A roller coaster of a season has seen the Giants go from league doormats to wild card contenders, while deploying a seemingly endless revolving door of outfielders along the way. With this in mind, NBC Sports Bay Area’s Alex Pavlovic looks back on the Giants’ pursuit of Bryce Harper last winter, which obviously would have completely changed the shape of the season had the future Phillie opted to come to San Francisco. While the pursuit of value signings, particularly in the outfield, have defined Farhan Zaidi’s first season running the Giants’ front office, it was Zaidi who led the interest in Harper’s services, with Giants ownership feeling that Harper’s large salary demands would’ve been somewhat offset by an increase in attendance and overall fan interest. “It’s a what-if game they’ll be playing at Oracle Park for years to come,” Pavlovic writes.
More from around the NL West…
- The Padres are shutting down MacKenzie Gore from competitive innings in the coming weeks, Jeff Saunders of the San Diego Union-Tribune writes, though the star prospect will continue to throw on the side and could possibly return to help Double-A Amarillo reach their playoffs. The left-hander has tossed 99 1/3 combined innings this season at Double-A and high-A ball this season, a sizeable jump up from the 60 frames Gore tossed at A-level Fort Wayne in 2018 (and his 21 1/3 innings in rookie ball in 2017). While there aren’t any real injury concerns with Gore, San Diego is naturally being as cautious as possible with Gore’s development, given his importance to the Padres’ future plans.
- The Padres face several questions heading into the offseason, as The Athletic’s Dennis Lin (subscription required) addresses in a reader mailbag piece. The Padres still have to learn whether several young players, such as Francisco Mejia and Manuel Margot, can be reliable everyday big leaguers, but Lin also feels some of the uncertainty could extend to manager Andy Green. While winning wasn’t a priority in Green’s first three seasons since the team was rebuilding, more than a 52-61 mark was expected in 2019, particularly after Manny Machado and Fernando Tatis Jr. joined the roster. “Has Green proven himself particularly adept at player development or capable of steering a competitive team? No one will dispute his work ethic, but nearly four years in, the jury remains out on both counts,” Lin writes. While Green’s contract runs through the 2021 season, Lin notes that other rebuilding teams in recent years (i.e. the Cubs and Joe Maddon, the Phillies and Gabe Kapler) have made a managerial change once they felt on the cusp of returning to contention.
- Now that the Diamondbacks have dealt Zack Greinke, GM Mike Hazen estimates the team could have around $20MM in extra funds in both 2020 and 2021. “I’m assuming there’s going to be some more freedom to explore some things we haven’t explored in the past,” Hazen told Nick Piecoro of the Arizona Republic, though specifics aren’t yet known about what the club’s payroll capacity will be without Greinke on the books. 2018 and 2019 saw the D’Backs post the two highest Opening Day payrolls in club history, topping out at over $131.5MM at the start of the 2018 season. Now, the D’Backs have just under $68MM in guaranteed money for 2020, though that number will increase significantly due to arbitration raises. While it doesn’t seem likely that the Snakes will again approach $206.5MM on a future signing, Hazen didn’t feel the Greinke contract was a mistake given how well the ace righty pitched, crediting the much-maligned former D’Backs front office led by Tony La Russa and Dave Stewart. “They were right on Zack Greinke. We weren’t able to put it together the way we would have hoped while he was here,” Hazen said. “But they were right on him. It was a good deal.”
180 innings in 3 years, and he needs to be shut down?!?? Man they baby these pitchers too much. No wonder no one goes 200 or can even go 5 anymore. Weak.
Really funny how you act like all the thousands of innings they throw from age 5-17 don’t count, and the damage being done is from players starting too young and throwing too hard too young. Nope, blame the players again for being “soft” or some lame excuse of a critique.
Really funny how you think players didn’t throw from age 5-17 in the past also. I’m sure Nolan Ryan and Steve Carlton pitched a lot of innings in Little League and high school and the minors and yet they still pitched well over 200 and sometimes over 300 innings every year. What has changed? The human body in 1969 is basically the same as the human body in 2019. If anything, they are in better shape. Why can pitchers no longer do the things they did in 1969?
Nolan Ryan and Steve Carlton were freaks of nature. Using the exception as the rule is ridiculous.
Your average kid, and average major leaguer, are throwing harder than ever. The margin for error is smaller than ever
Also, call me crazy, but I think Teams spending millions on research and development every year, know more than you.
Let’s check the stats for innings pitched. Let’s go with the league leader and the pitcher that finished 10th that year..
2018 Innings Pitched:
1) Scherzer 220.2
10) Mikolas 200.2
1969 Innings Pitched:
1) Perry 325.1
10) Marichal 299.2
Ryan and Carlton didn’t play travel ball year
round!!??
Struck a nerve there, huh 4? Averaging 60 IP a year for 3 years, is ridiculous. I don’t care what you say. I get innings limits while they are developing, but that’s just crazy. It’s not Gores fault. Just the game now, but I think it’s weak.
It’s pitiful
Nothing new here. Teams do this all the time. You almost never see a player pitch 60ip one year then +150ip the next.
It would be interesting to see a timeline through high school and college for these pitchers though.
It seems to me that 20 and 60 innings for two years of pro ball seems very small.
Agreed,a jump from 60 to 150 would be a lot.
But if he was throwing 60 in high school,and 100 in college,it seems that severely dropping him down at 23 years of age could do as much harm as good.
It’s probably more. Most high schoolers throe between 60-100 in season, And another 50 in showcase/travel ball. Also Gore is only 20 and never pitched in college.
Thank you Chicks.I did not know Gore so he may not be a good example.
I did not really have a good idea about high school as it has been a long time but I was on the low end.
I think it wise to not over extend these young arms in the first years of the pros but babying them too much may not only impede their progress,it could set their arms up for physical failure as they are not used to the wear and tear.
A starter like Gore probably threw 80-90 pitches in 12-13 starts per season in high school including playoffs. Pitchers usually get 4 starts in travel ball per year. So add another 28 IP if they pitch complete games.
What happened to Kerry Wood and Mark Prior, ZacharyPaul?
Mechanics
It’s not that they are babied it’s that they are not taught how to pitch
They want to bring guys up and use all their natural abilities before the reach free agency and get the most out of them st the cheapest price possible. Then the ones who blow their arms out they discard them and the ones who are able to develop some ability to actually pitch they sign long term.
Perhaps they are babying them, but what is the cost when one of these guys get injured and is out for 1-2 years? The teams have done the math and it’s just not worth it.
Giants super-blew it not getting Harper. No better fit for both sides.
Harper in a pitcher’s Park?
He’s Bryce Harper, he hits anywhere. Would have mashed so many into the Bay.
20 home runs this year is not very much by today’s stats. Miami unknown RF just hit his 20th and I bet 99% of people here don’t know his name.
Bryan Anderson, and that’s without googling lol… But your point is valid
Damn.. it’s “Brian” not “Bryan” after looking it up… So close
He was trying to make him more interesting than he is by spelling his name with a y
Strike Four-Harper is a good player,but he did not even make the AS team this year.
He is striking out over 30 % of the time with only 20 homers and is hitting .250.
We will have to see several years down the road if he is worth $30M a year.
It’s Bryce Harper, he can hit .254 anywhere!
Swing and a miss
i knew it, but only because one, i was on the marlins page the other day (wanted to see how bad the team was) and two, the name is one i remember from the d-backs 2001 ws winner (not the same guy, clearly, but enough to trigger a memory when i saw it)
Not after next year, the Giants are closing the gaps, and moving the bullpens out to triples alley!
That would be a
great idea!
Teams need 25 good players to win. One guy
isn’t going to matter if
the rest or the team
is bad. But the Giants
did want to sell more
tickets which is kind
of the point…..
It was a bad deal.
I’m glad Harper didn’t sign with SF. Too much $$$ for 1 guy and the Giants already have multiple, bad contracts that they are stuck with. He’s a good player, but not 300M good.
I hope Girardi gets the job once Andy is fired in San Diego. Would be a nice match with his playoff experience and a young team that is on the cusp of contending.
I’ve wanted Opie gone since the Rizzo-Hedges incident but knowing the Padres’ FO they’ll probably extend him again.
Interesting that Joe’s name is coming up here now tied to the Friars. Up until the All-Star Break, he was the manager-in-waiting to replace Mickey.
Would love to bring in a manager that players would respect. Ever since Bochy left we have missed that. Manager with the ability to make in game decision to result in Wins.
Padres are not paying what it takes to get a Joe Girardi
I thought I liked Andy, but we have not done anything with him yet. I feel like the Padres are so close to being good. With so many changes, maybe they should try one more season.
It’s a little unfair to judge
Andy Green wanting when
the Padres front office
hasn’t given him enough
good starting pitching…..
In the good ole days real pitchers would throw 300 innings and 15 complete games.
Barefoot in the snow?
Uphill into the wind
And use a baseball for more than 3 pitches.
Uphill both ways.
5 miles
Different game nowadays
Everyone I hear bout how much better the pitchers of tester year were I never hear how much better the hitters are nowadays
One of the major reasons why games are so much longer is the fact on how many more pitches batters are taking.
Pitchers are being brought up from the minors so early that their command is not having the proper time to develop. Now the philosophy is to use the pitchers that were not able to develop 3rd & 4th pitches 1 or 2 innings and come in and use those 2 pitches they have at full velocity.
The numbers say after 2 times thru the order the numbers start to favor the hitter and 4th time thru it’s a dramatic increase
Also I grew up watching Yankee & Brave games. I have heard both Tom Seaver & Don Sutton say they had pitch counts in their day. They said between 115-125 is when they would be looking to have to come out. That’s not that many more pitches than now just different.
I heard Glavine Maddux and Smoltz all say they wanted to pitch to contact first time thru the order and get ground outs & fly balls as fast as they could so they would pitch to contact so by the 3rd time thru they had superior stuff still and by then guys still hadn’t seen their best stuff yet.
The reason why guys are not going longer on games is because they are not throwing as many strikes and waste a lot more pitches over the course of a game.
You demolish your own argument when you say pitchers of the ’60s-70s were expecting to make 115-125 pitches. That’s about 20-25% more than any pitcher expects to be allowed to throw in a game today, or 2-3 innings. This is why seasons of 200 innings from a starter were commonplace before and are considered to be a high workload today, and 300 innings were not unheard of then but are unthinkable now. If you are going to argue that it was because they aren’t throwing as many strikes today then the burden of proof is on you, and you’ve already undermined your own argument.
I don’t understand what you are talking about but yeah I guess you are right and I am wrong
My argument is the game has evolved in multiple ways. It’s not a matter of pitchers being soft and can’t go longer than guys in yesterday years. They don’t go longer because the game is played differently.
As the way pitchers pitched back then til now batters hit different from then til now.
Velocity is stressed from the gate now when just in the 90’s pitchers like Glavine, Maddux & Smoltz said they wouldn’t pitch to 100% effort until the 2nd or sometimes 3rd time thru a line up
Today guys are coming out the gate going 100% because they know they are only going thru the lineup 2-3 times
And I didn’t say pitchers of the 60’s & 70’s I said Seaver & Sutton because that’s who I heard talk about it
If memory serves me right Seaver said Ryan had was more 135-140 because he threw more fastballs and he got stronger as the game went on
I also remember hearing Tim McCarver talk bout Steve Carlton and say how efficient he was and could throw a complete game on less than 100 pitches anytime he wanted to
I have heard Maddux say that about himself too
Maddux has said there wasn’t s line up in baseball he faced that he didn’t think he could get thru a 2nd time thru the order in less than 30 total pitches
Pitchers now are lucky if they get thru an inning in under 20 pitches
Seaver and Sutton pitched most of their careers in the ’60s and ’70s. That was before relief specialization took hold. Both of them hardly ever pitched less than 200 innings in a season and often close to 300.
The average per inning pitch count is around 15. Seaver said his was around 135 per start, which just happens to be 9 * 15.
Sounds like something
Bill James should study!
ok I may just be tired or something but I am not understanding your argument against me.
In today’s game by most accounts a manager is looking at pulling a SP at around 100 pitches. That is because analytics say pitchers effectiveness dramatically fall off.
That according to your number is somewhere between 6 & 7 innings
That’s around 210-215 innings a year
According to your math a pitcher in Seaver’s era would pitch about 70 or so innings more a year
Guys back then were trained to have the mentality to go 9 years very game
Today guys are trained to go 5-6 there lies the difference in the amount of innings pitched between generations
My point is, starting pitchers back in Seaver’s day were expected to throw far more pitches than starting pitchers are today. The reason is less important than it being a fact.
Are pitchers less “efficient” today than they were before? Maybe, somewhat. But the major variable at work is the number of pitches they are allowed to make then vs. today. Mentality isn’t the issue, specialization is. The strategy now is to get seven from the starter, then go to a setup man, then the closer. Also arguably at work is the increased dollar investment in starting pitchers resulting in less tolerance for risking those expensive arms.
Seaver did throw about 70 more innings a year than the current averages for starters today. So that math works out like we should expect. I have not doubt the far better conditioned pitchers of today could throw 135 pitches in an outing, they are simply not asked to do it anymore.
It’s not about throwing more pitches then to now
It is just recent that the philosophy of pitching has changed.
It used to be pitch at about 70% and dial it up to 100% when you need to. Pitch more to contact and get guys to get themselves out and when you get to the point of needing to put max effort then do it
Nowadays they come out the gate pitching max effort to give their best stuff for as long as they can until turning it over to max effort guys coming out of the bullpen.
Like I said before go work out and put in max effort and see how long your recovery time is
Then work out at 70% and see how much longer & consistent your workout would be and how much less time it takes to recover
All I am saying is it’s not that these guys are babies or soft or anything else
It’s about philosophical differences in the eras of the game.
A guy throwing max effort in the beginning of the game at the age these young kids are coming up will never be able to put the ball where they want it with the movement they want
The ability to do that comes with years of honing their craft. Teams don’t have time for that they want immediate results
Also it trickles down to the younger kids in high school. The coaches down there want immediate results as well that’s why if a kid can throw 90 in high school or has a wicked slider or knee buckling curve they make them kids throw it til their arm almost falls off
The problem with pitchers nowadays is simple it’s a position that takes time to develop and we are in a result driven world that demands immediate results
I believe I’ve refuted all of these points already. If you want to respond to any of what I’ve said be my guest but I’m not going to repeat it.
I don’t believe you refuted anything
We agree to disagree
In my opinion you make no sense
& yes they could throw 135 innings but what will their velocity be at pitch number 120 or 130 ???
Generally speaking. If you have to tell someone “I refuted all your points,” you probably didn’t.
I don’t know Tatis what do you think did he refute all my points ????
I wonder if batter fouled off
hundreds of pitches per
game back then like they
do now!!??
Didn’t pitchers not throw
sliders back then?
Exactly
Back in the day pitchers used 2 things
Changed the eye level of the pitch from high to low low to high
Changed the speeds fastball changeup or change up fastball
Then the 3rd pitch would be some sort of breaking ball that would catch the batter off guard
No matter how good a guys breaking pitch was a batter would maybe at most see it once an at bat
It was chess your 1st & 3rd pitch would be setting a guy up for a pitch in their 3rd AB of the game because the SP planned on being in there
A guys 1st fastball he sees may be coming in at 90-91 after a couple of those and the batter thinks he got the pitcher timed bam a 94 mph fastball goes right past him
Nowadays guys are coming in throwing 95 from the rip & once the batters start being able to catch up to it then it’s time to take them out and put in a guy who can throw even harder
That is like checkers
Don’t disagree. Back in the 70’s you had pitchers like the Niekros and Wilbur Wood (who once started both halves of a double header) who threw junk – not fast but moved all over the place. Many of the hitters of today would break their backs chasing them, as they can’t hit a curve. Plus, most of the teams had 4-man rotations with a swing-man who could be inserted as a 5th starter for double-headers. Relief pitchers are no different – Mike Marshall pitched 387 innings in relief in 198 games over 2 years when he won and finished 2nd in the Cy Young. Not many 3-out saves then.
It was only a good deal in a vacuum. But, it took such a large portion of the payroll that they couldn’t fill out the rest of the team. Plus, you can’t sign anyone to another large contract with that one on the books. It was a mistake, and everyone knows it.
Which team did the Dback’s surprise signing of Greinke take him away from? Oh, that’s right the LA Dodgers. Hence your comment.
Everyone else in the baseball world says it was a good deal for Arizona. It just hurts too much to know there could have been a WS ring there somewhere if the Dodgers has retained Greinke.
I mean he’s right. The signing was a good signing in general. He’s not an ace, but he has more than fulfilled his contract. The problem we saw play out was a bad baseball FO who tried to speed up their window, but essentially closed it shut quickly. The portion paid to Grienke was significantly harmful, because of their prior mistakes. So there was basically no financial wiggle room and they somewhat depleted their prospect capital.
I’m also not sure Dodger fans care much about Grienke leaving to AZ. It didn’t really guarantee much of anything. He’s still a good pitcher, but it’s not as though his stuff plays well in the playoffs. We’ve seen what good teams, like the Dodgers, who are patient and forced him into the zone did to him in said WS push. He didn’t and hasn’t exactly shown to be the missing link. The Dodgers made the correct decision regardless if you feels it hurts to much. Which you seem saltier than Dodge.
Grienke’s stuff plays fine in the postseason. His work with the Dodgers in the postseason was excellent.
And the velocity decline hit. The Rockies forced him up, and chased him as they hit him around. The Dodgers forced him up, and he labored through 5 with an early exit. And it wasn’t as though he was fooling anyone. I like Grienke, but let’s not pretend his stuff is the same as it once was. He’s predicated on living below the zone now, and getting undisciplined teams to chase which tends to leave zero margin for error as it gets deeper into the playoffs. Let’s not pretend he is vintage Grienke. I’ll wear the pie if he shoves in the playoffs following DS, but I’m honestly not buying.
The Dodgers’ real mistake with Greinke was giving him an opt-out.
So you’re basing your entire argument on two games when everything else points to him being just as effective now as he ever was? Grienke was never reliant on velocity for his game. When he was a free agent Honeycutt said he believed Grienke was the kind of pitcher who’d age well and he wouldn’t hesitate to sign him into his late-30s. Seems Honeycutt knows something about pitching. I’d take Grienke on my postseason roster, especially if he was going to be 3rd in the rotation, as he will be very likely with the Astros.
I completely understand you’re argument, and I’m not disagreeing with you in a sense. He’s still a very good pitcher. There is no argument there, the difference being although he never relied on velocity it was still there. Which meant it still had to be respected when 93-94 was still there. It meant not only could he spot, he had the ability to live in the zone, and was able to keep teams off balance out of it. He was always a heady pitcher so there’s no doubt he can pitch into his late 30s.
My point was those two performances are his new normal. More so indicative of offenses locked in forcing him into the zone. Like I said I’ll be there to say I’m wrong, should he shove in the playoffs following the DS. I’m just of the belief AL teams are going to continue to force him up, leaving little margin of error, and going to take advantage. We’ve seen it before guys picking without being able to live in the zone. I think the perfect example was Ryu last year as his stuff faded late. The Brewers and Red Sox’s spit on his nibbling and forced him the zone. We saw that little margin for error that lead to the snowball effect. That’s just me. I don’t believe that Grienke was close to at all the missing piece in the Dodgers inability to win a championship.
It’s easy to get hung up in speculating over the outcomes of a short series or worse yet a single game but it’s equally easy to consider the possibility of a different outcome in 2017 with Grienke in the rotation instead of Darvish.
I’m judging him by the body of his work. Whatever he’s needed to do to adjust to declining velocity, the numbers say he’s done it pretty darned well. Kershaw is going through the same period of adjustment to the loss of the ability to blow hitters away with a fastball. The good and great ones do it. The ones who can’t retire early.
Dodgers have their starting C Will Smith as a result of Greinke leaving. Also SP has not been a major issue in the postseason other than the infamous world series game 7. Rich Hill has performed better in October than Greinke did
SP would have been even less of an issue for LA if Greinke hadn’t opted out.
Game 5 in the 2017 WS was pretty infamous too.
Well yeah but that was the most uncontrollable baseball game ever played. As far as analysis goes thats a game you just throw away and burn
The Diamonbacks had mostly good young low cost
players for most of Greinke’s contract. The
future looked bright…..
I agree with you Dodge,but at least they did get a great pitcher who took the mound every five days like Scherzer has.In that respect the current DBacks management can spin it into a good thing without too much hype.
It was a good signing and of course current management will say so because it was current ownership that brought the deal together. Stewart wasn’t even in town when the deal went down and La Russa was involved some but not like ownership.
foxsports.com/mlb/story/how-the-diamondbacks-lande…
I’m not a fan of Green as mgr of Pads. but would be a shame if the owners cut him as Pads are about to make a move in next year,or two. He may have impaired their move by a year, but still…………………………….Give him a chance one more year.
Let’s check the stats for innings pitched. Let’s go with the league leader and the pitcher that finished 10th that year..
2018 Innings Pitched:
1) Scherzer 220.2
10) Mikolas 200.2
1969 Innings Pitched:
1) Perry 325.1
10) Marichal 299.2
Warren Spahn threw 975 pitches in a 19-inning Spring Training complete game that took 1 hr 2 mins., then threw BP for 2 hours the next day while chugging Old Milwaukee and wearing a scratchy wool uni thicker than the dust bunnies under yer maw’s bureau.
So what. He made $700 a month. Disposable. These guys cost millions before they can legally drink. No use snapping their tendons until they’ve provided some return.
Different cost analysis altogether. So take Old Hoss Radbourn, complete games, along with Nolan Ryan and Juan Marichal and go find a Sears.
It comes down to this go to the gym tomorrow and work out at 100% and then see how many days it takes you to recover.
Then in a couple weeks start to work out everyday you can at 70% and see how many days you can go before you need a day off. Bet you can go a long time.
Yesterday year pitchers pitched at 100% when they needed to
Pitchers now go 100% out the gate
Glavine picked and chooses when he would dial a pitch up to 92-93. He may have done that once or twice a game.
These pitchers nowadays are throwing full blast thru a wall soon as they step on a mound.
It’s a totally different world to compare the old game of pitching to the new game of pitching. It comes down to your preference of what you like.
I personally would like for it to go back to the old game but it doesn’t seem like that is going to happen anytime soon.
…”go find a Sears.”
LOL!!!!!
Dennis Lin throws Andy Green under bus. Andy Green isn’t going anywhere.