8:24pm: Third baseman Mateo Gil will also be part of the Rockies’ return, Ken Rosenthal and Nick Groke of The Athletic tweet.
8:15pm: Left-hander Austin Gomber is one of the players who will go to Colorado, Goold tweets. Nightengale reported Friday that Gomber was likely going to be in the trade.
6:51pm: Colorado and St. Louis seem to be on the verge of a major trade centering on star Colorado third baseman Nolan Arenado, but it’s not yet clear whether the deal will go through as early as Monday night. The swap still hasn’t been submitted for approval to the union and the league office, according to USA Today’s Bob Nightengale, who adds that “it will take at least another day, if not longer” to become official. On the other hand, though, Patrick Saunders of the Denver Post tweets that all parties could sign off on it sometime tonight.
Regardless of whether this trade takes place Monday, it does appear it’s going to happen. According to Jim Bowden of The Athletic, the Rockies and Cardinals had “intense moments” during negotiations this past weekend, but the blockbuster is still likely to go through by Tuesday. Furthermore, Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch notes that the Cardinals are optimistic the transaction will occur.
Because of the complicated financial hoops the teams have to jump through to complete this trade (Colorado is set to absorb $50MM of Arenado’s remaining money, some of which will be in deferrals), it remains unclear whom the Rockies will receive in return for the longtime face of their franchise. But Arenado – who has a no-trade clause – seems eager to head to St. Louis, as he has given his written consent for a trade to the Cardinals, Tim Brown of Yahoo Sports reports. Arenado is in line to receive an extra year and another $15MM tacked on to the six seasons and $199MM on his Colorado contract if the Cards do acquire him.
Best corner infield in baseball?
Defensively yes
Chapman+Olson > Nolan+Goldy alllllll day come on now.
STL still top 3 or so, but the A’s OWN this category in 2021.
Rendon and Walsh you just wait and see
With Chapman coming off hip surgery, this is FAR from a true statement
Idk it’s close but I think Goldy>Olson outweighs Chapman>Nado
Yeah 26 year old 1B rookies have such great track records of long term success!
Every metric shows arenado is the better defensive third basemen. I’d take the Matt’s on age alone. But talent wise. Cardinals are better
Olson’s defense is the best 1B defense ever seen by anyone. Goldy is elite defensively and top 3 for sure, but Olson is on another planet and is redefining the position (defensively, Goldy has him on offense, but Oly hasn’t peaked with the bat yet).
Olsen had a 103 Wrc+ in 2020. As a first baseman.
And his defense was seen as a negative per fangraphs. Just stop
@Marty – LOL. Keep that optimism up. Eventually you’ll be successful in convincing yourself.
@lurking (corny, trolling user name) You are using a third of season 2020 stats to judge a player. What a joke.
You “just stop.”
@hashtahjimboutonwasright – I know what I see, and being you dont actually watch baseball, you will never see what I see and instead be a clueless stat hound, or lame homer. Have fun with that.
Olson is a freak defensively. He is fun to watch.
Every metric? In 2018 and 2019, Chapman was the superior defender. He has a higher career UZR/150, nearly as many range runs above average and over half the total DRS Arenado has had in his career despite Arenado having more than 2.5x the amount of innings played at third than Chap.
FanGraphs’s defensive ratings are adjusted to position. First basemen are notorisously punished by it. Albert Pujols, Todd Helton, Jeff Bagwell, Freddie Freeman and Adrian Gonzalez are all seen as negative defenders by it. The last player with more games played at first base than any other position and to have a positive defensive rating by FanGraphs since 1980 is Keith Hernandez, and he’s only seen as a slighty above average defender at just +5.9. Since 2015, Olson ranks 4th in DRS, 2nd in UZR/150, is second in range runs above average and has the highest first base defensive rating by FanGraphs. So yea, I’d say he’s one of, if not the best defender at 1B.
You’re trying to proclaim they are the *best* combo
Of course I’m looking at their most recent stats
Chapman has to prove his health. Hip surgery is a huge deal! Look at Corey Seager 2019. The power was down, the ability to check his swing was decreased. Assuming health with that type of injury is extremely biased in this conversation.
Olsen has to rebound in every facet of the game. There’s no way they are the best corner infield combo right now. they could be by mid year. But now? That’s laughable. If you can’t admit that, says a lot about your opinions
He really is making plays there no one else has and redefining the 1B position.
Matt Chapman’s only defensive equal is Brooks Robinson. A’s aren’t even getting a SS this year because he plays both SS and 3B – no one else has been that dominant on defense since Brooks.
They are currently nowhere near as elite with the bat as they are with the glove, I’ll give anyone that, but both are still young and haven’t hit their ceilings yet and have flashed elite at times. If they both went off for a full season at the plate and with the glove, they’d be top 5 MVP vote getters for sure.
I never argued they were the best all-round combo, just defensively, because that was the statement made at the top.
Moving the goalposts to win the argument = troll. Bye.
Statement at the top is “best corner infield in baseball”
Why would that NOT be every facet?
Every comment I’ve made has been about their entire game. You’re replying to the 2nd comment maybe, but not the top. Nice try
“mnsportsfan46 mins ago
Best corner infield in baseball?
REPLYFLAG
pmccurry5643 mins ago
Defensively yes”
That is what I replied to. Defensively, no. All-round, sure maybe. Good to know you actually did know who I was replying to, but decided to argue/troll anyway. Gross. Bye.
Or I looked only after you accused me of moving the goalposts. Then guessed?
But yeah. Everyone wants to attack you Marty just to make you look bad. You’re that important. It’s not like I replied to 5 other people with the exact same logic
Oh wait
You could have added @pmcurry and avoided all the confusion. You know, since you didn’t reply to the first comment and without an @ sign, there’s no way to know who you’re replying to. But again. My fault you were unclear. Yep
John Olerud would like a word.
Yep, you definitely posted really lame takes all over this thread.
“Stop it”
Olerud is another first baseman who is seen as a negative defender by FanGraphs’ defensive ratings. He has a -45.3 mark despite having +82 career total zone runs, +19 DRS and a 5.9 UZR/150.
Judging a 1B offensively over a 60 game season is indeed questionable, but defense isn’t streaky like offense is. If you’re rated negatively defensively over a 60 game season, then you’re a negative defender.
There’s a couple issues with those who declare Chapman greater than Arenado. It’s the body of work. Chapman absolutely was elite in 2018 and 2019, but we’re talking a little over two seasons vs. Arenado’s eight. No disrespect to Chapman, who is awesome, but Arenado has been an generational elite defender at 3B for all eight seasons he’s been in the Majors. The fact he’s won Gold Gloves each season doesn’t matter as the GG has been a funky award, although it has improved in recent years, but the fact he was awarded the GG his first season and every year since tells us how he’s viewed by coaches and the analytics community that’s had greater input into the award in recent years. Chapman was not elite at 3B in 2020 and is recovering from an injury. So was Arenado, but his defense remained stellar while Chapman’s did not. Will Chapman return to an elite defender? Unknown, although his type of injury is concerning when it comes to defense. No concerns there with Arenado.
Second, while Chapman’s skills are excellent, he also benefits from the A’s use of advanced analytics and positioning. It helped turn Semien, who was regarded as a weak fielder at 2B, into a plus defender at SS. Arenado never had those benefits in Colorado. All skill.
I’ll cut and paste this from Fangraphs regarding Arenado: “He’s won a Gold Glove in every year of his career, and this isn’t a case of reputation outstripping production; DRS thinks he’s been worth a whopping 120 runs above average in his career, a full 30 runs better than his closest competition at the position. UZR is inherently more conservative, but it also thinks he’s been the best third-base defender in the game. Even Outs Above Average concurs, the rare time that every advanced defensive metric is in agreement.”
I have no horse in this race, but I’m comfortable crowning Arenado the king of 3B defense. Let Chapman come back healthy and put up a few more years. BTW Chapman is only two years younger than Arenado.
@Marty: Just imagine, there’s a whole world beyond California! Didn’t know if you knew this or not. It’s amazing!
Why all the arguments…let’s just be nice and talk baseball.
Definitely one of the best.
Nah, As are better at the very least.
I’ll say! I like this deal.
Rendon
Defensively, not a question imo
Offense is the real, and legitimate, question that still hangs over each of Goldy+ Arenado playing in STL
I’m having a hard time thinking of another one … very well could be… I’m a Reds fan and love Suarez who is great but not better than Nolan. His offense is great but the defense separates him from the conversation of others.
Thought you meant corner infielder … you meant with Goldshmidt … agreed.
Rizzo and Bryant would be in the discussion but defense wins again …
Ooo. You also have the Twins with Sano and Donaldson, Cubs with Bryant and Rizzo, the A’s with Olsen and Chapman. But the closest competition to them is either the WS with Jose Abreu and Yoan Moncada, or the Padres with Machado and Hosmer.
Abreu is a DH playing 1B, get out of here. Hosmer is proven overrated too.
Moncada and Machado are excellent though.
None of those come close to Arenado/Goldy or Chapman/Olson. The Cubs could have an argument if Bryant/Rizzo have rebound years, but the Padres, Twins, and White Sox all lag behind the A’s and the Cards in this debate.
Abreu was the best of all in the shortened season. Anyone that watched the games knows this. Moncada was slowed after a bout of COVID. If both are on this season the WS duo are as good as any of the tandems mentioned above
We are only talking defense right now though. I agree Abreu+Moncada are in the mix based off offense. Defensively, Abreu isnt in the convo or top 10.
Over the last five seasons, he’s virtually tied with Chapman for defense, and in WAR he’s third behind Rendon and Ramirez. I’d say Rendon looks like the best overall.
Rendon has an argument for best all round 3B for sure. Walsh is a rookie though.
What about the Tiges… Candelario and Harold Castro?
Without a doubt!
When it says “Colorado is set to absorb $50MM of Arenado’s remaining money”, I assume that means Colorado will agree to pay something like $7M/year for up to 7 years on the existing contract (but maybe fewer years — and therefore less money — if Arenado opts out at any point). Right?
This would make more sense to me than previous suggestions that Colorado would be “sending $50M” to St Louis.
All the ESPN outlets are reporting $50mil to Cards regardless if he opts out or not. Sounds dumb, but even seen it on the mlb network today as well.
I think he is waiving his opt out for next year and adding a year. Regardless he isn’t opting out.
The one thing I haven’t heard reported is Arenado is waiving his opt out. I think the extra year was for him to waive the NTC, not necessarily the opt out
I agree I don’t think he will opt out, but I don’t think he’s waiving it either
You might be correct. I thought I read the added year was to waive the opt out.
I thought I heard they were keeping the opt-out after 2021, and adding both an extra year at the end and an opt-out after 2022.
@oddvark. Correct. I have heard this as well.
MLB won’t allow that.
The $50 is a combination of cash from Colorado and deferrals from Arenado. It is not know in what proportion, but the Rox are absolutely NOT sending $50m in cash, let alone all at once.
What about Gorman now? Does he get moved to OF, or Arenado gets traded or opts out when he’s ready?
Gorman is going to the Rockies, obviously.
Obviously? We’ll see about that….
Nowhere in the speculated list of names does Gorman or any of the Cardinals in the top 100 prospects come up. The Cardinals got just robbed the Rockies.
And I could see the Cards trying to use Gorman in left. Then Carlson in Center or Right depending if they’re using Bader or O’Neil that day. I’m not going to mention Fowler. They seem pretty patient with outfield defense. I think Ozuna had a Gold Glove, but he didn’t look like it while he was in STL, and then Jose Martinez probably got more chances then he should have because of his bat.
If you can crank bombs they will find a spot for you. 2022 dh?
Probably deliberating over what pieces go where, I’m sure based on the initial reactions of fans rockies want more back justifiably. Hope they get more for an allstar caliber 3rd basemen while also eating 50 million than some flier boom or bust guys. Gorman should be the centerpiece.
They’re getting 150 million is salary relief. That’s what Colorado is getting.
They can get that next season, they have an all star caliber player seeking a trade or walking for nothing. If this was a pure salary dump they need only wait one season.
Buddy, teams dont pay a guy $50M to play for someone else if they aren’t getting anything amazing back.
Nolan Gorman will most likely be the Rockies opening day 3B, sorry.
They arent getting gorman, this statement by you will not age well
They will pay a Starlin Castro and 30m, though.
He thinks if he says it enough it will come true…
you really think a team’s GM is going back to negotiating a trade because of fan reactions?
He wasn’t going opt out. Do you see how much money they had to include with him to trade him? Yeah, that’s about what he’d be leaving on the table if he opted out of his current contract.
As a Rockies fan, I’d much rather be getting the five guys mentioned in the original tweet than Gorman alone. Strange as it sounds, the Rox have several good 3B prospects in their system whom Gorman doesn’t beat by very much. He’s also a long way from the majors.
Arenado’s home/away splits should have cardinal fans concerned.
Nope.
It doesn’t worry us a bit. Look at his NL central splits. Those look just fine. NL west suppresses offense as a whole. He will drop a bit, but his road splits will improve.
3/5 NL central stadiums are hitters parks
4/5 NL west stadiums are pitchers parks (yes even Chase the last few yrs)
Say he hits .265 30-35HRs 100RBIs we will take that all day with his defense.
Remember he is only getting 25mil/yr from Cards.
That shouldn’t concern the Cardinals at all (look up “Coors Effect” sometime). What SHOULD concern them a bit is a) shoulders are nasty things to hurt when you play baseball; and b) he’s turning 30 and coming off the worst season of his life.
Rox have to get players back. Trade straight for $50M is a mockery of the sport
Who said they aren’t getting players back? The initial tweet announcing that an agreement was reached listed no fewer than 5 Cardinal players.
They will get prospects back. They just won’t be worth anywhere near $50 million.
No top prospects like Gorman, etc. will go the Rockies.
Nolan is a great player, but Colorado really messed up giving him that big of a contract.
I think this trade will ultimately look a lot different than is being initially reported. On the surface it sounds absurd; Colorado sends Arrenado and 50mil to St. Louis for nothing. Guaranteed that’s not how it will look when it’s finalized.
Like the Betts deal, I feel like it was intentionally pre-leaked out, the trading team got a lot of media flack, and Col went back to the table trying to get more
I agree it will look different than originally reported
Agreed 1000 percent, leak to see how fans perceived it and it wasn’t very good. So hoping rockies can get more out of it just like Red Sox did. I’d expect at least 1 top 100 prospect and one young major league player and at the very least 1/2 boom or bust fliers.
Do you really think a teams front office gives a shiznit about what the fans think? That’s hilarious. I am a sure that a few fans feeling outraged will make them reassess their bottom line operating budgets and scouting departments. I don’t think so.
The original list of players was not nothing. Cards have a deep system and it included four guys ranked in it, plus a guy who was pencilled in as one of their major league starters. It was very far from nothing. And Arenado is a great, great player but that doesn’t mean he has value. His value was about neutral (i.e. zero).
the thing is this is hardly a salery dump. this is arguably the best 3B in baseball (and if not one of the top small handfull) and youre getting a solid part of his salery knocked off. the pieces going over are nice but they dont stack up to the talent of one of the game’s best
The Rockies aren’t going anywhere. His contract didn’t look bad 2 years ago but going forward it is under water. If they want to compete before 2028 this was probably the right move.
Nightengale wrong as always
Do the Mets have the best middle infield in baseball?
LeMahieu-Torres
Altuve-Correa
Marte-Ahmed
McNeil-Lindor
Cronenworth-Tatis Jr.
Madrigal-Anderson
Lowe-Franco might be the answer by end of season though.
I don’t see one better than Mets. Torres and Lindor isn’t really close.
You have a very good troll game going on…or you’re delusional. You manage to make almost everything about the Mets
LeMahieu and McNeil isn’t really close either; LeMahieu is better.
What??? Lol.
DJ and Torres and Altuve and Torres are the best offensively!
No, Tatis, Correa, Torres, Boegarts, Seager, Turner and Bichette are all better hitters than Lindor, but he is a better fielder than any of them. Simmons and Lindor are considered the best fielders in that order.
Torres plays in that stadium and beats up on orioles. So not him but the others sure. But Lindor defesne is a bigger gap from those players than their offense. So Lindor is better. Also buchitte and tuner do not hit better and Tatis and seager are questionable bc I want to see them next year playing 162 games. Bogarts also plays in a hitters paradise but I’ll give him the bensifit of the doubt. But I wouldn’t be surprised if Lindor would put up better numbers playing in Boston. And I don’t know how good Correra really is at hitting now.
Jim Bowden knows nothing. Promised Stanton to Dodgers, Ohtani to Yankees, Josh Bell to Yankees and said Benintendi was sure to be traded.
Never take anything he says as gospel. He’s a clown.
Defensive metrics are for people who can’t see.
Have to wonder if Mickey Calloway gets fired if Trevor Bauer could be back on the Angel’s radar.
Very good point. That could be significant. What is up with these guys and this stuff?
Jared Porter and Mickey Calloway were both recently employed by a certain team in New York…
Stop with your stupid vendetta against the Mets! What about the Cubs, Indians, Diamondbacks and Angels who all also had recently employed those guys?
Is that same team that also employed Steve Phillips, and has a current owner who had some lawsuits related to his treatment of women? Hard for me to keep track. Or is it another organization that fired its manager a year ago before he managed a game, and the same organization that had connections to Bernie Madoff and now is owned by a hedge fund type? Oh, wait. They’re the same!
My first thought.
That would make sense, as the Angels are still in desperate need of an elite starter. However, I wonder if today’s trade for Alex Cobb means that they are comfortable without going after Bauer. I’m starting to have big doubts about Perry.
Looks like Mickey Callaway may be fired soon as Angels pitching coach. Five ladies came out accusing him of lewd behaviour as he pursued them hard and requested nude pics from them. When will these dudes ever learn that this kind of stuff can and will come back to haunt them.
Let’s start the conspiracy theories: The Angels leaked the story so they could fire Callaway and sign Bauer!
OK. So, Mo Maxville has possibly redeemed himself after all of his bad wholesale sell offs of Cardinal offensive studs. Getting Nolan is massive. But, continuing with this BS metric hitting/pitching has got to stop. Let the Mikes manage/coach and get a hitting coach who has actually played.Come on man! Imagine this piece of milk fed veal telling Nolan to get that elbow up!!?!?! Get an instructional hitting guy and take the shackles off of Mike Maddox!
Championship team in our midsts! Let’s win it all or get shed of Mo and his analytic nerds!!!!
BTW: let’s let Yadi and Waino lead this charge!
Didnt this already happen 3 days ago?
They’re running one hell of an organization out in Queens. Ahahahaha!
Angels problem.
Mateo Gil has played a total of 5 of his 94 games at 3B. He’s a shortstop.
Torkelson was a 1B but the Tigers were going to make him a 3B so they drafted him as one. this may be the same.
Does anyone believe Arenado would have really opted out of the contract?
No, nor will he a year or two on, even if he has great seasons. If he does put up a great season, he could use the threat of opting out to gain a million or two more.
no one rational
Only people that think GMs make their trades based on twitter reactions