10:09pm: The league would have been willing to push back the season without expanded playoffs and the universal DH had the MLBPA made a counterproposal, Heyman tweets. The union declined to do so, as Heyman notes the players would rather start the season on time because of concerns over injuries.
8:48pm: Major League Baseball proposed a 154-game regular season for 2021 to the MLBPA over the weekend, but the union announced that it has rejected the offer. MLB’s offer would have meant delaying the start of spring training and the season by about a month because of COVID-19 concerns, though the players would have received full pay.
In explaining why it turned down MLB’s plan, the union said, “Although Player salaries would not be initially prorated to a 154-game regular season, MLB’s proposal offers no salary or service time protections in the event of further delays, interruptions, or cancellation of the season.”
The league did offer to remove language that could have allowed commissioner Rob Manfred to cancel or postpone the campaign, Tim Brown of Yahoo Sports reports. An expanded postseason “presumably” was on the table, too, per Brown, though Jon Heyman of MLB Network reported earlier Monday that the players have not been in favor of that. This may also eliminate the possibility of a universal designated hitter in 2021, which would greatly affect such free agents as Nelson Cruz and Marcell Ozuna, who have been awaiting clarity on whether the National League will keep the position for a second straight year.
“In light of the MLBPA’s rejection of our proposal, and their refusal to counter our revised offer this afternoon, we are moving forward and instructing our Clubs to report for an on-time start to Spring Training and the Championship Season, subject to reaching an agreement on health and safety protocols,” the league said in its own statement.
As of now, camp’s scheduled to begin Feb. 17 and the season is slated to start April 1. A full season would be a welcome development for baseball fans after the league’s teams played just 60 regular-season games apiece in 2020, though it’s alarming that MLB and the MLBPA continue to fight over key issues. The two sides have had a contentious relationship over the past couple of years, and with the current collective bargaining agreement set to expire in December, an eventual work stoppage looks all the more realistic.
Shocking
Good. Don’t back down, players
Why?! They proposed 154 game season but will PAY for 162 games. Plus, expanded playoffs which benefits everyone. And, its only for 1 season to be renegotiated again next January….win, win, win for everyone! I’m all for the Players against Owners but its 100% personal at this point seems like smh……
You don’t understand the way things work. Cmon man. 162 with original playoffs. Things will be fine. Social distance, n95 masks no cheap skate handkerchiefs, just like Lowe’s and banks etc…and you have fans with 30% capacitie. Done
Most baseball fans don’t want expanded playoffs. Too many teams get in, regular season is worthless. I’ll quit watching baseball for good if Greg expand the playoffs
*if they
The proposal gives Manfred so much leverage during renegotiations
Expanded playoffs does not benefit everyone and leverage is important heading into next year’s negotiations
No you won’t. Stop being a drama queen.
They can put all 30 MLB teams and a few minor league teams into a post-season and I’ll watch, because it’s baseball.
I wouldn’t let Greg off the hook so easily bencole. Never know what that guy will do.
What’s sad is 2 others agreed…
So the regular season for the NFL, NBA and NHL is worthless? Baseball is the only sport losing its fan base. Expanding the playoffs and giving more fans the chance to see their team make the postseason is the best idea yet. There’s nothing wrong with half the teams making a run into the postseason
Never said there’s anything wrong with expanded playoffs themselves. Only within the framework of MLB/MLBPA’s current situation
Commit mlb9229 we are with you. Nobody wants 50% of teams in the playoffs. It’s not what baseball is. Anything more is simply watered down.
The NBA is worthless period, but yes the regular season practically is worthless. You have one or two “super” teams, a few teams that straight out tank from opening tip-off to the end of the season, and usually a few teams with losing records get into the playoffs because someone has to. There are hardly any upsets in the NBA playoffs because most #8 seeds are not going to knock off the #1 seed in either conference, same with #7 vs #2 and even #6 vs #3. The NBA playoffs are rather predictable. The NFL, like MLB usually has a surprise team that sneaks into the playoffs and maybe has a little success. In a short series in Baseball even the best team can be knocked out early if they have a couple of bad games. Ask the Cubs how much they liked that series against the Marlins…
the nba since 2016 has lost allot its audience. espn and others don’t talk about it because they love the nba. In 2016 the nba average 18 million. in 2021 the average is 7..8 million.
Watching trash teams continue to make the playoffs is one of the numerous reasons I stopped following the NBA.
I don’t care if 1984 was a manual or not, your statement is spot on!
Why, you ask? It’s simple…you take a queue from Seinfeld returning a jacket…for spite.
@bencole…
Wow! Good thin u check that gyus spellin!!!
tool box nobody asked for your correction on someone’s post, try commenting on the actual post idiot, cant stand these guys get a life are you that bored? Is your life that bad? Correcting the world one spelling mistake at a time….u my friend are a American hero
Like this rant is any better … Is your life that bad?
Done with the nba for a long time. Not really entertaining
bencole corrected his own typo (which likely involved autocorrect). I guess we know who the idiot is here, Rowdy’s Telles. Can you figure it out?
“For good” huh.
Thanks for contributing mlb. You pretty much lost the rest of us with the “ don’t back down “ silliness.
Its true, cant trust Gregs
Buh-bye. This is happening. If not this season, next.
Are you sure most baseball fans don’t want expanded playoffs. In my opinion the expanded playoffs generated more excitement in baseball.
I knew a Greg once…didn’t trust him.
The owners want it because it increases their profits while keeping them from spending money on their actual players.
The nba and nhl regular seasons are worthless…
Greg…2021’s Karen.
Umm. An American hero. Hee hee.
Dumb comment mlb. Not about backing down, it is about playing – SAFELY. There was no loss of money involved. Also, it looks like the DH was blown up.
Negotiations for a new CBA are around the corner. No reason for the players to change anything or alter their position. Now that would be “dumb!”
yeah, go for $100,000,000.01 per year; while the rest of us become equally poor socialists.
Baseball better get its act together, and in a hurry. They had the entire off-season to get this settled. Now here we are two weeks before ST is to begin, and the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing.
As an aside, what is it with guys texting women pix of their private parts? Mickey Calloway is the latest to be accused of improper behavior. Angels will no doubt can the guy, and deservedly so.
good. no way you shouldnt be able to do 162
It’s 8 games and the players would be paid for a full 162. Why are those 8 games so monumental?
Under the proposal the players would receive no additional revenue for the expanded playoffs. So if they agree to it now they have no leverage in the next cba. It would be stupid for the players to just let the owners make more money off of them without compensation.
Kinda like how it would be stupid for Owners to lose 1 million+ in revenue per game but the players earn all of their salary.
They. Wait for it. Have contracts. Also, they don’t pay the players more because they made more money than expected some years, why are they doing the opposite?
Tell that too the small and medium market teams. Ever hear of a little contract clause called force majeure?
Then why would the players agree to it??
Because it’s. Wait for it. In their contracts.
Owners didn’t lose $1 million in revenue per game. They lost a total of $20 per team in 2020. The PLAYERS lost the rest by taking prorated salaries.
That is not applicable because they showed that they CAN play the games.
Where did you see that 20 million number- show us the source. I laid out the math it is clear cut and not hard to follow. Well for most .
Pads
A “force majeure” clause (French for “superior force”) is a contract provision that relieves the parties from performing their contractual obligations when certain circumstances beyond their control arise, making performance inadvisable, commercially impracticable, illegal, or impossible.
Read the part about commercially impracticable.. Now go look up the avg. attendance for 2019 and multiply by avg. ticket price- much more then 20 million per team. And that doesnt cover concession revenue etc.
Force majeure cannot be applied because it has already been proven they can play the games.
Read where it says commercially impracticable – A “force majeure” clause (French for “superior force”) is a contract provision that relieves the parties from performing their contractual obligations when certain circumstances beyond their control arise, making performance inadvisable, commercially impracticable, illegal, or impossible.
bull its as simple as less games for the samw ammount of money. that doesnt track logically. 162 at 154 games pay sounds like something they’d do. there’s something else in there that is a real problem for the PA. more playoff spots is not enough an issue alone to waylay that.
Yea pretty sure they don’t want Manfred to have unilateral control to cancel games as well.
Darkside: I saw something here that I don’t recall reading in other articles: that Manfred’s unilateral control over the in-season games also creates a major problem for service time, both in general, and for progressive steps through the PA’s structure.
That is what struck me as much more important an issue. I think the articles are emphasizing schedule and playoffs, but there are clearly some very critical career-altering decisions that could be left solely in the hands of Robert Loquicious Manfred should the PA agree, which would give me significant more pause.
That said, I’m still of the opinion it should go at the 154 proposal. They cannot not play yet continue to build service time, imho.
It’s not about the 8 games. It’s the fact delaying the season a month would be a nightmare for players to re-schedule their situations in Arizona and Florida.
Then why you worried about it?
What if it comes down to a 3 way tie? Not probable but not impossible especially in the NL Central.
Because it wasn’t haggled over. You can’t just give something like that to a union, man.
This entire proposal is such a reasonable offer. The union is really coming off as nothing more than petty with this.
Less work. Same pay. Isn’t that pretty much the entire goal of unions?
The 8 games is irrelevant. The DH is irrelevant. It’s about the playoffs. It’s like me offering you a dollar in exchange for your house and then complaining that you don’t like my offer and that I’m negotiating.
I get it. The MLBPA in the past was a joke and got rolled in the last CBA. It isn’t happening this time but the owners don’t believe it just yet.
The MLBPA should not agree to expanded playoffs this year under any circumstance. Can negotiate on it in the new CBA. For expanded playoffs, the going rate is going to be massive to help make up for the hundreds of millions in guarantee TV revenue the league will make.
Revenue which will go towards the lack of fan attendance. Don’t wash over that very salient detail, bro. Expanding the playoffs is the owners way of hedging their bets.
Not a thing wrong with that.
It is nothing like your “real estate example” at all.
Yessir.
Clarke got played. Embarrassingly so. I fail to see how that now – during a pandemic when everything is a bit more difficult – means he has to make this particular stand at this particular time.
Ya know?
I’m not a union guy.
So my views are kinda set.
But the average American is going to see dudes being offered millions of dollars to play a game – & less of them! – & balking at that offer. That’s not going to play. Nor should it.
Explain to all the building tradesman who are on the bench right now how you are justified in rejecting a very lucrative offer – which entails again *less* work.
Ya know?
Pretty bad look, man.
No other way to say it.
What if the owners replace the players next year? Then what good is the MLBPA and it’s members.
They are biting off more than they can chew. And in the process going to be losing the dwindling support of the fans. This fan does not really care if they play or not.
If they are being paid for essentially 8 free games, wouldn’t this cover the extra team games in the playoffs, considering not every team makes the playoffs?
This is a labor discussion between billionaires versus millionaires. If your concern is the livelihood and profitability of billionaires who are so rich they can afford to own a MLB team, I don’t know what to say…
I guarantee if you were worth 2x your salary and your manager didn’t give it to you, you wouldn’t be happy.. I think we have to get away from this “game” notion. These are multi-billion dollar businesses.
Do I think any MLB player deserves 20 million/ year. No. There is too much money in sports but that is how it is. Not like ticket prices are coming down or cheap concessions. The money goes to billionaires who do nothing or players who are the whole game – I’ll take the players’ side every day.
Just because they’re billionaires I don’t think it’s incumbent upon them to lose money. If you don’t agree I don’t know what to say…
;)
I don’t have a manager. & if I did he/she would certainly not be paying me half of what I’m worth. That I can guarantee you. & I don’t see the value of these extra-arbitrary hyperbolic financial analogies anyway. This isn’t anywhere near a fifty cents on the dollar situation.
Also – like it or not – the average American from my example will continue to refer to pro ball players as “playing a game” for their living. That’s a common perspective. I don’t see it changing anytime soon, man.
I try not to have hard & fast rules about anything. MLB is not a typical business model (anti-trust exemption). So I oftentimes don’t agree with the owners.
On this one? I think the players are being petty. More to my point, I think the general perception will sway that direction, as well.
(& I concur with it)
I think what gets missed is both sides signed a deal that runs through this year. Those are the terms of the contract. The players are saying they want to abide by the contract as is. I think that is more than fair. They can negotiate new terms once the contract expires.
How’s this for a thought process mils100
Players – we want more money. Give us part of your TV revenue, strraming etc.
Owners- and what do we get ?
Players – nothing
owners- ok. See you in 6 months. Bye
Who in this thread is concerned with the libel ethos and profits of billionaire owners? Not a single person. Are you concerned about the livelihood and profits of multimillionaires? Or do you just want to see good baseball?
Ducky, You are trying to wash over two very salient points #1, fans will be in the stands in 2021, just a reduced number to start the season and #2 that the PLAYERS took the brunt of the losses last season by taking a cut in pay. The PLAYERS took $2.4 billion cut in pay and the owners claimed they lost $2.8 billion in revenue TOTAL.
That funny. You cannot replace the skillset of major league players. The level of play is so high that just 1 in 20 AAA players play in the majors at all. So who are you going to replace them with. Are you willing to pay MLB money to watch minor league players? We saw how well that worked for the owners when they tried that the last time. .
Its incumbent on the owners to fullfil the contract they signed. Don’t like the contract you signed? Negotiate a new one when this one is over.
The players already bailed the owners out in 2020 by taking a $2.4 billion hit to their salaries last season when the owners claimed they lost $2.8 billion in revenue total.
Except there is an agreed up clause in that contract called force majeure- go read up on it.
The owners could contractually cancel the season until 100% of fans can safely get back to stadiums.
The MLBPA should be careful what they wish for.
@PadFans, where did you get that $2.4 billion number?
From an Article on the 2020 season
The numbers based on the reporting done leading up to Forbes’ annual baseball valuations in April 2021 show baseball’s total revenue dropped about $6.5 billion in 2020, to just under $4 billion. Meanwhile, operating income (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) for the league’s 30 teams was a negative $1 billion versus a positive $1.5 billion the prior year.
I will take Forbes numbers over your assumptions Pads. .
Maybe the MLB and the union should hire people to decide how much money is allowed to be made by the owners and the players. We could just expand that to our whole country. Because you know, that’s always been super successful in history.
Great point. A CBA is intended to pre-empt disputes like this. The topics in this proposal are outside the norm of the CBA language and negotiation cycle, so it is always going to be an uphill battle.
Spare tire
I only seems like a dispute bc of the way it’s handled. There is a huge loss of stadium revenue and this MLB proposal looks like a reasonable way to increase revenue. The players may not want to accept the proposal, but it’s far from unreasonable.
Players get 100% of normal non-covid season pay for 95% of regular season games. They get additional money for playing in the expanded playoffs. There’s a CBA formula and they could certainly negotiate a one off.
The problem is that MLBPA is so inept that they view everything with distrust because they negotiated a prior CBA that they are now unhappy with. To turn down a reasonable proposal by saying they could lose future bargaining power is ridiculous. If anything it gives you a chance to reference a successful negotiation and hold the line in future situations, but still position themselves as reasonable
Baseball 1600 then why trip about 8 games. Seems petty on your part
It’s not the 8 games that monumental. It’s the fact that with the delay of the season and also pushing the end by only a couple weeks, there would only be 12 off days for the ENTIRE season. That’s just asking for injuries and to tax all your arms.
Another, it sets a precedent if they allow for expansion of the playoffs with no increase in pay. Currently, the players only make money off the gate money in the playoffs. The owners pocket all of the TV money. Again, bad deal for the players and a dangerous (for the players) precedent to set.
Also, if you look into what they proposed, there is no guarantee of their salaries. It’s left open ended. Meaning if there are multiple games that are lost due to COVID, the players may or may not be compensated.
The proposal is a 100% one-sided for the owners. Why do you think the players should agree to it? They said they plan on the season starting on time and will be ready to play the full season. The owners have had all off-season to work on this and now when some players have already reported to spring training sites, the owners are going to offer this lame proposal. The owners waiting this long on purpose to try to create as much leverage as possible.
DarkSide:
The 154 game schedule was probably the least contentious issue. The problem was the lack of increased pay for the PS. That extra pay for 8 games was going to be less than the revenue created by the expanded playoffs.
But there’s nothing magical about 162. The 154 game schedule was used about as long as the 162 game schedule has. The 154 with the expanded PS makes sense for fans. There’s nothing worse in the sport when your team is out of contention early and they have to play out the string in August and September. Give me more meaningful games in October and less meaningless ones in September.
if the players wanted less regular season games they would’ve never extended it to 162 if those games supposedly weren’t in the interest of ownership either.
@tad2b13 Oh, I know something worse in the sport. When two teams with losing records are deemed “worthy” of a postseason berth, which is exactly what happened with last year’s expanded postseason. And why do you believe there’s fewer meaningless games in September with expanded postseason? Plenty of teams that would normally be fighting for a playoff spot instead will clinch early, that’s what happens when more than half of all teams make the postseason.
to be fair, the Dodgers have been the best team in baseball for about a half decade now, but only won in last year’s expanded format. one may argue the most broken format produced the most decisive champion. add to that that with 162 the cream rises to the top. you wolnt have a division without two over .500 teams with 162 games.
Im not a life long baseball fan so that prob why my outlook is different but i think top 2 from eaxh division should get in, thats really only adds 1 more team then now with 2 wild cards. Maybe first seris is best of 3 with top 2 teams record wise getting a bye. Maybe best team in eaeh league get a bye and the other 4 teams play best of 3. There are ways to add more games for sure but it is stupid if teams with losing records get it i will agree, so my second opinion is probably better
Fever Pitch Guy:
You also have the situation where a decent team, that has had a bunch of crucial injuries, is given the chance to barely squeak in once they’re healthy, because the PS was expanded.
But given the choice of marginal teams making the playoffs, or a longer drawn out regular season, with tons of meaningless games, I’ll opt for the marginal teams getting in. If they’re truly bad they won’t last long.
Why does everyone think that a postseason expansion is going to be 16 teams like we had last year? They only did that many because it was a short season. The same reason the NFL put in more teams than normal when the 1982 players strike cut the season to only 9 regular season games. I highly, highly, highly doubt they would jump from 10 to 16 just like that. More than likely we’d get a 12 team playoffs. I did the research on 12 teams for 2000-2019 (20 years) and in that span you wanna know how many teams with a losing record would have made the playoffs? Exactly 1. Know how many teams with 90 or more wins would have made the playoffs? 16, so nearly 1 team per year wins 90 games in a season but misses the playoffs. Putting them in the playoffs makes the playoffs better by making it more competitive.
Marginal teams can last longer the shorter the series. The best of five series is hard enough but the best of three series is flat out idiotic if that is used again this year. You’re just asking for a top team to get knocked out. That’s like losing a three game series. Dodgers lost one series the entire 2020 season. What if that series was in the playoffs? How many times have wild card teams won the WS? They just need to get hot. We don’t need more teams, and we need to give the top teams a better path to advancing why else play 162 games? Season needs to be played for something.
Tad2: So when the team the forged through all year starts to experience injuries and bumps and bruises at the end, you have a teams that glides on a AAA roster through the middling season come in with their now fresh, healthy, full roster of stars to play in 4 series?
Still no, but thank you.
Hold up Tiger Fan, you are making too much sense for this format. My argument has always been, more teams that can play in the post season, more teams that will try.
Yankee Clipper:
Your analogy makes no sense. No AAA team is making the PS whether it’s expanded or not.
There is nothing worse than letting mediocre teams into the playoffs. God forbid one of these bad teams actually win the ever so stupid best out of 3 opening series. Any team can win a random three game series, even between the best team in baseball and worst team in baseball. Not likely but very possible. Let’s let more teams in make it more random to see who advances. Baseball already has one of the most random playoffs in all of sports now you want to make it even more random. If your team is out of contention in August or September newsflash they weren’t very good and we don’t want to see them in the playoffs, nor do they deserve to be in the playoffs.
@mlbdodgerfan2015
I guess we shouldn’t have let the 2006 Cardinals make the playoffs because they won their division with only 83 wins. By your standards they shouldn’t have been allowed to win the World Series that year because they were so bad during the regular season and only made the playoffs because their division was a dumpster fire.
People that don’t want an expanded playoffs sound just like those people from 60 years ago when MLB expanded from 154 to 162 regular season games and pitched a fit about it until MLB agreed to keep separate record books to differentiate the different season lengths. It was ridiculous and thankfully in the 80s common sense finally prevailed and we got rid of having two different record books.
A 12 team playoff would be great. More great teams in the playoffs (yes, winning 90 plus games makes you a great team) and therefore making the playoffs more competitive. More income for the owners and players. More games to watch for the fans. How could anyone be against this?
Wrong, “THEY WON THEIR DIVISION” pretty much grants them direct access to the big show by what he’s saying. Now if they finished 3rd in their division but the second best runner up at 83 wins (one removed from the WC)? Uh, nope, they don’t deserve to be in because they didn’t win anything deserving of gaining entrance into the bracket, brother.
@Yankee Clipper
So it’s ok for an 83 win team in a horrible division to make the playoffs but a 95 win team in a stacked division to note make the playoffs? That seems pretty legit and fair to me. What was I thinking? Thanks for clearing this all up for me.
Could be they had a slow start due to injuries and they finished the season as the best team. Nationals did something like that the year they won. The argument about the NBA being junk because of it is not valid. I personally don’t like NBA, but their social media is 3 times the number MLB is. They promote their stars. They have inferior product to baseball imo but a better business model considering their results. Baseball needs an update IF they want to grow.
Couldn’t they have begun this process in, say, December-January?
No bc that would make logical sense. We can’t be having that here this is MLB and Manfred we’re talking abt!
this is manfraud’s way of negotiating. offering trash after trash till there is no time to negotiate.
Give them a break. They just went through a grueling 60 game season. When could they have found time to plan for the next season?? We ask so much as fans. #sarcasm
Owners fubard it by starting now
Good!
Rejecting it, just because.
rejecting it because they’re cheaping out on 8 games
Darkside always roots for the owners. It’s in his DNA. Ignore his comments.
The original offer left Manfred in control of many cancelling some games or the season which would have left the players with less money.
i dont know why my response was deleted, but i challenge you to find proof that I side with them most of the time.
Rejecting it because they don’t want to give up their leverage re expanded playoffs just before the negotiations for the new CBA.
Which is why I don’t care any more. Neither side has the good of the game on there minds. Just posturing for the next CBA negotiations. Screw them all
See Marty and Rob! There are more of us.
Ding ding
Not a fan of either side anymore.
Agreed, but the owners are much, much, much worse
@MWeller77 Yup. I can’t argue that.
MWeller77: I read your comment and began typing my response to negate it, but truth be told, there is no equating the two sides. Yes, I understand that players have the power in numbers, but owners, hence the name, are as damned near to absolute power as one can be in many respects.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and if given the opportunity, I don’t see any difference here. I’ll side with owners when they’re right and players when they are; but as far as potential, yeah.
Great news. Open Spring training on time and let’s play ball!
Good. They have an agreement called the CBA. If this was about safety only, they would ask to move the season back a month and that only.
At this point, they need to leave 2021 alone and start working on the CBA for 2022 and beyond with maybe a tiny bit of thought as to what is best for the game and not how to milk every penny out of the short-term. w total disregard for the fans, players and the game itself.
Right? It’s almost as though the owners are trying to use the pandemic to gain an unfair advantage in the upcoming CBA negotiations…but wealthy people WOULD NEVER take advantage of a crisis to enrich themselves, oh no!
Like the MLBPA isn’t doing the same thing? Cmon people. Be real
How? By choosing to just play the season like normal? Haha. That darn MLBPA! How dare they choose to play a normal season?
The MLBPA is saying let’s stick to the contract we both signed. A contract is a contract. You don’t get to change the terms midway without approval from both sides.
@takeitback- if it was a normal season then sure. Right now there are municipal laws that prevent full fan attendance. That is not normal. There is a pandemic that prevents a lot of people from wanting to gather in large group settings like entertainment venues, cruise ships, airplanes, etc. That is not normal.
On average each MLB team can expect 1 million fewer fans at a minimum. That’s 30 million total. You do some simple math and at $50 – $100 total revenue that’s $1.5 to $3 billion. Losing that much revenue is not normal.
Yeah, but don’t think both didn’t learn from this and that this will be a huge sticking point in the next contract. Example: many municipalities have some type of agreement that many provisions of a contract get suspended indefinitely during a crisis, or state of emergency, at which point those provisions fall directly under management (Manfred) control. I foresee the owners trying to add some type of language in the future. Players, of course, will laugh, wipe, and send back.
ust did some research. In 2019 the Avg. attendance was 2.25 million per team . Average ticket price was $33.00 – that is $74,250,000 or 917,000 per game ( not including concessions -merchandise -parking etc)
So it is obvious owners are losing 1 million + in revenue each game that is played without fans. The more games played the higher the losses.
Minors is not governed by the same contract as MLB.
With this in mind and the fact the MLBPA looks like they will be very intransigent this year. I wonder if the Owners would consider enacting the Force Majeure clause of the CBA cancel the season until Fans can go to 100% capacity .Then go ahead and broadcast the Minor league season using the argument that the cost structure of the minors is much different then MLB and makes it economically feasible to proceed.
That would be playing ultimate hardball – call it the nuclear option.
Something to ponder.
No they’re not,
THIS IS FOR EVERYONE.
Unrealized revenue IS NOT A LOSS. There are many expenses they’re not paying not just the same as that revenue is not coming in. They’re arguing because their total revenue dipped, not because they’re losing money.
Lost revenue is lost revenue . It is not deferred to some other date.
Baseball is a business – in any business when you experience a large drop in revenue you either A. Try to increase revenue in other streams or B cut costs.
Only the richest teams can suffer a 100-140 million drop in revenue for the year and NOT go in the red .
We don’t know the costs of running a game at a ballpark, nor do we know the profits teams make from concessions, souvenir sales, parking, etc. or broadcast revenues of those eight games. And, the MLBPA doesn’t know that either. The owners are pretty tightlipped about money. It makes a lot of people, including the platers, conclude that they are hiding things from the union, from the cities and states they extort, and from each other. For teams that are allegedly losing money, they may be better off not playing those games. And, we also don’t know the added revenues of the extra playoff games, though at least the MLBPA probably knows that.. It is hard for us to assess any of this from the outside without all the facts and figures. but I’m inclined not to trust the side that is shady about the real money,.
My point was with the certainty of the lost gate revenue and the fixed cost of salaries for some teams without massive TV contracts they would loss less by not playing. The Nuclear option.
Both the Owners and MLBPA are walking a tightrope.
The Force Majeure is really an interesting take. The PA thinks they hold all the cards in holding the hard line of people come to see the players, not the team. Reality is pretty simple though, that once the clubs determine the losses outweigh the gains, they shut it down or find replacements.
MLB and owners hold all the cards, and the nuclear option is coming closer and closer. All it takes is the wrong “no” to turn into the ultimate “no”. MLBPA says no to the wrong question, owners and league say “thanks but no thanks” and find an alternate solution.
Fans come for the players, but it is still a business. Crazy how many fans don’t get that. Remember how much we were fans of Blockbuster until Netflix came to town?
But it’s cool to hate rich people now, so obviously the owners are just evil
The Force Majeure is not applicable because they played games last season. Other than Toronto, no city is saying that games cannot be played. The owners cannot use that clause to unilaterally shorten or end the season. That has already been determined. There will be a season and unless the players agree to changes, it will be 162 games. The owners hold NO cards for 2021. This is NOT CBA negotiations.
Force Majeure is applicable as it has a commercially viable aspect. WeeHoo is 100% correct.
Marc, I have to disagree with you about being “shady” though. The reason owners are not going to open their books is because the MLBPA would bleed the company for every red cent the company had. They would openly scrutinize private aspects of company spending to effectuate their goals of become more wealthy. I don’t think it’s shady. It is their business, after all. Why must they show their employees all their money and exactly how it’s made?
Marc,
We know all of those things for one team, the Braves. They are owned by a public company so their books are open. EVERYTHING Marko said was incorrect for the Braves. We can be reasonably sure that the numbers for the Braves would carry over for most teams. Since the Braves were not in the red, they simply had less profit in 2020, most MLB teams are in the same boat. Yes, a few small market teams may have actually lost money, but you can be sure that most didn’t just like the Braves didn’t.
You are making assumptions based on one team – I showed you the actual math and that just covers ticket sales. There are a bunch of other revenue streams that drop either completely or considerably with no fans.
The owners could contractually cancel the season if the MLBPA becomes intransigent.
@MarkoRock68, But two teams play in one game so EACH team loses 500k for each game.
No that is based on Home attendance . I used avg attendance of 2.25 million.(2019 numbers ) x Avg Ticket Price. Obviously some teams lost alot more revenue then others.
I just replied back to Pads with numbers Forbes have put out. 6.5 billion drop in overall revenue and a Billion in the Red for Income.
@MarkoRock68, But they only play 81 home games. Six or one half dozen. Each team lost about $33 million in income.
It’s closer to my figures. They lost $81 million in gate income having no fans but paid players on the average, $60 million less per team, so that would be a net of $21 million in income. Then there’s the tv revenue loss.
@MLBfan -81 million + 60 million = -21 million not $21 million income. You have your math screwed up. You lose 81 million in revenue but cut costs by 60 million = -21 million loss.
@MarkoRock68, My bad, I meant an $21 million DROP in income. But I’ve looked at the Forbes article since my post. The actual drop in income per Forbes was $1.5 billion positive to $1.0 billion negative, So the ave per team, per Forbes was a drop of $83 million in income.
Since teams make more money, on ave, by tv, I can see $21 million being attributed to gate losses and $52 million being attributed to tv losses.
If I calculated it with 162 games (not 81 home games), then your DROP would be $102 million due to gate receipts net player salaries.
EDIT: and $62 million being attributed to tv losses.
MlbFan it is is easy to calculate gate receipts excluding things like concessions-luxury boxes- merchandise- stadium advertising .
In 2019 avg home attendance was 2.25 million. (81 home games) Multiple that by avg ticket price $33= 74.25 Million.
So the teams on avg lost $74.25 in ticket revenue.
You are confusing the drop in revenue and the overall drop in income.
@MarkoRock68, So it coincides with what I said. You said teams were losing $1million per game without fans, without the qualifier of home games. My point was that it was $500k for each team, and I still stand by it.
The Teams Lost 6.5 Billion in Revenue.
Of that 2.227 billion was due to Gate Revenue. (74.25m x 30)
I should have said home game to be clear. Should not assume others understand the intent .
( home teams collect gate receipts)
@MarkoRock, I said each team in my initial response, not sure why you dragged out the further replies, and I’ll leave it at that.
Go read my 1st reply to you- I actually said home attendance. So I could say the same to you. Anyway have a nice day.
@MarkoRock, actually your reply started out with “no”, so you weren’t acknowledging it, causing it to be dragged out.
Here comes the obvious negotiation game now. You give us this and we’ll give you that. Hey you guys, how about just give us some baseball, preferably with some fans.
The players union rejected this offer because they think the league is trying to take away their leverage for the new CBA negotiations.
162 or GTFO – play 7 inning double headers again if you want to play less days. Start the season May 1 and have the World Series end on December 1. That doesn’t interfere with any other sports. These are easy solutions the idiots at the top of MLB can’t fathom.
7-inning Double Headers don’t belong in MLB: The Show…. let alone real baseball. Play REAL Doubleheaders & Extra Innings games or GTFO.
@Curveball This!!!! No 7 inning double headers and no man on second to start every extra inning. Play real baseball.
“There are no solutions–only tradeoffs.”–Thomas Sowell
Love Thomas Sowell. Very intelligent human being.
I am so tired of both MLB and the MLBPA and it is just going to get worse and worse as the CBA expires. I expect a long strike or work stoppage in 2022. Neither side cares about the fans. No wonder people, like myself, continue to lose interest in baseball.
yet you still post here
Even though I am losing interest, this is a public site that I am allowed to express my thoughts just like you can Marty.
Why do you have thoughts about things you have no interest in?
Where did he say no interest? Why do you comment on posts you can’t be bothered to actually read?
There is a Pro Hockey Rumors site. Not sure if hockey is your sport, but perhaps you’ll give us a clue.
I love all sports, Rob. I have followed baseball since 1965 when I turned 7 years old. In my opinion, neither side gives a hoot about the fans. I am tired of all of the fighting in the public and social media. Just because Hockey is my favorite sport does not mean I can’t be a fan of other sports.
There have been strikes and lockouts and fighting between the players and owners far before social media.
Please tell me which major sport cares about the fans.
Curling……..?
Ahhhh shiiiii here we go again
Can these two sides at least agree on that they don’t agree on anything?
The offer was fine, but there is no reason for the MLBPA to agree to anything that might be used in the next CBA. In the past, the two sides could bridge any minor gaps and move on. Not so now.
The MLBPA was often called the strongest union in the world. While that was hyperbole, they were easily the strongest in all of professional sports and all the other sports benefited from the work Miller and Fehr did for the MLBPA, and certainly the players did. Money was coming in, so both sides have co-existed peacefully since 1994. The problem now is MLB and the owners are used to getting their way the last few CBA’s. Most of the people in MLB front offices are not experienced negotiating with a strong players’ union. Many were kids the last time there was a significant labor issue, and that’s why there will be no new CBA on December 1. The MLBPA brought in Bruce Meyer, a highly experienced and tough sports labor negotiator, two years back to prepare for this battle. It’s going to be unpleasant.
You are very correct. That’s why I look forward to the owners saying “thanks but no thanks” to the MLBPA and simply replacing them with minor league players who play for the love of the game and will be thrilled for the new opportunity. Those game’s I will pay for. The only ones
Wait, bigjon, if you think people would rather watch Jo Adell than Albert Pujols…. wait, no, how about Korey Lee over Jason Cast…no, hold up, hold up…. Okay, if you think people would rather watch a minor leaguer over 40-year-old hustler Nelson Cru…What?!
Nuh uh, nuh uh. I don’t buy it. I’d rather see the old limping dude trying to run the bases because he didn’t know how to call it quits 7 years ago.
Anybody on the 40 man roster is part of the MLBPA. They would not be playing. It would be the scrubs that are not good enough to play in the majors that you would be seeing instead of Mike Trout and Mookie Betts.
It’s all about making baseball more appealing to the low attention span generation: shorten the season, limit mound visits, limit pitching changes, 7 inning double headers, man on second to start extra innings, innings clocks, etc. Stop watering down the sport to appease fair weather fans.
All of these so called moves to speed things up are negligible. How about less time between innings? Oh no.. can’t do that, the ad revenue will suffer.
They can go back to watching cage fighting, Anyway i dont understand there just going to be playing on there phones anyway
Lessen penalties for pitchers hitting batters, but allow batters a 30-second response time before the fight is broken up?
Then both players sit out for one inning unless they use one of their outs automatically in the following inning – the younger gens do live their fist-a-cuffs
Allow one roided out Barry Bonds type on every roster. That era of baseball was exciting to watch. /S
This is an incredibly stupid take.
Without an infusion of new fans, baseball will die with us. Do you really want that?
All media requires new fans to succeed, especially a sport like baseball. We have an aging fan base and if we don’t attract millennials and gen z, there won’t be a MLB by 2040 because all the baby boomers are starting to die. Also the game has been drastically changed several times in the past. None of the current proposals are anything as drastic as lowering the mound…
Yes some of the proposals are freaking dumb af, like the extra innings bs but 7 inning double headers aren’t that bad.
One good executive order by the governor of Arizona precluding spring training in the midst of the high second wave Covid numbers there should decide the issue.
Captain Dunsel:
Great idea. Then all the clubs that have ST in AZ move to TX or FL and all AZ gets out of it is lost revenue.
The teams could move spring training to their home park and their alternate site. Then the two squads could play each other.
Yeah TX and FL will take if that happens. Look at the trends with everyone moving from the covid-regulation-heavy states to those two alone? Those states, like NY, will need to be bailed out to survive because they won’t have the tax base of this continues, which will compound the problem those states created.
That’s not meant to take away from your covid-conscientious governor’s ruling, just speaking factually. Let’s face it, people gonna baseball.
The parties should just negotiate until July and then play a 60 game season with expanded playoffs!
No, and you must be my Uncle Chuck… Are you?
As a jays fan I want 7/8 playoff teams a league, DH take it or leave it, but going forward, I want to think my team has a chance to get in The dance every year, Even if yanks and Sox spend half a billion combined.
Your team is owned by a multi-billion dollar conglomerate that has more money than the Yankees and RedSox and play in a city the size of Chicago. Maybe the issue is that the Jays don’t spend enough and develop talent to win – why should we reward mediocrity.
Plus, let’s say the Yanks and RedSox are 95 win teams. Why should their fans have meaningless games in September then. – or why watch most of the season if the playoffs are easily attained. Remember, we aren’t adding more meaningful games, just different teams would be involved.
Preach
Canadians, lol. Well, thanks for hockey, at least you did that right.
Clipper- the phrase people in glass houses comes to mind.
Clipper makes a harmless joke, Marko angry again. Rinse and repeat.
How many games are we getting in the strike shortened 2022 season? 100? 80? 60? No season at all?
That last one seems likely.
2
Wow, what a shocker!
Now lets see what Manfred and MLB have up their sleeve.
And there’s not supposed to be any crying in baseball…
Light the expanded playoffs on fire and let us never speak of them again.
Thx god. Hopefully no expanded playoffs
Love your comment, my God is bigger.
Bunch of babies! If I was an owner I would tell them to F off and cancel the season then. They won’t and shouldn’t get every little thing they want, it’s a 2-way street. Players union hasn’t given up a damn thing in order to negotiate. I applaud the owners.
right. sure you wolnt alienate a lot of fans and harm the chances of getting the next CBA done that way.
They have a contract/deal for this year. Imagine you signed a contract for a product for 5 years. With one year left, the bank says, time to renegotiate on terms you don’t like. Why should you have to do that?
Read your loan contract. You may be surprised to see that the bank can call in the loan at any time.
Not if I own my house.
@tanner You realize there is absolutely nothing to negotiate right? There is a contract in place for 162 games to be played this season. That contract is what the players just decided to play by this season.
It’s the owners that are trying to negotiate a new deal to get their way. The players aren’t obligated to negotiate. Just because someone offers to buy your house doesn’t mean you have to accept it, or even make a counter offer. You (and the MLBPA) can just say no thanks and go about your business. Doesn’t make you a bad person.
Read up on the commercially viable component of a force majeure clause. The owners could decide to play hardball and cancel the season until fans can get in the seats to pre-pandemic numbers.
MLBPA: youtube.com/watch?v=vkOJ9uNj9EY
Wow! That’s some awful music.
wut.
Get ready for a baseball strike in 2022. Almost guaranteed to happen, unless a miracle comes along and Manfred gets fired (wishful thinking). I miss the days of Bud Selig. He may have been old school and tough, but at-least he kept the players Union in check since the strike
Manfred is an extention of the owners. unless they are replaced (obviously not going to happen) it doesnt matter what figurehead is in charge.
I hate everyone.
Well, everyone hates you, so fair is fair.
I wonder if the players union is against expanded playoffs or they just feel they should get a bigger share of the profits. I can see purists want baseball’s traditional limited playoff field but in the days of tanking, teams like Seattle just won’t spend any money despite lots of potential revenue if they feel they aren’t likely to be competitive. Having a better chance to at least sniff a playoff race will convince many ownership groups to spend some money and score points with their fans, if nothing else.
The players are against expanded playoffs because it is bad for their bottom line. The integrity of the game that many of us discuss is not the top priority. It has nothing to do with Mike Trout making the playoffs to make players feel like winners. If the league gave free agency after 2 years, we’d have expanded playoffs tonight.
The only way expanded playoffs should occur is if a) players get something awesome in return – like free agency in 3 years like the nba and b) a 50/50 split on all dollars earned.
i dont think it would take that much. the players are using the expanded playoffs like the DH id say. the owners really want the expanded playoffs like they think the players want the DH. the reality is both benefit both parties, but both are or are thought to be big chips that can be exchanged for a truely larger prize.
Correct, they are bargaining chips. But the expanded dh isn’t that big of a deal any longer. There are what 5-6 pure DHs in baseball now as most teams just use a bench player. Expanded playoffs are hundreds of millions of dollars. It’s not comparable.
Honestly, it would be fair for the players to ask for 1 year less service time prior to free agency for each playoff team added, a minimum salary of 1 million and a 75 million salary floor. It’s that valuable. The DH is like my Cubs adding Trevor Williams.. Expanded playoffs is Trevor bauer.
but you have to see my point. the owners are deluded enough to think the players care that much about the DH to the point where they can get anything over on them if they let it happen. that could be what’s holding it up and its darn joke if it is,but i wouldnt be shocked.
I get it. I think the owners genuinely think the DH means a lot to the players but it doesn’t. It’s a nice to have but not critical. The players got rolled in the last 2 CBAs. I mean last time, I think the main players get was more room on the team bus. The owners are going to keep offering silly offers thinking the players might take it – they won’t this time. Yes, totally deluded.
At this point, this is solely about the $$$ of expanded playoffs wrapped in a package pretending it is about safety, the DH, etc. I mean expanded playoffs is so bad for the players that 100% of all the revenue going to the players for expanded playoffs would still be a bad deal because of the negative impact on salaries.
I see on this board a lot of anti-union notion that the players should be happy to play and are playing to win – as if the owners are doing them a favor paying them anything at all. The players need to hunker down and do what is best for their workers and if that means no DH in 2021 or rule changes, so be it.
These sides need to play the 2021 season like it is 2019 and work on 2022 and beyond moving froward. This is a joke and and a disservice to the game they are both ruining. And that will cost both a lot, lot more than anything they do this year.
Teams will still tank. Look at the nba or the Jets/Jaguars.. Maybe teams like Seattle should invest in talent and develop players so they can win ballgames. Most fans don’t like expanded playoffs because it ruins the regular season, which is what this sport is – a regular season sport. It disincentives teams to go from a 90 win club to 100 and rewards mediocrity plus it creates meaningless September baseball as all the good teams will be in the playoffs come June. So basically, mlb will become the nba – then why play 162 at all. .
the funny thing is, even with the great relations between the league and the PA and the lottery, the NBA’s and NHL’s tanking issues are perhaps the worst in the Major sports. in the NFL it’s quick to rebuild and in the MLB the only teams that tend to need rebuilding are ones who give out bad contracts. (and even some of those contend still)
Tanking is a good business model. You save hundreds of millions, your fans accept it as “necessary” and you rake it in.
One of the things the new CBA needs to do is incentives profitability tied to winning. So much money in MLB is tied to local TV deals not national like the NFL. I mean, do the A’s make much more whether they win 70 or 90? Is there any real incentive to pay good players rather than letting them walk. And if the owners are making even more guaranteed, there is even less incentive to spend.
mils100:
The owners are billionaires. Baseball is a business, but most of these guys don’t acquire a baseball team for the purpose of making money. If you have billions already, there are a lot of easier ways to make more money than you get from the business of baseball.
They own teams for the prestige. Most of these guys have huge egos, and nothing is better for the ego than winning. So tanking may be smart business, but owners are going to get impatient if that tanking doesn’t yield results, and sometimes it doesn’t. So if you’re a FO guy for a tanking team. you pray that it works, or you’re looking for a new job.
Owning a baseball team is like running a printing press. Sure, Steinbrenner wanted to win. Owning a team is definitely a nice side hobby but it is a side hobby that will net them tons of money. I mean the Royals’ owner made 1 billion dollars in 20 years and its the Royals and that was just on the sale not the yearly revenue. And it’s risk-free w/ anti-trust exemptions.
For many owners, winning is a nice side benefit and is good for business. There’;s still this weird notion that this isn’t a giant multi billion dollar business first and foremost. I don’t see the Orioles, Tigers, Rockies, etc. too concerned about winning.
Unfortunately, fans accept tanking as if it is necessary to win – it isn’t and that a low payroll team is somehow an accomplishment. Tanking is a gimmick to save hundreds of millions of dollars and has no connection to winning.
No connection to winning…that’s certainly an interesting take.
Actually the NHL has a salary floor and a draft lottery so there is no wide spread tanking . Teams do rebuild but its not in league with MLB where in any year recently you had a third of the teams tanking.
It’s actually the opposite. Knowing there are more playoff spots likely means teams spend less as they realize it takes less to get in. Better for the fans and possibly more money at the gates but less money spent on talent. Thats why owners are in favor
just making it to the playoffs doesnt keep fans for long enough. eventually your expectations go up. no fan says “man I hope we are a first round out” more then two years in a row unless straits are truely dire.
Who’s shocked?
Letsgopadres – I was 1st and I’m still shocked
Of course they rejected it. It made too much sense.
Isn’t the playoffs what you try to get too? I don’t get it. Having extended playoffs is great for the league and the fans. Players all they are thinking of ia the money. This cba was fair. Players have it the opposite. They think having extended playiffs hurt. Nope have extended playoffs will get players more money. Players are for not wanting extended playoffs
Are you a bot?
None of this is true, but thanks for trying.
The players don’t get paid in the playoffs. The owners would get a half billion more just in TV money from the expanded playoffs and they are not offering to share any of that TV money with the players.
The CBA says play 162 games and pay the players for 100% of their contracts with no expanded playoffs. Let’s play ball.
The players do get paid in the playoffs. They get a cut of gate revenue.
I think what Koamalu is saying is they don’t get paid their fair share
@thelegendaryharumph
The get exactly their fair share. They gets what they negotiated for which is weighted as more than half of the early games in a series. What that means for all of the people here who don’t both to think or don’t have the ability to do so is that the players valued guaranteed income for the games that will happen in a series (example 60% of the gate for the 1st 4 games in a 7 game series) and are willing to forgo the opportunity to make more overall by say taking 50% of each game actually played. Further – guaranteed contracts work the same way you sign it and you get paid even if you suck going forward, get injured etc. Its classic risk and reward relationship.
Bonus math- 50% of people are below average.
Love baseball but never seen anything like it the owners/employees just don’t give a damn about satisfying customers
It is going to get 10x worse next year. Lot of bad blood, and the Billionaire owners continuing to cry poor are going just throw gas on the fire.
Seemed like a good deal to me
There is little chance the owners will accept paying the players 100% of their contracts unless they get the expanded playoffs and/or they are able to have fans in the stands—-which doesn’t look likely any time soon.
What? They didn’t agree to 8 less games? Thats tear ribble. (Rolls eyes)they have 3 weeks to figure it out.
I’d like to see an estimate of what the additional revenues are for the expanded playoffs, since the owners want to retain them. Losing eight early-season games is probably less.
why cant they have both, realistically?
Current TV deals are about 2 billion a year. My guess would be 100-200 million a year.
Current television deals all feature ESPN way overpaying for broadcast rights. Why? Because they don’t have a viable business without the broadcast rights. Where does the money come from? Carriage fees that every cable provider pays. ESPN gets something north of $8 from every cable provider for every cable subscriber. You pay whether or not you watch or not. The problem is that people are cutting the cord. When you cut the cord ….. no more $8 a month for ESPN. The golden pile of cash is evaporating and that is why you have to subscribe to ESPN+ as they are trying to make up that revenue and they know it will all be streamed ultimately anyway.
Expanded playoffs would bring in $455 million in TV revenue for the owners. Unknown from ticket sales and other fan related revenue.
In other news: the sun still set in the west tonight…
What Would Theo Do?
I think history will show that he would make brilliant moves for a few seasons, spend the owners money correctly, then incorrectly, make irreparable damage to the fabric of the organization, then skip town.
Manfred and Clarke should be banned from the game. Both are sinking America’s past time.
Be Careful! Marty and Rob will jump on this comment.
Good, let them. And I’ll let them know how stupid they are.
The one thing I think we can all agree on is that this topic generates a lot of ignorant positions on both the pro-player and pro-owner sides. Sensible takes are like trying to find a needle in a haystack, though there are always a few worth reading.
More importantly, we already went through this once last season and it was exhausting. As such, I think I’m gonna sit this one out and just see what happens. Neither the owners nor MLBPA are worth getting worked up over, as both parties acted like children the last time. And frankly, I have better things to do than watch the same process repeat itself again, especially with contentious CBA negotiations right around the corner. I’ll save my energy for that.
Sheagoodbye – that’s a good take.
Here’s what is going to happen:
80% – owners have enough alternative revenue for some teams to not lose money without significant fan attendance. They will probably find some way to help teams that are hemorrhaging badly. Something similar to regular revenue sharing. Then they play 162 or as many as can be based on covid cancellations/ rescheduled/ municipal prohibitions against playing at all.
20% – the overall revenue picture is worse than non-owners (fans, players etc.) know and there is actually money to be saved by playing fewer games, but still having a season. Similar to last year
The really interesting thing will be after the session. Is covid vanquished or is it part of the new normal for another year or two or three. How much has the fanbase turned away from watching baseball?
Bottom line is that players are entertainers who don’t have the ability to go out on their own and individually practice their art. They can’t record a video of hitting a baseball and get paid on YouTube. Players need the infrastructure that owners provide (yes even when they negotiate for public funds to provide for those stadiums).
Owners are growing revenue streams (games, streaming, etc.) not the players. If players aren’t capable of negotiating a deal where owners still get a risk adjusted return for their investment- said return is cash flow / earnings, asset appreciation and ego gratification in total. Then owners won’t engage in the negotiation with the players to pay the players more.
Guaranteed contracts are very valuable to the individual players that have them. The larger the total dollar amount of those contracts then the less upside profits available for owners. Keep squeezing that and owners have less incentive to drive the business because they do all the work but don’t keep enough of the potential (Non-guaranteed!!!) gain.
Players are employees, they don’t get to share upside profits, look at the books etc. If they want those things then they have to be partners and take a proportion of revenue and divvy it up how ever they decide. Players aren’t currently sophisticated enough to know what type of working arrangement they are trying to negotiate- employee compensation model or partner compensation model.
2022 will still have covid limitations in all likelihood and CBA Negotiations have no clear working relationship to leverage so don’t expect baseball in 2022.
You nailed it . The MLBPA seem to want the best of both models. There will come a point owners will say WE are done. And cancel the season until Revenue can get back to pre-covid numbers.
I am not pro Owner . I am pro-baseball the the MLBPA are playing with fire.
Good actual take (unlike mine).
That Jon Heyman tweet, sure they would. It’s like the top baseball writers are PR for owners.
All of the MSM are PR propagandists for the Corporations these days. Globally.
I debated commenting on this article but what the hell, I’m done binge watching House Hunters. The owners are -once again- trying to break the union, it’s never worked before & it’s not going to work now. They live in a bubble & are so far out of touch with reality it’s actually comical, there is a big gap between being a clown & being a fool, but once again they’ve found a way to cross it. Ahahahaha!
Here’s what’s really comical about that. If the owners decide to stop playing, the players have zero. However, if the players decide to stop playing, the owners have plenty.
The owners cannot “stop playing”. They have a contract with the players. After 2021 they can choose to lock out the players and even bring in scabs, but we saw how that worked out the last time. They won’t pull that again.
Remember, the owners just signed huge new national TV contracts that are not guaranteed if they lock out the players.
There are many more people with money that would love to own a team and even set up a new league if MLB tries that again than there are players with the level of skill that MLB players have. Many people on here already complaining the talent has been watered down.
Probably should have just stuck to house hunters. The vacation homes episodes are the best.
I’m a butterfly anthropologist and my partner is a personal shopper for house pets. Our spending limit is $2.3 billion dollars.
Lol, there it is!
If they’d have been willing to accept it, then why didn’t they or don’t they submit an offer stating it? Not to mention, while players aren’t thrilled about expanded playoffs, that doesn’t appear to be the main issue they have.
MLB waited to long to present the changes. A number of players have made arrangements for housing and travel including their families. Some players have reported. (Rehab) There are players who reside outside of the U.S. who had to be in country by now.
There were no changes except naming exactly how many games and approximately when to start the season. We already knew that the owners were proposing pushing back the season and playing fewer than 162 games. Everything else is the same.
I don’t understand why the league thought this would work. The MLBPA already rejected separate proposals for shortened seasons as well as the DH/expanded playoff trade (the PA’s position is that whatever benefit Universal DH might have for older sluggers, it is more than outweighed by the lack of scarcity of playoff spots meaning most teams are content not to spend in free agency)
So MLB is like “what if we combined those two proposals they didn’t like, would they take it then?
You have to offer them something they actually want, you don’t have leverage here! If you want expanded playoffs or a pushed back season because you think it will push up revenue, then you should probably outline how that revenue would actually be shared with the players. Who are currently being frozen out in free agency for the third or fourth straight year. It’s just a naked request for “more money, please” without any justification.
they dont understand what the players actually want. they think the DH, shorter season, or pushed back season are huge chips when the reality is most players either could care less or hate these ideas. they need to learn to put a better offer on the table.
why on Earth would the players have preferred a delayed season? the owners suck at “negotiating.”
Eight games compared to 164 games is a little less than 5%. What a BS response from the players.
Tony Clark is a cancer to this league. Replace him
I think the owners are going to continue to push for expanded playoffs even after this is over. They obviously make bank on them. I hate that idea even more than i hate starting a runner at 2nd.
Owners trying to negotiate through the media is sickening. Keep your negotiations private. The point of the whole thing is that the players do not have to accept anything less than a full 162 game season and full pay and because they played games last season there is no way the owners can say its not possible.
It means nothing that the owners were “willing to push back the season without expanded playoffs and the universal DH”. What they are asking for is concessions on player salaries after the players took almost all of the hit in their wallets last season while the owners took just a tiny hit. MLB has said alternately that they lost $2.8 billion in revenue and $100 million per team in revenue. Even if you believe the larger number, and since only one team has opened its books I tend to disbelieve either number, the players took a $2.4 billion cut in salaries ($60 million per team on average) while the owners took on just $20 per team on average in lost profits.
The players have been proposing the universal DH in negotiations for the last 2 CBA and the owners have shot it down each tie because it will cost the owners money. The DH makes about $5 million more than the average for position players.
Owners:
Play the 162 game season.
Pay the players what they are due by contract.
When its possible to start letting in more fans, do so.
If you want expanded playoffs, be prepared to pay the players a fair portion of the additional half billion in TV revenue you will get.
And STOP leaking negotiations to the media.
I agree Koamalu
@PadsFans, How do you get $2.4 billion? There are 30 teams so that would be $1.8 billion.
@PadsFan The owners actually Lost 6.5 billion in revenue and took a Billion in Losses.
(negative income)
The players did not lose money they still got paid a percentage of their regular salary. They had positive income. To say players took most of the hit is wrong – misinformation.
And this is why as with Football 4 years ago I’ll walk away from baseball. Greed in a time of need.
I actually think this was a brilliant offer by the owners. Theyre really giving the players a deal to get what they want. They also knew the players had to turn it down to keep ANY leverage for next season. Smart move.
I agree that it was a good deal. It shows the unwillingness of the players to negotiate. When you don’t respond it makes you look greedy.
Could MLB start the season on time, have the DH, and expanded playoffs without the players approval?
I believe they can.
Since they’re going with the original 162, and same playoffs, they can delay the season (and spring training) for 2 weeks and still end the season before Thanksgiving.
The way Tony Clark is going about things I can definitely see a long Lockout after this season when the CBA expires!!
We will be lucky to see any baseball next year. All the other leagues were able to work together during the pandemic but the relations are so toxic now in baseball.
Both Clark and Manfred need to go, but especially Clark. If the other party gives you what you want and is even willing to concede on things it wants, the correct answer is, “Yes, thank you.” I intend to enjoy the hell out of this season because I honestly expect there to be a work stoppage for the CBA negotiations. As much as these two make up reasons to argue, that stalemate may last well into 2022. I wouldn’t even be shocked if 2022 were canceled in its entirety. Does either side care at all that the fans fuel the game and if they lose us, both sides lose more than if they just gave in on some of their demands?
I am with you 100% for the good of the game both need to go and likely both negotiating teams. They are doing long term damage to the game.
Unless something changes we will likely not see baseball at all in 2022.
Bingo
I don’t even pretend to understand what the two sides are thinking when negotiating a deal to play.
If both sides spent less time in front of a microphone, and more ironing out a deal, we would all be better off.
In the words of an old West Texas Oilman, “ If something is inevitable, you might as well just sit back and relax”.
I’m. Retiree and a season ticket holder, so I hope the two sides quit bickering, and strike a deal. They are acting like the federal government.
Amazing how twisted things have become with the former national pastime. MLB including MLBPA has lost me as an ardent fan. I’ve stopped attending games and no longer play fantasy baseball after 25+ years. Going to a game used to be an only decision of where and when. Now it’s automatically a no. I can’t be bothered anymore. I watch some games and follow a couple sites. NBA I never engage with it at all anymore. NFL is maybe yes maybe no for the SB and that’s it now. Last two leagues used their slanted agendas and faux activism to eliminate my interest in their products. MLB is working towards the same apathy for me. I hope we have a good, long and competitive season this year. LAD,SD,Atlanta,NYM,NYY, Toronto and maybe Minnesota allow do well
MLB was willing to give up 8 games, pay the players for a full 162 games and they were going to forego expanded playoffs? Maybe this problem is so misunderstood because some members of the media believe anything MLB says, no matter how ridiculous.
I know the owners have their own motivations, but delaying the start of the season can only improve the chances that players (and fans) will be vaccinated for more of the season. It also should increase the fan in person attendance which is going to be critical in maintaining and growing the fan base in an increasingly competitive sports market.
Start on time, 162 games, traditional playoffs and eliminate the DH from the AL.
If both sides would just stop negotiating in public, fans wouldn’t have to choose sides. By publicizing this fiasco, each entity attempts to paint the other as bad guys. Everyone is losing money. Fans are losing patience. There is an agreement in place for this year. Owners want it changed. Players need more on the table to agree. What’s not to understand? Get back to the table and hammer out a new CBA and play ball. Leave the fans out of it.
I don’t think the MLBPA is acting in the best interests of the players, particularly the pitchers. No MLB pitcher logged more than 50-84 innings last year. For the sake of their arm’s health, starting pitchers shouldn’t zoom back up to 30 starts and 200+ innings this year. Virtually all starting pitchers should be on an innings limit this year, maybe 20 starts and 120-140 innings. Therefore, a slightly reduced 154 game schedule is actually something that would benefit starting pitchers’ health. It would reduce the MLB clubs’ temptation to push starters during the stretch run of this season. So, I think the MLBPA should have more seriously considered the owners’ proposal and/or made a counter offer.
MLBPA has never acted in the best interest of the pitchers. Otherwise they’d advocate for changes to improve the health of pitchers. An arm goes down, another job for another pitcher. That’s fine with MLBPA. They won’t lift a finger improving the health of pitchers because it will hurt the hitters. Hurting hitters is a no-go.
Let them play! Let people accept their own level of risk and go or not go to spring training. Enough already. I hope the MLBPA rejected this because they want things as close to back to normal as possible as soon as possible
They obviously aren’t ready to start in 2 weeks.. A delay of 1 or 2 months until more get players (and fans) vaccinated will help the game overall. Players seem to forget all the games that had to be canceled or delayed because players and entire teams got sick. We are so close, it is stupid to argue over such nothingness.
Bingo
These morons are acting like Congress is their role model. Exactly the same.
CANCEL the season then, if the ” UNION ” don’t want to play.. This is all about the union. Just because 1 more team is added for the playoffs is stupid.
except for the media, i’ve seen 9 people who support a DH in NL.
Make it 10