The Phillies and Mariners have struck a deal that sends shortstop Jean Segura to Philadelphia along with relievers Juan Nicasio and James Pazos. On the other end of the swap, the Seattle organization will receive veteran first baseman Carlos Santana and young infielder J.P. Crawford.
Money is a major aspect of this deal, but it seems the clubs were able to work things out by swapping contracts rather than paying down portions of any deals. Segura will receive a $1MM bonus for waiving his no-trade clause. It seems the M’s will pay, though that’s not fully clear. Segura will keep his NTC rights moving forward in Philly.
Seattle has pulled off a series of significant moves this winter, in service of what the club hopes will be a relatively quick reboot. Cost savings aren’t the only relevant pursuit, but it’s clearly important. In a way, then, this trade feels like a bit of a surprise at first glance.
After all, Segura is not only a high-quality player, his contract rights are generally appealing. He doesn’t turn 29 until March, and he is controlled through the 2022 season on a contract that will pay him $58MM over those four seasons (including a $1MM buyout of a $17MM club option for 2023). With Nicasio’s $9MM salary for 2019 added in, there’ll be $67MM in total heading to the Philly books.
On the other side, the M’s are taking back $35MM owed to Santana over the next two seasons (including the $500K buyout of his 2021 option, which is priced at $17.5MM). Since the other two players in the deal are not yet eligible for arbitration, the Seattle ledger will be left about $32MM lighter at the end of the day.
Beyond the financial savings, which are significant but nevertheless disappointing given Segura’s performance, the Mariners are adding an intriguing replacement at shortstop. Crawford has been a consensus top-16 prospect in the sport (as per Baseball America and Baseball America) in each of the last three seasons, though his messy, injury-plagued 2018 season has certainly dimmed his stock.
Crawford, the former 16th overall pick, first reached Triple-A in 2016. He scuffled at the plate in his first exposure, but came into his power in the following season and seemed primed for a breakthrough. Unfortunately, forearm and hand injuries intervened, limiting Crawford’s time. It’s notable, too, that he went down on strikes in 26.8% of his plate appearances while walking at a good-but-not-great 9.4% rate. Plate discipline, after all, is his calling card. On the other hand, his .214/.319/.393 slash still worked out to a 96 wRC+ and there’s still surely room to grow. Crawford, after all, will not turn 24 until January.
Even while recognizing the very real value that still lies in the rights to Crawford, it’s hard to escape the sense that this wasn’t a deal the Mariners really loved making. While there was some interest from other quarters in Segura — the Yankees reportedly took a look, while the Padres and Mariners discussed a potential blockbuster that would’ve sent Segura and Mike Leake to San Diego in exchange for Wil Myers — it seems it never reached a boiling point. It’s certainly true, as Jeff Sullivan of Fangraphs wrote tonight, that there was a thin market at shortstop. And some whispers of clubhouse issues (including a scrap with Dee Gordon) probably didn’t help. As Dipoto explained tonight: “If the market were higher, we would have made a higher level trade.”
There’s certainly some value in Santana, too, despite his tepid output in 2018. It was just last winter, after all, that the market made him something of an exception for its newfound dislike of lumbering sluggers. The switch-hitter’s plate discipline remains top-notch, and he not only handles first base well but showed he can give some innings at the hot corner.
If you look at it long enough, you can begin to wonder why it is the Phillies were interested in giving up Santana after adding him only one year back. Surely, the team can see that his .231 batting average on balls in play is likely to rise and that he’s more or less the same player they targeted. In this case, though, GM Matt Klentak and co. were faced with some incongruous roster occupants and a clear mandate to improve.
Last year’s experiments provided information, but perhaps not of the kind the Phils were hoping for. Rhys Hoskins failed to make the transition from first base to the corner outfield, creating a dilemma. Meanwhile, Crawford wasn’t quite ready to become a regular at short; neither was Scott Kingery.
This swap, then, suits a variety of needs in Philadelphia. Finding a reasonable way to move on from Santana was clearly necessary. Hoskins can step back in at first base while leaving a corner outfield spot open for some other impactful hitter who can handle the position defensively.
The addition of Segura, though, was surely the driving force. He has become a highly productive offensive player, with a .308/.353/.449 slash line to go with 41 homers and 75 steals over the last three seasons. While Segura is highly reliant on contact, he’s also quite good at avoiding strikeouts (personal-low 10.9% K rate in 2018) and getting aboard when he puts the ball in play (.320 lifetime BABIP). Perhaps he won’t revisit his high-water power point (twenty long balls and a .181 ISO in 2016), but Segura seems likely to deliver above-average work with the bat for much of the remainder of his deal.
It’s not as if Segura is a stretch to play at shortstop, either. He has mostly graded in range of average over the years, with DRS generally valuing him as a slight plus and UZR shading the other way. Regardless, he can handle the job. Segura hasn’t scored as well for his overall baserunning in recent years, but obviously can still run and should probably be viewed as a positive performer in that regard as well.
Some reports had indicated that just-acquired Mariners right-hander Anthony Swarzak was to be passed along in the swap. Instead, it’s Nicasio, who has a similar salary to that of Swarzak and functions in the same essential capacity in this trade. Actually, the 32-year-old Nicasio looks to be one of the most interesting buy-low relief candidates out there on the heels of a bizarre 2018 campaign. He was tagged for six earned per nine over 42 frames, but also posted a pristine combination of 11.4 K/9 and 1.1 BB/9. Clearly, a .402 BABIP and 58.1% strand rate played a big role in the struggles.
Meanwhile, Pazos could be a cost-effective boon to the Philadelphia relief corps, having pitched to a 3.39 ERA with 9.5 K/9 and 3.4 BB/9 across 103 2/3 innings for the Mariners from 2017-18. He’s not yet arbitration-eligible and can be controlled through the 2022 season. As Ryan Divish of the Seattle Times notes on Twitter, Pazos exhibited some worrisome trends late in the year, with some velocity loss and “mechanical issues.” Still, it’s an easy chance for the Phillies to take on a potentially quality reliever who’ll still earn the league minimum.
For both organizations, then, this was quite a notable swap — and one that could set the stage for further dealing.
On the Phillies’ side, the club has found an answer at short, but perhaps not in the way some anticipated entering the winter. Manny Machado now looks to be a potential target to line up at third base, which isn’t his preferred position, as Klentak has made clear that the club sees Segura as its shortstop. Having made a significant upgrade without adding much salary (and even while resolving the Santana issue), the Phils also now still seem to have ample flexibility to work with in exploring further major acquisitions.
Meanwhile, Mariners GM Jerry Dipoto has now moved three more established players after already shipping out James Paxton, Mike Zunino, Alex Colome, Robinson Cano, and Edwin Diaz in less than four weeks’ time. Mike Leake and Kyle Seager are also being shopped. And perhaps the team’s most recently added veterans shouldn’t be ruled out, either, with Santana joining Jay Bruce and Anthony Swarzak as pieces that could be moved if the M’s see a chance to add talent and/or save further coin. It’ll be most interesting to see whether any further controllable talent — most notably, Mitch Haniger and Marco Gonzales — could be on the move this winter.
The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal reported that a deal was nearing (Twitter link). USA Today’s Bob Nightengale tweeted further detail, as did Rosenthal (Twitter links). Rosenthal (in a tweet) and colleague Jayson Stark (on Twitter) had details on Segura’s no-trade rights.
Photos courtesy of USA Today Sports Images.
Not a M’s fan, but love Jerry. Always keeps it exciting!!!!
I may be one of the few Mariner fans that has liked Dipoto his entire tenure, but I really would have liked him to start this rebuild at the 2017 trade deadline.
I’m with you, I like Jerry too although I think now is appropriate timing as it was worth a last run at the playoffs last season
Braves trade for Haniger next, maybe Wright, Riley, and another player
If it’s Riley, Allard, Wright consider it done.
seems even, wouldnt really hurt ATL too much
I wonder what SD wants for Wil Myers? Think you Mariner folks may need to temper your expectations here … we are talking about a RIGHT FIELDER here – they are not hard to find. Braves have multiple options including the gold glover silver slugger in place last year. I see 2 prospects – a top level and a mid guy – if this is done. Riley won’t be part of it. Only organization who may get him is Miami and even that is doubtful.
They’d want salary relief
THIS is the kind of trade it may take but probably a little more. Haniger is young, controllable and really balurd by the Mariners as he should be.
I just wonder how willing the Braves would be willing to let go of Wright or Soroka. The Mariners may be willing to over look this IF the Braves add TWO top 100 prospects in their place which doesn’t seem much less scary.
Then he doesn’t move. Plenty of control left and our best player. No rush.
This is the most ridiculous offer I’ve seen in my life! Haha!
Haniger needs to go to another AL team. He’s a keeper in my fantasy league.
Braves are actively shopping Soroka in deals afraid of his recent injury issues. I don’t want them to get rid of two of Touki, Soroka, Wright, but definitely one could be had.
No to Riley or Pache
Soroka / Wright
Allard / Fried
Mueller / Wentz
I’d do that trade. Might hurt the braves a little in infield depth, but for Haniger, I think it’s worth it.
Braves aren’t trading that much for a RF, more like a #1 or #2.
You’re not getting Soroka, or Wright. Much less Wright, Riley & Allard for a RF.
Dude Soroka has had ONE injury. Before that he threw far more innings in the minors than most starting pitchers his age. I don’t think that qualifies him as having ” injury issues”. I also haven’t seen anything indicating that the braves are actually shopping him. It is more like a few fans are including his name in fantasy like trade scenarios.
Do not trade Haniger please!
He can also play Center Field. The guy will wear pitchers out! I don’t want him to go to your crummy team anyway! He is the ONLY player we should hold on to!
I’m not disagreeing but what rf’s are out there?
Haniger is 28. Late bloomer w injury issues.
I want both Soroka & Fried to stay.
Offer Wright, Allard, Wentz, and Adam Duvall for Haniger. We offer 2 top 100 prospects, 1 top 15 prospect, & a guy who can be the replacement in LF, for the starting LF for ATL for the next 4 years.
Haniger has only had one significant injury (oblique). The only other injury that had him missing significant time was after getting drilled in the face with a 95mph fastball. That hardly makes him injury prone.
He had 683 PA’s last season, so there’s that as well.
Why not just sign Michael Brantley and keep all your prospects?
Zaneduarte- The FO could be bluffing, trying to create more demand for Hanny but it seems they’re going to keep him and make him “the face of the franchise.” I was happy to read Rosenthal’s article yesterday where the Seattle brass is quoted saying they view him as a top 5 corner OF in the league. I’m with you, please don’t trade him- his work ethic would be an inspiration for Jerry’s kids
I’m not sure dipoto’s early rebuild would’ve netted more pieces. Paxton is coming off his best season as is diaz. Segura too has boosted his stock off a strong year. Of course if he would’ve started this sooner he wouldn’t have added Dee Gordon or Mike Leake. Or any of the other moves for veterans he’s made.
Nelson cruz tho could of been a good trade piece
To be fair, he wasn’t hired to start a rebuild and ownership probably didn’t let up until they realized it would cost considerably more to take another shot.
is this a rebuild? i mean Jerry is tearing it down but the packages coming back don’t seem as rebuild like as kinda half rebuild.
dimitrios in la
And very recently he was explaining it was NOT a rebuild. It clearly is.
As for those who like Jerry, I get it. But he’s rebuilding after having been very uncompetitive annually for a long time. So, what has the team done under his tenure?
The only player he acquired who is years off is Kelenic. These other pieces are MLB ready or nearly MLB ready. I don’t know what adjective you want to use to describe it but it doesn’t look to be a 4-5 year until we’re compeititve rebuild. It looks to be maybe a 2 year “retool” or rebuild whatever you like. But it seems like they could be playoff contenders again by 2021 if things go right. That’s not typically how one of these rebuilds goes.
Stocking up on bad contracts and prospects tell me this is a full rebuild. I don’t understand this one at all.
You are right, but Jay Bruce and Carlos Santana aren’t helping anyone contend at this point.
Hey Dimi! Dipoto has only been there three years. That’s not a long time. They won 89 games with a bunch of under performers.
The Mets did send two top 100 prospects so it seems pretty rebuildish to me.
A long time, Dimitrios? Lol he’s been here barely over three years, two of which were 88+ win seasons and he’s finally getting to do what he wanted with the roster.
I wonder how long before he flips both of those.
But why “stock up” on bad contracts? I would think he’d want to unload them.
I don’t understand why he didn’t just deal Segura for prospects or controllable young mlbers? His contract vs performance indicates the contract isn’t upside down. Segura’s not in his mid 30s. This isn’t the NBA where there’s a mandate about salary matching trades. He’s effectively traded a good player on a reasonable contract for a declining player on a bad contract.
I can’t imagine teams were asking the M’s to eat any of Segura’s contract.
Letsplaytwo- I read an interesting question in a Seattle Mariners article yesterday. If the Mariners were told 3 yrs ago that not only would Jerry fail to make the playoffs but he will initiate a full rebuild after 3 yrs do you think Stanton and Mather would hire Jerry as GM? Don’t think so. Interesting question
I liked Jerry UNTIL now. I’m glad he traded Cano but not st the cost of Diaz. Regardless of what he says, this is a full blown rebuild.
Nope. There’s another M’s fan who has liked Jerrybthe entire time as well right here!
Jerry is an idiot.
You’re an idiot for not recognizing the good Dipoto has done for the Mariners. Getting two top 100 prospects back in his deal with the Mets is more than anyone imagined.
Players from Seattle leaving like rats jumping off a sinking ship.
Seems on paper that two top 100 prospects is a decent return but there’s no guarantee they fulfill their promise. Sad to see Diaz go- not every day do the Ms get an All-Star from their own farm system
The M’s got two top 100 prospects? Big deal. They gave up the best closer in the game, a cheap, young player. How are two top 100 prospects better than that?
They aren’t. Keith Law just taught all the dorks on here to overvalue every prospect ALWAYS.
Martevious- I hate that Diaz left. Have you read Amanda Lane’s of Lookout Landing’s article “Goodbye, Edwin Diaz and 9th Innings of fire?” A beautifully written ode to Eddie D and his special 2018 season.
That’s especially true for this offseason. I can’t wait to see who he trades next.
He’s on a roll. Leake, Gordon, Seagar.
Might as well go ALL in.
I am a Mariners fan. But I do not love Jerry. This fire sale is painful to watch. Not that I disagree with a full rebuild. This is not a reimagining. But what’s his hurry and why is he giving players away pennies for the dollar. With each trade he has looked more desperate, I do not like the return for Cano,Diaz and we got nothing for Segura and relievers. Nothing against who they got but they should have received more than 1 prospect for a 29 yr old all star on a fair contract who bats over 300 3 yrs in a row. And worse yet I have no confidence in the Mariners that they will not rush these prospect and not developed them like they have done in the past knowing Dipoto states he is rebuilding for 2 yrs from now and we have no major league talent. I hope he acquires every rule 5 player to man the majors field for now
Trader Jerry’s trying to make all the moves before the winter meetings.
I love what Jerry is doing but it will be interesting who starts next year. Seems there might be 24 new guys and Felix at this rate
Yeah I think Gonzalez is the other lock to stay as I don’t think they’ll get nearly the Value they want.
dimitrios in la
Well Gonzo seems like he’s got great value over the next two years. Great looking pitcher at little $.
I don’t know about that. Right bow doesn’t seem like the best time to trade Gonzalez. He really doesn’t have anymore value than a high end prospect. If the Mariners are convinced of his talent then maybe they should wait until the deadline to trade him next year. Imagine, for example, if the Mariners had traded Haniger BEFORE the 2018 season. He is a lot more valuable now.
Cubs should offer the Phillies Addison Russell .!
Gonna take more than that
The Phillies want nothing to do with that human garbage.
@bucketbrew35 – interesting theory considering the Phillies didn’t even punish Brett Myers when he punched his wife and then proceeded to give him an extension the following year.
Not to downplay domestic violence here (for the record I believe that it is inexcusable and, in most cases, unforgivable) but 10+ years ago, it wasn’t as big of a PR issue. Additionally, the Russell case is a truly disgusting instance of domestic violence that is incomparable with most other situations involving to professional athletes.
Sounds like you simply want to be politically correct in your “statement”
Why is Russells situation “incomparable” with other domestic situations involving professional athletes?
They didn’t give him an extension. He went to arbitration in each of the following three years and the Phillies settled. When he became a free agent they let him go.
@Coast1 = you’re 100% wrong. Myers’s domestic violence incident happened in 2006.
“On February 1, 2007, the Phillies announced they had agreed to a three-year, $25.75 million contract extension with Myers.”
@Daryl125 – wanna exp[ain how Russell’s situation is not comparable to other professional athletes, especially one that punched his wife in the face in public?
And I don’t give a flying sh*t if it’s as big of a PR issue as it once was…fact remains, Phillies did not punish him (or even bench him), and then rewarded him by extending him for 3 more seasons.
RytheStunner – you are 90% correct, except your last statement is idiotic. I watched my dad abuse my mom in the 80s. Was is right? No. But nothing was done. Why? Different times. I hate it. But 2006 is not 2018. Also, new leadership.
So stop arguing about it while you have an argument and credibility. If you keep going, even I, as a supporter of what you are saying, will think you are just a hater of the Phillies and using old news.
Most teams have already proven they don’t actually care and MLB’s big ol dv policy is nothing more than PR lip service. They don’t really care, they just don’t want the bad pr but will turn around and hand huge contracts to or trade for these dudes the moment they think they can get away with it.
I will agree tho, it was even more foul a decade+ ago, when you could win “comeback player of the year” for having a halfway decent season after serving time for a dv conviction.
Hysterical you think suggesting because there are other evil domestic abusers out there it somehow makes him any better. News flash — they’re ALL scumbags and any team that knowingly signs a single one is complicit. Which means most teams.
The biggest difference with Russel and the new cases is the amount of evidence and first hand testimony. People are seeing it now.
It used to be behind closed doors, now it’s on video. Always been wrong, but people are now seeing it.
@hzt502 – where on Earth did I say or suggest that? The original statement that the Phillies wouldn’t want to sign a domestic abuser on their team. I gave past evidence that the statement is false.
@HalosHeavenJJ – there were eyewitnesses who saw Brett Myers punch his wife in the face since he did it in public. It wasn’t “behind closed doors”. There was plenty of evidence and first-hand testimony from actual eye witnesses.
Phillies Phan – I’m a Cubs fan, why would I have any reason to hate the Phillies? They’re not even a division rival.. Idiot said :Phillies wouldn’t want a domestic abuser on their team, I gave evidence proving otherwise.
Also, my post got 12 upvotes vs 1 downvote, so I’m clearly not alone in my thoughts.
Why would you think an employer should punish someone for an altercation at their home/away from the field? It’s idiotic things like this that led to the Reds getting nothing from Chapman, and the Yankees (where the story somehow died in the biggest market) and they received great prospects back.
You’re sexist? Why would hitting a woman be wrong in this day and age other than, it’s wrong to hit people or it’s wrong to hit someone smaller than you?
RytheStunner – I don’t care how many upvotes you got. If you want to be technical the post I responded to got 1 upvote and 1 downvote. Your other post, I agreed with.
Im a huge Phils fan and ,even then,i didnt understand WHY we didnt punish,release him..yes,he helped us alott when we were winning…
And i had liked him before. But times change. I NEVER felt good rooting 4 him.. have never seen him back 4 a reunion,tho. Im glad 4 that. I believe in forgiveness tho. JUST..he had,has no place in the sport.
danlcat – I also think he should have been punished. Unfortunately at the time, most MLB teams did not take it as seriously. I can think of 4 other players that were accused or arrested and the result was the same as Myers. My problem was not in what was said in the above originally, but the rationale as it went on by RytheStunner became circular. Yeah, Myers was fun to watch, but I did not like him either.
Why would the Cubs do that? What would the Cubs do with Crawford? Why would the Phillies want Russell over Segura?
Mets fan I see
For Crawford and Medina
That would make sense IMO
No way it takes that much. Crawford might get it done by himself. Maybe it costs a lower level prospect but not medina
At this point Crawford is a change of scenery candidate (albeit with upside), not someone who would headline a deal or bring in someone like Segura by himself
Crawford didn’t play well in the high minors either.
The change of scenery he needs is to High-A ball.
Well I guess I was wrong
You think you get a proven and reasonably priced ML shortstop that can hit for a prospect that has done nothing in the last two years? You are in for a surprise. It may involve Crawford but it will take another top prospect and a solid B piece too.
Except now that the trade has been announced, it didn’t take anything extra… dumbass.
Well…they also threw in the horrible contract of Santana. So at least there’s that.
Trade hasn’t even demonically announced. No need to call names. Especially when you’re the one that’ll end up looking foolish in the end.
Lol how’d that ridiculous prediction work out for you?
Crawford has bust written all over him. Its gonna cost more than Crawford. Heck why do you think the Phillies are trying to dump him in the first place.
Segura had bust written all over him, the first time he was traded.
The first time he was traded was because his first child had died, and he needed a new change of scenery.
YEP..COST MORE. WE GOT TO DUMP SANTANAS SALARY AND GOT A DECENT,LEFTYRELIEVER TOO.AMAZING JOB BY KLENTAK.MARINERS GOT HOSED
December 3, 2018
YEP..COST MORE. WE GOT TO DUMP SANTANAS SALARY AND GOT A LEFTY RELIEVER,YOUNG,GOOD TOO
Cubs should offer the Phillies Addison Russell ..!
Jerry is a complete idiot minus the Cano trade
Full rebuild. Should of happened last year
If the return is Crawford and a minor league reliever, then yes Jerry is a moron again. After the Cano trade he sorta redeemed himself – but still needs to win about 12 more trades to break even.
Haniger should get a haul. Unless he’s traded with Seager
Haniger makes the most sense to Atlanta. They have a billion good prospects (a haul wouldn’t even put in a dent) and a hole in RF.
That seems like a win win
ATL covets Haniger and would give up some great pieces for him.
trader jerry stormin’ thru the NL EAST with a vengeance
Not doubting you at all. Just asking where you heard this because I’m a Braves fan that’s coveted Haniger and would absolutely love for that to happen
This is what Jerry’s good at. Finding teams wanting to deal and getting it done. The NL East appears to be his primary target.
“…but still needs to win about 12 more trades to break even.”
How do you figure? The Segura/Haniger trade was excellent. The Narvaez trade also made a ton of sense. The Paxton and Zunino deals were not fleecings, but based on a logical process.
Beyond that, I would argue that his trades have been more positive than negative. I’m wondering why you think he’s been bad.
Jerrytek- I’d also include a few trades that went under the radar: James Pazos from the Yankees, Ben Gamel also from NYY, the Nick Vincent trade 3 yrs ago brought a lot of value in his first two seasons, and I’m not ready to give up on Healy- we only gave up a middle RP for him (who was actually demoted to AAA last yr.) I also love the Shawn Armstrong deal who came up in Sept and in one month according to baseball reference generated 0.6 WAR.
The Cano trade was 12 wins by itself.
Give me either Haseley and Medina or Bohm and Romero.
Aint happening, boss
So one top 100 prospect and a top 150 prospect for an all star shortstop is to much? I think the Phillie fans are the ones overvaluing their prospects.
No doubt..these Phillies guys are acting like we ar trying to move a non producing player with a bad contract. It’s laughable really. I love how the media keeps adding that these are cost cutting moves yet they are bringing on quality prospects which is the real goal. Sure, they wanted to move some of the Cano deal, but they get value for Diaz, Paxton, and Zunino. Segura will bring back talent or he will stay
@24 as a Phils fan, I think you’re pretty close here…its gonna take something that makes us go “ouch” in order to land Segura; it won’t just be a spare part. BUT, that being said, I almost think one of Crawford/Hernandez/Kingery would have to be in the deal as Segura just adds to an already-crowded infield…unless Phils are planning on acquiring a pitcher with some of the excess infield depth…
Exactly! Segura is a pure baseball trade. A player with value. Phillies pony up or they will not have him.
60 mil left on the deal. The more money the Phillies eat—as is with all deals—-the less return you will get. If Santana is not included in the deal or significant money sent back it will only be lottery ticket type prospects you have never heard of in return.
$15 million per year for a All-star caliber SS, is a about as team friendly a deal you will find in MLB. Philadelphia should and will need to send another of their top 15 prospects for Segura.
Why would you think an employer should punish someone for an altercation at their home/away from the field? It’s idiotic things like this that led to the Reds getting nothing from Chapman, and the Yankees (where the story somehow died in the biggest market) and they received great prospects back.
Just back here to chuckle at all the mariners fan boys who thought Segura was bringing back 2 top 100 prospects. Please do your homework next time. Deal Final. Santana and Crawford- For Segura and cost controlled RP, and a salary dump RP.
More like Seattle undervalues their talent.
More like, no one has looked at baseball trades that was commenting the last 5 years. Shocked there wasn’t a C level prospect or two? Sure. They were never touching anyone in the Phillies top 10.
Not one M’s fan stated they should get 2 top 100 prospects(BTW Phili only has 3, didn’t realize your farm is nearly as bad as Seattle’s), but someone like Suarez or Moniak seemed reasonable. M’s got hosed in this deal.
Mpatteson- Hindsight is 20/20. (Unfortunately) I’m a Mariners fan, I feel Seattle got ‘ripped off’ in the Segura trade but I’m curious, if JP Crawford fulfills his promise and grows into the player projected in your mind how does that affect the trade? I haven’t seen 1 AB from Crawford. I read he was injured last year but on paper it doesn’t feel like we’re getting much back from the young SS
I was hoping Segura to the yanks
I don’t know about Segura. The fact that he is a quality player yet he seems to get traded from every team he plays for after a year or two. Philadelphia will be his 5th (I think) team he has played for. Seems like a SS with a bat like his would be a player you would want to hold on to. I have a hunch that he is another Milton Bradley type of player. Very talented but with a bad attitude and hard to coach. I could be (and probably am) wrong but there has to be a reason he gets traded so much. Glad he isn’t going to the Yankees.
Or maybe he’s traded because he has value and is on non competitive teams? First trade was for Grienke. Second trade was for a need before he was really established. Third trade was for Ketel Marte and Taijun Walker, Marte was younger coming off a better season and Walker was a high upside pitcher. Now again because he has value on a team that’s not competing
Usually you’d say that, but when you get reports of locker room unrest then there’s something that’s clearly there. Especially with a personality that grinds on other guys over 162. Probably a personality that’s tolerated when you’re winning. He’s clearly talented and has value. No one is questioning that, but might be a gamble dependent on what you have in the locker room.
Thecoffinnail- only players and managers were in the clubhouse during the Dee Gordon-Segura altercation, we don’t know the severity of the argument. I’ll say this- we only started to read about Segura’s bad attitude after the Ms took a nosedive when it was clear their dream of making the playoffs was shattered. 2018 was an extremely painful season for fans and players alike. If the Mariners continued their 1st half success and made the WC Segura’s ‘attitude’ is a complete non-issue. There were long stretches of this season where Segura carried our team he is absolutely no “Milton Bradley type player” Keep in mind, the Ms received Milton Bradley in an infamous trade earlier this decade. Segura is no MB. Philly is lucky to have him.
With all this salary relief, Mariners could end up with Harper and Machado if they wanted.
Jerry is saving his allowance for arenado
I was gonna say Harper to the M’s after all these salary dumps.
This guy is crazy enough to pull it off
But Harper might not be.
No DiPoto is not pulling off landing Harper. No chance.
Maybe the Mariners will take Santana’s contract to give the Phillies more money for free agency. I’ve read of Santana and Crawford being discussed, but as a Mariners fan I’m hoping for Bohm along with something less shiny like Moniak.
Not happening unless we get more prospect haul.
Exactly. M’s would happily purchase more prospects by taking Santana’s albatros contract.
I think Jerry wants closer-to-MLB-ready talent than Bohm & Moniak are, and the Phils won’t include TWO of their first-round picks of the last 3 years.
One is largely considered a bust (isn’t he out of their top 10?). The other would be the prize for Segura (and would be blocked should the Phillies sign Machado). Also I’m not sure if Dipoto wants talent that’s close necessarily – Kelenic is proof of that.
Yeah because Kelenic is super close to MLB ready.
Wow this changes Machado’s market right? Unless he wants to play 3B in Philly?
Machado’s no hussle is gonna cost him.
It really does not change his market. For the money Machado wants he will play either position
I think there is a way Machado could still play SS if it were a sticking point. Segura has been a 2B in the past and they could use a kingery/Hernandez platoon in 3B and/ or have one of them functioning as a super sub. It wouldn’t be the conventional move but the Phillies are in an odd but perhaps fortunate scenario where they have multiple infielders who have played multiple slots.
Can someone tell me what Moniak was projected to be when the Phillies drafted him?
Thanks for the link.
a baseball player
What goes on in your head to make you make a comment like that?
What goes on in your head to make you make a comment like that?
I’ll tell you, I thought:
“Really, I just asked a simple question and he has to make a smart ass reply like that.”
I believe CF with .300 average potential.
Moniak’s top projected comp was a Steve Finely type of player when they drafted him.
If I remember correctly he was compared to Jim Edmonds rather frequently.
So nobody wants Gordon?
With the 2b market and his last year that’s probably a tougher move. The market wasn’t hot on him last year. He was basically a salary dump, traded for a backend SP and a lotto ticket. I’d venture after another below average offensive year he’s not really in demand at this point.
I’m not saying trade too prospects for him, but he is still somewhat serviceable. Cubs, brewers dodgers and a few other teams can use a decent second baseman that can lead off.
Sixto Sanchez,Santana and so on for Segura,Leake,Colume?
The Mariners traded Alex Colome to the White Sox a few days ago.
Coleme was traded on Friday.
Colume was already traded
Colome already gone to the White Sox
stan lee the manly
Colome was already…darn, I’ll just go beat this dead horse instead
Who got traded? Was it Colome?
Yes Colome was traded to the White Sox last week. Old news.
Yes I knew that after posted.
Colom is aready trad
Hilarious seeing Alex Colome’s name spelled 4 different ways in the same thread.
Gollum was traded ?
Matt you are not too on top of things. You do not even know the M’s roster but you want to make proposed trades
… and we are still a week from the Winter Meetings.
I was thinking Crawford, Irvin/Medina, and Edgar Garcia. But really, it’ll be Crawford, one of those starters in AAA/AA, and a young reliever. No point in trying to get too specific.
The NL East is quickly becoming the best division in baseball. Mets, Phillies, and Braves are making all the headlines so far. I’m sure the Nationals will make moves as well. It should be a very good race next year, minus the Marlins of course.
I’m not a fan of any NL east team, but I’m all in favor of a shift of talent from the AL to the NL. Seems like the AL has been superior to the NL for too long
AL still has the best player in baseball and we still do not know if Harper is going to the A.L.. We also do not know where Machado is landing. NL east did not just become the best division in baseball because of 2 moves when it is still early in the offseason. A small improvement from any of the AL team will overwhelm any of these moves.
Looks ever more certain that both Harper and Machado are going to be suited up by Hal Steinbrenner.
When you consider the spending power of WSH/PHI, the statement has legs. ATL also had some financial room still, but no where near the prospect capital they have doing something big. And NYM with a new GM just may convince ownership to dig deeper (than Cano) for the offense they need.
NL East should be top in NL
Did you not consider spending power of any AL team when making this comment? Angels, Boston, Yanks, Rays(Might not be high but high enough to make an impact) and Oakland? I still do not understand why people are making comments about the scale and effects of Leagues so early on. With only a closer and a SS moving to the division. I don’t count Cano because he’s super old and dwindling
Are you really talking about the spending power of OAK and TB???
My comments on the NL East are based on the early moves by NYM, WSH, ATL, PHI and their ability to make more moves with both financial resources and prospect capital. I don’t doubt that BOS, NYY, LAD have more resources at their disposal, but neither has done anything early on in the offseason.
reading comprehension is key. But, I’ll give you 28.5 points for throwing Oakland & Tampa in on the conversation of spending ability.
The NL east is quickly becoming the NL Mariners.
Jay Bruce, Carlos Santana, Antony Swarzak…SEA is becoming the dumping grounds for the NL East. Want Julio Teheran for a bag of Pike Place’s finest?
“Mets, Phillies, and Braves are making all the headlines so far. I’m sure the Nationals will make moves as well.”
Huh? Did I miss something? Did the Braves do something more than sign McCann? The Nats signed Suzuki and pulled off a trade for Yan Gomes. I’d edit your post to: the Mets, Phillies, and Nats making the headlines, while we wait on the Braves to do something major, besides signing a 35 year-old back-up catcher with questionable receiving skills..
Well they did sign the former AL MVP.
think before posting dude
or do your research
Looks like you picked the wrong day to give up sniffing glue.
Lol. Lol. Lol
Plz insert foot into mouth !!
Machado isn’t going to like this. I’m betting Philly is one of only a handful of teams that is interested in paying Machado big money. I wouldn’t be surprised if Philly has already offered Machado a deal. If they have, Philly may be flaunting this Segura deal in order to force Machado’s hand. I’m sure he doesnt want a major player to bail on him, and I’m certain he wont mind playing 3rd base for $300mil
Honestly if i’m Philly i’m trying Harper and starting pitcher (preferably a lefty), getting Segura and a reliever in a trade and shedding Santana’s contract, maybe trade an OF like Herrera or Altherr (way less value than Odubal) who is under control and Hernandez to clear playing room for Quinn and Kingery
Yeah, if they get rid of Santana for Segura, they move Hoskins to first base and have an open spot in left field. If that’s not a perfect fit (for Harper), I don’t know what is…
Or he will…maybe see the potential power house of him and argues to be a contender with everyone else involved?
Philly is trading for Segura to improve their team not force anyones hand. Third base is still open for Machado. Philly is not gonna sit out on Segura while Segura is on the market.
Did Dipoto accidentally schedule a trip during winter meetings or something?
Did I just read “top Phillies prospect JP Crawford”?
It’s not a strong system. Shocking after all those years of tanking.
If all those years of tanking leads to Rhys Hoskins and Aaron Nola, then I’d take it.
Rhys Hoskins was drafted in the fifth round and he has yet to show he can hold down a defensive position.
Look at the position talent on the Cubs and Astros and then look at the Phillies. Those young guys on the Cubs and Astros have a ring on their finger too.
No just no.. Nola was a middle pick and a relatively safe pick. They completely missed on a #1 pick and #10 pick. Hoskins is nice but was not acquired by their tanking
They didn’t tank. It’s called a rebuild. I’m glad the 76ers made the word “tanking” fashionable these days
Not a strong system?? Their farm was ranked top 5 before the season started. Hoskins has arrived and I’m not ready to call Scott Kingery a bust. Plenty of talent in their system
They’ve waited for this offseason and their primed to a trike
Yea you read it right. I was confused too.
Phillies haven’t been able to exit their rebuild and they are already trading the farm, a system that has consistently ranked below the Dodgers and Astros throughout the Phillies tanking and both LA and Houston continue to rate higher than the Phillies.
The Phillies farm ranked higher than both the Astros and dodgers coming into this past season
No they don’t. The Phillies are behind both the Dodgers and Astros and before the Yankees graduated Andujar and Torres the Yankees were well ahead of the Phillies as well and the Yankees have not had a losing season in over twenty years. You must have read ratings on a Philly blog.
MLB pipeline is a Phillies blog? They had Phillies at 5 in March with Yanks at 6 Dodgers at 10 and Stros outside the top 10
That was from the year before. A month later that all changed.
You have to be aware of when those lists were constructed. A prospect in the Top 20 may have taken a dive and when the new list goes up he’s down in the 60’s. Other prospects and systems will rise.
Crawford is no longer viewed as the top of the Top 100 list guys he once was. When the Phillies traded Hunter Pence for Tommy Joseph, Joseph was listed on the Top 100 charts. A couple months later when updated he was gone from every one of them.
@ScottRolen…..jbs32 is correct….here is the pre-2018 top 10 https://www.mlb.com/news/top-10-farm-systems-ranking-by-mlb-pipeline/c-267360666 . Once the “graduated JP and Kingery the Phillies did drop. BTW….Here is Crawford’s rankings the past few years, so you are wrong on that as well….kudos
Pre-2016 – #6
Pre-2017 – #12
Pre-2018 – #16
Pre-2016 – #5
Pre-2017 – #7
Pre-2018 – #37
Pre-2016 – #4
Pre-2017 – #4
Pre-2018 – #14
Just continuing to say “tanking” doesn’t make it real. Phillies were anti-tanking, holding onto Howard, Utley, Rollins, etc. 2-3 years too long. Go sniff your own farts somewhere else.
Blowing it up in Seattle. You guys think they’ll try to trade Jay Bruce? I think so. also what about old man King Felix? I know he’s not what he was and hasn’t been for a couple years now but he can help a contending team I think. How do Mariner fans feel about this? I feel like it was much needed honestly and I’m a big fan of their GM, I think he will get it right there in Seattle.
As a M’s fan, I really like what Jerry is doing. Sad to see some of these guys go, but I’m looking forward to the players we are getting. We were only getting older and didn’t have a farm system so it is definitely the right move to make (argument could be made to have done it sooner, but I respect him trying to make the most of the players he had and compete). As for Felix, Jerry will try to trade him, but unless he goes to a team that will compete, I think Felix has earned the right to finish his contract in Seattle. He has done too much for the city to just get thrown away. I personally hope he gets a chance to go the the postseason, but I’m not sure a team like that would take him.
I love this and I believe it to be the beginning of our real rebuild. In 3/4 years we could be the next team to beat honestly.
The process of getting top prospects can be exciting but the next team to beat? Simmer down.. I’m an Ms fan and I’ve watched this organization fail at developing young players yr after yr. Who says this project will be any different?
This is the guy the Mets should have got.
.300+hitter, 20SB, last 3 years.
sounds like Mcneil
Bingo. The Mets traded for the wrong guy
In case you haven’t figured it out yet, the Mets-Mariners trade was not about Cano. It was about Diaz. And the Phils aren’t getting an elite closer in this deal, just a BA-heavy middle infielder.
Segura’s more than empty BA. He’s no Torreyes. 41 HR in the past 3 years plus above average defense and baserunning. Twice the value of Diaz (albeit maybe not in the playoffs).
And throw in 20+ SB’s – the dude is a stud and I’m pissed we got a roll of duct tape and a tin of cashews in return for an All-Star SS and two good RPs
“The two teams have agreed to the trade “in principle,” That escalated quickly.
Give us Crawford, Moniak, and 1-2 10-20 prospects. Then im happy as a mariners fan
Hmm, how does Segura and Dunn for Díaz sound? Of course if I’m joking.
They aren’t getting that much back
The Mariners expect to be good in 2021/2022 with someone like JO Crawford af short? The guy hits .214! Segura hits around .300! Segura is an all-star! Crawford is a nobody who hits .214! .214! How do you even keep a job in MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL hitting .214? I don’t understand the Mariners moves this offseason. We’re giving up talent for people who don’t know how to play baseball. It doesn’t make any sense. Who do the Phillies even have that’s any good? Mean, the Phillies suck! Nothing good has ever come out of their organzation. Horrible trade for the Mariners, and the Mariners will go from a team that could have contended in 2019, to a team that will be one of the worst teams in baseball in 2019. Ichiro will be our right fielder for the games in Japan, and we’ll probably make Felix our ace again, instead of not allowing either Felix or Ichiro to never play on a baseball field of any sort ever again. They suck. But the Mariners don’t care about winning-they just want fans money to wipe their asses with. JP Crawford…what a joke.OMG, it’s so sad too. We have a guy who can’t even play baseball. What a rip-off…
Haniger for Allard, wright, riley could set up M’s
Erie4312….That is way too much for the Braves to give up! Wright or Riley should only be traded if they are getting a front line starting pitcher! There are other OF that makes sense for less…Brantley, McCutchen, Franmil Reyes, Hunter Renfroe, Markakis, and Domingo Santana to name a few. The Braves will not give up either Wright or Riley for an outfielder.
t hasn’t happened yet
makes sense for both
Last time the mariners won a world series? I’ll wait…
You are a casual, misinformed and oblivious Mariners fan. Like 95% of our fan base.
Agreed! I’m a die hard Ms fan too
Phillies fans, please help us Ms fans out that have never seen Crawford play. Based on his major &minor league stats in last 3 years, looks like he will never even be a .240 hitter. Is there any hope he can be an average major league contributor or are the Ms getting ripped off again?
Maybe there are solid minor leaguers attached, but I’m not holding my breath based on Jerrys typical light returns.
He’s shown flashes, but he also has been injured for a good chunk of his MLB career so far. If he can put together a full season expect .270, 10 HR, high OBP
You’re crazy. Dipoto has done well and will end up saving 70million this year before spending it right back in free agency. He’ll then trade those two or three free agents, veterans (Leake, Gonzalez etc), and another player or two who turn the corner. He’s in an inviable position because of his trades.
He was rushed through the system with minimal results. He does have a chance to eventually hit .270-.280 if he can ever stay healthy and continue to be disciplined by seeing a lot of pitches. Plays below to average defense. Unless you are getting a decent prospect in return, you got fleeced on this a bit.
Thank you very much (and those also with JP input)
That’s the first time I’ve read he plays below to average defense. Everything I’ve seen makes it sound like defense is his calling card. Last year MLB.com wrote:
“Crawford also continues to display outstanding defensive skills at short. Even though he has just average speed, he has tremendous range, footwork and hands to go along with a plus arm.“
Fangraphs is high on his defense as well.
I haven’t actually seen enough of him to make a legit judgement, but based on everything I’ve read over the last couple years, he seems like a talented kid that just hasn’t been able to put it all together. In my view, he’s more of a buy low/change of scenery type guy than “top prospect” at this point. If he’s the headliner, I’d say the Phillies did well.
He was Gold Glove caliber in the minors. They called him to play 3B, a position he hadn’t played, and he was dazzling in 2017. This year he was awful. Like not the same guy. I have no idea why. I can’t see why he won’t turn it around and be the player he was before this season.
I stand by the below to average defense. He was solid in the minors (until AAA) and was making your typical young player errors. But he was always much younger than everyone at each level so that was always his excuse. Last year you can blame his elbow issues as the reason but he’s still been taking steps backwards in that area for sure.
As a non Phillies fan (and non Mariners too) I definitely feel Crawford has the upside to be an above average two way SS. He has exhibited great OBP skills throughout his professional career with modest power. His defense was below expectations last season but it isn’t uncommon for young players to struggle in their first full season. I feel that he was rushed through the upper minors more quickly than he really needed and that hurt him because he never had much opportunity to learn how to adjust.
I think that Crawford will be fine in the long haul. The Phillies are just selling low on him because they are in a win now mindset.
I would expect at least something more going back to Seattle besides Crawford and Santana though.
Crawford is a player who has struggled initially at a new level. He was better at Lakewood in 2014 than 2013, better at Clearwater in 2015 than 2014, better at Reading in 2016 than 2015, and better at Lehigh Valley in 2017 than 2016. This probably isn’t a shock since he was on of the youngest players at each level.
His minor league stats aren’t all that different than Francisco Lindor.
He’s likely a guy who needs some work. before succeeding. He only has 187 MLB at bats. And that’s his offense. His defense is his strength.
I’m not disagreeing with you, just pointing out what I’ve seen/read from pretty much everywhere. Like I said, I haven’t seen enough of him to make my own judgement, but I do think he’s a pretty weak centerpiece – even weaker if his defense is as bad as you say.
You’re wrong, John Manuel of minor league Ball has called him a “devalued prospect”
Baseball America had Crawford ranked in the top 100 at #12 then his ranking fell to #92, this year he fell off completely. And according to Manuel “he wasn’t even in his top 200.”
Crawford just didn’t develop, for a guy who was once ranked as the best prospect among Lindor, Rosario, and crawford, JP just never got any better especially on defense
John Manuel works for the Twins.
In July and August of 2016 he hit 12 home runs in 215 AAA at bats. It looked like he finally figured it out. That’s the player they might see.
Okay, here’s what I’ve seen..lots of upside and was a top prospect… he has the talent, but for what ever reason (maybe coaching) has not produced..also, we were told he was a plus fielder, but we never saw that either..who knows, he might wake up and be what he was projected to be, in which case, the M’s win..
Phillies fans going “Yea! Only Crawford for Segura!”
Then they refresh the page and see Sixto Sanchez and Mickey Moniak also going to Seattle.
Scott, you really need to get over your hate for Philly…
I still believe the M’s can compete for a wildcard spot next season. Obviously the Red Sox and Yankees will finish #1 and #2, unless something wild happens. But the Rays, Mariners, Twins, Angels, and A’s look like the only other teams competing for the second wild card, all other teams are in complete rebuild. And given the Angels injury history, and the inconsistency of Oakland and Minnesota, Seattle definitely has a chance no matter who else they trade. Dipoto is adding prospects but also adding guys who can help out the major league team. Dipoto, in my opinion, is doing a great job in Seattle. Unlike in Anaheim, although it is rumored that it was morenos fault
I don’t think a lineup of Smith, Crawford, Haniger, Bruce, Seager, Narvaez, Healy, Gamel and Gordon is terrible. It’s not nearly good enough to compete for a wild card, and it’s more than likely 1/3 of that lineup is gone by opening day.
Now, I do think the rotation could sneak up on some people.
that’s assuming haniger and seager aren’t dealt. I wouldn’t assume that
The Mariners are losing 80+ games next year. I expect haniger and Gonzalez to be only top 10 players left from last year. And haniger and Gonzalez are gone the minute someone calls with a deal to give up the farm. This is a 100% teardown. They’re going to sign a few guys to 1-2 year bounce back deals. If they do they’ll be gone by the deadline. A 85 win season is a worst case scenario. Best case? They have the worst record in baseball and get a number 1 pick.
the mariners now are a joke……plus more trades coming..they lose 90 games,…for the next 2 years for sure maybe more…,,check back on the Ms in 2021…sorry fans … jerry is trying to do a fire sale in record time……i do think he robbed the mets……
Gummy wormsand Acuna signed jersey is legit deal for Haniger (thumbs up)
Agree, thats why he said team was undergoing a “re-imagining” not rebuild.
In Bruce and Santana they add big boy bats to OF/1B/DH
They’re down a closer, but replaced Paxton at SP2 with a bunch of SPs that greatly improve 4-6.
The guaranteed outs in lineup are almost all gone now
The mariners are not better in 2019 than they were in 2018. Paxton’s 2019 version is better than Sheffield in 2019. Segura is an upgrade to Crawford for 2019. And diaz and Colome will not be replaced. They cannot be replaced internally. Have you really upgraded the back end of your rotation? You have Erik Swanson as an option now. That’s it. That’s all you added that’s ready for this year. Robbie cano? He’s a productive 2B. Much better than Dee Gordon. This team isn’t better in 2019 but that doesn’t mean that these moves weren’t good for the long term.
DH? Ummmm, we’re talking the NL
I’m wondering if this isn’t all a big marketing ploy… When they call down to the bullpen a giant mascot shaped like a Tums bottle comes running out and two Mariners hands start shooting Tums into the upper stands while Ushers hand out rolls of them to the 50 people in the lower section of the stadium…
I just hope this deal gets rid of Hernandez, so we don’t have to awkwardly watch his “King’s Court” turn into 5 guys in kids size shirts with their bellies hanging out drinking beer and screaming where is my turkey leg?!?!That was
I would like Haniger in Oakland, he will round off our Outfield with Piscotty and Laureano and will save money towards bringing Lowrie back.
This pretty much takes Philly out of the Machado race; if it’s between playing 3B for the Yankees or Phillies, and the contract offers are similiar, who do you think he’s picking?
The Yankees have a third baseman, so…
Is it crazy to see them swapping Bruce and Santana? It would allow Hoskins back to first and match salary
It could be segura and bruce for santana crawford and other prospects
Why are the Mariners trading their entire roster away
because jerry said so
Because their farm was crap. And they didn’t have enough pieces to win as it was. Paying most of your money to cano, Seager, and felix is not a recipe to win.
Braves trade signed freeman and Acuna jersey plus gummy worms plus Teheran for Haniger
Teheran holds a SP spot during rebuild
I’m glad I’m not a Mariners fan, it’s hard enough being a Raiders fan…
lol all your trades cause a team to suddenly do very good which reduces value on 1st round picks
This is a win for the phillies , Now go sign Harper or Brantley. Just say no to Machado unless he proves he will hustle.
Averaging 37 home runs the last 4 years with a total WAR of 30. Yes! Manny Machado does not hustle!!
Wow. Since making his MLB debut in 2012, Jean Segura has now been traded four times.
Hope Kapler and the Phillies can help him mature. He’s one hell of a talent.
I didn’t like it when the angels traded him for greinke
Yeah, in hindsight that one didn’t play out well for the Halos. It’s too bad too, because I like the Angels (I’m only a fan of the Dodgers, however) and I like Greinke.
I would of been ok with it if they kept him, I think they would of had a deal in place, they made room for him , got rid of haren & santana but they signed hamilton instead.
Yeah that was another tough blow. The Angels have had just awfully bad luck with injuries and underperformance by overpaid players.
There’s a lot to dream on, though. Trout, Ohtani, Simmons, et al. are some nice pieces to build on. Or build with.
Made 2 teams in the NL East better May as well continue the trend and hook up my Braves with Hanigar. You can have Riley, Soroka & Wentz
Riley, allard, and Wright
Lol. That overpay ain’t happening.
If Haniger is dealt, Seager’s probably going with him.
Soroka is from Canada not far from Washington I think that could catch their attention a bit.
lol steelers tooka big l just now
Yeah I saw embarrassing last 2 weeks made me sick
Phils writers saying Machado is still their target. Segura + Machado.
I would rather have Harper or Brantley
Plus I like Wright the best outta all the young pitchers but if it takes him to move the needle I would be all for it. May switch Pache with Riley though. But either way if the M’s lookin for a strong rebuild they need to get at the Braves we got the best prospects in the game
AA make it happen. Even take Swarzack contract back to take some money
we need Pache so we dont have to pay inciarte, we have camargo already
We got Waters and Acuna can move over to CF but Inciarte is already signed long term team friendly deal
When Inciarte wants money in three or 4 years we can replace him with pache
Pache and/or Waters should be ready a lot sooner than that – and Acuna could take over CF right now. Yes, Inciarte’s contract is great, but he’ll be 31-32 in another 3-4 years, way past his expiration date that is already showing him slowing down in the SB department. They didn’t give Simba nearly as long to show offense, and he is the best defensive player in MLB consistently. I think AA is just waiting for the right deal. Would be great if we include in a deal to CLE for Kluber or Bauer.
In that dream scenario, they could deal for Haniger and and possibly re-sign Markakis, slotting Acuna in CF. Not sure how much money would available to upgrade from Markakis, but having him back in the OF would be nice, though I’d consider keeping Haniger in RF and moving Kakes to LF with Acuna in CF. A lot of moving parts, so of course this won’t happen – even if we had the prospect capital to pull off a Kluber/Bauer trade and Haniger acquisition.
Wright and Rikey should only be moved for a front line starter. I like Haniger but not for even 1 of those 2.
I gotta know what they are giving up… can’t just be Crawford. It can’t be that easy.
WHO ELSE WHO ELSE …. come on, this is killing me
Jean Segura is a SS where is Machado going obviously not Philadelphia but now Bryce can sign there…so next mystery where does Machodo sign and go
Segura trade has very little impact on the Phils pursuit of Machado… yea, MM prefers to play SS but for the 350million dollars he’ll sign for, I’m sure he would be perfectly fine playing 3B. This could actually increase their chances of signing Machado as he now sees a slightly better team around him and more of a commitment to winning now… I’m sure Philly probably isn’t Manny’s first choice (he loves NYY), but if the Yanks don’t offer him anywhere near the Phillies offer, I bet he goes to PHL. Just because the Yanks have the money to do so doesn’t mean they’ll go all in for Machado; they know Arenado comes up as a FA only 1 year from now…
Yeah and the Yankees know Machado is way better than Arenado.
I don’t know if this is a possibility but Kingery and Hernandez have both played some 3B and segura has played a whole year at 2nd. I certainly don’t believe that’d be the best defensive alignment in Philadelphia but there is a plausible way to let MM play SS.
The plausible way is to pay Machado.
Machado and Harper will play for any team in MLB at any position other than catcher provided that said team pays them what they are looking for.
They are both unsigned because no team has put the money in front of them.
Harper and Machado are still unsigned because we’re just beginning FA and no one on planet earth expected them to sign this early.
Can see Machado signing w/NYY – and Cash shipping Stanton to StL
Stanton already used his no trade clause to block a trade to St. Louis last off- season.
I don’t think Phillies go for either and save the money to see if Trout signs an extension. If he does they make a play on Arenado if not they empty the farm to get him
Angels will know if he wants to stay by next year
Owners won’t back out after literally saying they would spend stupid this winter
San Diego is stupid how they let him slip out they hands woulda let Tatoo move over to 3rd where most ppl I have read say he is destined to play anyway.
I’ve heard good things about J.P. Crawford but his stats (majors or minors) looks weak. Not sure if worth it.
I believe he may have been a top 3 rated overall prospect in MLB a few years ago. So the scouts obviously liked his tools. Phils organization not known for developing young players. Hopefully Seattles program can get the best out of JP Crawford.
Pre-2016 – #6
Pre-2017 – #12
Pre-2018 – #16
Pre-2016 – #5
Pre-2017 – #7
Pre-2018 – #37
Pre-2016 – #4
Pre-2017 – #4
Pre-2018 – #14
Cat quit lying
Copied from BB Ref – J.P.’s Minor and fall league stats
Good luck with that..J P has just never stepped up..
Hopefully the m’s get an additional prospect with Santana and Crawford. If not, the Phillies clearly won this trade.
They have to have another prospect. Santana’s deal is above market and segura’s is clearly below. Crawford still has some salvage value but not nearly enough to bridge that gap. Hopefully the M’s got Medina or De Los Santos in addition because if they didn’t this is bad. They have a collection of 1B/DH types on their roster now.
“Segura “and possibly one other player” are going to the Phillies”
Machado and Harper turn into Segura and Jay Bruce.
Yankees sign Machado and Harper.
Bruce actually makes a sliver of sense to be included if Seattle is more concerned about shedding $$ than acquiring prospects. The Phillies are better off with Bruce in their outfield than Hoskins. I don’t think that’s how the deal ends up but who knows.
Still bitter after all of these years Scott?
Perfect sign that machado is going to sign with the Yankees after this
Typical Yankee fan..expect every star too sign in NY…
It does not make sense to go from a good trade which increased your talent pool in prospect and lowered your payroll, to a trade for an all star short stop for C level prospect and below aging Santana. Unless we were not paying Santana’s contract at all. I mean it’s not a salary dump nor is it a means to get younger prospect.
Crawford is a A level prospect. One shortened year doesn’t diminish that
Yeah it does. It’s a prospect not a proven ML player with seasons behind him. We’re trading a SS with a proven track record.
Seager and Haniger head to LA for Kemp, Alvarez and Barnes. Pipe dream but I’d be open to it. Move Kyle or JT to second. Have to shake things up in that locker room.
Lol I’m sure you’d be open to it
You will have to put Will Smith in a deal to the Mariners, they will need a new long term catcher and the Dodgers have two options. Verdugo will also probably need to go to Seattle then you can possibly add some fillers as Haniger has surplus value.
This is a horrible deal for the M’s. Santana and Crawford SUCK and 40 mil Santana is still owed I don’t get it
Is there something I’m missing here
That’s not the whole deal…relax until you see it all
Yeah but any deal with Santana included is ridiculous. The fact the the highlighted names on this deals include these players makes this deal crappy for the M’s. I don’t think their dropping a prospects name that will impress anyone. At least any M fans
The tweet naming the prospects the Phillies are sending to Seattle. Phillies fans will be crying when that tweet arrives.
Segura is owed 59.4M, but that looks to be a relative deal to his play, while M’s are receiving Santana who is owed just over 40M for 2 years. I’ll be interested to see how this is framed because it seems like SEA just helped PHI out unless PHI is paying a lot of Santana and Segura’s deal – as moving Santana allows them to better utilize Hoskins at 1B, so they essentially upgrade 1B (Santana to Hoskins), OF (anyone but Hoskins), SS (Crawford to Segura), while still presumably having the ability to either convert Segura to 2B for Machado at SS or sign Machado for 3B. IF PHI didn’t pay a lot of both contracts, I’d expect to see someone like Medina coming back, though you’d think it would have already been reported.
Santana is only owed 35 his deal was front loaded. It’s too early to comment until we see the entire package. Yeah, right now it doesn’t look good for Seattle.
Closer to 40. I was mistaken. They frontloaded arrieta’s deal. I thought they frontloaded both of them.
2021 $17,500,000 Team Option, $500k Buyout.
The $10M signing bonus was spread out if memory serves
Yeah but Arrieta received his highest cash payout in year one. Santana only had a 15MM base this year. 17 next year and 17.5 in 2020 with the signing bonus split. His option is the same as the 2020 base w no bonus obviously. I don’t know if I’d classify that kind of deal as front loaded.
I wasn’t classifying or comparing to JA’s. While you were typing “I was mistaken” I was checking BBR and then Cot’s…that’s all.
“The $10M signing bonus was spread out if memory serves.”
Wrong. Phillies are loaded. 10M unusual high number guaranteed upfront.. Source: Cot’s
Yeah. I thought I had I heard his deal was frontloaded when it was signed but after I looked at the figures it didn’t seem to be a deal that I would classify as such. It was more of me thinking out loud on this board then saying anything to you about it. No harm here.
2021 $17,500,000 Team Option, $500k Buyout.
3 years/$60M (2018-20), plus 2021 club option
$10M signing bonus
18:$15M, 19:$17M, 20:$17.5M, 21:$17.5M club option ($0.5M buyout)
Do the math between the 2, dividing up $10M over 2018-20
No worries jbigz12
In all fairness I cannot determine if the figures shown on BBR are actual $$ paid or the salary used to determine AAV for CBT purposes. Players/clubs can negotiate how a bonus is paid.
As for the CBA it say this…..”Any Signing Bonus in a Uniform Player’s Contract (and any other payment this Article deems to be a Signing Bonus) shall be attributed, pro rata, over the Guaranteed Years of the Contract. If a Contract contains no Guaranteed Years, the Signing Bonus shall be attributed in full to the first year of the Contract.”….. and this “If a Player’s Contract is assigned to another Club, the pro-rated portion of the signing bonus will continue to be included in the Player’s Salary”
Starting the slow clap for Klentak
me too. that Santana deal should have never happened.
me too..never thought I’d do that…maybe, just maybe he has some skills in this area…
Segura and Pazos for Jp, Santana, Medina, Nick Williams
Jean Segura to Philadelphia and Carlos Santana to Seattle?
Oye como va and oy vey!
In all seriousness, I wonder what model Jerry uses to make these trades over the last month. Either it’s a new version of Billy Beane Moneyball or he absolutely has a plan and that that plan pans out. I’m not going to pan these deals he is making for a calendar year because I think I see what he is doing and hoping works out. If Santana is included, we know for sure more trades are happening. Other then maybe Segar, Leake, Gordon, etc,. by the trade deadline mid year.
Think Dipoto having just turned 50 is having a serious mid-life crisis and all the movement and trades are a reflection of this rather than some genius strategy that knows what it’s doing. That said, it’s rather fun to watch from the outside, and the fear of stagnation is justifiable. With all the FAs out there (recently non-tendered included), there’s got to be a way to still be in contention for less money etc and don’t doubt he will make efforts… but also slightly disappointed by his apparent need to change for the sake of change. Love the Cano deal for SEA (albatross off hook) but Segura is solid and shores up center infield – core player to keep. Bet Dipoto is quick in bed too
Sorry for posting twice – seems to be happening automatically- not copy pasting twice!
happens to me all the time
This is going to go from a competitive Ms team to a complete mixed bag. Can’t say I think it’s a smart business model. Worse players to take on than Santana though.
I think (hope) the Phils have been able to maneuver around Sanchez’s inclusion in the deal, but there’s a strong chance a guy like Medina plus a lower prospect are headed to Seattle with JP and Santana.
If I were Segura (and obviously am not), especially having been thrice traded and not happy bout it, would seriously consider staying in Seattle over Philly… or at least put a pause on it see who else they really sign – cuz Philly might be in contention this year – or not – and they’re the type of club that if it don’t work out, trade number 5 next year. NL east will not be as open as last year and don’t know if I believe they’re only one or two big contracts away from really pulling in front. Seattle is a nice place to be, comfort, and the AL west is just as shaky. Force Dipoto to make this change happen sooner. 5 years a big window
A previous thread posited the theory of Seager and Segura getting lumped together as a means of offsetting more salary. Segura to Philly is already nice, but imagine if Seager came too. Golly!
I was kind of thinking that but I’d rather go for Machado at 3rd or keeping Franco and trying for Arenado next year.
Machado’s being a stickler about still playing third, so I’m accepting this Segura deal as maybe we’re moving on from him.
Now, Arenado isn’t something I thought of. I’d rather have that.
Phillies could realistically open their wallets for a couple off seasons
Pretty sure Seattle is following a pretty legitimate Tear down model. Not sure why everyone is confused.. when most teams sell off to rebuild, they are trying to dump as much salary as possible, I think Jerry doesn’t mind spending the money on other teams trash, Bruce etc.. in order to obtain a better return.
Example : miami trades a player like segura in a rebuild and they would expect the other team to take on his whole salary and they wouldn’t get Crawford. I guess Jerry just doesn’t mind spending the money.
When you look at it, the mariners probably don’t expect to be done with the rebuild and competing again for at least 2 years and all of the crappy salaries they are taking on in these trades expire in 1-2 years. So they get better prospects by relieving their trade partner of dead weight salaries and in two years when they are trying to be competitive again, all those players will be off the books and they will be able to spend spend spend again to supplement their young talent.
yep, thats what it looks like he’s doing.
Mark Shark, How is aquiring bad contracts helping with return in this deal???
Hoskins finally gets back to 1B.
I never did understand why they didn’t run with him there in 2018….Oh well
Let’s keep the fun going with Trader Jerry and the Mariners! I propose a franchise altering trade between the Mariners and Blue Jays where Seaver, Gordon and Hanniger head to the Jays and the Jays send Tulowitzky, Morales, Martin, Devon Travis and Anthony Alford to the Mariners. Mariners clear Seager and Gordons 3 remaining years of salary totaling around $90M for their players and the Jays clear the deck of about $70M salary surrounding their players. Jays get Gordon as 2b, Seager plays a combo of 3b, 1b and DH for the Jays as well and Hanniger becomes the Jays starting LF. For the Mariners, they get a SS in Tulo who can fill Segura’s spot, Travis can man 2b, Morales is their DH and Alford is a potential 5 tool player who can fill Hannigers spot in the near future. And, each of these players have the potential of being traded in the future if they have good years. Again, just having fun, but, not out of the ball park.
That’s so, so bad for Seattle
Why not? We’re getting fleeced by Philly anyway. Hate this Philadelphia trade, what a disappointing and shocking return for Segura and two above avg RPs
2008 Tulo or 2018 Tulo? Cause that offer is as awful as this Phillies deal He just traded Segura who has huge amounts of value for a piece of crap, and an expensive piece of crap, just to offload a minor piece of crap. Making this whole trade crap.
Salisbury is saying it’s basically done with only minor details (Segura officially waging NtC and physicals) he also says it’s just JP and Santana and the Phillies could get back a pitcher or two!!!
Highway robbery if true
As a Phillies fan, I’m happy with the acquisition of Segura, good ballplayer, and it moves Hoskins back to first. Curious about the rest of the package, but it’s a nice building block and really don’t cost much more than Santana, he’s younger and he has 4 years left on his deal. Good start.
For the Mariners, alot of ppl are looking at this like they’re blowing it up. Jerry is pretty creative at moving pieces and yeah he’s traded alot of valuable assets..so they say it’s a rebuild. Well, let’s look at it…He’s reshaped it and I think they’ll win more games than what ppl think in 2019. Santana, Bruce, a young SS who could develop into an all star one day (hasnt had very many at bats at the MLB level for ppl to just discard him..let him actually play a few seasons and develop).. they get one of the best pitching prospects in all of baseball in Sheffield…also nab Swanson…traded one of the best defensive catchers for a speedy and athletic outfielder in Smith…ditched a crap contract in cano, gave up a good closer, but. Nabbed 2 top 5 prospects, a young reliever and 2 veterans from the mets…so Santana, Bruce, Smith, Crawford, a decent catcher.. Gordon goes back to 2b.. so far they still have hanniger.. next year they lose Felix Hernandez.. so next year, assuming they move leake at some point, you’ll have Sheffield, Gonzalez, Swanson in the rotation..3 young and controllable starters to build upon. They have a decent young core….really dive into the overall roster, knowing he’s not done making moves and he’s done a pretty darn good job of reshaping considering where they started. I think they’ll be better than expected. As for my Phil’s, Corbin, machardo, Britton would be nice now after this. Segura brings more speed, he gets alot of hits..led the league a few years ago, good overall player to add to Phillies core and a decent contract in the long run.
If you guys steal Corbin and Machado, very nice team
Nice doesn’t cut it and the Phillies don’t need Corbin.
Machado and Harper is exactly what the Phillies need. Then they have a team that can compete for the trophy.
they need A lefty. agreed it doesn’t need to be Corbin but at some point they need to address it.
that staff is garbage, you need pitching.
The Phillies staff? Dude, do you watch baseball? And I’m not even a Phillies fan.
The only “lefty” the Phillies need is Bryce Harper.
LHP are needed in the pen, not in the rotation.
Yeah, the Phillies staff is excellent with tremendous upside. Nick Pivetta’s ceiling is top shelf. Velasquez is getting better too.
“that staff is garbage, you need pitching.”
Except it’s not. The Phillies finished in the top third of the MLB in FIP in 2018. Nola is a top 3 pitcher in the NL. Arrieta is solid. The team has some enviable depth with Velasquez, Eflin, Pivetta, De Los Santos, and Romero. The Mets certainly could have used depth like that in the last few seasons.
The bullpen is still a work in progress but Hunter and Neshak are both solid. Neris can be great but is a wild card. And Arano and Dominguez were excellent in 2018.
Garbage…don’t watch much baseball do ya?
That staff is anything but garbage. I really wish ATL had a chance at Nola. Interesting though that Kranitz got the axe considering all of the critics Kapler had with his bullpen usage and pulling his starters. Also interesting that ATL, in need of a pitching coach, is circling Kranitz. If he’s hired, hopefully he could give the hitters the low-down on Nola.
Dear Billy (Santa) Beane
All I want for Christmas is Mitch Haniger.
Thank you and merry christmas
Has anyone ever seen Jerry DiPotto and Tim Dierks in the same room at the same time?
I’ve met Jerry Dipoto in a bathroom before(sounds awkward), but have no clue what Tim Dierks looks like..
I met Jack Z once. Stating to think he’s tinkerer Jerry’s advisor.
Crappy Swarzak, getting passed around like a hot potato, is also headed to philly
I just think it’s odd to be trading someone before he’s even officially on the team.
Swarzak got the Carmelo Anthony treatment.
Crawford and Santana are garbage. M’s are dumb.
This is a very well thought out, compelling argument.
Its such a bad trade it doesn’t need supporting analysis.
hey, I’ll take it. We got rid of the albatross contract that was Santana’s. Rhys goes back to first. I’m happy.
I don’t think a 3 year deal can be an albatross.
I confess, yes, that was a poor word choice.
I had meant to say that the deal maybe perhaps never happened and it was a bit of a burden.
Either or, I’m just glad for the return we’re getting.
Still need about 800 or so comments to match the Mets trade.
Can Anthony Swarzak get his deposits back on property in Seattle and the moving company set to haul his stuff out there?
“I don’t need to move, I’m just a longer ride down the Turnpike.”
there’s a fascinating aside about stuff like that in “Ball Four” where Jim Bouton talks about how frustrating it is to schedule moving companies and stuff like that when you get traded and bounced around. it’s a fun read.
Ball Four has never been put on Mobi or Epub. I don’t recall Jim Bouton ever prospering in the media.
Funny how that works with baseball.
Yes it has I have all his books and his ex wife’s book on this kindle fire. You must have been asleep for ten years
You’re right, it is a Kindle at Amazon. There are also links that show it isn’t available and have the “Tell the publisher you would like to read this on Kindle”. The later has over 500 reviews so it looks like the main listing.
Doubt he is all too worried. The acquiring team pays a big chunk of moving expenses. The also pay for rental housing, furniture etc.
Swarzak doesn’t know what to do. First Nightengale and Heyman said he was going to Philly and then twenty minutes later Stark tweets he isn’t in the deal and Heyman has flipped to Stark’s position.
MLB doesn’t get bothered by the mariners trading away all these players? Not sure if I remember it right but didn’t they get on the Marlins about doing the same thing? Mariners clearly tanking.
They really aren’t. They should be, but they aren’t. They’re going after major league players and high-minors prospects (except for Kelenic).
The people who run MLB Network must send Jerry DiPoto a fruit basket every Christmas.
He’s single handedly keeping this MLB offseason from being like the NHL offseason after the first day.
I was getting ready to post something just like this, so I’ll just say ‘ditto’.
Okay but who IS getting traded.
When are the writers going to be held accountable for reporting wrong information? I am not referring to MLBTR writers, I am referring to Nightengale who is ALWAYS wrong and also Heyman now.
As this trade stands right now it makes absolutely zero sense for the Mariners. Segura is a very good shortstop and there is no reason to provide any salary relief for a player in his prime that is making less than $15 million per year.
J.P. Crawford has not been productive at any level of baseball since 2015 and the Carlos Santana contract is one of the worst in baseball for a player who isn’t versatile. The only reason to take on Santana’s contract is not to even out the contracts but to buy a solid prospect but Jason Stark stated the Mariners are not getting a top pitching prospect back.
Something has to give but I am very shocked how there hasn’t been any rumored prospect(s) this late in the deal but this deal is definitely not official yet as nobody seems to know what is going on outside of Segura, Crawford, and likely Santana.
Not that bad. Segura is a little overrated. Solid player, no doubt, but a BA-heavy OPS which games the WAR system a little (it’s a way to get yourself higher value when you play in a big pitchers park). Steamer is projecting a roughly league average hitter with very little power, and a lot of baseball execs are assuming he’s not long for shortstop (he turns 29 this year). He wouldn’t get a five year deal as a SS if he were a FA this year.
Meanwhile, Crawford is a scout’s darling who may or may not become a star, Certainly has the talent, and looked like it toward the end of last year. And Santana is actually projected for about 0.8 less wins than Segura by himself. Throw in a Philly prospect going to Seattle and I think this works just fine for the M’s. If you’ve never seen Segura play, Phillies fans, he’s not someone you worry about or try and upgrade, but he’s clearly not a cornerstone player.
Segura moves around the board like Milton Bradley.
I watched Segura in person about 50 times last year and he is the furthest thing from overrated as it comes. He has excellent contact skills and can hit any pitch with authority.
I am a huge prospectnik and I have followed JP Crawford for years and he has never shown an affinity for productive baseball, especially in the high minors.
I respect your analysis but I would much rather the M’s keep Segura than to trade him for an underwhelming and highly overrated former top prospect and Carlos Santana-who is paid about $7-10 million more per year than he should be paid.
Maybe you’re not the prospectnik you think you are. In J.P. Crawford’s last 287 PAs in AAA in 2017 he hit 12 home runs and had a slash line of .376/.512/.889. This isn’t long ago, since he hasn’t played that much since due to injuries. That’s high minors and I think it’s an affinity for productive baseball.
I said stop lying coast 1 baseball America had him at #12 then he fell to #92 then Crawford fell out of the list entirely. And this year Minor League Ball’s John Manuel said Crawford wasn’t even in his top 200.
Coast1 is an idiot
Bus035- I’m with you, It pains me to see Segura leave but not as much as it does when I look at what we get in return. We’re trading an All-Star SS who is feared by SP’s. I’ve watched Ms games on out-of town broadcasts- the commentators give so much respect to Segura and as I say, have mentioned they fear him in the lineup. So disappointed
BABIP is not a static number. You don’t look at it as a batting average where every year .300 is good. BABIP is driven by hard contact and speed. So a slow guy with bad hard contact numbers could have a BABIP around .230 and suck (Brian Dozier). A guy with crazy good hard contact numbers and slow (JD Martinez) will still have a rare but sustainable .375 BABIP.
Slow and Crappy with No Power
Adrian Gonzalez (.260 BABIP)
Slow and Average with Average Power
Justin Smoak (.297 BABIP)
Slow and Good with Good Power
Miguel Cabrera (.352 BABIP)
Fast and Crappy with No Power
Billy Hamilton (.309 BABIP)
Fast and Good with Average Power
Jean Segura (.327 BABIP)
Fast and Good with Good Power
Mike Trout (.346 BABIP)
Segura didn’t do anything abnormal in terms of his BABIP. He’s a slightly above average runner with max effort on all balls put in play. He’s going to get a few extra hits on balls hit to the left side of the infield and the ball will fall in a little more often for him when lined into the outfield due to his average power. A guy like Billy Hamilton that plays like Willie Mays Hays is going to keep struggling when they won’t put the ball on the ground and their power is much less than someone like Segura.
Now Swarzak is NOT in the trade. No one wants him.
So the cano trade to the mers is now essentially a three team trade. If Swarzak going to the Phillies from the Mariners
Machado back to the Dodgers now?
What changed with the Dodgers?
Machado is signing with whomever pays him what he’s looking for. There are no other considerations. David Price signed with the team he most disliked and which had players he did not like.
Money talks, bull…. walks.
Phils may choose to allocate money elsewhere (Kikuchi? McCutchen?). The Dodgers seem inclined to spend whatever they want for FAs and make other roster moves to accommodate the spending.
Just seems like a bunch of bull trades from the M’s lately and the fact that the braves haven’t capitalize on it yet is a tad frustrating
Opens the door for Goldschmidt to the Phillies?
Nope. Rhys back to first.
Where would Hoskins play?
I give no fox
For the diamondbacks
If we have a chance to get Goldy…I would be all over it. Dude is an outright stud. Move Hoskins back to the OF and get working on him now. Everyone is clamoring for him to move back at first, but he is a defensive nightmare there as well. He just can’t field anywhere so lets not go nuts in moving him back to first. GET GOLDY…he might be even better than Harper and Machado…who knows!!
Maybe going to Seattle is something up Crawford needs. Non contending team and he can figure things out on the mlb level.
All these trade so far I feel like Seattle is winning
Yankees Mets and Phillies
No way the M’s won the Yankees trade. That was a very underwhelming return and many executives and scouts said the same. Paxton is legit and Sheffield at best is a solid #3 and the other two pieces came nowhere near the value the M’s should’ve have received.
However, I love the Mets trade. I would’ve loved to get Jeff McNeil but overall pretty solid.
Depending on this return, I don’t think they won this trade either. I mean Crawford has the most potential but they got a small lottery ticket while taking on similar salary. Even if Santana and Segura (unlikely) have similar value, they could’ve gotten better than Crawford if they just dealt Segura alone without taking back salary.
The deal isn’t done yet but if the above is what it is, no way they won this deal.
I’m confused. Is Swarzak in or out?
Overall, I think M’s could have sent Mallex Smith over as well and got Andres Giminez, maybe. But, overall, great trade.
The Mariners are gonna suck if they make that trade sending Segura to Philly. Whos next, Seager? I think Kelenic is gonna get rushed so he don’t think he will fully develop into an All-Star. Dunn will be good too.
By the safety precautions they have been taking on Lewis and Gilbert, shows the Mariners are more invested into developing prospects, rather than what they did in the past.
How far in the past? As in Lewis and Clark?
I can recall more than a few prospects that the Mariners had no trouble developing…like Ken Griffey Jr., Alex Rodriguez and Felix Hernandez!
He’s talking Smoak, Zunino, Franklin, Ackley, Walker…
Lewis had an injury. Gilbert hasnt even played yet.
I am a bit worried, Lewis was able to stay in the minors because we had signed big time Free Agents so he didn’t need to be rushed.
I feel like only Felix makes sense as the mystery pitcher since it’s not Swarzak and he’s the only pitcher that would deserve that level of secrecy and for Dipoto to get his donkey spanked in a trade that most 8 year olds are intelligent enough to boo-hoo.
Klentak might surprise all of the Phans…I actually didn’t think he’d find a taker for Santana…That’s one in a row,,,
And Juan sure looks happy…. https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/sports/csn/phillies/Jean_Segura_sure_looks_happy_about_potential_trade_to_Phillies-501798172.html
LOL! Sure does look happy..
half asleep typo
M’s fans— ok with the rebuild? (I know jerry isn’t calling it that) I only ask cause I don’t remember a team tearing it down after getting 89 wins for as long as I’ve followed the game. Teams have definitely traded valuable pieces but not this many in money-saving moves.
Well they were third in that division and couldn’t even make the playoffs with 89 wins. The top teams in the AL are so far ahead of everyone else, maybe they felt like they needed to come back in 2 years when someone might fall away.
Good point. The Mariners don’t have the luxury of being in a weak division like the AL Central, one in which a team like the White Sox may actually accelerate their rebuild this offseason with some sensible free agent signings and astute trades.
Seattle is doing the right thing in their situation. Whether they are making the best deals is still to be determined.
Fair Enough. It would appear to be a good core with Segura, Paxton, Haniger, Seager, Gonzales and Diaz but I suppose when you consider Cano’s contract and the Loss of Cruz It makes sense to revamp the farm. Still, I feel like it would also have made sense to make a couple big moves and go for it next year.
Or to stand pat, or just to make the move to unload as much of cano’s deal as possible at the expense of Edwin Diaz.
will the A’s play at the level they did in the 2nd half?? Probably not.
Verlander and Cole. Will the 3-5 sp be as good as last year?? dont know.
will they be 95-99 win teams in ’19?
I’m fine with the rebuild than another 3 seasons of being close by the All Star break then things fall apart. Just don’t like to hear each trade so far has been a light return (except Colume trade has solid).
I get that Crawford was a very highly rated prospect a couple years ago and rarely rookies bust out immediately in the majors, but his stats look more like the next Félix Fermin at best. Not worth a solid 28 yr old SS and then taking money on too (though Santana could bounce back)
For a rebuild, the Mariners may not have such a bad lineup
C Omar Narvaez (L)
C David Freitas
1B Carlos Santana (B)
2B Dee Gordon (L)
3B Kyle Seager (L)
SS JP Crawford (L)
LF Ben Gamel (L)
CF Mallex Smith (L)
RF Mitch Haniger
DH Jay Bruce (L)
DH Ryon Healy
The pitching staff has been their downfall the last few years.
Seager’s gonna be traded.
Thought it was a strength last year up until the end.
Not a bad 5
That’s a terrible 5. You’re counting on 4 rookies and Marco Gonzales is your ace. Dunn isn’t even big league ready yet.
It looks like the lineup of a 4th place team.
I’ll take 4th place in year one of a rebuild.
This is for the lineup at the moment. It’ll be last place.
fighting the Rangers for last.
I getting a 2 year supply of zoloft; anyone else.
Rangers are out of it for the next few years. With Brad Ausmus as Manager, the Angels are out too. I’m not so sure where the M’s rate compared with the A’s.
Segura plays SS, Hernandez plays 2B, Franco 3B and Kingery goes to LF? Another trade upcoming? Where does Machado fit? If he’s signed, Philly will have to make a deal.
How Hoskins can play 1B where he should have been all along.
Cesar or Franco get traded, Kingery goes to the bench.
To put Kingery in left is only slightly better than Hos in left..Doesn’t make sense..as for Mikel Franco, the only way he stays at 3rd base is if Manny is not signed..I truly believe if you give Manny the $$ he wants, he will take 3rd.
I’m thinking that Scott Kingery might end up as a super utility guy he is being described as. As long as Cesar Hernandez is still on the team, Kingery doesn’t have a position.
to follow up on my post, there has been talk that the Phillies might move Cesar Hernandez..if one of the Phillies minor league pitchers (Sixto or Medina) are included in this deal, they will want to find some very young arms to put back in the system..Cesar could get that for them..just MHO
dads – That is why I posted that comment. This trade gives Philly a surplus of infielders which would imply another possible trade in the works.
Maybe they’ll find a home for Franco..he really only plays 3rd and 1st..all the more reason to get Manny if possible and sooner than later..the longer Manny and Bryce linger, the worse it is for the Phils
Why is it worse the longer they linger? Neither is going to sign until the Winter Meetings, which is always the case. Machado and Harper are meeting with teams and gathering info…one will likely sign at the meetings, one after is my guess.
Manny and Bryce both want the same thing…a higher AAV than Zack G. and/or a higher total than Stanton. It can be done with with a shorter term (shorter than the 12-14 year proposals out there) if a team has the right mix of young talent and payroll space like the Phillies.
Offer Manny a total of 8 years guaranteed with an opt out after 3 but a team option to void the opt out by adding $5-$6M/year for the next 3 years.
Then an opt out after 6 years with no team override Add team options for years 9-10 with buyouts.
If he produces years 1-3 you can lock him up for his 6 most productive years. If he is still producing after year 6 he may just want to opt out and test the market at age 32.
Shorter term/higher AAV contract allow teams to retool quicker and players to maximize earnings.
Of course the base salaries to make it work will be $36-$38M per (not counting the override “bonuses”) but it can work buy “rotating top end talent and it allows teams to reset the CBT every so often.
I think Cesar is moved and Franco probably too. I think they’ll give Kingery every opportunity to be the 2B. I could see them going after a utility guy in FA like a Jed Lowrie or even bringing Asdrubal back. A couple options they could do but the main would be to get Machado.
If that takes place, I would not be upset if Asdrubal returns..
I hope they stay away from Machado. Harper is a much better get.
If they can’t find a trade for Hernandez (and they likely won’t) they’ll cut him and avoid paying him a huge arbitration number (which isn’t guaranteed). Kingery plays second, Segura at short. Then we’ll see what happens. Don’t think they sign Machado, and hope they don’t. His knees and attitude worry me.
We’re all kind of barfing in the wind until the final details of these moves are released. And we have no idea what Jerry D. and Baron Von Snoot have in the fire. And the possible ramifications on the free agent market.
This is the new landscape, where teams are buyers and sellers at the same time. The “tanking” idea as a marketing tool may have lost it’s luster….decreased attendance and TV ratings have pretty much delivered that verdict.
That’s why a Salary Floor is CRUCIAL to the next CBA. To pick on the Rays a bit, forcing them to up the payroll MIGHT lead them to consider taking on Santana’s contract….why not, there’s a positional need, and Carlos isn’t that bad a player. In addition, they could further build their system insisting that Philly include a decent prospect.. All for spending a few bucks.
Forcing EVERY team to have a 100-110M payroll (in 2019 dollars) would cause a LOT of these kinds of moves….and produce a better, more competitive product.
MLBPA insists on a floor….MLB insists on a cap….1994 all over again.
Last year the average opening day payroll was $137 million. It went up 4% in 2016 and 4% in 2017 but only 1% last year. If MLB is generous and raises it 10% that’s a $150 million salary cap. I don’t see the Yankees, Red Sox, and other high revenue teams agreeing to spend only $150 million.
CBA negotiations are quid pro quo. If the MLBPA wants a floor the owners will counter with a cap so it will be a wash or strike, which is doubtful. No one want a rehash of 94.
in the 90-93 negotiations there was a proposal of a floor and to counter balance it a cap. The owners also offered a “partnership giving the players 48% of all gates, local and national TV (today that would be a huge sum of money) but they also wanted to do away with arbitration and replace it with a “play for performance” system. Quid pro quo and it was a wash…the union rejected it.
The luxury tax is in position to help balance out the teams to help them compete..all to many times, the teams getting the $$$ don’t spend it to improve their teams..it wasn’t all that far in the past that MLB warned the Guppies they better spend that money or be constricted..
How do you figure? What players went without contracts? To really help the game they should quit raising the luxury tax cap. They should quit letting teams get seven years of MLB control after getting seven years of minor league control. They should allow easier movement of players to foreign leagues. Allow all draft picks to be traded. Stopping major market teams from rebuilding by allowing them to buy picks.
“Forcing EVERY team to have a 100-110M payroll (in 2019 dollars) would cause a LOT of these kinds of moves….and produce a better, more competitive product.”
That’s what the NBA does…every team has a payroll in that range, yet the NBA is not competitive at all. Same NBA finals 4 straight years..
NFL has a hard cap, yet little competitiveness. How many different teams have played in the Super Bowl since the cap came into effect? How many have won?
Having a salary cap does not lead to competitiveness; being run intelligently leads to competitiveness.
Correct because teams at the bottom end of the spectrum want top draft picks, so they overpay crappy players to look like they are spending within the range necessary, but yet at the end of the day, they want to fail and reap the draft picks for a few years.
“That’s why a Salary Floor is CRUCIAL to the next CBA.”
But that wouldn’t accomplish your supposed goal of avoiding tanking. You point out the Rays…who have never really “tanked”. They were just terrible during their first decade, and have remained competitive mostly for the last 10 years. How will forcing them to spend money keep a team that hasn’t tanked from tanking? That makes no sense.
Then in your same argument you point out the Santana situation with the Phillies, a team that has tanked…but also while maintaining a high payroll. The Phillies have been terrible since 2012, and been aiming for higher draft picks, but they haven’t accomplished that by running $75M payrolls…In fact, the Phillies end of year payroll (which the salary floor/cap would be based on) has been below $100M just once since 2006.
Not really a good argument that forcing teams to spend would avoid tanking when the one that spends has tanked and the one that doesn’t hasn’t, don’t you think?
I know this sounds crazy, but maybe he is trying to show 10 years of direction, so he can impress Harper and Machado. If he drops the payroll to $50M, he can add both of them and still have room to grow. Plus if anyone believes that Dipoto can take two years of basement dwelling, they don’t pay attention to what he’s done as a front office member. He just has to look like he is in sell everything mode or teams like the Phillies will see clearing payroll for the Mariners as a way to block their own attempt at signing the marquee players on the free agent market.
Your points are legit, but I think we’d disagree on what “tanking” means. To me, tanking means deliberately putting out an inferior product with the hope of reaping benefits later (through drafting, etc.). In that sense, the Phillies have never really tanked; they’ve just been dumb. So they can be criticized for being dumb. That’s fair.
On reflection, it’s legit to note the Rays have never really tanked either. They’ve just failed to go the extra mile to get over the hump. If they had kept Dickerson/Colome/Span/ Eovoldi this year, e.g. , the AL east scenario may very well had been altered. (Throw September out the window; the Sox were on auto pilot and the Yanks were just prepping a Wild Card lineup).
A salary floor may have forced them to keep those guys, or at least replace them with similarly talented players. And of course the Dickerson fiasco was a double doppelganger….they lost 5M on the deal, along with the loss of his talents. And I’m no Corey Dickerson fan, but I think he would have been more productive than Rob Refsnyder or Carlos Gomez.
Ultimately, we COMPLETELY agree that it’s more a matter of FO ability than anything else. Obviously the challenges are different; Philly fans should be up in arms. There’s next to NO excuse for them playing the way they have this decade. But Rays fans should be also; they haven’t used their resources as productively as KC, Milwaukee, Cleveland (teams in similar economic situations) have.
So we can legitimately say they are dumb too. And that’s fine; they were.
Yeah….Well, I like going to Tacoma Rainier games more ANYWAYS!!! Maybe they can ACTUALLY get a Sniff of the Playoffs over the next Decade!!!
So, some are saying that the NL East moves by the Nats, Braves, Phils and Mets make it the best division in baseball. I hope these so-called great teams all pound the Marlins enough so we can get the #1 pick next year. But I’m guessing the Braves will be very good again; Phils will be a little better and contend; the Nats will take a step back if they lose Harper; and Mets will be the Mets and will try to take the higher draft pick away from the Marlins.
In the end, these 4 teams can have the transactions. The Marlins got Jeter’s “Intangibles”. All we need now is for one of our other owners, Michael Jordan, to convince MLB to get David Stern to be the commissioner of MLB, and the Marlins will be a lock to win it all next year.
stan lee the manly
Lol. It’s the only division that’s made any moves, of course it’s the “best division in baseball.”
It sure won’t be coming out of the other side of the winter meetings
Competitive maybe. Best? Not a chance.
No one is talking about the club house issues that Segura had last season. Getting in a fit fight with Dee Gordon.
I’ve heard he has a chip on his shoulder…well, He Man Kapler will smile him to death…
Thanks…I just spit water I was drinking all over my keyboard
I thought so. I was just guessing when I wrote how he must be bad in the clubhouse because he never sticks on a team for more than a season or two even though he has a good bat and plays arguably the most important position with decent defense. There had to be a reason he keeps getting traded and usually for what seems to be less than his market value would be. Thanks for filling me in.
Manny is running out of teams that want him. That’s what a crappy attitude get you.
LOL>>seriously…he hasn’t run out of any teams..30 teams want him..he who scratches out the biggest check gets him…crappy attitude and all..
I’m guessing that among the happiest people associated with Mariners baseball next season will be the folks who sell programs…
“Trust me… you CAN’T tell the players without a program…”
Wrong they are a very democratic state, I’m sure program sellers are unionized and are hoping to collect pay with minimal amounts of effort, so to them this is hell, if anything they are outside the Not-Safeco Field boycotting the trades. Before they were happy…
“Yup, same team, here’s your Rainiers program to update you on all the ‘roster improvements’ that will be coming, yeah same results, why change the program if they are still the same crapass team? Okay sit down and wait for the peanut guy to control the zone when he throws you a big steaming pile of…. peanuts!”
who is next on the Mariners list to trade?
Probably Seager and Leake to San Diego for Wil Myers and hopefully Franmil Reyes.
Then you have….
I think Hernandez is the missing piece because he has 10-5 rights and they wouldn’t involve his name until he gave his blessing. But he’s the only albatross big enough to explain such a crappy return for Segura and then doubling down with taking back Santana and all his glory.
I would like the down voters to explain what was inaccurate? Or do you just down vote what doesn’t jive with your reality? San Diego needs a 3B and Seager is an above average 3B who was playing with a bad foot for most of last season. I hardly consider last season to be what we should expect going forward from him. Of course we now know Felix isn’t part of the deal, but we also now know that Jerry is a freakin’ moron and shouldn’t be allowed to pick ice cream flavors for a kids party let alone make trades anymore.
Who wants Wil no position Myers??
overrated or not, we, angels fans, are glad segura went away.
Okay…the Mets deal just completed..Now, we’ll get to see the complete deal with the Phillies…
Hey dads, you think this deal means no Machado? I think they still go hard after him to replace Franco, but it seems like it might make it harder to convince him to come to Philly as he says he wanted to play at short….or they play Segura at 2nd and move Cesar?
I think they will try hard for MM..
Best I can guess, the Phillies desperately wanted Swarzak and coaxed the M’s into acquiring him because the Mets didn’t wanna deal with his incredible talent. Now that the M’s see how truly powerful he is they have reneged on the deal. He will be their closer and hold 2 spots in their rotation.
Nicasio is in the deal not Swarzak.
All hail the mighty Swarzak. MVP & Cy Young in 2019 mark my words.
Wow, Pazos, Segura, and Nicasio? M’s are even dumber than I thought.
Just when you think the Ms couldn’t be any dumber, they pull a move like this. I shutter to think what Haniger will be dumped for. Dustin Ackley and a 36 year old AAA reliever sounds about right, right now.
Just when you think the Ms couldn’t be any dumber, they pull a move like this….AND TOTALLY REDEEM THEMSELVES!
got the reference 😀
It seems that the Phillies effectively ROBBED the Mariners on this deal. It is hard to understand why the Phillies didn’t have to send much more back to Seattle.
Pazos thrown in? What’s next, Ms pay all Seguras salary too for 5 years? Jerry you are a moron
There has to be more.. Just has to. They only saved around $20 MM all things together. And there’s the talent issue.
I still can’t believe Nicasio had a 6 ERA yet with a sub-3.00 FIP
Guess we still have no idea who is being traded other than Segura as of 4:15 pm eastern.