This is the second half of an interview with White Sox GM Rick Hahn, conducted by MLBTR contributor Brett Ballantini. Click here to read Part I.
In the second part of the conversation, Hahn addresses the disappointing 2016 season that drove his team’s rebuild, the Hall of Fame chances for all-time favorite Mark Buehrle, and a truly unexpected text received last July:
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You were best in the bigs along with the crosstown Chicago Cubs on May 9, but plummeted from there, as the seventh-worst team in the majors after May 9. Was there a specific moment during the free-fall where the brain trust said, “we know what we have to do,” or did the season end with you still unsure whether it would be another all-in winter?
We knew what we wanted to accomplish [as of] last July. However, we did not feel the opportunities were quite robust enough at that time to pull the trigger on multiple fronts. The desire to make dramatic moves to more rapidly further this rebuild was strong. But we had to resist the urge to make deals that might have declared that we were embarking in a new direction, but really didn’t provide us with what we felt were adequate returns for some of the players we were discussing back then.
When the team got off hot, what were you feeling? Was it, “Jeez, this is great, smiles all around,” or are you more a worrywart concerned that Mat Latos’ BABIP is unsustainable?
I don’t want to make it sound like we did not enjoy the 23-10 start last year. We did. We were winning a lot of ballgames late and were getting some tremendous pitching performances up and down the staff. However, all of us are trained to kind of be prepared for what could go wrong.
Even in the midst of that run, we made the decision to let John Danks go. Even while six games up [in first place], we felt that the back end of our rotation needed some sort of further reinforcement beyond the addition of Miguel Gonzalez, and that the bullpen was getting severely taxed. We were concerned about some areas of depth where we lacked sufficient reinforcements in the minors. Unfortunately, each of those areas of concern turned out to be valid as spring turned to summer.
Noting that injuries did not help matters, was the 2016 White Sox catching production anything more than a black hole scenario from your perspective? Framing appeared to crush the starting staff, particularly lefties Chris Sale, Jose Quintana, and Carlos Rodon. Clearly releasing a plus-framer in Tyler Flowers on the hunch that Alex Avila and Dioner Navarro would be an overall-plus move did not work out. Has your analysis of catchers/catching changed or evolved coming out of 2016?
We obviously did not get what we were hoping for out of our catching last season, but that extended beyond a framing issue. I do have to say, for all the abuse that Tyler took from certain segments while he was with us, it is nice that he is at least now getting some credit for his framing ability, which he worked very hard at.
The decision last offseason was based upon a desire to inject some added run-scoring ability into an offense that badly needed it, without too many feasible avenues open to doing such. We knew that would come at the expense of some of the framing numbers, but we also view a catcher’s defensive contributions more broadly. Framing is certainly important, but so is the ability to throw out runners, block balls in the dirt, know our pitchers, and adjust game plans on the fly, among other things. In the end, we did not get as much out of the change as we anticipated because we did not get the performances that we expected—not because we were oblivious to the exchange we were attempting to make.
When we talked a year ago, you acknowledged that one regret about your former first-rounder Gordon Beckham is that he never tasted failure until the majors, which ultimately worked against him. Tim Anderson was expected to play all of 2016 in Charlotte, but got the call at midseason and impressed across the board. Assuming that players getting a taste of failure is a key element in your decision to give him the call up to the White Sox, it can’t be as simple as waiting until a guy has a 15-K week or gets bombed in two straight starts. Is there an element of a player’s makeup that most impacts your decision to “rush” him to the bigs?
The makeup element to this is huge. You are correct that we, like most clubs, view failure in the minors as part of a player’s development. More precisely, learning to respond to adversity outside of the glare and scrutiny of the majors will likely serve a player well once he inevitably encounters similar hardships in the big leagues.
With Tim, he did have some small slumps during his time in the minors, and he certainly had to make some adjustments along the way. But from an ability standpoint, it was clear he was ready for the final stages of his development, which occurs at the big league level. Prior to bringing him up, we had a number of conversations with Buddy Bell, Nick Capra (who was our farm director at the time), and others in player development about whether anyone had any doubts that Timmy could handle it. Everyone believed in Timmy’s makeup and ability to cope with the adjustments required as any player makes that transition. Obviously, his performance was strong, but how he handled himself was even more impressive.
Pitching coach Don Cooper has had remarkable success with diagnosing even the smallest quirks preventing a pitcher from maximizing his potential. Is Lucas Giolito just a Coop camp away from resetting himself back into a breakout MLB arm?
Sure. I like that. Look, we’re excited to see all these new guys work with our coaches. Not just in the coming weeks in ML camp, but throughout the season. They each have some development left ahead of him, but we have the luxury of being patient with them, to allow our coaches to work with them, and to give the player time to be put in the best position to maximize their abilities.
Rick Renteria had a sneaky-great season managing the Cubs in 2014, and got a really tough break losing that job when Joe Maddon became available. Was Rick already on your radar by that time, as a guy who would project as a great pilot? What did he show you with the Cubs that made you want to get him in a White Sox cap—and how were your observations or hunches confirmed when he worked under Robin?
Ricky had a sterling reputation with coaches, players, and front office people alike going back to his San Diego Padres days, and was likely on a list somewhere in most front offices at that time. We had heard about his work ethic, ability to teach, passion for the game, openness to new ideas and debate, and communication skills over the years, but it is difficult to really appreciate that until you are working with him. Sox fans are really going to like and appreciate what he brings to dugout over the coming years.
You worked closely with Mark Buehrle for years, and in 2003 and 2007 you negotiated extensions with him in turbulent waters. With his almost-stealth efficiency, Buehrle comes in around 52 WAR across Baseball-Reference, FanGraphs, and Baseball Prospectus measures, with a no-hitter, perfect game, and win-save in the World Series. Is he a Hall-of-Famer?
I’m allowed to still be a fan sometimes, right? Good. Sure, Mark Buehrle is a Hall-of-Famer. I say that with complete bias and 100% based upon the fact that I loved watching him pitch. Objectively, I realize that the true answer may be a little different, but for these 30 seconds, I don’t care. Mark was a great White Sox, a tremendous teammate, and a joy for all of us to watch during his time with the club.
What is the weirdest moment you’ve had as GM?
One afternoon last summer, I was filling in as first-base coach for my son’s Little League team because one of his coaches had a conflict. It was playoff game, the team was making a nice late rally, and the whole thing was a great little escape for me.
Then my phone started blowing up. After a text from [manager] Robin Ventura that read, “No. Actually, he’s cut up all the jerseys,” I knew my little escape was over….
Follow Brett Ballantini on Twitter @PoetryinPros
The jerseys… lol. Had to get that little jab in on Sale.
Unlike Gordon Beckham, Tim Anderson did experience periods of extensive failure in his minor league career. He was typically a slow starter at every level in which he debuted, including last season at AAA Charlotte.
Of course, Beckham was also a highly decorated NCAA player and advanced college bat coming out of the University of Georgia when the White Sox selected him with their first pick in the 2008 Rule 4 June Draft.
Anderson was also a White Sox first round selection in 2013 but he hailed from a Junior College in Mississippi and never even played high school baseball until his junior season. He was a star basketball player in high school and couldn’t even secure a baseball scholarship to a four year college upon graduation.
Great interview(s) Love the candor.
Hope the Sox have cleared out any members of the Pro Scouting or Analytics dept. who thought they would get anything from Navarro or Avila.
Agree about the interview…both parts!
As far as the decision on the catchers, it should be noted that Alex Avila was signed (by his dad!) to a MLB contract to return to his original former team in Detroit while 33-year old Dioner Navarro is still a free agent waiting for a call from some (other!) GM.
Apparently, the White Sox still can’t get enough of veteran catchers, even former ones, who have questions when it comes to defense and framing in particular. After all, they recently signed former backstop Geovany Soto to a minor league deal with a spring training invite. As things currently stand, the right-handed hitting Soto will likely break camp as the platoon partner with left-handed hitting catcher Omar Narvaez to begin the 2017 season.
How does pitch framing benefit baseball or the fans in any way?
Would Dback’s fans really rather watch Jeff Mathis “frame” than Wellington Castillo hit? I seriously doubt it.
Fooling the 60 year old umpire should not be a “skill”. Robo-umps, please.
Pitch-framing isn’t just about “fooling” the Umps by getting Balls called as Strikes. The Sox’ C’s were so bad they lost the bottom 2 inches of the strike zone. It was crushing to watch starters throw 6 pitches over the plate and only getting 2 called strikes. You could see them being forced to throw meatballs just to get a strike.
PS- They also didn’t hit. So there was no “either/or” scenario there.
What you say is correct, but it’s still fooling the umps.
I hate the whole concept of framing and also the idea of MLB continually wanting to change the definition of the strike zone itself to address periods of pitching and hitting domination in it’s game. On top of all that, umpires are still inconsistent with their calling of balls and strikes regardless of rule changes.
It’s about time MLB seriously considers the implementation of laser strike zone technology that is also pre-programmed for each batter. This would eliminate the games biggest judgement call once and for all and might also have the added benefit of speeding up the game with instantaneous calls that can’t be disputed by players and managers.
Plus if you ever watched a Jon Lester pitched game he whines at some point every game about the strike zone. His catchers probably got him 300 more strike calls than the Sox best starter too. K zone then in the playoffs just drives everyone nuts. Have the old timers back there just to determine foul tips, plays at the plate, etc. The only fair way to do this for teams and pitchers is to use technology.
Having a strike called a strike is not “fooling” someone. There’s a thing called PitchF/x. Been around for a decade. These are measurable effects.
Maybe familiarize yourself with how much of the actual strike zone bad catchers cost the Sox last year before giving opinion on “fooling” people and the “concept” of framing.
Maybe familiarize yourself with how robo-umps would address the things you are complaining about, also.
Umpires calling strikes balls is just bad umping.
In regards to using technology, I’m pretty sure there was an E60 or something like that on it not too long ago. If I recall correctly, they didn’t tell anyone that they were testing their process out and wanted to see if people would notice any differences. I think there was like a red or green light that would flash in CF if it was a ball or strike, and then the umpire would call it accordingly. If I’m not mistaken, it went pretty perfectly.
I’ve wanted ball and strike calls to be automated for years both for the consistency and because it seems baseball’s replay rules overlook how much of an effect a bad call on a pitch can have.. They review close calls at first base, but whether a pitch is called a ball or strike on a full count can impact a game just as much.
Absolutely agree. John Lackey is even worse than Lester with his constant whining! lol
Btw-Lester also benefited from having Davis Ross as his personal catcher with the Cubs (Red Sox as well). Ross is considered to be one of the premier pitch framers in MLB and was excellent at that again in 2016. Of course, Ross retired following the season so it will be interesting to see what effect that will have on Lester’s numbers in 2017.
I wanted robo-umps but it wasn’t a pressing issue for me.
Until about a week ago I thought about it and realized pitch framing is awful for baseball and needs to be killed.
Robo-umps are the only way to do it.
Even if the robo-umps aren’t 100% perfect….what we have now is just awful. Umps who can’t call balls and strikes even before the framing. Then framing on top of it.
And as a result, teams get these catchers who can’t hit and can’t throw out baserunners (two things that entertain fans) to get guys who can frame (which offers ZERO entertainment value).
Get rid of it. Get the calls right. No reason not to do it.
I’m not sure they are understanding what pitch framing does. Please move on from this cause if you don’t understand what a good pitch framer does for your pitchers than you really don’t understand the game to well.
I understand the value of pitch framing in the current state of the game.
It shouldn’t be part of the game. It hurts the game and offers no positive value. Robo umps would eliminate it.
So, let’s eliminate it.
How does it benefit the game or the fans to have framing as part of the game?
As a Sox fan, I don’t think Buehrle belongs in the HOF. Solid pitcher, fun to watch, good teammate – all that. But he was never dominant over the course of a season, let alone several. He was very durable, but I don’t think that makes someone a Hall of Famer.
Mark Buehrle was a pleasure to watch with his pitch efficiency and quick pace on the mound. He was also an excellent fielder with a great pick-off move. If every pitcher went about their business like Buerle, there would be little talk about speeding up the pace of the game.
As a member of the White Sox he had a profound impact on Chris Sale. Although they had entirely different mechanics and stuff, Sale mimicked Buehrle’s quick, no-nonsense pace on the mound. When either of them started and were effective you could expect a game to be completed in around 2 hours, sometime less.
I remember a game he pitched against Halladay that was done in about 1:45.
He dominated the entire 2005 regular season and postseason. Bartolo Colon’s 20 wins is why he didn’t get the cy young that year. His no hitter was essentially a perfect game because he picked off the runner at first.
If he were on a higher profile club during his prime he’d be a shoe in.
Actually, Mark Buehrle threw two no-hitters in his career, including one perfect game.
The contest you referred to was his first no-hitter on April 18th, 2007 at home on a damp 40 degree night against the Texas Rangers. The only batter to reach base against Buehrle was Sammy Sosa who walked in the 5th inning. Buehrle promptly pick him off first base. He faced the minimum 27 batters, striking out 8 and allowing just the one base on balls.
Buehrle achieved his perfect game against the Tampa Bay Rays on July 23, 2009, also at U.S. Cellular Field and in better weather, a sunny 69 degree afternoon. In the top of the ninth inning, Rays’ leadoff hitter Gabe Kapler hit a deep fly ball to left field-center field, where DeWayne Wise made a spectacular catch, taking a home run away from Kapler and saving the perfect game for Buehrle. Wise was a defensive replacement to start the inning. Buehrle fanned 6 in this contest.
Note: Ironically, both no-hitters were finished in 2:03, typical for a Mark Buehrle start. The final score of the first no-no against the Rangers was 6-0 and the second versus the Rays was 5-0.
No questions about replacing Ventura? Or about the working relationship with Kenny Williams? Or has the Pale Hosers’ owner ever nixed a deal himself?
Puzzling….