first base or DH role fairly seamlessly if an acquiring club wanted to make such a switch. Of course, it’s also possible that there’s a club that either believes they can improve Contreras’s defense or is willing to sacrifice defensive value behind the plate in order to fit a middle-of-the-order bat into its lineup and would be happy to employ Contreras as a catcher as well.
Arenado, on the other hand, could be trickier for the club to move in the event they shop him. The 33-year-old future Hall of Famer opted in for the final five years and $144MM of his contract with the club prior to the 2023 season in a move that, at the time, was somewhat surprising. With that being said, the third baseman hasn’t looked like the MVP candidate he was earlier in his career over the two seasons since then. In 296 games with St. Louis over the past two seasons, Arenado has hit just .269/.320/.426. That’s still good for an above-average 104 wRC+ and, in conjunction with his strong but no longer elite defense at third base, has been good for 5.8 fWAR total over the past two years.
While that level of production still casts Arenado as a clearly valuable player even as he enters his mid 30s, it’s easy to imagine rival clubs balking at the idea of giving up significant prospect capital while also taking on the remaining three years and $74MM left on Arenado’s deal with the club, though it’s worth noting that the Rockies are paying down $5MM of that figure per year to reduce the total burden to just $59MM over three seasons.
Another factor that can’t be ignored is that Arenado, Contreras, and Gray all have full no-trade clauses at present, meaning any of them could block trades to any teams that they wish. That’s not necessarily always an obstacle to a trade, as players with no-trade protection will often waive those rights in the event that their teams wants to move on, but it does offer each veteran significant leverage in the event that the Cardinals look to move on from any of them. That leverage could be used to ensure they get traded to a preferred organization or in order to get additional financial incentives in exchange for waiving his no-trade clause, as Arenado did when he agreed to waive his no-trade clause to be dealt from the Rockies to the Cardinals in exchange for an additional year and $15MM added to the end of his contract.
None of those considerations apply to Helsley, who is set to go through arbitration for the third and final time this winter. He’s sure to garner a substantial raise over his $3.8MM salary from the 2024 season after a phenomenal year that’s seen the 30-year-old pitch to a 2.04 ERA (207 ERA+) with an eye-popping 38.2% strikeout rate and an MLB-best 49 saves in 66 1/3 innings of work this year. It’s the third consecutive dominant season for the righty, as he’s now posted a combined 1.83 ERA (227 ERA+) with a 2.35 FIP and 225 strikeouts and 82 saves in 167 2/3 innings of work since he broke out back in 2021.
Helsley should still come at a reasonable financial cost even after accounting for the pay bump he figures to receive this winter, and with a commitment of just one year it’s likely he could be among the most sought-after relief arms on the market this winter if the Cardinals were to make him available. With that being said, Helsley’s utter dominance this season and relatively affordable salary could mean that the Cardinals would prefer to hold onto their closer if they hope to remain competitive in 2025, particularly since he would likely be almost as valuable at the trade deadline next summer so long as he remains healthy and effective.
Circling back to Goldschmidt, the 37-year-old future Hall of Famer is now slated to become a free agent for the first time in his career come November. He’ll do some coming off the worst season of his career, having hit just .245/.301/.412 with a wRC+ of 99 in 153 games this year while setting a career high strikeout rate and a career low walk rate. That brutal platform campaign in conjunction with his age will surely keep Goldschmidt from garnering anything close to what top-of-the-class first basemen like Pete Alonso or even Christian Walker will in free agency this winter, but there’s still enough reason for optimism in his profile to imagine a club with a hole at first base giving the veteran an everyday job.
After all, he’s just two seasons removed from winning the NL MVP award with a dominant offensive performance, and it’s also worth noting that he improved as the season went on. From May 12 onward, Goldschmidt hit a respectable .262/.309/.462 with a 113 wRC+ in 491 trips to the plate. While that’s a far cry from the perennial All-Star he once was, even that level of production would be good for 13th among qualified first basemen this year, ahead of even well-regarded regulars like Ryan Mountcastle and Vinnie Pasquantino.
wrich
Why is he a lock to be in the Hall of Fame ? Don’t see it that way
Badfinger
Maybe not his first year of eligibility but I think he’ll eventually get in.
Rsox
Please tell me you are not referring to ARod as the “greatest SS of all time”?
Samuel
LOL
No…
Modern era by rotisserie league standards.
rememberthecoop
He cheated.
cah011381
Arod wasn’t even a good enough shortstop to play shortstop for the Yankees.
Johnny Devil
Would need to pay someone off to gain entry into the Hof. Nice career.
Arizonfan
Johnny please check Goldy’s stats. 5 silver slugger awards, 2 gold gloves, 2 Hank Aaron awards, good defense not passable. 290 average is pretty good these days huh.
Arizonfan
Good to hear from you again Johnny. I like the Fred McGriff comment, that’s right there with Harold Baines. I’ve seen quite a few HOFs in person and read about the rest. I don’t need to plead my case on Goldy it’s all right there for you to read.
I speak the truth
ARod would have been the better SS in NY. Jeter’s ego was to big and he refused to move even though his range was far inferior.
cah011381
Yeah, Jeter probably should have been moved off short, probably to second base, but ARod was probably going to end up at third eventually anyway.
DarrenDreifortsContract
Because he hasn’t even cracked 400 home runs.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Johnny-is-an-odd-job
Greatest SS. Honus Wagner is IN
Greatest hitter. Ty Cobb and Ted Williams are IN.
Most home runs. Bonds does have more homers than Mays and Ruth, who were the most two exciting position players to play the game.
Goldfinger, “not a HOF player, but close”.
gbs42
Darren, where is it written that you must have 400 home runs to get in the Hall of Fame?
PistolPete44
Druggie but even worse lied about it
letitbelowenstein
Bonds was a cheater and it’s sad how many people give him a ‘pass’.
DarrenDreifortsContract
When you’re a power first baseman.
vinc3nt3
That’s because “The Captain” aka Jeter was there.
User 4245925809
Caholl- he was a better SS than was Hanley Ramirez, then just about anyone was. Ask any marlins fan how brutal Hanley was. One day will have to search youtube and see if is a “highlight” reel of hanley’s infamous doubleclutching, throwing the ball away etc.. he really was atrocious, then teamed with Danny “2 step range” uggla at 2b? It was an awful Fish middle IF for years.
Chuck from Uniontown
Hall of really good
seamaholic 2
Almost 60 fWAR. There’s almost no one with that many who isn’t in. Plus he’s super popular with the media.
Samuel
“Plus he’s super popular with the media.”
Read that and palm hit forehead.
cah011381
I live in St Louis and I don’t think I’ve ever heard the guy speak.
Phyguy0880
Too bad, it matters. It shouldn’t, but it does. Albert Belle never got a fair look because he was not a nice man.
cah011381
I don’t know if he is or isn’t a nice guy. I’ve heard he is but I can honestly say I’ve never seen an interview with him. Seems like a face of the franchise type guy you’d at least hear from once in a while.
Charlie'sSinging
He was constantly out in public, serving the community, both at home and on the road. I’ve seen interviews, all good, but more importantly the service aspect and the fact I’ve never heard anything but outstanding things about his character from those who know him. He was also constantly coaching his teammates. They say he was one of the most knowledgeable baseball minds in uniform and was always seeking to find and share advantages. Definitely a positive for the team all the way around.
Longtimecoming
Samuel – Dave Kingman says it matters. 442 HR’s back in his era was a shoe in – the media hated him (and vice versa).
It is a thing even if it shouldn’t be.
chefly1
Steroids are why Belle didn’t get a look
Jabronie23
Nearly 60 career WAR, will probably finish with 400 HR’s, very good defender and base runner
rememberthecoop
He’s a lock. And I despise the Cardinals.
JoeBrady
Goldie or Votto?
cah011381
Why not both?
Johnny Devil
Didn’t finish with 400 dingers, barely broke 2000 hits, 1100 RBI ? 290 career average haaa. Barely passable defense.
Charlie'sSinging
Votto’s .920 OPS is outstanding, and will probably get him in. Goldy’s counting stats and consistency will likely get him in. Neither are overwhelming favorites, but both likely to make it.
pjmcnu
Goldy is a “very good defender”? Does he have a single Gold Glove at his non-premium position? I mean, I’m not saying he’s not good, but without GGs, it won’t move the needle for a 1B. If you meant Arenado, my apologies. His GGs will help him get in.
gbs42
punch,
It’s amazingly easy to find out Goldschmidt has 4 Gold Gloves. You could just click on his name in the article to see that info.
tangerinepony
If you don’t see why he wouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame after he retires then you’re a complete moron!!
Arizonfan
Johnny’s a moron
Johnny Devil
Johnny is a Phillies fan and Johnny has forgotten more Hof players he has seen than Arizona fan can make a legitimate case for.
Sabean Wannabe
He is in no way a lock IMO
There are approx 10 “un tainted” position players with more WAR than Goldschmidt who are not in the HOF.
It’s difficult to compare players across generations and older generations relied on traditional stats as opposed to modern stats like WAR. In recent times, Chase Utley retired with 64.5 WAR i(n fewer PAs) and only garnered 28% of the vote in his first chance at the HOF (75% needed).
If he plays a couple more years and gets 4-5 more WAR then he probably increases his chances from 50% to 60% or more.
Charlie'sSinging
Utley’s 1885 hits and 259 HRs don’t scream HOF to many. He was as good as it gets for about 5 years, but the HOF is usually looking for closer to 10 years. No knock on Utley, as he was amazing when healthy and going well, but he was rarely healthy after 09.
draker
Couldn’t agree more. Borderline at best. Almost no boldface on his Baseball Reference page. One HR/RBI title in 2013. That’s it. No championships, no MVPs. I guess if you worship at the altar of WAR he’s in. To me he was a pretty good first baseman but no better than 4-5 of his contemporaries. Doesn’t measure up in comparison to the all-time greats at the position.
Arizonfan
Darker did you even look at the stats? MVP in 2022,5 silver slugger awards, 2 Hank Aaron awards, 4 gold gloves. Maybe you and Johnny should get together and talk about how mediocre Goldy is. Wth
Charlie'sSinging
Four times in the top 3 in MVP voting. Won an MVP. Top 35 all time in MVP shares. Scroll down to the leaderboard section of baseball reference to see the accolades. They’re pretty impressive. He’s not flashy, but when it comes down to it, he’s among the best of his generation.
bucsfan0004
Took Fred McGriff forever to get in, and he was significantly better than Goldschmidt.
YankeesBleacherCreature
@bucsfan0004 Crime Dog faced significant HOF competition which wasn’t his fault. One of my fav players. Goldy not so much when he becomes eligible bc he’ll be above the pack of his peers.
gbs42
“no MVPs. I guess if you worship at the altar of WAR”
Goldschmidt won the 2022 NL MVP.
I guess if I want to have a good idea of a player’s overall value, I’ll look at his WAR. And I’ll look at other stats, too.
DarkSide830
Boldface? Leading the league in a state isn’t the mark of sustained greatness.
TheStevilEmpire1
His WAR is over 60 and he’s clearly one of the best players of his era. Both are fair indicators.
Johnny Devil
WAR what is it good for.
rolder
Lance Berkman had only 5 HoF votes.
Someone explain how Berkman is off the HoF ballot after 1 year while Goldy is a lock.
YankeesBleacherCreature
@rolder No round numbers like 2k hits nor 400 homeruns. No hardware, poor baserunner, and bad defense. One of the best switch-hitters of all-time. Berkman definitely deserved more consideration.
gbs42
rolder,
When berkman was up for election, it was an overstuffed ballot because of steroid users lingering and the Hall of Fame not allowing the number of votes per ballot to expand beyond 10.
ruckus727
I hate Berkman but he seriously got overlooked. Shocking and unacceptable he was a one and done. One of the top 5 switch hitters all time. Mantle, Rose, Murray, Chipper then you gotta start looking at his insane numbers. I don’t have it in front of me but I believe his career ops is around .900.
Enregistre
Yeah, I’ve always found it weird that MLBTR has referred to him in such matter a few times. I don’t think it’s preordained. By prior standards of Hall selection, say before 2017 or so, he wouldn’t have gotten in.
greg1
It’s hard to argue that a guy with seven ASM appearances, six SS’s and seven GG’s won’t be inducted into Cooperstown at some point.
To Ringworm’s comment below, I 100% agree. I don’t look at Goldie at a guy that will garner enough votes to get in his first year of eligibility anyway, but the Voters insistence in making players “pay their dues” by waiting on the ballot for a year or two before getting in childish and arrogant.
ih8tepaperstraws
He’ll get into the HOF. But Je’ll go in as a Diamondback.
Arizonfan
That’s why it would be good if the Dbacks got him back. Walker is leaving for the big bucks and he should. Goldy will be another player like Verlander who is still playing and going in to the HOF.
sad tormented neglected mariners fan
His stats and longevity and mvp is enough
jyosuckas
Same, what am I missing? I see a Hall of Very Above Average candidate here
gbs42
jyo,
Some players are obvious Hall of Famers, some are more debatable. I think Goldschmidt eventually will get in, but he’s certainly a debatable candidate.
Arizonfan
Gbs42,
I don’t see any debate. He should get in with all the awards that have been mentioned plenty of times now. You are part of a small group that thinks Goldy getting in is debatable.
gbs42
Arizonfan, I think he’s deserving, but obviously not everyone agrees, and I think it’s more than “a small group” that thinks his career falls short.
Arizonfan
It’s good to see that Goldy has gone from debatable to deserving. Look for Arrendondo too
Eighty Raw
Because he is Joey Votto with more hardware
good vibes only
Definitely HOF. Goldschmidt is a stud
Samuel
Yankees?
Samuel
Dodgers? (Maybe he can play 3B)
Nationals?
Cubs?
Mariners?
Any other desperate/inept FO heads/owners out there?
Big shocker!
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
Cubs have Michael Busch who should win a gold glove this year but they’ll likely snub him.
rememberthecoop
Ok come on now. I’m a Cubs fan and Busch definitely improved but he’s is no GG’er
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
He absolutely is abd should be in the running for the Gold Glove.
User 3222006999
That’s not gonna happen. But the interesting news is the Cards have 108 million committed in payroll next year and want to down size? So they’re jealous of the Pirates and Reds and want to go to cheap land? That’s 108 million with Gray and Contreras who’s the worst C in baseball. And Arenado. Those 3 are probably 90 million of it. As a Cub fan I’m LMAO. The guy wondered why I would care what the Cardinals do. Prosecution rests. I’m more interested in what Ricketts does and who should make the personnel decisions for the Cubs because it shouldn’t be Hoyer. Heck give Counsell a shot at it. It wouldn’t even cost extra.
Canuckleball
Outs Above Average NL 1b
13 Christian Walker
7 Bryce Harper
4 Matt Olsen
3 Michael Busch
DRS NL 1b
14 Matt Olsen
7 Christian Walker
6 Michael Busch
4 Bryce Harper
Total Zone Runs NL 1b
13 Matt Olsen
8 Michael Busch
7 Bryce Harper
4 Christian Walker
Matt Olsen and Christian Walker feel like the top 2. Busch and Harper can duke it out for the 3rd finalist for the Gold Glove. Busch should be in the conversation for top 3, but not the winner.
Cubs should be thrilled though. He’s a keeper for sure!
Chicken In Philly?
They do not spend money on their farm system and it’s caught up with them. Makes absolute sense to shed some salary, invest, then compete. They could sign the best three free agents and still not be World Series contenders.
User 3222006999
Gold Glove is just a popularity contest now anyways Freddie Freeman has as much a chance as anybody.
Charlie'sSinging
Nobody claimed our front office was smart, but Contreras has improved immensely at C. I know you’re mad at him, but “worst catcher in baseball” is a silly, emotional argument. Have at the Cards front office though, They’re terrible.
Charlie'sSinging
Used to be a popularity contest. It has actually gotten much better in the era of metrics.
User 3222006999
Mad at Contreras? Why? He’s your problem now. And as a c he sucks trust me. He’s 75 million dollar DH who is always hurt. Be my guest.
Charlie'sSinging
He has a +7.1 defensive WAR. You’re emotional. Calm down.
User 3222006999
It says right in the article he’s worth -3 runs behind the plate and the Cardinals still owe him 54 million for bad defense. Please learn how to read. Have no idea where you pulled that stat. Out of thin air or somewhere smellier probably .Or I think I’ll just make something up more likely.
HankAaronDidGreenies
Then why do we keep giving gold gloves to pitchers?
cah011381
Typical Cub fan response. He was the greatest thing ever when you had him, but now he sucks because he plays for the Cardinals.
User 3222006999
Typical Cards fan. Claiming something is better just because they have it now. I remember they were going to trade all their OF’s and prospects for TOR arms. That’s why they went out and signed all those Senior Citizens to pitch for them and are now already trying to bail on that already. So where are ALL those TOR arms at? Oh it didn’t work? get outta here.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Nationals sign Christian Walker.
Snakes sign Goldie and Bell to cheap one year deals.
NYCityRiddler
Catch a shave Paulie & we’ll see ya in the Bronx this Spring. Ahahaha!
vtadave
Third base?
mrperkins
Yes! Crank up The Cactus Album!!
matty kid
Hell to the F yeahyeah!
Mike56
Hate to see him go . Class guy but probably right thing to do. Hope he goes somewhere and has a chance to play in World Series before he retires
spudchukar
Katie Woo is a fairly reliable reporter, but I hope she is misinformed. Unlike most posters here, I don’t like the idea of many changes, simply because the current team is better than commenters believe. The Cards still have the best infield in Baseball. My biggest question is who could the Cards get that would make them a better team in 2025? Why mess with the best infield in Baseball. Sign Goldy to a team friendly 2 year deal, then in 2027 they can make changes.
fstop13
Best infield in baseball didn’t get them anywhere this year. And they are not looking at getting better next season necessarily. More want to cut payroll. And they could have on their roster already someone who can at least match what Goldschmidt did this year.
spudchukar
If they did, I would agree, but they don’t. Please, not Baker, he can hit ok, but that is it. He will have tough time making a difference. Some team must have a need for a right-handed DH, good guy, but redundant.
Charlie'sSinging
They weren’t by any measure approaching the best IF in baseball. A couple of years ago maybe, but not this year.
Charlie'sSinging
Baker is probably not a legit MLB starter, and Burleson tanked in the 2nd half, so they don’t have a great option at 1B.
cah011381
Um, they’re probably not going to be a better team in 2025, that’s kinda the point of shedding payroll ànd letting some of the kids play. Ideal lineup for next year…
C-Pages and Herrera
1B-Burleson and Baker
2B-Donovan, Saggese, Gorman
SS-Winn, Saggese
3B-Whoever isn’t the backup infielder, pick from Donovan, Saggese, Fermin, Gorman
OF-Nootbaar, Scott, Siani, Walker, Burleson, Koperniak, probably Donovan some
Rotation-Gibson, Mcgreevey, Pallante, Graceffo, Matz until he gets hurt, then hopefully Quinn Matthews is ready, Rom, Kloffenstein, Robberse
Bullpen- whoever is left that doesn’t make the rotation plus whoever is still around from the year
Charlie'sSinging
That’s assuming they can find trade partners for a number of guys. Not sure that will happen with the imbalanced contracts they signed. I would love to see Koperniak make the team though. All the guy does is hit, but he never gets a chance.
cah011381
Shouldn’t be hard for Arenado, Contreras, Helsley, or Gray. Mikolas, package a prospect and pay the contract if you have to, but that guy can not be here next year.
ih8tepaperstraws
Best infield in baseball? Atlanta, Houston, San Diego, Chicago Cubs, Arizona, Texas, Philly and Baltimore would like to have a chat with you.
Astros_fan_in_Aus
I nearly choked on my breakfast when I read that “best infield in baseball” comment.
Chicken In Philly?
Best infield should probably focus on defense only. If that’s the case, it’s Toronto, Cleveland, Milwaukee, LAD, and Detroit, as measured by team defensive runs saved. St. Louis is 13th, solidly middle of the pack average.
ih8tepaperstraws
If you wanted to lol at offense only they aren’t near the top of the list either.
Charlie'sSinging
I don’t think there’s any doubt she’s correct that he won’t get a QO, but I wonder if she ended it there without thinking about the fact that, if he were willing to take a bargain contract to return, they wouldn’t snag him back up. My guess is they didn’t even talk numbers, so neither side really knows right now.
cah011381
QO is somewhere in the $20 million range, which is too much and more than he gets on the open market probably. I think they’re worried he’d take it then they’re stuck with him, unless they come to some kind of gentleman’s agreement that he won’t take it if offered.
CardsFan57
Why would anyone enter that gentleman’s agreement knowing it hurts their market value?
douglasb
Best IF in baseball? Their 3b/1b combo had a combined negative WAA despite making over $60,000,000. Their primary 2b was sent to the minors for poor play.
douglasb
if he’s playing in a WS, it’s probably as a platoon player.
seamaholic 2
Will be fascinating where he ends up. Looked cooked about 2/3 of the way through the season, but then picked way up.
Charlie'sSinging
I believe he was their top every day position player in the second half from a hitting perspective. He was fantastic in the 5 hole, but every time he got on a roll, Marmol put him back in the 3 spot, where he would struggle. Would have loved to have seen what he would have done if Marmol would have just left him alone.
TeacherTim
The Cardinals need to take some of this money they’ll be saving and put it into player development. What players of consequence have they developed over the past 10 years?
cah011381
Helsley, Winn, looks like they may have made a decent starter out of Pallante, but that’s about all I can think of.
mlb fan
A real class act. I wish him well.
SupremeZeus
Goldy, Goldy, Gone!! (Steve Berthiaume voice)
Blackpink in the area
I don’t understand the need to announce this. Either he wanted too much money or didn’t think the team was going to contend or both. Not a big deal he’s old and his time has come and gone. Heck I think most Cardinals fans would tell you they were more concerned with the team overpaying him rather than leaving.
Now time to move on from Carpenter, Lynn and Gibson too. The team doesn’t need a full rebuild but it has to get back to allowing young guys the chance to be successful in the bigs, especially the pitchers. Too reliant on old bums lately.
CardsFan57
I mean that everyone over 30 needs to be moved one way or another when I say rebuild. I would also move Helsley if they can get good value back. They won’t be contenders next year anyway.
Blackpink in the area
Helsley I would try to extend but if it doesn’t work out maybe trade him. I really dont think the team is that far off. The Cubs will find a way to lose more than they should. Milwaukee seems like a fluke. Team could contend next year.
jbigz12
Milwaukee should be even better with Woodruff back. They aren’t going anywhere anytime soon. Hoskins comes off the books and they get a full season of Devin Williams.
douglasb
jbigz12: “Hoskins comes off the books”
Does he though?
cwizzy6
Pretty solid bet that Hoskins accepts the option unless he has a stellar post season, which would be great. I am okay with him getting the option as he will be another offseason removed from surgery and I think he will feel even better.
cwizzy6
Lol. A fluke. You’re a joke.
jbigz12
Yeah. I think he stays in. I thought his 2025 option was structured like what is actually the 2026 option. Don’t think he walks next year.
cah011381
They can probably get more out of Helsley than anyone they have right now. I’d definitely shop him around. Lock down closer coming off a 49 save season is hard to find.
cah011381
I’d bring Gibson back, he had a decent year and I think we need at least one reliable veteran starter for next year.
Blackpink in the area
I am ok with bringing Gibson back. But if the team wants to get younger they can simply decline the option that’s a lot easier than trading guys like Gray.
DonOsbourne
The first decision they’ve gotten right in a long, long time.
Best of luck Goldy!
screwball8
Your brewers? Your reds? Which is it!? Said my reds in the post about gray!
F ing trolls
Rsox
Muting him/her only means you can’t read their posts, not the other way around…
tangerinepony
You mad bro?????
Domingo111
I wonder if the cardinals will go into a 2-3 year rebuild. They have been OK at developing hitters (although most of those where more average than really good, a lot of those .250-.275 with solid obp and 15 homers a year guys which is the typical cards hitter that they developed a lot over the last 15 years) but their pitching development really needs to step up.
The cards for too long sticked with a control the zone, pitch to contact approach when the league moved away from that. The ban of the shift probably put the last nail into the coffin of the contact pitcher.
The cards really need to get up to speed here.
Blackpink in the area
Developing pitchers really isn’t the problem. It’s allowing them to play once they are ready. Pallante had a good 2022 and was put in the pen for 2023. Liberatore has never had a legit chance. Thompson got jerked around left and right. McGreevy just repeated AAA. So did Graceffo. Kloffenstein is ready. Guys don’t get a chance to play because there are too many old veterans around.
Domingo111
Neither of them is good though.
Pallante has a 9% k-bb% for his career and a 92 stuff+. liberatore has a 10% k-bb for his career with a 91 stuff +. Thompsons k-bb is about average at 14% but terrible stuff+ at 76. Mcgreevy, kloffenstein and graceffo all have stuff+ in the 80s. Sample is small of course but they had mediocre k rates in the minors too.
Yes, cards do have good depth in pitching in the minors and young majors but they are all the same type, those 6-7 k/9, low stuff pitch to contact guys.
They need stuff, guys who strike out 25+% and have a 110+ stuff+ is what could be good front line starters. Those young guys are basically all #6 starters and not #2 or #3 starters like they need. Good to have those for depth but they probably won’t be impact arms.
Blackpink in the area
None of those guys will be impact arms? Nonsense dude. You are talking nonsense.
Robberse
Hjerpe
Hence
Matthews
They will all be ready by mid-season. Then Rajcic and Lin after that.
I will say it again the pitching is fine it just needs a chance to play.
RobblyDobs
you may be 6-12 months early in a couple of cases (Hence is at best a September 2025 guy) but correct abut the SP pipeline the Cards have in the minors.
The hitting pipeline is a lot less solid though – they need the guys already in MLB to deliver, especially Gorman & Walker
Charlie'sSinging
Agreed. They basically have two impact arms in the high minors right now, and one of them only has a year under his belt, and the other seems injury prone and has never been stretched out.
cah011381
Mcgreevey has been good when he’s been up this year. I’m writing his name into the rotation in ink for next year.
cah011381
I don’t know if it needs to be 2-3 years. They have some young, controllable pitching coming as soon as 2026. Weatherholt should be about ready by then too. You just plan and hope those guys are ready by then, then spend in 2027 to fill in the missing pieces. So yeah I guess that is 2-3 years ♂️
RobblyDobs
They have a small army of pitching coming up in 2025/6, headed by Matthews (BA’s MiLB pitcher of the year) and Hence (also a top 100 prospect) and then a bunch of 5-6 other guys of whom they really should be able find a couple of cromulent bottom of the rotation guys.
Pitching isn’t going to be the issue, its the lineup if Gorman and Walker continue to fail, but with a reasonable wind and a couple of FAs they should be good to compete in 2026, if not hang out with the real heavyweights
cah011381
I’m running Walker and Gorman out there every day next year and let’s see what we’ve got. I hate to screw with Jordan any more, but they really need to get him out of the outfield, he’s terrible out there.
Charlie'sSinging
1000 bonus points for the use of the word cromulent!
hllywdjff
Perfect fit for the mariners 2/37
DonOsbourne
There’s nothing wrong with the Cardinal Way. It has just been set aside in favor of “Mo’s Way”. They are not the same thing.
Samuel
Imagine Branch Rickey bringing on the catcher they have, and paying FA dollars to do it.
LOL
…and they’re stuck with that contract for 3 more years.
RobblyDobs
Wrong. Have you seen the FA catcher market? If they want to trade Contreras contract, there will be takers.
Samuel
RobblyDobs;
Name some.
vtadave
Toronto, Atlanta, Washington, San Diego off the top of my head
cah011381
The Cardinal Way involved development of young players and getting the most of our guys based on their strengths and talent level. That’s the part we lost.
Blackpink in the area
The team was excellent as recently as 2022.
DonOsbourne
Not really. That team was pretty average other than Goldy, Arenado, and an unexpectedly resurgent Albert Pujols playing out of their minds. Mo’s been way more lucky than good.
Blackpink in the area
Had home field advantage against the Phillies. It was a good team. Average isn’t bad it’s average and a bunch of average players surrounded by MVP candidates makes for a good team.
RobblyDobs
They should have won game 2 against the Phils (Quintana dealing when he was pulled, with the result they tried to get 4 outs from am injured Helsley) and they had a big matchup advantage in game 3.
But that’s history – look in the book, as they say.
CardsFan57
It took the last of the MVP level play from Arenado and Goldschmidt in 2022. Even with that they were average had it not been for the shocking second half from Pujols. The team is out of gas at this point with no money to spend. Let the old guys eligible for free agency go and trade the rest for whatever prospects you can get.
Blackpink in the area
Gray is capable of pitching like an ace. Walker and Gorman can certainly play better than they did in 2024. The team isn’t that far off from being a contender. I agree young guys need to play but a full rebuild isn’t needed.
baseballpun
If they win today they’ll match the win total they had in 2006 when they won the world series.
I’m not saying this team is good enough to win the world series but they’re not the White Sox. Or even the Pirates. This is a slightly-above .500 team that got very little out of three guys in the offense who make a combined $80m.
Franky if they keep Gray and Helsley they could trade Nado and Contreras, find some cheaper guys to complement the roster and probably be at least as good even while cutting payroll.
If they do a real teardown they’re basically throwing away a bunch of guys they HAVE developed.
baseballpun
I don’t know. There are rumors that they could be available. I’m fine if they don’t trade either of them too.
CardsFan57
The thing to remember about Arenado is that Colorado will pay $5 million of his salary each of the next two years.
CardsFan57
Contreras is well worth his contract for a team needing a right handed middle of the order hitter. Arenado did have his worst year but I see him as a good bounce back candidate. He still under 35.
I’m not going to speculate which teams will take that chance. I will say that Seattle needs hitters to go with that championship level pitching.
baseballpun
Why the hell would I know who is going to trade for them? I don’t care who does, or if anyone does.
DonOsbourne
@basballpun
Check out 2007.
baseballpun
Yeah, and the 2005 club won 100 games, not 71.
I’m just saying this team isn’t in the crapper. They won 83 games with minimal impact from guys like Goldy and Arenado (performance) or Contreras (injury). They do not need to tear the team down. They already have young guys driving the team.
The rotation will need to be reworked again, though starting with Gray and Fedde going into the offseason (instead of just Mikolas and Matz) I think will help keep them in the mix next year. I would love for them to cut bait with Mikolas and Matz and fill out the rotation with younger guys and maybe Gibson again for innings stability. If your opening day rotation is Gray, Fedde, Gibson, Pallante and McGreevy (for example), I think you have a team with upside that could be competitive. They don’t need to lose 90-100 games next year.
cah011381
Capable of pitching like an ace, but he’s not one. I need my ace to be a little more reliable and Gray still has too many shaky outings to be considered an ace. He’s a strong #2 on a contender.
cah011381
The usual suspects, Dodgers, Yankees. Bregman is a free agent so the Astros may be looking. Arenado will definitely have value for whoever loses out on Bregman. Contreras has tons of value just because he’s a catcher, albeit not a great one, but good production from that position is probably the hardest to find.
DonOsbourne
I think the Mets would have interest in Arenado. It’s their kind of move. Short term, high AAV, wouldn’t require them to give up anything of substance from their farm. I think there’s a deal to be made there.
CardsFan57
I disagree. A salary dump for a fringe prospect is very possible especially for Contreras. I think it’s also possible for Arenado.
baseballpun
Then keep them.
RobblyDobs
Sure there are 30 MLB starting pitchers better than Gray,
Sure there are.
RobblyDobs
Just wrong. try to be better.
Manfred Rob's Earth Band
He did answer your question. He said he didn’t know.
Bobcastelliniscat
Gray is rumored to be moved.
benhen77
Twins have a need at first, but not sure if the budget will allow for Goldy.
Crew2011
Dude rakes in Milwaukee. Please please pick him up. Let Hoskins go.
douglasb
$18m player option.
cwizzy6
Hoskins with another off season to rest and recover will be good for him and hopefully rakes next year.
baseballpun
They can let Goldy go and trade Arenado and Contreras and I don’t think it will impact their competitiveness next year.
If they trade Helsley and Gray they’ll feel it on the field.
Blackpink in the area
Losing Arenado would hurt a bit. He’s not the guy he used to be but still a good player. Herrera could be dealt instead of Contreras. I wouldn’t trade Gray or Helsley losing either of them would take away the teams chance to contend in 2025
baseballpun
I’d like to keep Contreras if he wants to stay but he was hurt so much this year I don’t think losing him would have a huge impact year over year. If they keep him and he stays healthy he could make the team better next year.
If they move Gray or Helsley they’re throwing in the towel.
Charlie'sSinging
Freak injuries for Contreras, not the type you would expect to crop up again.
baseballpun
Agreed, I’m just saying he wasn’t that instrumental in their record this year because he didn’t get to play enough
cah011381
I don’t think they’re anywhere near trying to contend for the next two years at least. Might as well get what we can from Helsley, Gray, Contreras, Arenado, and pay someone to take Mikolas’ ass off our hands.
Rsox
Astros have spent much of this season with a gaping hole at 1B. Since they were willing to give Abreu a 3 year deal perhaps they would be willing to give Goldschmidt a similar deal
Astros_fan_in_Aus
I think the Astros (Jim Crane) have learned a bitter lesson with that Abreu deal. Doubt they will be handing out multi year deals to aging players any time soon.(Yes, I know, Altuve just got a 5 year deal but he is a special case)
Acoss1331
Goldy is a bounce back candidate next season, just not sure where he’ll land, but probably a contending team. I don’t see him signing with a rebuilding team.
CardsFan57
I’d also keep in mind that he lives in Florida. Tampa might be able to sign him to a reasonable contract.
sidewinder11
If Arizona doesn’t resign Christian Walker, I’d be happy to see Goldy sign a 1 year deal there and finish his career with the DBacks.
Tom Timebomb
Being really generous with the “future hall of fame” label in this article, are Goldschmidt and Arenado really there yet?
Samuel
Tom;
A guy has 2 good years and he’s referred to as a “Superstar”.
YankeesBleacherCreature
MVP, 7x All-Star, 4x Gold Glove, Career .289/ .381/.510, 139 wRC+, 62.8 bWAR, MVP runner-up a few times. He’s in.
400 career homeruns, or 38 more, which I think he’ll reach makes his case a slam-dunk.
Bobcastelliniscat
I don’t have a dog in this fight, but going by those numbers, Goldschmidt is not a sure bet for the HoF.
YankeesBleacherCreature
Me neither. I won’t lose sleep if Goldy never gets in. My opinion/money is based on how modern day voters will vote based on their criterias from recent history.
Arizonfan
Look at the stats below Tommy
Mike56
Houston could be his destination. Lived there as a kid. He was a Astros fan. D’Backs maybe also
cah011381
Houston does make a lot of sense for him. Arizona, New York, ugh the Cubs, Mets maybe, if they don’t re-sign Alonso.
positively_broad_st
I can see Goldy going back to Arizona or one of the teams in Texas…
Brick House Coffee Tables Inc
Goldschmidt would be a good veteran voice for a young Nats team if it’s a 2 year deal.
Contreras to Seattle, let him and Raleigh split C and most DH duties to reduce their wear and tear. Seattle can afford to send a pitching prospect or two to St. Louis.
Longtimecoming
Assuming Kim leaves, I can live with Goldie at 1b (with Arraez DH / 1b split); Cro at 2b and Bog back at SS for 2025. Bring back Solano for same role as 24.
Can’t sign a long term 1b, SS and LF and they will need them all if Bog returns to 2b and Cro at 1b.
A short term, last good year of a career guy like Goldie buys a little time to extend the window without a lot of money alotted.
BirdieMan
So who plays 1B if Goldy leaves?
positively_broad_st
Burleson…
CardsFan57
Most likely a platoon of Burleson and Baker. That’s a very good platoon.
cah011381
Donovan can play there a bit too. Maybe start the process of transitioning Walker or Gorman there a little too.
Charlie'sSinging
Burleson had a putrid second half and Baker is about as unproven as they come. If they’re truly rebuilding, that’s fine. Otherwise, no thank you.
cah011381
They both had an OPS+ of 103, which was 6 points higher than Goldschmidt. Are either of them a regular starter on a contender, probably not, but that’s not what we’re doing for the next couple of years. By 2026 we should be getting close to seeing Weatherholt so then you can shift Donovan over, go out and pick someone up, or transition Walker or Gorman to 1B. Also, if they don’t trade Contreras, one of him or Herrera could play there a little too.
Charlie'sSinging
I believe Burleson’s OPS+ in the second half was in the 70s. He lost all power for some reason. Hope it was a blip and not the league figuring him out. Point is, probably not a “very good” platoon, but a rebuild would cause it to be adequate, I suppose.
Reynaldo's
“Team to no longer employ a player that is no longer under contract.”. Why is this significant?
Manfred Rob's Earth Band
Because Goldschmidt is a significant player?
DonOsbourne
I don’t understand why rebuild is such a bad word. I’m not talking about a 3-5 year tank. I’m talking about getting rid of the expensive, declining veterans, resetting the payroll, and re-allocating the money to the player development system. Yes, it would signal that 2025 is not intended to be a competitive season. But really, with a little improvement from a few young guys, they could realistically hang around .500 again.
I would be much happier watching young players go through growing pains, knowing there is hope on the horizon, than watch aging vets struggle to relive their primes.
I said many times before and during this season that 2026 was our next chance to contend. Mo went out of his way to prove me right.
Blackpink in the area
The team won 83 games it wasn’t that far away from the playoffs. I think the team can contend in 2025. I have no problem with Goldschmidt leaving but Arenado is still needed and Contreras i like even if the team is loaded at catcher. The team has a lot of guys who will be free agents after 2027 the time for a reset is then if one is needed. Just get rid of Goldschmidt, Carpenter, Lynn and Gibson. That’s 4 spots to fill with young guys.
DonOsbourne
Did you read Katie Woo’s article? 83 wins is a mirage. -50 run differential is real. Real bad. Mo is coming back and so is Marmol. They want to bring Turner Ward back. Let me say that again. THEY WANT TO BRING TURNER WARD BACK. Now is the time. Don’t let Mo waste one more penny trying to save his own reputation. He has no idea how to make this team better. Take away the checkbook, slash the payroll, invest in the future. That is the only path forward that makes sense. Hoping to maybe win 85 games instead of 83 is the definition of mediocrity. It’s exactly what ownership wants every fan to accept. I won’t do it. There is a way to be profitable and successful. Just not with this management team in place.
Blackpink in the area
Getting rid of Arenado and Contreras is only going to save ownership money it won’t lead to greener pastures in the future. Trading Helsley could but do that and the team has no chance to contend at all. It’s not like the Cardinals have tons of valuable assets to trade.
DonOsbourne
The article implies that Chaim Bloom is going to be handed the money to rebuild the minor league system. That money is going to come from the major league roster. Multiple sources from inside the team agree that this NEEDS to happen. I am all for it. I will happily suffer through a non competitive 2025 if it means serious improvement to the minor league infrastructure.
Blackpink in the area
That money can be Goldschmidt, Gibson and Lynn’s money. That’s almost 50 million right there. And of course Mikolas and Matz are coming off the books after 2025. Money isn’t the problem.
Charlie'sSinging
I watched their run differential all year, thinking any success they had was a mirage. In all actuality though, most of that damage was at the beginning of the season while they were terrible. Once they got back on track, their run differential truly was one of a low-80s win team, so in reality, they finished about how they were playing for the last 3/4 of the season. You’re definitely scaring me with the “bringing Turner Ward back” talk though. That’s a sign they have no desire to win.
Charlie'sSinging
Sadly Gray will be making about $15 million more next year than he did this year though. That hurts.
CardsFan57
This team way overplayed their run differential of -47. It wasn’t as good as the record shows.
Blackpink in the area
Pythagorean stuff is nonsense the team won 83 games that’s how good they were. The pen was a difference maker all year.
Charlie'sSinging
Cards were -52 in run differential on May 11. That was the damage. After that, they were about as good as their run differential the rest of the way.
baseballpun
I agree with all that. Call it a retool I guess if you want. I don’t think they need to or should tear it down to the studs, which seems to be what some people want.
cah011381
I still wish they’d traded Goldy at the 2023 trade deadline when he had value.
baseballpun
Yep
positively_broad_st
The Cardinals don’t need to spend less. They need to return to be really good at developing young players and be better at building their roster…
DonOsbourne
That actually requires spending less on the ML roster. It’s all in the article in the Athletic. Baseball operations has a budget. They sacrificed development in order to spend on the ML roster. Now they need to make cuts in the ML payroll in order to fix the development department.
Ownership is not going to reach deeper. The budget is the budget.
CardsFan57
I’m beginning to wonder if ownership was looking to cash out by selling high. They’ve never been willing to sacrifice the future before.
DonOsbourne
I had the same thought. I think we were spoiled by Bill II. I think Bill III is bad news for fans.
CardsFan57
It could be Busch Jr. to Busch III all over again.
tangerinepony
He’ll be with the brewers in ‘25
thickiedon
Wow. Some rather serious rumors being leaked out of the Cards front office regarding Goldschmidt and Gray
CardsFan57
There’s no need for secrecy. Both things will be obvious soon enough.
JoeBrady
Gray is seriously back-loaded. I doubt he goes anywhere.
JimOToole
Bob Nightengale reported that the Brewers would be interested in signing Goldschmidt if he became available. That makes sense because they’ll be looking for slugging to replace Willy Adames and they currently have a weak-hitting first baseman in Jake Bauers. Milwaukee is likely to loosen its purse strings to try to build a championship team around Jackson Chourio.
DonOsbourne
Eh. The Brewers are stuck with Rhys Hoskins who also hits from the right side. If they found a way to move Hoskins, then Goldy makes sense. But I can’t see them rostering both of them.
Samuel
DonOsbourne;
Right now they’re mostly DH’ing Hoskins. When he plays 1B it’s usually against LH pitchers.
I don’t know if he fits with the Brewers (he’s surely attractive as they value D at all positions), but wherever he goes it would be best to start him in 130-140 games max…and that includes as a DH. Keep him fresh, especially if he winds up on a contending team that has to consider how healthy their players wll be for the extended payoffs.
Charlie'sSinging
Not that much purse string loosening to be done. I’m guessing Goldy will play for $8-10 million for a year with a second year option.
Ezpkns34
Goldschmidt had his lowest BABIP since 2019 (which also happened to be his lowest wRC+ before 2024). His xBA, xwOBA & x SLG were .259/.334/.465
Not immaculate and would still have been a drop off, but are reasons to presume a bounce back to .800 OPS and ~115 wRC+
Charlie'sSinging
Fair. He had a .793 OPS in the second half this year, and that was with a manager who kept jerking him around.
its_happening
Blue Jays will probably try for Goldy. It’s hilarious that Jays fans want Horwitz far away from 2B yet we are staring at Vlad playing 3B and nobody bats an eye. I’ll take Horwitz at 2B over Vlad at 3B. That’s what will lead to Goldschmidt.
Springer needs to DH more. Since the Jays are allergic to rebuilds, they should be focused on a corner OF and 3B, whether it’s free agency or trade. But, if Vlad is playing 3B they might need to shift Bo to 2B and sign an Adames.
AM21
Is he a HOFer though?
Charlie'sSinging
If he plays two more years and reaches 400 HRs, almost certainly. If he retired today, I’d say he’d have a very good chance, but it may be later in his eligibility in a thin year for the ballot. It often just depends on who else is on the ballot. I would say if Edgar Martinez got in, Goldy probably should. Goldy will have better counting stats. EMart has the average and OPS. Goldy has the fact that he played the field and won Gold Gloves. Probably just pick a thinner ballot year in the 10 years he is eligible, and he’ll likely make the grade.
AM21
I think your reply nailed it. He’s borderline but in the right ballot year he’ll get it.
l9ydodger
Arenado agrees to wave no trade clause to be traded to the Dodgers.
Dodgers get; Nolan Arenado & St. Louis agrees to pay $6 million per year on his remaining contract.
St. Louis gets 2 out of;
Michael Grove – P
Gavin Lux – 2B
James Outman – OF
Patrick Copen – P
Austin Gauthier – OF/2B/SS
Jesus Galiz – C
Jakob Wright – P
Peyton Martin – P
If St. Louis agrees to pay 8 million dollars then 3 players from the above list.
eatonculo
That’s cool, but the last thing the Cardinals need are more second basemen and catchers. Pitchers and outfielders work, though.
holecamels35
The fans probably don’t want to hear it but it makes sense. an old underachieving team can’t keep doubling down on more old players.
Samuel
Yes…..
But watch with the Twins do.
Groundhog Day coming.
LOL
Bobcastelliniscat
I wouldn’t mind the Reds acquiring Sonny Gray. Derek Johnson coached Gray at Vanderbilt, as well as, his stint with the Reds. Cincinnati is close to Nashville where Sonny’s wife is from. I suspect Sonny Gray would wave his no trade clause to reunite with the Reds. If they Reds are going take on the bulk of Gray’s contract, the Cardinals can’t expect much back in terms of prospects.
Snookie
Before anything else is done, consider the cardinals two years record with and without Contreras.
Snookie
Before anything else is considered compare the last two years Cardinals record with and without Contreras.
l9ydodger
Well, looks like Mo & Oli are staying put for next year. If they want to make the team younger, they might trade Contreras. The Cardinals would need another catcher then. Galiz or possibly Cartaya from LA. If it’s Cartaya, then another player, a prospect from the Cardinals, in the 15 to 20 ranking range.
Lanidrac
I think Arenado is worth keeping not just because the Cardinals would probably have to eat some money to move him anyway, but also to get that last year of his contract in 2027 at just $15M.
Old York
Houston could be a destination but I think they will not take a second chance on an aging star signing unless it’s a small amount.
User 1939973770
I think Houston will trim payroll a bit. Add complementary pieces to the roster. Maybe re-sign Bregman.
User 1939973770
It seems premature to call Arenado a Hall of Famer. He’s only 33 years old. He’s definitely potentially one, but nowhere near a lock at this point right?
Tigers3232
@ckc I don’t see him as an easy first ballot as of right now. But 10 straight Gold Gloves that he earned on top of the #s he’s already put up make a pretty solid case. Of those 10 I’d say only 2022 with Hayes is there a solid argument that another NL 3B should ve got it.
To put it simply he’s been synonymous with greatness at his position for over a decade. Not pretty good, but great. Only thing currently keeping the likes of him and Goldy from being first ballot guys if careers ended would be lack of counting stats. But consistent dominance for 10+ yrs coupled with analytics they seem like they re pretty certain to get in.
I’d say Betts, Trout, Machado, Freeman all right by the there as well for position players. Harper should be there within a season or 2. His few down yrs mixed in the middle coupled with avg to good defense most years I think kinda keeps him from being quite there currently. But barring something catastrophic he should probably cross that threshold in 2025. He’s already got 52 career WAR compared to Dale Murphy 42 WAR, yet Harper has player over 500 less games .
Enregistre
It’s really weird that MLBTR often refers to both Goldschmidt (twice in this article alone!) and Arenado as future HOFers, as if it’s guaranteed to happen. Is this favoritism or something? Ryan Howard has similar career HR numbers to Goldschmidt, why not him too? What about Teixeria, Soriano, Konerko, and Adam Dunn?
Manny Machado and Freddie Freeman both have similar or better career numbers than Arenado but I never see MLBTR call them future HOFers.
Tigers3232
Soriano , Konerk, Howard, and Dunn are not even close to Goldy. Pointing at HRs alone does nothing foe evaluating careers. Tex is closer but still not there.
As for Freeman and Machado if they were referred to as future HOFers many would not argue that.
Enregistre
But WHY is Goldy a future HOFer? HRs are his best counting stat, for one, and MVP voting and Gold Gloves didn’t get Dale Murphy in.
Tigers3232
Goldy was a more complete hitter for much longer. Murphy won 2 Gold Gloves with Rtot’s of -8 and -21. His best Gold Glove season he had a 4 which is Goldy’s career avg to date.
Yes Murphy was trending towards being a HOFer and I think it would be a fairly split opinion if he ever gets in via Committee. But his issue is that his drop-off was just that significant. Whereas Goldy in a down this year still hit .245 for worst BA of his career opposed to Murphy’s .266 career avg. Goldy has almost 100 more doubles.
OPS+ and all analytic stats Goldy leads. Career WAR Goldy is 18 ahead of Murphy.
I mentioned analytics and WAR last deliberately, in case you re one who dismisses them. Then just go ahead and refer back to traditional stats mentioned first.
Simply put Murphy was dominate and fell off severely. He should ve never won a Gold Glove as he was rarely an above avg fielder the years he won. 2 of the years he was down right bad. Had Murphy won a 3rd MVP he’d have been in.
The 83 MVP a valid case can be made to substantiate it. As for 82 Lonnie Smith, Gary Carter, Guerrero and Yount were all more deserving.
Enregistre
I am not dismissing any advanced stats. My broader point is that HOF criteria are being applied far differently to players in this era than they were in previous generations. And if we’re going to let people like Goldschmidt and Arenado in, or if MLBTR is going to make declarations of those two as future HOFers multiple times in multiple articles over the years, we need to evaluate the candidacy of many more players like Murphy, Dunn, Teixeira, etc.
Tigers3232
You re obviously missing the point Dunn and Murphy miss both with traditional statistics as well as analytics. Tex has a little bit of a case to be made, but the others do not.
To simplify it, the reason that players such as Goldy and Arenado are often referred to as future HOFers is that they most likely are. And that is in comparison to those already in and those who have not made it like the players you mentioned.
Enregistre
Dunn has 462 career bombs and posted an OPS+ over 114 in 12 of his 14 seasons. ISO is 37th all time, ahead of plenty of HOFers. No, he doesn’t miss in terms traditional stats. But he should be excluded because he didn’t have as much WAR? Relief pitchers like Bruce Sutter get in on the backs of their career save totals and no WAR to back it up, why shouldn’t Dunn? He plays a few more seasons after age 34 and he tops 500 bombs easily.
Murphy was one of the best players of the 80s. Being elite in your era has gotten plenty of guys in. Why should Bill Mazeroski be in the HOF with 31 career WAR with just a few more Gold Gloves and All-sTar appearances than Murphy, who has 2 MVPs?
Tigers3232
Murphy a compelling case can be made for. As for Dunn getting near 500 HRs does not make a competing case. Had he got to 500 it would ve likely brought up a needed discussion on if hitting one HOF benchmark but having holes in game pretty much every where else is worthy.
As for Maz, just like Baines 2 wrongs do not make a right. If an argument for a player leads to pointing at only a select few individuals, it is likely a weak case.
With Arenado and Goldy, Arenado hastge stronger case. He’s played a more premium position defensively and is one of if not the best ever at the position. His offense makes a case as well. As for Goldy his career has been consistent potent offense until this past season. He’s yet to hit Amy of the traditional milestones. But unlike Dunn his game is not weak everywhere else. He’s been a force across the board offensively.
Enregistre
500 HR was enough to get Ortiz in with no defensive ability. Dunn wasn’t just a HR hitter either: he walked a ton. Higher career BB% than Gehrig, Foxx, Bagwell, Martinez, Chipper, to name a few, and equal to Killebrew.
I can find several other guys in the HOF whose HR totals are the strongest part of their case: Gil Hodges, Hank Greenberg, Ryne Sandberg, to name a few. Dunn has way more bombs than each of them.
A select few individuals? Hardly. Look at half the players the veteran’s committee has sent in. Phil Rizzuto, Red Schoendienst, Jesse Haines, Lloyd Waner, George Kell, Rube Marquard… should I go on?
Agree about his defense, but Nolan Arenado isn’t nearly the offensive force you’re making him out to be. He played 8 seasons in Colorado and that alone should make you think twice about calling him a future HOFer.
Mercenary.Freddie.Freeman
Woo is going to destroy the Cardinals.
RobblyDobs
Woo is clearly moving teams or would not be writing what she is – they aren’t going to give her any access now
But good for her. Truth bombs.
eatonculo
I hope not. Katie is great.
Nosferatu Zodd
He is a future HOFer, but right now he isn’t a first ballot. He truly is a modern ballplayer. High average/walk rate overcomes relatively low “counting” stats.
DarrenDreifortsContract
Not a surprising move. He’s 37 and on the downside of his career. I wouldn’t give him more than 2 guaranteed years.
The McNasty1
Definitely not a HOFer.
greg1
I don’t blame the Cards for going back to internal development and trimming payroll going into 2025.
During the Cards period of sustained success, winning was built on bringing in the right guy at the right time via trade/FA to add to base of homegrown players. It’s not that surprising to me that the Cards record started to take a downturn when they focused more of getting a Gibson or Contreras instead of truly developing a Walker for example. The Lou is a mid-market city, and we know with mid-market that they only sustain success is to focus inward 1st, and then externally second.
bpskelly
My biggest issue with “blowing it up” is simply that not picking up Lance Lynn’s option — and putting those dollars towards development of minor league players — would change things considerably.
Not immediately of course, but the foundation would be set.
PistolPete44
Mo, Ollie , Dusty, these three together will not produce a playoff team
eatonculo
I agree, but if they’re fired now, DeWitt would have to hire someone else. I’m sure they’re more concerned with paying double salaries than getting in the playoffs.
douglasb
As a Brewers fan, not interested in Goldy. He would be another Hoskins. I’d rather see Black get a chance. Or possibly Yelich platoon with Contreras to give some starts at C to Jeferson Quero.
cwizzy6
I genuinely wonder which of LF or 1B is easier on the back. There is more turning and diving at 1B. I think theyll continue to keep him where he is and trade Frelick or Perkins from the depth to make room. Or just hopefully keep them all in a rotation and fresh.
whyhayzee
Red Sox.
letitbelowenstein
Really? He’d be Bobby Dalbec, Sr.
Citizen1
Cardinals in panic mode during the lean years while the brewers top the NL central.
futuregm12
It seems when a lot of players retire they’re only remembered for one of the teams they’ve played for (i.e. Ken Griffey Jr w/ the Mariners, Pedro Martinez w/ the Red Sox) Will Goldschmidt be remembered as a D-back or a Cardinal? He’s had more seasons in Arizona and more All-Star nominations, but was on a more successful Cardinals team.
cah011381
I guess this means we’re out of the running for the pitcher from Japan brainfarting on the name right now, Sasaki maybe?
Greg Palmer
STL can release or trade every player and put in its place an all star team and it will be an absolute dog of a team. Why? Because their biggest problem is from the President of Operations up to the Owner. Currently this group of executives is dysfunctional, they don’t have an average Scouting operation or player personnel/development group AND the Owner is only concerned about maximizing his personal wealth. With woefully inept Oli as manager cutting salary for an already undermanned team is only going to make STL an only bigger laughingstock. DeWitless is worth more than the owner of the Dodgers but he spends money on the team like he’s got to pay back a payday loan every Friday. Improvement for this team won’t come until a true sportsman who is a fan owns them.
pjmcnu
OK, calling Arendo a future HOFer is defensible. Very good numbers, plus 10 gold gloves at 3B. Get him over 400 HR before he retires and he should be good. Not many 3Bs in Cooperstown, I believe. Not a sure thing right now, I’d think, and would take a few ballots. But Goldschmidt? I love him, but he essentially has the same numbers as Arenado, but without 10 GGs. Also, he’s a 1B (i.e. the least premium defensive position). If he doesn’t have a Renaissance and get to 500 HRs, I’m not at all sure he gets in. Cooperstown is the NFL. They don’t let everyone who was decent in. I mean, if Fred McGriff had to rely on the Veterans Committee (who’s decision I heartily agree with), why would Goldy get voted in?
joew
Paul has been pretty darn good but shoe in HoF seems a stretch. He will probably get in but shoe in… eh..guess it has to do with who is on the ballot. I really haven’t heard any one say anything bad about him though, character does have some to do with the HoF. Likeable people make it easier to vote for.
Anyway, A decently sized bounce back contract, at 5-10m total, + an option of some sort seems reasonable. some sizable bonuses if he looks more like 2022 than 2024.
Fair amount of teams are in need of 1b help, but i’d like to see him in Pittsburgh. Won’t happen but I would at least give him a call.
Kc smoke
This is extra depressing news for cardinals fans to read.
solaris602
I don’t expect the Pirates to shop at the top of any market, but it’s not likely Goldschmidt will command $20M a year, and 1B has been a revolving door for them since Josh Bell’s departure. Goldschmidt on a 2-year $30M might still be out of PIT’s reach, but they need to break out of the cycle of picking the last kid nobody else wants to play 1B.
Divebomber81
Why do I feel like I read “future hall of famer” 400 times in this article? Both Arenado and Goldschmidt were both excellent players… but locks for the Hall they are not. “Future Hall of Famers” should be reserved for no-doubters and generational talent.
VonPurpleHayes
It is positively baffling that they did not trade him at the 2023 deadline. They could have gotten a huge haul.