While the White Sox exercised their $16MM club option on Craig Kimbrel back in November, Chicago GM’s Rick Hahn hinted that the veteran closer could very well be in a different uniform come Opening Day 2022. “What we have to figure out is if it makes the most sense to have Craig in a White Sox uniform going forward or is there a better use of that spot and him perhaps via trade?” Hahn told reporters, thus setting the stage for weeks of trade rumors before the lockout halted all big league trade activity. The signing of Kendall Graveman prior to the transactions freeze also seemed to indicate that Kimbrel would be moved, as the White Sox now had his replacement readied.
Kimbrel’s salary, age (he turns 34 in May), his lack of success in 2019 and 2020, and his struggles after joining the Sox at the trade deadline are all notable obstacles to any deal. The clearest avenue towards a trade might be some kind of swap of unfavorable contracts, with the White Sox moving Kimbrel for another high-salaried player that could be a fit for second base, right field, or another of Chicago’s positions of need. Or, in a longer shot, there might be a bullpen-needy team out there willing to cover most or all of Kimbrel’s contract, with this team less focused on Kimbrel’s aforementioned red flags and more on the incredible numbers he posted for the Cubs during the first four months of the 2021 campaign.
As much as Kimbrel didn’t pitch well post-trade, his early-season dominance can’t be written off. Kimbrel posted a 0.49 ERA, 46.7% strikeout rate, and a 37.2% strikeout-to-walk rate, looking all the world like he’d bounced back to his early-career star form. This performance was why the Cubs were able to command a high price for Kimbrel at the deadline, resulting in the acquisition of Nick Madrigal and Codi Heuer from their Windy City rivals.
Declining Kimbrel’s option would’ve meant the White Sox would’ve gotten nothing at all for that big trade outlay. So, as risky as it may seem, exercising Kimbrel’s option and dealing him now might allow the Sox salvage a good return (if obviously not a Madrigal/Heuer return) and get a new player who can help them take that next step forward in the postseason.
But, for all of the Kimbrel trade speculation, there has been far less buzz over the other portion of Hahn’s statement. While it can be assumed that the team’s preference is to work out a trade, what if such an acceptable deal can’t be found, and thus “it makes the most sense to have Craig in a White Sox uniform going forward“?
NBC Sports Chicago’s Vinnie Duber recently explored the challenges of a Kimbrel trade, and floated the possibility that Kimbrel might wind up returning to the White Sox bullpen. “Yes, it would seem quite strange for Hahn to take the seemingly significant step of talking about a Kimbrel trade in the open only to not make a deal,” Duber notes, and yet it isn’t exactly a worst-case scenario for the Sox to have what might be a potentially loaded bullpen.
With closer Liam Hendriks headlining a group of Kimbrel, Graveman, Aaron Bummer, Jose Ruiz, and (depending on how he is deployed) Garrett Crochet, there’s a lot of talent in that relief corps. This type of depth might also be a necessity given the questions in Chicago’s rotation — Carlos Rodon seems likely to sign elsewhere in free agency, Dallas Keuchel struggled in 2021, and Michael Kopech might not yet be ready to assume a full starters’ workload. If the White Sox bullpen can consistently eat three or more innings per game, however, that significantly reduces what is required of the starters, and helps keep them fresh for the playoffs.
This assumes that Kimbrel will be a solid contributor himself in 2022, rather than the homer-prone reliever who allowed five home runs and posted a 5.09 ERA over 23 innings with the ChiSox. As small as that sample size is, Kimbrel’s 36 2/3 innings with the Cubs last season isn’t much larger, so it remains to be seen exactly which Kimbrel might show up next year.
Breaking down Kimbrel’s Sox tenure, it is worth noting that a lot of his problems were contained to two brutal games — ironically, both against the Cubs. Kimbrel allowed three runs over two-thirds of an inning against the Cubs on August 6, and then three more runs against his former team in an inning of work on August 27. Subtract those two outings from the equation, and Kimbrel suddenly has a much more impressive 2.95 ERA over 21 1/3 frames with the White Sox, and only two home runs allowed.
There might also be a more basic reason why Kimbrel didn’t pitch well with the White Sox. The right-hander tossed only 36 total regular-season innings over the 2019-20 seasons, before jumping back up to 59 2/3 IP in 2021. As Jordan Lazowski of the Sox On 35th blog observed, Kimbrel’s fastball velocity declined by 1.7 mph from June to September, leading to a natural decrease in the quality of his fastball, and some mechanical issues that seemed to develop as Kimbrel tried to adjust and compensate.
In theory, if the 2021 season helped get Kimbrel’s arm re-acclimated to an increased workload, it could bode well for the righty to keep things going for all six months of the next regular season (and, the White Sox hope, into October). This is another instance where a deep Chicago bullpen can come in handy, as if Tony La Russa can pick and choose from several quality options for close late-game situations, Kimbrel’s innings can be managed to some extent.
Keeping Kimbrel’s $16MM on the books gives the White Sox less flexibility for other moves this winter, as the Pale Hose are already projected for a team-record high number of roughly $180MM in 2022. Yet, if Hahn and company can move some other money around to get that second baseman or right fielder, or if ownership green-lights more spending, a Kimbrel deal wouldn’t be so critical to Chicago’s post-lockout plans.
DarkSide830
Bad trade compounded by sunk cost fallacy. If Hahn fails in Chicago this is going to be part of why.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Uh, no. Picking up KImbrel on a flyer is not going to sink anyone.
Ogie Oglethorpe
Dumpster Divin Rick
CalcetinesBlancos
Meh, this is the least of the Sox problems.
DarkSide830
They wouldn’t have a hole at 2B if not for Kimbrel being a WS.
lucas0622
I wouldn’t say Kimbrel is the reason why, at this moment in time, there is a hole at 2B for the White Sox. CWS have had plenty of time to try and acquire a replacement
5toolMVP
“Plenty of time” has nothing to do with it. If that hadn’t traded a 2b for Kimbrel they would need to acquire a replacement 2b. Lmao. He is absolutely the reason they have a hole at 2B.
rondon
They tried to turn a career closer into a set up guy. “Least” or not, that was a problem.
User 4245925809
He didn’t care for non save situations while in Boston and the situations where he came in showed it. i imagine being in setup situations, for a guy like Kimbrell would be the same with his closer mentality.
Other hand.. They keep him and believe he can work with Kopech, should they move him slowly into closer role and for ’22 have him in setup/closer on days where Kimbrell not available.
ChiSox_Fan
Kopech is a 2022 starter.
Come back when u know what u r posting about.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
Lynn, Giolito, Cease, Kopech are 4 starters.
Kopech & Crochet would be candidates for the #5 role. Unless the White Sox sign/trade for another pitcher.
There’s no guarantee, and no statements from anyone within the White Sox ranks that Garrett Crochet is a starter in 2022, so drop the arrogance.
padam
@johnsilver – you forget about Hendricks? No one is slowly moving into the closer role.
1984wasntamanual
I’m confused what you mean, is Kopech pitching twice in a row? How is he a 4th started and candidate for the #5 role?
deweybelongsinthehall
With his arm history, he could eventually be moved to the closer role, eventually replacing Hendricks. I can see that happening at some point down the road
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
I meant Keuchel. Oops.
CalcetinesBlancos
Lol yes they would. Madrigal gets hurt every year.
Just John
Wait, wait, I think I can explain this whole thing. Kopech, these Kopechs want to change your Kopech. They don’t want this Kopech or any of his Kopechs to live here, because it’s bad for their Kopech. They use Kopech to try and force Kopechs to believe their Kopech. If you let them stay here, they will build Kopechs and Kopechs, they will take all your Kopechs and replace them with Kopech. These Kopechs have no good Kopech to live on Kopech, so they must come here to Kopech. Please, let these Kopechs stay where they can dwell and prosper without any Kopechs, Kopechs or Kopechs.
CalcetinesBlancos
Eh, Malkovich Malkovich Malkovich Malkovich; Malkovich Malkovich Malkovich…Malkovich Malkovich. Malkovich.
iverbure
Padres would probably pick up all of Kimbrels deal in exchange for Wil Myers. Seems unlikely they trade Kimbrel given they picked up the option. Jays could have some interest but if they’re taking on all that money they aren’t getting anything noteworthy in return.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
If the money is even, this would be a good trade for the White Sox. But if Tatis plays shortstop, right now Myers is the Padres second best outfielder after Trent Grisham. Profar is third. Pham is gone (for now). Padres have internal relief pitcher options. So while Padres fans always want to dump Hosmer and Myers, it does not good if they are taking back an equal amount in salary and becoming short an outfielder. Abrams will be great but he is not ready, Hassell may be great, he also is not ready.
Oddvark
This deal also wouldn’t be great for the White Sox. Myers is more expensive than Kimbrel, so it wouldn’t save the Sox any money. And Myers would only marginally improve the Sox’s RF situation over Vaughn/Engel/Leury/Sheets, while making their bullpen worse. Wouldn’t be worth it in my opinion.
BlueSkies_LA
Teams often send cash in these deals to equalize them, so why talk as if this couldn’t happen here?
deweybelongsinthehall
Wait until the new CBA shows what bucks large market teams still have under the threshold. If the Sox attach enough prospects, teams might be interested and hope he gets his magic back. Hard to understand his inconsistent year to year. He’s gone from being one of the best ever to one of the most overrated. I can though see Boston if they have the room, consider the risk if allowing him to close. Such would then give a starter opportunity to Houck or Whitlock and further strengthen the minors with more prospects. in hindsight Chicago probably should have written off last year’s trade and allowed Kimbrel to become a free agent.
Rsox
If the White Sox add an OF it would be a LH hitter. Myers brings nothing that they don’t already have with Andrew Vaughn.
Deleted Userr
Would have made more sense to decline Kimbrel’s option than to take Myers just to get rid of him.
Al Hirschen
The Mets could want him
Aaron Sapoznik
The Mets are reportedly shopping Jeff McNeil this offseason. He would be a great fit for the White Sox to fill their 2B hole while also providing a solid left-handed bat to a lineup that still leans right-handed. I can envision a deal that features Craig Kimbrel as part of a trade package with the Mets.
New York might also have some competition for Kimbrel’s service within their own division. He would make a lot of sense for the Phillies as well. Philadelphia might be willing to part with 2B Jean Segura in a package for Kimbrel, especially if the Phillies were to secure one of the top FA shortstops once the lockout ends. Trevor Story might be the more logical and economic sign. He could slide over to 2B, a position where many pundits feel he will finish his MLB career. Of course, Story would make a whole lot of sense to fill the White Sox 2B hole directly as a free agent this offseason if Jerry Reinsdorf allows his front office to approach the luxury tax threshold for the first time in his ownership tenure.
Cosmo2
As a Met fan, please no to Kimbrel. He’s too expensive and not that good. And can we please keep McNeil? He’s very good and actually plays a position of need for us so…
Say Hey Now Kid
I don’t want to lose McNeil either, but the Mets desperately need starters and relievers and will probably have to go the trade route.
I don’t know if a Kimbrel/McNeil trade is possible though. White Sox would have to eat almost all the money or include a major prospect, neither or which they want to do
padam
Haven’t heard anything regarding the Mets moving McNeil, and they’re certainly not going to have Cano play the position of the DH arrives in the NL. Aside from that, the Mets have Diaz, Kimbrel is overpaid and on the decline. I’d say it would be a hard pass if a call was made. The disparity of salaries is another issue as well.
Cosmo2
Trading McNeil just opens up another joke on the team though. Can’t go into the season with Cano and Escobar as starters. Too thin.
Buckner
No. Trade McNeil to the White Sox for two AA players. For example, someone like Norge Vera, who will likely pitch in AA this year.
deweybelongsinthehall
McNeil is not great in the field nor is he another Jeff Kent or Daniel Murphy. His best year was in 19 when the ball was juiced. He’s simply not as good as some Mets can think he is.
BartoloHRball
Kimbrel could work in NYM….but at $16m, more needs to come back for McNeil. Yes he had a down 2021 season, but even w. a down season he is still averaging 3WAR per season. His 162 game avg….4.9WAR. Dude can rake too.
I’d guess the Mets would love to ask for Kopech back, but I understand if CWS ball at that.
Cosmo2
First of all, why does he have to be Kent or Murph to be worthwhile? That’s a bit of a straw man there. Secondly, McNeil’s OPS+ #’s 2018-2020: 138, 143, 130. That’s pretty darn good by ANY standard. (And OPS+ accounts for the juiced ball because it’s a comparison to all the other players).
Deleted Userr
Not a chance the White Sox do that.
rct
‘His best year was in 19 when the ball was juiced.’
His 2018 and 2020 seasons, though abridged, were very similar to his 2019 season and only lacked the power of 2019.
OPS+/wRC+:
2018 – 138/136
2019 – 143/144
2020 – 130/131
Further, the ball being ‘juiced’ would mean that everyone was hitting better, but McNeil’s OPS+ and wRC+ were still 43 and 44% better than the league average.
In short, McNeil *is* that good. He just had a bad 2021, driven primarily by a low BABIP, a slightly increased GB rate, and a slightly decreased line drive rate. His exit velocity and hard hit ball % was in-line with his career averages. A new hitting coach should help as several Mets had down years at the plate. Don’t count him out.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
Who would Lindor have to grab by the throat and assault if the Mets traded Jeff McNeil away? Most jobs that would get you terminated.
deweybelongsinthehall
Cosmo:. 18 was so far away to be a reliable barameter. 19 was the ball and 20 while played under horrendous conditions was only 60 games. As to Murphy and Kent, I was just trying to oint out none of the three were)are great in the field and I don’t see McNeil having superstar success like the others moving forward.
deweybelongsinthehall
He is unlikely to hit for power again nor hit for average like Boggs or Gwynne. He’ll also be getting paid more and more. I use my eyes more than saberstats. Given Kimbrel’s salary, he could be a return fit. I just don’t think he has much stand alone value like Mets’ fans think he has. To me he brings back a middle reliever and a mid to lower level prospect.
Cosmo2
Trading McNeil for Kimbrel is trading a cheap, valuable player for an expensive, less valuable player. Makes no sense. There is absolutely no reason to trade McNeil.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
I don’t think the trade was awful, it was a gamble and it failed.
What was AWFUL, was picking up the option when Kimbrel is not worth $16 million as a set up pitcher.
The White Sox traded away a solid 2B who has little power. And a middle reliever with potential. The costs for a one year gamble (and fail) on Kimbrel were acceptable because they were going for it all.
But the White Sox should not have picked up Kimbrel for 2022.
The $16 million cost to keep Kimbrel in 2022 is simply unjustified. They have other needs where they could spend the $16 million rather than try to engineer a break-even swap of questionable contracts.
tstats
I liked Codi, I’m not sure why but I always thought he would end up being a pretty good RP/set up guy.
Deadguy
I remember getting asked if I was just trying to make my money back a few times when I was a teenager. This is why I never made it in Chicago either
maximumvelocity
It was a bad trade. It happens. But compounding it by bringing him back when his market value is diminished was an even worse decision, because Hahn better than anyone knows the limits of his budget.
If they have no use or trust in him, they should take whatever they can get for him in terms of prospects to get him off the books, and use the money on a more useful player.
I’m leery of even a contract for contract deal, because they will likely end up with damaged goods even less useful than Kimbrel.
Dustyslambchops23
If they wanted to trade him why bother picking up the option? He doesn’t have value unless Sox plan to take back some money.
Considering they haven’t spent much this year and doesn’t seem like they want to, they really should have just let him walk
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Agreed. Jansen would be available to other teams as a free agent for one year $16 million or maybe two years $24 million. Kimbrel may work out as a swap of bad contracts but the White Sox could have done more just with $16 million in cash.
Again, I am ok with the initial trade even though it failed, it was an acceptable gamble. But the double-down when they have a high payroll and other needs is just plain silly.
stymeedone
Agreed. The question should be what are the White Sox gonna do when they CANT trade him. THEY HAVE MAXED THEIR BUDGET! There are players which fill their 2B need, but no team is going to send a valuable player for him. The Mets may have deep pockets, but they also have as deep a bullpen as CWS already. McNeil has more value to them. All CHW is going to get for him is some minor leaguer who won’t help this year, but will free up cash. That will look so bad to the fan base, Hahn and Williams will never do that.
ltully789
Agreed. If they wanted to spend that kind of money as a prelude to a trade, they should have made Rodon a QO at $18.4 million. If he had accepted, they’d be able to deal him much more easily than Kimbrel. (And if he hadn’t accepted, they’d get a compensatory pick.)
Deleted_User
Players who accept QO’s can’t be traded until mid June.
Flyby
maybe that is something they can work on in the CBA. Sign and trade deals similar to the NBA. I know they have a cap on salaries there but hey maybe they work out something for the start of the season instead of June. Lets be honest there are always suprise players in the spring and then the big pay player might be displaced and have less earning power.
Deleted Userr
MLBPA doesn’t want it. League doesn’t want it badly enough for the MLBPA to use it as leverage for anything.
BartoloHRball
Strong take. Rodon at $19m QO >>> Kimbrel at $16m….and it isn’t close. Valuewise….trading would need to be a closer to deadline deal bc of contract considerations.
Deleted_User
@BartoloHRball Can’t trade him until mid June. It’s not “frowned upon.” It’s not “They have to pay a cash penalty if they do it.” It’s simply not allowed.
NoSaint
@RemovePitcherWinsFromTheRecordBooks
After the June Draft is the earliest I believe. I could be wrong.
BartoloHRball
I didn’t write “frowned upon”….I wrote “…closer to deadline deal bc of contract considerations.” I could have been more specific, but I couldn’t remember if the cutoff was the beginning of june, end, etc. The trade deadline is nearly always July 31st….so “closer to deadline deal” fits.
Dogbone
It’s quite obvious that Mark P must not follow the White Sox very closely. When he questions in the last paragraph that Chisox management could green-light more spending. Yeah, that’ll happen when pigs fly.
bravesfan0618
Go Braves. Time to come home.
Rking
Ozuna plus prospects?
seamaholic 2
Wonder if his old team had a tell on him and that’s why the Cubs blew him up after the trade.
Prunella Vulgaris
I’ve never liked letting a pitcher throw against his former team. They know what he’s going to throw and when he’s going to throw it.
StPeteStingRays
Advantage goes to the pitcher in this scenario, imo. The pitcher knows exactly how to pitch to their weaknesses.
CalcetinesBlancos
See if you get a solid offer for him. If not hold on to him and let him close. That’s where he’s comfortable.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
White Sox are not going to let him close, Liam Hendricks is the best closer in the league.
stymeedone
He may be, but Kimbral’s ego has to be stroked. Your choice may be having Liam as the best, as Kimbral pouts, or hoping that Hendricks is willing to put team before his ego, and have an All-Star closer with the best set up man.
Shoguneye
Pouters don’t belong on the team
Flyby
There’s no crying in baseball!!!!
Rsox
Everytime i hear that i can’t help but remember Julian Tavarez bawling his eyes out on the bench after the Indians lost the ’95 World Series
Manfred’s playing with the balls
Would the Reds swap Suarez and his 3 years for 1 year of Kimbrel? Chicago might have to take back a bad contract to move him
Deleted Userr
White Sox aren’t taking bad any bad contracts to move Kimbrel. The article says declining the option would have meant getting nothing for that big trade outlay. Well exercising the option only to trade him for a bad contract would have meant they got LESS than nothing.
Although Suarez is arguably a rebound candidate.
deweybelongsinthehall
The White Sox made a mistake in many opinions and you have to look separately at the moves. picking up his option then cannot be tied to trading him now. You do it because you believe either it makes your team more rounded now, the return is best for the future or you think the best option now is to keep abd work with him so either he becomes a quality piece again or improves his trade value.
Deleted Userr
Picking up his option certainly means they see some value in him and as such they aren’t going to take back a bad contract or attach a prospect just to get rid of him.
deweybelongsinthehall
They thought they could flip him but that was then and it will be interesting to see what his value is. So e o. this post believe he has more than myself or others. $16m is not chump change. You can’t doubt his ability but is inconsistency speaks volumes. I mentioned above about Boston which needs a closer yet he only had one HOF season the last time he wore the B on his cap Ownership, fans and the media have to remember 2018 when the Sox won it all in spite of Kimbrel who simply could not be trusted down the stretch.
deweybelongsinthehall
They thought they could flip him but that was then and it will be interesting to see what his value is. So many on this post believe he has more than myself or others do. $16m is not chump change. You can’t doubt his ability but his inconsistencies speaks volumes. I mentioned above about Boston which needs a closer yet he only had one HOF season the last time he wore the B on his cap Ownership, fans and the media have to remember 2018 when the Sox won it all in spite of Kimbrel who simply could not be trusted down the stretch.
whyhayzee
Foulke – 14 IP, 1 Run
Papelbon – 10 2/3 IP, 0 Runs
Uehara – 13 2/3 IP, 1 Run
Kimbrel. – 10 2/3 IP, 7 Runs
What do you mean, couldn’t be trusted? 😉
Deleted Userr
They’re not taking bad a bad contract or attaching a prospect to get rid of a guy they JUST exercised their option on. That is what you call bad asset management.
Shoguneye
There’s no rush they can wait for him to build up his value in 2022 and move him if they want.
1984wasntamanual
Unless they need to shed that money to fill the other holes on their roster…
Deleted Userr
@deweybelongsinthehall The White Sox aren’t paying to get rid of Kimbrel. Full stop. It isn’t going to happen.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
Why would the Reds, who want to shed salary, give up Suarez (who still likely has something left in the tank) for Kimbrel, who is vastly overpaid and quite frankly, not very good?
Unless the White Sox are tossing in some intriguing, cheap reclamation guys, I see no reason why the Reds would do that.
AMiCk ĐOGEron
Suarez? No. But Moustakas, I’d do that in a second. You get potential bullpen help and essentially swap one unfavorable contract for another, but Kimbrel’s only for 1 year instead of Moose’s 2.
Shoguneye
sounds great if you’re a Reds fan, what’s in this for Chicago?
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
What’s in it for the White Sox to get rid of an expensive closer in exchange for a useful infielder?
Shoguneye
I suppose that depends on your definition of useful . He feasts on Pirates pitching, 40% of his hits came off them last year, elsewise a pretty dismal season
Rsox
Where does Suarez play? The team has basically shot down the idea of Moncada going back to 2B. Moustakas is a maybe. At least he can play 2B, though he has never actually done it in a full season yet
jessaumodesto
1. No one can be traded because there’s a lockout.
2. If they don’t trade him, he’s
Probably their closer.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
The only way Kimbrel is the closer is if Hendricks has a serious injury (or the White Sox trade Hendricks) and even then it might be Graveman.
57bravesfan
Kimbrel will only succeed as the primary closer used in closer situations. His only bad outings in his best years was when he’d hadn’t pitched in a few days and he was brought in in a non-closer situation because he needed work. He’s always been that way. A classic closers mentality that’s needs absolute confidence to succeed. Get him to a team as a primary closer, and he might have a couple of good years left.
roiste
If I’m a team, I’m not investing big bucks into a guy who’s that soft. So many other big-name closers come into games when they’re needed without issue
jjj
Ozuna for Kimbrel?
Do sox care about his past? Think he’ll be productive for most of the rest of his contract?
Rking
I think you’d have to toss in some prospects. They could have Arcia of course but you would have to include some guys like Muller or Strider. Shewmake might have a little value if they think he can hit enough to play second.
positively_broad_st
I’ve suggested this before: Sox trade Kimbrel to Philly for Didi (to play 2B) and Moniak…
MLB Top 100 Commenter
I trust Knebel more than Kimbrel, but Knebel is good in the eighth inning as well. But first Phillies have to find a shortstop.
Rsox
Bryson Stott would be the SS. DD wouldn’t re-sign Kimbrel in Boston after winning a championship, why would he trade for him now?
Rsk3228
Kimbrel for Didi straight up. Nothing more is needed if Philly takes that bad contract. Moniak should go in another deal. Maybe to Tampa for Kiermaier.
stymeedone
Where did Philly all of a sudden come up with all this money to spend?
Rsk3228
Well they have a lower salary burden this year. Didi and Kimbrel is nearly a straight swap as far as salary goes. Kiermaier makes less than either Odubel or Cutch – both are off the books from last year. That’s where they have all this money to spend. Only trick is addressing LF in addition to those two trades. Doubt Schwarber will be cheap enough.
StPeteStingRays
The last thing *Tampa Bay needs is another outfielder. If Kiermaier is traded, it won’t be for another lefty outfielder.
Oddvark
I expect Kimbrel to be at least very good in 2022 (even in a set-up role) if he stays with the Sox and there is a relatively normal Spring Break/season. I buy into the argument that fatigue played a significant factor down the stretch in 2021. I also look at Kimbrel’s history, and the only seasons that he performed poorly were the non-normal seasons — 2019 when he didn’t sign until June and missed Spring Training and 2020 when everything was messed up due to COVID. When 2021 started out mostly normal, Kimbrel dominated again, until his routine was disrupted by the trade, along with fatigue at that point after his shortened 2019 & 2020 seasons.
With that premise, along with the belief that the Sox probably won’t be able to get a good 2B or RF in a trade for Kimbrel, I think they might be better off keeping him and hoping for a truly dominant bullpen (which will be especially useful if Kopech and/or Keuchel’s innings are limited).
I also think keeping Kimbrel will allow them to send Crochet to the minors, where they can stretch out his arm and better evaluate whether he can be a SP option in 2023 and beyond. That knowledge will be very useful next offseason when they will need to decide how to allocate their resources between SP and RP. And Crochet can still be brought up occasionally throughout the season and in September to contribute at the MLB level this year.
Of course if a trade partner can be found for a solid 2B or RF, that should obviously be pursued. But keeping Kimbrel, signing one of Villar/Harrison/Solano for 2B, and rolling with Vaughn/Engel/Leury/Sheets in RF isn’t a terrible outcome (assuming they are not going to spend much more this year).
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
Your optimism is endearing, but Craig Kimbrel is just not the pitcher he used to be.
15Step
I think keeping him is the most logical outcome after they picked up the option.
I wonder if more thought should be given to the argument that another path for the Sox is to approach the CBT. The lack of options at 2b, and the White Sox hesitancy to offer a contract that secures Trevor Story make that outcome unlikely. However, with Kimbrel coming off next year, and, potentially Keuchel too, it wouldn’t jeopardize their spending next year.
bradthebluefish
White Sox should suck it up, have a high payroll, and keep Kimbrel.
1984wasntamanual
It’s really easy to spend other people’s money.
seth3120
People make it seem so easy to upload players coming off down years with dips in major categories. Kimbrel has proven he can bounce back but he’s older and it’s not like he’s controllable at a reasonable rate. The guys you take flyers on are guys who’ve done it before that don’t command a ton of salary looking for a prove it year. The Sox would have to carry so much dead money I think theyre better off hoping he returns to form to trade or keep him for a playoff run. They’d be selling super low
Kayrall
Kimbrel, Keuchel, and a prospect to the Northside with the Cubs picking up all of the money.
coolhandneil
No
JoeBrady
LOL!
Deleted Userr
The White Sox are absolutely not trading Kimbrel for an “unfavorable contract!” If his trade value were that low they would have declined his club option.
Manfred’s playing with the balls
What about David Price?
Deleted Userr
What about him?
JoeBrady
I think he was suggesting a trade of Kimbrel for Price, though I thought that would’ve been obvious.
Deleted Userr
@JoeBrady Would have made more sense to decline Kimbrel’s option than to exercise it and trade him for Price.
BlueSkies_LA
Baseball Trade Values has Kimbrel’s contract at market value and Price at minus $12M. So as much as this Dodger fan would love to see this happen, reality is still a thing where I come from.
Deleted Userr
@BlueSkies_LA BTV is not gospel but I do generally agree that Price has negative trade value and I imagine all 30 GM’s feel similarly. Meanwhile, the White Sox literally JUST exercised Kimbrel’s option so regardless of how other teams view him they’re not trading him for a negative trade value guy.
BlueSkies_LA
Well, nothing is gospel, but I believe the values assigned by BTV are reasonable to bring into this kind of discussion especially as a counter to the argument that the Kimbrel contract was ridiculous and stupid. You’re right to point out that the White Sox just exercised his option so they also didn’t see it as being way off the market, and that the Price contract is under water (the only question is by how much). If the Dodgers wanted to unload Price for Kimbrel they’d have to bundle in a top prospect, or a couple from a lower shelf, or a bunch of cash. I don’t see it, if only because they signed Hudson to close and Jansen is still floating around unclaimed.
Deleted Userr
Yeah, their valuation is probably fair in the individual cases of Craig Kimbrel and David Price.
Another thing to note is that Kimbrel’s option came with a $1m buyout, making it a $15m decision. And then the Red Sox are obviously paying half of Price’s contract.
BlueSkies_LA
The Red Sox are on the hook for half of Price, but that still leaves the Dodgers paying $16M. BTV thinks his current market value is under $4M and it’s hard to argue with that assessment. Still, Price is a bounce-back candidate. He wasn’t great last year but he wasn’t awful either. A team in need of a swingman could do worse.
Deleted Userr
Guessing that -$4m valuation is after accounting for the $16m Boston is chipping in.
BlueSkies_LA
No, $4M is their estimate of his current market value, i.e., what he’d get in free agency today. Since half of his full salary of $32M is off the table (paid by Boston), the minus $12M is the difference between what the Dodgers owe him and his current market value.
Rsox
Dodgers starting pitching depth has been massively depleted and as scary as it sounds Price is probably the Dodgers 5th starter (right now).
DarkSide830
again, it’s called they made a bad move. in theory you don’t pick up the option if you don’t think anyone will want to trade for the player, but there’s also the possibility you just misread the market.
Deleted Userr
@DarkSide830 The White Sox had a week or two after the season ended but before the deadline to accept or decline his option to ask around and see who was interested in him and what they would be willing to part with. They didn’t blindly go into the offseason with no idea how interested teams were or weren’t in Craig Kimbrel. They accepted his option which means 1 of 2 things: A) Teams were interested in Craig Kimbrel at 1/$15m but a trade wasn’t consummated before the lockout or B) The White Sox themselves are willing to pay Kimbrel $15m in 2022.
deweybelongsinthehall
Or they could have misread the market and made a mistake. Who says outside of you those are the only options? They could have thought there were deals out there but those trading teams could have or could still make other moves. Part of baseball’s beauty is the sport is fluid. Things change. Sometimes there are regrets while in other cases the best trade is the one you don’t make. Time will tell.
Deleted Userr
@deweybelongsinthehall Nope because the White Sox had perfect information at their disposal. They didn’t have to GUESS if teams were interested in Kimbrel. I’ll tell you what’s not going to happen. The White Sox are not going to eat money, attach prospects or take back another bad contract to move a guy who they JUST picked up their option on. You can completely forget about that garbage.
dazedatnoon
Keep Kimbrel and spend at 2B to fill the hole. The window of contention is now. If Reinsdorf won’t green light spending, then winning isn’t a priority….
FarhanFan22
Trevor Story to the White Sox if the lockout ever ends.
Northeasternskier
They’re using Kimbrel’s salary to buy a prospect down the road. He has a chance to bounce back and restore some trade value coming out of spring training.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
16 million is ridiculous for any bullpen arm. Those guys are a dime a dozen and every season diamonds in the rough are found on the scrap heap. Look what the Mariners did with Paul Sewald and Drew Stekenrider for instance.
Augusto Barojas
You are right, 16M ridiculous for Kimbrel. I mean, the Sox signed Graveman for 8M annually for 3 years, and he’s way better than Kimbrel. Look at Kimbrel’s numbers the past 3 years. He was good the first half of 2021 and and terrible the rest of the time. If Kimbrel were a free agent, and Hendriks went down and the Sox were looking for a closer, would Kimbrel at 16M for a season sound like a good idea? Um, no. Of course no other team will want him for that either, other GM’s are not stupid. They are not getting McNeil or anybody good in return, without paying half or most of Kimbrel’s ridiculous salary. Instead of cutting their losses, they compounded the original mistake of trading for Kimbrel by making another mistake in picking up his option. Whether they deal Kimbrel or not, they had better find the money to fill their 2b with somebody way better than Garcia or this team has zero chance of anything other than another face plant in October.
FunkyButtLovin
How do you know he’s waaaaay better??? What does Graveman’s previous 3 years look like for you to come to that conclusion. He was actually pretty bad in 2020, and not very good before that. Maybe let’s see multiple years of being good before we consider him an elite reliever.
BlueSkies_LA
Baseball Trade Values calculates Kimbrel’s contract as right on the market at $16M, with even a small amount of excess value. So that would be the other side of the ridiculous and stupid argument.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
BTV is a really bad evaluation site. It blows my mind how many people still see it as a useful tool. It’s a fun toy to mess around with, but has very little bearing on reality.
(Note: John Bitzer has been caught, on multiple occasions, changing values AFTER the trade occurs in order to make his algorithm accept it.)
AlienBob
He uses $8M of trade value separation to justify that he got every trade right. It is nothing but a Monopoly game used to claim expertise in real estate appraisal.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
It’s more than 8M in some cases. But he’s also went in and change the values of players post-trade (before posting them to his site and social media pages bragging about their success).
BlueSkies_LA
And it blow my mind that so many people prefer to guess or simply apply their own biases to every trade question.
Deleted Userr
BTV is far from perfect but it’s much more accurate than the trade proposals suggested by fanboys on this site.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
And a Geo Metro is better than riding the city bus… it doesn’t make the Geo Metro suddenly valuable.
BTV is DEEPLY flawed, for a variety of reasons. Perhaps the biggest being that trade value isn’t linear, nor is it consistent from team to team. BTV is mostly an estimation of value, which John Bitzer changes after almost every trade, because he “learns new information”–which is just his way of saying, “I was very wrong, so now I’m going to be right going forward.:
The other thing is that Bitzer gives a huge margin for error in value through what gets accepted. While value isn’t “linear” or consistent, most evaluations will fall within a 5-15M range, and Bitzer allows his model to accommodate for that. It’s like saying, “hey, I think LA is somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000 miles from Kansas City” and patting myself on the back when I’m in that range.
I think my point, in summary, is that BTV is just a flawed algorithm that a) the founder manipulates to prove it and b) falls within a comically large range of acceptable values that it’s almost insulting that he thinks he’s doing anything impressive.
There are dozens more flaws within his system, and enough to make it that people should seriously reject Bitzer’s site as anything more than just a fun game to make baseball trades when you’re bored.
Deleted Userr
I literally said it was far from perfect…
GarryHarris
Lance Lynn and Jose Abreu are 35.
Dallas Keuchel and Craig Kimbrel are 34.
Liam Hendriks is 33.
Tony LaRussa is 78.
The ChiSox are not a lock for the Division.
Darryl Rhubarb
You named 6 people from an entire team, one being the manager. Which teams have less than five 30+ year olds?
IronBallsMcGinty
Yeah, forget about those bums like Anderson, Giolito, Robert, Jiminez, Moncada, Cease and Vaughn.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
La Russa is a non-sequitur here. Unless TLR is suiting up to play a position and take at bats, why is his age relevant? Is there some sort of handicap for a manager at his age?
MendozaNYC
Kimbrel for Cano to the Mets! Both unload their salaries and get what they need. Chi: a 2b and NYM: a relief pitcher.. let’s gooo.. get it done!!
stymeedone
That’s a deal the Mets may actually do.
egrossen
But, not the White Sox
Rsox
Cano is 39 and hasn’t played in a year. How effective does anyone actually think he is going to be on either side of the ball?
BartoloHRball
Cano is raking in the Dominican (?) league. As a Mets fan who HATED the Cano trade….I’d drive Cano to the airport if he could get moved off of the roster. Kimbrel’s $16m….meh, even for half a season of good…that’s a net positive move for the Mets if they can dump Cano bc there isn’t a spot for him to play even a few days a week.
For Chicago….fixes their 2B and….that’s about it. Cano can likely still hit, but is it juice or is he bouncing back? No idea….but I’d love him off of the Mets.
Rsox
I don’t know if “raking” is accurate. He is hitting .300 but it’s in 43 PA’s against pitching that has probably never really faced a major league caliber hitter (albeit an older one coming off a second PED’s suspension)
BartoloHRball
You could root for Juicing and hope he produces and/or gets caught. If he produces…great! If he gets caught…also great! It’d be his 3rd strike, so he’d be banned….but CWS would be off the hook for his contract/$$.
duffys cliff
If the White Sox don’t trade Kimbrel, they will have made a grave mistake (pardon the pun). For better or worse, Kimbrel has one rule: closer. For some reason, he does not perform well as an 8th inning guy. And the White Sox not only have a different closer, but a different set up man. So Kimbrel legitimately has no place on this team.
Although the numbers the last few years don’t look all that good, they lack context. 2019, he signed late in the year and was dealing with injury. 2020 was the pandemic shortened season and a lot of players struggled. Kimbrel looked ELITE on the Cubs in 2021, and then struggled when his role changed with the White Sox. Kimbrel still is one of the best closers when he’s closing…and the White Sox need to trade him and get that value back if that won’t use him in that role.
Oddvark
What’s the pun?
duffys cliff
I was referring to extending Kimbrel being a grave mistake (which coincides with the signing of Kendall GRAVEman)…although maybe that was a stretch calling it a pun.
StPeteStingRays
I got the pun….
Augusto Barojas
Whenever I used puns around chicks, they would never get them. My favorite was whenever I got a bit tan and someone would say “looks like you got a little sun”, and I would say “yeah, but I haven’t picked out a name for him yet”. It’s really hard for me to understand how I’ve managed to remain single all these years.
AMiCk ĐOGEron
Not a perfect scenario, but the if Reds could swap Moustakas for Kimbrel salary-wise it’d be a wash but it could actually improve the bullpen while getting rid of the mediocre log-jam at 3rd.
joefriday1948
The Rockies are eager to take on big contracts, give up promising players and lose.
Digdugler
it was such a bad trade at the time.
mike156
Kimbrel can probably still pitch reasonably well and, yes, the money is already spent. Use him, if he’s truly bad, DFA him, decent, look to trade him at deadline for another piece. It was a strange move at the time, but he’s still a potential asset, even if overvalued on dollars right now.
sdbaseballguy
What is the world stops spinning?
StPeteStingRays
We fly off of it at about Mach 1
Old York
If they don’t trade him then he’ll be on the roster for the 2022 season. Doesn’t mean they can’t trade him at a later date.
roob
If you know the White Sox organization then you know that if they keep Kimbrel then one of their major holes will go unfulfilled. It’s that simple.
He has to be moved for a 2B or RF. He’s proven to be less effective when not closing and it makes no sense not to use the best closer just to try to help Kimbrel.
They should take the best offer for him and use the payroll flexibility for other needs.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
This is the same ballclub that hired Tony La Russa instead of A.J. Hinch (or a myriad of better options) and gave Adam Eaton $8M last year.
So I’m not sure that anyone should be so confident that they’ll just suddenly make the right decision here.
Rallyshirt
And knowing the White Sox organization means knowing Jake Burger is doing lots of reps at 2B this off-season.
pt57
I’ll never understand why the Sox picked up the option.
He didn’t sign until June in ‘19, so the market was already saying there wasn’t much demand.
Then he had 2 terrible years and a less than stellar Sox stay.
It made no sense.
JoeBrady
IMO, a very bad trade and a bad option. But for all those that think the WS are going to dump for a really bad contract, I suspect you’ll be wrong. I’d be shocked if he went for the likes of Moose of Myers.
As a RS, I feel $16M is too much. If the WS wanted to pick up $3-4M, I’d be real tempted to send over a lottery ticket.
Deleted Userr
Not a chance he is traded for Moose or Myers, at least not straight up. Both Moose and Myers have negative trade value. Kimbrel, at least in the eyes of the White Sox, has positive trade value. To suggest that the White Sox would trade Kimbrel for Moose or Myers is basically the same as if I were to suggest the Red Sox would trade Devers for Moose or Myers.
JoeBrady
It didn’t get mentioned, but the Cubs GM deserves executive of the year consideration for moving Darvish & Kimbrel. Both were considered untradeable. Both got hot at the right time, and got traded for a great return. And then reverted.
Andy 51
Cubs got a back end rotation starter who had a year left on his contract and 4 lotto picks, how is that a good trade for Darvish? It was a salary dump.
Deleted Userr
It was a good trade because only a year earlier the Cubs were FUMING that Darvish didn’t opt out and if the Padres tried to trade him now they wouldn’t get back what they gave up.
Andy 51
Darvish was coming off a strong 8-3 season with the Cubs and an era just a touch over 2 in the shortened ’20 season. Outstanding year. He had 3 years left on his contract and the Padres were looking for someone who could get them to the post season. No question he’s had issues since the trade but at the time of the trade it seems to me the Cubs sold themselves way short. They chose to let SD take on more of the contract in exchange for very little in the way of player return. Davies with 1 year left and 4 young dudes non of whom were ranked anywhere speaks to the fact that the Cubs wanted to dump salary first and foremost.
Deleted Userr
Maybe there’s a reason they wanted to dump his salary. Also, only people who live in caves care about pitcher wins and losses.
Goose
If this was a 3+ year contract I would agree. You have him on the books for one more year. If he is good he either helps your team or you can deal him. If he is that bad you cut your losses and let him go.
Andy 51
From late in the ’20 season thru the trade deadline last year Kimbrel was elite. He was a different pitcher when he was used in a set up role. I would be surprised if the Sox did not move him before the season starts and seems like the Mets are a very good target to build a McNeil trade around. Cano will need help at 2nd (if they keep him) so throw in Mendick (no bat but good glove and plays 2nd/SS/3rd and RF and eat some of the contract if necessary but McNeil would be a very good add for the Sox and, among other things, Showalter does not have to deal with the McNeil/Lindor drama and Diaz can slide into a set up role.
tidybowlman
Why would the Mets give up McNeil for an expensive, old arm? Cano is a better fit.
BigGargamel
Cubs didn’t do a lot right in 2021, but trading this guy for Madrigal was definitely a good move.
David Barista
Madrigal is not the reason that trading for Kimbrell was a bad move…. The problem with the move was/is Cesar Hernandez and Leury Garcia… The hole at 2nd base needs to be patched up, but the free agent options are limited and the prospects aren’t ready
Andy 51
I really thought the Sox would sign Escobar for a year or 2 which would allow them time to see if either Yolbert Sanchez or Romy Gonzalez could take over. Makes me think that once the CBA is finalized Kimbrel is going somewhere (my bet is the Mets/McNeil) for a 2nd base solution.
David Barista
Yolbert Sanchez seems to need at least a half a season more in minors….. Maybe the Sox think they can tread water and improve the position at mid season with a trade or call up…. I actually like Jose Rodriguez, but it seems like he is at least another year away
Andy 51
I think the guy to watch is Romy Gonzalez. 24 homers and 24 steals over .280 BA and just shy of .900 OPS as he rose up to Triple A and spent a bit of time with the Sox. Could very well be a year away but probably not the answer for ’22.
MikeBSoxFan
Unfortunately, the Sox are either stuck with him, or they will have to package prospects (which they really don’t have at this point) to trade Kimbrel for anything that would improve the team from day 1. No team is going to trade for him due to his $16 million dollar contract, especially since he ended the year as a reliever who gave up a lot of HR’s with a 5.00+ ERA for the Sox.
I wish there was a way to turn him into starting a starting second baseman or even a dependable better option in RF than who they have now (Vaughn/Sheets/Garcia/Engel), but the reality is, it’s not going to happen. The Sox best bet at this point is to let him pitch 7-8th innings to start the season and hope he builds up a following among other GM’s. Then maybe unload him before the deadline for something they need heading into the playoffs. Remember, injuries happen and they will probably hit the Sox at some point. Why not hang onto him, hope he turns it around and then TRY AGAIN to make the playoff roster stronger, using KImbrel as a trade piece?
Rsox
This notion that the White Sox have to trade Kimbrel is false. They picked up his option, not the other way around. Unfortunately there are not going to be any Kimbrel to team X for player Y’s bad contract. A lot can happen in the course of a season, a lot can happen just getting to the season. Just because you have all these pitchers healthy on paper right now doesn’t mean it will stay that way
tidybowlman
Kimbrel straight up for Cano?