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Crede For Damon Picking Up Steam

This thing is gaining traction.  Buster Olney comments on the idea of a Joe Crede for Johnny Damon swap this morning:

Makes sense in a lot of ways: The Yankees would get the veteran third baseman they need without committing themselves to big dollars, shed Damon's salary, and the White Sox would solve their third base logjam while adding a center fielder for much less than what the free agent center fielders will get (Damon is owed about $26 million over the next two seasons, and presumably, the Yankees would eat some of that to make a deal happen).

Mark Feinsand also entertains the notion of this trade in today's column.

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I dont see how the Yankees would possibly make this deal. Regardless of how much Damon costs, and the fact that the team has a surplus of outfielders, its hard to imagine he would be traded for Crede. Joe Crede has a career OBP of .313, has once in his career had an OBP of over .350, has once hit over .300, and is just removed from major back surgery, which may severely limit his defensive range. In addition, Damon played an integral part in the Yankees lineup last year: when healthy, he is a good leadoff hitter, and is constantly in the middle of big rallies. Im fine with the Yankees dumping Damon's salary, but not for someone like Crede.

Dannyf is right. No way the Yankees install a below-average third baseman, even if it's to move Damon. They will make a substantial push for Lowell, and if they can't get him, they may have the chips to get involved in a deal for someone made available.

But Betemit is better now than Crede, and with more upside.

i hate to admitt it but i think the yanks will throw a nuch of money at lowell and sign him to play 3rd maybe 4yrs-60 mil, danny and dunkin are right about this one

If the Yankees dealing for Crede means they dont grab Lowell, I'm all for it.

I guess nobody had seen crede play and to compare Betemit to Crede is crazy...Joe can play D with the best and the last year he was healthy hit 30 homers.Plus has a ring.As far as Damon goes..I like the idea of the trade.If damon came to chicago he would play LF.Hunter is coming to play CF.

The yanks would be dumb to do this. Damon brings a lot to the table skill wise and he was the only player who produced in the playoffs last year. I agree with dunkin in that betemit is a better replacement than crede. And honestly the yanks don't need hitting. Pitching is what won it for them in the past so if there gonna trade it should be for better pitchers.

Do that Sox!I want my boy strawberry fields to play 3rd.

living in boston i have seen Damon play, and the Yankees should get rid of him in any way possible. Mb not for a 3rd baseman, but they must. My grandmother has a better arm than him. The Yanks would win in this deal, but for the yankees, money is easier to spend than players.

Hmmm you said that the Pads are looking for a CF as well. I know Damon's got a shitty arm (seriously... I can throw better), but he still covers a lot of ground when healthy and has a good bat.

Any chance that Damon + pitching prospect + Cash lands Kouz or Headley? Antonelli is probably a little too young to help the Yanks immediately.

You are all under estimating what crede brings to the table. His defense is easily top 3 in the league if not tops at 3b. He did hit poorly his first few years in the league but started to come into his own recently. Crede who is still young, I believe 27 for Damon who at best is a LF bc of no arm is a fair deal if the Yanks eat up some salary. The sox would still have a hole in CF, but it looks like Hunter/Rowand are on their radar. Hunter I think is overrated for the money and timeframe but Rowand for 11 to 12m a season is fair given his age.

Damon is in STEEP decline. His arm is terrible--he can't play center--he shouldn't really play left. His OBP is declining. His power is declining. His speed is declining. Each year will be worse than the last from now on. I love him as the player and person he's been. But he can't be that player anymore. Even injuries are a factor now, which they've never been before. I see him most useful as a DH/4th outfielder, which doesn't seem to fit the needs of the White Sox.

Crede will be 30 next April. Franchise you are a scumbag.

This would be a bad deal for the Yankees straight up. Chicago would have to throw someone else in this deal. Damon has several skills which Crede will never have including patience, speed, bunting ability. IMO even though Damon is older he is still a better player than Crede. I only do this deal if Chicago throws someone in the deal like say, a low level decent prospect (Brandon Allen). Otherwise I say no, because I don't like Crede one bit.

Wow. Little bad blood between Tim and Franchise?

I don't see why this is a bad deal. While Damon was good when he was healthy, he wasn't healthy for long periods of time -- and it's only going to get worse in '08. The other thing to think about is the market for 3B. The Yanks are essentially out of the running for Arod, and Lowell favors the Red Sox. Crede has good pop and a great glove. If anything, he'll just be a one-year thing, and then the Yanks can throw some money at Chipper in '09 or make a run for Miguel Cabrera.

Geez Tim, you're protecting this trade idea like it's your first child. I think there's a little more to this to you than it fitting for both teams.

Anyway, the sad thing is that hardly anyone from either side wants it to happen. We just don't want to see another declining outfielder here on the south side.

Crede is a great defender with some pop but his bat leaves a lot to be desired. As White Sox fans we seem to overrate him quite a bit offensively, and with his back surgery we have no idea how he will come back. This will probably only get him a one year deal though and cheaply. Now I wouldn't want Damon because I personally want the Sox to get younger, but Damon brings OBP to the Sox and that is exactly what we need so beggars can't be choosers.

As a Red Sox fan, I'd love to see this deal. Joe Crede shouldn't even be a starting 3B in the majors. He brings some pop and maybe some defense but he's always hurt and his averages are terrible. On the flipside, I'd love to see Damon wallow with a White Sox team that has no chance to compete in that division for the next few years. Good times all around.

"Maybe some defense"

"Always hurt"

You sir fail

Jake has 0 concept of baseball value or know how proven by his comments about Joe Crede along with the White Sox having no chance of competing. A team having 1 off year does not equate to them being a poor team.

Gimme a break, Franchise. Maybe the White Sox will be a .500 team in the Central but that's not good enough. The Indians will be dominant for the next few years with the Tigers right behind. And the pieces are there for the Twins to be good if their young pitching pans out and they get some power hitters.

The White Sox are in decline at a bad time. These are the facts. It's also a fact that Crede's OBP has been at least 20 points below league average every year of his career. Now that the White Sox actually have someone in Fields that can put up at least league average numbers, they're salivating at the chance to deal him off.

"A team having 1 off year does not equate to them being a poor team."

This is true Boston went from 3rd place, to world champs.

However, the White Sox ended up exactly where they were expected to. They are a bad team, poorly comprised, with the best I'm going to hurt my team by doing stupid things manager in baseball.

"Joe Crede shouldn't even be a starting 3B in the majors."

This is a stupid line, and should summarily ignored. However Joe Crede is not anything more than league average though this is just recycling an argument from a few days ago.

Getting Joe Crede's bat, and Scott Podsednik's bat off the field while barely if at all increasing payroll is a good thing for the White Sox.

One down year doesn't make a player awful either. Damon for Crede is a good trade for Chicago. It's value to New York entirely depends on the amount of money having to be sent with Damon, and the outrageous demands that come with trying to make other trades or signings.

I'll correct myself about Crede's defense. Averaging about 12 errors per full season is terrific. But I stand by my comments about his atrocious offense.

Hey, I agree that JakeOD21 didn't exactly go in-depth, but I agree with his overall conclusion. Crede really hasn't been a good offensive 3B. He's never even managed league-average OBP, topping out at .323. He hits a decent number of HR, but he's never managed more than 151 games or 544 AB, and surpassed 500 AB only twice. He's never even managed more than 34 BB in a season.

As for the White Sox... well, they were last in the ML in OBP, BA, 28th in Runs Scored, 25th in ERA, 24th in BAA, and 19th in WHIP. They did have some down years from players, but they need some major changes to get bach into the postseason race.

I'm not saying the trade is good or bad... I haven't really decided how I feel about it, and it would depend on how much of Damon's salary the Yankees picked up.

Sox sucked bc they thought Erstad and Pods could play CF and LF. They realize this mistake and honestly their starting pitching is above average especiailly if they upgrade from Contreras which is bound to happen, while their pen faultered it still has the potential to be nasty.

ArodSucksAtLife has a great point, crede gives the yanks what they need, and if the Sox put damon in left it helps them as well. The Sox can sign a CF and honestly have a really good team that can compete in the AL central.

The Indians are for real, but I think the Tigers will drop off even more and the Twins are also declining now. Granted the AL Central is probably the best division in baseball so it will not be easy to win it, but I think the Sox and Kenny Wills know this is the year they need to make a push with Thome/Dye/Konerko getting older

I will agree that in a perfect world, Crede for Damon would probably benefit both teams pretty close to equally. But the White Sox are in a bad spot and know this and realize that adding declining players isn't on their regime. Cashman says that the Melk Man is their every day CF, but that would make the most sense for both teams to me.

One bad year doesn't make a player awful, it's true. But Damon's bad year comes at an age where, statistically, a bad year generally portends very steep decline. This is exactly why the Red Sox let him walk. They figured--it would seem correctly--that he had one more very good year in him (2006), but that after that he was likely to be a very bad deal at the required salary. It's, of course, possible that Damon will rebound somewhat this year, but not likely. And his atrocious defense is costly. In fact, his situation is rather analagous to that of the fading Bernie Williams, where baserunners took whatever bases they wanted on him. This is why the Yankees want to be rid of him now. I'm neutral on Crede, but I don't know why a team would want Damon as a starting outfielder. Again, I love Johnny Damon, but he is aging and fading. His great spirit and remaining skills would help a contender, if he were used judiciously as a DH/4th outfielder. But this is not what the White Sox are looking for. Rowand may be unattainable, but he is exactly what the White Sox are looking for.

Great points, Playwright. I think the Yankees are the only team that Damon has true value to at this point. When they bought him over, they outbid the next team, Boston, by about 12 million dollars, if I recall correctly. His salary(which the Yankees would indeed have to choke much of down) far surpasses his true value.

This deal just makes sense. The Yanks have a logjam in the outfield. The WSox have a logjam at 3b. Damon gives the Sox some OBP that they have been lacking (What was it, 14th in the league?), while Crede gives the Yankees a 3b to replace ARod who has decent pop and gold glove defense. I think the trade is a win win.

Calling Crede awful on offense is stupid, his averge season over a 162 game season is 25 homers and 85 rbi with a .259 averge, and in his last season he hit .283, and his defense is among the best.

I still think Lowell to the Yankees and Crede to the Redsox for Crisp.

Yankees will offer Lowell more money and more years than Boston, and with Arod off the books they will have tons of money to blow.

There's probably $20mil/year difference between Arod and Lowell, which the Yankees could use on Santana??

Crisp for Crede straight up is probably even and both teams fill a void.

I don't see Crede for Damon happening. The rumored trades never seem to happen, it's the ones we never hear about that go down.

Giving Crede the benefit of only using his 4 "full" seasons from 2003-2006 (excluding his injury-shortened 2007 and his partial 2000-2002 years), here are his AVERAGES:

144 games
500 AB
.260 BA
23 HR
75 RBI
.319 OBP
30 BB
70 K

Giving his numbers over a 162-game season means nothing, because he's NEVER played that many games, so counting on him to do so makes no sense.

Here are his BEST numbers for any year in his career:

151 games (2003)
544 AB (2006)
.285 BA (2002, only 200 AB)
.323 OBP (2006)
30 HR (2006)
.515 SLG (2002, only 200 AB)
.828 OPS (2006)
94 RBI (2006)
76 Runs (2006)
34 BB (2004)

Putting those all together, he looks reasonably solid. Too bad they weren't at the same time. But notice how a lot of them were in 2006? That was a career year for him. And he still only OBPed .323.

"I still think Lowell to the Yankees and Crede to the Redsox for Crisp."

There's no way the Sox brass is interested in Crede. They put high stock on OBP, and Crede is far below average.

anyone who says Crede should be starting in the majors is crazy. This guy plays way above-average defense, improved his hitting every year before getting hurt, topping out at 30 hr, 94 rbi. This guy is easily a starter, and a Crede for Damon deal is probably the best the Yankees can do for Damon.

*shouldn't be starting

Metafrantic,

I agree that the Redsox put high stock in OBP. It actually wasn't something that I considered when I posted that. But Crisp and Crede would probably post similar OBP. Redsox would lose some production going from Lowell to Crede but would get better production going from Crisp to Ellsbury.

Redsox would also free up Lowell's salary.

"There's no way the Sox brass is interested in Crede. They put high stock on OBP, and Crede is far below average."

The same can be said for the Yankees. Will Crede be a free agent next offseason? You have to take into account the one year commitment, the draft pick compensation, the cost than an alternative would take, the loss of prospects to swing a trade, etc. If its 5/70 for Lowell, 10/300+ for A-Rod, your farm system for Mig Cab., Crede becomes more appealing.

I can't believe how ignorant people are of Crede.

The guy plays top notch defense and his hitting was trending all in the right way. He will never be a OBP guy. Certainly though, if healthy, he could put up hit .280 with 25hr's. That's just as good as Mike Lowell will ever do outside of Fenway. The big question for Crede is his health.

To say the guys sucks (while at the same time extolling Betemit) is just silly.

And as for Damon ... another year of wear and tear on his body. His defense is terrible and his wheels aren't what they were. Damon is not far removed from being a .300 hitter with 10 HR's who can't play the field. That's 4th outfielder material to me. Throw on the $13m paycheck he's drawing and you have a disaster on your roster.

It's not bad blood, Franchise is a coworker and buddy of mine and we always debate baseball.

"I agree that the Redsox put high stock in OBP. It actually wasn't something that I considered when I posted that. But Crisp and Crede would probably post similar OBP. Redsox would lose some production going from Lowell to Crede but would get better production going from Crisp to Ellsbury."

That's true. But I don't see it as trading Lowell/Crisp for Crede/Ellsbury.

Right now, the Red Sox starting CF is Ellsbury. Crisp is the odd man out. the way I see it, right now the choice is between trading Crisp for a 3B, or resigning Lowell (probably giving him one year more than they should) and trading Crisp for another piece, like a middle reliever. Right now, I think it makes more sense to do the latter, and I think the Sox will see it the same way.

"Right now, the Red Sox starting CF is Ellsbury. Crisp is the odd man out. the way I see it, right now the choice is between trading Crisp for a 3B, or resigning Lowell (probably giving him one year more than they should) and trading Crisp for another piece, like a middle reliever. Right now, I think it makes more sense to do the latter, and I think the Sox will see it the same way."

Agreed, or you take the $10mil+ you save going from Lowell/Crisp to Crede/Ellsbury and spend it on your needs or extend players.

I don't think people defending Crede on the basis of defense and power numbers grasp just how bad he is at getting on base.

I suppose if any team can give up offense from one position, it's the Yankees. But Crede is the type of bat you hide at the bottom of the order and hope he gives you some pop... like Alex Gonzalez. I don't see him playing 3B for an AL East team that insists on contending every year.

"Agreed, or you take the $10mil+ you save going from Lowell/Crisp to Crede/Ellsbury and spend it on your needs or extend players."

Yes. But with the choices of:
1. Crede/Ellsbury and some free cash
2. Lowell/Ellsbury/middle relief from trading Crisp

With how well Lowell is loved in Boston, the Sox will definitely take the second option.

Plus, Crede only has one year left before he's a free agent; Crisp is signed relatively cheap (considering what other CFers will be looking for) for 3 more years (including his option). And Crede has Boras as his agent. I'm not so sure it's a fair trade anyway.

I am convinced, Crede for Damon is bad for the White Sox. Crede has upside actually and has top notch D.

Damon in his declining years will not help the Chi Sox at all.

The new question now is, What can the Sox get for Crede that will help them win? RP/OF? Anyone have thoughts of another deal that could happen since all signs point towards Crede goin bye bye

I got one for you franchise. Joe Crede to Anaheim for Reggie Willits.

I got another one for you franchise, Joe Crede to Anaheim for Aybar and Santana. Sox spin off Santana, Sweeney and Danks for Crawford (I wish).

I wish either of those would happen, but I highly doubt it.

The only thing that might happen is crede for Santana possibly?

Don't forget tho, Angels are frontrunners for Arod ;p

"""It's not bad blood, Franchise is a coworker and buddy of mine and we always debate baseball."""

Sarcasm, eluding blog readers since circa 1997.

Figures that "BIGBADJENKS45" would be singing Crede's praises. He's a gold glove-caliber hot corner guy but he can't stay healthy. Backs that have surgery performed on them don't tend to improve all that much. He has a great attitude and is a soft-spoken guiy in the clubhouse, but he's fragile. I'd take Santo over him.

"I can't believe how ignorant people are of Crede.

The guy plays top notch defense and his hitting was trending all in the right way. He will never be a OBP guy."


"I don't think people defending Crede on the basis of defense and power numbers grasp just how bad he is at getting on base."

This has to be a White Sox vs non-White sox fan thing.

Defense good, above average defense good(does this bare out in defensive matrixes?). A career high .323 OBP for a 30 year old, bad.

This deal makes sense so the Yankees can lose an OF commitment who is owed bank, and they need a 3b replacement. Hell if his defense is really spectacular he can be Betemit's late inning replacement.

Johnny Damon falling apart or not, still played in 141 games last year and still got on at a .351 clip while "falling apart". I don't think he's done and even in his decline yet again is far more valuable than Scott Podsednik. The trade makes sense if the money can be worked out.

http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/2005-2007-plus-minus-leaders.asp

The Fielding Bible's synopsis of best and worst fielders since 2005. Crede ranks fourth best among third basemen. Others involved in this discussion, Damon ranks as the 5th worst CF, figures to get worse. Something I didn't know at all was that Podsednik ranks as the most positive influencing left fielder since 2005. That's surprising to me as someone who watched him day in and day out, but I guess it makes sense given his range.

Personally, I do not think the Yankees should make this trade. I would love to see the Yankees move Damon. However, with the injuries the Yankees have had in the outfield in the past, what is the harm of keeping him.

I think the Yankees should use Betemit at third. Betemit, in a full year could most likely put up the same type of numbers offensively as Crede. They both would put up around the same slugging percentage, and betemit would probably have a higher batting average and on-base percentage. Now on to defense. Betemit has a career .960 FP and for Crede, .968. So, not really that much of a difference, even though Crede should be better. Also, even though money is never a problem with the yankees, Betemit would be cheaper than Crede, he is also younger, and not coming off back surgery.

"what is the harm of keeping him."

26 million over 2 years. Same harm in trading for him.

I still think this comes down to balancing cash.

OK, I've watched about 80% of the games Crede has ever played, so here's the deal on him.

Defensively, he's elite. There aren't five guys better than him. If your defensive metrics don't say that, then you need to start using different ones.

Offensively, his OBP always has been bad and always will be. However, his power is real and will probably be closer to his career high in 2006 than his career averages for the next several years. For all of you that have been ragging on Crede, pointing out that 2006 was a "career year", well he was at the age where you start having your career years. That's the dumbest sounding argument I've ever heard.

Now, after experiencing Rob Mackowiak in 2006, there is ZERO (NONE NIL NADA) chance that the Sox would put Damon in CF, so a trade would essentially be pushing Fields to 3B and putting Damon in LF.

Now the trade does give the Sox better speed and OBP at the expense of power, which IS something they need to do, but this trade would also downgrade their defense at an important position (3B) while improving their defense at an unimportant position (LF). That doesn't make sense.

The Sox will get their speed and OBP by upgrading SS and CF, so there is no need to make this trade. The Sox can be perfectly happy starting the season with Crede at 3B and Fields in LF. The real need that a Crede trade could fill is a bullpen arm. I'd be looking at teams who need a 3B and have a reliever to deal as trade partners for Crede.

I wouldn't trade Crede or anyone on the White Sox roster for Johnny Damon.

Years ago, when Damon was good, he was overrated. Now, he's not even close to being worth his salary. I wouldn't give up anything for the guy.

The Sox already have Jerry Owens who's about as good as Damon right now and he's making the minimum and has a chance to become better as Damon's last days are winding down.

Crede for Damon ? I hope and pray that KW isn't that foolish. I'm sure he isn't so this trade will not happen.

If he trades Crede to the Yanks he needs to get a young pitcher back or maybe an outfielder.

Well as a white sox fan I wouldn't mind seeing this Trade! Now I do think that the Crede is better than damon there's no doubt about that but with scott boras as his agent I don't see us resigning him he will probably get 5/60 on the market! The yankees should throw in a releiver to make this trade more attractive for kw!

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