Although the Cubs generally sat out last winter’s star-studded free agent market for shortstops, there’s already been ample speculation that they’ll be more aggressive on that front in the 2022-23 offseason. Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic added to that this week in his podcast, voicing a belief that the Cubs “will get” one of the marquee shortstops on this year’s market. As profiled in our latest Free Agent Power Rankings here at MLBTR yesterday, the class includes Trea Turner, Carlos Correa (who’s expected to opt out of the final two years and $70.7MM of his Twins deal this winter), Xander Bogaerts (who’ll opt out of the final three years and $60MM on his Red Sox deal) and Dansby Swanson.
It’s obviously far too early to make any definitive statements regarding who’ll sign where over the winter, and it bears emphasizing that speculation this time of year often doesn’t align with reality when the offseason dust settles. (A year ago this time, the common speculation was that Correa would reunite with former Astros skipper AJ Hinch in Detroit. A few years back, Patrick Corbin and the Yankees were linked to one another just about every week.) Signing one of the “big” shortstops would likely require the largest commitment the Cubs have made since signing Yu Darvish to a six-year, $126MM contract in free agency — and each of the four can be reasonably expected to clear that sum on the open market this year.
Correa was reported to be a target of the Cubs last winter, but he revealed in a July interview with Gordon Wittenmyer that in spite of some conversation, he never received an actual offer. The Cubs ultimately signed the recently released Andrelton Simmons to a one-year, $4MM deal.
More from Wrigley…
- The Cubs aren’t certain whether they’ll get Kyle Hendricks back this season, although manager David Ross tells reporters that the right-hander’s latest MRI revealed only continued inflammation and some indications that the 32-year-old is “getting better” (link via Tim Stebbins of NBC Sports Chicago). Hendricks, who hasn’t pitched since July 5, will be shut down for an additional week, at which point the Cubs’ medical staff will reevaluate him. Hendricks, who’s in the third season of a four-year, $55.5MM contract extension, posted a 4.80 ERA through 16 starts when healthy enough to pitch. For the time being, the team’s focus is solely on getting Hendricks healthy and not necessarily on getting him back into game shape, Ross suggested, which makes sense for a player who’s signed for $14MM next season on a team with no postseason hopes. “I don’t think getting him back in games is a top priority for everyone,” said Ross. “But if he is able to get to that space, I think that’s a win for everyone.”
- “Cubs bench coach Andy Green and assistant hitting coach know recently claimed slugger Franmil Reyes quite well from the trio’s time together in San Diego, Maddie Lee of the Chicago Sun-Times points out. Green admitted to “fist pumping” when he learned the club had been awarded the waiver claim on Reyes, and both he and Washington effused praise for Reyes’ clubhouse demeanor and energy. As Lee explores, the Cubs’ decision to option Frank Schwindel following the Reyes claim — much like the decision to option David Bote after acquiring Zach McKinstry — signal a shift to beginning to evaluate newly acquired and/or untested players over the season’s final few months rather than sticking with struggling veterans whom the club knows a bit better.
With Nico Hoerner, there is no need to sign a shortstop. Use the cash to sign Contreras and Happ.
They should be able to do all three. Also there’s no need to worry too much about Happ this year. He won’t be a FA yet.
We don’t need a bad catcher and have plenty of outfield help on the way next 2-4 years. Signing either guy would be like signing Heyward all over again!
All of the listed shortstops are leap years better than Madrigal and that is who they will be replacing, if signed, not Hoerner. Hoerner will simply slot back to 2b.
No guarantee they move Nico if they sign Bogarts and maybe not Turner unless a specific part of negotiations- which is entirely possible. Swanson probably, but Correa would knock Hoerner to 2B, yes.
Pitching, pitching, pitching and a big bat. Nico has been great and under control for multiple years for an affordable salary. Don’t crap the bed handing out bad long term contracts.
I would extend Nico now, like how the Braves do with their young stars like Acuna, Albies, Riley… You get the most value that way rather than extend players on the wrong side of 30. Extend them at 25. The players get security, and the owners aren’t stuck into Heyward like contracts, strangling the organization when they are on the decline.
You are spot on! Why bury the payroll for 10 years with these high-priced SS? Only one I would consider is Turner – a 5-tooler. But he’ll break the bank. How about looking at 2B-men? Then keep Nico -a real GAMER! – at SS. Get another gamer for 2B. And keep the money for other less expensive FAs that can help – and let’s not forget – there are a number of prospects that will help going forward, including pitchers. As you say, THAT is our biggest need.
If the Cubs were going to sign Contreras they would have already. Look for the Cubs to either trade for a young C or sign a FA one if one is available. Gomes is here next year and Higgins is fair as a backup but help could be needed there rather than a SS. The Cubs made the decision at the deadline that the compensatory pick they’ll get for Contreras is is more valuable than what they were being offered so unless Willy wants to drop his asking price to stay, he’s likely gone. The line has been drawn in the sand and nobody wants to cross it.
I didn’t hear that there was an asking price by Willson. Where do you see that?
Of course there was an asking price. One which the Cubs aren’t willing to pay. Just common sense tells me that.
It entirely possible, if not likely, that Contreras takes the Qualifying Offer which will be around 20 million because as we saw at the trade deadline, his market isn’t as great as originally thought.
Contreras isn’t taking the QO
I think he could. He loves Chicago; he likes working with young players and would make an excellent “Yadie Molina”-type player, and would have additional time to negotiate long-term with the Cubs. I don’t think it’s a slam-dunk that he is gone.
He’s rejecting the QO. Full stop.
Why not sign a SS, move Nico to 2nd, QO to Willson and just let Happ get to FA?
Don’t sign a needed talent so you can extend redundant players?
You are dead on, True—that is exactly what is going to happen—perhaps trade Happ for a prospect or two next July. At that point there will be a real read as to how close Davis, Crow-Armstrong and Alcantara are to joining Seiya in the outfield.
I may be in the minority, but I don’t think Willson’s long term deal offer are going to be that strong that he doesn’t accept the QO at 18M+ for 2023.
I have a better chance of ever receiving a QO than Contreras does of accepting one.
The Cubs need pitching more than anything else. A quality staff and they would be in the playoff race right now.
I agree, Hoerner and Morel are more than adequate to play shortstop. Hoerner BA is .300 with 7 HR. I would like the Cubs to sign Contreras because of his play and his leadership with young Hispanic players is invaluable! The Cubs are loaded with talent in their farm system but they are 2-3 years away. Save your money and a draft pick for an elite player when in contention. Fun to watch the kids develop on the Cubs:Hoerner, Madrigal, Morel, Velazquez and the pitching.
Gonna go out on a limb and say CHC doesn’t get one of those guys.
Cubs definitely need a big bat for the infield but how much would it take to pry Nolan arrenado from the cards if he opts out? Not only would it solve a glaring need, but also be a big blow to a divisional rival.
Cubs also need to prevent cardinals from signing Willson to replace yadi
If Arenado opts out of his remaining salary you can guarantee it will cost over $200 million to sign him as a free agent
Everyone needs to get this into their heads. The Cubs are NOT going to sign one of the big name SS’s this off season. I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it. They have way more needs than that. First they’ll need to rebuild the bullpen either through FA or promotions. They have SS’s in the system. Yeah they’re young but Hoerner has proven more than capable of holding down the fort til they get here. Triantos, Hernandez, Made are all coming. Even Morel is capable of playing SS so we have no problem there. STOP WRITING THIS NONSENSE!
Triantos isn’t a shortstop regardless of what MLB Pipeline has on his profile. He has played all of 0 innings as a middle infielder this season.
Made, Hernandez and Howard are the three prospects we have that profile well enough defensively to stay at shortstop but both are a good three years away.Hernandez isn’t out of the rookie league, Howard lost nearly this entire year due to injury and his bat is well away and Made doesn’t have that “impact” potential with the bat (nor does Howard but Howard’s defense is elite).
Hoerner is more than capable of “holding down” shortstop but he also is an elite defender at second base (as Cubs are well aware, just because you can play short, doesn’t mean you can play second).
Given the Cubs need for an impact bat as well as the market for free agents next year, shortstop is only logical fit. Especially given that the Cubs could eventually slide them over to either third base or second base.
IMO, the only “he’s coming” position the Cubs have is CF with PCA and Alcantara. I think Alcatara could be an elite corner outfielder with defense to spare and Crow-Armstrong’s defensive prowess is well documented.
As for the comments that the Cubs will not re-sign Contreras, Contreras’s market, just like his trade market, will not be so robust. The Cubs will extend a qualifying offer to Contreras and, IMO, will use it as leverage.
Clearly the Cubs were never going to go to JT Realmuto money for Contreras like he wanted but would they go 4/60-5/80? I’m sure they would and IMO again, those are the dollars that will be floated Conterars way given his lack of ability to develop a pitching staff.
What I find interesting is that one can only presume that Conteras is going to lose DH opportunities now the Cubs claimed Reyes. This could damage the Cubs relationship with Contreras further because I don’t see him taking extra work behind the plate given that the Cubs seem to favor Gomes with certain pitchers already.
Triantos was a SS when they drafted him. They had Howard and Hernandez right next to him so they moved him to 3B. Absolutely no reason why he can’t be moved back, especially with Howard’s long term future now in doubt. Plus their 3rd round pick was another SS and the only player in the top ten picks who wasn’t a P.
Triantos will not be moved back to SS because scouts and team personnel do not think he can hack it there, except as an emergency option.
The 3rd round pick you’re referring to is 18 and at complex ball. For all we know, he could be a 2B or CF prospect by the end of next year. Banking your future on these 18 yr olds will leave a lot to be desired. The attrition rate is massive.
Triantos also was a pitcher in high school… maybe he can be our Ohtani!
@drasco. You make many good points except I disagree about one of them. When you overlook Matt Mervis as a ‘he’s coming’ player. It seems to me the only reason Mervis already isn’t in Chicago, is because he started out the year in A ball – and by not adding him to the roster now, saves a spot to protect another roster spot until next spring.
Mervis has exploded out of no where! I’m a little hesitant to label him as a “he’s coming” only because he’s risen so fast I’m not sure if any teams have been able to put a book together on him yet or not.
Bryce Ball is having a nice season in AA as well,
I’ve seen Ball a few times last year at south Bend. It appears he may have closed a few holes in his strike zone up, but Mervis could be another Rizzo.
@drasco036 “As for the comments that the Cubs will not re-sign Contreras, Contreras’s market, just like his trade market, will not be so robust. The Cubs will extend a qualifying offer to Contreras and, IMO, will use it as leverage.”
If he’s so easy to sign why not trade him then bring him back as a FA? Would you rather have Contreras plus a prospect or just a prospect?
One, because the qualifying offer gives the cubs leverage as it will remove some potential suitors from the picture.
Two, as cubs fans saw with Lester, Lester wanted to be a life king Red Sox until they traded him. Then Lester held a grudge and decided to give the cubs a chance.
Three, as some have said “taking what you can get” would have weakened hoyers position in future trades and when it comes to a guy you can at least get some return on if he leaves “qualifying offer” then do not take that chance.
@drasco036;;;
“One, because the qualifying offer gives the cubs leverage as it will remove some potential suitors from the picture.”
Teams that sign QO free agents no longer have to give up their first rounder. The amount of leverage it gives the Cubs isn’t as great as it once was. It also lowers what the Cubs will be willing to offer him because they have a comp pick to gain by letting him walk.
“Two, as cubs fans saw with Lester, Lester wanted to be a life king (sic) Red Sox until they traded him. Then Lester held a grudge and decided to give the cubs a chance.”
What are you talking about? Your comment makes no sense. Lester didn’t hold any grudge against anyone. The Cubs offered him way more money than the Red Sox did. He would have signed with the Cubs anyway.
“Three, as some have said ‘taking what you can get’ would have weakened hoyers position in future trades and when it comes to a guy you can at least get some return on if he leaves “qualifying offer” then do not take that chance.”
That’s not true. As Anthony Franco said yesterday, all 30 GM’s already understand that teams in that position have very little leverage. The demand comes from the fact that you have a legitimately good player and that teams also realize they have to be the highest bidder to get him. Your argument only works if all 29 other teams collude against the Cubs to suppress Contreras’ price which 1. Isn’t allowed and 2. Wouldn’t work with 29 possible teams they could trade him to.
✔️
If there’s anything Lester held a grudge over it was the “insulting” extension offer the Red Sox made to him during 2014 spring training. Not getting to finish out his last arb year pitching for an actual contender and then not be burdened by the QO in free agency.
So will you eat crow in the event they do sign one of the four to a deal?
I don’t understand your claim of they have way more needs than SS. The bullpen has been built on the fly for years with tons of success. There isn’t a glaring need to devote massive resources to that area, especially with all of the solid to quality arms already in the upper levels of the minors, and the return of Heuer, Alozay, Marquez, etc. We would only need to devote money to several major league deals in free agency to shore up the pen. Even if we went out and bought a closer, setup man, and middle reliever, why waste 30-50 mil on players with such volatile profiles that usually don’t workout on big money deals? Seems like a misallocation of resources, and straight up mismanagement when you have a glut of internal options.
I think we need an ace caliber starting pitcher, but other than that, maybe fishing in the middle of the market is a valuable upgrade, but I’m not sure if its worth the money. Continue to develop Steele and Thompson, hope for better health from Stroman and Hendricks, and use use an internal option for the 5th starter. Kilian should be up to the task. Wesneski is already at AAA, Assad has been solid since his promotion to AAA and Wicks, Herz, and company are already at AA. We have internal options coming in the upper echelons of the minors.
Triantos isn’t a SS anymore. He’s barely logged any playing time there since he was drafted. He’s also at Low A. Made looks like he will stick defensively (pretty impressive defender imo), and his bat has started to look solid as well. However, he is at high A and struggling since his promotion. I’m super high on Hernandez, but the kid hasn’t even made it to a minor league club; he’s at complex ball. There is actually more up the middle talent then this, however they’re still far away/injured/ struggling. If we get a couple major leaguers out of these guys, then we beat the odds. As to your point of Morel playing SS, most scouts consider him backup caliber at that position, not someone you want to roll with everyday. I’m a big fan of Nico, but he’s had trouble staying on the field thus far, so I can’t pencil him in as the everyday SS just yet.
With our glut of outfield prospects in the upper minors (plus Alcantara having to be added to the 40 man this offseason), PCA at high A and mashing since return from his wrist injury, and Happ and Suzuki already on the roster, its highly unlikely we spend resources on our outfield, unless a Harper or Soto level talent becomes available. We have Nelsen Velazquez, Darius Hill, Narisco Crook, Alexander Canario (also already on the 40 man) and top prospect Brennan Davis all fighting for spots, with PCA soon to be added to the mix. Then there is the beginnings of another wave developing behind them.
1B seems like an unlikely spot to upgrade seeing as devoting tons of resources to that position for non elite level players never seems to achieve the desired result. Maybe the cubs throw money at Josh Bell or someone of that ilk. However, with Matt Mervis at AAA, and Bryce Ball hitting well at AA, combined with the fact the cubs have been rotating players through the position the last couple of years, shows me that they don’t want to devote lots of resources to that position. They appear to prefer the route of filling it with a more competent defender from another part of the diamond, or simply letting the odd man out play there. We’ve seen this with Willson and Wisdom getting a ton of play there, and I believe I saw McKinstry there as well.
We could look to upgrade 3B or C, however outside of resigning Willson there isn’t a legit upgrade available at C. I think there is more to a reunion with Contreras then some people believe. Now that the QO is (likely) attached, teams will have to significantly overpay for Willson, AND lose draft compensation. Maybe the cubs aren’t willing to go in the overpay range for him, nor should they. But if the trade deadline is any indication, Willson may not have the market he and the team originally thought he’d have. There is a universe where Willson resigns, and potentially for what we would have considered a bargain in the summer.
I think if the cubs are signing one of these SS’s they accept that the player will likely have to move off the position at some point in time. At that point, they are hoping one of our extremely young SS in the minors is ready to take over, or if Nico is aging well and not constantly getting hurt then he gets the nod. This is also a reason why they value positional flexibility. In some matchups, they may be able to field their best lineup by moving the SS addition to 3B, Hoerner at SS, and (Morel, Mads, etc) is playing 2nd. In addition, SS are the players most likely to move off of their position and still retain some value in the field, hence intelligent teams prioritize spending on them in free agency vs corner spots or bullpens.
The young players you mentioned are still A) too far away from the majors to have a significant impact on your annual contract and roster decisions B) carry massive risk
C) can be moved off of SS to play a bevy of other positions if their bats come along and player X (the SS the cubs sign in this scenario) is still at SS.
To further hit on point C, so many players are initially drafted as SSs and later have to move off the position. Even guys who make it to the show. Unless were preventing a GG defender from lining up at SS, having a blue chip all star caliber player in their mid to upper 20s at the position is the way to go, and a better allocation of resources than throwing money at the bullpen like the Rockies when we’ve proven that is unnecessary.
This is also the area the FO has shown the most interest in sacrificing future payroll. To think that the FO is not even interested in this move due to prospects at A ball and a bullpen they’ve built time and time again with pieces from the island of misfit toys is frankly an untenable position when put under the microscope. Even if they agree with you about the bullpen, there is still money to go full Rockies on the pen, and one of the 4 SS
It makes way more sense if you want a SS to trade for another teams top prospect who is blocked than to throw 300 million at one of the guys you are talking about. With all the SS talent all through baseball, I like keeping Nico there and letting the other talent develop rather than blocking them. Sorry. I still say it’d be a total waste of money that could be spent elsewhere.
How sure are you that they each receive 300 mil? Swanson is having a great year compared to what he normally does, but might not get over 100 mil due to his past performance. Bogaerts is hitting over 300, but power is way down and his defense is only servicable, most thinking he moves to 3rd soon. CC is having a down year, and hasn’t been elite defensively, and is a year older, so his realistic contract expectations will not be the same. Turner has been great, but he isn’t considered a plus defender at the position, and is pushing 30.
At this point, I’m not convinced any of them get over 300 million. The ranger’s massive overpays from last year were the exceptions, and they are likely out of the running this free agency anyways. I’d take any of the 4 at the right price, and I’d spend gladly spend the annual salary allotment on any of the 4 then overpaid, inconsistent bullpen pieces that can be replaced internally and for league minimum or near that.
Edit: I would spin the tires on Degrom, but the Mets might pull a super sized version of the Scherzer deal and give him something ridiculous like 4 years 200 mil.
“It makes way more sense if you want a SS to trade for another teams top prospect who is blocked than to throw 300 million at one of the guys you are talking about.”
This is just one of those painful comments that makes me wonder if you even watch baseball. but please feel free to give me an example of when a team traded their top shortstop prospects because they were blocked…
I had to ignore the first part. Spending time breaking that down would give me more gray hair.
@northside. Nice explanation of what is going on with the rebuild . . . but I’d just add Mervis as a likely middle of the order hitter, next year. He can be a solid hitter for years to come.
I’d be ecstatic if Mervis could fill that role, especially as a lefty bat with thump (who also makes contact), seeing as we have a lot of right handed power already here, and more on the way.
I’m just not ready to fully buy into the Mervis hype train. Though I fully believe he deserves his opportunity if he continues to hit his way to the show. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe Mervis was a 2 way player in college, and he has only recently focused on a future as solely a position player. Hopefully that explains why he is raking this year, and his performance is more indicative of his true talent level when only focusing on hitting.
Using logic to make a point about the Cubs….LOLOLOLOLOL!!!
Anybody who played a role in trading E.Jiminez for the worthless Quintana AND GRATUITOUSLY THROWING IN D.CEASE DESPITE NO SUCH DEMAND FOR HIM BY THE WHITE SOX is capable of anything! Hoyer is in waaaay over his head.
The Cubs have been in existence for 166 years, during which they’ve made maybe 10 good deals TOPS! As a 60 years+ fan, I’ll be holding my breath until these overpriced Shortstops end up somewhere else.
You’re absolutely right….it’s nonsense. That’s why we need to worry! The Cubs attraction to nonsense is like a moth’s attraction to a flame.
DANGER, WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!
The guys that traded Jiminez and Cease for Quintana are the exact same guys that traded Cashner for Rizzo, Feldman for Arrieta and Strop, Dempster for Hendricks, Samardzija for Russell, Torres for Chapman Godley for Montero and so on.
And to date—-Jiminez and Cease and their team have won exactly two playoff games since leaving the Cubs. It’s been five years.
If you bothered to follow the cubs with any depth over the years, you would realize Theo Epstein was in charge, not Jed Hoyer. Jed’s moves have already signalled a massive philosophical change from the Epstein regime. The terrible value during trades was Theo honing in on a player, and essentially meeting any ask the trade partner had.
Now if Jed is the same as you poorly insinuate, why would he refuse to move Contreras? If Jed is following Theo logic, he moves him to get something, even if the offers aren’t very favorable. Instead, Jed realizes how Theo was rightfully perceived as someone whom you could get one over on when it comes to trading. Jed realizes he has to show the other FOs that he isn’t Theo, and that just waiting him out or lowballing will not work.
None of this even covers the different types of prospects Jed has acquired compared to Theo, or the well documentes organizational changes in approach and development. Its fans like you, overly opinionated and with little to no actual knowledge in backing up your assertions, that give cubs fans a bad name. All of what I’ve mentioned is easy to look up, and it shows the clear differences between the last 2 people in charge of baseball operations of the cubs.
@northsidecrossrifles And now he is going to lose Contreras for a 2nd/3rd round sandwich pick. Yeah! That’ll show the other GM’s LOL!
You have such short sighted takes that half heartedly attempt to assess at most one variable that I’m not sure if you’re a troll or 16.
Do yourself a favor. If you don’t know how the free market works then defer to those of us that do.
Free market? We haven’t had a free market since the 19th century. If you think THIS is the free market then we might as well end it at this.
We do in MLB.
Nope. Revenue sharing and us large market franchises propping up the lowly A’s, Brewers, and those teams ruined that.
Hell, one could argue the CBA has killed it as well. A “luxury” tax?! Gotta limit what people spend. Very free market……
All 29 other teams still had the right to trade for Contreras if they wanted to. And very few teams would have been pushed over the luxury tax threshold by adding Contreras.
Cubs would have also paid Willy’s remaining money down to increase the prospect return
They can do that if they like
Look around. Eloy is not good. He probably won’t even get his option picked up on the 12 year contract they gave him before he hit a ball. Cease was a solid prospect with injury concerns when they traded him. He wasn’t some sure thing. Cease has looked great. Quintana was a solid pitcher for several years.
“Eloy is not good”? That’s some copium for sure.
It was a questionable trade in terms of value at the time, and it still shakes out as win for white sox. Q falling off a cliff after 700 plus innings of pitching like a solid 2 at the Cell still makes me have “cubs luck” reactions.
Though Eloy has to have been a disappointment up to this point. Still salty Theo included Cease when Eloy alone was more than Hahn was offered from anyone else. Still, Theo had his good moments as well. People tend to either A) give Theo all the credit or B) ignore the positives and focus on only the negatives. My eval of Theo falls in the middle. There is no 2016 without him, and 15-20 was the best period of cubs baseball since pre WWI
Umm. Ok. He’s constantly injured and can’t play defense. He’s hit well a couple months in 4 years. He’s not some superstar everyone makes him out to be in every discussion ever about this trade. He’s accumulated 4.1 WAR in 4 of the 6 controllable years the cubs traded. Awesome.
Theo realized he was likely trading more wins down the road for wins in the present and near future. Though I’m not opposed to the strategy when the time is right (I would consider the timing right in this scenario as well), he gave up far too much value at the time. Then factor into the equation how Q was more of an innings eater than the solid 2 he was for his 700 innings prior to the trade, as well as the fact Cease has been worth over 7 WAR so far and he should have never been in the deal in the first place, it looks even worse… Luckily for the cubs, as you mentioned with Eloy, he has been hurt and supbar overall for the most part. The trade isn’t near as bad as some fans make it out to be, but still an exercise in what NOT to do when negotiating trades.
White Sox logic- winning trades is more important than winning titles. Look how crappy the cubs, Red Sox and nationals are ran with their pathetic little titles and playoff success…
White Sox “we’ve been to the playoffs… weren’t impressed. That’s why we haven’t won a series. The real measure of success is winning trades and playing .500 ball… oh yeah!”
By the way…. How did the James shields trade treat you?
Rosenthal doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Cubs do not need a ss…Hoerner is there and has established himself as a top 3 defensively in mlb already. And he’s hitting nearly .300! Then there’s the fact that the Cubs are loaded at ss in the minors, especially Kevin Made & Christian Hernandez. The genius Rosenthal doesn’t realize what they need to turn the corner? A #1…an ACE to top the rotation! Any big contract will be for a stud starting pitcher!
Yes. The cubs need an ace. Stroman, Hendricks, Steele, Thompson, killian, wesneski, herz, Leeper, wicks can help fill out the rotation and bullpen. They have a lot of interesting arms in AA and AAA in their top 15-25 prospects. They don’t have anything close to an ace.
You talk about Rosenthal not knowing what he is talking about but then ignore the glaring light right in front of your face… I’m going to ask you:
Who did Hoyer target as his front office lieutenants?
Why did the Cubs bring in Yan Gomes?
What did the Cubs draft look like?
The Cubs are not signing an ACE, they are going full tilt to develop them out of their farm. Hoyer’s brass came from organizations with a reputation for developing pitching. Yan Gomes has a reputation for developing pitching, Nine of the Cubs first top 10 draft choices were pitchers. First trade deadline with the new front office, Cubs targeted pitchers.
16 draft picks and traded for several more. This is clearly the route they are going but doesn’t negate the fact their isn’t one pitching prospect in the top 100. They have a bunch of great arms but no one projecting close to a 1 right now. They have massive payroll flexibility and the smartest investment would be in a frontline starter. If some these guys they drafted and traded for develop into elite sp, fantastic. The cubs will have a payroll around 80-90 million heading into next year. It will be much lower in 2024. They can go sign and ace and a monster bat and be in a great position going forward. Zero chance or reason for this to be a prolonged rebuild.
What top 100 list are you looking at? Kilian has made it onto BA’s top 100, and we have at least 6 other guys (Wicks, Wesneski, Herz, Brown, Horton, Ferris) who are likely to be on these lists in the near future. That doesn’t begin to cover 15 plus guys with great stuff who could make a leap at any moment. And that group doesn’t even include the guys like Gallardo and Assad who have great pitchability, but may lack plus pitches and have mediocre velocity.
I personally don’t put tons of stock in the various top 100 lists, MLB pipeline being the worst of the bunch. They’re better than nothing, but they don’t have near the level of analysis capabilities as the MLB organizations. They’re notoriously behind on their evals and rankings.
I’d look more at the quality of the arms a team has in their minor league system, and then compare that across the league in terms of quantity. Then you factor in an org’s pitching development infastructure, which the cubs have made massive strides in over the last 3 years and are now considered industry leaders with their pitch lab and amount of funding into this type of infastructure.
The cubs have gathered a plethora of high upside arms, and still have guys who have high floors. This combination, along with the revamped pitching infastructure that already has success stories, will produce pitchers whose on the field production will drastically outpace whatever arbitrary ranking the prospect gurus place on them. There is simply too many quality arms for them to miss on everyone. It would be statistically unrealistic. Then when you’ve added personnel who’ve had key positions in organizations who’ve excelled at developing pitching, that increases the likelihood of your internal processes yielding above average or premium results.
They have a ton of interesting arms. Nobody that’s stands out as a top of a rotation guy coming anytime soon. Hopefully some of those guys hit. It generally takes some time to ramp pitching up and establish as a high end starter. My point is sign an established guy fill in with younger guys and maybe in 2-3 years you have multiple high end guys in your rotation and your only paying one guy any real money. I haven’t seen Kilian on any top 100 lists. Awesome if he made it onto baseball Americas update. Horton is probably 2 years away at a minimum and Ferris even longer. Kilian, Weneski and Wicks should be coming soon. I just haven’t seen any professional scouts labeling them top of the rotation guys. They could be of course.
Had an in depth reply typed up, but my phone seemed to eat it when I was on a call.
Long story short, no prospect since Strasburg has been rated as a TOR arm, and immediately came up and pitched as TOR arm for an extended period of time. You could attempt to make a solid case for guys like Blake Snell, but most pitchers have trajectories like he did; prospect pedigree, decent results, then in year 3 ace level. After that he’s been inconsistent.
The cubs will have guys rated around the Sandy Alacantara, Corbin Burnes range. Both have developed into aces. Essentially, there is no direct path to elite, ace level production. Prospect pedigree certainly makes it slightly more likely. But for every Strasburg there is a DeGrom, who was never even a top 10 prospect in the mets system. Development leaps are pretty unpredictable with the human element, so the best course of action is to acquire as many quality arms as possible, support them with massive infastructure, and play the numbers.
Horton has TOR potential, as does Ferris. Both come with considerable risk. The national prospect outlets haven’t caught up on them. They still are using metrics like Horton’s ERA to evalulate him. Some are barely aware that Horton was a young draft eligible soph, was a 2 way player (he played SS,3B,2B), went to Norman to play QB AND baseball, had TJ a yr and a half ago and hasn’t even focused on pitching in his young life. He just implemented his plus to plus/plus slider for the CWS and was the best pitcher there by a wide margin. He certainly comes with risks, but this is a kid who has never focused on pitching, is a top tier athlete, and can already hold velocity up to 98 as a SP while not having the benefit of a professional pitching program. He has the highest ceiling of any pitching prospect drafted, and though I was a bit hesitant when they took him, i personally saw him pitch in Omaha and was blown away.
I’ll end my rant at that.
Adolpho, Adolpho Phillips is that you? Did you ever go back to Panama and become a Doctor like you told Brickhouse once. Lol.
IMO what the Cubs should do in the off season. 1. Get themselves an Ace. However they need to do it. That’s the biggest need. they have options all through the system 2-5. Not sure there’s an ACE there yet. 2. Replace the bullpen AGAIN. Maybe it’s time to start keeping these guys instead of trading them away. 3. Find a Power bat at 3B or 1B maybe both. Wisdom has power but really doesn’t hit the ball enough to be proficient bat it does he? 4. Amaya looked like the long term option at C but TJ surgery has curbed his potential as he’s playing again at AA but he’s just DHing. all, the other C’s are young. Maybe trade Hendricks and Happ and see what you get. Someone will want them as Hendricks is worth what he will get next year and someone will take a chance on him. Things are looking up.
Judge would be loved in Chicago and an icon they could build around. I think he ultimate ends up with the Yankees again, but if not, from a marketing standpoint alone, he makes a lot of sense in Chicago.
Judge would be a Rock Star in Wrigley. Especially with the DH in the NL now. That would take one hell of an offer though. Hmmmmm
These Cubs are not on the cusp of being a World Series caliber team like when they signed Heyward after the 2015 season. They are not going to sign any free agent mega deals unless it’s to keep Contreras
Next season, Frank the Tank will be heading to Japan or to Korea to play ball. You heard it here first.
It turned midnight and Frank the Tank turned back into Frank the Tanker.
Frankie will end up back in Oakland – or maybe Colorado.
I disagree with those saying the Cubs don’t need to sign one of the big 4 shortstops. Yes, they have plenty of SS depth in the system, but a few of those guys either won’t pan out or could be used as trade bait to acquire proven major leaguers who fill other needs. Fans complain when the Cubs don’t spend, yet they don’t want a major free agent signing. Keep in mind, whoever they sign among the big 4 will likely move to third base.
Xander at 3rd makes a lot sense. His bat is elite. Wisdom has been getting some action at 1st. I wouldn’t give up on Madrigal just yet. Morel, Madrigal, Nico up the middle and Xander and wisdom on the corners. The cubs have a ton of high end outfield prospects and Suzuki for 4 more years.
Madrigal is not a starting MLB player.
And Wisdom is a nice player – off the bench.
Madrigal coming off missing the entire 2021 season. All I am saying is don’t give up on him just yet. He looked good prior to 2021 and was a top 30 prospect. He was considered to be a better version Nico at one point.
I’m not going to say Madrigal is done just yet. He is really solid defensively and I think he’s going to get his stroke back.
I also never thought Madrigal was “the guy” like so many people did. He has amazing bat to ball skills but he doesn’t walk. He’s actually so much like Hoerner it’s scary except that Nico is a much stronger defender across the board.
I always thought Nico was a little better than Madrigal based on his defense but I agree, way too soon to give up on Nicky the Recruiter.
I think he gets back in the cage this winter and works on getting a little more launch to improve his barrel rate and will be back next season peppering hits all over the field… not sure if that will be in Chicago or not though.
Madrigal is really solid defensively? That is not why he is on the field.
Really weird thing happened on the way to the 2022 season—Madrigal was supposed to be a great hitter, on base guy and a average to below average defender. Eye test shows exactly the opposite.
He is much better defensively that advertised. I would like to see the metrics on how many second baseman/shortstops are quicker with the exchange on a double play.
And watching him hit–and it may be injury induced—is painful—his contact rate is way down and he just hasn’t hit the ball hard all season.
I’d like to say let’s see what happens when he’s healthy—but we are bordering on close to two years now.
Madrigal is definitely not solid defensively.
Bogaert’s power is down. If we can leverage that into a lesser annual financial commitment, then I’d be game. I’d be less inclined to take him at the higher range of his market.
Madrigal had a poor start to the year, which can be understood given recent injuries but he’s back in the team and getting hits.
I hope there’s more to come
I agree with all of that (but maybe not the third base move?)… A proven SS, with some pop, and an ace would be something to build around much the way Epstein built around Lester. Hoerner would be great at 2nd. He was before. I agree, Gomes and Higgins, while not dynamic offensively, are solid defenders. The future in center is Pete Crow but it’ll be a couple of years til he’s up. 3rd base? It ain’t Wisdom.. I would add that of the core four, the guy they shoulda kept is Rizzo. He would’ve been a great guy to have during this rebuild.
Ugh ! Writer torturing poor cubs fans !
Cubs have the worse combination of minor/major league talent in all of baseball and their leadership team, unlike their fan base, knows it. They need to spend a few seasons drafting in top 5.
It’ll be a quiet winter by front office and a noisy one by disgruntled fans
Fan graphs has their farm in the top 5. What on earth are you talking about it? This comment is a big whiff
Exactly when did you suffer that brain injury? Your nickname is well earned because every post I’ve ever seen you make is a total whiff. You need to start wearing that Hockey helmet 24/7/365 again. Even in the bathroom.
Big whiff from Big Whiffa
I think someone like Josh Bell at 1B is a much better fit than one of those SS… Morel can always move to 1B if/when Brennen Davis gets called up.
Putting Morel at first would be a waste of his defensive capabilities, he’s a great athlete in center and middle infield.
1B are a dime a dozen. It won’t be hard to find something better than what they have now. Bell wouldn’t be a bad option and as far as Rizzo is concerned to Rondon, His back made him a risky long term sign and he didn’t get that offer from anybody else either. He’s already having problems again for the second time this season. As far as Morel at 1B, That’s not even remotely feasible.
Everyone talking like Ace starting pitchers grow on trees. There will only be two (2!) True ace’s available in free agency and that is only if they opt out of their deals and they are Justin Verlander and Jacob deGrom and odds are incredibly high that neither one is going to the Cubs
The obvious reply is you trade for one. You find someone that has Ace potential that another team doesn’t have room to pay. The Cubs have more than enough trade chips to get someone like that. Verlanders age and de Grom’s injuries make them unwise options anyway. Ohtani leaps to mind. I know the Cubs wanted him badly before he signed with the Angels.
Ohtani is not the “droid you seek”. He comes with all of the same injury concerns as deGrom and with a significantly higher price tag
Cubs are NOT going to trade for a high quality Ace, this offseason. They have put so much effort into building what they are, thru the minor league development – they aren’t in a position to decimate that in a trade at this stage.
Verlander is also 60 years old and will not be going to a team like the Cubs.
Velocity is still good. The truly elite, HOF caliber players can pitch into their 40s. I believe Verlander falls into that category for his generation.
If Houston lowballs Verlander, and the cubs make a commitment to one of the 4 SS’s and add another proven arm in the pen (they can build the rest of the pen internally and from the scrap heap like they do every year), I could see mutual interest. People forget the cubs were Verlander’s first choice when he was traded by DET. I believe the cubs never made a formal offer, or it was considered weak. The rest is history.
When you figure out what the Cubs FO is doing, let them know. It appears to just be chaos and dartboards at this pt. (And plz, don’t list Simmons as an alternative to those guys last year, he doesn’t even belong in the same paragraph these days.)
Simmons? He’s not even here anymore. When you figure out what you’re talking about write yourself a note.
Correa better think long and hard about opting out of his deal. He’s not having an outstanding season and nobody offered him a better average salary last winter. These guys are all delusional a-holes.
I love reading these comment sections, they never fail to make me laugh. All I can say is, thank god fans aren’t the ones running the team.
If the Cubs would sign Mike Clevinger and Josh Bell this off season I’d be happy..allow the others to develop and then go big or go home in 2024 with either Ohtani with some influence from Suzuki or Devers.
Just as I told everyone last off-season, the Cubs are NOT signing a big money FA SS. Hoyer loves Nico as a shortstop. His D numbers are great. I don’t know why they always seem to get mentioned, but Ricketts simply won’t let Hoyer sign a long-term deal for big money (Seiya averaged “only” 17M). He’s a damn cheapskate despite the highest ticket prices in baseball.
The cubs ran massive payrolls for years when the window was open, under the same owners. Now you think they won’t run a comparable payroll when they’re competing, nor will they shell out massive FA contracts, from the same owners who have already given 3 FAs deals of over 100 million (4 if you include Seiya’s posting fee), and many other large FA deals as well.
The same owners have put close to a billion dollars back into the ballpark, with zero help from the corrupt Chicago politicians who’ve given the sox and bears massive amounts of taxpayer funded cash for their ventures, while not even giving the cub’s owners tax breaks like they do their equally corrupt friends. And this is just in Chicago. So many other owners across the nation do not have to pour in even 10% of the cash the Ricketts have with Wrigely
Yet the common narrative is the Ricketts are cheapskates, when most owners do not devote the type of money the Ricketts have when contending, nor do they have to personally fund ALL stadium improvements.
The fact is that the organization was in a very unhealthy place post 2020. The core regressed and felt they were all worth more than they ultimately got when engaged in extension talks. The farm was weak due to Theo going for it, some trade value mishaps and questionable draft choices (floor over ceiling, risk averse, etc).
People hated to see it and live through it, but 21 and 22 needed to be reset years. Trade assets that have no future with your team for future assets, rebuild the farm, start to see dividends from your pitching infastructure, and build a yankees and dodgers esque foundation of talent in the minors that you promote to the majors when ready, or deal from the seemingly endless wealth of prospect capital to improve the major league roster. The cubs have the market and financial might to operate in a comparable manner to yanks and dodgers, but they didnt have the foundation.
Now that they’re close to building that stable foundation, it makes more sense to push in more chips in terms of payroll in the high end of the FA market. Their farm has the 4th most value in the entire minors according to fangraphs. They’re using their roster in the correct way; gathering info on flawed players to see if they’re a part of the future.
They are not near as far away in terms of competing for the division as people believe. Bad starting pitching luck this year, combined with a bevy of other injuries decimated them. They’ve been unlucky in one run games, and historically unlucky in extras. Those 2 categories have no year to year correlation in terms of repeat success or repeat failure. Then factor in how unlucky their were with the injury bug, and how neither the brewers or the cards are world beaters, next year is the year to add significant additions.
All these cub fans are counting their chickens before they’ve hatched. Just because a minor leaguer is doing well that doesn’t always translate to a great or even average major leaguer
I don’t think that’s true. They built a lot of minor league depth. Their top 30 is as good as anyone else’s in the majors. Better chance of hitting on a few guys. They have payroll flexibility and a deep minors. It’s a recipe for sustained success. I am one of the few people that thinks Hoyer has done a great job. We will see if I feel this way at the end of next year.
Most informed fans aren’t saying that. They’ve taken a quantity AND quality approach. Since there is such a massive attrition rate whereas prospects are concerned, and evals are notoriously fluid when the human element is a factor, they’ve put more eggs in the basket of a ton of “45” prospects than 3 to 5 “55+” like Bryant, Soler, Baez, Scwharber, Willy, etc.
Time will tell, but like CJML stated, their depth is massive. If several of their top 30 beat projections, or make a developmental leap (which is likely from a statistical standpoint), then they’re golden. They frankly have too many quality prospects where they’re bound to hit on a few, and more if they’re developmental changes truly are ahead of the curb like some within and outside of the org claim.
Edit: check out the pitching infastructure strides they’ve made, as well as taking flawed post hype prospects with k issues and developing them into solid regulars. They’ve made strides in certain areas since Epstein left
Exactly, just look at the Chisox.
Cubs absolutely had to trade Contreras. Don’t try it with “ThEy CaN mAkE hIm A qUaLiFyInG oFfEr.” The draft pick they will get from the QO is before the third round. No way no one was offering more than that for the guy catcher who started the All Star game for the National League team in a seller’s marker. And don’t try it with “ThEy CaN sTiLl ExTeNd Or ReSiGn HiM” either. They still could have signed him if they had traded him. Cubs have done this before (Jason Hammel) and also been on the other side of it (Aroldis Chapman).
You’re failing to factor in a key variable that many fans and analysts are missing; the effect of Hoyer eventually caving and coming down to meet a reduced price has on his future trade negotiations. This would hurt his bargaining position when engaging in all future trade discussions. Epstein unfortunately hurt the cubs bargaining position when negotiating trades by honing in on certain players, then overpaying to get them onto the cubs. Now Hoyer is tasked with changing the league’s perception of the org when trading. If he caves to what is internally measured as a a subpar offer (which all reports indicate was the reality of the situation), then he shows the league the book on the cubs in trade negotiations is still the same, thus having adverse long term effects.
This also makes a Contreras overpay in FA less likely, seeing as contending teams will lose a draft pick that would be valued between 8 to 20 million in future assets. That works as a price reduction variable to most functioning organizations (rockies not included). Due to teams unwillingness to meet what was likely a reasonable offer for Willy, it appears that he is not as heavily valued by the league as many on here speculated. That, combined with the extra price of losing that draft pick, may push Willy back into a pay range that the cubs are willing to fork out. Contreras clearly loves playing here, and seems like a sentimental person. I think this makes a reunion much more likely, if even slightly probable at this point all things considered.
For real. People need to stop saying “If JeD cAvEd AnD rEdUcEd HiS aSkInG pRiCe TeAmS wOuLd HaVe OfFeReD lEsS fOr HiS fUtUrE tRaDe ChIpS.” It’s literally not true. Even if you know the other team HAS to trade the player, you still have to be the highest bidder. If the player is even just kinda interesting and you put out lowball offers then someone else will offer something better and the Cubs will simply trade the player to that other team. Then you will have to answer to your fans why you didn’t just match the other team’s offer. And “Well they accepted a lowball offer in the past so they were supposed to accept our lowball offer this time!” isn’t going to be seen as an acceptable response.
What I like about this FO is that they appear to give zero f**** about what their uninformed fanbase thinks. Worry too much about fan perception and you set yourself up for failure. Fans are overwhelmingly unqualified to analyze these scenarios. Too much tunnel vision, too many sentimental takes.
I take it you fancy yourself an expert in negotiations? You clearly understand bargaining position, value extraction, and every other variable.
I negotiated for a living. It’s what enabled me to retire comfortably at 33 and have these titillating discussions on the internet in the middle of the day.
Your “If the Cubs accept a subpar offer then it will negatively affect what they are offered for future trade chips” argument only works for players that were never very valuable to begin with — not Contreras.
Apparently my response is awaiting moderation. Hopefully it gets approved, and you see it. Not sure why it went there, but unfortunately, that seems par for the course. I enjoy a bit of back and fourth when I choose to make an appearance.
You probably used a word the site’s sensors didn’t like. Your argument just doesn’t work with an All Star player like Contreras in a seller’s market when up to 29 teams are allowed to trade for him.
Your first sentence was fine. Your second sentence, without even reading my actual response, epitomizes our conservsation. You make loose assertions and barely make an effort to back them up. I’ve tried to have a respectful discourse, but you continue to make it difficult, even when presented with middle of the row responses.
I get it, some of my responses weren’t exactly cordial. However, have you considered how you come off as more of a troll than anyone interested in a debate of ideas? Now I realize half of MLBTR comes off as trolls, but given my comment history on this thread, I think its clear to anyone who reads this that I want to discuss baseball. Maybe I gave you the wrong impression, and for that I rep responsibility.
From the MLBTR Live Chat earlier today:
“Everyone understands those teams don’t have great leverage. The demand comes from pitting teams against one another, not threatening to just keep the player.”
Wait….. you just cited mlbtr live chat as a reputable source…..
Your Honor, I rest my case hahahaja
Is he wrong?
I have to agree with the Borowski guy. You citing MLBTR as some expert witness hurts your case. These writers generally know less than imformed fans do.
And that comment is trash. What is the OP basing that info off of? My comment got flagged, but I have direct knowledge of these situations. If a team is known to hold firm to their price, then the teams interacting with them are much more likely to meet that price. T
Holding firm is a business tactic utilized by juggernauts with better bargaining position and who can greater afford to take losses. We can debate the bargaining position of the cubs in this scenario, but they can afford to absorb small trade value losses, and what better way to convey that to the other franchises is to hold firm on their internal price?
I mean look at the Effros and Robertson trades. They held firm and got good prospects. Show the league that you give value as long as you’re receiving it, as well as the willingness to walk if the deal isn’t deemed legit by your internal experts.
“These writers generally know less than imformed fans do.”
I’d expect someone who is paid to write about baseball to be at least reasonably informed about it.
“My comment got flagged, but I have direct knowledge of these situations.”
Sure, Jan.
“If a team is known to hold firm to their price, then the teams interacting with them are much more likely to meet that price.”
Actually they just end up looking like the Rockies.
“Holding firm is a business tactic utilized by juggernauts with better bargaining position and who can greater afford to take losses.”
So… not the Cubs.
“I mean look at the Effros and Robertson trades. They held firm and got good prospects.”
They got good prospects because they were selling valuable assets that teams wanted and teams knew they had to be the highest bidder to get those assets.
“… as well as the willingness to walk if the deal isn’t deemed legit by your internal experts.”
And then lose the player in 3 months for a second/third round sandwich pick? Yeah, that’ll teach the other teams, LOL
“Contreras clearly loves playing here, and seems like a sentimental person.”
Well if he wants to play in Chicago so much then they definitely should have traded him. They would have had an easy time trading him then bringing him back. Why wouldn’t be want to come back to the Cubs organization that you say he loves so much when no one else is offering him the type of money he expected to receive (as you claim).
Also, him having a QO attached lowers what the Cubs are willing to offer him in FA too because they stand to gain a draft pick if he walks. Trading him removes this from the equation as the Cubs no longer receive any benefit by letting him walk.
There is no point in discussing the Contreras trade or lack there of. Fan completely overvalued Contreras, gms did not. Hardly any team would have been willing to put Contreras behind the plate in the middle of the season because he doesn’t have the reputation of being a guy who could seamlessly take over a pitching staff and maximize their performance. He was being coveted as a DH/spot starter/depth behind the dish and that was it.
If Contreras gets over 5/80 I’ll admit I’m wrong but I don’t see it. He isn’t a catcher contenders want. The QO is going to hurt him a lot also.
This is weird… I replied and had my comment removed when I was essentially in agreement.
Willy expecting Realmuto money was fantasy land thinking. I appreciate him as a person and was lucky enough to spend time with him personally, but this is still a business.
TrAdInG cOnTrErAs WoUlD hUrT hIs BaRgAiNiNg PoSiTiOn WhEn EnGaGiNg In AlL fUtUrE tRaDe DiScUsSiOnS !
CoNtReRaS cLeArLy LoVeS pLaYiNg HeRe AnD sEeMs LiKe A sEnTiMeNtAl PeRsOn !
*insert clown emoji*
What teams were offering what for Contreras? What we do know was that the teams that traded for a catcher went for those with little trade values. The more valuable ones (and they don’t approach Contreras’s value) had multiple years of control and went to Boston, San Francisco
and Tampa Bay. Boston and SF were in sort of a no man’s land this deadline and also traded catchers away.
What were the Cubs trading for? Starting pitching. They were probably looking for a prospect equivalent in value to Wesneski, who they got from the Yanks for Effross. The Mets, who could have used a catcher, didn’t have that. Also, Sandy stated before the deadline that he wasn’t keen on trading prospects this year.
Well I obviously don’t know what was or wasn’t offered but with Contreras playing as well as he has this year and a seller’s market it’s tough to believe the Cubs couldn’t have beaten a 2nd/3rd round sandwich pick.
When you are rebuilding you trade for talent over fit and figure out how it all fits together later on.
It really wasn’t a seller’s market for rentals like Contreras. Maybe the only one comparable was Benintendi. And the Yanks were looking for outfielders, didn’t have any room at DH, and had an All Star catcher of their own.
The best the mets could do IF that type of pitcher was what the FO was set on was Kyle Allen, who is essentially a very talented lottery ticket.
Also, good to see you on the thread Donny! I’ve noticed you’re one of our reasonable people on the board. Its encouraging to see people like you around here.
Thanks, same to you. And Allan is definitely a lottery pick since he hasn’t pitched since 2019. He may need a bionic arm at this point.
Still worth more than a 2nd/3rd round sandwich pick
If that was the only variable influencing the outcome (sandwich pick vs prospect return), why do you think Jed Hoyer opted to NOT move him for that package? Is it bc he is incompetent, lacks your baseball acumen, was on a bender, etc?
There are clearly a variety of valid explanations. However, disregarding all other potential explanations in favor of only one that centers around draft pick compensation while refusing to assess any other potential side effects of accepting a lesser offer seems to do the situation a disservice when an in depth analysis is applied.
“Is it bc he is incompetent, lacks your baseball acumen, was on a bender, etc?”
Yes.
Your responses get better and better. Thank you for being my entertainment on the ride home from work. Its just hilarious bc you struggle with developing coherent arguments that go slightly beyond surface level, yet you act like you’re above the guy you disagree with and other people. The delusion is impressive
Who the heck comments on MLBTR while driving?
Adding on… the fact that you choose to go with ad hominems rather than coming up with a legitimate counter argument says all I need to know.
With the pads going all in on Soto (and rental Bell), and other playoff squads opting for improvements on the margins vs all star talents like Willy and Happ, the cubs got stuck in a tough spot.
Was it the right call? I mean we didnt see the offers, so were basing this off of info we dont have access to.
But I clearly lean toward the minority side where you “hold what you got” considering this is a shark infested environment who will never forget how you sold low in a sellers market when teams refused to meet a reasonable asking price for your top rental bat who catches.
I personally think the draft being moved back adversely influenced the TD. Teams seemed a bit risk averse this deadline.
Trader Jerry and Preller did their normal thing, and Cashman made calculated moves, but it’d seemed quiet.
I’m on a train…… I mean this makes sense reading your comments. You can’t fathom that “ride home” could mean I’m driving, or riding shotgun, or riding a train or bus, or ANYTHING other than what you assumed…. You are only capable of looking at one thing at a time. Hahahaja whats the point of rebutting anything you’ve said when the other people are already doing so and you’ve become a broken record
Absolutely no one would have cared if the Cubs “sold low in a sellers market when teams refused to meet a reasonable asking price for your top rental bat who catches.” The Cubs don’t look smart for not trading Contreras. They look like the Rockies. Not an organization you want to emulate.
They haven’t rebutted anything hahahaja
YES!!! You are winning! Good boy machine!
Two camels in a tiny car?
I didn’t address this initially due to other areas of disagreement with your original post, but your comment stating
“They still could have signed him if they had traded him. Cubs have done this before (Jason Hammel) and also been on the other side of it (Aroldis Chapman).”
doesn’t attempt to address the QO issue that we have been actively discussing. The cubs current situation with Willson is to extend QO or not. They didn’t have the option with either of the players you’ve cited above due to trading Hammels, and trading for Chapman.
Again, this is a key area you either A) disregard B) apply selectively or C) fail to adhere to its application
I would like to discuss the situation in terms of the multi directional value the QO has in terms of the scenario involving Willy at the deadline, as its potential outcomes.
You are enganging in the logical fallacy of false analogy when comparing the cubs current situation with Willson to the Hammels and Chapman situations. There are different values assigned to QOs (and the past TDs in general) and the cubs have a track record of approaching them differently. Before we move on, this should be acknowledged.
I didn’t disregard it. I just don’t believe no one was offering a better return for Contreras than a 2nd/3rd round sandwich pick based on his level of play this year and what other players who were traded netted.
If the Cubs sign one of the “big free agent shortstops” say Carlos Correa for example…they’ll probably ask him about playing 3rd base. They need a 3rd and 1st basemen. And starting pitchers. And bullpen help.
The 2b for the future cubs is currently on the team now, whether it’s morel madrigal, Nico, mckinstry, but the cubs need a bat for 1b, c, and 3b.
Big SS bat plus keeping Willson to help with C, plus wisdom/Higgins/mervis/Willson(?) will handle 1b next year.
Ian Happ will get traded, no chance of an extension. He’s good and solid, but cubs have way too many internal options for the OF, and too many needs, to give Happ big money.
Happy, Hendricks, and Stroman will be traded (Stroman has a player option for 24, so he’ll be traded by 23 deadline).
Cubs probably need an ace pitcher, but will probably go for another Stroman level pitcher and bank on some of their internal options working out.
The cubs direction is clear, they will be in the market for bats while they continue to go full tilt in developing home grown pitching.
A lot of people have slept on the Cubs pitching prospects but they have a lot of arms on the horizon Steele and Thompson have already made their presence felt, Kilian, wicks, hertz, wesneski and brown are not too far (brown may be the steal of the deadline deals). Then several guys coming off injury most notable being Alzolay and huer.
Nowhere else to comment on this, that Harry Caray seventh inning stretch was terrible and in bad taste. If you must have him perform, play a video not an actor. Besides, this is a Reds home game.