Orioles Eyeing Cubs' Marshall?

Felipe Lopez blows.

That's like saying "Screw the Lexus... I'm getting a Kia".

haha this is getting ridiculous. But go after Lopez?? hahaha come on now thats a REAL drop off lol..just give the O's wat they want and get on with it... "That's like saying "Screw the Lexus... I'm getting a Kia"".Haha thanks for the good laugh of the day lol

It makes sense to me that the Orioles might ask this. With Loewen's injury, they could use another pitcher who is ready to start in the Majors, and Marshall fills the bill. And MacPhail has hinted all along that he wanted 5 for 1. So, I make the suggested deal: Marshall, Gallagher, Ceda, Veal, and Cedeno for Roberts. Maybe with some Payton add-on of some sort. Don't know if that seems reasonable to the Cubs; I'm betting not to Cubs' fans. But it jibes with my sense of what MacPhail might want.

Just make the deal. The Cubs are going to have to over pay for Roberts because they didn't make a legitimate offer this winter. The Cubs are already setting their batting order around him and has let just about everyone know how much they want Roberts at the top. It's time. Give the O's what they want and let's move on. I want to buy my Roberts Cubs jersey.

Marshall seems best suited for the Pen, and his recurring shoulder problems adds a bit of fright. If the Cubs are willing to offer something like Gallagher/Veal/Cedeno/???(rumored Ceda), then I don’t think adding Marshall should be that much of a problem for them. His situation is similar to Cedenos, slightly lower value to start with minimal chances for a future with the Cubs. They might ask for compensation (ie Payton involved), but I can see them going for that.

The biggest problem I would see is the Cubs 2008 rotation problems. Marshall is one of 5 guys on a depth chart for the 4-5th spots who could be seeing 2008 time. Gallagher is another… All of a sudden, the Cubs 4th-5th spot depth is limited to Lieber/Dempster/Marquis with little in the way of fall-backs. I would think the trading of Marshall in a package with Gallagher would almost have to be followed by the Cubs signing a Ramirez type off the scrap-heap to inject some depth back into the 2008 starter options.

Hysterical.

One report has the Orioles not knowing what players they are asking for and another has them asking for different players than reported. Oh yeah, the press has got this one nailed!

There are 4 options:
1) the trade includes Gallagher and Colvin
2) the trade includes Gallagher and Ceda
3) it is a 5-1 with Gallagher and Marshall in it
4) Roberts stays an Oriole

Cry 'unfair' all you want, but I think that's what is going on.

Stop looking at it from a cub point of view, that will help you better understand. The O's have something the Cubs want and are going to the MAX value they can for it, that simple. You can cry unfair or they are taking too long all you want. What reason do they have to pull the trigger? Honestly, they could play the season with Roberts, if they don't get the deal they want. This is not for the cubs to decide. If the cubs want him that bad they will pay the price.
And remember, try not to think of yourself as members of the teams in the trade, look at it form a far, they way you looked at it from O's/M's trade earlier this year.

I'm thinking it's Marshall instead of someone...not in addition to the package.

You're dead on, Airman.

Cub fans continue to say "Get r done already!" or "If I'm the Cubs, I say screw it and move on" but they AREN'T the Cubs, because the Cubs clearly want Roberts bad.

And the Orioles not only know that, but they also value Roberts.

That means, the price is going to be high and the Cubs are clearly willing to pay a high price, probably more than Roberts would earn in a different scenario. But it's NOT a different scenario, and the Cubs know now is the time to put in all their chips.

The Cubs know they'll be a significantly better team with Roberts THIS year than they'll be with Gallagher, Cedeno, Ceda, Veal, etc. and if/when those guys reach their peak, there's no guarantee this team will be a contender.

That makes Roberts worth the price, whatever that may be.

Part of why this deal, in theory, involves so many players is that none of the players suggested coming from the Cubs has a high enough upside, as least as perceived by the Orioles (and many outside experts, by the way--Baseball America, etc.). I don't think any of Gallagher, Marshall, Cedeno, Veal, or Ceda, even reaching upside, will be as valuable as Roberts is. Usually, I think, when you're taking a chance on prospects, you want a guy who might, at least, be as good as the guy you're giving up. That's not always possible, of course, but it's part of the goal. If we were talking Vitters or Donaldson--neither available, of course, because they're 2007 draft choices--we'd be talking guys with upside to match Roberts' value. Adam Jones had upside to approach Bedard's value, etc. If you wanted Tom Brady from the Patriots, you could offer ten very good players and be rejected. It's not that the players being offered for Roberts haven't value, it's just that none would seem to have upside equal to Roberts' value.

I think if Marshall is in there then there's bigger lower level non-roster slot guy involved and no Gallagher. Considering the intense puzzle putting together the Os roster right now is, it would be hard to take on Gallagher AND Marshall for roster reasons. That being said, Gallagher has options left. I think if the Cubs waited to call-up Gallagher last year by 2 months, this deal would have been done already a while back for less talent leaving the Cubs org. Starting his option clock invariably lessens his value slightly and limits the Orioles' flexibility. The BEdard deal was about the pure talent being exchanged. This one is about flexibility and good fits. The Cubs have the talent for a Roberts trade.

How many steps has Roberts lost since he's now off steroids? How well does McPhail know the Cub farm system? Is he going to snag a Ryne Sandberg from a familiar system ala Dallas Green in the 80's? How much is Hendry beholden to his old boss?
This 5 for 1 stuff is daydreaming in the Baltimore press's attempt to sell ink and hope for a rebuilding ballclub caught in a strong division.

Could be basemonkey. Gallagher hasn't exactly impressed this spring. He's not as ready as once thought. With the O's losing Patton, maybe a major league ready lefty makes sense instead.

You purposely misinterpret me, crunchy. I'm not saying Vitters should be included, if he could be, only trying to make a point by establishing talent base lines. Gallagher's value--likely 3rd starter, at best, has diminished. Veal had a horrible year last year--his value, despite his talent, is very iffy. Cedeno is faded. Marshall is 5th starter stuff. Ceda has great potential, and one year of low-level high performance. What in this is enticing to the Orioles?

I'm not comparing their pitching styles or long term potential, basemonkey. I'm only saying that it's possibly to be very successful with less stuff than what Marshall has.

We're talking five lottery tickets for an All Star. I'd as seen take the two draft choices for letting Roberts go, and at least writing out our own ticket numbers. Or saving Roberts to trade to someone who will offer a player with high upside.

I didn't purposely misinterpret you...it was purely accidental ;). It's hard to compare values, though. I think most rebuilding teams would rather have a 200 inning #3 starter for 6+ years (Gallagher's potential) to two years of a leadoff man/2nd baseman. But Roberts 2 years is far more of a certainty than 6 years of Gallagher's potential. So Baltimore will want to -- and should -- add players to lessen that risk. I think Marshall is a pretty known quantity, a back of the rotation type that will keep you in games and throw the occasional gem.

The analogy wasn't about comparing values. It was about how Oriole fans believed they were getting the world for Bedard, and it wound up being significantly less than the original package they hoped for. I think something similar will happen in this deal. The O's will get some of the players they really want, but not all of them.

And that isn't the reason for the hold up on the deal. The reason for the hold up is McPhail. It always is. Don't get me started on him. It isn't pretty!

Well as for me I actually don't want Colvin. Any Os fan who is asking for Colvin is nuts. I've seen him play and he looks like a bust to me. He is athletic but his swing is a mess. Sorry if I offend any Cubs fans here. I have the upmost respect for the Cubbies and their fans. He strikes me as one of those toolsy guys you draft on that alone and never turns those tools into actual consistent skills. Every organization has seen their share of them. It happens every now and then. I won't bother going into mentioning Cubs or Os busts since we've all covered our share of them in arguments and headahces over the decades.

For some of you Cubs fans who might wanna know, Rocky Cherry has had a helluva Spring. He's pitched in a ton of games and hasn't allowed a run yet.

yeah, i was looking at that yesterday base.
O's 1 Cubs nada on the trade front.

ndano's full of it. He's been trying that ridiculous lawyer story on everybody.

Anyway, basemonkey. I didn't think the deal was bad at all. In fact I think the O's made a great deal. But what was rumored and posted by some O's fans beforehand was outlandish. They got less than Triunfel, Morrow, and Clement. They still got great arms in Butler and Mickolio but it's still less than what people were throwing out there originally.

Furthermore, that story keeps changing. Originally there was Colvin and Soto in it (in addition to Marmol, Cedeno and Gallgher) and then he said something vague (obviously trolllng) by saying the other guy's name was "short" and started with a C, V, or P (obviously he was implying Ceda, Veal or Pie). And the story also involved signing papers...as if Angelos and this lawyer go back and forth constantly with papers to sign regarding the deal. Give it up, ndano. That story has so many holes, so many versions, so many changes and outright fabrications that it has all the earmarks of a hoax. And a poorly planned one at that. So stop it already. No one believes you.

The question I really want answered from Ndano is how did you shoot when you went golfing with the lawyer? And where did you play?

Someone on another thread said why don't the Cubs make a play for Orlando Hudson. Could the Cubs get Hudson who is a FA next year, then have the D-backs take the players add one/two and get Roberts?

And base, I have a question for you. I've been following the Os more than usual this spring. Why did they send Olson down so early? He was having a great spring. He certainly looks more impressive than Albers, Burres or Leicester for that 5th spot. What gives?

Some things you just decide with the performance you see with the eyes, not the numbers you get as a RP gives up a base with inherited runners, or a SS messes a play. Albers has an electric mid-90s fastball and deep sinker, which would surely be useful in the middle innings. And, Burres is our Marshall. There are a number of guys who are out of options, and, one Rule V guy. Sending Olson to the minors is more about giving him innings and forcing him to earn his way into the majors.

The one thing about the Orioles pitching staff this year will be that I expect the walk rate of some will be hard to stomach but it might be one of the hardest throwing staffs in the AL. Nearly everyone in the roation and pen at least throws mid-90s. And on top of that there's even more on the way. It's sort of unbelievable.

If this is what MacPhail can do then I'm on board. It's just been one year but already it's a major difference.

There was a post on a Cub thread a few weeks ago from a guy saying how we Cub fans are fickle and don't know how good of a job Andy did for us. I wanted to go bonkers on info on why Andy screwed this franchise up and the mistakes made. I believe he was here about 12 years. Oh, I was loaded for bear! But I thought why waste my time on it. But yeah, don't get me started on McAndy either.

INOK,
You should take a look at the Oriole 40 man roster. I know it well.

If the Orioles got Gallagher, Marshall, and Cedeno in a deal, they can easily fit on the 40 man roster.
Hypothetically Payton would go to the Cubs with Roberts and Fahey would be put on waivers in favor of Cedeno. Jon Liecester is really just taking up space.

Wow. I just showed how the Orioles could open up 3 spots for 3 potential players in a trade. Genius!

FYI, Colvin and Ceda do not need to be on a 40 man roster.

INOK, you should think twice before you put your paw in your mouth.

delaware_bird this is what YOU said! Please dont speak with your beak full.

There are 4 options:
1) the trade includes Gallagher and Colvin
2) the trade includes Gallagher and Ceda
3) it is a 5-1 with Gallagher and Marshall in it
4) Roberts stays an Oriole

Cry 'unfair' all you want, but I think that's what is going on.

Maybe you're right about Albers, Base. What I saw from him was an admittedly small sample size -- but it wasn't too good. But you know the O's players better than I do so I'll go with your assessment.
As far as bridging the gap, I think it's a good idea. Instead of rushing prospects, it's probably a good strategy to get an innings eater or two and then fill out the rotation with younger arms like Albers or maybe even Marshall. At worst, you buy time for your prospects. At best, you might find a keeper in the bunch.

Late to the party...and I didn't even bring a gift!

Anyway, Crunch, I gotta ask...where are you getting this thing about the O's wanting Morrow, Triunfel, Tillman, Clement, AND Jones during the Bedard talks? Sure, all of those names came up...they're the Mariners' top prospects and it WAS BEDARD they were talking about, so... Nevertheless, to my knowledge, neither McPhail nor any self-respecting O's fan expected ALL of those guys. The idea was to get two or three...which we did. Speaking for myself, I had hoped we'd get Triunfel, but not in addition to what we got. I wanted something like Bedard, Bradford, and maybe even Scott (M's need a LF) for Jones, Triunfel, Tillman, Butler, and Saunders. For Bedard alone we got three fo the four key components AND Sherrill and Mickolio. As noted above, there's a decent chance that we build Sherrill's value by using him as a closer, and sending him packing for a few more legit prospects. All in all, a helluva deal.

Characterizing the Bedard deal as somehow falling short of what was hoped for is simply obtuse, and by then comparing it- as 'Pie in the Sky fan stuff'- to the current Roberts proposal you're ignoring fact and demonstrating a clear bias (natural, but still...) in determining what is or isn't a realistic return. From the O's point of view, it seems like 'Pie in the Sky' thinking that has had the Cubs fans here clinging to thoughts of Gallagher, Cedeno, and Murton for Roberts (and continues as silly 'bargaining' every time a new report comes out saying someone else has been offered). Taking into account that none of the Cubs prospects have the upside of the M's prospects discussed, the pie in the sky talk is patently flawed from the start. Granted, Bedard is the better and more valuable player, but getting Jones is akin to picking up Vitters...three years down the line, when he's ready for the bigs. Likewise, Tillman's ceiling is scary...no pitcher in the Cubs system currently compares. Without the obvious Jones/Tillman types possessing enormous upside and/or proximity to the majors, the Cubs are being asked for players with either solid upside (Veal, Ceda) OR proximity to the majors (Gallagher, Cedeno). Quantity is the cost of having none of those prospects (available) with more readily visible star potential.

Having said all that, McPhail IS an idiot if, as Ndano has proposed, he nixed a deal due to the Cubs' unwillingness to part with Marmol. Of course the Cubs weren't going to part with him! Colvin/Ceda, Gallagher, Veal/Marshall, and Cedeno/Patterson would be plenty and if there's an offer on the table with any combination of those guys, he should jump and put an end to this nonsense once and for all.

basemonkey- I appreciate where you're coming from, but in the AL BEast, I question your point about needing only ML average players. How do we compete with Boston or New York with mediocrity? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but the talent has to come from somewhere?

First of all, milehigh, I am an Os fan of the last 3 or so decades. My idea of average is not your idea of average apparently. For instance, I don't consider Rodrigo an average guy. I consider Lilly an average SP, and, I still pitch my tent on that. If we got a average ML SP and one more for Roberts then that would be a major deal. I understand that Roberts is a great 2B, but, if anything grows on trees, it's high contact 2Bs with speed. I'm not saying that that is what Roberts is, but it would buffer such a loss. You might be right that the AL EAST conversions might be a bit inflated. We might need 90+ wins just to start thinking about taking the division. That being said, we won't take the division all by itself in this deal alone. There is a large gap between average and All-Star. It will take a series of shrewd moves to get things back to '83. The Bedard deal is one in the right direction. Drafting Weiters, Arrieta, Erbe are too. Picking up Guthrie for nothing is right there too (That has the potential to be one of the best waiver claims in Os history). The Os system has a lot right now going for it. A Roberts deal won't return another Wieters or Jones. Accept it. It's just a fact. But, if we got back an eventual Burnitz/Rondell White/Juan Encarnacion/Pat Burrell/etc type of position player with a Lilly type of pitcher for several controlled years, that's a haul. A good system can supply a competent 2B to plug holes fairly easily.

Also I just wanted to point out that if MacPhail nixes a deal that the Cubs already turned down, then that's also called a "turned down deal." If I offered to buy your car for 20 dollars and you declined, then I can't come back and "refuse it" at that point. :)

Milehigh, I remember reading the posts on the Bedard trade with Oriole fans thinking they would acquire all those players for Bedard. Many O's fans were lathered up at the idea, some said things like "no deal without Triunfel" I also remember one rational Oriole fan posting (it may have been basemonkey) about those rumors something to the effect of "Wow. Wouldn't expect all that for Bedard...but if that's what they're offering, we'd take it."

And mile, what's "obtuse" about saying that Mickolio and Butler are short of Triunfel, Morrow and Clement??? That's exactly what some irrational O's fans expected to get for Bedard and while the Orioles got a GREAT deal for Bedard (which I've said over and over again), it's still short of what some fans (irrational as they may be) were hoping for. And be careful about using the word "obtuse" when it comes to describing my post. I'll let it go this time except to say I could easily use the same word to describe your reading of my post. But I won't. It is clear, however, that you misinterpreted significantly enough to alter it's meaning.

Well, I've been watching this thing since the winter meetings. Roberts is overvalued. Theriot, in his rookie year, had 28 steals, and faded because he had NEVER had such a long schedule. He also is one of those kids whose teams WON every level he has played. He is that scrappy player no winning team is without. Giving up the farm for Roberts is foolhardy. Does anyone notice that the Cubs turned their season around when Theriot took over at SS? Lou started playing the kids on a regular basis. Take note of the dominance of Marmol. DeRosa played every position with an injury and played it well, 1B for Lee, 3B for ARam, RF all while being consistent at the plate. The Cubs do NOT need Roberts.

Agreed, Jeff. If the Cubs overpay for Roberts at this point it will be a mistake. Theriot is a solid leadoff guy if he can maintain his pre-September numbers (in fact, it's mostly the last 2 weeks of the year that did him in numbers-wise). His intangibles, mental makeup and baseball IQ are off the charts. Every good team has a Theriot to keep it glued together. I'm also excited that Fontenot has taken so well to SS this spring. He's the perfect LH complement to spell Theriot. He provides the same energy and intangibles, he can provide a similar OBP from the leadoff spot and he can keep Theriot fresh for the entire year. Neither Theriot or Fontenot is a 150 game a year player but between the two I think the Cubs have one good solid SS/Leadoff guy. Good enough to make a run at this thing.

Count me in on the folks that have soured on Roberts. It would have been nice. I am happy enough with Theriot as the leadoff. (now I expect O's fans to pipe in and say he has no expierence etc.. but I will counter with Roberts didnt at one time either)

I was accepting of Gallagher, Cedeno, Veal, and one more but.. I am with Crunch on the Inge plan. I don't know what it will take to get him but... works for me. Between Theriot, Fontenot, and De-Ro that would be enough in the middle infield. Ward can spell Lee at first and De-Ro Ramirez at Third.

What is this about the cubs getting sour on pie? I read that Lou said the order would be as it stands

Theriot
Soriano
Lee
Ramirez
Fukudome
De-Ro
Soto
Pie
Pitcher

So that indicates that they are going to battle with Pie.

The Cubs need Crisp even less than Roberts. He can play center, granted, but he will not hit. Why do we need to trade for a .240 hitter? Marquis, even the head case that he is, is a good first half pitcher. After the All-Star break, he is a pinch runner/hitter. He is a better hitter than Crisp...Let Felix play, give him the same shot C. Patterson did. His D will mean more runs than Crisp's hitting....

Inge started in CF today fo the Tigers. It makes me wonder if Cubs' scouts were in attendance.

Yeah, McPhail did this all the time in Chicago. He sat on his thumb and let good deals pass him by. Nothing would make me happier at this point than for the Cubs to say, "No thanks" when McPhail comes knocking on their door. It would be exactly the type of thing that happened while he was in Chicago. Apparently he hasn't learned as the clock is about to run out again. I'm hoping that it does. I have serious doubts as to how much this deal really helps the Cubs over the alternative. The alternative is having Inge as a subersub, DeRosa as a starter, Theriot as a leadoff guy, and Gallagher and Marshall ready and waiting in reserve in case there is injury or ineffectiveness in the Cubs starting five. All things considered, that's a pretty decent alternative.

I'm just trying to be prepared for any scenario here.

I agree. The Red Sox appeared to get hot after they replaced Crisp in the lineup with Ellsbury.

Forgive me this may the Memosas talking but..

"Nothing would make me happier at this point than for the Cubs to say, "No thanks" when McPhail comes knocking on their door. It would be exactly the type of thing that happened while he was in Chicago. Apparently he hasn't learned as the clock is about to run out again. I'm hoping that it does."

Then when McPhail comes back begging, we can say.. Gallagher, Cedeno, and Murton. ahhhhh ha ha ha ha... sorry.. I read that and couldn't resist.

I like Marquis. Please note like and not love, but I believe he kept us afloat the first half of last season. What scares me the most is relying on Dempster as a starter. He didn't make me feel that good as a closer even though is record wasn't that bad.

"Actually Crisp can play as good a CF as Pie and he's more experienced. Not that I want him over Pie...
But here's a scenario I can see happening:
The Cubs trade for Crisp
That opens up the opportunity to trade Pie to the Orioles and make Colvin your future CF."

I'm sorry to say that I think this is going to happen soon. I believe we will bring in Roberts, Payton, and Crisp and loose Pie. The writing is on the wall. All you have to do is listen to Lou and read/here between the lines.

''You know, the only concern that I really have here is, what do we do here in center field?'' Piniella said, referring to having no legitimate backup, or alternative, for projected starter Felix Pie. ''That is a bit of a concern.''

I believe Lou wants something done (Crisp for Marquis) in center field and Hendry will take the next step for Roberts and Payton. This is just what I think is going to happen, NOT what I want to happen.

Great, I hope your right. This stuff is wearing on me. I can't imagine what is doing to our players morale.

I would like the Cubs to actually keep Marquis for the 1st half of the season...you don't know what is going to happen. I would personally put Marquis as the 5, Lieber as the 3, and that way you split the lefties. Dempster is used to the bullpen, and has done fairly well there, so he could be a useful guy in an already stacked pen.