The market for some of the top hitters figures to begin taking shape today as the GM Meetings kick off in Phoenix, and the Mariners are already being connected to arguably the top two bats on the market. Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports tweeted last night that the M’s have interest in Hanley Ramirez, although one source gave him the impression that Seattle’s priority is Victor Martinez. However, Bob Nightengale of USA Today Sports tweets that the Mariners are “aggressively pursuing” Ramirez and have expressed to his camp how badly the team wishes to sign him.
Ramirez could fill the Mariners’ hole at shortstop, and while his defense there is no longer a plus (it is, in fact, considered to be a significant negative), his bat would be an unequivocal upgrade over the combined .239/.295/.344 batting line posted by Seattle shortstops last season. There’s also the possibility that the Mariners could have a mind to put Ramirez in a corner outfield spot after he told teams last week that he’s willing to play anywhere on the diamond, though that seems unlikely, as Ramirez hasn’t played a game in the outfield in the Majors or Minors.
If there Mariners do indeed sign Ramirez, one has to wonder what it means for the future of shortstop Brad Miller. After opening the season as Seattle’s shortstop, Miller, 24, found himself unable to repeat the offensive success he showed in 2013. He struggled to a .221/.288/.365 batting line but played at least passable, if not above average defense at shortstop and is a sound baserunner. It’s possible that he could fill a utility role based on that ability at short, though other teams would likely have interest in acquiring Miller, who just recently turned 25. The Mariners also have Chris Taylor, 24, in their ranks, and Taylor was fairly impressive late in the season. He batted .287/.347/.346 in 151 plate appearances, although that line was bloated by a .398 average on balls in play. Taylor also whiffed in nearly 26 percent of his plate appearances and showed minimal power (eight doubles, no homers) after also showing limited pop throughout his minor league career.
The Mariners were one of the possible destinations listed for Ramirez in Zach Links’ Free Agent Profile of him last week. Zach ultimately predicted a six-year, $132MM contract for Ramirez. While a contract in that range is of course a steep price to pay, it pales in comparison to the 10-year, $240MM contract the M’s doled out to Robinson Cano last offseason. The Mariners also have a rising payroll thanks to a new television deal and their success in 2014, and the only two long-term pacts they have on the books are Cano and Felix Hernandez (though that duo is significant). Rosenthal does note that some sources with whom he’s spoken doubt that the Mariners would want to take on another $100MM+ contract.
Many have speculated that the Mariners will show strong interest in the soon-to-be 36-year-old Martinez, who is said to be seeking a four-year deal. Seattle designated hitters batted just .206/.276/.335 last season, so Martinez would represent a similarly large offensive upgrade for the team. Unlike Ramirez, adding Martinez wouldn’t unseat any young players such as Miller and Taylor, and the price tag, while still steep, could be half as much as that of Ramirez over a span of two fewer years. Of course, there’s also more concern for offensive decline with Martinez, who is entering his age-36 season, while Ramirez is entering his age-31 campaign.
Both Ramirez and Martinez received qualifying offers from their former clubs, but both are considered locks to reject the QO in search of a large multi-year deal. That means the Mariners would have to forfeit the No. 21 overall pick in order to sign either player. Should they sign both — which seems unlikely, though not impossible — the team would forfeit its first- and second-round selections. I listed both Ramirez and Martinez as possible fits for the M’s in their Offseason Outlook last month.
I didnt see the M’s as willing to take on another massive contract alongside Cano and King Felix, but if they are reaching out to Hanley so aggressively, then it would seem they are not averse to it.
I dont think its long before we start to see some heating up of the FA market, it could be the classic domino case of when one falls, the others follow quickly.
I can see the domino effect with the starting pitching, alot of the 2nd and 3rd tier pitchers are waiting for the big 3 to set the prices and any team that misses out on them could get desperate and overpay for a guy like McCarthy or Liriano.
Yep, agree with that completely.
It makes sense for the second tier pitchers especially to wait until Scherzer/Lester et al to sign, increasing the desperation of the losing bidders on them and hopefully getting these second/third tier guys quite a bit more money than they would have had if they had signed quickly.
Actually I think McCarthy may sign early. There are essentially 2 FA markets now, the market for those who received QO’s and the market those that did not. McCarthy will be highly sought after as the second best pitcher that did not recive a QO.
Santana and Liriano on the other hand will have to wait for Shields and Scherzer to sign.
The Yankees already extended a deal to McCarthy, he and his agents said they are waiting for the big 3 to sign. That was posted over the weekend on here, I think yesterday?
Im missed that report but even so we are still in early part of the off season, most of the current reports are more posturing by both agent and teams than an actual representation of the market.
This time last year Cruz’s agent was talking 5/75 and Santana was seeking 100+ Million. A lot can change as the winter meetings approach.
Hope he gets back to the yankees, Definitely a guy worth getting back was for the most part. Would need pitching help with CC being as hurt as he’s been lately.He’s been very ineffective pitching wise the past couple of seasons.MCcarthy got lots of strikeouts when he needed them and lots of groundballs which you’d expect from him.
You could be right there, even if McCarthy doesnt sign early hes going to have a significant advantage over the QO tagged pitchers in terms of no. of teams pursuing him and ultimately probably $$$ offered.
Another big bat could actually get the Mariners in the playoff discussion for next season, after their near miss this year.
Agreed but Hanley is not the answer.
Unless Seattle has a lock for DH, I think they should go for Cruz over Hanley. But if I were GM, I would be studying his Home Run spray chart. If more than 70% those home runs translate to long balls in Seattle I’d go for him over Hanley since he’d be much cheaper. I don’t see a big market for Cruz.
what? Cruz can DH anywhere, I’d be surpised if he doesn’t get his deal first. In fact I see the Tigers going after him if V mart departs.
Of course he can DH anywhere but he’s not a fit everywhere. Boston cant take him, and the Yankees wouldn’t be a destination for him either. But if V-Mart leaves Detroit, wouldn’t that imply he got his deal before Cruz?
Why not? Granted, I’d like to see them get Martinez or Cruz first, but SS has been an offensive liability for the M’s since A-Rod left. When Hanley’s healthy he’s one of the best bats out there.
Miller put up excellent numbers at the plate in 3 of the last 4 months of the season. For a team that likely has financial limitations, adding yet another short stop (they also have Ketel Marte on the rise) to their system makes little sense–especially one who wouldn’t be cheap.
Shifting Miller to the outfield like they did with Ackley might be a possibility, but this would seem to be an odd way to construct a team defensively. Sacrificing defense for a boost in offense isn’t likely going to get them much further ahead.
I think it would be better to try acquire Kemp via trade
You can get V mart at 2 years 40 million. Why would the Mariners give up two to three prospects for a guy who is making 160 million for the next 5 years.
V-Mart is looking for 3-4 years, so i dont think anyone is getting him for two.
3/45, maybe, he may even be looking for 4/60, thats to be seen, but theres no way hes signing for two years.
I’d say he’ll get four year if he wants it. The only way he accepts a three year deal would be with the Tigers, one would think.
I would think so yes, his preference is to return to Motown.
I think 3/45 would get it done, perhaps even with a fourth year team option.
I’d think that too. If their is no option included, I’d say 3/48.
Kemp is owed 5/107 and I would imagine the Dodgers would kick in a bunch of cash in any deal. Not that they should even trade him in the first place unless return is massive…
Or we keep miller at SA and put Hanley in LF. I personally would make Cano DH and put Hanley at 2B
Yes, but are the Mariners ‘Strenuously’ interested in these ‘Few’ Good Men!
Negotiation 101. Tell the other side how badly they want to sign them.
I can see them signing Martinez – he is a lower risk signing because it would be for fewer years. They still need other upgrades though; how much payroll space do they have slash will they add this year?
lower risk: 36 yrs and he want 3-4 yr
And if he is Victor Martinez for 2 years and then mediocre Victor Martinez for the next two, he would still be better than any of their other DH options. Hanley has injury concerns and would want 6 years. Victor wouldn’t get the wear and tear of playing in the field. I wonder if they could front-load the deal so he is getting paid above value for years 1-2 and undervalue for the last 2.
It seems the Mariners are always connected to players with limited defensive value.
Rather see them spend on Lester. Sign Bulter.
Trade Iwakuma for Cespedes.
That’s 2 right handed bats improving their biggest need at OF and DH.
Rotation better, Line-up much better.
That’s a playoff team And Under 140M.
Giving away Iwakuma for Cespedes?
That would verge on the criminal.
1yr for 1yr. Similar slary. Its a small criminal that can help them win.
It would still be madness.
Imakuma has amassed 9.5 rWAR in the last two years alone and will only cost a paltry $7m for what he produces this year.
Cespedes has put up 5.7 WAR in that same time while costing a hell of a lot more, and will be getting $3.5m more than Iwakuma in 2015.
It would be a criminal offence to do that trade, no matter how much it might make some sort of sense.
fwiw steamer has both of them as 3 win players next year. iwakuma will be 34 next year so age may catch up to him soon. as far as money, i don’t think either team would be too concerned as there’s no long term commitment
You need to trade somthing good to get something.
Kuma has more value, sure, but is also older then Cespedes.
3.5M is like nothing nowadyas, plus you can always add filler or cash in trades.
Unless Kuma is willing to extend; otherwise, Lester will help Ms much more then Hanley.
You also have to factor in Iwakumas stellar performance, with, his first year aside, very questionable and patchy returns from Cespedes.
I dont think you’d find a GM in the league who would say that was a good trade to make from Seattles point of view (well, maybe RAJ but he doesnt count).
As a Red Sox fan, I’d take it and run.
both have a year left on their deals and i cant see either team signing their current player. m’s have young pitching, sox have plenty of outfielders. iwakuma would probably take a shorter deal if he re-signed with the sox- and boston have been weary of long term deals to pitchers.
You are speaking of the Billy Butler whose power has just about disappeared over the past two years? Also, I agree with everyone that your supposed trade for Cespedes is just awful and would immediately lead to Jack Z being fired on the spot. As I said before, you don’t fix one hole (outfield) by making another (trading a very, very solid number 2).
If they had to sign Hanley, would he necessarily be their SS? He has said he is willing to play other positions, but does that include LF? If so, I could see the M’s using him out there. Of course, they’ll have to overpay him I would think, because he’ll want to play SS or 3rd before LF, meaning he’d take the same contract with another team to play SS.
Yeah, I agree. Hanley at SS doesn’t make much sense for the M’s. Hanley as a LFer does make sense.
Although I’m not sure the money/performance will match up. Ramirez is an elite hitter compared to other SSs. In the OF, the bar is so much higher, and he’s been quite inconsistent over the course of his career. I’m not sure he’d be worth 20+ mil/year as a LFer.
You are 100% correct.
I understand Hanley doesn’t have the best numbers at shortstop but I would be quite entertained seeing a double play duo involving ol’ Hanley and Mr. Cano. 😀
The way Hanley plays defense, you’re likely to see that two, possibly three times a season.
I am going to play fantasy gm of the M’s now. I would try to get both V Mart, and Cuddyer because they both aren’t going to command a 6 year deal. I’d offer Cuddyer, 2 years at 14.5 million and offer V Mart, 2 years with a club option for a third year at 20 million per year. Then make a deal of Walker, for Starlin Castro
Cuddyer is going to cost a pick if he decline his QO, which he shouldn’t, because he’ll end up making ~5 million next year if he don’t accept (unless he signs after the draft). Basically, I don’t think Cuddyer is going to be available, as he’ll be accepting his QO, one would think. Unless, that is, he is a blind fool.
VMart fits the M’s needs a lot more than Ramirez. Ramirez would have to play SS, a position he plays worse than Derek Jeter did, or corner outfield, a position he has never played in his pro career. Its just not worth committing 100+ million to a player you don’t have a position for.
I think Seattle just wants credible, established bats at this point.
He does not play SS nearly as badly as Derek Jeter did. He’s below average,, maybe even bad, but not that bad.
2014 Dereck Jeter: UZR -8.3, UZR/150 -12.5
2014 Hanley Ramirez: UZR -10.3, UZR/150 -15.6
Hanley played 200 inning less than Derek Jeter and still cost his team more defensively that Jeter did at age 40. Hanley Ramirez isn’t just a poor defensive SS, he was the second worst defensive SS in the MLB last year (Yunel Escobar was the worst)
The curious case of Yunel Escobar: Third in UZR in 2013 and last in 2014.
That was one year. It’s ridiculous to make judgments from one year with a stat that fluctuates as much as UZR. Hanley’s UZR/150 was 0.5 last year and was better than his 2014 rate in almost every season of his career. He’s going to have to replicate his awful 2014 defense a few more times before he’s anywhere near Jeter’s level.
If you want a bigger sample size, look at career numbers.
Derek Jeter Career UZR/150: -7.1
Hanley Ramirez career UZR/150: -8.8
Thats a sample size of over 10,000 innings each, and that includes Jeter age 31-40 seasons. Hanley Ramirez is an incredibly bad defensive SS.
As a Dodgers fan, I concur. I’ll miss his bat, but the glove? Not so much.
mariners seem to be doing what angels did a few years back.
About “the Mariners’ hole at shortstop” …
The Steamer600 projections, which assume each player will get 600 plate appearances next season, rank Seattle’s Brad Miller and Chris Taylor fourth and sixth among all shortstops in 2015 WAR:
http://www.fangraphs.com/projections.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&type=steamer600&team=0&players=0&sort=25,d
Hanley Ramirez narrowly edges out Miller and Taylor in the projections.
I am thinking that Jack Z sees it as a hole less because of WAR and defense (which is where Taylor and Miller provided their most value) but more because of their lack of offensive production, something that Hanley would provide much better than. Now should they sign Hanley? Oh no, he should not even be mentioned, but just realize he is only being mentioned because he would be able to help boost Seattle’s weak offense (though VMart could do the same for under half the cost.)
I REALLY don’t want Hanley.
please, just not the Mariners
I hate the notion of losing a draft pick and all that money for an aging DH who just had a career year at 35. The M’s should trade for DH and OF and spend their FA money for pitching. Pitchers like coming to Safeco…hitters don’t. We can get more value picking up one of the top FA pitchers than we can with Martinez.
Evan Gattis is available, apparently. I would go hard after him to partner with Zunino and DH.
If they’re really willing to open the budget, I can see them landing both of them. Seattle has a good thing going for them and just need to add the offense.
Right now braves are shopping Gattis, he would be great Dh and they can get hanley or another bat
V-Mart/Hanley, two big bats with terrible defense.
Interesting, Seattle.
VMart would be paid simply for DHing, not for his defense or lack thereof.
Indeed.
V-Mart is a pure DH, like Ortiz, so you are paying for his bat only, but what a sweet swinging true bat it is.
Well VMart may get 1B duties like he did last week, but yeah your point is fair.
My overall point is that apparently the Ms are after more offense almost at the point that its at the cost of defense.
I personally cannot see them picking up Hanley. As a Mariner fan I believe that a lot of what is being passed around in rumors is smoke an mirrors. The team gave up on Smoak, which opened up first for Morrison. In all honesty they seem like they are willing to let it ride with Morrison. The Mariners lacked consistency in the outfield all year as well as DH. If they are really going to address anything I believe it would be one of these areas. While SS was limited in its run production, SS was not the real issue with this team.
I’d have Cano full time DH. I don’t want my 270m man out in the field possibly getting hurt I want him purely focused on hitting .330 with 30hrs a year.
I’d sign Hanley to be either LF 3B or 2b and move Seager to 2B if Hanley can’t handle it. I’d try and package up something to get Cueto from Reds. I thought I read somewhere on here a week ago that the reds might be interested in sending him off. Offer up Saunders, Chris Taylor/brad miller and a younger arm and see what happens.
Nelson Cruz: 137 WRC+
Hanley Ramirez: 135 WRC+
Maybe Seattle can sign Ramirez as a DH who occasionally plays the field (maybe when Brad Miller sits against a lefty)?
Don’t much like the idea of Hanley at SS. He’s on the other side of 30 and from what I gather has never been good defensively to begin with. Martinez would be a much needed boost at DH.
I still sort of prefer the idea of them trying to trade for a young hitter by dealing one of their young SPs in package, then going and signing one of the FA starting pitchers.
You mean like the Pineda for Montero trade?
I just don’t expect them to be able to fill all their needs via free agency. Therefore they have to look to their next source of value, which is their young pitching. I also think it’s probably asking too much of Paxton and Walker to fill out the rotation for an entire year, so there’s that aspect of it as well.
Sign Hanley and Lester, trade for Stanton.
I mean, one can dream right lol. But seriously, if we can do 2 of those moves (most likely only 1 can happen), that’d be great.
i was mad about Michael Cuddyer but this works lol only if u get both though
Yeah, I don’t like the idea of getting Hanley at all. You already have Taylor and Miller. If you are going to get a SS, you might as well just go all out and go for someone like Tulo. Otherwise, find ways to upgrade the OF.
I’m okay with V-Mart, but would rather see them go out and get someone like Bautista, Kemp (if most of that contract is eaten), or ideally, Stanton since I don’t think they will sign him long-term. I don’t know how much money they have to spend this off-season, but if they could get something like Kemp, V-Mart, and Lester, I think we would be set. 3-4-5 of Cano, Kemp, V-Mart and a rotation starting with Felix, Lester, and Kuma would be great…
What would it take to trade for alexei Ramirez?