5:21pm: Two team executives, Reds president of baseball operations Dick Williams and Brewers president of baseball ops David Stearns, expressed optimism Wednesday that the owners and players will hammer something out. Williams told Jim Day of Fox Sports Ohio that “both sides want to play,” interestingly adding that he believes an agreement’s “very close” (via C. Trent Rosecrans of The Athletic). Stearns said, “I firmly believe we are going to have baseball this season” (per Tom Haudricourt of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel).
3:43pm: The two sides are seeing eye to eye on expanded playoffs and the universal DH, Jon Heyman of MLB Network tweets. They’re also “close to agreeing on the all-important health protocols,” Heyman writes, but season length could still stand in the way of a deal.
2:45pm: One possible point of leverage for the MLBPA, per Rosenthal and Drellich (subscription required), is that the March agreement offers rather concrete language indicating that MLB cannot simply impose an expanded postseason format without agreement from the union. A May report from USA Today’s Bob Nightengale suggested that expanding the postseason to the oft-floated 14-team setup would increase projected television revenue from $777MM to roughly $1 billion.
Meanwhile, The Athletic’s Jayson Stark tweets that he’s heard some talk of pushing the potential start date back from the July 4 weekend to July 15, as the league and union continue their interminable staredown.
1:00pm: The latest, widely expected step in the exhausting back-and-forth between Major League Baseball and the MLB Players Association became official today, as the league has formally rejected the union’s proposal for a 114-game season with prorated salaries, Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic tweets. Moreover, the league has no plans to even extend a counter-proposal. The commissioner’s office has begun speaking with owners about implementing a shortened season, Rosenthal adds, and hopes to have similar talks with the union (rather than a negotiation regarding season length).
Owners contend that ommissioner Rob Manfred can seek to unilaterally impose a shortened season if the union won’t budge from its prorated salary demands, and it appears that’s where they’re leaning, per the New York Post’s Joel Sherman. Either a 48- to 54-game season with fully prorated salaries or an 82-game season at less than prorated salaries are under consideration.
The union can still push back on that, however; Rosenthal and Drellich wrote over the weekend that the MLBPA could point to a clause in the March agreement which states the league will make its “best efforts to play as many games as possible” as a point of contention against a league-implemented short schedule. Union chief Tony Clark could conceivably point to his side’s 114-game proposal as an effort to honor that language while contending that the league simply has not done so. As for any chances of the MLBPA accepting a 48- or 54-game season, those seem minuscule. The union wasn’t pleased with an 82-game schedule; nearly halving that hardly seems like a palatable alternative. Jason Mackey of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette tweets that one player described those proposed lengths to him as a “joke” and “absurd.”
All of this aligns with an ominous sentiment tweeted by SNY’s Andy Martino this morning, wherein he reported that there “has not been much dialogue” between the league and the players union. Sherman adds to that, noting that he’s “heard greater pessimism today” from both sides than at any point since these negotiation began.
There’s a bit more optimism on the health and safety guidelines, it seems; Martino writes in a full column that the two sides have made progress and believe an agreement can be reached. Might some productive talks in another area finally help facilitate a breakthrough in terms of player salary? Some speculate that to be the case, but it’s hard to be overly optimistic when neither side appears willing to give an inch.
[Related: HoopsRumors — NBA Expected to Approve 22-Team Return-to-Play Format]
The next chapter in this interminable saga unfolds against the backdrop of the NBA’s impending vote on its own return-to-play scenario. A vote to ratify that plan will come tomorrow and would bring basketball back on July 31. MLB seemed to have the opportunity to come back in early July and be the first major sport to give starved fans across North America some of the entertainment they’ve desperately craved. On the surface, doing so seemed like an opportunity to perhaps broaden the sport’s fanbase by attracting new fans (or luring old ones back into the fold) as the only game in town, so to speak. Instead, there’s increased doubt as to whether a season will be played at all.
At this point, the “good faith” negotiations that were oft-referenced in the March agreement are a distant memory. Both sides have issued proposals they knew to be nonstarters — twice, in the league’s case, although the revenue-sharing plan was a strategic leak rather than a formal proposal. Now, ownership appears intent on driving home the point that play will only resume under its terms.
i hate my father
This is beyond stupid now, what a joke this has become.
i say we all boycott baseball and quit paying these overpayed babies
I say the owners honor the players contracts. Pro rated contracts are fair for the players. The real money owners make are from the value of the franchise not from the year to year income and expenses. Otherwise there’s no reason to have teams in Miami, Tampa and Pittsburg
But the owner’s aren’t getting pro-rated money. They’re missing money from people in the stands, even for games that happen. I doubt they come to an agreement. Maybe pay full pro-rated but have full playoffs with a revenue split? idk
Ok so if you owned and ran a franchise say a restaurant. And somebody said pay all your employees a pro rated salary even though u have little to no income coming in because the money is in the franchise you would call them nuts. It’s not good business.
It’s not ok for a landlord to evict their tenant, the California senate is looking to pass a bill that would allow commercial tenants to cancel any commercial lease. Everyone has to give up something in this new world, the players are being selfish imo. I hate how we are attacking the rich in this country. Like it’s some horrible thing to be successful
I think you mean “they agreed to pay all your employees a pro-rates salary”…
The owners shouldnt have signed GUARANTEED contracts then.
MLB owners are billionaires and arrogantly assuming they won’t lose many fans. Then they’ll come back next year with some contrite pr lip service when attendance isn’t what they expected.
You cannot convince anti company knuckleheads that no to less money coming in means you just cannot meet every whim employees, especially of this day and age demand. Many people have no comprehension of business, or money sense beyond the hogwash they hear repeated on cnn daily.
Fire them all for breach of contract if there is a way, or lock them out if the owners want some kind of a season and call on Minor leaguers, of whom am sure enough would be more than glad to cross any lines made by the MLBPA.
This line by the union has gone on long enough. The good of the future of the game is far more important than these over paid spoiled brats.
Snoo48 don’t forget the millionaire players think the fans are stupid. The MLBPA was in on Astros fixing games and none of the players involved got banned for life. If the players of the association cared why not have those players banned for life or they refuse to play until it happens. Blake Snell told every fan that they are worthless and that him and MLBPA are important. Did MLBPA kick him out? Nope because they support his message that the fans are worthless. Honestly I hope they all go bankrupt
Johnny, seriously, do you think the moon landing in 1969 was fake?
From one who was alive and watched the ‘moon landing (more than can be said of 90%+ here). That’s yet another more modern steamer pile. nobody then thought anything of any landing being fake and i was alive then.. yet another later on libby contrived pile of doo-doo thought up for no other reason than lessen a wonderful thing this country did. Sound familiar?
I call BS. I was very much alive then and this was very much an active conspiracy theory at the time. It was one of many I remember hearing often growing up, also including the government hiding the truth about UFOs (remember Area 51 at all do you?), the CIA killed JFK, and the one about the pill that turned water into gasoline that the oil companies bought out and buried. Conspiracy theories will always be with us. All we can ask is that people in the position of responsibility don’t spread them for their own cynical purposes.
…what on earth are you all rambling on about?
Blue skies, find a rubber room and take Johnny Dubz with you.
ImAdude, you keep commenting on my posts. Just because you swing that way doesn’t mean I do. You really think the players are oblivious on concept of business or what cheating is? If ownership doesn’t have fans in the stadium they have a lot less revenue and for some teams they have terrible tv deals. The players want pro rated salaries but not at a real reduction just half.
About conspiracy theories. Who spreads them, who believes them, and why.
I bet he thinks the earth is flat, too LOL
We’ve stumbled off the sport (again) between ourselves Bluesky, but myself? We am pretty sure on oppo sides of the country and nothing I remember then, even as much as a dozen years afterward remember any landing as contrived, then where I’m from has always been conservative.
I DO remember the UFO thingie, same as with you also it seems, even when was stationed at San Diego several years after the moon landings.. heck, they were making movies about space aliens landing during the early 50’s and hidden in nevada weren’t they?
That’ll show ’em.
Agreed, the fan is the 3rd element to this and is always a treated as such.
What? What does any of this have to do with the players?
Season over. Baseball was almost knocked out for good in 1994. 2020 might be the final nail in the coffin. It’s a game play it and get paid very handsomely. Don’t bite the hand that feeds which boils down to the FANS.
The owners are saying that they cannot make ends meet without fans in the stands, yet they seem to be doing everything they can to ensure that there will be far fewer fans in the stands for years or decades to come
The players did a good job with their steroid scandal. The Astros scandal blew it all up that players knew about what was happening but didn’t say anything. The fact the players didn’t want a Pete Rose style ban for the cheating Astros speaks volumes of the corruption and deceitfulness. Blake Snell insulted every fan saying major leaguers lives are superior to them and MLBPA supported that message.
Dubz, not sure what the “swing that way” comment is supposed to mean? If you mean do I swing hard to the left like you, then no I don’t. Your conspiracy theories are comical. The fact that you care what Blake Snell or any athlete says is comical too. When will people wake up and realize these three important things about athletes? 1) they don’t care about you, the fan. 2) they live in fantasy land. 3) it is and always will be about the money to them.
I agree, play ball but drop the NBA crap, nobody watches it anymore.
good grief how about work together on a plan instead of the back and forth. 6 owners and 6 union reps in a room. make a plan. vote on it.
I like this.
We can have fans outside the room and not let them out until they figure something out.
My guess the is that no one would come out—ever.
Both sides are so self-centred that they don’t seem to realise that when either side tries to ‘win’ they both end up losing in the end.
Before now I thought there would be some kind of season, but I’ve lost all optimism and think we’ll be looking at a 2021 season at the earliest, and then a lockout the year after when the CBA is up.
That’s how things used to get done.
Arbitration here we come.
Both partied can just choose to sit out lol
Man, so disappointing. Baseball is in a nose dive. Thought the Astro’s debacle was the worse thing that could happen. But a cancelled season could rival that.
it would never come back
An entire generation—and therefore subsequent ones—would be lost.
The Astros cheating scandal was way worse. It would have been better to have no season than for the fanbase to completely lose confidence in the results on the field.
Astros cheating scandal worse than a guy going to Federal prison
I disagree. This has the potential to destroy the sport. The Astros cheating scandal pissed off a whole lot of people (and gave a few something to bring up in every single article for the next 20 years, like Big Papi) but it never had the potential to ruin the game. A lost season for everyone (and the resulting fallout) seems worse to me than one team cheating
KCJ, drama queen. Destroy the sport? Please stop. Steroids didn’t kill the sport. Gambling didn’t kill the sport. So trash cans banging won’t kill it.
MLB would rather kill baseball than give an inch
Both sides are being stubborn not seeing the damage they are doing to their collective brand.
Stop blaming the owners. BOTH sides are killing the sport.
However, what the players don’t realize is that without baseball, the owners will still be rich and buy into another industry. Meanwhile most of the players only have a high school education and will be working at factories, grocery stores, and car lots. And a lot of players will be back in Venezuela or the DR under much worse conditions than that. Sure there will be some players that succeed outside the sport, but it will be far less than 100% and 100% of owners will still be ultra wealthy without the game.
I’m not saying the players need to shut up and do whatever the owners say, but they need to realize that they have a lot more to lose than the owners. And a guy like Max Scherzer who has already banked enough money to never need to work again is not the guy that I would want fighting for young players that have not even started yet.
The owners have billions tied up in baseball and for some it’s the majority of their wealth. They need the players badly.
Badly is an overstatement.
lol both sides baby, lick those boots nice and clean
Agreed 100%. As unfair as it may seem, the owners will always have the upper hand because of their supreme wealth and well…being owners. It is funny when you always have the superstars in the various sports leagues speaking out saying what crappy deals they are presented with, in reality they don’t like it for them specifically even though it may benefit a majority of other players. All of these guys claim to be “pro union” all of the time, that is until the union’s Interests conflict with their own. Example is NFL CBA where big names spoke out against it even though it would raise minimum salaries and those right above which affects over 50% of players. It’s easy for those with millions in the bank to bluff, sit back and wait for a better offer, most players do not have that luxury. Especially since it came out that a majority of MLB players live paycheck to paycheck, the more you make the more you spend it appears with these guys. Again, I’m not advocating they accept any deal they’re presented with, it does need to be fair to both sides, however the top 5% of earners should not have a disproportionate amount of say in negotiations.
@hiflew I don’t think we’ll see players at grocery stores, etc for a while… most are pretty well off if they have not used their money very unwisely. Minor league players on the other hand, probably true that they will have to look elsewhere. Those guys really have an uncertain future suddenly.
I think no matter how senseless and damaging this may appear at the moment, there will be an overwhelming incentive on both sides to want to work together and negotiate, at some point, once the reality of a lost season sets in. Maybe I’m naive in hoping there might be one last urge to compromise before it is official. Perhaps this is the final stand for both sides that will result in no season in 2020, but I think especially if other sports get it together, we’ll see baseball in 2021 and going forward after that, hopefully. The real solution is to allow fans in the stands again, perhaps that won’t happen until 2021… but we can’t live like this as society forever without people becoming depressed out of their flipping minds because there is no joy in life at all while we allow this virus to separate us from one another and basically rule our lives.
Agree with the rest of your comments.
Who will be our Sotomayor and find that MLB imposing a short season after refusing to negotiate despite agreeing to make the “best efforts to play as many games as possible” constitutes an unfair labor practice?
Can you elaborate on this comment?
I give no fox
I believe it’s intended to be a backhanded dig on liberals under the veil of a baseball comment
I give no fox
I stand corrected. My apologies
After the strike that ended the 1994 season and shortened the 1995 season, the owners were set to start the 1995 season with replacement players but Sotomayor ruled against that plan and brought baseball back. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the two sides don’t come to am agreement and someone from the outside comes in to bring them together
Federal law on this is cut and dried. If the owners do not come back with a proposal for 82+ games they violate the agreement they made in March and they owe the players 100% of their salaries for 2020.
If they say play for what we offer in games and dollars or no season then they not only violate that agreement and are on the hook for 100% of the players salaries, it also would be considered a lockout during a CBA under federal law and the current CBA would be null and void. They would have to negotiate a new CBA before there could even be a 2021 season.
Manfred has shot himself in the foot on this one.
Thank you, Sotomayor
They would also be bypassing most of their expenses without a season.
Where did you find this tid bit??
Apparently MLB does not agree with this assessment or they would not be posturing the way they are currently. Not disagreeing with you but hope it does not end up in the courts. Still judges have a way of making things that are cut and dried not so cut and dried.
I feel like shooting myself for reading such an absurd comment.
It sounded authoritative and full of facts, so it must be right.
Which would mean they never come back until clark begs. and that clown wont beg
That might actually be for the best: One longer lockout versus one now and one later when the CBA expires.. The two sides should have been talking not just this season but CBA stuff anyway; especially things like service time issues, etc. are going to be particularly contentious.
No “cut and dried” federal law. The agreement has plenty of ambiguity including the “economic feasibility” reassessment for spectator-less games. Have you read the March document?
Uh, excuse me, but doesn’t baseball still have an antitrust exemption, so you might not be correct. It is left to be agreed upon by both sides., possible but not necessarily with arbitration
@PadsFan Surely you must know that a conditional offer is not the same as an offer. “82 games will be possible if” is not legally the same as “82 games will be possible.” Furthermore, the agreement from March is outside of the CBA given that the two sides are not contemplating a “championship season” as defined in the CBA. Therefore, a decision not to schedule games would not qualify as a lockout. A championship season was made impossible due to a force majeure event.
MLB had/has the right to cancel the entire season with no pay to the players if a national emergency is called ( it was called in March of course ). They already paid out 170 million, although they were not obligated.
Final stance is have an arbitrator in a neutral position make the call, both sides agree and its done..
there is absolutely a need for arbitration here. we can talk about how long it will take all we want, but if they moved to that first we would probably have an agreement by now.
Well the next liberal pro-union judge should fit the bill; one need not look very far for that.
i hate my father
MLB is going to be in a world of hurt if they don’t work this out quickly.
NBA is coming back and likely will be competing against MLB permanently too.
It would be interesting to see how much of MLB’s success is being the only game in town during the summer.
Basketball will likely occur, no?
that’s if you like the NBA, I’ll take baseball anyday
cancel season. way too risky still. look at kpb and theirb2 positive cases. This is basically like a strike to me as neither side looks good in this. The strike in what was it 93 94 I was too young to really care. now I find it asinine that billionaires and multimillionaires are fighting over money. There are so many other things that need addressed in this country before how many games are played and who gets how much money.
2 cases, oh God, the world is ending
and it is only the first day. who knows how many others are now infected.
@DTD_ATL 2 Cases does not determine a End of World event.
Still, it’s an asenine comment never the less
There’s no baseball this year.
Seriously, why is it so hard for people to come together on anything? The greed and selfishness in people always amazes me. We are in this world together.
we are in this world together but a vast majority of ppl do NOT think that way nowadays. It is all about me me me and that instant gratification.
No not really Scuba. Billionaires fighting with so called millionaires.
Billionaires will always win.
So called mIllionaires have nothing without a game. Why loss money?
The players ARE the game. Without them the owners have nothing. No TV contract, no MLB.tv for revenue. No games to be played. But they do have huge financial burdens they will have to continue to pay.
You and I are not paying MLB prices to see minor league players on the field, so there is no way to replace the MLB players.
I agree with you about scabs and it will not work ( the NFL failed when they tried it), but the Boras backed 114 game season coupled with the loophole so big you can drive a truck through it which would allow not playing and still getting a paycheck is unacceptable.i see it now Gerrit Cole’s wife is pregnant so that puts her at risk, thus, he can collect an $18m check from the Yankees without pitching. No thank you.
i hate my father
yep, that was the setup, it was a loophole for players to collect a full paycheck and not play still and a ton would of done it,
IT was actually just as insulting of an offer than what the owners proposed to the union.
You keep spouting off the same thing but unless you are part of that negotiation or can show me the actual contract that was negotiated you are talking out your @$$.
The players are NOT the game. The players are privileged to play the game for a living, but the game is far bigger than any of the players.
I was around in 1995 and there were a lot of people that were willing to watch replacement players that season. If every single MLB player never played again, there would be others to take their place and before too long, new stars would surface. It might take a while, the 94 strike didn’t really recover until the summer of 98, but it would eventually recover.
The owners would just declare bankruptcy, fold their teams, still be billionaires and go into some other industry. The players have far more to lose.
Exactly. I root for the name on the front of the jersey; not the back. I don’t care if guys like Trout, Yelich, Kershaw, deGrom, et.c are in those uniforms or if it’s my supermarket bagger on first, Walmart greeter on the mound, Abbot and Costello along with Bugs Bunny on every other position…I want baseball!
Players cone and go. They are nit the game. They are glorified carneys. Evidence: In five tears almost everyone on current rosters will be gone but we fans root for our team – whomever wears the uniform.
i hate my father
Are you kind of used to not getting invested into the player since once he becomes good and time to pay him he is dealt to another team? so all you really have is the name in front of the jersey.
In order to have replacement players ( a terrible idea) there would have to be a strike. Since the CBA expires at the end of the 2021 season that isn’t the case. If MLB decides to start up again, the players would come back under the original CBA unless both sides agree to modify the CBA. If the owners don’t let the players back, that’s a lockout and the players would get their full salaries. Which would really put the owners in a hole. There probably is an “Act of God” clause in the CBA, but most likely would need mutual agreement to modify. In other words, the Commissioner can’t unilaterally impose standards.
@I hate my father,
No. I just follow the name on the front of the jersey. Even if we kept many of the players that we’ve had over the first two decades of our franchise, it’s like the post above said – players come and go. Guys like Gary Sheffield are retired; Jeff Conine retired; Kevin Brown, Al Leiter, Charles Johnson, Edgar Renteria are all retired. Craig Counsell is managing the Brewers. Josh Becket, AJ Burnett, Carl Pavano, Dontrelle Willis, Juan Pierre, Luis Castillo, Derek Lee, Mike Lowell, Ivan Rodriguez, etc. retired. Miggy Cabrera is at the end of his career. Yelich and Ozuna are gone. Yankees are stuck with Stanton’s contract. Jose Fernandez had a tragic end. They are all gone.
I look to the next crop of players and our quest for championship #3, which if we get it before the Blue Jays, Mets, and Royals, we take over has having the most championships by an expansion team. If we win our third championship before the Phillies and Mets, we surpass them among the NL East teams and, if we do that before the Braves next one, we can top for the most championships by the current NL East teams.
I’m good. I root for the team on the back of the jersey. We don’t hold parades for individual players. We hold them for teams.
I think this would have been settled already if there were not for this CBA expiring after next season. A lot of this posturing on both sides is as much about those negotiations as it is about this season.
Goodbye, baseball. See you next year…I hope.
I have a hard time believing how badly this has been handled on both sides. Can we please replace both Manfred and Clark?
Manfred not the sharpest knife in drawer.
Strings attached to his arms, legs, and head by owners.
Get Reinsdorf to the table with Clark.
Then we will see who wins.
the commissioners in every sport are puppets of the owners, and if they aren’t they’ll be replaced by someone who is.
Manfred can’t “impose” anything. He agreed to as long of a season as possible with or without fans. He cannot legally renege on that agreement. If he does, the players have no obligation to play and he cannot bring in replacement players.
He must bring forth a plan that pays players a prorated portion of their regular salary of at least 82 games of the players can say take a hike.
Manfred is killing baseball. .
Can’t have “as long a season as possible” if one side refuses to lose billions in the process. It takes two to tango, my friend.
Manfred has no choice. He has already sent a formal proposal for 82 games. He cannot impose less games than that. SO, either he:
A – comes to the table with a proposal for 82 or more games that meets MLBPA needs.
B – cancels the season which is a lockout in the eyes of federal law and nullifies the current CBA and entitles the players to 100% of their salaries for 2020 since he did not adhere to the March agreement..
Those are his only options.
You’ve hit the nail on the head. In the middle of a CBA, one side can’t unilaterally change the rules without agreement from the other side. As for the owners, they aren’t going to open up camps until they get some sort of concession from the players. That’s why the idea of replacement or minor league players is a complete non starter. The owners can’t lock the players out since that would violate the CBA. Frankly, it’s irrelevant if Mike Trout, Manny Machado, or Chris Davis is overpaid. So if the players are willing to come back, owners have little choice. As absurd as it sounds, not that I advocate it, the owners last hope is that there is a spike in COVID cases and there can’t be a season because of safety purposes. Which none of us wants
Curious where you get your information.
Not sure if that was directed at me or Pads Fan, but it’s Federal Law. A collective bargaining agreement can only be changed by agreement of both sides. If what was agreed to in March is to be believed both sides agreed to pro rated salaries. If the owners attempt to renege on the agreement, the agreement in March would be null and void and the players would be entitled to their full salaries. The owners have painted themselves in a corner. If, as it appears, the March agreement does not say anything about games with no fans, they pretty much shot themselves in the foot. So it’s irrelevant what “side” you are on, the law is the law
The owners have floated that there is language in the agreement that it’s contingent on there being fans in the stands. If that language is there and there aren’t fans, the agreement isn’t operative.
But they agreed that the terms weren’t applicable if there weren’t fans? So the agreement is null and void unless the world suddenly opens up again.
If the agreement is null and void, then the original CBA would be in effect. In that case, the players would be entitled to their full salary, not pro rated.
With the news that two Japanese players tested positive, I could imagine the owners just saying that there is no safe way back this year.
Either one thanks! Appreciate the information as I did not know that.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
I don’t think two confirmed cases means much of anything. For most, the virus isn’t even a bad cold …. .
I assume that the original CBA contains an “act of god” clause that went into effect when governments prohibited any gathering over 10 people.
However there is no original cba entitling them to their full salary in case of national emergency and one has been declared!. however the original contracts as media stated they are in the know about allow the pandemic (which has been declared a national emergency) to cancel the season with no pay The media also reported that there are emails proving the owners side (between the union lawyer and MLB official) about the fans being in the stands end. The media did state the language that then was stated allowed the owners their position. The whole thing is a mess but it is what it is,,,
All negotiations can be changed nothing is set in stone. Its called renegotiating a contract happens all the time, same in baseball. The basic terms is amendment to the offer that was agreed to
If the players see the season as merely shortened and not otherwise affected by the pandemic, their request for prorata salary would be perfectly reasonable. Unfortunately, that isn’t the case. Baseball revenue will be dramatically reduced.
But if the owners are going to lose money can easily argue that it is not possible to play a longer season because of those losses. And does ‘as long as possible mean they should also extend into November and play neutral site games as well? It is just not that easy.
Why cancel the season when we all tune into their scripted reality tv dispute ??
Tiny, Old Timer here, I like that comment!
With the CBA expiring next year, they could potentially lose this year and part if not all of next year. If that’s the case 2022 won’t need socially distanced seating at stadiums, it will look like a Chargers game.
If the owners do not negotiate in good faith a season of 82 or more games, this would be considered a lock out by Federal labor laws and would nullify the current CBA. The new CBA would have to be negotiated before there could be a 2021 season.
Pads Fans, why do the owners have to accept what the players say or have to pay them for 162 games? Even Scott Boras who negotiates like the Don Vito Corleone “Offer you cant refuse” style does not claim that.
I could see no baseball in 2021 either. Why? If I am an owner and I lose a season, I am not taking a chance of a strike in 2022. Might as well lock them out of Spring Training.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
It’s not like the virus won’t be around next year, Do people really think it will be safer next year to attend a ballgame than it is right now?
If the don’t play this season, MLB may never come back:
2021: Virus, no fans, no agreement
2022: No CBA, no games.
2023: Some sort of new baseball league. Probably similar ownership with no MLBPA.
The players have far more to lose than the owners. At the end of the day the owners are still billionaires. Meanwhile, minor league players live on $400 a month and college and HS probably won’t play next season either (well, maybe in a few places).
Not Pads fan, but he is correct in citing federal labor law. A collective bargaining agreement cannot be altered unless labor and management both agree. And the players did agree in March to reduce their salaries to games played. This isn’t anybody’s opinion, this is federal labor law
I’m sorry but that’s got to be just about the silliest comment of the day. The team owners have billions invested in their franchises. They are owned by corporations with fiduciary responsibilities to their investors and partners who invested with expectations of income and equity value. Treating billions lost as if it was a few nickels lost under the sofa cushions, even if it was sensible business (which most certainly is not!) is a great way to get sued. Then we’re really having fun.
no, you don’t have a clue what you are talking about. The owners can simply cancel the season. It isn’t violating federal law Mr Armchair Lawyer. When the final settlement is for less than 82 games or cancelled, I want you to come back here and write “I’m a know nothing rube” 100 times.
I cannot fathom why the owners won’t stop this nonsense and play ball. This is pure insanity.
The MLB needs new leadership.
Why is it a sign of bad leadership to decline to lose billions of dollars?
They can either lose just part of their revenue or all of their revenue.
Either way they lose billions.
Here are the key points.
In the March agreement with the players, the owners agreed to play the most games possible They already proposed 82 games. They cannot come back with less than that. If they do the players are under no obligation to play.
If the owners cancel the season, they have then also violated the agreement they made with the players in March and owe them 100% of their salaries for 2020.
Cancelling the season would amount to a lockout during a CBA under federal law which would nullify the CBA. The owners would have to re-negotiate a new CBA before there could even be a 2021 season. After how they have treated the players, the ONLY indispensable commodity in baseball, the owners can expect a huge fight for a new CBA.
when a billionaire claims he’s losing$$. It means nothing. Tb we y can write it off.
The owners could easily come back with less than 82 games since the union rejected that proposal, burning some clock. More clock will be burned as the owners try to agree on a new proposal. The union will burn more as they ponder and ultimately reject any proposal. Only so many games on the clock, and both sides are letting them slip away.
Smokin Joe Charboneau
Pads Fans, do you have access to the actual agreement and do you specialize in labor law? I’m not saying you’re wrong (though if I had to place a bet, I’d say you are), but no one else “in the know” is reporting anything like this.
A couple of points: The owners have offered 82 games with a different pay schedule or 50 with the same pay schedule.
You only write off loses when you have income to write it off against, daaaa
The long term losses vastly outweigh whatever short term ones there would be from coming to an agreement. Instead of negotiating in good faith, ownership would rather blow up the game.
They’re not “losing” millions of dollars. They’re just not set to make as many billions in profit. They’re merely using this as a ploy to try and gain public favor for their real battle: the next CBA. If this season is cancelled, it’s 100% on the owners’ hands, because it’s likely what they want. A sizeable portion of fans will blame the players, for reasons I can’t understand- and when they go to that table again, the pressure will be enormous.
disagree its on the MLBPA and Union if the season is cancelled
Maybe they don’t want to lose a great deal of money?
This is just sad.
Instead of trying to work out a deal, they’re going to focus group what is the most insulting, sure to turn down offer they can make and still present it to the public as the Player’s fault.
Thought I never would see the day where Gary Bettman is the level-headed, longest-tenured Big 4 commissioner.
But here we are.
Gary Bettman is one of the best commissioners a pro sport has ever had. Up there with Rozelle, Stern, etc.
The seal clubbers will never admit it, but…it’s true.
The damage they’ve done makes 1994-95 look like nothing. If there isn’t a season, all anybody’s going to remember going into next year is this preposterous world serious of greed we’re witnessing.
If there is a 2020 season, it’s going to a cheap drama soaked sham. It’s not going to feel like legit baseball. It’s not even going to rise to the level of a bad exhibition.
Whatever the result is, it’s going to be an unmitigated disaster. There is absolutely nothing they can do to fix it. And it all could’ve been avoided.
that’s because its been so long since then. 25 years from now this will be just as much of a distant memory.
As Darkside said, fresh wounds always hurt the most.
I don’t agree. In the 90s casual fans came back to a degree for Ripken, and then especially for Sosa and McGuire. That’s not going to happen this time. There are no iron men anymore and there won’t be a home run race for a long time. Frankly, other than retirement tours for players like Jeter and Ortiz virtually all of MLB’s big stories for the past decade have been negatives.
Look, I don’t want to be a pessimist. I’m a die hard fan, and I’ll be watching when ever it comes back no matter what (which might make me a hypocrite, but whatever), but the sport has been hemorrhaging casual fans for years, and this is going to make it worse. Maybe a whole lot worse.
its hardly hypocrisy, you bring up good points. i just think baseball is set up in a way that is generally sustainable as long as no one tries to bring it down. die-hard fans will stay or come back quickly. casual watchers would seem to be the biggest change, but casual fans probably care less about this then most do tbh. baseball has always been popular as a passtime as well as a sport, and as long as it stays fundamentally the same it still serves this purpose. this group os transient anyway, but i dont think a lack or baseball in 2020 means baseball loses that passtime appeal for 2021 and beyond. the real loss is the middle class of baseball fans, but to be honest its hard to tell if they really exist in any great numbers anymore. they would seem to be pushed away the most by this as people who are invested but not entrenched in their love for the game.
If there is no season, the players collect $170 million and the owners lose money.
If there is an 82-game season, the players collect even more money and the owners lose more.
What logic are the owners missing? If anything, it seems that the players feel they have a stronger hand and can force owners to increase their losses. However, there was a clause in the agreement that players agree not to sue if the season were cancelled, plus some vague language about reconsidering the deal if fans were not permitted into the stadiums. The phrase “as many games as possible” favors the players, subject to the owners agreeing to play at all. It is basically up to the owners to declare their terms and the MLBPA to agree to play, or allow the season to be cancelled.
If there is no season because the owners did not propose a season of 82 or more games with the players getting paid a prorated amount based on the number of games then the owners have violated the March agreement and they owe the players 100% of their salaries for 2020.
The owners certainly knew that there would be no games in front of fans when they signed that agreement in March because they had already proposed options to play without fans, so they can’t claim they didn’t know when they signed that agreement that they would be losing money.
They have already sent a formal proposal to the players for 82 games so they can’t claim that only a season of less than 82 games is possible. If they bring forward something less than 82 games with the players being paid for their service on a prorated basis based on games played, then they violate the terms of that March agreement.
All wrong based on my understanding of the situation
All American Johnsonville Dogs
Look Koalamu or however you spell your other username.
Just because you repost the same incorrect facts with multiple accounts doesn’t suddenly make them true.
Ya, but those proposed 82 games were stipulated on having enough testing and being able to play games safely, the owners could easily come back and say that playing games in a safe environment is not feasible.
OK sue me it would take five years in court to settle the claim if then. Billionaires are not stupid they will sue if necessary.
Don’t bother with 48-54 games. I really hope baseball loses a large chunk of business and revenue because of this the next few years. The stubborn owners and the players are missing out on a huge opportunity to be the first sport back so to hell with the both of them. I’ve certainly learned that I don’t need baseball to have a full and enjoyable summer. But mark my words – if the season is cancelled, they will probably point to some COVID-19 reason as to why in order to save face and will give us the ‘we tried our best’ routine. If they do, that will be an even larger insult!
Millionaires arguing with millionaires while much of the nation is unsure if they will have a roof over their head or food on their table……. MLB and the players are so out of touch with the fans
MLB is trying to gut the CBA after a decade of stealing money from players from the draft to free agency. If your boss did this to you I doubt you’d just say “Sounds good to me, skip!”
My boss is named Skip.
At an average salary of over $4M per year, you’re damn right it would sound good to me. See, there’s a time and a place to make a stand. In the midst of all this turmoil, this is NEITHER. Shut up and take your millions, and give the fans something to be happy about.
This is exactly when you take a stand. You let the owners give you a shot to the chin, and you’ll already be wobbling when they start looking for the KO.
That the average, which is heavily overweighted by the big contracts. The median is a far more meaningful number. It’s $1.5M.
considering the season is only seven months even $1.5M is a lot.
Compared to what, other pro athletes? And the point is the mean salary is three times higher than the more realistic number. The reason they get what they get is they are the best at playing the game, and that’s who we are prepared to pay to watch play. And keep in mind only a small percentage of pro players even get to the majors. Most of them toil away in the minors for poverty wages and many of those who are promoted get cups of coffee in the majors and are done.
The NBA already murmured about starting seasons on Christmas to avoid competing with football; well, sounds like an even better plan when you can play in July and August against at best a mortally self-wounded MLB.
Lets just bring in the AAA players for the 2020 season. If MLB players decide to play, great. If not, lets do what is BEST FOR THE GAME, and get some baseball on the field. This is getting beyond ridiculous.
You are going to pay MLB prices to see minor league players? I dont think so.
There won’t be any paid attendance by fans in 2020. All on TV.
looking like there wont be any games for tv….
no minor league player would be crazy enough to be a major league scab. Remember ’94, some of those guys who stepped in as replacements were shunned and blackballed by union players.
And yet some of them, like Ron Mahay, still enjoyed lengthy major league careers. No superstars, but most of the players that crossed were highly unlikely to ever make the majors otherwise anyway.
and many of those guys did well enough for being so called “scabs.” also, im sure owners dont care about how the unions sees a player he signs. if anything, an ununionised player is a plus from the perspective of an owner.
Why can’t they bring in a mediator? Bring both sides to the table.It is a labor dispute, right?Quit dragging it out.
i hate my father
mediator will take months to decide, think about it, it took months to decide on a single player grievance case and now asking them to hear it out and and review documents on both sides of a multi billion dollar fight within 2 weeks? Not going to happen.
No it would not a mediator brings two sides together and mediates to hopefully come to a resiltution. You’re thinking of a arbitrator.
This is a fake pandemic issue, not a labor or financial issue.
If it’s not a labor issue than what is it ?
its a labour and financial issue whether or not the pandemic is fake as you claim. no need to make a false claim to take a shot at the pandemic.
Elvis, Tupac, JFK and Biggie are all sitting in a room somewhere taking it all in, too, right? Smh…
MLB is on life support. And it sure seems to me like it’s on purpose. Manfred needs to go. Tony Clark needs to go. And we need a comish that actually has a set of balls. Otherwise baseball will sink further until it’s dead and it becomes mls with 37 fans that follow it.
Big daddy Baseball needs a commish that is not a liar.
So a robot then? Name me one person that never lies.
A commish no matter who it is, is paid by the owners. So changing him doesn’t matter. The players need to hire a high power labor attorney
Much like Marvin Miller.
baseball will be back next year and 99.5% of fans protesting will be back within a year or two, same as happened with 94.
This is all just a pathetic joke.
The players and owners are both a disgrace to the game.
These players will never be able to sign those big contracts again if half the game fan base tells you to F off. People will not come back right away look at what happen in 94-95 league lost a ton of fan appeal.
Player demands to be paid as if the season is merely shortened and not otherwise affected seem ridiculous to me.
Baseball alienating their fan base, again. News to owners at some point like the economy it will take years to get your fan base should that matter.
If you didn’t see this coming two months ago you had blinders on. I’ve said it for awhile – the economics don’t add up when there’s so much reliance on local ticket sales and local media revenue. Maybe the good news here is that owners will finally wisen up and implement real revenue sharing among themselves.
I was drinking with my old friend Billy Shakespear when the announcement came down. He had a great comment:”A pox on both their houses”.
I’ll bet you were using your paper for rolling doobs instead of writing too…but i can’t see too good.
Billy does like his ganja……gets it from some guy named Hamlet…Billy always asks him, “Doobie or not doobie”…….
Notice the narrative if the article? Ommissioner , not Commissioner Manfred….Freudian Slip or misspelled?
I am at a point where i say screw all of you, let NONE of you make money this year. Leave us a legacy of stubborness and greed on both sides, so we remember it all when football camps open in July.
IF football camps open… those dang governors haven’t agreed to nothing yet.
I really hope they can work it out, but i’m not getting my hopes up. And then we have the next cba negotiations coming up too…
The proposed schedules are far apart too. I’d say: Go for an 82 game schedule starting July 1 and ending in September. Plan a few double-headers so that there are some off-days.
82 games split as follows:
– 12 games against teams in your own division (48)
– 3 games against other teams in your league (30) 3 games all in one set either at home or away. i.e. All Eastern division teams play at home vs West teams and on the road vs Central teams, while Central teams play at home vs East teams.
– 4 games against an interleague rival (Mets-Yankees, A’s – Giants), 2 at home and 2 on the road (4)
If this is scheduled well, travel can be kept to a minimum (only 1 or 2 road trips to other regions) And then a regular postseason can be played starting in the first week of october.
In other news. Water is now wet
Forgive me if I’m misunderstanding, but aren’t the players stepping over dollars to pick up dimes at this point?
Man, with declining popularity, this was baseballs chance to be the only sport going.
i hate my father
They would be competing with the NBA now and NBA is likely going to go Christmas opening day to Mid to late August going forward too.
MLB is in some serious trouble and they are two blind with their power struggle to see it.
Why would a 54-game regular season followed by expanded playoffs be worse than no season at all?
How much does this suck? Let me count the ways….in no particular order
1.) the owners
2) the players
3) the MLBPA
4) the Commissioner’s office
5) and we the fans because we are so STUPID in supporting MLB anymore.
Throughout this entire I process I kept hearing on radio shows and reading that “sources” said despite the differences, they were positive the players and MLB would figure this thing out. For the first time I really doubt we are going to have a season.
At this point the only thing happening is alienating fans. Very bad by both sides. Starting to get disgusted. 82 games with full prorated salaries is the obvious middle ground here. Both sides are being babies at this point. I understand each argument but they need to come together or they will quickly dwindle in popularity even more than they already are.
Screw all of them!
Plenty of schadenfruede here for certain club owners like the Mets.
There will be no winners here.
Frankly, if I can’t go to the ballpark I’d rather not have a season. I could live with 82 games on tv but the idea of even fewer games is a joke. I have no sympathy for the owners here. With few exceptions they have taxpayer funded venues with sweetheart deals. No disclosure of finances The players will be taking the risks. Granted they are well paid but the owners the culprits here.
The owners should turn their focus on restoring the minor leagues first and foremost.
They do not have to hassle with a union to do so. Plus they will have future players. The loss of the minor leagues would be a bigger loss than a MLB season.
The owners focus was on decimating the Minor Leagues before all this and now they’ve also gotten rid of most of the draft to take it one step further. Be outstanding or stay in college are the paths now.
MLB is trying it’s best to become the Blockbuster Video of pro sports.
Really big for years…and then, just gone.
Far bigger than Blockbuster. Blockbuster was just a blip on history. I’m thinking a better example would be Sears. HUGE in the early 20th century. One of the biggest companies in the would through the 50s and 60s. Slowly heading downhill from the 70s through the 90s. Horrible mismanagement and extremely poor decisions make that once unstoppable juggernaut into a much smaller company eventually leading to its demise.
In terms of how long baseball has been around, Sears is a better comparison, yes.
But, Sears has been dying for decades. Slowly. Painfully. K Mart-ully.
Blockbuster was huge and then just gone in a blink. A few years of Netflix and they all became Goodwills or 24 hour gyms.
On paper (before coronavirus) MLB was thriving at the surface level, but with horrific demographics lurking beneath the surface. MLB could disappear just as fast.
The owners seem to not know this or not care about it.
I can’t wait to see arbitration eligible players roll in next year and the MLB team is offering them 25% less than the salary they were going to make this year due to lost and lower revenue. Mookie gets offered an AAV of $20 mil….these morons can’t figure out how to cut a multi billion dollar pie!
Beldar J. Conehead
Now there are 29 more teams to hate as well as the Astros.
You selfish a holes…so many are without jobs, rioting all over and the least you could do is suck it up, make a boatload of money and entertain the masses…you greedy sobs
MLBPA doing it’s best to be bigger douches than the Asstros….
Both sides are expert negotiators, we all know that. And we’re at least a week from the REAL deadline, ok? 90%-95% chance a deal is done and there is baseball — in a format that not necessarily ANYONE, including fans, is happy with. And with processes like this it’ll get done probably at the final hour. Dont get lured in and be played by the daily chess moves by these ass clowns. Too early for that.
Come on, counter something back
Here’s a counter offer: pro football rumors. I will have to change my handle name before commenting, however
Man, this sucks.
The only positive I can take out of this is, by the time they sort this out, they’ll have time for about a 30-game schedule with about 16 Playoff teams. That gives the Marlins a shot for the 2020 World Series Championship as we beat the White Sox in 7 games, after beating the Padres in the NLCS.
MVPs = Jesus Aguilar and Tim Anderson
Cy Young Awards = Carlos “Wild Thing” Estevez and Dylan Bundy
Totally credible season when all this happens.
Love this. Go Marlins!
To quote the old movie, Revenge of the Nerds, “It’s gonna be a great year!”
The only positive I can take from this is that, for the first time in a long time, we’re this far into the season and the Padres are still in playoff contention. It could be our year! Haha
Go Padres! My Marlins will see you in the NLCS. We’ll go 7 games unlike the ALCS where the White Sox will beat the Rangers in 5 games.
Completely credible playoff runs…even if there is no chance in Hades that we repeat in 2021…unless it’s another shortened season!
There is an obvious solution but do the owners, players, Players Association and agents want it? There is no way the season is legitimate if teams best players sit out. I mentioned Cole before. The Yankees will not be contenders if he and others like him can sit out and still get paid. If that is the case, why should Hal Steinbrenner write out $18m checks for nothing. Unless it is someone like Carracco who had Cancer that loophole must go or simply cancel the season
What ever happened to Bowie Kuhn’s “In the best interest of the game” Dead and buried like he is?
Why don’t they just mutually agree to push the season back to next April and tell everybody it’s still 2020. With this country’s current intellectual level, at least half the fans would believe it.
I love this too. Get the Associated Press on the line. The players And owners have agreed that the 2020 baseball season will start March 31, 2021 !!!
i hate my father
It would work great if the union did not realize what hit them and their service time is based on the 2020 season being played.
No, just no! We’re still on the hook for the final year of Wei Yin Chen’s contract. It’s ending this year…season or no season! We can spend $22 million on a whole bench and bullpen of guys that stink up the joint instead of just one.
These rich babies need to pull their heads out of their asses. They are at a massive cross roads and if they end up with a 60 game season they will lose so many fans it wont be funny.
Turn out the lights, the party’s over. Now, let’s get a new “baseball” commissioner to replace the guy who seems bent on inventing a new game.
Remarkably tone deaf. No baseball this year.
Major League Baseball Quits on America!
The stench of bad faith is all over this one. This isn’t hard. There has to be a number where both sides lose, but not so much as they can’t bear it. All over America, there are businesses that are staying open with fewer customers to show continuity, and their owners are make less, or nothing. Their employees are taking cuts in pay and hours. Because that’s reality. If the owners insist on making a profit, there won’t be a deal. If the players insist on so much salary that the owners will lose gigantic amounts of money, there won’t be a deal. Somewhere in between is the answer. Or not, and shut it down.
Quite Forrest: “Stupid is as stupid does.”
This is a power struggle, and about money of course. If the owners agree to the players union’s proposal, they’ve relinquished some of their power. They don’t care about integrity of the sport if personal victories don’t come with it. Nitpicking over how many games will be played just to be difficult, and not agreeing to at least prorated pay shows their lack of character.
While I generally side with the players on this (if you play 82 games you should get paid for 82 games, not less) and I think the owners are being greedy and deceitful in their demands, the MLBPA does have to take some responsibility and find a way to be the bigger man so to speak. Both sides need to realise that there can be no winners in this, only losers, if they don’t work out a fair deal and get playing again. If they both keep trying to ‘win’ over the other side, then baseball is going to have a bad time in the long run.
No counter tells me a lot. Owners suck! Play 100 games and compromise already!
If you are someone who bought into this stupid “pandemic” and still wear a mask like it’s a part of your wardrobe you have zero right to comment on this. You are a major part of the reason this is happening. Go find a bubble to live in and be scared for your life.
That is not true. My job requires it. It is a mask or no work.
dynamite drop in monty
Lol imagine being so brainless.
Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds?
My job is mask (unless I’m at my desk) or work from home. I’m going to choose the mask. Businesses have a right to require masks for entering, same as they can enforce a dress code.
So more than 100,000 people have died, far more have been hospitalized, and WE are a major part of the problem? By the way does the First Amendment only apply to pandemic deniers like yourself? Your knowledge of science corresponds to the first 3 letters of your username.
FWIW probably a lot of these agenda-driven disinformation posts are made by bots. Twitter found around half were on their platform. No reason to think it’s any different here.
We didn’t buy into it, we were forced into it. Try going into a store where food is sold without one. Congrats on the stupidest post of the year.
Arse got his degree from TrUmP University School of Medicine.
You should be forced to meet the families of the over 100,000 Americans who have died from “the fake pandemic.” and have to apologize for your depraved indifference to human life. You are an example of what is wrong in this country, and why so many people are protesting in the streets for the past nine days.
Looks like Arse1402 had his ass handed to him
2020 Player Pay = annual salary/162 x number of games played
Your comment = definition of pro rated.
It’s fairest. But the owners are all claiming they can’t afford to be without fans in the seats for even half a season. *IF* there’s a season, I’m guessing we end up somewhere around 85% of their pro-rated salaries.
dynamite drop in monty
That’s a good start for you. At least a part of your body is functioning.
The question is which end of his body did it come out of?
So it really is all about money then? Since season length really is just how much the players will get paid
Of course it’s all about the money. I’m glad they seemed to have ironed out details on health protocols, the DH, and expanded playoffs, but they’re still very far apart on the issue that matters by far the most to them.
It has always been about money. They should have 82 games full pay. It should not be 50 or 114 games with opt outs and still being paid.
If Manfred had brains and stones, he’d just impose an 82-game schedule. Late as they’re starting, it’s reasonable. Problem is, I think owners would lock the players out if they won’t take less money. That’s something Manfred can’t stop.
I’m shocked, shocked to find that it’s all about the money.
Cancel the season for every one’s health. Notes below show the Covidvirus will shut down the season anyway.
“Furthermore, Tim Brown of Yahoo! Sports reports MLB players returning from other countries will not have to quarantine for two weeks as recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. For all intents and purposes, players can return to the U.S. and rejoin their team right away. There are no immigration or quarantine hoops to jump through, for better or worse.
MLB players returning from other countries is one major logistical issue that is now a non-issue, apparently. There will be countless other logistical problems to solve between now and spring training though. How do teams travel, what do we do about the All-Star Game, so on and so forth.”
Teams will largely be isolated from other people. The death rate overall is around 1%, and that includes the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions. For athletes in the prime of life, they’re not in any serious danger. The older skippers might be, but they’ll all be checked regularly. The lack of fans due to virus concerns (or rather, the owners’ greed) is more likely to kill the season than someone on a team getting sick.
The players are insisting on being able to be with their families. I believe this could prove to be the sticking point, and perhaps somewhat dangerous, since they could have it and be asymptomatic, which many many younger adults have been proven to be.
There are simple ways to do this. Take The Yankees. They can do one road trip to Atlanta Miami and Tampa Bay and that ends the Southern portion. One to Baltimore, Washington and Philadelphia and the last one to Toronto Boston and Citi Field ( Mets), and the teams can come to Yankee Stadium
One would hope that the reason the players returning from other countries won’t need to be quarantined for 2 weeks is because they’ll be tested upon arrival and then quarantined for the 3 days or whatever it is pending results of that test.
Neither side will budge and inch? That’s funny. Ownership just took back a couple of feet.
stan lee the manly
If length of the season is all that needs to be decided, they are going to play. I think this is much better news than a lot of people think.
Owners are claiming that they’re losing money every game if there are no fans in the seats. Their best interest is as short a season as possible, while the players want as long a season as possible. There’s not a scenario that provides both sides with what they want here. And with the number of games each is proposing, they’re very far apart still.
For the first time, I now genuinely believe we won’t have a season at all.
Angels & NL West
There are lots of twists and turns in any negotiation. One day things look great. The next it looks like there is no hope. This is especially true of parties with a contentious past such as MLB and MLBPA.
Until we move closer to a deadline, we are subject to headline risk meaning high highs and low lows. Once a real deadline nears, clearer heads prevail and deals get done.
No matter how bleak it looks today or tomorrow, all that matters is that ultimately both sides want a deal which appears to be the case here.
My crystal ball says we play baseball in 2020 though I believe the start date will be later than July 4.
Major League Baseball is over.
The 2020 season would already qualify for a big asterisk next to it even if it were to commence right away. An early July start would be the soonest one could begin with an agreement in the next week or so. Some owners reportedly want a 50 game regular season regardless while the players were pushing for one up to 114 games that wouldn’t finish until Halloween. I’d be OK with a season that was a minimum of 82 games or half a usual one. That at least lines up with a normal NBA or NHL season.
The 50 game season would be ludicrous, especially followed by an expanded playoff that might last nearly as long. Teams typically play around 30 games during spring training not including ‘B’ games and those involving college teams. At this point in time, if an agreement can’t be worked out by MLB and the MLBPA I say screw them. I’ve already adapted to an April and May without baseball and could easily stretch that out for the entirety of 2020. Even if a compromise can be reached shortly there is no guarantee that the the regular season or playoffs can be completed during the COVID-19 pandemic. A resurgence in the outbreak is entirely possible by late summer or early fall with the initial restrictions being eased or even totally lifted in some areas of the nation. This already happened in Japan in April after they eased up on their stay-at-home response. They finally commenced their spring training recently and two of their players tested positive for COVID-19 yesterday. The 2020 season would already be an aberration and could potentially become a totally lost one with or without an agreement between the owners and players.
Why don’t they just do a season where you only play your division (the same amount of games as always- 19 each team), which equals 76 games? This leaves room, for play-in games for any tied teams for both the division and 2 wild card slots. Tied teams are more likely with a shortened season.
Then have an expanded playoff with the top 2 teams from each division, and 2 wild card teams in each league. That’s 16 teams total in the playoffs (8 per league), and plenty of baseball.
Pay players for 76 games worth of whatever their salary is (plus playoff bonuses). Don’t need to worry about any long travel until the playoffs in October (when things should be better than the summer).
This seems to solve everyone’s issue.
playing 4 teams? arg
BTW, before expansion they played the other 8 teams 22 times!
other 7 teams
Seems like there could be a huge problem with getting 76 games in under that format. If you’re only playing within your division, one team is off EVERY single day… So how do you do that? One team is off for the entire three or four days it takes to play a series? Gotta have series play, otherwise travel risks and costs would be prohibitive.
They could easily play a reduced number of games within the division and the balance against the teams in the same division of the other league. That would address the travel issues, each team would play nine opponents, and it would preserve the division and league structure, and the World Series. The fact that this concept never even saw the light of day tells me that they are taking this opportunity to experiment with the elimination of the leagues. If the fans accept it say goodbye to the leagues, and the World Series has we have known it.
Both sides are oblivious to the fact that 40 million people in this country have lost their jobs. No one has any sympathy for overpaid whiners.
that shouldn’t factor at all into the owners’ and PA’s business.
Who cares if they ever ply again … it’s a shame as I was once a die hard baseball fan. When millionaires and billionaires can’t come to an agreement during the time this country needs it the most … I’m done. Put a fork in a sport that was gasping for air already.
good sign to say the least. i trust Stearns and Williams more than a lot of execs
So now reports on ESPN and CBS that NFL players are going to have to share the pain with less revenue and no fans in the seats…..ie. salary reductions.
The number one thing against baseball is the calendar and the season was getting ready to start.
If the virus hit in August baseball would be talking about regrouping for some kind of resumption and/or playoff format like the NBA and NHL and the NFL would be the focus of all this ire.
NBA and NHL spared because they were 7/8th done with their season. NFL spared so far because they have time to try to figure things out.
Baseball victim of circumstance and in the crosshairs because it’s spring.
bingo. people can claim all they want that this wouldnt have happened with the other sports for x y and z reasons, but that just isnt the case. its all timing.
Brown Trout Fisherman
If 10’s of thousands of people can protest. People can be in the stands. Politics strikes again.
Unfortunately the social media radicalized rioters would disrupt getting into games just like they did in Baltimore and St. Louis a few years ago. Probably for the best if there are no fans. Several of the ‘peaceful’ rioters severely injured Orioles fans before the game.
Baseball is great danger of losing a huge amount of fans. As a White Sox fan I was so excited for the 2020 season. I’m on the verge of not caring.
We always come back
I think NFL is going to struggle to figure out how to play as much, if not more than, MLB. Bigger teams, tighter locker rooms, more travel (perhaps, depending on how MLB settles that issue) and potentially worse timing regarding Covid. All scientists say, we will have more cases in the fall than right now, whether it gets out of control again or not, remains to be seen. Thus, to expect playing football thru a potential second wave seems like a difficult proposition.
Brown Trout Fisherman
1 word= protestors
That said, I’d sure love to see the MLB owners and the players work out a compromise for an 80 +/- game season.
It should surprise no one that Milwalkee’s David Sterns is at the forefront of common-sense reasoning. Easily the brightest guy in the game today, he should be slam-dunk for the next commisioner.
1. MLB players do not believe that some of the team owners actually lose money on every game played without gate receipts and concessions, which overall represent ~37% of income across the league(s).
2. MLB owners are, as they have always been, unwilling to “open” their books to prove or disprove the players.
3. MLBPA is unwilling to believe the owners about their P&L.
It’s hard to have a meaningful negotiation when one side doesn’t trust the other but players should not forget that they have the best job in America and get paid a lot for playing a game.
If their career is cut short, they are back like the rest of us.
Books will never be opened without a hard cap salary. As a business owner you don’t show books to employees….and players are employees.
Believe it or not this is progress. The headline reads no counter proposal, MLB rejects proposal and the article says there’s optimism someting will be hammered out. So let’s flip a coin on where we’ll be tomorrow. Perhaps we should be happy there’s no counter proposal? For whatever reason one should be optimistic that this leads to both sides hammering this out?
The billionaire owners need to be the ones to bite the bullet, and they also are failing to see the bigger picture. They should pay the players every cent of their contract (prorated for the number of games they play), and agree to bear whatever losses are incurred from not having fans attend the games… in the long term, this could be a tremendous move, as the game has an amazing opportunity to capture a whole new generation of fans (who otherwise would not be fans) in a very short span of time. But, it sure seems like they’re going to squander it over money and there’s almost no chance they’re going to play this season.
Why should they take a hit? They don’t want to lose money…would you? Will not increase fans at all.
The players want to play as many games as is possible. The ‘owners’ want to cut that number in half.
That tells you everything you need to know.
It tells me both sides want to end up with the most money possible.
The players only want to play as many games as possible because the more they play the more money they make. If the players were doing it for the fans, they’d offer to get paid for 90 games and play 114.
The owners want less games because they lose less money that way. People are doubting this for some reason. I don’t know why. If the owners are pushing 50 games instead of 82 or 114 they clearly would lose less money with less games. They are all about the money.
Chief Wahoo Lives
I have been all for a MLB season still taking place this year. But if they are seriously thinking of having a regular season as short as 48 to 54 games this year, then don’t even bother.
If they can’t fit in at least 81 regular season games this year, then don’t bother with any season at all.
Hey, 48 games gives my Marlins a shot.
Marlins…Mariners World Series!
More legit WS win than the Astros.
There you go, but I’m thinking the Marlins beat the White Sox in 7 after beating the Padres in the NLCS in 7 while the White Sox beat the Rangers in 5 in the ALCS.
The Marlins win it all after a 16-14 regular season in which their tie-breakers make them the 5th Wild Card team. And NL MVP, Jesus Aguilar continues his torrid, season-long run in the playoffs to lead us and support Jose Urena and Caleb Smith’s great seasons that have them finish 2nd and 3rd in Cy Young behind Carlos “Wild Thing” Estevez. But the NLCS and World Series are tough as the Marlins struggle with NL MVP runner-up, Eric Hosmer during the series with the Padres, and then they struggle to contain AL MVP, Tim Anderson.
It’s going to be a great year!
Could end up as crazy as that.
As much as I miss Baseball, I would be ok with just skipping this season.
Brown Trout Fisherman
Players are 100 percent awful. My job was terminated and I had to accept a much lower salary. This is the reality of many. I didn’t ask for this hoax and neither did they. But they have to realize what there value is. Thousand of minor leaguers are done or make $400 per month. The owners are not “winning” either they are losing more than I could ever make per game.
The players and the owners agreed to prorated salaries.
While I agree with you in principle, I have to object to the minor league player assumption. Most, if not nearly all, make that amount because they are not as good as those in the majors. This is the reality of market value and the price system.
Chief Wahoo Lives
@Brown Trout Fisherman
Yes, the Covid19 thing is largely a hoax. And it’s going to hurt the average Joe’s and Jane’s way, way more than it will anyone who’s wealthy. In fact it’s going to make the mega-wealthy even wealthier yet.
Yes, the players (the bigger majority, not all though) are a bunch of massively overpaid babies who will not suffer anywhere nearly as much as the average man and woman.
But the billionaire team owners are the worst of this bunch. I will always “sympathize” more with millionaires than I will with Billionaires.
The owners are the bigger whinny cry-baby problem in this by far.
It seems as if nobody has read or has much faith in the statements of the Brewers and Reds execs at the top of the article/update. I feel like there is probably more reason to hope than the conclusions people are reaching.
It seems like at least some progress has been made. That the owners would pay prorated for 50 games is a better offer than what they proposed before. I think the players will come around and they will meet somewhere in the middle. Emotions affect people’s initial reactions and responses, but when people have a little more time to think things over, more clarity and better decisions can come out of that space.
I think this is far from over, personally. Maybe just wishful thinking but I’ll throw a positive and hopeful vibe out there amidst all this negativity!
I’m tired of hearing both sides go back and forth with offers and it leading nowhere and then sources come out that say they’re confident both sides will hammer something out. They’ve done nothing to indicate they will “hammer” something out, and it’s beyond frustrating to continue to hear people come out and say they will reach a deal soon.
I don’t see an MLB season for 2020, and I think the owners will lock out the players in 2021, threatening that season. If there is no agreement, there goes 2022, and all of this results in the alienation of so many fans, MLB will become the fourth or even fifth most popular sport in North America. Baseball returns eventually and it looks a lot like soccer in Europe, with upper and lower division leagues, not based on market size or even necessarily won-loss records, but the number of fans willing to attend the games. The Dodgers and Yankees will always be in Division One, and possibly the Angels, Braves, Cubs, Giants, Nationals and Rangers join them. Forget the leagues, traditional rivalries, etc., this “new world order” is what greed gets both sides. I don’t hate rich people, whether owners or players, but greedy people annoy me.
I feel a certain degree of pity for the baseball operations people and the managers and the coaches. They’re trying to build and lead teams, jobs that both the owners and players are working hard to make impossible.
You can bet that there will be teams that’ll be affected negatively in all sorts of ways by this mess and there will be GMs and managers and coaches who will be fired over the next few years and you’ll be able to trace the butterfly effect backwards to the mess the players and especially the owners are making of this.
Please media please treat this crap as if someone did something positive and don’t cover it. I’m a long time season ticket holder. And I can find other things to waste my time.
Until the season begins, I still have The Simpsons’ “Homer at the Bat.”
* A deal will be agreed upon soon.
No matter how many games they decide to play(or not play), they should open the camps so the players can be ready. But they won’t. If they open the camps then they really have to negotiate. I fear no baseball this year is a done deal.
With the relative union strengths, I’m not surprised that the NBA & NHL (whose union leadership is getting better, at least) are coming to agreements more quickly. I’d be surprised if the NFL misses any time. That union is a doormat. They’d probably agree to play a 30 game schedule for 25% pay, with fans, and thank the owners for the opportunity.
nba already has paid players 75% of salaries. sure, they played as many games so far. but they have an agreement to pay full salaries if the teams losses are not as severe as they first thought. mlb would pay players less than 30% of their salaries if they get to play 50 regular season games. nba players get 50% of regular season revenue in normal times. mlb players just don’t know what percentages of revenue they are getting.
Let’s have football start early so we can forget this mess. MLB will always say the virus killed baseball, it didn’t ! $$$$$ !
~80 game season
Top 16 teams playoffs tourney style
First two rounds, 3 game series
Semis, 5 game series
Finals, 7 game series
If you’re not outraged by whats happening in the country, you are the problem. It shows how much of a joke this whole shutdown has been, when we see seething indoctrinated lemmings take to the street and rail against a false narrative, disproven using the actual data and facts, and pretend the Chinese Virus is
a concern, spare us. There was ZERO distancing when the roaches and rats of society attacked police while hurling molitov cocktails while they pillaged businesses and urban communities. Crickets about CORONA. Spare us the feigning and PLAY BALL!
It’s infuriating that it’s okay to burn down police stations and businesses, zero recourse, yet people are locked up for going swimming or opening their businesses. If you don’t see this as the HOAX it is, you’re an invalid.
“open the books”; OK. Well we know how much the players are paid so figuring how much payroll/game costs is straightforward. Operational costs of the ballpark per game with no fans should be reasonably figurable. Any other major “costs” I’m missing? The TV and radio contracts are more or less known, no fans, so calculating ‘per game’ revenue is fairly simple. For this year, with no fans, I don’t know how advertising revenue would work. So really, the owners would need to provide non-ballpark merch revenue. But for the most part, shouldn’t the ‘$600K/game loss’ be fairly easy to prove/disprove?
You’d need the salary and othet compensation of every scout, every front office exec, every manager and coach, and every team employee, etc…
You’d need to see the cost of every contract with an outside vendor, every debt/loan outstanding, and every lease.
What you don’t realize is, teams don’t want the union to know these things, BUT, they also dont want the other teams to know these things.
Problem 1: if I’m a junior exec or higher level scout, and see I’m undercompensated versus other team’s employees, I’m either leaving or demanding raises… costs go up.
Problem 2: teams also compete against eachother off the field. If I’m competing against 3 other clubs to hire a new exec, manager, or sign a player, if I have all that info you speak of – because you know it would get ‘leaked’ no matter the NDA that goes in place – then I lose some of my competitive advantage because other teams know roughly what I earn and what I can “afford.”
There’s reasons for ‘closed books’ other than MLBPA seeking a different piece of the pie.
Really smart post by someone who actually understands the ins and outs of running a business.
Yes, shows an understanding. However, no one will get to that detail. There’s not enough time to obtain all of it, and also to digest it.
When I purchased my own business 21 years ago the most reliable piece of data was the tax returns (which I’m certain would not be available). I was then able to run my own cash flow analyses to come up with a cash flow picture. I also looked at the balance sheet — also from corporate returns — to be able to see the overall financial strength based upon history. Getting vendor terms, etc. would have been damn near impossible. Also had to look at executive salaries of the persons I would be replacing. Didn’t need to examine everyone’s wage as I did have total payroll number available.
This was the practical extent of the detail, with the point being you can make reasonable decisions without having all minutia available.
Which is why it makes sense for the sides to agree now in principle on a revenue split and also to agree to have a neutral third party act as the auditor, especially since the final numbers probably aren’t going to be known until the end of the year anyway.
A revenue split would be good. MLBPA is so pig-headed, however, they can’t seem to see that this could work in their favor.
1. No, you really wouldn’t, and 2. I’m strictly looking at the $600K game loss as a yes/no type thing in generalities. Each team will be slightly different. I guess what I’m saying is how “open” do the books need to be to tell if what the owners are saying is remotely true or not.
All you need to know is that no-fans-in-the-stands will take 43% right off the top. From there, total MLB revenue (via Forbes) for 2019 is known. One can extrapolate all the way down to the individual game, if necessary.
For my purposes, the owners will operate in the red for 2020 for every game there are no fans are in attendance. No business can profit when 43% is taken off the top.
Do I have sympathy for either side? A resounding “No!” Greed kills and both sides have it.
Owners ought to agree to a half season at full prorated salaries just to get the game moving. If players refuse and instead hold to their 114 game season demand then cancel the season.
Logical minds should conclude the following:
* Owners don’t want to play a season “in the red”, which they will do once the first game is played with no fans are in the stands. This is why they want this ridiculously shortened 50 game season. The fewer games they play, the less money they lose. To some degree they feel like they can still save face publicly if they play a few games.
* MLBPA’s leaders, perception-wise, don’t seem to get this, which is why they’ve established negotiating positions further and further away from ownership as time has dragged on.
* Manfred needs to show some courage and put baseball first. Get the parties in a meeting room. Tell them there will be half a season at full prorated salaries. If they are not willing to accept threaten to go public with the humerus and stupidity and call off the damn season. If that doesn’t work, follow through.
Sorry, “humerus” should have been “hubris”!
Also, the highest paid players seem to be controlling all of MLBPA’s narrative (Scott Boras, is that you?). The little guy seems to have no voice. Compare this with how the NFL handled it’s recent negotiation. There was a player vote. Imagine that!
Sorry, “it’s recent negotiation” should be “its recent negotiation”! 🙂 You should really check and understand grammar if you choose to police typos. I bet you’re fighting off the gals with a stick! Good luck
Sorry, typo. Should’ve proof-read first! I know what I mistakenly typed was a contraction for “it is”.
Yes, I do understand grammar.
Ownership proposed 81 games, players countered with 100, ownership countered with 50. How does that follow from your logic? We don’t actually know if the owners would really lose money on every game played, we only have their word for it. They’ve refused to release the data to back up the claim.
I assure you, the MLBPA fully understands the situation. The union knows full well that the player’s share of the game’s revenue has steadily declined under the current CBA. It’s logical that they don’t want this trend to continue especially with the CBA coming up for renewal. Ownership is continuing their practice of trying to keep as much of the revenue data secret as they possibly can. It’s what this standoff is all about in the final analysis.
The commissioner is the creature of ownership. He puts their interests first, last, and always. You can’t expect Manfred or any other commissioner to have any backbone. If he can’t count to at least 15 he loses his job. Baseball doesn’t just need a strong commissioner, it needs a strong commissioner position. But ownership doesn’t want a strong commissioner so it has a weak one, and they will continue to want a weak one until the crisis grows to the point where it threatens the viability of the game.
It follows my logic in that the owners’ 81 games was based on paying much less than prorated salaries, henceforth trying to salvage a profit. The 50 games was based upon trying to lose as little money as possible while still trying to look magnanimous in granting full prorated salaries.
The players have upped the number of games to the current high of 114, all while keeping their full prorated salaries. This would put the owners in the deepest financial hole — as examined thus far.
Players apparently don’t see this, as their negotiations have gotten farther from the owners’ financially speaking — not closer — which is what should happen in any “good faith” negotiation.
I realize, but again the owners argument that they are losing money on every game played (but making it up in volume, as the old joke goes) has to be taken entirely on faith. If playing games was such a dead loss situation they’d have pulled the plug on the entire rest of the season already. Reading into the players argument a bit it seems clear that they suspect the owners are hiding quite a bit of revenue. They don’t want to go into the next CBA negotiation flying blind and get the fuzzy end, like they did last time. This is what the maneuvering on this season is all really about. As for whether the sides are getting closer together or further apart, I don’t think we can really claim to know based on the select details leaked to the media. That feels mostly like spin. My concern continues to be how this sets the stage for next year. More bad faith (arguably on both sides) has to portend more labor-management strife. Anyone who’s been a fan for any time should know what that means for the game.
Even the best of businesses can’t make a profit in the immediate future when 43% of gross revenue is instantly cut off.
Gotta’ agree regarding the weakness of Manfred.
Manfred works for the owners. The last time a commissioner defied the owners and opened up camps was Fay Vincent in 1990 to end the owners lockout. He was fired the following year. Without an agreement there is no season
Everyone saying players will get 100% of their salary due to the original CBA really needs to do some research into contract law or read any contract they’ve ever signed. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an agreement without a force majeure clause. This clause frees either or both parties from obligations in case of war, strike, riot, crime, epidemic, or anything else that can be considered an act of God. You better believe owners will use this to get out of it if they have to.
I don’t care if you have 20 bucks or 20 billion. No one is going to open up a business knowing they’ll lose money in the best case scenario. It’s crazy to expect them to. Players would not be losing money. They’d still be making a substantial amount. Take it or leave it. That’s their choice.
Virtually every start up and restaurant ever opened lost money for years.
Businesses routinely absorb losses on the path to long term profitability.
This idea that if the MLB owners can’t make a profit this one season then it somehow makes sense to sabotage the sport is just silly.
Starbucks paid baristas their full pay to sit home with closed stores generating no revenue, but you think MLB owners can’t pay the players when the TV money, video game money, merchandise money, licensing money (I’ve seen MLB branded bandages, FFS) etc. more than covers the players pro rated pay and them some?
The two sides are seeing eye to eye on expanded playoffs and the universal DH, Jon Heyman of MLB Network tweets.
But are they smelling nose to nose? Because this stinks.
It sure does stink. Agreeing on those items right now, however, is almost meaningless. When money and season length are agreed upon all else will fall into place.
Get it done
Gonna go ahead and take a look over at Pro Football Rumors now.
Mind-blowing incompetence, MLB/MLBPA. Mind-blowing.
The crybaby players that are whining about not getting full pay and seems like they would rather get zero pay instead of reduced pay need a diaper change.
We have to love optimism but realistically they are so far apart its going to have to take a miracle to get a season in this year.
The players want 114 game season based on no days off and the season beginning July 1st the regular season would end Oct 22. This would give the players 70% of their contract for this year.
The owners have said that with no spectators at each game they would lose between 680+k per game., so they want a 51 game season which reduced that fan based lose greatly over playing 114 games and it also means players salaries are reduced greatly (ie Trout would only get 22% of this years salary)
Next is where do you play. The logical solution to all of this would be to avoid bad weather such as rain and cold playing into later october. Since there would be no fans at the game location on fan base doesn’t count. There are 7 domed stadiums in the MLB they would be the ideal places weather won’t be a concern. The same for post season play.
If everything gets going no later then July 1st. a 114 game season with no days off and post season would end some time late Nov early December
With a 51 game season and days off the season would likely end mid Oct.
I’m of the impression the owners are losing money already and knowing they are losing money they want to reduce the lose of money as much as possible. The players on the other hand realize that no season really hurts them they are a year older one year less on their contract no money at all.
The owners have stated several times they will not play into November. Concern is the experts predicting second wave to hit of pandemic. Key here also is less games…less costs.
I agree with you.. Playing 114 games they would be playing well into November with post season play. And never mind lose of revenue with no fans in the stands, they still have to consider where to play. They talk about Arizona but they can’t handle 30 teams playing there and complete any type of schedule. It would require 3 games per day,.
The one solution as I said before is play the games in the 7 domed stadiums in the league, and since fans wouldn’t be in attendance tha doesn’t become a factor
So in the east you have Toronto and Miami center you have Houston, Scottsdale, Minnesota West Seattle
And weather during league play and post season does not come into play.
But I really thing the owners would like to chalk the season up as a lose and just not play and take a small hit compared to a large hit if they play
There are 8 domed or retractable roof stadiums in MLB. Florida (Marlins, Rays) and Texas (Astros, Rangers) have two each. The others are Toronto (Blue Jays), Milwaukee (Brewers), Phoenix (Diamondbacks) and Seattle (Mariners). Minnesota should have had one to replace the Metrodome but passed due to funding issues.
There are other ball parks that are located in warmer climates which should be fine for consideration of postseason baseball in November. They would include the five in California (Padres, Angels, Dodgers, Giants and A’s) along with Atlanta (Braves). That’s 14 MLB stadiums in which games could be played through November along with other potential venues that could also accommodate baseball.