The Phillies announced that they have reinstated infielder/outfielder Scott Kingery from the injured list and outrighted him to Triple-A Lehigh Valley. Kingery cleared waivers and is no longer part of the Phillies’ 40-man roster, though he’s still with the organization.
Needless to say, this is not what the Phillies had in mind when they signed Kingery to a six-year, $24MM guarantee entering the 2018 season. Kingery hadn’t even played in the majors at that point, making his deal the largest for anyone who hadn’t yet appeared in the bigs. The former second-round pick was a top-tier prospect then, which led the Phillies to gamble on locking him up at what they thought were team-friendly prices for the long haul. He’s earning $4MM this year, and the club owes him a combined $15MM from 2022-24 (including a $1MM buyout for the last of those seasons).
While Kingery’s pact also includes team options ranging from $13MM to $15MM from 2024-26, it seems doubtful he’ll ever rake in that money. After all, the 27-year-old has failed to establish himself as a viable major leaguer, having batted just .229/.280/.387 with 30 home runs and 25 stolen bases in 1,127 plate appearances. Kingery, who’s just 1-for-19 with 12 strikeouts in the bigs this season, hasn’t played with the Phillies since May 16. He’ll now have to try to make his way back to their roster via Triple-A, where he’s a .291/.330/.453 hitter across 307 trips to the plate.
Bearded Texas Hulk
Oh wow! This kind of shocked me despite the poor numbers. They owe him a lot of cash.
Probably why they felt confident no one would claim him.
Bearded Texas Hulk
@Steve ok that makes sense! I didn’t think of that.
As his cost only increases, this feels like another Rusney Castillo situation in that I expect DD to continue to spend. if they get close to the threshold, him being off the 40 I believe means it won’t count towards it.
…and that’s exactly why the Phillies outrighted him, because they pretty much knew no one was going to claim him and assume that contract.
Actually a smart business move…saves a valuable 40 man spot, especially with all the injuries this year…a spot on the 40 is even more valuable…and the Phils did not surprise Kingery with this, probably had a convo about why this would happen
Not a “smart business move” It’s the ONLY move they had. It really is ashame, Kingery could benefit from a fresh start with another organization, but he’s pretty much untradable.
I don’t know about a benefit from a fresh start. I think he’s pretty much shown he’s a very versatile bench guy with the potential for average production at the plate which makes him the the type of guy that will get a bunch of fresh starts, like Daniel Robertson. Just not the guy you invest much in.
Perhaps, Kingery and his twin brother switched places.
That’s cool. Wilmer Flores was better than him.
Wilmer Flores’ Tears is better than him.
Wilmer Flores’ Tears likes this comment
Let’s let it go guys he loved NY if I had talent & was a Cub I would tear up if they cut or traded me he was just got caught on camera
Wilmer Flores Tears is only better than MetsFan22. And with a bar that low, I could pole vault with a cigarette butt.
Shew that long term deal ain’t looking so good now…
I don’t disagree, but $5 million per year isn’t exactly crippling a team with a $200 million payroll.
Odubel Herrera was outrighted last year and was leading off this week for the Phillies, so let’s give this some more time before we settle on “this was an epic failure”, especially given the relatively low dollar amount for such a big market team.
@lemon. Fantastic post. Great analysis. I was thinking along your line but you said it better than I would have.
They already paid the man so using it to dare other teams to take it on was bold but smart.
Odubel was outrighted because he beat a woman, not because he didnt produce.
Allegedly. Charges were dropped.
@lemon I’m liking the post for the analysis, but more so for the name. Great show.
I think a big part of the blame for Kingery has to be put on the Phillies. He was a stud prospect who should have been put at 2nd from the start. They put him at SS which he had no business playing and then tried making him a super utility guy including as a centerfielder. His bat never recovered and they killed his confidence. I wish they put him in a position to succeed at the start and then built off of that.
He hired an outside hitting coach to boost his fly ball % but made his swing more uppercut… Kindergarten screwed himself because he had no fear for $ as his contract is secure
Or he tried to improve his offensive production to attempt to be worth his contract..
I find it hilarious how so many fans think athletes seemingly enjoy taking deals that go horrible wrong
Agreed, Ace, the Phillies asked too much of Kingery and too soon.
This organization ruined any chances of Kingery having success
I think him not being able to hit ruined any chances of him having success
Yea, except that’s not the whole story. He should have been put at 2nd and left there. When he is moving all over the diamond every single day it’s going to get into a kids head. He had absolutely no chance at even being able to turn into a good hitter.
sounds like Haseley’s activation is imminent?
I think Kingery can return to the .260 20HR guy he was in 19.
Why the Phillies gave him a contract before he played a major league game I will never know…
He was killing it in the minor leagues and tore up spring training
More proof that March games are not an accurate indicator of future performance.
Lee Mazzilli for HOF
You remember darren reed? Maybe the greatest spring training player ever. When he made the team all down hill from there.
He was the 90’s version of Billy Beane
Because it could have been a steal had he lived up to his potential. Unfortunately he’s a bust.
And putting $1 million dollars on a single number on the roulette table could be a steal if your number comes up. Unfortunately it’s not usually worth the gamble.
They deals put way too much pressure on these players to deliver. Kingery has not been that bad, but he hasn’t been worth that much money either.
to be fair, he was a safer bet at his price then, say, Baldoquin was.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
1 for 19 with 12 K’s “ain’t that bad?”
Well he is broken now….I meant that as before when he was playing regularly and was pressured by the deal.
On a side note. Baldoquin is now on the newly independent Lexington Legends and is hitting over .400. Fun team to watch, Former Reds All Star Brandon Phillips is a player/part owner.
They took a calculated risk and it backfired. They could’ve saved a lot of money had he became even just a good regular. It’s not the worst practice in the world, a well managed team should be able to roll the dice on deals like this and be able to stomach the 4.5 million-ish AAV should it not work out. In another universe Kingery works out and people are questioning why he’d sign such a team friendly deal at the time.
If you’re going to lock guys up, stick with the ones with star potential. I wonder if this is where team-friendly David Fletcher is headed. He’s currently 135th in OPS out of 142 qualified players. Talk about going from underrated to overrated in a hurry.
I do wonder if he was limited to a certain position if that wouldn’t improve his hitting?
VonPurpleHays has it right. Teams are taking these kinds of risks more and more. If the Braves waited until now, could they have signed Acuna to the ridiculously lopsided deal that they did? You take your chances on these kinds of deals and you are usually either right or wrong.
White Sox have signed several of their young players to this kind of deal. Even though two are currently injured they have gotten production out of the players. It’s a business practice that is gaining steam across the league. The saying is you can’t win them all. The teams are betting that most work out and money is saved.
Most overrated thought in baseball (other than catcher). These guys grew up playing multiple positions, so moving him from 2B to SS to OF has no impact on his performance at the plate. That’s the beauty of baseball; you make a bad play in the field and you get a chance to make up for it in your next at bad (and vice versa); the two are not connected. Catcher is really the only position that can have a negative impact at the plate. You get beaten up pretty bad at catcher (and nowhere else).
I have to admit, “…you are usually either right or wrong” is a very tough statement to argue.
You have to remember this game is played by human beings with emotions and opinions, not robots. Hunter Dozier for the Royals has commented publicly that he struggled offensively when he was bouncing from 3B to 1B to RF. Some guys get anxiety and stress from the lack of certainty or from trying to learn a new position or from just doing something they’re not wild about doing.
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DM=With all due respect,what you just said is trash..
In Kingery’s place he was a very good second baseman who played just there in his professional career.
I see it with the Pirates and Tucker.
The brilliant management think that because these guys are quick and good athletes that they can play anywhere.They show up not knowing where or if they are going to play.
It is a recipe for disaster.
Each position has different responsibilities.Anyone who thinks otherwise has never played baseball.These players are expected to hop around the field and learn to play a position while playing in a ML game.
These management teams seem to sometimes lack common sense.
Good post. If you want a jack-of-all-trades, you sign a cheap veteran to do that, or maybe a low-end prospect. You don’t do that with top-tier prospects. Until he got promoted, Kingery had -0- games in the outfield.
In addition to his bad K/W in AAA, they shouldn’t have promoted him until they knew he was going to play 150 games at 2nd.
it has been said a lot in Philly, but i dont quite think that’s the real reason, especially given he did show well at times early, but has fallen off more of late.
His offense is the major issue though. Moving him Roubd shouldn’t have ruined his swing, but something did.
The idiotic regime before took care of that contract.
I remember when he was in spring training and hit over .400. Then he fell off the table. 🙁
Cap & Crunch
I think the early pre arb deals on middling players will lose some of its previous steam from the past decade. Geez these things were almost non existent till the Astros with Singelton+ almost 10 yrs ago
On guys like Tatis Soto Acuna, sure, jump right in the fire if you must, but If it were me id just go thru arbs normally with guys like Kingery Fletcher Bote White etc etc ….
The team never really gets a huge boon even if these things break 90+% right.
Randolph, Kingery, Moniak, Haseley, and even Bohm now. No wonder the Phillies had to rely on massive free agent spending to be competitive.
The Phillies drafting department has been an absolute failure for well over a decade. For fun, go back and look at the list of 1st round picks and see how many made an impact at the major league level for the club. The number is laughably low. You can’t win that way long term, you need a little home cooking too
@philliesphan77 Exactly. And people tend to forget that before the golden era (Hamels, Utley, Howard, Rollins and even Burrell slightly before that), this Phillies team was horrendous at drafting and developing. It isn’t new. They essentially struck gold once and had a nice 5 year window of great, competitive teams. That was it. They’ve struggled to develop a solid core before and after that stretch. They just consistently fail in their rebuilds.
Look at all the number one picks of all teams, not just the Phillies. Very few turned out to be legitimate stars. Some turned out to be good players, but not great. Some were complete washouts. People always rave about the Yankees and Astros farm systems, but look at the #1 pick busts they have had.
Being a #1 pick does not guarantee super stardom.
It’s a shame Bc Harper and realmuto are both excellent free agent acquisitions. Even at the price they paid. Yet outside of an above average Nola – who’s out matched as an ace- they have little to none homegrown talent
Wheeler as well.
Just goes to show that you can’t build a winner with big contracts. Even when those big contracts are good, there are smarter ways to allocate resources.
You can’t omit Hoskins who has been really good as well, despite some harsh fan reaction for some reason. Hoskins and Nola are homegrown success stories. Unfortunately, that’s about it for the Phillies.
It may sound crazy but if I were a rebuilding, low payroll team I might’ve taken a shot and claimed him. It’s only 4 million a year and he plays prime positions even if he’s not that great at any of them. Doesn’t have to hit much at all to be valuable. Crazy?
It’s even more surprising that the Mets didn’t jump on him, stash him at AAA, give him a 40 man spot and hope he has a chip on his shoulder.
I think if he ever gets to focus on one position and quit trying to lift the ball, that he’d quickly get back on track. Let him be a .275/.335 with 12-15 hr and 25 sb guy again. He needs every day at bats right now. Hope he rights the ship.
Anyone else surprised Kapler and the Giants didn’t claim him?
@jim stem: It’s not surprising at all that the Mets didn’t claim him. For starters, he’s been awful. Second, he’s owed over $14 million over the next two years. The Mets are going to have to look at re-signing Conforto, Syndergaard, and Stroman this offseason, with Alonso, McNeil, and Dom Smith looming. Plus, deGrom can opt out after next year. As rich as Cohen is, they can’t afford to blow that much money (and exceed the luxury tax) on a failed player/lottery ticket like Kingery. Third, no point in doing a division rival a favor by taking that money off their books.
They will also have the Cano money back on the books.
Would never claim him outright, but if the Phillies paid most of his contract (Rougned Odor trade to New York for example), I’d make a deal if I ran Detroit.
Odor is owed $12.5 MM per year, Kingery $5 MM per. Doesn’t really seem like a great comparison.
Player to player, no. But if Philadelphia was willing to pay most the salary it’d be worth it for another team. Not saying they would do it. I more cited him for the idea of making a trade to trim some of the salary off and get something in return.
Interesting, in that he still has 3 option years left, so they must have really soured on him. Still, it’s curios that nobody even bothered to show any interest; i.e. trying to get the Phils to eat some money or toss in another prospect or two. I saw him live in AA and was incredibly impressed; shows you what I know.
i think his approach was busted between 2019 and 2020. that along with the covid in the spring seemingly threw him all out of sorts.
Again, we don’t know everything; could be a character thing. But I’d agree that if I’m Detroit or some other cellar dweller, I would’ve tried to deal with Fuld et al to see if I could get him into my organization. I mean, either way they have to pay him.
im just telling you what ive gleaned as a Phillies fan. i dont believe there was much about character said. to me, it seems more like they were messing with his swing, broke his mechanics, and shattered his confidence. those can take a while to come back.
Bob- he looked incredible at all levels and in Spring Training- just not in the Majors. Epically frustrating
i mean, he also did have that great start in 2019, just couldnt sustain it.
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Bob-Kingery was a very fine player through AA.,but so are a lot of guys who never really make it in MLB.
They should have put him in AAA for at least half a season to see how he did.
They should have waited for his third season in MLB for a large contract.
They should have kept him at second base and let the utility players play all positions.
This is just one of many failings of the MacPhail Klentak regime.
He still has an option I believe so he’s not subject to waivers
3 option years including this one, per Jason Martinez @ Roster Resources. Makes sense; I don’t think he was ever “sent down” after he made the 40, until this year.
And yes, he is subject to waivers since they took him off the 40.
Literally the second sentence in the entire article states that he went through waivers.
Cool. I missed that part. Thanks for clarifying! Phew, I can rest easy tonight knowing the Internet police corrected me.
Tried to build a contender backward. Selling in July would be the first step toward getting it right. If that’s the direction, I’d rather have someone other than Dombo calling the shots. Wheeler goes first, right?
I mean they’re in a very winnable division somehow. So if they got hot, these comments won’t age well. But they just don’t know how to rebuild. It certainly seems like they jumped the gun early, but I remember them being praised in 2014 for the talent they’re developing, and it’s just bust after bust. They were rebuilding for close to 10 years before splurging on Harper, Wheeler and co. That’s not a short time.
His performance on the field was atrocious. How does this reflect on the Phillies as a franchise? This is business, it’s not about feelings
They have made a series of questionable moves, starting with trying to build a contender with stupid money before they had a foundation in place. That never works. It starts with drafting and player development. Not realizing that is the sign of a bad franchise. So is a guy they extended winding up a poor performer.
@Cey Hey The problem was they expected guys like Kingery, Herrera, Vinny Velo, Pivetta, Seranthony to be better than they were. The core was supposed to be there, but everyone went backwards which seemed highly improbable.
VonPurpleHayes, I understand that, but they then went on a spending spree even though those guys hadn’t panned out. They acted too fast. With the NL East looking like a one-playoff-team division, what to do next? If they are sellers in July, that’s saying it was a mistake to re-sign Realmuto and sign Wheeler. But baseball-wise, that might make the most sense. The way pitchers are dropping, someone might pay a legitimate king’s ransom for Wheeler. Maybe move Didi and Segura as well.
At the time of the Harper signing, these guys hadn’t regressed yet. That came later. And by resigning JT, they essentially still believed in this core, but so far, it’s looking like a mistake. I think the division will be too close for the Phillies to sell in July, but I do think they probably should be selling an attempting yet another failed rebuild.
The Phillies have one of the largest payrolls in MLB and haven’t reached the postseason in a decade. Forget about winning the World Series because that takes a lot of things going your way at the right time but they haven’t even had a winning record since 2011 in that huge market.
@48-team To be fair, much of that period was spent rebuilding. It’s just astonishing to see very little of that rebuild work out. Hoskins. Nola. Not much else.
They obviously need a name change
I had already relocated them for one of the NL East trash talk groups before FB decided to ban me for no reason. They became the Halifax Demon Ducks.
I also had these changes…
New York Mets – London Werewolves
Washington Nationals – Peru Howler Monkeys
Miami Marlins – Zimbabwe Zebras
Fly over fan
1 point for the London Werewolves!
Cleared waivers? That’s the shocking part of this article. Nobody was willing to pick up his remaining contract…
It’s particularly damning when you consider every team looks at the same data. The message throughout baseball is clear: Phillies, you made a mistake. Matt Klentak is vacationing and unavailable for comment.
I am in a Scoresheet dynasty league and had drafted Kingery in the minors. When he made the roster and got the contract, folks congratulated me. Year 1 was ok but he then collapsed. Same with Hiura. These guys have a promising start to a ML career and then fall off a cliff. There are others. Confused as to why they don’t improve. Convinced it’s more mental than physical.
Guys just reach a plateau and hit the wall. It’s hard to great in MLB or even good. If you think about it, only a handful of players have made the Hall of Fame. Certainly, the mental aspect plays a part in it. While MLB players make good money, the lifestyle stinks. It’s like driving a truck or being in a band. in a way. Exciting the first couple of times visiting the various cities, then the glow wears off.
People seem to have this misconception that young players only ever get better (this is not a comment directed @ you Jin). There are quite a few guys that come in, have a year or two of success and then flame out. You see it constantly with people on here making comments along the lines of, “player x won’t regress next year, he’s young and developing”.
If you’ve followed baseball for any period of time, I’m sure you can think of examples where this happened.
This happens so often that you would think fans would get use to it. Some fans loved Middlebrooks. And he started out okay, with some power. But he still had a 5/1 K/W in his rookie year, and a 5/1 in his second year.
Pitchers simply will not throw you a strike, if you swing at too many pitches out of the zone. The pattern is almost always identical. Good minor league power, with a poor zone control. You get promoted, and maintain the power. The pitchers find out that you cannot lay off a high FB, and a low and outside slider, and that will be their out pitch, in every single plate appearance.
That’s it. That’s all there is. Even guys with questionable selection, like Devers, still had a 55/31 in AA.
I agree. I think it also gets overlooked when guys can’t play defense or run well, how much extra that raises the requirements for their bat. It’s why I’m lower on Adell than some others. It’s hard to be a major league hitter, it’s hard to hit well enough to remain on an ML roster, it’s even harder when 100% of your value relies on that hitting.
I’m lower on Adell as well. He’s hit a ton of HRs in AAA, but he has a 24/1 K/W in his last 84 ABs, giving him an 82/16 K/W over 242 ABs. You can’t slug your way to success in the MLB. As a RS fan, I’ve seen the same thing with Middlebrooks, Chavis, and now Dalbec.
If you don’t make them throw strikes, then they won’t throw strikes.
They only had him play at 2nd, 3rd, SS and all three outfield positions. Maybe try to have him learn 1st, catcher and pitcher too. Or maybe give him time to learn one position well.
Great point. A (very) ew guys being good at it doesn’t mean bouncing from position to position is easy.
Evan White’s Mariners contract says hi
WASTE OF MONEY LOL! …. Then again, who am I to talk… we got some dead weight on our books now …
BBC is on his mind constantly. He can’t concentrate.
British Broadcasting Corporation? That seems silly.
Wow… not shocked no one wanted to pay that money for what he is at this point. Dude needs to go find Jesus, maybe take a vow of silence and spend a few months with monks. Once he cleanses his mind he needs to get that confidence back up, maybe plow through a bunch of corn fed midwestern chicks for another month or two. Then get back on the field and hit beach ball off a tee for a month, then go smaller maybe a volleyball, go smaller maybe a cantaloupe, go a little smaller to a softball, then after like 3 months hell be ready to hit a baseball off a tee. 3 more months he should take batting practice from a JV HS coach. About this time you shock the system and go to a full blown varisity coach throwing to him. Then in about a year you get him in Single A, let him watch for a few months then start taking grounders and BP. I feel confident that by the end of his contract you might get him back up to Triple A and hell be a solid bench bat.
Ok, maybe not, but I like the thought process. Some innovative ideas here.
Put that together in Power Point and send it to Dombrowski. You might be on to something
Cocaine is a hell of a drug
Sarcasm aside, I use to do that in softball. I’d get mired in bad slumps, and it would get inside my head. I’d go to the cage with the slowest speed until I hit a couple of ropes, then to medium, then to the fastest machine.
He hasn’t been the same since he got covid in 2020.
He was pretty bad for the most of the 2019 second half.
This is exactly why teams should not do this. Happening with Evan White now and I remember the Jon Singleton contract. Head scratcher. I have always felt Kingery wasn’t ready and would have benefited from more AAA time. I think they pushed him before he was ready because of the contract. Bad move in my opinion, though he has had a few years in the MLB now. A change of scenery might do. Angels have Gosolin from there team last year why not Kingery and a little cash get sent over. Give them Rojas.
There are examples of it working though. Look at Acuna on ATL. These are calculated risks, and honestly 5 million for Kingerey at that time was a safe bet. No one could have seen these complete drop off. He’s had eye sight issues. He’s had COVID. Everything that could go wrong, went wrong. I feel for the kid.
Yes, sure there are success stories, but Acuna came from Venezuela and didn’t get paid until 2019. His rookie season in 2018 he hit .293 with 26 HRS in 111 games. Don’t think there was in any doubt in what he could do.. unless there was contract before hand I don’t know about.
Most of these guys come from a college or high school program built for success. If were talking foreign born players who were a bust, that’s a long long list. From Hector Oliveria to Shun Yamaguchi and so on..
Right, but there are success stories and there are failures. It’s why it’s a risk. Teams figure this into how much they offer a player. To use Kingery as a reason to not try this sort of thing doesn’t make a lot of sense. Teams know they’re gambling and they know it might not work out.
There is also the CBA and a structured system to protect teams profits from this very thing and to make sure players get paid. Why would you risk the cost when you haven’t seen the bottom line performance. Yes it’s a risk just like the lottery which you don’t have to play either. Why not let them play to pay and wait till just before arbitration like 97% of contracts. Pretty sure everyone knew Mike Trout was going to be so so coming up throught the minors but didn’t make anymore than what was in the union agreement. Not sure if Arte McCourt Owned the Angels yet. Which would make sense.
I think the best part is the fact that his contract will no longer count against the luxury tax. They still pay him but it won’t count toward that so they freed up some space to add at the deadline in terms of cap space and roster space.
I’m not familiar with the Phillies at all so I’m not sure if they that was a concern or not
that’s not how it works anymore.
Maton just got sent down I’m guessing DiDi is about to be activated
Kingery for akiyama
Huira for Kingery…
And a ham Sangwidge if Joe wants one…
good to see. the extra 40 is great, and he can stick around in the Minors and work his way back.
This is why you should always trade your prospects at peak value – you do and you’ll always have a winner as most the guys never pan out.
Just look at all the prospects that were dealt for Halladay, Oswalt, Pence, and Lee. Carassco is the only highlight of those trades. You got 2 okay seasons from Santana and a D’Arnaud is a journeyman catcher.
“Just look at all the prospects that were dealt for Halladay,”
I don’t object to trading prospects for an over-the-top move, especially for an ace. But you also can’t look at one trade to make your case. There is no one best strategy, but what TB & CL are doing looks pretty good. Wait until year 6, and then trade your stars for value.
Two good prospects for 5-6 years of control will almost always provide more value than one start with one year of control.
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That was the Pirates’ philosophy all along,and it worked very well for them until the TB trade,which went against their normal operating mode.
Because small market teams can rarely afford to take a chance to pay big money for stars.
Cherington had no choice but to do what he is doing..Hopefully,he can develop fine scouting and development systems which was the Achilles heel of the previous regime.
You can’t build a winner like that. You need a lot of prospects precisely because only some pan out. Trade them all at peak value and what you get in return are declining stars. You’ll have a high payroll, big name losing team. All studies show that younger teams win over older teams. Vets that come over for prospects tend to fade quickly. Just can’t build a winner by trading all or most of your prospects for overpaid, soon to be in decline names.
There’s this false narrative that the Phillies splurged instead of rebuilding. What’s missed there is that the Phillies were rebuilding from 2013 pretty much until the Harper signing in 2019. Very few of their draft picks panned out. That’s really the issue here. Failure to scout, draft and develop talent on an organizational level. It’s unbelievable how many highly ranked prospects have been complete busts for the Phillies. So when people say “they jumped the gun and tried to buy FAs before developing a core,” while they aren’t wrong, you have to remember that they tried to develop a core for 6-7 years. This is a big market team. They also need to sell tickets, and to do that, they need talent on the field. They couldn’t develop any, so they were forced to spend. Now they’re stuck in this limbo of mediocrity. They have 3-4 of some of the best players in the league surrounded by a core who struggles with fundamentals. It’s a beautiful disaster.
It might not have helped, but they got caught speeding. Signing Santana, when they should’ve suspected that Hoskins was not an outfielder was a mistake. Promoting Kingery before he conquered AAA was a mistake. Trading Crawford was a mistake. Signing Arrieta was a mistake. Even JTR was a mistake. As good as he is, and Sanchez and Alfaro haven’t quite lit it up, he was signed before they were ready to win.
I mean, while I like Didi and JTR, between those two and Segura, they cost a lot of money, and aren’t kids.
I would still argue they went in too early. Teams have generally had more luck waiting til some of their prospect actually pan out to start spending money. If you wanted to make a signing like Harper, that makes sense to me because he’s not the type of player that comes around frequently,
But it does seem that they got anxious and went in before they had a real foundation in place, the attendance aspect is a pretty good reason for that, I guess. Perhaps I’m not familiar enough with Philly, does the team they run out there now satisfy fans enough to encourage them to buy tickets? I can understand the need to do that, but I didn’t realize that the collection of FA that they’ve put together really shifted the view of the team that much.
I guess I can see their situation as one where ownership was convinced that a 6 (or whatever amount) year window for rebuilding and being a competitive team and then ownership or the front office not wanting to realize that wasn’t realistic 3-4 years down the road and readjusting the plan. It’s not a great situation they find themselves in.
Definitely a great call on Santana. Arrieta was signed to help the young staff, and to lure in future FAs. It wasn’t meant as a win-now move, but I agree they spent too much on him, and he didn’t have a good tenure here. I don’t mind the JTR trade because Sixto had an injury history and it looks like that’s going to be an ongoing problem. As for the other spending, I think that goes to my earlier point: Phils are a big market team putting minor leaguers out there for 7 years. They needed to make some signings to sell tickets. It worked, but unfortunately it didn’t translate to success on the field. Poor decisions all around, as you pointed out. But I feel they’d be way worse without some of these signings because I have no faith in their ability to draft and develop talent.
Santana wasnt a signing that fit, but his bat would have actually fit.quite well with Harper and Hoskins could the three have been on the same team.
Cap & Crunch
Ive been following this rebuild UP since the first Osdrubel extension that kicked it off …… Was a big fan of that one too at the time
I don’t have any concrete words on it i’ll just say rebuilds are tough as sheett man; and the money goes a LOT LOT LOT quicker than it gets wiped off so you have to be super super careful …
Saying all that, they are a LOT better on the Ledger than the majority make it out to be. They just have a lotta holes that have been filled sub-par from internal options so it feels Yucky but the state of the Phillies isnt bad, especially if Howard progresses
There is zero need to wipe it clean and start over, that’s kinda silly imo…weak Div too makes it even sillier
Not for nothing, but all six division leaders are mostly home-grown. There is very little chance you can compete by going with only established players. Close to a -0- chance.
2009 Yankees won because of FA signings, but I agree that’s a rare exception to the rule.
that’s generally true, but all of the good players nowadays were prospects at some point as well.
He should go play with Refsnyder in Minnesota.
Some billionaire owner lost a gamble, so what? Good for Scotty to make enough money off that deal to last him a lifetime. And there’ll be a lot of life left once he’s done hanging around in filthy, snot-covered dugouts. Better than the vast majority of major leaguers who never even reach arbitration, not to mention free agency, and eventually have to retire with minuscule savings or debt and no pension.
4D Chess. Sign a guy to a healthy contract before he’s played any MLB ball so you can outright him without worrying about a claim. Ingenious.
Good for him to sign that deal. I think a concept similar to Kingery’s deal are what the players union should be pushing for when they negotiate the new CBA. Teams are getting massive production out of young players for pennies, and that’s just not a fair compensation system. The teams, owned by billionaires, should be the ones bearing more risk than any individual player, as they stand to reap all the rewards.
Decisions made by Matt Klentak, Ned Rice & Bryan Minniti, and now they are working for Sam Fuld. (hired by these guys in 2017)
The decision to keep these guys in the front office now falls on Dombrowski.
bear in mind, those guys had to be doing something right to get to their high offices. for example, we knock Klentak, but its very possible he excells in a lower role.
Mendoza Line 215
DS-I think that Klentak was too young and he bit into the statistics approach far too much.Hiring Kapler only compounded the problem.MacPhail I believe is the true culprit,and some Phillies fans call him MacFail for a reason.The owner was impressed with his WS wins but they were from thirty years ago.Even I was good lookin’ then.
Marc (Phillies Phan)
Mendoza Line 215 – I could not agree with you more (except good lookin’ of part course 🙂 )
Klentak was wayyyyyy in above his ability (at that time).
I like Kingery and I wonder (with no evidence) how much not playing 2B played in his head too? Larry Andersen always said that when they keep moving people around outside their positions, nothing ever good comes of it. I think the Phillies did him wrong early on, but, unfortunately, they made the right decision outrighting him.
Mendoza Line 215
Marc-Thanks for the follow up.Utilitymen are fine if that is what they are destined to be,but young potential all stars at one position are difficult to find and should not be fooled around with.
He bears the responsibity for letting someone fool with his swing.But,unlike Nola,who just said “ no” with the tinkering,he was too young and unestablished to not let anyone mess with it.
It is always good to step back and say “why”,and then use your common sense.Which is not always common anymore.
Rule #1-Never promote a star prospects until their K/W in the minors is less than 2/1.
Rule #2-Nothing else matters.
Kingery had a 36/5 K/W his first time inn AA. He had a 58/13 his first time thru AAA. I don’t care if you hit 60 HRs with that 58/13. It takes MLB pitches and coaches 5 minutes to figure out the holes in your swing.
Kingery went from that 58/13 (4.5) in AAA to 126/24 (5.25) in the pros. The contract probably should not have been signed until he got the K/W down, but it still could’ve worked had they waited until controlled the zone a little better.
I don’t have any strong opinions about another rebuild. Not sure I want to see that again. Yet, this is not a good team. Of the starting 8, only Goofy, Bryce and J. T. can play defense.
I still feel Bohm is gonna be a very good hitter, but where do you play him? He makes Franco look like a gold glover. I have always liked Segura, but am souring on his lackadaisical play and not running out ground balls.
So what to do? Spend more money or make a few surgical trades.
With the DH most likely coming next season, they could get a third baseman and rotate others as the dh.
Am I alone thinking this way?
As Cherb mentioned, the idea of trading for him is intriguing. Assuming the acquiring team could still outright him, and the Phillies picked up half of his $17M commitment thru 2023, it would cost the acquiring team $8M. Assuming you had to keep him in AA/AAA for all of 2021, it still only costs you $4M a season. if he is half the player he was projected to be, he’d be a good bargain.
i think it will be interesting to see what happens with him after this year if he hits well. presumably his trade value doesnt go up unless he shows a bit in the Majors again, but you could still get a few years of cheap, solid baseball. as ive said, to me the skill is there, and its not like he’s only shown it in the Minors too – he’s shown flashes in the Majors. it’s just a matter of getting the swing and the confidence back.
Mendoza Line 215
Joe-I thought about that for the Pirates,but they are too cheap and supposedly stacked with young middle infielders to probably entertain the idea.
Other rebuilding teams should at least consider it,but if they are smart enough to see the K/W ratio like you did perhaps not.
Another victim of Gabe Kapler trying to have him hit homers instead of line drives.This guy may be ok after a year in AAA
Stan the Man
An excellent athlete whose eyesight shortcomings were exposed once he reached the highest level of competition…here’s hoping Scott finds a way to overcome the issue and can find success in the future somehow.
Kingery has nice hair.
Has this ever worked out for a team? In the case of Singleton and Kingery you’re making the assessment without any MLB AB’s in the evaluation that they are done with their development and all further development can take place at the MLB level.
In a copy cat league I think this strategy is a lose-lose, the team is out $ and the players’ development gets screwed up.
Cap & Crunch
Players will take the buck 10/10 times …it kinda helps insure MLB playing time too in their minds….they all think their ready, and having 25 mill banked helps move that thought process
Acuna/Albies might have distorted some views. They shouldn’t be taken as the norm, but like you say, copy-cat
They get a nominal PR boast as well, not worth the ledger risk imo, but at least the Angels had a nice March w/ the Fletcher news ya know-
Eh, it depends. The White Sox have made it work with Luis Robert, Tim Anderson and Eloy Jiménez. I think it should be reserved for players who you basically know are “sure-things.” Guys like Vladimir Guerrero Jr., Eloy Jiménez, Ozzie Albies, Luis Robert, Ronald Acuna Jr., and those kinda mega star types.
Cult of Dickie Thon
Outside of a few months early in 2019, Kingery has been terrible at the MLB level.
He’ll get a chance to work on his swing at Lehigh but I bet he spends the next 2+ years buried at AAA.
Brick House Coffee Tables Inc
I could see the Cubs trading David Bote for him. Bote is best used as bench bat who hits better in high leverage situations and can stand at 3B/2B/1B to give a guy a day off or as part of a double switch without being totally exposed. But they need a better middle infielder with options to stash at AAA, and they still owe Bote a couple of years worth of salary at about $3M/yr.
At Iowa, Kingery could play 6 days a week and focus on lowering his strikeout rate. The Cubs don’t really have any meaningful 2B prospects at AA or high-A (Christopher Morel projects to end up playing a corner infield or maybe RF) so Kingery at Iowa 2B for 2022 is a reasonable risk.
Mets will pick him up as “depth”
I wouldn’t mind if they did
Marc (Phillies Phan)
I am sad, but it is the right decision
So strange how the narrative on a player can change so quickly. It honestly feels like this guy was just establishing himself as a future star (in the same vein as Ben Zobrist or Whit Merrifield) and his first cup of coffee in the majors didn’t do anything to disprove that he wasn’t on that path.
What happened? This is a shame. I don’t like the contract with how he’s played but if that contract wasn’t strangling any value he could bring, I’d like to see the White Sox try to bring him in.