The Tigers did not reach agreement with two-time Cy Young winner Tarik Skubal on a deal to avoid arbitration this evening. They’re now likely headed for what would be the most significant hearing in memory. That’s due to an astronomical $13MM gap in the sides’ respective filing figures.
Mark Feinsand of MLB.com reports that Skubal is seeking a $32MM salary, while the Tigers filed at $19MM. The sides are free to continue negotiations right up to the hearing time, but teams typically adopt a “file-and-trial” approach and cease talks on one-year deals after figures are exchanged. If it gets to a hearing, an arbitrator can only choose either Skubal’s number or the team’s. Arbitrators are not permitted to land on a middle ground, so the result would be very consequential.
If it gets to a hearing, Skubal will be shooting for the largest arbitration salary ever. That record is held by Juan Soto, who settled on a $31MM deal with the Yankees in his final year before free agency. Shohei Ohtani and the Angels agreed to a $30MM deal in his final year of arbitration eligibility. They’re the only two players to reach that benchmark. Vladimir Guerrero Jr. signed the loftiest deal in last winter’s class; he landed at $28.5MM.
While Skubal’s filing figure isn’t markedly above those of recent superstars, it would shatter the benchmark for pitchers. The arbitration process hasn’t rewarded high-end arms as handsomely as it does impact bats. In fact, no arb-eligible pitcher has commanded even $20MM. David Price still holds the record with a $19.75MM salary from back in 2015.
ESPN’s Jeff Passan wrote about the potential for an historically significant hearing when examining Skubal’s arbitration case this morning. As Passan pointed out, the collective bargaining agreement allows players who are one year away from free agency to compare themselves not only to past arbitration precedents, but to free agents as well. There’s ample precedent for free agent pitchers commanding upwards of $30MM annually, with some late-career aces pulling more than $40MM per season on short-term deals. That provision hasn’t actually moved the market for arb-eligible pitchers forward to this point, however, and the aforementioned massive salaries for Soto, Ohtani and Guerrero were all agreed upon without a hearing.
The Tigers’ filing figure aligns with arbitration’s historical precedent against pitchers. It’s also much more aligned with the usual year-over-year escalating salaries associated with the process. Skubal received a $10.15MM salary last year. The largest yearly jump for a pitcher is held by Jacob deGrom, who earned a $9.6MM raise after winning his first career Cy Young in 2018. Detroit’s figure would give Skubal an $8.85MM boost after his second consecutive Cy Young award.
To a large extent, this serves as a test case for the arbitration process itself. That Price still holds the record for a pitcher shows how much the system has lagged when it comes to valuing arms (particularly in comparison to the escalating free agent prices for starters). Skubal and his representatives at the Boras Corporation are aiming to blow that wide open. That’d obviously be significant for the southpaw himself but would also go a long way toward raising the earning ceiling for future arms.
There’s no guarantee that this actually gets to a hearing. Player and team would have a lot of money at stake if it does, and they’d each avoid the unpredictability of relying on the arbitrators if they settle on a deal in the mid-$20MM range. However, this kind of situation is precisely why teams prefer the file-and-trial approach. That’s designed to prevent the player from filing well above their expected value to anchor future talks from a higher baseline. Refusing to continue negotiating after numbers are exchanged prevents that situation. If the player files very high, the club feels good about its chances of winning a lower than expected number at the hearing.
It all makes sense in theory, but the stakes of a potential hearing in this case are higher than any in team history. They’d need to operate for the next month or so with a $13MM range in their payroll projection, which could hinder short-term free agent or trade activity. Skubal is one year from free agency and trending towards the largest pitching contract ever. If the Tigers feel they have any chance to re-sign him, they may not want to run the risk of an inherently adversarial hearing.
There’d also be ramifications if they put him on the trade market — either before Opening Day or, far more likely, if they fall out of contention before the deadline. One year of Skubal would have immense trade value regardless of his salary, but he’d be much more appealing to other clubs on a $19MM sum than he would at $32MM.

So embarrassing…
For who? You?
For the Tigers organization. Disrespecting their back to back cy young award winner with a terrible offer like that. Who they apparently still plan on employing for the next year.
They didn’t disrespect him. 19m is very generous. More than many experts predicted he would get.
Which expert?
All the ones I seen. I find them to be experts. Mlbtr you may have heard of. They do a great job with arbitration projections.
Which expert?
===================
The site you are on right now, and they are normally reliable. They predicted $17.8M.
I don’t know what’s worse, being this far apart in terms with your back to back Cy Young winner, or going to arbitration with Casey Mize over the difference of a McDonald’s cheeseburger.
Well it worked as it got him to agree to a 3.1M club option to get that $25K. Why do you think you’re smarter than an MLB front office when it comes to saving money?
They’re offering him more than he was projected to get. Detroit has nothing whatsoever to be embarrassed about.
I wish someone would disrespect me by offering me just $19MM.
@TheBigKurtz John Fisher has your back. Get ready for $19 total in cash for the soda dispenser.
2.21 ERA and back to back Cy Young and they offered him less than David Price got more than a decade ago. Yes, they have a lot to be embarrassed about.
Real good chance they lose this case as well. They should have listened to people in the game who had been saying for a while that had been saying Skubal intended to test the clause in the CBA that allowed the arbitrator to compare him to FA in terms of pay. He was better last season than any FA that got a $30 million AAV was in his walk year before free agency. Skubal has a real shot to win this case and the Tigers should have known that.
You think you’re saying something smart except you don’t understand that Price was a super two player and was on his FOURTH trip through arbitration when he reached that number. Skubal is only on trip THREE.
It’s embarrassing that fans don’t understand the arb process every year I gotta example it to the simpletons
Skubal isn’t the first to test arb. There are 18 of them just this year. These projected arb numbers are usually really close. There are several metrics that go into those numbers including what you have been getting in arb especially the last season.
For skubal to win he is going to need one heck of a lawyer. I don’t think I’ve ever seen this site miss an arb number by more than 6m. Which is what he will need to get the extra 13m.
This site says he is worth (via arb) about 18m. So no real risk for skubal. If he loses he gets 19m which is more than was predicted.
People say well he is gonna get traded now. Idk, this situation doesn’t help his trade value. He looks more appealing at 19m than he does at 32m. This doesn’t mean there is bad blood, as I stated above this is a win win for Skubal based off of projections.
19 mil is a terrible offer? Oh, right. The gimme-gimme-gimme boo-hoo generation.
Any site that thought Skubal wouldn’t exceed the record that was held by a guy from 10 years ago seems a bit oit out of touch. To put in perspective, Kershaw held the record for highest annual salary of any player in 2015 at $31 mil. Since then at lest 7 mlb pitchers have blown past that number, especially Ohtani. While those are free agent numbers and not arbitration the point is that he deserved to be closer to market value than the $19 mil they’re offering.
So the record was $19 m to David Price way back in 2015. How does that make $19 m to Skubal a “very generous” offer? 11 years of salary inflation and last time I checked, Price wasn’t coming off back to back Cy Youngs.
$32 mil gets into absurdsville, but Detroit absolutely should have broken the $20 mil threshold with their offer. Regardless of what the “experts” say.
Hardly a disrespectful offer. Very much in line with historical raises. Nothing disrespectful about that. Skubal is hoping to set records, not just in arbitration but when he hits the market next year.
Yup total disrespect, might as well just trade him with an extension, for another team out there.
RE letitbelowensteinCancel
“The gimme-gimme-gimme boo-hoo generation.”
The we’re not going to be satisfied with just accepting what is offered generation
KFCF
“he deserved to be closer to market value than the $19 mil they’re offering.”
He does deserve it
But the arbitration system is deeply flawed
@FrankRoo Who said saving money should be the focus of the franchise? This is what you root for? Ticking off your best player by offering him only a few million more than Alex Cobb is the point. You’ve gotta be Chris’s burner.
I think that Skubal should get more than the Tigers are offering, while less than what he wants.
They were really disrespecting him! How dare they!
Actually no – offering 19 million is far more than the salary of 99,9% people in the world who would get that in a lifetime let alone 32 days of « official work » (that is to say pitching in a ballpark).
Equally, it’s an offer to see if there is a « counter offer » for a possible valuation of a :
1) long term deal ;
2) short term deal;
3) what he would cost if traded.
As the article showed a pitcher and everyday player don’t have the same work rate (5x more on average for a positional player) and also the highest arb salary is a third less than Sotós record contract/deal.
They both play the same sport but don’t affect DAILY the result.
Skubals representatives went too high with their filing figure. I feel like the lever is with the Tigers.
@Frenchredsox So are you going to be the one to go tell players they should only be paid the medium annual salary of citizens in their team’s district because it’s “fair?” Or pitchers to accept less money because they don’t work hard enough for it?
BTW, pitchers worker harder and have more impact to the outcome of one game/week than a position player does in 7 games / week.
I remember Al Kaline refusing $100,000 because he didn’t think he was worth it, so they gave it to Bill Freehan..players today are just greedy people that could care about the fans
@French
Can you throw the ball over 90 mph? I can’t. How many strikeouts can you get vs mlb players? I probably couldn’t get 1. How many Cy Young awards do you have? Just as many as me. You can’t compare what am elite mlb player makes compared to the other 99% of the world. You compare him against his peers and while the arbitration process is inherently cost controlled vs what they can get in the open market is still a bargain. They will likely negotiate something in the middle but why stay off with such a low offer? If this goes to arbitration do they take any to sit opposite of him and his agent and argue why he S DOESN’T deserve $32 mil? might as well just traded him at that point
Bak Pak
Real good chance they lose this case as well. They should have listened to people in the game who had been saying for a while that had been saying Skubal intended to test the clause in the CBA
=======================
1-I’d bet a decent amount that the Tigers win. As someone else pointed out, they should’ve started with $20M so that Skubal could still claim to be the highest ever, but I cannot see them giving out a $22M raise. It is way past any precedent.
2-I’m not a lawyer, but what would your case be in challenging a clause that you had previously agreed to via your union rep? My understanding is that, once your union members have ratified a contract, then you are bound by the rules, even if you voted against it.
ThatsIT?
It’s embarrassing that fans don’t understand the arb process
==================
I think it’s more about ‘feelings’ than facts. That’s America for you.
KnicksFanCavsFan
the point is that he deserved to be closer to market value
=======================
It’s not the point at all. The PA and the players have decided that players should be underpaid for 6 service years, so long as there are almost no restrictions on future earnings.
That you disagree with it is meaningless. The players have agreed to it.
JuanUribeJazzHands
But the arbitration system is deeply flawed
===================
No, it is not. It is an agreement that both parties signed onto.
It’s like saying that you and your employer agreed to let you leave early for matinee games, if you work late. It doesn’t matter what I think. It’s your agreement.
Even had they known that, what could the Tigers have done differently? Had they offered $25mm, they still would end up in front of an arbitrator.
That’s not how it works. You can’t compare arbitration numbers to FA numbers.
The system is set that pre FA deals are under paid while FA deals are an over pay.
I’m
Not saying it’s right or wrong, just that it’s how the system works.
Just responding to #2 Joe. The CBA has rules. In my line of work, to void an arbitrator’s decision is extremely difficult to do and usually it happens when there is case law that was totally ignored, that’s not the case here. That said, the arbitrator can only choose between the two presented numbers and being offered less than Price 11 years ago when you have back to back Cy’s is just nuts.
One could argue that pitchers like Skubal and Skeens do affect the daily result since it usually means a low-impact day on the bullpen, the majority of whom can take the day off, meaning they’ll be more effective in games Skubal doesn’t pitch. For example, Hinch’s “pitching chaos” wouldn’t have worked without having Skubal at the top of the rotation.
They need to compare Skubal to Alex Cobb… The Tigers offered Cobb $15 mil after he had an injury plagued year and never even made it to the majors. Skubal has to be worth a few million dollars more than that.
I will never understand that Alex Cobb contract. They were bidding against themselves for a 37-year-old who threw 16 IP the year before.
Skubal is not normal person.
Hi Dewey, I disagree with the Price comparison because it isn’t really apples to apples. Price was in his 4th arbitration year.
I do think the Tigers should have offered $20M just to keep the Price argument off the table.
The more valid argument from Skubal’s camp is comparisons to free agent contracts.
Can you get MLB hitters out?
It is when deGrom is getting $40M
Embarrassing for Yu Darvish? What’s Yu Got to Do With It, say Tina
Why is it embarrassing? It’s business on both sides
It’s pathetic Detroit manipulation of a star players
And why isn’t it the player manipulation of the team?
Management simp identified.
I never understood grown men worrying about other grown men’s $. Why not worry about ownwrs $? Because they have more?
Simp or simply someone more intelligent than you who refuses to go with your false propaganda?
Skubal earned his pay. Owners are just skimming off the work of the real stars.
It’s business and both sides are operating within the rules of the current CBA, just like the Dodgers deferring salaries. Nothing to get hot and bothered over.
And who pays the minors leaguers and non-stars? Who pays for personnel who draft and develop? The players don’t do this by themselves. But they’re probably all overpaid, owners and players. But that’s capitalism.
Simps everywhere, it seems. Siding with billionaires over a 2x CY on a team that collapsed in the second half is such a pathetic take.
So then Boras simp sighting?
@WadeBoggs…I’m not trying to argue with you, only simply trying to understand. You’re calling everyone “simps” without explaining anything. You said “Skubal earned his pay” but what are you suggesting? Are you upset at the Tigers offer? Are you upset with the arbitration system as a whole?
@kzw
The guy’s not interested in a balanced discussion, merely acting in a reflexive, dogmatic manner regardless of a matter’s complexity.
Why not ask why Boras so avidly protects the interests of the upper crust in the MLBPA while the vast majority of the rank and file’s contributions go unrewarded? The big time agents and star players run the union for their benefit every bit as MLB is run for the benefit of the big markets. Sell those dreams of riches, Scott!
There’s nothing pathetic or manipulative about it. They made their offer and the arbitrators will decide. Just normal baseball business here.
Your worrying about the guy possibly only getting $19 million this year is what’s pathetic.
@Hammerin’ Hank
There’s truly aggrieved labor and there’s annoyed labor. I’d count Skubal among the latter.
Not exactly where I’d be drawing a line in the sand on workers’ rights. Especially, as I said, those workers don’t bargain for the entire group, just the right of the upper 5% to get as much as possible, well beyond their actual contribution to a team winning. Even Skubal needs a bunch of good defenders behind him and some hitters to drive in runs, does he not?
If you’re truly this upset that he’ll miss out on the $32MM figure, you should be more than willing to pay him the $13MM yourself. It’s easy to suggest what players should be paid when it’s not your money. It’s a totally different story when it is.
@Avory…the second paragraph is a perfect argument. Spot on assessment.
Not exactly simping but close. Though JoeBrady in particular is an infamous bootlicker.
The people who are calling out Detroit for being “cheap” in their arbitration offer to Skubal are the same people who were calling the Illitch’s dumb for paying Miguel Cabrera way too much money in the final 2-3 seasons of his long term contract. This is how baseball works, fellas.
It’s also how players feelings get hurt and it’s part of the process too. It’s the kind of thing that makes guys walk, Of course depending on whether they really had a shot at re signing him anyway. Which by the way I have reservations about. He’s definitely getting traded now. They’ll get way more than a QO pick.
Why are you worrying about what other people will earn? Hypocritical much?
You meant to say the manipulation of teams by MLB players.
Beautiful simpery. Nobody is siding with anyone. Many are jealous of Skubal’s situation… and the owners situation. You’d be horrible at a Christmas party.
@Joe
The player has no leverage unless he refuses to show up to ST which is something you rarely see in baseball but happens often in the NFL. So no leverage, no manipulation.
@,AI
I’m confused. Are you more pro player or owner? Or rather are you suggesting we need to look at it from the owners perspective.? Please explain if you don’t mind. I’m asking honestly, no agenda.
@wade
In this case I think we can all agree that $19 was too low of the starting point of negotiations. They had to know that was going to be rejected. But in general, the owners aren’t just worked as it 1 players salary but all 40 on the roster, the stadium employees, the stadium expenses. what they have to pay in general and their shareholders, etc. It’s a business and businesses are usually team like a business.
Avory
There’s truly aggrieved labor and there’s annoyed labor. I’d count Skubal among the latter.
==========================
IMO, I wouldn’t even agree that this is annoyed labor. Annoyed labor is when you are forced to do something that you never agreed to in your hiring contract.
I’ve done things all the time that I didn’t like. I did them because I agreed to do them when I was hired.
Steinbrenner2728
Though JoeBrady in particular is an infamous bootlicker.
======================
I simply point out facts. Skubal agreed to the process via his union management. If you think there should be a CBA, but not everyone needs to abide by it, then you are completely out to lunch.
Avory – there is no balanced discussion to be had. The reality is plain – MLB teams keep pitcher salaries artificially low during arbitration to protect their billionaire owner profits. The end.
Hammerin – nah. It’s pathetic and manipulative. It’s a slap in the face to Skubal. Detroit is a garbage org.
KnicksFanCavsFan
The player has no leverage unless he refuses to show up to ST
======================
As it should be. The world is a better place when we have mutually agreed upon rules, and everyone abides by them. It makes -0- difference to me who wins.
WadeBoggs
The reality is plain – MLB teams keep pitcher salaries artificially low during arbitration
==================
That’s the same in every arbitration. Someone wants to receive more: someone wants to pay less.
Ah, ignoring the specificity of the situation and hiding behind basic generalities. How lickish of boot.
Arbitration transcript
Skubal: Steak!
Tigger: Pizza.
Skubal: Lobster!
Tigger: Pizza Pizza.
More importantly, does this limit the Tigers ability to pursue the remaining big name free agents like Bregman?
Not knowing if they’ll be spending another 13 million seems like it could be a prohibitor.
I honestly think his reps did him a bit of a disservice filing that high. If it makes it to arbitration, the arbiter goes on the preponderance of the evidence. I think k DET will have an easier time justifying $19m than skubal’s side can justify $31 million. They’ve honestly put him in a bad position.
People are looking at what he deserves. Not the system that exists which is agreed to in the CBA.
My guess is based off of his 10m last year they won’t value in arb greater than 25m, which mean the tigers will likely win this case
I have no idea why people cannot understand this. Skubal, via the union, has agreed to this exact process.
JB
The union, which Skubal has no choice but to be a part of if he wants to play in MLB, agreed to this process.
He’s bound by it. He didn’t agree to it.
He’s bound by it. He didn’t agree to it.
=======================
If you want to phrase it that way, I’m fine with it. Maybe it is more accurate. But that’s the nature of being in a union. I remember a good friend of mine was beside himself when the doorman’s union went on strike. Half his salary was in tax-free, take-home tips. He was going to lose thousands just to earn another 10 cents an hour.
But he had to abide by the union rules.
It seems Skubal’s time with the Tigers might be over.
Probably but not because of this.
I mean this probably means it was always going to be over.
Not many people had him being a tiger on 2027 and many suspected a trade. People have felt this way for year years.
So they havent felt this way for minutes? Okay. Gotcha.😂
I agree. If you think you have a shot of signing him, you’d be more generous. If you think you have no chance, you might as well save the $13M.
They have a real good chance of paying the $32 million and losing him anyway. No savings.
Less salary equals more value back in a trade. It’s pretty standard stuff from the Tigers, especially if they are out of contention around the trade deadline.
Boras is more than likely providing a window into next years negotiations, not trying to win an arbitration decision.
Skubal has relationships with the team and will most likely maintain contact and allow the Tigers the opportunity to match his best FA offer, even if he is traded. He may even sign for a nominally less amount in Detroit if both offers are above the richest SP contact in history.
Tigers have next to zero payroll commitments. If Skubal posts similar number or wins a third Cy with the team, it would be very surprising if Detroit wasn’t in the bidding to the absolute bitter end, and it would be an absolute tragedy if a work stoppage interrupted a generational pitching career.
With all the young hitting throughout the organization, Detroit is certainly built to carry a high dollar ace, while cashing in on young cheap production at the plate.
See where they are at just before the deadline. This is good business from the Tigers. Imagine the haul just for a few months.
Come on Detroit, how many of these type of pitchers exist? Mahalo
Not everyone is as generous as you just handing out free $ for the heck of it.
*earned money
Aloha AI, I’m actually very conservative on spending and believe in a meritocracy, one earns their salary. Maybe Tarik’s $32mil is very high, but I thought after a 6.5 WAR season going into his walk off year, I thought Detroit would offer at least $25mil. Anyhow, his time their may be coming to an end. Mahalo
When his first arbitration was 2 million and some that pretty much determined his fate. 10m arb 2. To go from 10 to 32 is drastic and not seen before I believe. So unless arbiter stinks at their job or paid off or something Detroit should win this case. Skubal as a free agent would get 32 easily but because of his arb 1 and 2 he is limited.
KG, that would have been logical.
If you read the comparisons in the article though, DeGrom got his league leading largest jump after only 1 Cy young while Skubal is coming of back to back Cy youngs, and David Price who leads all pitchers in total arbitration earnings has not thrown a pitch in baseball in over a decade now. If the arbiter quickly writes off an unprecedented player for asking for an unprecedented amount it will only further fuel the MLBPA during CBA negotiations next winter, as they already see arbitration as a way to artificially lower player salaries. I don’t think this will be such a locked in decision and the Tigers would be better served at this point to trade Skubal before they make even more of a mess of this.
Teams are very reluctant to set precedents on arb settlements since that is how future arb decisions are made. So blowing well past Skubal’s projected arb number ($17.8) wasn’t something likely.
1st cy young took him from 2 something to 10. If he wanted the 2nd cy young to take him to 32 he should have went for 15 instead of 10 previous arbitration. Anything can happen but odds are with Detroit.
Just FYI, Dave Price pitched for the Dodgers in 2022. His arb salary was over a decade ago.
Maybe I’m in a very small minority here, but I think the arbitration system works just fine. Yes, it is something that lowers players salaries, but don’t most businesses work like this? I know mine does. I work for a multi billion dollar industry and our wages (I’m hourly) are locked in for 4 years. Period. Doesn’t matter how hard you work or how good you are at your job. And maybe my thinking is skewed because I never want to see baseball do anything similar to what the NFL does. I hate the rookie contract stuff. 4th year options, 5th year options…set wages depending on when you were drafted. It just pits all draftees against each other and forces them to ask and want more. Maybe I’m way off, but that’s always been my feelings. And I really don’t want to see guys “holding out” while already under contract.
Fair response. You swayed me.
@Formerly Depressed Mets Fan
Huh? Arbitration artificially lowers player salaries? There’s nothing “artificial” about it. It’s the way the system was designed as a part of the collective bargaining process. Since you’re a Mets fan, I gather you’d like nothing better than to get your hands on the Tarik Skubals of the world quicker, but arbitration is a part of the process which provides some measure of competitive balance. Something you evidently care little about.
The arbitration process, while flawed, is one of the few processes that exists to provide some measure of competitive balance in the sport.
Where arbitration lags is in what tools the arbitrators use to make decisions. Instead of employing archaic tools like saves, RBI’s, or even Cy Youngs, start using the analytics teams use to evaluate players which would help players get the salaries they deserve based on their real contributions, not just counting stats.
To Formerly Depressed Mets Fan, you’re spot on. They just dogged their best player, and sent a very clear to all their other players.
Skubal has been awesome, and should be rewarded as such.
* a very clear MESSAGE..
@BrisbaneGreg
Hilarious. You act like these are children on the playground, not professionals who understand how this business works.
“don’t most businesses work like this? I know mine does. I work for a multi billion dollar industry and our wages (I’m hourly) are locked in for 4 years. Period. Doesn’t matter how hard you work or how good you are at your job.”
“I’m getting screwed, so others should get screwed”
Always a bad argument
“Arbitration artificially lowers player salaries? There’s nothing “artificial” about it.”
It’s not free market. Thus it’s artificial.
Get competitive balance by increased revenue sharing and a payroll floor not by limiting player salaries
It’s not getting screwed. I’m not getting screwed either. Not by a long shot. Now, I’m speaking on my behalf (and the behalf of most people who work in industries such as mine). There would be absolutely no way to do wages in any other manner. You can’t do it off performance. We can earn other opportunities that offer higher pay based on knowledge and performance, but it isn’t a huge difference. Basing wages on performance (I’m, again, speaking on my behalf) would create major division between the employees. There are far too many employees to police day to day and it would create a buddy system. My supervisor likes me, so I’m going to get paid more than you even though you are equally as good of an employee. Heck…we had a company meltdown just a couple of years ago because they changed the vacation policy to where new employees could potentially have as much vacation time as employees who been here for over 20 years. The major difference between us common folk and the Tarik Skubal’s of the world is that what we do every day isn’t nationally televised or recorded. Every single aspect of our performance isn’t tracked. Skubal’s is. It’s far far easier to police his performance on the job. So treating his salary based on performance makes a ton of sense. That said…MLB, at the end of the day, is a business and it’s ran as such. So if you think the arbitration process screws players, then that is your prerogative. In some cases, I would agree with you. However, I think it keeps the competitive balance of the league in check.
jzw
” I think the arbitration system works just fine. Yes, it is something that lowers players salaries, ”
“It’s not getting screwed. I’m not getting screwed either. ”
Ok
Like I said…MLB is a business and like most businesses, you have to work your way up to top dollar. Whatever solution you think you have, I guarantee there are holes where people are still going to get screwed.
Here is why Skubal filed for that amount:
“…the collective bargaining agreement allows players who are one year away from free agency to compare themselves not only to past arbitration precedents, but to free agents as well. There’s ample precedent for free agent pitchers commanding upwards of $30MM annually, with some late-career aces pulling more than $40MM per season on short-term deals.”
The reason he has a legitimate shot at winning his case is that of all the pitchers to earn $30+ million in FA, Skubal’s ERA was by far the lowest. For pitchers arbitration is almost entirely about 3 things, IP compared to the league that year, ERA, and strike outs. Awards are also taken into account. Having consecutive CY Young Awards will also be in his favor.
Not saying he will absolutely get his ask, but there is a really good chance he will.
That you understand so little about how arbitration works that you think the arbitrator would have to be paid off to follow the rules agreed upon in the CBA tells us that at best you are not a serious student of the game and should be ignored. At worst you are a troll we should all ignore.
Skubal is walking after next year. Too many other places in MLB willing to pay his asking price…. At least 25 are located in FAR better cities
Anyone who’s worked for a union knows you don’t get what the veterans get just because you are good or work hard. You get that pay when you’re a veteran
2 CY Young awards is pretty “drastic.”
You’re not a small minority – the system works, sadly those that comment don’t shell out the 19 or 32 million so are playing/commenting using « their Monopoly money ».
Reality is either sum is enormous for a player when you consolidate how many games he affects … at best one fifth at worst (injury occurs pre season) zero. That’s an investment which the hearing should take into account.
Unlike the other names mentioned be it Vlad to Soto they affect results at least half the games if not all of them (that’s more a Cal Ripken type player)… these are equally important stats than 2 Cy Youngs’
FRS
“when you consolidate how many games he affects … at best one fifth at worst (injury occurs pre season) zero. That’s an investment which the hearing should take into account.
Unlike the other names mentioned be it Vlad to Soto they affect results at least half the games ”
Batters faced/PA’s 2025
Skubal 748
Guerrero 680
Soto 715
“sadly those that comment don’t shell out the 19 or 32 million so are playing/commenting using « their Monopoly money ».”
It doesn’t have to be my money to understand what his value is compared to other players.
Avory
The arbitration process, while flawed
================================
I would’ve even agree the process is flawed. If both parties, free of duress, agree to the process, then whatever you and I think of it, is meaningless.
JuanUribeJazzHands
It’s not free market.
================
Both parties agreed to arbitration. How is that not free market?
Joe,
Skubal to asked for that amount because in the current CBA a player going through arbitration for the 3rd time must be compared to similar free agent’s compensation. Skubal is the first 3rd time eligible player that has stats this good.
Who had comparable stats? Verlander, Scherzer, Wheeler, Cole, Snell, and Burnes. How much did they make as an AAV? More than $32 million and several over $40 million.
The Tigers should have taken that into account. They very well may lose this case.
I think both the players and owners hate arbitration. It lowers salaries for elite players and it removes cost certainty for the owners
Soto got $30M. Yes, Skubal doesn’t hit, but the 2-time Cy Young winner should surely get that $32M. Especially when David Price got almost $20M in 2015
I dunno what will happen but I would bet on Detroit if I had to. They should know what they are doing. His arb 1 is what really matters. That sets the foundation for the other arbs.
Skenes won Roy placed high in cy young and won cy young all before arb so he should get 30m arbitration.
Skubal 2m then 10m so 20m seems like the next logical jump. Not 32m. Arbitration most likely sides with Detroit as they should.
Logical if he didn’t have two Cy Young awards to his name. Frankly that’s a good deal for the Tigers and if they had any intention of resigning him (pretty clear that hasn’t been in the cards) this is not the way to go about it. Never heard a player come away from an arbitration hearing happy with the team.
His first 3 years were worth 2m and some. A cy young got him 10m arb 2. Arbiter has to pick either 19 or 32. If Skubal agents can show examples of players jumping from 10m to 32 or slightly less he will win. If he can’t Detroit will win unless arbiter wants to throw history out the window.
They were just saying on WXYT that no player has lost in arbitration and resigned with that team.
If you wanted to sign with that team and they wanted you well you would do extension. Some sign as free agents. I would guess more players teams agree to salary vs fighting it out in arbitration. And even the ones that do agree the player more often leaves in free agency. Didn’t research but seems pretty safe. Many teams trade players before they become free agents. Doesn’t seem like a large sample size. And of that size I would think teams would only be interested in signing a small portion of those players.
AI GM,
Who says an arbitrator has to follow history? You’re describing a formula based off the average pitcher, not a prodigy. By your reasoning there would be no reason for arbitration as there’s a defined formula.
Not saying Skubal is worth $32M. But an arbitrator might (at least 2 of 3)
Precedent is a thing. I think. I didn’t create it. I’m not our supreme leader. Could they go rogue sure. I’m in the business of probable over possible.
They do follow history though.
@outinleftfield
Relevance? He was NEVER signing with the Tigers.
Arbitrators don’t give two hoots who is a “prodigy.”
He’s only a prodigy because he’s pitching in an American League where there is a current paucity of great pitching.
Is Gerritt Cole a “prodigy”? How about Garrett Crochet?
That’s how awards work. You have a great year when no one else does, or you have few competitors. You could have the same year next year and someone else is better.
Two years of fantastic pitching don’t even get you into the Hall of Fame. And it sure as heck isn’t going to sway an arbitrator to change the way they’ve done things for years.
RB
“Not saying Skubal is worth $32M”
Skubal is worth well more than $32 million
Maybe not in the BS arbitration model, but on the free market
You keep getting that wrong. Skubal doesn’t have show examples of players that jumped from $10 million to $32 million. His agent won’t even talk about precedents for arbitration case raises that were before the current CBA. He just has to show how Skubal’s performance compares to free agents that have made the money he is asking for or more. That is what is in the CBA as the rules for 3rd time arbitration cases. The arbitrator won’t be throwing history out the window, they will be following the rules for arbitration in the most recent CBA. It seems you need to read the document because you have no clue what you are talking about.
Here is why Skubal filed for that amount:
“…the collective bargaining agreement allows players who are one year away from free agency to compare themselves not only to past arbitration precedents, but to free agents as well. There’s ample precedent for free agent pitchers commanding upwards of $30MM annually, with some late-career aces pulling more than $40MM per season on short-term deals.”
The reason he has a legitimate shot at winning his case is that of all the pitchers to earn $30+ million in FA, Skubal’s ERA was by far the lowest. For pitchers arbitration is almost entirely about 3 things, IP compared to the league that year, ERA, and strike outs. Awards are also taken into account. Having consecutive CY Young Awards will also be in his favor.
Not saying he will absolutely get his ask, but there is a really good chance he will.
He might have. He has said he wanted to stay in Detroit on more than one occasion. After this? No way he stays.
Wait
Are you suggesting that AI GM doesn’t know much more about this than Scott Boras?
RagingBull
You’re describing a formula based off the average pitcher, not a prodigy.
===========================
I doubt the arbiter will put too much faith in what the average pitcher gets paid. There are plenty of cases for AS-level SPs like Price that he can consider. Price got a $5.75M raise. I believe Lincecum never received more than a $5M raise, and he also had B2B CY’s.
If Skubal was traded to my RS, and all it took was $320M/8 to extend him, I’d drive him to Boston myself. But that’s not how arbitration works.
JuanUribeJazzHands
Skubal is worth well more than $32 million. Maybe not in the BS arbitration model, but on the free market
=====================
As a RS fan, I’d pay Skubal $40M and not blink an eye. But the owners and players have agreed to this model. That’s all that counts.
Joe, the owners and players agreed to use a comparison to free agent compensation for 3rd time arbitration eligible players.
Who are the comparable free agent stating pitchers the arbitration panel must compare Skubal to and how much did they get in AAV?
Its more than $32 million which is why Skubal may win this case.
His arb 1 or 2 doesn’t matter as much as the clause that says in his last arbitration year he can be compared to free agents and what they made. He has performed better than any of the high price free agent starters did in their walk year.
If you don’t understand this stuff, just stay quiet next time something like this comes up.
BP
“His arb 1 or 2 doesn’t matter as much as the clause that says in his last arbitration year he can be compared to free agents and what they made.”
Citation requested
Yes. He can use free agents as a point of reference. But where do you get that that matters more than his arb 1 and arb 2?
He is right. The CBA says that for 3rd time arb players that comparison to free agents takes precedence over earlier arbitration awards.
There have been no 3rd time arb eligible players that have had the statistics to back up asking for money beyond what historical norms were other than Soto and Ohtani since this rule was put in place.
It is my understanding that prior to 2021 this was not possible because it was not included in CBA.
Soto got that because the large markets drive salaries out of sight. Let’s not kid anyone here.
With the RSN fiasco blowing up in MLBs face with nine teams, it is no surprise there is a chasm here. But he will probably get it and the Tigers will have to trade him to a large market.
He doesn’t play or affect as many games as Soto – 32 max v 162 max. Even if he did win those 32 he is reliant on those positional players to score 1 run. The opposite isn’t true for the 130 *other games he doesn’t play*
You are comparing apples and oranges, both fruit but not the same …
Not good. Him losing 13M in the hearing won’t be a good thing for the Tigers. It’s always been ridiculous these can’t go to mediation. An either/or arbitration serves no one.
That’s crazy. A 32 million salary is insane though.
Not really. When the benchmark for pre-arb players is $31M and he’s been the best pitcher on the planet the past two years. It’s a good deal for the Tigers just based on the value he’s provide me to them over those two years they’re still coming out on top.
Kinda likely he loses here despite the Cy’s. But that isn’t great for Detroit.
Maybe this will spur talk of an extension in conjunction with an improved offer for ‘27.
12m cheaper is great for Detroit
This guarantees that he will not sign an extension. It says loud and clear I want out of this place.
What is says is the tigers value him alot less than he values himself..and that is why he wont be signing an extension with them…im sure he likes Detroit as a place just fine
It doesn’t say anything about how Detroit values him. Has nothing to do about value. They are simply trying to pay an employee as little as possible like most companies do. If he was willing to do an extension I imagine Detroit would have no issue with valuing him at 32m a year.
You don’t know what he likes.
He’s not signing an extension regardless. He’s with Boras. They could offer him $32 million tomorrow and he’ll still be heading for the big free agency payday.
Exactly.
Anyone who says this has any bearing on Skubal’s present or future negotiations with Detroit is completely out of tune with what’s going on here.
When a player hires Scott Boras, everyone knows the deal: that player is out to get the biggest bag he can get regardless of team circumstances. I don’t blame Tarik for doing that any more than I fault Detroit for moving forward knowing Skubal’s going elsewhere in 2027.
There’s nothing Detroit can do to keep him given the realities of baseball in that market. Oh, they can find the money to pay him, but can they also put a competitive team around him? What do they do if Tarik blows out his arm or loses the effectiveness upon which the contract is based? ALL the risk is transferred to the club when this kind of free agent contract is signed. The teams who will sign him can swallow hard if something bad happens, sweep it under the rug, and move on like nothing happened.
Sorry, but in flyover country–excepting maybe the Cubs–this is not our reality.
I’m pretty sure this is more than Soto.
You’re right 2 letters more – but impossible to compare as they’re not same age, positon or even stats wise – let alone intangibles like defense or potential
Extension? haha
if this is the case, the Tigers must know they have no chance of resigning him. All goodwill will be lost between the two parties. They should just trade him now.
Goodwill is irrelevant. He will sign wherever he can make the most $. And he is at fault. He has the ridiculous # not Detroit.
Who are you to tell someone that thier self worth is ridiculous?…thats pretty ridiculous in and of itself
There are a lot of silly people think that players getting paid their value are the reason why ticket prices are high. It’s like complaining that Beyonce’s, Sabrina Carpenter’s, and Taylor Swift’s earnings are undeserved and are the cause of high ticket prices when Live Nation and Ticketmaster are in the business of squeezing every penny out of fans regardless of what they pay the talent, just like MLB owners.
Ridiculous that your mind believes that’s what I meant.
He’s not going to win. Detroit’s offer is right in the ballpark of what he’s projected to receive. His $32 million offer is way over what he’s due to get, given his past arbitration salaries.
Who said anything about ticket prices here?
@Poolhalljunkies
Pretty sure the arbitrator will tell everyone who’s ridiculous with his ruling.
{Hint: it won’t be the Tigers.]
Self worth or value isn’t the issue , it’s also (for every sportsman/woman) being the best and getting rewards (trophies or titles).
Does playing in Detroit do that ? Sometimes (rarely in this world) you can accept a lower financial deal for an ulterior goal – see Ohtani when he signed for the Angels or even the deferred deal to allow the Dodgers’ payroll flexibility to win 2 straight WS. Unlike Tennis or Boxing it’s not the individual that wins the game or the series but a group that works together. Otherwise highest payrolls would automate win ever sporting event – they don’t – be it in Soccer, Baseball or even Cycling – money helps but isn’t ,thankfully the only guarantee of success !
are in the business of squeezing every penny out of
===================
That applies to the entire planet. No one ever says ‘you’re paying me too much’, or ‘are you sure you want to pay that much for my house/car/etc.’.
The Tigers want the lowest reasonable price.
Skubal wants the highest reasonable price.
I have no issue with either position.
Here is why Skubal filed for that amount:
“…the collective bargaining agreement allows players who are one year away from free agency to compare themselves not only to past arbitration precedents, but to free agents as well. There’s ample precedent for free agent pitchers commanding upwards of $30MM annually, with some late-career aces pulling more than $40MM per season on short-term deals.”
The reason he has a legitimate shot at winning his case is that of all the pitchers to earn $30+ million in FA, Skubal’s ERA was by far the lowest. For pitchers arbitration is almost entirely about 3 things, IP compared to the league that year, ERA, and strike outs. Awards are also taken into account. Having consecutive CY Young Awards will also be in his favor.
Not saying he will absolutely get his ask, but there is a really good chance he will.
He has maybe a 25% chance to win. It seems more like a statement about the process, or letting everyone know he is going to want $700M in free agency. He is not going to beat Ohtani and Soto in arbitration money. He won’t be beating them in his next contract either. He will probably set the record for pitchers in that regard though.
If the arbitration board is forced by rule to compare his stats last season to starting pitchers in their final year before becoming a free agent, Skubal has an extremely good chance of winning.
His comparables are Cole, Wheeler, and Snell. Verlander and Scherzer prior to their $40 million deals as well. Yamamoto to some extent but because he was an MLB rookie not much.
I think it would be pretty cool if he wins. Just don’t think the odds are in his favor.
ef1txx
I agree. The Mets will be happy to take him off your hands. Who do you want? Don’t ask for McLean or Tong and we can do business.
McLean is fine, but Tong is probably part of the package.
They had no chance anyway.
Adios, playoff Tigers. We barely knew ya!
Rough time for Tigers fans. He’s the main reason why they have such a bright future. Losing him would be a HUGE step back for their contending hopes fs! Sure, you can always trade him and hope for a haul, but being so close to FA, doubt it’ll be a big enough asset to replace the sting of losing him
It’s one player. Pirates have Skenes look what that has done for them so far. Angels Trout Ohtani.
Pirates haven’t built enough to surround Skenes with more talent. That’s on management and ownership.
The Ilitch still owns the Tigers. Yes, I know it’s a similar situation to the Yankees and Hal, but I would have thought that after years of struggling to rebuild after the V-Mart/Miggy days, finally assembling a team with a bright future would spur them to start building around arguably the best pitcher in the game. Now, they’re probably going to end up losing him and restart another rebuild (they don’t have another player even close to the same tier as Skubal, pitching or hitting-wise.
They won’t rebuild. Have a great farm system. No need to rebuild. Plenty of teams who didn’t have the best or 2nd best pitcher in baseball have made the playoffs and even won the world series. Detroit has a bright future with some elite blue chip hitting prospects.
? Tarik reached #4 on the Tigers and #24 on the MLB propect list.
Mize, Torque, Green all ahead of Tarik Skubal…..
Currently have Rainer 37th. They obviously aren’t very good at their job.
Still #24 overall was quite high.
The Saber-toothed Superfife: Where players were ranked on prospect lists is completely meaningless once they reach MLB.
They were already going to lose him. This arbitration case has nothing to do with that. He’s a Boras client, so it’s adios at the end of the season.
Only way I’ll accept Bregman not returning to Boston is if they can get Skubal
chuckyboy1217: What you would or wouldn’t accept is just your opinion. It has no bearing on how the Red Sox operate.
He made $10 million in his 2nd year of arbitration. The Tigers are almost doubling his salary to $19 million. Boras is getting greedy as usual and want 3X his 2025 salary. I will be so happy when we get a salary floor and a salary cap after the 2026 season. The players will be locked out until they agree.
Rooting against kids and for billionaires is certainly an interesting take.
Andy
Did you write “rooting against kids”? That’s amusing. Set me straight: millionaire athletes good, billionaire businessmen bad?
@Joel: “Set me straight: millionaire athletes good, billionaire businessmen bad?”
In the specific case of athletes vs. sports team owners? I’m siding with the millionaire athletes every time. No one pays to see an owner. We pay to see the players. And many of the “billionaire businessmen” are either nepo-babies like John Fisher or shady AF businessmen like Steve Cohen (I love him as an owner, but as a businessman he’s almost literally a fraud).
Fan demand sets the prices for tickets and concessions and TV contracts. I’d rather the athletes get a bigger slice of that revenue than profit-maximizing d-bags like Bob Nutting.
You’re trying to frame this around the straw man of “wealth = bad”. It’s not intrinsically bad. In this specific case, though, it’s so much easier to root for the players than the owners.
He used the word, “kids”, to be manipulative, like they do in the newspapers.
Lots of tragedy in the world. If the newspaper wants to make the smear, they will make sure to tell you the number of children killed. It’s sick. Started about 15-20 years ago. It’s a pretty disgusting manipulative tactic.
Yes. Obviously. Yes. In the battle of millionaires vs billionaires, side with the millionaires. The every day, MLBtraderumors reading, middle class American is a lot closer to Skubal (both in terms of net worth and talent) than they are to these out of touch billionaire owners. Why would anyone root against the poor Dominican kid or the middle class, middle America kid over some liver spotted, tax evading POS?
Think of the children!!!
Joel
“millionaire athletes good, billionaire businessmen bad?”
Yes
S-t
“they will make sure to tell you the number of children killed”
Yes. Disgusting to report on children being killed
Rooting against kids and for billionaires is certainly an interesting take.
=========================
As if rooting for someone that could probably get a $300M-$400M extension today if he wanted to.is an interesting take.
“So who are you rooting for today”
I’m rooting for Skubal, because he is just like me, some poor guy only worth $400,000,000.
As opposed to the billionaires who are worth…how much?
AndyWarpath
As opposed to the billionaires who are worth…how much?
===================
I assume at least a billion. It’s of no concern to mine. If all you had was a measly $10M, I still wouldn’t be concerned.
If my RS signed him for $300M/8, I would celebrate. I wouldn’t spend two seconds thinking about whether this was fair to Skubal or Henry.
It’s probably more about making a point and aiming big hoping to get lucky. He could file at 20 21 and have a better chance of winning but what’s a million or 2 when you are about to get hundreds and maybe you get lucky and get 13m more.
Exactly. It’s just another way to raise Boras’s profile at the short-term expense of the player. Boras tells Skubal, “Don’t worry, the five or ten million you lose here we’ll make up later. Meanwhile, I get my name in the headlines. So do me a solid and ask for the moon.”
How about something more nefarious? I think Boras was unhappy with the union management last time. Maybe Boras purposely sets too high a target, so Skubal gets screwed a little, and Boras uses that to his advantage.
Avory: Believe me. Boras doesn’t need to do anything to raise his profile. You apparently have no clue how it works.
Boras advised Skubal to ask for that amount because in the current CBA a player going through arbitration for the 3rd time must be compared to the compensation earned by free agents with similar stats. Skubal is the first 3rd time eligible player that has stats this good.
Who had comparable stats? Verlander, Scherzer, Wheeler, Cole, Snell, and Burnes. How much did they make as an AAV? More than $32 million and several over $40 million. That is the level of compensation the arbitration panel will have to use in determining Skubal’s award in this case.
The Tigers should have taken that into account. Skubal may very well win his case.
Don’t hold your breath. Players have said they are willing to talk about both and owners said no because it would require transparency about their finances and 100% revenue sharing. Greedy bastage owners are not willing to let anyone know how much money they are actually making.
i genuinely could not care less about these owners. In my opinion the fans/city should own the team anyways. To call a player greedy for negotiating for a higher salary is honestly gross. We watch baseball because of players like Skubal not to see GMs keep their total salaries under some made up cap. I’d rather never watch another baseball game than have the salary cap implemented and players not paid their worth.
I promise you if healthy Skubal will play baseball whether it’s for 19 or 32 million.
Weird fan. Most people who watch mlb watch it if players made 100 grand or 100 million. Who gives a it what another man is making? Well you apparently. Most people have bigger things to worry about that what other people are making $ wise. Skubal ain’t giving them his $.
AIGM
“Who gives a it what another man is making?”
People who care about things like fairness, equality, justice
Worry about yourself and your family. Skubal is going to be just fine even if he has to get by with only 19 million this season.
AIGM
“Worry about yourself and your family.”
I don’t need to tell me what I should worry about
Again, the ability to care about people other than yourself is a positive, not a negative
JuanUribe:
That’s left-wing drivel. Equality? People aren’t equal, never have been, and never will be. Maybe taking some homeless people into your house or apartment is something to consider. Don’t you care about them?
Joel
Muted
JuanUribeJazzHands
the ability to care about people other than yourself is a positive,
=====================
There use to be a older black woman, working beer concessions at Yankee Stadium. She had a smile that would make you think she was doing God’s work.
Her I cared about. Someone making 1000x her salary, maybe I’m being cold-hearted, but I am less concerned.
Now do the Ilitch family
And then a family in, say. rural India
JuanUribeJazzHands
Now do the Ilitch family And then a family in, say. rural India
===================
Easy.
Someone with a billion $$$, maybe I’m being cold-hearted, but I am less concerned.
The poor folks the Bronx, them I cared about.
They’d probably get paid more if the took a percentage of the gross.
Maybe da peeple should own the factories and restaurants too? Why stop with the sports teams?
Cards99: Your answer to perceived problems in a private entity is for the government to take over?
scottbour: Why are only agents and players greedy? Team owners are equally greedy.
What is wrong with anyone trying to maximize the amount of money they make?
Nothing. It’s the essence of capitalism.
Yup, and jealousy is the essence of left wing thinking.
Joel from NY: Why do you feel the need to bring politics into this?
I don’t like politics on sports blogs, not at all. I am responding to JuanUribe, who brought it up.
WadeBoggsWildRide
What is wrong with anyone trying to maximize the amount of money they make?
========================
Absolutely nothing. But you’ve summarized the issue perfectly. That statement applies to both sides. I can easily interpret that as:
What is wrong with Ilitch trying to maximize the amount of money they make?
Or did you mean What is wrong with Skubal trying to maximize the amount of money they make?
Alfred E Neuman
Team owners are equally greedy.
====================
Neither side is greedy. Both sides want a deal in their best interests. Same as you. Same as I.
Indeed. Same difference.
What did mlbtr project for this?
With it being 19 or 32, if the ‘real’ number is let’s say 25 and the arbitrator has to round down to 19 that’s going to be a really tough situation for Skubal.
Lose lose situation and it’s his last arb so they aren’t going to get a 2 year deal done. Brutal
Projection was 17.8
Swartz uses an algorithm which does not take into account the rules that apply in this case.
Skubal is a 3rd time arbitration eligible player in the current CBA it states that the arbitration panel must take into account the compensation for free agent starting pitchers with similar stats.
Who had comparable stats? Verlander, Scherzer, Wheeler, Cole, Snell, Burnes, and a couple others. How much did they make as an AAV? More than $32 million and several over $40 million. That is the level of compensation the arbitration panel will have to use in determining Skubal’s award in this case.
The Tigers should have taken that into account and didn’t. Skubal may very well win his case.
Baseballisthebest
Swartz uses an algorithm which does not take into account the rules that apply in this case.
=====================
Care to supply some additional details? Schwartz is the best in the world. I project the RS salary situation based on FG contracts, and Schwartz’ projection. At the end of the year, the differences amount to almost nothing.
And you are saying that Schwartz is mis-interpreting the rules?
Wheeler can get 45mil yr with no Cy young’s and Detroit doesn’t want to pay the back to back winner 32mil smh
What Detroit wants is irrelevant. They are a business. They do what they need to do. They will likely win decision.
AI GM can do nothing but simp simp simp for management on every comment that’s pro-Skubal.
I’m a grown adult. I don’t root for other people’s annual earnings. If he gets 19 or 32 makes no difference to me. Just the betting odds are on 19.
WadeBoggs
AI GM can do nothing but simp simp simp for management
=======================
I’m not sure why you need to be insulting. I think Mark Twain said it best when he said “The money is tainted. It taint yours and it taint mine’
Brady – if you’re insulted by being labeled a simp for management, seems to me that you need to look inwards at why that offends you. The Tigers are low-balling the best pitcher in the AL. That’s pathetic. The end.
They win the battle of arbitration then lose the war when he walks for nothing after the season.
They won’t lose anything. It seemed for awhile he wasn’t going to be a tiger in 2027. Arbitration hearing should have zero to do with it. And if it would ypu wouldn’t want to invest that amount of.$ into him. They have a limited amount of $ to spend. They will simply spend it elsewhere.
He’s walking away with Boras no matter what happens here.
@lonniemac
They are not getting nothing. They are getting Skubal for the present year with a playoff quality team behind him. Then they’ll get a first round competitive balance pick and hope they develop another really good starting pitcher. That’s the way the process works.
Stop acting like the Tigers didn’t wring everything they possibly could out of a player they developed and could not control once his arb years are exhausted. What do you want small and medium markets to do with players they draft and develop? Get rid of them as soon as their free agency approaches? Oh, the big markets would just love that…
Avory – LOL @ “playoff quality team behind him”
Cy Youngs are irrelevant. Wheeler is a great pitcher regardless of how many he’s won. They’re for fans to argue about.
Hank – again you miss the mark. He won two in a row. He should get a bigger raise than a guy who won one. Cy Youngs are not meaningless at all.
That Wheeler got $45 million is a factor in Skubal asking for $32 million. Arbitration panels now must take into account what free agents with similar stats made in AAV for cases involving players in their 3rd time through arbitration. For Skubal the comparables include Wheeler, Verlander, and Scherzer who all recieved more than $40 million. It also includes Cole, Snell, and Burnes who got more than $32 million.
19 was too low and 32 was too high, unless he wants to sign a long term contract now!
Embarrassing. I’m sure every premium free agent is watching this, enamored with how well Detroit is treating their star player.
How is $19MM for his last trip thru arb, not treating him well? Its a 90% raise!!!
Because it comes on the heels of paying your cy young winning pitcher only 10m, when there were 2 years of control left, and could’ve given a much fairer 2 year pact last offseason.
Do you know if a two-year deal was offered, or requested?
The free agents or their agents know how arbitration works and shouldn’t have any issue with this. And if they did they are mostly mercenaries and if Detroit pays them the most $ will gladly go there.
I could see a team going to $20M just to give him the record for pitchers. Throw him a bone. It would help with PR more than anything.
Great point. This is an awful look for a team that fell apart last year.
LOL! Like Bregman is going to turn down $200M because he feels bad that Skubal is not going to set a new record?
Embarrassing how?
The record in arb is under $20 mm. Detroit should have topped that with their offer. Being under, even less than a million under the record, gives the arbitrator something to think about. They either sign him long term before the hearing, or this is his last season in Detroit.
Are you saying Skubal doesn’t deserve to break that 11 year old record?
Price was coming off a 3.26 ERA season when he got paid that $19.75 million. By the Tigers, by the way.
Skubal is coming of back to back Cy Young awards and a 2.21 ERA. Skubal is better. He should get more money plus inflation. Just the increase for inflation would put it at approximately $27 million today.
Insults like this do not equal players signing long term. They equal players being gone at the end of the season without even giving the team a shot at making an offer.
@outinleftfield very well said, agree exactly with this.
I think OP is saying the exact opposite. A team offer above the Price record gives the arbiter one less point of comparison in Skubal’s favor. Thus that the arbiter is much more likely to side with the team at $20M than $19M, so a poor negotiating move by Detroit.
It’s because Price didn’t make 15 starts in 2023 like Skubal and not set himself up with a higher base. David Price made 32+ starts in all years in arb.
Did Price also run away with back to back Cy Youngs in the previous two arb years? Come on, man, comparing Price of that era to latter day Skubal is laughable.
MLB arbitration rules do not allow the panel to look back that far.
Players rarely sign extensions in their last arb year anyway – so close to it the lure of seeing what FA will offer makes sense.
But with the huge difference between the numbers here I think there is a path to some kind of deal with Detroit offering a bigger raise for ‘26 and a few added years at Cole money +.
I don’t expect it to happen though.
Skubal made $10.15M last year. Tigers offer nearly double, He is asking for triple. When Soto got $31M his previous year salary was $23M. Tripling a salary in arbitration is nearly unheard of, at least at the higher levels of arbitration.
That’s what people aren’t realizing
Yeah. I remember a situation the Mariners had a couple years ago where the filings were way off (not this extreme though), and it turned out they were finalizing a longer extension but just had to turn numbers in before the deadline.
The other thing fans refuse to accept is that arbitration contracts reflect more upon the 30 front offices collectively than they reflect upon the Tigers.
The record for a pitcher was 11 years ago at $19.74 million. Since then position players have been offered around $30 million. No top pitcher has gone to arbitration.
Skubal has 2 straight CY and is coming off a 2.21 ERA season which is quite a bit better than the 3.26 ERA that David Price got to set that record in 2015. Skubal deserves to break that record and by a large margin. Inflation puts that number at around $27 million.
Are you trying to say that Skubal doesn’t deserve to break that record or that pitchers don’t deserve as much as position players?
There is not a single arb agreement where the player is getting what they deserve on the open market. That’s not how it works.
Freezing a salary benchmark from 11yrs ago is not a definition of “working” either.
It doesn’t have as much to do with what other players have gotten as much as it has to do with your own year-to-year increases. If Romy Gonzalez hits 40 HRs this year, he still isn’t getting a $30M arbitration award.
Joe, not anymore. In the current CBA the arbitration proceedings for 3rd time eligible players is based on what comparable players made in AAV in the free agent market.
For Skubal the comparables include Wheeler, Verlander, and Scherzer who all recieved more than $40 million. It also includes Cole, Snell, and Burnes who got more than $32 million.
Outinleft: No top pitchers have gone to arbitration in 10 years?
Also Price was in his 4th Arb year.
Wade, I had to question that one myself. When I looked it up, he was right. No CY Young winning pitcher or qualifying starting pitcher that led his league in ERA has gone through an arbitration hearing. They all signed before that happened.
Oh wow that makes things more interesting for sure. Thanks for the added info.
Agreed but I think Detroit might have boned themselves. A $22 million (or something like that) filing figure would have made this an easier decision for the arbitrator in favor of Detroit. They’re so far apart right now that the door is open for Skubal’s number.
Same with the Price comparison. Next year’s salary is based off of last year’s salary.
Joe, As I pointed out, that is no longer the case. For 3rd time eligible players like Skubal they take into account free agent signings for comparable pitchers.
The question here is what percentage of a comparable free agent salary would they award? With no precedent it is hard to make a prediction. Have any other players significantly increased their award by citing free agent comparisons?
Its based on AAV.
No way he’s getting over 3x his 2025 salary. He worth that much, but going to a hearing for that seems like a losing battle. His reps must be hoping they try and “meet halfway”
A lesson in how to guarantee that a player will absolutely, positively will not resign with your team.
If they pay him the most $ he will gladly sign with them.
Skubal is going to lose. Arb is formulaic and he is way above the formula.
Can’t decide which is worse… turning down $19m or asking for $32m. This is simply a trip through arbitration for Skubal, not a FA contract negotiation. Save this nonsense for next year when he’s on the market. I hate rooting against players (agents, I guess), but the offer of $19m is decent. I suppose this is how it ends for Skubal. No one comes out of these looking great.
32 was high.
But $19m is an insult. Thats saying despite 11 years of wage inflation and general inflation, Skubal with the first back to back AL Cy Young since Pedro Martinez is worth that much less than David Price was in 2015.
But Price was coming of a $14 million contract in the prior year then got $19.75.
Could Detroit have offered $20 million to top that number? Probably yes. But their offer isn’t an insult. And I’m sure they would gladly settle on a number in the low 20’s to give him that record spiff.
Has it been reported what they offered? What they offered and what they filed could be different no. If he would have signed for 19.5 or 20 would they have not done so to avoid arbitration.
“But $19m is an insult”
Not an insult
But a broken system
Price was also 4th year of arbitration.
And I would imagine Detroit would have done 20m to make him feel better and avoid arbitration.
If Skubal wins he sets a higher floor for free agent negotiations. He has a very good chance of winning because 3rd time eligible players must be compared to free agents in arbitration.
For Skubal the comparables include Wheeler, Verlander, and Scherzer who all recieved more than $40 million. It also includes Cole, Snell, and Burnes who got more than $32 million.
Is Paul Skenes agent taking notes right now? 😂
Hopefully his agent already knows how terrible the odds are to jump 22 million in a single arbitration year. If not you need to get a new agent Paul.
Let’s both revisit the birth of the doily cot opera company.😂
I need to visit
@salary. I begrudge you for making me look up what you were talking about, only to find out you don’t know what you’re talking about.
It’s “D’Oyly Carte Opera Company”. It’s not a notable piece of history and I hate you for wasting my time to look it up. Adding this to my pro-euthanasia article.
LOL! Sorry to hurt your feelings. It was just a Family Guy reference spelled out from captions on youtube. 😂
Fair enough. Apology accepted.
Skubal has more than five years of service with back to back Cy Young based on two ERA titles, one Wins and one Ks. I think he has a good shot at winning because I think arbitrator will arrive at value closer to his number, based on other pre-arb top salaries.
@burly…I don’t see him winning. And I’m not saying that he doesn’t deserve it because, on the open market, he’d get more. However…this is a decision that sets a precedent. A major one that will ultimately effect the entire arbitration process as a whole. It’s extremely rare for the disparity in what the player wants and what the team is offering to be this large. If Skubal wins…it’s going to happen far more frequently and the competitive balance of the league is going to tank. Players of Skubal’s talent (such as Paul Skenes) are going to be traded to the large markets far earlier in the arbitration process because the smaller markets won’t be able to afford them. Not only does pricing the player out of small markets make them worse, but it also significantly lowers the players value in a trade further hurting the small markets.
The return for said players would also lower because the trading team has less leverage. If everyone knows you need to sell your car to pay your mortgage, they low-ball you.
$32 million for a 6.29 innings per start. No way! Also, pulled himself after 5 innings in game 5 of Detroit/Seattle playoff. Lucky to get $19 million.
He’s the best pitcher in baseball right now, maybe 1A behind Skenes. You’re cherry-picking two things to denigrate him and the first part (6.29 inning per start) is without context. He was third in the entire league in that stat.
LaN
I don’t understand why so many baseball fans seem to hate baseball players
Wow. Letting this get to even exchanging numbers seems like a huge unforced error by the organization.
Should they just caved and given him 10 to 13 million more out of goodness of their heart? I’ll go work for that company.
Depends if they want to sign him again or not. He’s only the best pitcher on earth.
You think he will take tens of millions less just because Detroit took him to arbitration? I don’t. Would I want a player who would prioritize a arbitration grudge over a city teammate fans? Who wasn’t smart enough or mentally strong enough to excuse a strictly business decision? No.
I don’t think he takes anything less when he reaches FA. I’m just saying Detroit likely improves their odds of retaining, again, the best pitcher on earth by not going to an arbitration hearing where they’re going to trash him. 25MM and he probably takes it. And if he stays healthy he’s worth a lot more than that.
It shouldn’t matter at all. Unless he is a complete idiot or psycho he realizes Detroit done exactly as expected and should have done and other teams would have done the same. All he had to do was type in his name arbitration projection or ask his agent. Why there is a saying nothing personal just business.
No but you don’t let it get to this point is what he’s saying. When you realize it’s that big of a gap where your going to pay a hefty $32M or upset him at $19M you make a push for $24/25M or after trying to figure it out and offering $19M they should have filed at $22M and surprised him that they were willing to file $3M higher so he feels some extra value in the event they win the case which is likely.
If it goes to hearing, the Tigers will win and Boras knows it. Seems like an attempt to squeeze a few more million out of the Tigers as a good faith gesture to Skubal in order to start the season on a positive note?
In the current CBA arbitration panels now must take into account what free agents with similar stats made in AAV for cases involving players in their 3rd time through arbitration. For Skubal the comparables include Wheeler, Verlander, and Scherzer who all recieved more than $40 million. It also includes Cole, Snell, and Burnes who got more than $32 million.
Tigers should know better – such hearings rarely end well in terms of maintaining good will.
If they can’t extend him what do they care?
… then they should have traded him prior to such a hearing.
If he is so sensitive he takes arbitration personally is it not better for Detroit to upset him vs his brand new team upsetting him? I imagine his arbitration demands would have been a turnoff as well. Most teams have a budget and or tax issues so knowing if he is going to cost 17 18 19 pr 30 31 32 is important.
@30 Parks
What is Skubal going to do? Pout and not pitch well? Oh, that would make sense heading into free agency.
C’mon, people, THINK!
Thinking is a good idea, Avory. The arbitration process requires the team to criticize the player – like it or not. It’s not a matter of pouting, it’s the potential of the Tigers damaging their rapport with Skubal, Skubal not signing an extension, all while the Tigers lose leverage in the trade process. Thinking, like baseball, is complicated.
OMG. The Tigers aren’t doing a damn thing to “damage the rapport” with Skubal. Tarik’s agent is doing all the grandstanding here, asking for what he knows is unreachable, all to grab headlines.
There’s no leverage lost in a trade process here, it’s the PRESERVATION of it. A reasonable third year arbitration award–which in itself represents a significant salary increase–maintains Detroit’s flexibility to deal him if they want to or to supplement the lineup around him.
You’re not thinking, you’re emoting like the child you think Skubal is.
Slow deep breaths, Avory. “Emoting like the child”- slow deep breaths. Have a good night, Avory.
A lack of goodwill will have an effect on free agent signings. Please don’t tey to say any player will sign where he is paid the most money because every season several top free agents choose to sign with a team for a reason other than largest contract.
I don’t get the Tigers. They should be offering an 8 year $35 million contract. If Skubal won’t negotiate or sign a deal they are screwed when the FA hits.
Who says they haven’t done so? Skubal will easily top Cole’s $36 mm AAV in FA if he’s healthy and productive at years end.
The arbitration number. If they offered $19 million they don’t plan to offer anything in the ballpark. There haven’t even been any rumblings from guys like Olney, Bowden, etc… there have been any negotiations over the last year. That is the per year average and more they should be in.
Assuming the Tigers are out at the trade deadline, no one is going to give them a ton of talent for a guy that will go to free agency at that point. They are going to get stuck with a compensation pick.
It’s gonna take way more than that. The Tigers are not one of those few teams who give out huge contracts like he’ll be getting.
They did with Miguel Cabrera, they even over did it. Skubal is one of those foundation guys that the money is worth it.
This is classic Boranomics.
Though I think Detroit and Skubal definitely would have won had they countered with the value of this years QO
Just remember no team wins an arbitration hearing. They either lose or “win” and have a pissed off key member of their team. This better settle before the hearing.
If Skubal loses the hearing I could see him spending some time on IL with a hamstring strain or some such thing.
Who cares if they are pissed? What’s he gonna do tank his final year before free agency.
Management simp identified
Moronic know-nothing identified
You really think he’s going to not go all out in his walk year? He’ll make every start he can, no matter how he feels about Tigers management.
Skubal come back home to California, play 2 years in Sacramento and be the face of the franchise for the Vegas A’s.
I think you logged into the wrong alt account, John.
Give him the largest pile of $ and he will gladly sign wherever the Athletics play baseball at.
He surely will.
That is not necessarily true. Every year several top free agents sign for a reason other than largest contract. Bregman, Burnes, and Soto all has offers for equal or large amounts that they passed on to sign where they did last season. That is the case every year.
Detroit should be ashamed of themselves. He wins his 2nd CY in a row and they try to low ball him?! Biggest YoY bump is DeGrom after… ONE CY. Skubal gets two straight and they want to give him less of a raise than DeGrom after one. Insane.
Not a lowball at all.
Learn math.
I hope he loses and fires Boras. Then signs a ten year contract with the Tigers.
I’m sure Boras explained why he wanted to file at this number and got Skubal approval.
Can Mets has Skubal?
2024–25
WAR: 12.6
Market value: ~$101M
Arbitration isn’t built to price elite pitching.
If it goes to a hearing, Detroit probably wins at $19M because arbitration panels are conservative by design.
Arbitration panels now must take into account what free agents with similar stats made in AAV for cases involving players in their 3rd time through arbitration.
For Skubal the comparables include Wheeler, Verlander, and Scherzer who all recieved more than $40 million. It also includes Cole, Snell, and Burnes who got more than $32 million.
Skubal probably wins this one.
I’m just thinking about the bad blood that came out from the arbitration case between the Brewers and Corbin Burnes. if Detroit doesn’t want to poison that well, they may want to go back and increase their offer. a secondary reason for that would be the tigers would have a slightly more valuable trade chip if they did fall out of contention or traded him before the trade deadline.
I can see the benefits of Boras wanting to take this to arbitration because if they do win the case, a rising tide rises all ships. Say Detroit comes back with a counter with an additional 5 million. Boras would reap a longer term benefit by just promising Skubal that same $5 million (to reject the counter and go to arb) if they lose the arbitration, rather than just take the higher offer. the test case of a two-time Cy Young winner going to arbitration just doesn’t come up. there’s certainly a chance of them winning the case.
anyway you slice it, Skubal has a Tiger by the tail.
No bad blood from Milwaukee. They were trading him irregardless. Burnes was just a lil cry baby. No one with any sort of life would care how he felt but he cried anyways for the lifeless.
I’m generally in favor of AI.
But this is an aspect of it that needs attention
It’s ok, good even, to care about how people feel.
I’d love to see him stay with Detroit but if this is how the Tigers are going to negotiate they should just trade him now.
They negotiated as all the 29 other teams would have.
This just isn’t true. Several teams would have offered him the SP record at the very least, particularly any FOs that had actual intentions of keeping him around long term, not the embarrassing offers the Tigers have put up
With that figure, looks like the Tigers have already moved on from him. There’ll be bad blood regardless. Bout time for that major prospect haul….
“One year of Skubal would have immense trade value regardless of his salary, but he’d be much more appealing to other clubs on a $19MM sum than he would at $32MM.”
1. If he is available, or someone comes in with an offer that makes you think, that money won’t matter much, if at all.
2. Put Skubal in a FA situation where he is more likely to get fair value, what are you paying him fresh off consecutive Cy’s? 32 AAV is closer to a starting point than out-of-line.
Would get 13m less of prospects players.
If this goes to a hearing and Skubal wins he will most likely be traded before opening day. The entire basis of trade talks is the gap in which Detroit is willing to offer him in an extension and his demands. You’d have to assume rather then pay $32M the Tigers would opt to get as good of a return for him as possible including another MLB rotation arm and try to compete that way..holding onto him for one last year made sense if his salary was “team friendly” not so much if he’s earning a figure towards the top of the SP market. The post says it’s unlikely they get to a hearing and I see the logic in that but I also don’t know DET would offer more then say $22-23M and over $3-4M Skubal has no reason to not try and reset the market in arbitration for himself and future top of the rotation arms.
To be clear I don’t think he would win and even $22-23M would “reset” the market in arbitration but $32M is a whole new level. In the event Skubal wins which is probably a sub 5% chance then Paul Skenes is salivating.
If the team came in at $22-25 M, there would be no discussion. Because he set a precedent with the 2nd Cy before this decision is made, the arbitrators could very easily say Skubal deserves more than a “standard” raise and, since they are limited to the two choices and the offer is essentially that, award him his ask.
I think he will get it.
Arb 1 was 2 3 million. Arbitration 2 10m. So Skubal agreed or the previous arbitration agreed that cy young is worth 7 or 8 million. Tigers went beyond that with 19m. Just the precedent of baseball arbitration suggest his arb 3 should be 19 if the other option is 32. 32 is a drastic jump. It could happen. You keep playing the lottery and having your celebrity crush. Just don’t get too down if it doesn’t happen.
Now if Skubal came in at 22 to 25 million this would be a heck of a lot more likely. But hey you never know.
19m or 32m is irrelevant to them trading him or not. Any contending team in baseball would be thrilled to have him 1 year 32m.
It probably wouldn’t be irrelevant to the return the Tigers would get though.
Correct. Theoretically you would be willing to give up 13m more or less of player value.
Boras advised Skubal to ask for that amount because in the current CBA a player going through arbitration for the 3rd time must be compared to free agents with similar stats. Skubal is the first 3rd time eligible player that has stats this good.
Who had comparable stats? Verlander, Scherzer, Wheeler, Cole, Snell, and Burnes. How much did they make as an AAV?
The Tigers should have taken that into account. They very well may lose this case.
Just trade him to the Dodgers already.
Seriously, they can have Sheehan, Rushing, Freeland, De Paula and Ferris…
Uhh…no
Skubal is going to lose if this goes to a hearing. Filing in the mid-$20M would have given him a chance.
Yeah, this is kind of a good game…at how low a filing would Skubal be likely to win vs a team proffer of $19m? I’m about where you are; I’d guess $25 million would be 50/50, $24m would win..
Going to just paste this since everyone seems to be missing this key point.
Boras advised Skubal to ask for that amount because in the current CBA a player going through arbitration for the 3rd time must be compared to free agents with similar stats. Skubal is the first 3rd time eligible player that has stats this good.
Who had comparable stats? Verlander, Scherzer, Wheeler, Cole, Snell, and Burnes. How much did they make as an AAV? More than $32 million and several over $40 million.
The Tigers should have taken that into account. They very well may lose this case.
best,
Good point about final-year arb players being able to compare themselves to free agents. I had forgotten about that.
I still think arbitration panels tend to be fairly conservative and believe the Tigers have greater odds of winning than Skubal. If he had submitted at $29.9M, I’d like his chances significantly better. Humans will make the decision, and humans can be weird.
Memo to rct: Skubal is only interested in Skubal. No pitcher takes himself out of the most important game of the year. Selfish teammate.. As noted, lucky to get $19 million.
He alluded to a $13M range in payroll projection.
Why he did?
Eludes me.
Until I discovered spell check trips out on an extra l in elude.
Just then, I realized I had been illuded.
He’s still trying to cover up Chris Illiches’ chrometophobia.
Skubal 10 x $35M.
Did I mention:
The rumor in Detroit is Scott Boras is using a fake birth certificate he purchased on Queens Blvd, NYC for $50. The City of Sacramento claims there was a “Great Conflagration” and all their records may not be complete. City officials have yet to respond to independent investigators inquiries. In fact, they have hung up the telephone repeatedly and are at the time of this writing considered hostile.
AL central is a lousy division. Tigers could trade skubal for a boatload, get pieces to help now and probably still contend. Plus they got 4 top 40 prospects, two are among the top 10. So they are set up for the future whether they keep skubal or not
Does any team have two top-10 plus another two top-40 prospects?
It’s hard to see an arbitrator more than tripling a player’s salary to a new record for arb pitchers. My guess is that they’ll settle before the hearing at something like $23-25 million. I know MLBTR likes the “file and trial” mantra – can’t resist rhyme time – but this looks more like “file and talk.” Shucks, no rhyme.
MLBTR doesn’t use that rhyme for fun, it’s because that’s what most teams most often do.
Going to just paste this since everyone seems to be missing this key point.
Boras advised Skubal to ask for that amount because in the current CBA a player going through arbitration for the 3rd time must be compared to free agents with similar stats. Skubal is the first 3rd time eligible player that has stats this good.
Who had comparable stats? Verlander, Scherzer, Wheeler, Cole, Snell, and Burnes. How much did they make as an AAV? More than $32 million and several over $40 million.
The Tigers should have taken that into account. They very well may lose this case.
Anyone else think this is a ploy by Borass to get Skubal traded to a big market team along with a massive contract before the lockout?
No. And “Borass”…??? Not exactly original.
No, Boras is fine with waiting as long as he needs to for the big payday.
Reading the comments make me realize that at least half of the commenters don’t understand how the arbitration system works in MLB.
Skubal was projected to earn $17.8MM via arbitration (by MLBTR) and the Tigers offered more than that. Filing at 31MM is absolute insanity. Maybe Boras and Skubal are trying to set a new precedent but more than likely they will lose the arbitration case.
And to anyone saying Soto made 31MM last year with the Yankees, Soto made 23MM the year before via arbitration. Whereas Skubal only made about 10MM. Skubal is essentially asking for a 21MM raise as opposed to Soto who got a 8MM raise. So comparing the 2 players is a apples to oranges comparison.
You can try to explain it to WadeBoggs and the rest of the clueless, but they just aren’t going to get it. All they know is “2 Cy Young awards .”
Here is why he filed for that amount:
“…the collective bargaining agreement allows players who are one year away from free agency to compare themselves not only to past arbitration precedents, but to free agents as well. There’s ample precedent for free agent pitchers commanding upwards of $30MM annually, with some late-career aces pulling more than $40MM per season on short-term deals.”
The reason he has a legitimate shot at winning his case is that of all the pitchers to earn $30+ million in FA, Skubal’s ERA was by far the lowest. For pitchers arbitration is almost entirely about 3 things, IP compared to the league that year, ERA, and strike outs. Awards are also taken into account. Having consecutive CY Young Awards will also be in his favor.
Not saying he will get his ask, but there is a real chance he will.
Going to just paste this since everyone seems to be missing this key point.
Boras advised Skubal to ask for that amount because in the current CBA a player going through arbitration for the 3rd time must be compared to free agents with similar stats. Skubal is the first 3rd time eligible player that has stats this good.
Who had comparable stats? Verlander, Scherzer, Wheeler, Cole, Snell, and Burnes. How much did they make as an AAV? More than $32 million and several over $40 million.
The Tigers should have taken that into account. They very well may lose this case.
Why are you comparing players that went through free agency to Skubal? Comparing the stats of the players you listed is completely irrelevant as those players got paid via free agency and NOT arbitration.
If you want a proper comparison go check what the players you listed made via arbitration (Or at least the ones who didn’t sign an extension) and see if they made anywhere near what Skubal is asking for.
David Price to this day holds the record for pitchers at 19.75MM.
Because in the current CBA the rules for third time arbitration eligible players says they must be compared to free agents when considering compensation.
Did you skip the article? Have you never read the CBA?
It doesnt matter at all what David Price got in 2015. Its 2026 and the arbitration panels must operate under a different set of rules for awarding compensation.
Then please explain to me why David Price still holds the record despite it being over a decade old now. Regardless of what the CBA says it doesn’t change the fact that no pitcher has ever gotten over 20MM.
You say the arbitration panels must operate under new set of rules? Well that hasn’t happened at all. Heck arbitration still takes into account pitcher wins, if that doesn’t tell you how archaic the arbitration system still is I don’t know what will.
And 3rd time arbitration eligible or not a player getting triple their salary via arbitration from the previous year is completely unheard of.
You’re free to keep referencing the CBA but just about everyone knows that going through arbitration for 3rd or 4th time does not equate to getting what you would get as a free agent.
If you truly believe pitchers “must be compared to free agents when considering compensation”, I implore you to tell me the last time a pitcher going through arbitration was compensated properly.
Soto did not go through an arbitration hearing to get that $23 million. He signed before going to arbitration.
I’m guessing Skubal will win his arbitration.
I agree
I highly doubt it.
Going to just paste this since everyone seems to be missing this key point.
Boras advised Skubal to ask for that amount because in the current CBA a player going through arbitration for the 3rd time must be compared to free agents with similar stats. Skubal is the first 3rd time eligible player that has stats this good.
Who had comparable stats? Verlander, Scherzer, Wheeler, Cole, Snell, and Burnes. How much did they make as an AAV? More than $32 million and several over $40 million.
The Tigers should have taken that into account. They very well may lose this case.
Yet another boras client probably leaving his competitive team. Boras erred as he attempts to get maximum free agent value for an arb level pitcher.. Price pitched 210 + innings with 4 cg.
Skubal pitched 190 innings one cg. He’s had two major injuries.. I like he’s been able to adjust after the injuries, but boras is the oft injured superstars agent. I predict Detroit wins arbitration but Skubal gets traded mid season.
Comparing Price’s and Skubal’s IP and CG without acknowledging the difference in pitcher usage a decade later??? Also, Skubal is coming off back-to-back Cy Young-winning seasons.
That being said, I also think Detroit wins this hearing.
Going to just paste this since everyone seems to be missing this key point.
Boras advised Skubal to ask for that amount because in the current CBA a player going through arbitration for the 3rd time must be compared to free agents with similar stats. Skubal is the first 3rd time eligible player that has stats this good.
Who had comparable stats? Verlander, Scherzer, Wheeler, Cole, Snell, and Burnes. How much did they make as an AAV? More than $32 million and several over $40 million.
The Tigers should have taken that into account. They very well may lose this case.
Sounds like a trade is going to happen 😆
A hearing at least.
All I’ve learned from this is that AI GM is clearly a burner account for someone in the Detroit Front Office to care this much about it
He’s trying to explain it to them but they keep making the same uneducated arguments over and over. They don’t understand how the arbitration process works. And they can’t fathom that Skubal will be leaving the Tigers after the season regardless of what happens now in arbitration. The Tigers aren’t going to pay the astronomical price it will take to sign him long-term..
Eh what’s $13 million between friends anyway?
Where’s the damn poll? Let’s put this to a vote!
How selfish and/or cheap can you be? What possible justification could they have for 19? They have to lose and should based on thay number.
Um…because that’s the way the process is supposed to work? You do realize that arbitration isn’t free agency, right?
Guess not.
The arb record for a pitcher is 19.7 by David price years ago. How do you not offer to at least beat that when he’s coming off of back to back cys?
Mitch – I think Detroit was trying to make an educated guess at how low they could offer and still get the arbitrator to pick their number. Or they picked that number for pre hearing negotiation purposes. Given that free agent performance and salaries can be considered for final year arbitration cases, 32M doesn’t seem unreasonable. The only way Detroit can save face IMO is if they negotiate to something in the 28-30M range but the 19M initial offer may have been a bit off putting and set Skubal to try his luck in the hearing…
If you look at past arb numbers in situations like this they didnt even offer to beat the previous record set years ago by someone with lesser numbers. They have to be realistic and at least give him the record even youre only beating by a mil or two.
This looks like a posturing tactic by the Tigers on behalf of all the other owners, conveniently playing out during the final offseason before the impending lockout. A seismic shift in arbitration pay for pitchers right before the lockout can be used by owners as an example that salaries need to be capped by something more substantial than the current luxury tax system.
David Price got 19.5MM in arb and that was 11 years ago. I don’t see how Detroit wins this.
They’ll win easily. Good night.
Going to just paste this since everyone seems to be missing this key point.
Boras advised Skubal to ask for that amount because in the current CBA a player going through arbitration for the 3rd time must be compared to free agents with similar stats. Skubal is the first 3rd time eligible player that has stats this good.
Who had comparable stats? Verlander, Scherzer, Wheeler, Cole, Snell, and Burnes. How much did they make as an AAV? More than $32 million and several over $40 million.
The Tigers should have taken that into account. They very well may lose this case.
jc
Well. Because arbitration is a joke
john,
The Tigers may win, but Skubal has a really good case. His walk year production is better than any pitcher that got a $30+ million deal. That 2.21 ERA is more than a full point lower than David Price in 2014.
I don’t see it. Has any pitcher ever gotten a $22M raise in arbitration?
This is a clever PR move – “oh I wanted to stay in Detroit until they disrespected me with that super low Arb offer.”
Detroit’s number was higher than the MLBTR projected figure, which while not always accurate is usually well in range. The player’s number was wildly above that. Boras is no fool, He knows the market and he knows how to present an arbitration case. He’s hoping to set a new precedent for arbitration. Skubal is unique, a back to back CY Young Award winner. The others who have done that are in the HOF or ineligble yet (Kershaw, deGrom) or blackballed (Clemens). With four Dodgers starters all making $30 million, Boras is going to argue that Skubal is better and more deserving than any of them. If he loses, Skubal’s downside is $19 million and setting a $33 million AAV floor for his free agent negotiations.
I reserve issuing record-obliterating Arbitration Awards to pitchers willing to at least open the 7th inning when facing postseason elimination.
Trade him to the Dodgers and let the man get his money
no sense losing prospect capital when the Dodgers can just wait a year and sign him to a hugely back end heavy contract in FA.
they can win WS without Skubal. they’d be scar(y/ier) with him though.
MG
I believe there’s some value in having a player in-house when it comes to signing him.
I suspect there’s a difference in the way the Dodgers do things and the way the Tigers do things. And letting the player see that can only help. Plus. You get one more year of the player.
Not if you threaten to trade him to someone else, who may just sign him….
Detroit should just pay the $32 million. This is no time to disrespect Skubal after what he has done for the team and the city. Create some goodwill and maybe Tarik will want to stay in Detroit. Part of that is winning THIS year. To do that the players must overcome GM Scott Harris. He is arrogant and condescending to a smart and informed fan base.
He gone.
“I wish someone would disrespect me by offering me just $19MM.”
Always the dumbest take
Usually made by someone earning half of what their production is worth
The MLBTR Pompous and Arrogant Exacta Daily Award is hereby given to JUJH. Congratulations sir, well done!
So arrogant and pompous to want other people to earn more money
The Tigers should give Skubal the $32 million. What he wants is a team that values him. This isn’t about the 2026 season. To sign Tarik for multiple years he will want to be paid and supported like a 2-time defending CY YOUNG winner.
But Scott Harris is exactly the wrong person to oversee Skubal’s case. He’s a skilled pencil pusher but afraid to make personnel moves. In the end, Harris will be the reason Detroit loses Skubal and probably gets much less than he is worth in return.
Skubal is so out of their league. Can’t understand why they refuse to move on from him.
Seems Skubal is getting ahead of himself.
Skubal has a good case. This is why:
“the collective bargaining agreement allows players who are one year away from free agency to compare themselves not only to past arbitration precedents, but to free agents as well. There’s ample precedent for free agent pitchers commanding upwards of $30MM annually, with some late-career aces pulling more than $40MM per season on short-term deals.”
Skubal was better last season than any of those free agent starters in their walk year.
I doubt this goes to arbitration. The two sides are likely to settle somewhere in the middle.
Hello Dodgers.
The Tigers threw away almost the money they want last year with Cobb, and Maeda. So, its not money. Its a test case. No one likes a stick up man. Will the owner just fork over the money, or will he demand hes traded ? It’ll be interesting how it works out.
So DET’s offer is LESS than the QO $22M number? This is what’s wrong with baseball. The QO is the avg salary of the top 125 salaries. DET just wants to minimize his salary so they can maximize their trade value.
Or…this is another opportunity for Skubal and the Tigers to sit down and negotiate something bigger, like happened with Mize last year. Skubal says he wants to stay, us fans want him to stay and the Tigers have an extra shot to chat about what it takes to make him stay. He’s not a guy O see getting led around by the nose by Boras. If he wins arb hearing he wins. If he lose the arb hearing he WINS. In the meantime they can chat more about a longterm contract.
Some thoughts…
This is why Boras had him parading around at Detroit sporting events recently. Get him in the good graces of fans to make the tigers look like the bad guys before arbitration.
Price was on his 4th year of arbitration, Skubal is Arb3. Any arbitration projection is much closer to the tigers number.
Boras is trying to shatter the arbitration system so he can take advantage of it with other future clients as well. If it doesn’t work out, think it pushes a trade, also a Boras/Skubal goal.
Airo, the comparison is or third time arb eligible players.
FWIW, I doubt the $13M difference affects the Tigers off season plan. They have done most of their heavy lifting already. Tigers are not really in the Bregman market but according to reports lurking around. I don’t see them getting involved unless Bregman’s market craters. Possible not even that if Skubal wins his hearing. But that is about the limit of the effect this will have on the Tigers plans.
I’m just confused by the Tigers offseason. They may well have Skubal for only one more year, even if they agree to meet him 90% of the way toward his number at 31M. But instead of offering an over-the-top extension to keep him, they throw out a lowball number that’s not even double his 2025 salary, despite him winning CYA. That could be insulting and might harm any chances of him re-signing, making this as his last year more likely. But instead of going for it with big FA signings or trades to fill holes *or* trading him for a haul, they are basically running it back. I know they’re expected to call up McGonigle, but you can’t depend on a rookie to meaningfully contribute, even one with a hit tool as good as his. Just feels like they’re wasting an opportunity here, not to mention kicking the horse that got them to the playoffs last year.
The other thing is, people talk. Players and agents are well-informed on these deals, better than we are. They see how other teams treat their players and that might affect their decisions, especially if the offers are fundamentally the same financially. This is just a bad look for the Tigers.
When you offer your ace not even 5 million more than you offered broke down Alex Cobb…. So sad. At this point, I want the Tigers to move him to someone who values him. When you offer a scrap heap pile pitcher 15 million for one season then you turn around and offer your 2x Cy Young Award winning pitcher 19 million for a season…. Smh.. The Tigers need an overhaul in ownership and upper management.
stop acting the fool what Skubal was asking for is totally unprecedented. The Tigers offer was well within historical norms.
Yeah man, good thing there’s so many pitchers of skubals caliber who won back to back Cy Young’s during the arbitration process, to compare him to.
What Skubal is doing is an outlier. You pay him like such.
Typically, if you have a great season, you can double your prior earnings via arb. He made $10.15M last year, so $19M isn’t even double that despite him winning his second consecutive CYA. If I ran the Tigers, I’d have offered $24M or so. An arbiter might have actually gone for that and it would have at least broken David Price’s record, which I certainly feel Skubal deserves to do.
Trade him now.
Realist,
Going to just paste this since everyone seems to be missing this key point.
Boras advised Skubal to ask for that amount because in the current CBA a player going through arbitration for the 3rd time must be compared to free agents with similar stats. Skubal is the first 3rd time eligible player that has stats this good.
Who had comparable stats? Verlander, Scherzer, Wheeler, Cole, Snell, and Burnes. How much did they make as an AAV? More than $32 million and several over $40 million.
The Tigers should have taken that into account. They very well may lose this case.
Look, I know we’ve all been saying for a while now that Skubal’s time with the Tigers is limited but this seems like the final nail in the coffin. The final shred of hope for Tigers fans.
If you’re saying your 2 time Cy Young winning pitcher is only worth 19 million and you’r willing to fight over it, it doesn’t say much about your future plans for the guy.
Trade him NOW !!
It’s not about skubal. It’s about the existing salary structure.
It’s interesting. I’m not sure I entirely agree about a deadline trade value….if a team is ready to pony up a boatload of prospect talent for maybe 15 starts, they aren’t going to worry too much about one half of $13M.
When you hire Scott Boras as your agent, you are signaling to everyone that you are solely concerned with maximizing your earnings. So the argument that this ruins the chances of the Tigers getting Skubal to agree to an extension is invalid, since that wasn’t happening regardless. Skubal is going free agent next year, because that’s what every Boras client does.
I’m not being critical of Skubal here in any way btw. Everyone has the right to make these sorts of choices for themselves, and he’s certainly earned his next huge payday. But the Tigers won’t be in contention for paying out that payday regardless, barring massive CBA changes.
This guy is going to be impossible to deal with.
If any pitcher deserves to set the market it’s Skubal.
The only thing that’s obvious is he’s not going to be on the Tigers past this season.
If that.
No kidding. Why would y9ou think otherwise. Take a dude like Gerrit Cole/Boras. He got a huge long contract with opt outs. The guy gets a TJ and still negoiates additional yrs for more money. Dealing with Boras did you think they could keep him? Previously I wouodl have said Cohen will pay uop again, but now I see that Cohen wants to tamp things down after Soto. So Dodgers will get Skubal.
Here’s a perfect example about a cheap team that doesn’t want to accommodate its star player to a salary he thinks he’s worth. I just don’t want to hear tiger fans crying when the Dodgers swoop in next year and sign him for a record breaking deal. Det, you made your bed…now lay in it.
You realize that you are wrong, don’t you? This isn’t about skubal. This is about the salary structure and service time. What skubal’s camp has to prove is that the current salary structure should pay him $32 million. And if he sons, then the market is totally re-set for pitchers with his service time. This hearing is about a third about skubal himself. It’s a big risk, and there’s no comp skubal can point to to justify that figure.
Boras advised Skubal to ask for that amount because in the current CBA a player going through arbitration for the 3rd time must be compared to the compensation earned by free agents with similar stats. Skubal is the first 3rd time eligible player that has stats this good.
Who had comparable stats? Verlander, Scherzer, Wheeler, Cole, Snell, and Burnes. How much did they make as an AAV? More than $32 million and several over $40 million. That is the level of compensation the arbitration panel will have to use in determining Skubal’s award in this case.
The Tigers should have taken that into account. Skubal may very well win his case.
This isn’t how it works. The only thing that matters in terms of comparison is what players in their final year of arbitration made in the past, not how much whoever got as a free agent. Those are not part of the consideration.
What Skubal is trying to do is have the arbitrator apply the standard for what some top position players have made in their final arb year (Soto 31M, Vlad Jr 28M) and apply it to pitchers. What the Tigers are arguing is that he should be paid along the lines of the highest amount ever awarded to a pitcher (Price 19M in 2015) in their final year of arb.
It’s actually kind of a fascinating test case, but I suspect that the arbitrator will narrowly construe precedent and make him stick to the pitcher number rather than the position player number he’s seeking. We’ll see.
If you don’t play baseball as much as someone else who plays baseball, you should make less money playing baseball.
I disagree.
Pitchers CAN’T play every day — not even relievers, or their arms would fall off. One could argue that pitchers are worth more on their starting day than anyone else. A position player isn’t worth anything on his given day off. So you’re paying pitchers (and position players) by the season, not the game.
If time on the field is the key salary factor, then guys who start and play on special teams, are worth more to the football team than the quarterback. QB is the equivalent of a rotation’s ace SP.
Skubal faced 748 batters last year and 753 the year before. Last year, Francisco Lindor led MLB in plate appearances with 732.
In reality, top pitchers impact about as many plate appearances as the top batters these days. They just are condensed into 1 game every 5 or 6 days instead of being spread of 4-5 per day over that same time. They also field their position, though obviously not for as many innings as a position player does. That’s the main difference, but it doesn’t really matter. They operate as largely separate markets.
This process will justify the Tigers trading Skubal by mid season. It’s a PR nightmare but it’s what’s best for the Tigers long term
Trade him now.
Detroit was finally on the rebound and theyve been shooting themselves in the foot over this and their pathetic extension offer last year. FA are going to stay clear unless they dont have a choice.
oh boy, get ready pirates fans if Skubal wants 32M I can’t wait to hear what Skenes asks for when he’s arb eligible
Skenes may actually get that $ if he stays healthy.
He is going to be a Dodgers for 500-600 million.
The extra Cy Young, the poximity of those Cy Youngs to the platform year, and a decade of inflation on salaries, should make up for Price’s extra year of arbitration. Plus, in the 4 years before the platform year, Price was performing at a low-to-mid-4 fWAR level with a peak at 5.6 in his platform year. The past 4 years, Skubal has been performing at a low-6 fWAR level with a peak of 6.6 last year.
It looks like it is time for a long-overdue market correction. Position players are being compensated much more fairly for their value than pitchers, and they have far less injury risk to potentially compromise future earnings.
Harris don’t sign him. Just trade him somewhere he’ll be appreciated. Let’s just move on……
I can’t see the Tigers winning at $19 million when David Price got even more than that over a decade ago.
David Price was a pyroll bandit. Interesting point. Isnt arbirtration win or lose and no middle ground payment wise?
Skubal will end up with the Dodgers. I think He could nail 500 million? Maybe more with special bonuses like All Star game and maybe even opt outs. Could he be a 600 million dollar man with deferred money?
Skubal was a Cy Young pitcher making $2M
Skubal was a Cy Young pitcher making $10M
Skubal was a 12 War pitcher making $12M… 1 Mill per WAR. Give the guy what he deserves… let him set the record at $32M for 1 year as a thank you for your service and let him walk. He deserves it. Who know what happens this season… maybe he gets hurt and isn’t the same… pay him what he’s been worth the past 2 years. He earned it.
This is never a good thing in going to arbitration. Things are said to devalue a player’s worth and feelings/egos get hurt. no matter what people think about being a professional ball player and feelings don’t count, that’s a joke. We all have them and these players have more than most. Just MHO. That said, I hope it works out.
After years of medoicrity, The Tigers are finally winning, and fans have been VERY supportive, flocking to every home game,,,,so, isn’t it time ownership put up some cash? Not just with Skubal, but how about starting to pay some free agents not found in the dumpster? Or, with all the young talent we have, how about a big trade? I’m not sure Harris can come thru on either outcome.
Unless Detroit is willing to and knowingly going to break the bank to re-sign Skubal, they should trade him now. Get a haul and be done. Jmo.