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How Will The Cardinals Handle Their Rotation Options?

By Nick Deeds | October 6, 2024 at 10:56am CDT

The coming offseason figures to be a tumultuous one for the Cardinals. Coming off a second consecutive season where the club missed the playoffs, St. Louis brass have already announced that significant changes are coming, headlined by Chaim Bloom stepping in to take over baseball operations following the 2025 season (with a larger role in the meantime) and the club planning to slash payroll as they figure to bring back few if any of their departing veteran players.

While Paul Goldschmidt headlines the list of players who appear likely to don another uniform in 2025, what’s not yet clear is what the club intends to do about its starting rotation. Rumors have swirled that the club could shop staff ace Sonny Gray this winter as they look to trim payroll and focus on developing young players, and if Gray were to be moved that would leave only struggling veteran Miles Mikolas, oft-injured swingman Steven Matz, breakout youngster Andre Pallante, and deadline acquisition Erick Fedde as rotation options on guaranteed contracts for 2025. With some interesting young arms such as Michael McGreevey, Sem Robberse, and Adam Kloffenstein in the wings as potential contributors next year, it’s not hard to imagine St. Louis getting solid enough production from its internal options.

With that being said, however, their current rotation picture offers very little certainty, especially should Gray wind up pitching elsewhere next year. After all, even Pallante and Fedde lack track records of success in a big league rotation that go beyond the current season. Fortunately, the Cards have not one but two options available to them that could help raise the floor on their 2025 rotation at a relatively cheap price: Kyle Gibson and Lance Lynn. The veteran hurlers will play at ages 37 and 38 respectively next year, but both posted solid results as back-end rotation options for the club this year and come with identical $12MM club options (with $1MM buyouts) for 2025. Given the club’s focus on the future and desire to trim payroll, it would be something of a surprise if both options were exercised. Given the many similarities between the two veteran Midwest natives, it’s fair to wonder which of the two hurlers would be a better choice for the Cardinals to retain next year, and which one they should send into free agency.

Of the two, retaining Lynn would surely offer a higher ceiling. The veteran hurler pitched the first six seasons of his career in St. Louis as a perfectly capable mid-rotation arm, but had a late-career breakout with the Rangers and White Sox that saw him pitch like a true top-of-the-rotation ace: from 2019 to 2021, Lynn posted a strong 3.26 ERA that was 46% better than league average with a 3.39 FIP and a 27.5% strikeout rate. He also enjoyed slightly better results than Gibson did this year, with advantages in ERA (3.84 vs 4.24), FIP (4.31 vs 4.42), and strikeout rate (21.3% vs 20.9%). For a club that’s likely to rely primarily on internal improvements in order to maintain hopes of contending for a playoff spot in 2025, there’s an argument to be made that Lynn’s ceiling and stronger results this season make him the smarter choice to retain going forward.

That’s not to say there isn’t a case to be made for Gibson, however. While the 12-year MLB veteran has never flashed the ceiling Lynn did during his peak, Gibson is more dependable in some ways. The groundballer rarely misses time due to injury, having made at least 29 starts in nine of his ten full seasons in the majors. By contrast, Lynn was limited to just 21 starts in 2022 and 23 starts this year by knee issues. What’s more, even as Lynn posted stronger overall numbers with the Cardinals this year, certain underlying metrics actually painted a much less clear picture: Gibson’s 4.44 SIERA is nearly identical to Lynn’s 4.40 figure, while Gibson actually wins on both xERA (4.90 vs 4.93) and xFIP (4.19 vs 4.39) thanks in part to a much stronger grounder rate (44.8% vs 36.3%).

While Gibson’s ceiling may not be as high as Lynn’s his reliability could be particularly valuable for a club that figures to rely heavily on young arms who may not yet be ready for a full season’s workload next year, and his comparable expected metrics call into question just how much of an advantage Lynn really has in terms of run prevention. Of course, it’s also worth noting that the club could choose a third option and decline both club options in hopes of finding similar production at a lower cost in free agency. It would be a risky choice to make given the rising costs of pitching in recent years, but a back-end arm like Martin Perez, Jose Urena, or Michael Lorenzen could theoretically be had at a lower price than either veteran’s club option depending on how this winter’s market shakes out. Of course, any player available at that price point would surely have flaws of their own.

How should the Cardinals handle their upcoming club options in the rotation? Have your say in the poll below:

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MLBTR Originals MLBTR Polls St. Louis Cardinals Kyle Gibson Lance Lynn

NL Postseason Notes: McNeil, Marte, Edman, Freeman
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Rays Could Deal From Rotation Depth This Offseason
View Comments (103)
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103 Comments

  1. letitbelowenstein

    8 months ago

    Gibson and Lynn should share the nickname “Pins and Needles”. Those are two guys who, when they’re announced as starters, I never feel like “Well, this one’s in the bag”. They need a frontline starter, though I doubt they’ll be in on Burnes. Maybe a guy like Pivetta could help them.

    Reply
    • gbs42

      8 months ago

      Sonny Gray could be good.

      Reply
  2. bloomquist4hof

    8 months ago

    I think they could get a decent haul this off-season if they went that route and waiting a year could reduce hat but do think there’s enough talent to surprise next year and get that with the modern playoff format even a mediocre win team has a chance to luck into a playoff spot. That has made the old fashioned tear down and rebuild far less popular.

    5
    Reply
    • twopitchmix

      8 months ago

      I agree with bloom, they might be able to surprise the league kind of like the Mets this season that originally weren’t prioritizing contention heading into 2024. It’s a big maybe but depends on how much they trade away this offseason and if there can be internal improvement from the offense and if young starters can be competitive

      2
      Reply
    • Dumpster Divin Theo

      8 months ago

      Uh not too be too picky since you guys are the best fans in baseball but what sort of decent haul do you expect for Lynn, Gibson and Fedde who are league average or marginal and on the back 9 of their careers?

      2
      Reply
      • Ol’ Uncle Charlie

        8 months ago

        @dumpster

        Of the three pitchers you just mentioned, only Fedde is under contract, so there’s that.

        But I’m just a humble BFIB, so what do I know?

        5
        Reply
  3. A'sfaninLondonUK

    8 months ago

    Erm, doesn’t Sonny Gray have a no trade agreement? And given the backloaded contract, a lot of teams aren’t going to think $32.5 million offers value even though he is very good. I do think the Cards might have to eat money and/or prospects…

    3
    Reply
    • Blackpink in the area

      8 months ago

      I was thinking Cardinals eat 20 million he goes to the Braves and Cardinals get Shawver or Waldrep back.

      Reply
      • belkiolle

        8 months ago

        The Braves don’t have infinite money either. They’d likely just put Shawver in the rotation instead of trading for Gray.

        Reply
  4. Blackpink in the area

    8 months ago

    Stop letting the Cubs fan write articles about the Cardinals. Please.

    Lynn and Gibson suck. The team is trying to get younger the last thing they need is Lynn and Gibson around blocking the young pitchers that have earned a shot. Mikolas and Matz also suck but the team is stuck with them.

    I would like to see Gray or Fedde traded.

    Gray/Fedde
    Mikolas
    Pallante
    Matz
    McGreevy

    With Liberatore still deserving of a shot and Kloffenstein and Graceffo ready soon.

    2025 isn’t going to be a good year. The team needs to accept at least that and start planning for the future. No more old veterans blocking young players.

    2
    Reply
    • SewaldSwansonSwoon

      8 months ago

      Gibby is an excellent mentor and enthusiastic clubhouse presence for young teams.

      5
      Reply
      • Blackpink in the area

        8 months ago

        The Cardinals have Mikolas and Matz around as mentors. It’s time to let the kids play.

        1
        Reply
      • BigV

        8 months ago

        Yes he is

        Reply
    • MLB Top 100 Commenter

      8 months ago

      Gray
      Pallante
      Fedde
      Mikolas
      McGreevy
      Matthews

      No reason to pick up options for Gibson or Lynn. Matz needs to go, too.

      Burleson is the strong side platoon 1B

      Contreras is the full time DH

      Herrera and Pages split catching load

      Trade Helsley for two top 100 prospects at mid-season if out of contention. Trade Gorman to Angels.

      Reply
      • Blackpink in the area

        8 months ago

        Matz and Mikolas both need to go but they can pitch until July when Matthews and someone else is ready.

        Contreras needs to catch. I would be OK trading him but not a lot of good fit out there.

        Reply
      • Jose Tattoo-vay

        8 months ago

        Trade Herrera. His offense doesn’t make up for his lack of defense behind the plate. Pages and Contreras can play back there. Maybe bring Crooks up mid year.

        Reply
        • Blackpink in the area

          8 months ago

          I am fine trading Herrera. Rays and Marlins make sense for him. Crooks is the catcher i would not trade. Him and Pages could make a good pair long term.

          1
          Reply
        • belkiolle

          8 months ago

          Herrera is quite a bit better than Crooks at this point. Crooks has never hit anywhere but Springfield while Herrera put up a well above average line in the bigs. Herrera’s defense is good other than his throwing which is fixable. Pages is a backup fungible guy. He’s Tony Cruz all over again.

          Reply
        • Blackpink in the area

          8 months ago

          I dont trust Herreras defense long term. Sure Herrera is better than Crooks today but long term i think Crooks is a better bet. Pages is the backup that should be pretty simple.

          Reply
    • spudchukar

      8 months ago

      I disagree totally! They won 83 games. Contreras out 1/2 of the season, Nootbarr 1/3. They are stuck for 25 and 26 with the core they have, this is assuming they bring back Goldy, which is doubtful. Both Mathews and Hence should be ready soon. Why punt on 25? The Brewers won’t have Adames. Neither Lynn nor Gibson are expensive, relatively. Send Walker back for more fine-tuning. Trade Gorman for a good lefty reliever, and perhaps any of Kloppenstein, McGreevy, or Robersee, none of them are going to become big league hurlers. Keep Saggesse, resign Kittredge. The Cards are younger than you think. Maybe move Contreres, but the return would be great.

      1
      Reply
      • Ol’ Uncle Charlie

        8 months ago

        Agree with all the above, Spud, except regarding McGreevy. He’s succeeded at every level coming up and was super poised on the mound in his four games in the majors this year. Small sample, but 28 innings in four starts with a 1.96 ERA…kid is gonna be a stud.

        Reply
        • spudchukar

          8 months ago

          I hope you are correct. He deserves a shot. Not so sure I agree with your take on his minor league success. But a shot he deserves.

          Reply
    • Dumpster Divin Theo

      8 months ago

      Stop letting the Cubs fan is a good five word mantra start

      Reply
    • bmach13

      8 months ago

      The young pitchers Mo traded for suck but he will force them down our throats to prove he made good trades. He should involve his scouts a lot more in making decisions. Libby does not need to be anywhere but the bullpen. His players are blocking the path of the ones they actually drafted and developed.

      Reply
  5. startinglineup

    8 months ago

    They should call up tink hence and quinn mat
    thews.

    Use hence in brief stints, up to 5 ip or maybe as a reliever. Use quinn as a starter

    That would solidify a lot. And make figuring out the rest easier

    Reply
    • Blackpink in the area

      8 months ago

      Hence isn’t ready yet. Matthews will be up around July i imagine. Matthews replaces Matz or Mikolas that’s really simple. Hence is probably looking at mid 2026.

      2
      Reply
      • startinglineup

        8 months ago

        Hmm im not disagreeing with you he may not be ready

        But hence started in aa this year. Was dominant. Then had arm troubles in the summer

        Had he not had arm troubles i think he would have at least gotten a taste this year

        Question to me is whether matthews leap frogs him. Looks likely now as a sp

        But maybe not as a reliever. Hence could be a good reliever now but im not sure they want another cmart or hicks. Probably want a definitive role to stick him in

        1
        Reply
        • Blackpink in the area

          8 months ago

          If Hence had a healthy season in 2024 I think he would be called up in mid 2025. But with his health problems I think he gets pushed back another year. They don’t want to use him as a reliever at all and I am happy about that.

          Reply
    • gbs42

      8 months ago

      Sounds like a plan for the second half of 2025 or the start of ’26.

      Reply
  6. StlSwifty

    8 months ago

    As a cards fan, I’d like to see us give all our youngsters a chance this year. Let em learn through having consistent playing time. Stock the farm by trading Helsley and co. and let go of anyone that’s older than Oli Marmol lol. I think the fans are ready for the transition.

    Also, it would be a true test of Oli Marmols managing ability.

    3
    Reply
  7. Ol’ Uncle Charlie

    8 months ago

    Keep Sonny
    Re-sign Gibson
    Start Pallante
    Start MCGreevey
    Keep Fedde as insurance to hopefully/probably trade him if another young starter emerges.

    Carry three catchers. Keep Contreras. Give Hererra a start per week while also converting him to a low-buck DH/1B. Pagès as primary second catcher.

    Trade Gorman or keep him at triple A (does he still have options?) to try to get him going as possible DH, but not hopeful. Saggesse is everyday 2nd baseman.

    Keep Burleson in left, Nootbarr in center and Walker in right.

    Keep Arenado at third, but definitely looking to trade him, although that doesn’t look like it’s going to give the team much in return, given his age, contract and diminished power.

    Keep Donovan and Siani on the bench.

    Need a legit 3-hole hitter/1B, but seems inevitable the Cards aren’t going to shop for a good player, unfortunately.

    All that would still give a good number of young/cheap guys a good look and reduce payroll, while still giving the team a decent chance to win.

    Reply
    • Buffett

      8 months ago

      There payroll is going to get cut in half by 2026.

      Reply
      • Ol’ Uncle Charlie

        8 months ago

        @Buffet

        Last year’s payroll was $175m. My guess is the payroll will get slashed to $140m, not $87m, as you suggest. Letting Goldy, Lynn and Kittredge go would get payroll down by about $40m. Some players will get bumps up in arbitration, but that cost should be fairly minimal.

        3
        Reply
        • Buffett

          8 months ago

          Key word, by 2026

          Reply
        • Ol’ Uncle Charlie

          8 months ago

          There’s zero chance the Cardinal payroll is $87m for 2026.

          5
          Reply
    • Champs64

      8 months ago

      Charlie, I like your take on the team for next year. Donovan deserves to be in the lineup most days and can sit players in the DH role. I have not given up on Gorman just yet but think he needs to earn his way back on the team. This team has not ever had to blowup and see no reason to to this now.

      2
      Reply
    • hollidayfever

      8 months ago

      Donovan on the bench? He’s their 3rd best hitter at worst. He’s an everyday starter. That OF would also likely be the worst in MLB history too. Noot can barely stay healthy, so full time CF is a bad idea.

      1
      Reply
  8. DarkSide830

    8 months ago

    This team is badly in need of a rebuild.

    9
    Reply
    • Blackpink in the area

      8 months ago

      Not really. I am fine if they want to do that but there are plenty of teams that are worse off.

      1
      Reply
      • DarkSide830

        8 months ago

        They didn’t make the playoffs and are gonna cut payroll. They should just fully commit at this point to the cut-down.

        Reply
        • Blackpink in the area

          8 months ago

          With that logic half the teams in baseball need to rebuild.

          1
          Reply
      • Buffett

        8 months ago

        That’s not saying much

        Reply
  9. Mike56

    8 months ago

    Keep Donovan on the bench? He’s their best player. Evidently you haven’t watch Cards much. He plays everyday somewhere

    2
    Reply
    • Ol’ Uncle Charlie

      8 months ago

      @mike56

      Donovan is an incredibly valuable, versatile player on the bench who will get a lot of playing time, most likely.

      But at the end of the day, his league average range, glove, speed, and subpar arm make him most suited for the bench. He’s under club control and has substantially less upside than Saggesse, who is likely to play every day at second base.

      If Burleson and Nootbarr can stay on the field/produce, Donovan isn’t likely to start at any one position next year. But he will get a lot of playing time as he’s moved around the field.

      Masyn Winn is our best player, not Donovan.

      1
      Reply
      • spudchukar

        8 months ago

        Donovan is much better than you suggest, not a burner, but an excellent base-runner, arm isn’t weak just average, and his defense is elite, and beginning to show power. He is a borderline star!

        Reply
        • Ol’ Uncle Charlie

          8 months ago

          I agree with you about Donovan’s base running. He has great instincts and likes to run. It’s a big part of his balanced skill set. Still doesn’t mean an everyday position for him now that Saggesse is probably going to win the spot.

          On another team, he could absolutely be a starting second baseman, but he’s not elite. His versatility make him above average. If his arm was just average, he would have a starting spot at a position requiring a strong arm. Seeing him lollipop throws from left this year wasn’t fun to watch. The team struggled a lot so there wasn’t much attention paid to his arm and Donovan was actually hitting.

          I love the guy. He’s a baseball rat, a gamer, and a really good clubhouse guy, but I don’t want him starting at second unless Saggesse flames out and I wouldn’t bet on that happening.

          1
          Reply
        • spudchukar

          8 months ago

          I am a Saggese fan, but not at the expense of Donovan. His defense is better than you suggest. Unless they can swing a deal for a number 2, with Gorman and others, stick with what they got. At least until the younger arms are ready. Mathews is the only guy. Hence probably works out of the pen.

          Reply
  10. Blackpink in the area

    8 months ago

    Here is a mock trade i was working on last night.

    Helsley
    Romero
    Arenado

    For

    LeMahieu
    Dominguez

    Yankees turn LeMahieu into a legit 3b and get 2 big pieces for the pen. Cardinals get a top prospect who hopefully is as good as the hype around him is.

    2
    Reply
    • YankeesBleacherCreature

      8 months ago

      Uhh no. In ’25, Jazz is very affordable and stays at 3B. Ditto for Luke Weaver for $2.5MM who replaces All-Star Clay Holmes. Middle relievers are easy to find in free agency and the Yankees have a great pitching coach to help pick them out. Trade Dominguez for a one-year rental stud closer with the possibility of losing Juan Soto? What in world would the Cards do with a declining DJL for two more years??

      2
      Reply
      • Blackpink in the area

        8 months ago

        Chisholm plays 2b and replaces Torres. You really want Weaver closing games??? Helsley is one of the best closers in the game. Romero is not a middle reliever. And all this is assuming the Yankees sign Soto and need to save some money rounding out there rest of their team. And the Cardinals take LeMahieu as a salary dump if he bounces back they trade him to a contender if he doesn’t they release him.

        Reply
        • YankeesBleacherCreature

          8 months ago

          Chisholm has been great at 3B by all defensive metrics and by eye test and has had very solid offense. It’s also easier to find a new second baseman. Yes, I want Weaver closing out games for the entirety of the playoffs AND next season. DJL’s bat may bounce back but his defense and speed aren’t. Your trade proposal doesn’t make sense for either side.

          1
          Reply
        • Blackpink in the area

          8 months ago

          The proposal makes plenty of sense. LeMahieu is a salary dump the Cardinals can play him hoping he bounces back the Yankees don’t have that luxury because they are trying to win games. Chisholm is a better 2b than 3b and Arenado is a former platinum glove winner at 3b. He’s better than Chisholm defensively by a lot. If you want Weaver closing games good luck with that.

          Reply
        • YankeesBleacherCreature

          8 months ago

          Alternatively, the Yankees sign a 30 y.o. Alex Bregman and Tanner Scott without losing Dominguez. No trade. lol.

          (I did dropshipping/arbitrage selling once upon a time for two years. Temu, Shein, etc. expanding into the U.S. killed it for me.)

          Reply
        • Blackpink in the area

          8 months ago

          The Yankees aren’t signing much else if they sign Soto. That’s the idea here they sign Soto and then need to make a trade to round out the rest of the team.

          Of course spending more money sounds like a good idea as a fan. And as a Yankees fan I see why you would particularly think that. But if they sign Soto there isn’t going to be a ton of money leftover.

          Reply
        • spudchukar

          8 months ago

          Cards have no need for LeMahieu, none.

          3
          Reply
    • mike127

      8 months ago

      You really spent a Saturday night “working on” a mock trade???

      That’s actually precious.

      Playoffs on—Shohei, Judge….even college football……..

      …..and then you have a team that already has the guy turn LeMahieu in a legit 3b some 14 years into his career. That ship has sailed. Actually never left the dock.

      As mock trades go—-good effort. A+ for originality.

      2
      Reply
      • Blackpink in the area

        8 months ago

        Dude I sell toys and non sports trading cards for a living. I got time lol.

        LeMahieu is just a salary dump. Cardinals could pay 27 million and the Yankees could keep Lemahieu it doesn’t matter.

        Reply
        • mike127

          8 months ago

          That makes it better and much more understandable.

          I can totally envision you taking little Colorforms heads of Arenado and LeMahieu and shifting them and others around the fridge until everything seemed like a fair trade.

          Was just kind of joking around—-I kind of didn’t put mock trades in the “work on” category. Just write stuff down and it comes out the same since mocks are just that—mocks.

          1
          Reply
    • BigV

      8 months ago

      I like the effort. I like thinking up mock trades as well.

      Reply
    • It's in the CARDS

      8 months ago

      The criticisms here are good, but the trade idea still has merit. Cards need an everyday outfielder having let several go. I think if instead of DJ they received a promising SP in the high minors it makes more sense on their end.

      Reply
    • belkiolle

      8 months ago

      Why on earth would you overpay like that and bring back a washed up LeMahieu?

      Reply
      • Blackpink in the area

        8 months ago

        Dominguez is a stud prospect and would instantly be the best prospect on the team. Thats why. Lemahieu is simply a salary dump.

        Reply
  11. Big whiffa

    8 months ago

    Reds will take Gray off yalls hands !

    Reply
  12. T-Bone22

    8 months ago

    Keep Gray as a mentor and leader.
    Do not re sign Gibson and Lynn.
    Play Gray, Feddle, Mikolas, Pallante, Mc Greevy (or Liberatore or Matz)
    Trade Arenado for whatever we can and try Gorman at third (he has no trade value for now)
    Trade Hesley.
    Try to trade for Jake Burger (St Louis Native) to play 1st base (or 3B and DH) and bring some RH pop.
    Play Donovan 2B, Wynn SS, Herrera and Pages C, Contreras DH (and occasionnaly catching), Burleson LF/1B/DH, Nootbar CF, RF, LF, Walker RF,LF
    Have Saggese as utility player and Ciani as OF insurance
    Fill the relief corp with young pitchers and have Matz as closer.
    Not great but not awfull easer. Less expansive and give to the young pitchers and player like Scott to get experience at AAA

    2
    Reply
    • BigV

      8 months ago

      I’m all about trading for Burger. Missouri boy

      3
      Reply
    • SimbaHOF2019

      8 months ago

      Thats about right. only thing i dont want is Burger. The guy just rubs me the wrong way .lol we have alot of 1B options

      Reply
    • belkiolle

      8 months ago

      Burger sucks. Why on earth would you see him as a fit?

      Just put Burleson at 1B every day and let it ride. He’s as good or better offensively and better defensively at 1B than Burger.

      Reply
  13. CardsFan57

    8 months ago

    Decline both options if saving money is the goal. There are plenty of rotation options available. Try to trade as many over 30 players as possible then start rebuilding the team for 2026.

    4
    Reply
  14. anotherdamncardinalfan

    8 months ago

    Hence? Mathews? Hello?

    Reply
  15. Mike56

    8 months ago

    Uncle Charlie- yea Winn probably has better upside and very good athlete . I’m just saying keep Donny in lineup somewhere. He can handle anything defensively and he’s a grinder . Gives you great at bats .
    Blackpink mentioned Dominguez . A lot of hype over his bat. May be a great power hitter in time. His defense is scary. Saw couple games he played kinda looked lost in LF. Him in LF and Walker in RF probably wouldn’t work

    1
    Reply
  16. PronounsRUS

    8 months ago

    That team hasn’t been the same since that racist and baby Ozzie Smith retired.

    Reply
    • spudchukar

      8 months ago

      No room for your brain here.

      2
      Reply
      • It's in the CARDS

        8 months ago

        Nor in his own skull, apparently.

        Reply
    • L Francis Reves

      8 months ago

      What in the world are you talking about!?

      Reply
  17. positively_broad_st

    8 months ago

    It’s time for the Cards to move on from Mikolas, if someone will take on the final year of his contract. Maybe package him up with Gorman or Walker, and some team might take the gamble on a rebound(s). Letting Lynn go should be a given…

    Reply
  18. L Francis Reves

    8 months ago

    In the rotation, they should clean house.

    Mikolas has been a liability for over 2 seasons. Matz continues Mo’s terrible record, when it comes to leftys. Lynn should never have been signed. Gibson was only slightly better.

    Gray should stay as mentor.

    Palante earned his rotation spot.

    McGreevey certainly deserves another shot.

    Fedde would be 4.

    As far as 5, I don’t have conjecture for those, yet.

    However, the crew that should leave doesn’t fit the bill.

    Reply
    • Slider_withcheese

      8 months ago

      Not to nitpick but Lynn (technically) had the better season. Both were fine signings at the time as they served the purpose of what they were brought in for. No one expected them to slot in higher than they did. Moving forward, no. Neither should be picked up. I will agree on Miles but I think they’re stuck with him until 26. I’m not as down on Matz as most (the contract, sure) but think he still has more value than given credit for. (Bullpen or starter)

      Reply
  19. Slider74

    8 months ago

    Get rid of Mikolas and Matz. Until we get a new pitching coach and a new manager who know what they are doing it does not matter who we have for starting pitching or in the bullpen.

    2
    Reply
    • Blackpink in the area

      8 months ago

      Mikolas and Matz are gone after 2025 regardless. And their trade value couldn’t be lower than it is right now.

      1
      Reply
      • T-Bone22

        8 months ago

        Wonder if Cards and Diamondbacks would be interested by a swap between Mikolas and Jordan Montgomery (with money being exchanged)

        1
        Reply
        • Blackpink in the area

          8 months ago

          If the Cardinals are going to try and contend them yes I would be interested in that. Mikolas or Matz.

          Reply
        • SimbaHOF2019

          8 months ago

          You could flip Monty at the deadline if your not contending

          Reply
        • belkiolle

          8 months ago

          You do realize Montgomery was quite a bit worse than Matz or Mikolas this year yes? And he’s making more money? You could flip Mikolas at the break with a bounceback too.

          Reply
        • Blackpink in the area

          8 months ago

          I can explain and understand why Montgomery had a had year. Mikolas is running out of excuses and Matz can’t stay healthy.

          Reply
        • belkiolle

          8 months ago

          Mikolas was top ten in baseball in Quality Starts this year. Something like 40% of his earned runs were allowed in 25% of his starts. He had some terrible games (4 really bad ones) but for the most part he was a very serviceable every 5th day starter.

          Montgomery had a normal throwing program over the offseason. What excuses do you have for him looking like he’d never thrown a baseball before in his life for most of the year?

          Reply
        • Blackpink in the area

          8 months ago

          You are cherry picking stats to find something that makes Mikolas look good. He’s not paid like a 5th starter that’s the problem. Montgomery is a number 2 starter if he pitched like he did with us and the Rangers.

          Reply
        • belkiolle

          8 months ago

          24 of his 32 starts he allowed 4 or less runs. 21 of 32 he allowed 3 or less. How is his whole season cherry picking?

          He’s making $17.6M this year and in 2025. That’s 4th starter money in the current market which is what he is if he doesn’t bounce back at all. If he bounces back to his former #2 level then it’s a bargain.

          Montgomery is a #3 starter if he pitches like he did for a season and a half with the Cardinals and Rangers. The rest of his career he’s pitched like a 5th/6th starter and he’s making more money than Mikolas.

          Reply
        • Blackpink in the area

          8 months ago

          No successful team with a budget pays 17 million for a 4th starter. And it was a 2 year 40 million dollar extension so it’s really more like 20 a year.

          Montgomery was our ace in 2022 the last time the team was good. He was the Rangers game 1 starter for the WS. Hes at least a number 2 I wasn’t bending the truth like you are trying to do for reasons I don’t understand.

          Reply
      • spudchukar

        8 months ago

        Still think they might get something for Matz, not a lot.

        Reply
  20. Blackpink in the area

    8 months ago

    Another mock trade

    Contreras
    Helsley
    Romero
    10 or 15 million

    For

    Sebastian Walcott

    Rangers get a 2nd catcher and DH who can hit in the middle of the lineup. They also get a stud closer and setup man. Cardinals get a great looking 3b prospect to replace Arenado.

    Reply
    • belkiolle

      8 months ago

      Walcott isn’t that valuable man. That’s nuts.

      Reply
      • Blackpink in the area

        8 months ago

        Sure he is. Contreras is worth about whst he’s paid he has no surplus value. Helsley is only under control for 1 more year Romero 2. Walcott was playing this year at AA as an 18 year old. That’s exciting.

        Reply
        • belkiolle

          8 months ago

          Contreras has about $12M in surplus value based on projections for the next three years. If he manages to stay healthy for a full year it’ll be even more.

          Helsley could be signed long term without an issue. Romero isn’t worth much either way. His value is mainly just in control over a a slightly above average relief arm.

          Walcott played 5 games at AA at the tail end of the season. Pump the brakes. He was 20% better than league average offensively in A ball as an 18 year old. He’s a below average defender at both SS and 3B.. That’s good but not great. He’s basically Nolan Gorman but with possibly even worse strikeout issues and a lower power ceiling. Prospects with contact issues in A ball generally don’t end up stars.

          Reply
        • Blackpink in the area

          8 months ago

          Contreras was signed to a backloaded deal and was hurt last year. Hard to say he has positive trade value as of today.

          Walcott is an exciting young prospect. He’s 18 maybe he doesn’t pan out but that’s the chance you take. Comparing him to Gorman is a bit silly he’s 18 years old.

          Reply
        • belkiolle

          8 months ago

          Contreras is 18, 18, 18.5 the next three years. Calling a contract whose terms were 10, 18, 18, 18, 18.5 backloaded is goofy. Even hurt last year he was a top 10 catcher.. He was worth 2.6 WAR (about $22M in value) in half a season and was the best offensive catcher in baseball this year by wRC+.

          Comparing him to Gorman at the same levels in the minors isn’t silly given they were the same age and have very similar skillsets.

          Reply
        • Blackpink in the area

          8 months ago

          The team paid Contreras an average of 14 million a year for the last 2 years. He’s owed 18 a year for the next 3 years and has a 5 million dollar buyout on his 2028 option. Its absolutely a backloaded deal.

          No successful team pays 22 million for 2.6 WAR. Yes he hit well but he’s always hit well. He was also hurt and missed a lot of time.

          Reply
  21. PronounsRUS

    8 months ago

    GM Joel doing the dirty work. No wonder you’re stuck selling toys being a felon and all.

    2
    Reply
  22. RodBecksBurnerAccount

    8 months ago

    I’ve never understood why people thought Lance Lynn was a “mid-rotation” arm in his early years with the Cardinals, and “broke out” later with the Rangers.

    From 2012-2017 (Lynn’s first 5 full seasons) he had a 3.39 ERA, averaged 188 innings pitched and 8.4 K/9. That’s better than a “mid-rotation” arm. Maybe because those Cardinal rotations were stacked, but by league standards he was way above average.

    Yes, he did become even better in Texas and his first season White Sox but he was always a solid pitcher.

    4
    Reply
    • belkiolle

      8 months ago

      Most underrated Cardinals starter of that period by far. Lance was nails.

      1
      Reply
  23. Jbigz12

    8 months ago

    Maybe I’m wrong but I think they’re both fine on 1/12 deals. Maybe the cards don’t want to risk it but I think either one of them is tradeable as a salary dump. Would save them the $1MM buyout.

    2
    Reply
    • BigV

      8 months ago

      I would be ok with keeping them

      1
      Reply
    • It's in the CARDS

      8 months ago

      Given pitcher injury rates, keeping both (or signing an even cheaper veteran innings-eater) allows the team to go too deep into their minor leagues for depth.

      Reply
  24. bgaul3323

    8 months ago

    The fourth choice is missing — decline both options and go extremely young. Use minor league depth and/or sign a bounce-back candidate. Mickolas is your innings eater.

    Sounds crazy but I could see it.

    1
    Reply

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