The Red Sox have already been linked to multiple free agent pitchers, with such names as Kodai Senga, Andrew Heaney, Seth Lugo, and Tyler Anderson (since signed by the Angels), all reported as names on Boston’s radar, and the Sox also have interest in re-signing two of their own free agents in Nathan Eovaldi and Rich Hill.
Corey Kluber is also on this list, as the right-hander tells Alex Speier of the Boston Globe that he had again had some talks with Boston this winter. After previously negotiating with the Red Sox in each of the right-hander’s previous two trips to the free agent market, Kluber ended up signing with the Yankees for the 2021 season and then with the Rays in 2022. Kluber posted a 4.34 ERA and a league-best 1.2 BB/9 over 164 innings with Tampa Bay, and pitching in Boston would have some extra appeal since Kluber and his family live in Winchester, Massachusetts.
While the Red Sox are actively seeking out more arms, Speier writes that it doesn’t appear the team is aiming for the very top of the pitching market. This means that Justin Verlander, Jacob deGrom, Carlos Rodon, and Chris Bassitt are unlikely to be landing in Boston, for a variety of reasons. In the view of most pundits (including MLB Trade Rumors’ own top 50 free agent list), these are the four established Major League starters likely to score the biggest contracts on the open market this winter, and it seems as though the Red Sox aren’t eager to make quite such a big commitment to a single player. “The Sox are more likely to spread spending across several targets,” Speier writes, so hypothetically, Boston could sign the likes of Heaney and Eovaldi for less than it would cost to sign Verlander alone just in 2023 salary.
Senga could be something of an exception, as the Japanese ace is drawing enough widespread interest that it now looks like he could land one of the bigger contracts of any pitcher this offseason. MLBTR projects Senga for five years and $75MM, and while the Red Sox have interest, it is possible the bidding could get beyond their comfort zone.
The qualifying offer is also a factor, as deGrom, Rodon, and Bassitt all rejected the QO and thus have draft compensation attached to their services. Since the Red Sox surpassed the luxury tax threshold in 2022, they’d face a higher penalty ($1MM in international bonus money, and their second- and fifth-highest picks in the 2023 draft) for signing a qualifying free agent. Since Eovaldi and Xander Bogaerts also rejected qualifying offers, the Red Sox could net two compensatory picks back if those player signed elsewhere, yet those picks would only fall after the fourth round as further penalty for exceeding the luxury tax. In short, the draft-related tradeoff probably means that the Sox would prefer to not sign a QO free agent, all things considered.
This strategy might not hold much appeal to Boston fans, who haven’t been pleased about the big-market team’s approach to spending in recent years. The Red Sox haven’t had much progress in trying to lock up Bogaerts or Rafael Devers to new contracts, and the team’s desire to reset their tax bill in 2020 was one of the factors behind trading Mookie Betts to the Dodgers. However, the Sox were willing to go over the tax line this past season, despite only a longshot chance at a playoff berth at the trade deadline. The Red Sox ended up with a disappointing 78-84 record and now an extra tax burden to boot, in the form of the QO-related penalties.
That said, it was just two offseasons ago that chief baseball officer Chaim Bloom also used the “spread out the spending” strategy to bolster the roster that ended up making the 2021 ALCS. And, back in the 2012-13 offseason, the Red Sox famously made a number of lower-level acquisitions that all paid off in the best possible fashion, as Boston captured the 2013 World Series. So there is certainly recent evidence that a more measured approach to the offseason can work out swimmingly, and of course, there is still plenty of quality pitching available even in the second or third tiers of the open market, not to mention what else might emerge in trade talks.
Let Eovaldi walk (Please don’t bring him back) Give me Senga Kluber and Rich Hill as a swingman.
So if that crap rotation gets to the playoffs, you’re comfortable with Hill and Kluber getting playoff starts?
Sox – I agree with you on Hill, but I don’t think you should be so down on Kluber.
As for Mark’s two supposed examples of a more “measured approach”, he couldn’t have picked a worse example than 2021. That team was carried by the large contingent of Red Sox players acquired pre-Bloom, along with players who were acquired via trade (Pivetta, Schwarber).
Especially when you’re talking about the pitching, as Bloom’s “measured approach” to free agent signings got them Perez (4.74 ERA) and Richards (4.87 ERA) and Andriese (6.03 ERA).
Crediting 2021 to Bloom’s free agent signings made me want to vomit, as nothing could be further from the truth.
So players Bloom acquired via trades don’t count as additions Bloom made to the 2021 team?
Yet many of you love to credit and praise Dombrowski for 2018. Even though most of the core players were already here and the majority of the big prospects he traded for other core players were already in the system.
Of course not. You think people like that would ever give credit to him for anything? They constantly whine about the bullpen, yet the 3 best bullpen pieces were all acquired by Bloom.
DD gets credit because of his in-season pick ups. They don’t win in 18 without Eovaldi and Pearce. Moreover, unless you want to argue the trade returns didn’t help, who did he give up who became a big time contributor? The farm had quantity but not quality as those players were already on the roster. His big mistake was re-signing Sale who already was breaking down.
@Fever Pitch Guy I get that Bloom isn’t the greatest but I think you conveniently go out of your way to dislike him.
king – That’s not the subject, the subject is Bloom’s approach to free agent spending. His farm system has yet to bear much fruit, but he has yet to make a significant free agent signing because he refuses to spend on upper-tier talent.
To date he has given out just ONE free agent contract in excess of $14M total, and that was Story. So far it’s been a bad contract, hopefully that will change.
And I hafta add, it was beyond stupid that he went over the luxury tax threshold by just a little. Either you go all in and blow by the threshold, or you stay under it. Common sense, why pay those hefty penalties for just a few million.
kenny – It’s been said many times by others, Dombrowski acquired impact players … most of whom were among the game’s biggest stars..
Sale
Price
JD Martinez
Kimbrel
Eovaldi
Pearce
Yes of course he inherited some great players, notably Devers-Xander-Mookie, but he also brought in guys who produced big time.
Kenny – Humor me, which three?
One he was able to grab off Rule 5 because he put together a last place team in 2020.
Who are the other two? Schreiber … one good season, hope it continues.
Who is the third? Please don’t say Robles. LOL!!!!
dewey – Well said, thank you.
pwndroia – If there was a way I could bookmark all the times I’ve given him credit, I would provide the links.
Here’s some of them …
Pivetta
Hernandez
Schwarber
Schreiber
Trading Vazquez
Whitlock (even though he had help)
Wacha
And I’ve repeatedly said John Henry has given Bloom a smaller budget to work with.
I am one of the few people here who gives both praise and criticism to Bloom, sorry if I have more reason to give him criticism than praise. You know how that can change? Him putting a better product on the field.
Fever, his farm choices aren’t suppose to have paid dividends unless you mean in 21, he should have mortgaged the farm to get past Houston.
Fever, don’t count 20 which was really a 60 game exhibition.
He’s never had the payroll space to spend on an upper tier free agent. This article points out how the Sox were one of a handful of teams paying the CBT in 2022. That speaks to the payroll level they are at, yet you and many other Sox fans continue with the complete BS take of him being cheap.
king – Based on contract and 2022 performance, which player would YOU have signed … Story, or Schwarber?
I have yet to see anyone pick Story.
dewey – True, but that 2020 team was put together long before anyone heard the word Covid and it was destined to be a last place team even over a 162 game season.
king – Yes or no, Bloom committed $140M guaranteed money to a SS coming off an arm injury and consistently declining seasons.
Yes or no, Bloom took on the JBJ contract and signed Robles and Diekman and Paxton while getting virtually no production from the 4 of them.
Add it all up and it comes to extremely foolish spending, which THEN forces Bloom to go cheap where it’s really needed … ya know, like a bullpen and 1B which were both total crap all season.
It’s called a budget, don’t overspend and you will be able to afford necessities.
There was never a mandate to stay under the cap, only to spend wisely and he can’t even do that right.
Fever – Schwarber every time. Story has been in decline for four straight seasons.
@Fever Pitch Guy
Agreed, maybe I just only see your “bad” Bloom posts but I definitely see your posts toward him as half empty.
And don’t get me wrong, I’m not a Bloom favorite myself but I tend to keep the glass at half without being full or empty because that is essentially where he is. He hasn’t helped us out nor has he hurt us with big deals either.
pwndroia – I feel exactly as you do, gonna wait and see what Bloom does this offseason.
Henry is a businessman first and foremost, if the Red Sox are a non-contender again next year and revenue drops even more then I think Bloom could be gone.
Fever, trading Betts and having an injured Sales just to name two big reasons why 20 sucked but again it was only 37% of a typical season. I don’t count last or the WS winning Dodgers. It was not a baseball season.
Crediting 2021 to Bloom’s free agent signings made me want to vomit
================================
The good part is that I have reminded you of the numbers so often, I think I have memorized them.
He signed Renfroe, Kiki. Richards, Perez, Marwin & Santana.
He pad $29.1M for 8.1 bWAR, with no long-term liabilities.
That’s excellent.
Saying to pick between Story or Schwarber doesn’t speak to being cheap. A 6 year $140M contract isn’t cheap. Find a new refrain because that one has no truth behind it.
dewey – You’re preaching to the choir, I have always called 2020 a joke of a season. In my view it simply doesn’t count.
But that doesn’t absolve Henry/Bloom of the team they were prepared to put on the field. Betts and Sale couldn’t have saved that team, the bullpen and starting rotation was absolutely atrocious.
Joe – I was being kind by focusing on the pitching which is the subject of the article, but THANK YOU for bringing up two more busts … Marwin and Santana.
I know you’re not a numbers guy, so I’ll tally Bloom’s 2020-2021 offseason free agent signings for you:
2 GOOD and 5 BAD
GOOD = Hernandez 4.9, Renfroe 2.3
BAD = Marwin -0.4, Santana -0.3, Perez 0.5, Richards 0.3, Andriese -0.6
I’m also being kind for not including the 2nd year of Hernandez’s contract.
TOTAL 2021 bWAR = 6.6
You’ve failed the audit ;O)
king – Please stay on topic. Bloom foolishly overspent on Story when he could have had a better player in Schwarber for far less … a player that Bloom himself had the opportunity to evaluate up close while Schwarber played for the Red Sox.
Schwarber led the league in homeruns, made the All-Star Team, won the Silver Slugger award, and got MVP votes.
Story didn’t accomplish anything, except getting Bloom to pay him $80M more than Schwarber. That’s one reason why so many see Bloom as a complete tool.
Maybe wanted a SS to replace Bogaerts when he left.
Duh.
Samuel – They had one more year to find a replacement for Xander, and as it turns out Story may not be playing SS even if Xander does leave.
vt – You are 100% correct my friend!
I don’t see how you can say the Story contract is bad after one injury prone season. He was 2nd on the team in HRs, 4th in RBIs and led the team in SB in only 94 games!. He was also top 25 in OAA in the entire league and 3rd for 2B. The best defensive player on the team by far.
Arguing his arm issues is fair but not so much at 2B. He had the lowest rated arm strength but still one of the better defenders. If they move him to SS then it will be an issue, especially with the bigger bases coming. He’s a much more valuable player at 2B.
Eovaldi and Martinez were both coming off injuries at deadline.. I’m assuming trade offers didn’t blow anybody away. I can also assume that they already knew they wanted to give Eovaldi the qualifying offer. unless he totally blew his arm out.. For whatever reason they love the guy. I thought by not trading JD it meant he was getting the QO but that wasn’t the case. So I totally agree at the very least they should have traded him and gotten below the luxury tax.
I also thing that there was no reason to think that all the players that performed in 2021 weren’t going to do the same in 2022. Nobody could have predicted all the injuries or lack of power. Just like nobody could have predicted Schwarber hitting 46. If the team would have hit like they did in 2021 and stayed healthy then signing Story and not Schwarber wouldn’t be such a big deal as it is now.
The only issue with Schwarber is fielding. Story at least plays the field. Schwarber has that amazing bat though.
Joe, I hate using saberstats to measure a GM. Baseball is a sport with too many intangibles that can’t be measured by a computer, balance sheet or annual report.
Fever, because Henry pulled the plug on continuing to spend.
Inconsistent amazing bat.
Granted, fielding will always be a factor with Schwarber. At the end of 2021 Sox said the defense was a concern and rightfully so. Signing Story was part of this. Since June of last last season Sox were one of the best defensive teams. Clearly a success.
When does the hitting overtake the fielding? If you look at the generic WAR rating, Story in half a season was better than Schwarber. Where would Story have been without the injuries? If he had played even 140 games he could have been a 4-5 WAR guy..
I’m not one to nor will ever dismiss Schwarber’s bats but hitting HRs is not what wins rings. Yankees are a perfect example of this.
Based on contract and 2022 performance, which player would YOU have signed … Story, or Schwarber?
I have yet to see anyone pick Story.
===================================
I’d make a modest wager that Story will have have a higher bWAR in 2022.
it was destined to be a last place team even over a 162 game season.
================================
Unlikely.
We played .500 after the first 19 games of the year. 20 of those games were against teams > .500, so we were playing pretty well.
He is a businessman, that why he just purchased the Penguins, now selling Liverpool and wants to buy the Washington Redskins. Forget big spending again this year boys.
2 GOOD and 5 BAD
I’m also being kind for not including the 2nd year of Hernandez’s contract.
======================
You’re treating this as binary. That’s like say that Theo had a bad draft in 2011 because he only had good picks (Betts, JBJ, Shaw & Barnes) and 46 bad picks.
You have to accept that Bloom did well with his FA signings in 2021. The numbers are there.
I don’t see how you can say the Story contract is bad after one injury prone season.
=================================
The haters want to ignore the HBP.. He missed 39 games with the HBP. If one were to extrapolate his bWAR to include the 39 games he missed with the HBP, his bWAR becomes 3.54.
pwndroia – I totally agree. Schwarber is an average OF’er while Story is still an above average infielder.
But for the contract given to Story, the Sox would have been much better off signing someone like Iglesias who BTW had half the WAR of Story at a fraction of the cost.
dewey – You are 100% correct, but what you said does not compute with Joe and never will. LOL
vtbaseball14 hours ago
Fever – Schwarber every time.
===============================
I’m willing to bet that Story has a higher bWAR in 2022, despite missing a quarter-season on the DL with a HBP.
Eovaldi and Martinez were both coming off injuries at deadline.. I’m assuming trade offers didn’t blow anybody away.
================================
I doubt anyone would’ve taken JD’s contract for absolutely no return. The salary was too high, and the production was non-existent.
Someone would’ve gambled on Eovaldi, but we might not have gotten more than we’ll get with the QO.
I’m usually a ‘sell-everyone’ type of guy, but I think the upside of a playoff run (3.5 out) outweighed the modest return we’d have gotten for anyone but Bogaerts.
deweybelongsinthehall4 hours ago
Joe, I hate using saberstats to measure a GM.
================================
Using bWAR for Story v Schwarber was a matter of convenience. Story had the better bWAR, despite missing a quarter-season with a HBP. Given the measurements, I feel comfortable saying it was close, at worst, or Story was ahead by a decent amount.
Even going by FG, they have Story projected for a higher WAR than Schwarber in 2023.
Joe- I’d still rather have Schwarber. Story is too streaky for me. Those streaks pump up his stats but, as far as I know, don’t reflect those long stretches of drought that result in lost win opportunities.
I can’t argue with that if we made up the offense elsewhere.
Everyone knew we weren’t going to the playoffs even if we were only 3.5 games back. There were several teams ahead of us.
What’s not to dislike about Bloom? He’s following a legend and his lack of experience is cemented in the numbers.
DD 104 games over .500 in nearly 4 seasons
Bloom 4 games over .500 in 3 seasons (No 2020 shortened season crap, it would have made the numbers even worse!!)
Bloom after 3 years has proven he can’t do the job. That’s indisputable based on the numbers. Hanging on to guys who fail miserably isn’t a winning strategy and that shakes out with a 5th place finish in 2022.
There was no logical reason to extend Bloom or Cora for that matter. Both have failed miserably. Bloom’s results are more clearly documented but all the bad moves by Cora still have piled up and are irrefutable. Perpetuating a losing proposition is bad baseball.
Expectations need to be set low for 2023 so there is upside if they make it to .500. All that money but nobody in charge that knows how to spend it effectively puts Boston behind the 8 ball for years to come. All fans can hope for is 1 year contracts and a new GM in 2024.
Fever – 104 over .500 versus 4 games over .500. Nothing more needs to be said about the Red Sox under Bloom versus Dombrowski. Well I guess one could add that Bloom spent more during his first 3 years and was 100 games less effective in his spending. Or you could consider the fact that one GM started with Papi retiring and a limited pitching staff and the other started with a roster 12 months removed from a RING.
So many perspectives and all say “BAD JOB” by Bloom. 3 years was 2 years too many and now it’s going to be 3 years too many!!
Did you subtract Mookie’s WAR? Be fair. The man is a menace as a GM. Tore down a great franchise in 3 years.
Dewey – Did Henry really pull the plug on spending or did he use spending to justify the removal of Mookie?
Bloom has spent more than Dombrowski and went over the new $20MM higher CAP without a star player procured. Ownership isn’t the problem other than their need to remove Mookie and Price. The coffers are still over=flowing and the right GM might be able to take the available money and build a real contender rather than an ill-advised version of TB. The talented TB acquisition group was headed by Bloom but he wasn’t the brains since they are still performing at a high level and Boston is not.
No, money isn’t why Boston’s roster is the worst in memory. The money is there but Boston needs the right GM to EFFECTIVELY USE IT. The last guy to do that just took PHILLY to the World Series. If he was still in Boston the team would look significantly better. That single mistake by ownership was the snowball that turned into an avalanche.
The schedule dictated the slump at the beginning, the surge in mid season and the ultimate disaster in July. Same as most years. The team was fifth best in the division not because of injuries or anything other than a lack of talent and quality management.
Caveat Emptor!
And Wacha? I like Abreu/ Casas 1B! Haniger LF and Lugo
1st base is likely set with Casas/Dalbec. Granted, Dalbec’s stock is low and this upcoming season is probably a make or break situation for him. Dalbec represents a cheaper option and he has hit better against southpaws. I don’t see them needing to spend at that position when they have other needs. It seems like Haniger and Seattle have a mutual interest in a reunion.
The team can’t get everyone. I still think there’s a chance Bogie is back and that’s why they’re not shopping for pitching at Tiffany’s. Shopping at Zale’s is fine. Just stop searching for diamonds at WalMart.
He went to Jared’s!
Bring Bogaerts back and sign one of Eovaldi/Kluber. Sign Senga and an Outfielder and that would be a decent offseason
Dotty – No, he’s shopping at Porky’s Pawn Shop.
Same owner today! I chose Zale’s because I went to college with the original Zale’s granddaughter who dated a frat brother of mine.
That would be a great off season
Sale, Eovaldi, Senga, Bello, Pivetta
Paxton?
No he should exceed the luxury tax because they can afford it, over the limit last year got a last place finish… I think the five-year feet of the Boston Red Sox rest in the hands of John Henry, he’s the one that has to sign off on big deals
Agreed Michael. Given the pandemic related losses all clubs felt, I have no issues. Just now is the time to spend again only do it smartly. If the players aren’t there now, spend for 24 when more of the young talent will be ready.
Sale, Eovaldi, Senga, Bello, Pivetta.
Whitlock, Houck, Lugo, Rogers, Schreiber, Barnes, Kelly, Crawford/Winckowski
Bellinger CF Yoshida RF
lmao
It’s cute that y’all think Senga is coming here to Boston. bloom WILL NOT win a bidding war. It’s not who he is, unless, like with Barnes extension Kiké’s extension and Wacha’s signing , he’s bidding against himself.
On the Senga post, just the other day, many fans imagined him on their team all over the league. Its kinda cute how people only get uptight when Red Sox fans do it.
vt – It’s been documented that he refuses to engage in bidding wars, which means he will never pay market value (or higher) for highly sought after players.
John Henry got burned badly by the Sale and Price contracts, so he is certainly a factor.
Sorry, I’m just a realistic Red Sox fan that will believe it when he sees it when it comes to bloom spending the top dollar to get someone. I don’t live in cloudcukooland like some of you bloomnatis.
Didn’t Henry get burned by the Crawford and Sandoval contracts as well? I’d argue that they hurt even more, yet he spent plenty of money after them.
As for bloom, if that’s the case then he doesn’t belong in Boston.
The Sox still have more championships in the Henry era so let’s be fair. He just needs to loosen the purse strings again because another last place finish and between attendance and NESN, it will hit his pocketbook
1) Senga is not going to cost “top dollar”. Hes more in the Trevor Story range, than he is in the Aaron Judge range.
2) Bloom has never had the cap space (in Boston) or budget (in TB) to spend freely. This year is the first offseason, and we’re about to find out. So, how would you have any “realistic” view regarding an unknown?
3) Most FA signings are not worth it in the long run, so maybe NOT spending “top dollar” and overpaying is smarter than being stuck with the bill for a Price, Sale, and KungFu Panda type deals.
He has to spend the most money in order to get him, that’s top dollar and he won’t spend it.
vt – Yes if you want to go that far back he certainly did, along with many others like Castillo and Craig etc … but the difference is the Red Sox were AL East champions FOUR times between 2013-2018 so the bad contracts were absorbed by on-field success and record setting revenue.
It was the 2019 team, highest payroll in baseball, that pissed off John Henry because they didn’t even make the postseason with that enormous payroll. Ironically it was the complete mismanagement of the players that caused them to miss the playoffs that year, the team did virtually nothing in ST and was woefully unprepared to start the season … and Cora openly stated winning games in April and May was not a priority.
Fever, look at the spread between winning. 07 to 13 is like 18 to 24.
I’m not a Red Sox fan. I’m an MLB fan.
I find these comments funny, but fans of many teams that post here see things your way as well.
None of these never-ending gripes discuss baseball. All you people do is talk about money and that they have to spend more. I come on here and write that they they need to develop the players they have under contract….and that’s ignored. Fine. I understand.
Red Sox and Yankee fans spent 30-35 years chasing after the top free agents each year – and seemed to get at least one of them. Made great trades by taking on salary when you were one of the 2 organizations running up the price of players. All you people understand is spending money.
MLB has changed. You think if the Red Sox buy a top player this off-season they’ll zoom past the Orioles this year and in the intermediate future? The O’s are stacked with excellent young and hungry players that run out ground balls at full speed every game, play solid fundamental baseball on both sides of the ball, and a coaching staff that seems to keep making them better. The Guardians the same (different division).
Your team is already in the luxury tax, and you want them to spend another $40-50m a year. No offense – but you guys are in fantasyland. MLB has changed and you guys think the late 70’s to the early 2010’s are coming back.
My beef with the Bloom administration is that I don’t see them developing the players they have under contract well – major and minor leaguers. Bloom supposedly was an important part of the Rays pitching development. If he can do that in Boston it changes the entire organization. And that takes time. But he’s going in his 4th year and if that inconsistent and at times crummy pitching staff doesn’t show some improvement in 2023 (especially playing home games in that park) then yes – they’ll need to find another Baseball Ops head. And the new person won’t be instructed to have a $350m payroll in 2024.
dewey – If we knew they’d win it all in 2024, or even just make the ALCS, I’d be patient and content waiting until then.
But here’s the thing … Sox still had Pedroia, Ellsbury, Ortiz, Lester in 2013.
Who do the Sox have left from 2018 if Xander and Devers are gone?
And the Sox were good from 2008-2011, compared to being awful in 2019, 2020 and 2022.
So not an accurate comparison, don’t ya think?
@Samuel yeah I don’t disagree about where the Sox are . I once liked Bloom but no longer.
He’s interested in Heaney and Kluber. Same guys that Friedman and Neander went after the year before.
He’s a year late and a dollar short. I haven’t been terribly impressed with his work. The farm isn’t anything special. He hasn’t done a great job at injecting talent or fixing broken guys. Granted, he needs to set up a whole new system because they were bare and behind. Just not impressed with him thus far.
Not the first time he’s grabbed guys from his old bosses either.
Hill and Wacha last year. Even Eovaldi was a former TB guy. Thoroughly unimpressed with this guy. This will be the year he either changes that or is another middling executive.
Orioles – Alex Speier did a great analysis on the prospects Bloom has acquired, it’s an eye-opener on how bad Bloom has done thus far … and Alex works for the Boston Globe, owned by FSG.
Fever, if the team stopped spending and traded away everyone like in 97 and 03 with the Fish, I’d have an issue. Sometimes turnover is needed.
He’s trying to build a team with a farm that’s sustainable long term. Give those cheating Astros credit for the run that they’re on.
Fever, where’s the link? You don’t want to give him credit for Whitlock. He still had to identify, grab and keep him on the roster.
He has to spend the most money in order to get him, that’s top dollar and he won’t spend it.
===========================
As I said to Fever, it is really time for EVERYONE in here, on both sides, to admit they know nothing about Senga. The number of reports on him are not a lot. The one report I read, from a guy in Japan, is that he is a good #3/low #2 type. Good FB, with weak location, offset by three other usable pitches. And he has injury concerns.
It’ll be a whole lot better if we stop blaming Bloom for MAYBE not signing a guy that we know nothing about, and have no idea what his price range will be.
Oh, I don’t pretend to know anything about Senga. But all I’ve seen from bloom is the unwillingness to outbid other teams for good players.
The one thing I will say about Bloom is that he hasn’t hurt us much long term, only short term. His deals may not have paid off bit we are t tied to big contracts. Story is the one exception, but correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t think we paid that much for him compared to other big deals.
Dewey – Hitting Henry’s pocketbook is an interesting phrase. When a team makes over $300MM and fans don’t show up in droves like they used to or there are less NESN sponsors, how quickly will the $300MM disappear?
My belief is that Boston like the Chicago Cubs doesn’t need fans in their seats nor great NESN ratings to make plenty of money so Henry might not buy his kid a Yacht this year but he’ll still get a cooler speedboat than anything you or I might buy.
Henry was COVID proof and he’s proven to be Bloom proof. The money keeps flowing in not out with the Red Sox. There is no financial need driving any Red Sox changes except to buy other Sports entities elsewhere.
Clearly keeping Bloom is a “solid” to a friend not a practical business decision. Once the debt is paid Bloom will be gone and Boston can go back to winning by spending CAP money on quality players like in the good old days.
Samuel – Great comments about player development lacking. Bloom wrote a book outlining how to do it. It seems like a typical big business deal where one top guy takes credit for some smart work done by his team. That explains the TB success continuing after Bloom arrived in Boston and no observable success by Bloom at fixing the development process.
Money is discussed by Boston fans to a lesser degree than Yankee fans because Boston has only been a huge spender in the last 5 years. Prior to that they spend bigger than most but nothing close to the Yankees. If not for the current owners, Boston fans wouldn’t focus on money as much as you have correctly pointed out.
Your points on quality acquisitions is excellent. Boston has not made a quality acquisition under Bloom. It’s not the amount of money it’s the quality of the spending that should matter. Spending big bucks on a perpetual star who is destined for the HOF is not a bad contract like so many suggest on this site. Spending lots of small money to have depth is also a ridiculous concept as Bloom has proven.
Bloom discussed a Cost/Benefit analysis that was supposed to be the basis of his success in TB but that was theory he got from his staff not actual practice he understood. He traded away Mookie who was one of the highest bang for the buck players in baseball to get 3 bad bang for the buck players who were to be a big part of the future but haven’t turned out to be.. Poor evaluation by Bloom!! Mookie’s high value to cost ratio should have been apparent to Bloom but it wasn’t or he was forced to move him. If he was forced then he should have sought out comparable payback for dollars spent. Verdugo was cheap as a controlled player who performed at a league average rate. Is that a good deal? No. Is it a bad deal? No. It’s a huge step down from Mookie’s value that hasn’t been replaced.
Samuel, you are one of only a few people who don’t think of the money as if it was your own checkbook and talent as if the price indicates the value.
How much should a team pay for a player that is averaging 134 OPS+? The answer is simple. What ever the market dictates since there are very few players in baseball who average a 134 OPS+ so they are a scare resource but worth it. With over $230MM in available payroll each year Boston should be looking at the FA class and asking who has the greatest value to cost ratio of the potential acquisitions. They should also assess their needs by position and define a long term strategy by position so they can acquire their target players and find appropriate reserves based on remaining money.
With the current commitments so low this is the time to build the future with high value to cost big price players. Mayer, York and others are to be the salary relief in a couple of years so plan accordingly at the positions where no quality value to cost ratios exist. 3B and the corner outfield need to be first on the list from a hitting perspective. Devers as a DH needs to be procured for the right price or dealt to fill holes. Story can fill in 2B until Yorke arrives (if he does turn out to be a star) and Casas/Dalbec can start 2023 as the cheap 1B solution freeing up money for the 3 key positions of 3B/LF/RF.
Bloom needs to start dividing expected OPS+ by cost per year and finding the biggest bang for the buck players and forget about CAP until he starts getting close to it with at least 6 super star players like the old days. 3 expensive hitters and 3 expensive pitchers all with great cost/benefit numbers. That’s why Verlander and deGrom are not out of the question for short term deals at high prices.
If Boston exceeds the cap the returns will still be huge and if a post season run happens they will be even greater. Don’t spend to spend, spend the money using a cost/benefit approach that produces success. A guy like Schwarber only makes sense as a DH just like Devers. A kid like Hayes who plays 3B for Pittsburgh plays defense in a way that will shave the ERA and WHIP of the club compared to Devers remaining at 3B. Bang for the buck not just big dollars.
Given the Brewers payroll constraints, the Sox ought to be putting a ton of energy into landing one of their righty starters. I don’t think Boston’s problem is quantity, it’s that they lag most other contenders on number of truly impact arms. It seemed like only four or five of their pitchers would have made the postseason roster (for anything beyond mop up duty) for either World Series team. I’ll settle for multiple second/third tier arms, but that keeps them on the path of needing a lot to go right to get into postseason play.
They have the pieces to do so. Not like it’ll be a bargain but Mayer can get ya pretty much anyone who’s available. I don’t think that’s Boston’s plan though.
They are thin in upper minors outfield but should consider cashing in Rafaela if they can get a legit front of rotation arm out of a package including him.
Trade Mookie, err, I mean Cedanne for a pitcher? It would be a big mistake. Red Sox have plenty of pitching, just have to add a Vet or 2 to lead the group.
What plenty of pitching are you talking about?
We tend to undervalue prospects before they have a breakout statistical year, and then overreact immediately after the breakout statistical year. Look, I saw Rafaela steal a home run during a Chris Sale rehab start in Portland, and it was immediately obvious that the player is a special defender. He’s also 5’8” and eight months ago, was a versatile A ball defender that no one expected to hit. I have similarly watched this fan base go from regarding BA top 100 prospect Jarren Duran as untouchable to worthless in one year – actually, more like five months if you consider how good he looked this June in the big leagues. It takes value to get value, and if you’re sitting on all of your prospects in most situations, you’re going to have a very hard time ending up with enough impact talent to win three or four postseason series. Rafaela’s a really nice player. There are all sorts of empirical examples where trade and extend a #1/#2 starter turns out to be an optimal use of farm capital. Wouldn’t you love to be able to sign Luis Castillo for 5 / 108 this offseason? What a steal
Big difference. Any and everyone should have seen Duran may be able to hit (the jury is still out) but he will NEVER be a good outfielder. He doesn’t adjust well to the ball and has the worst arm since Mickey Rivers.
wanzey – Excellent post! Yes it’s true, prior successful Sox teams always had at least a couple stud starting pitchers to win the big games and a stud closer.
2018 – Sale, Price, Kimbrel
2013 – Lester, Lackey, Koji
2007 – Beckett, Schilling, Papelbon
2004 – Pedro, Schilling, Foulke
Other than Lester and Papelbon, all of those pitchers were either free agent signings or trades.
I would add D Lowe to the 2004 team, also. And stud lock down setup men on most of those teams too!
DBH – You’re right, Joe Kelly was by far the best reliever in the 2018 postseason.
Timlin 2004 was probably one of out best setup guys in years
DBH – AMEN Probably one of the most forgotten guys on that squad.
DBH – Yes he was good in 2004, but Tito’s overuse of him in the 2008 ALCS is what cost the Sox another WS appearance that year.
Absolutely. And in 18, Kelly picked the perfect time to produce given his stuff. Barnes too.
Who else was there to use in 08? I can’t recallm
dewey – Tito made two grave mistakes in Game 2.
He left Beckett in to give up 8 runs in just 4 1/3 innings
And he pulled Masterson way too quick.
Wakefield wasn’t scheduled to start until 3 days later, he should have been brought in.
Timlin was awful all year, 5.66 ERA and 1.622 WHIP during the regular season. He didn’t pitch in the ALDS and never should have been on the ALCS roster. Then 5 walks and 2 hits in 2 2/3 innings during the ALCS.
Needless to say, Timlin retired right after that 2008 ALCS implosion.
How do you remember all those esoteric details from ages past Fever??? I’m in awe. You must have a photographic memory or you go back and study these games in your freetime. With respect.
Thanks Fever. I just don’t remember. Because the team lost, my mind only sees Price coming out of the pen…
lol. good chuckle for the early a.m.
thanks!
He left Beckett in to give up 8 runs in just 4 1/3 innings
=================================
Tito made so few mistakes that it is possible to remember all of them, but the Beckett mistake astounded me. When he went to the mound, I felt 100% certain he was pulling him.
Longoria had already gotten to him for a HR and a double, and he was already up in the pitch count. There was still about only a 50/50 chance we’d win, but leaving him in was Little-esque.
I like targeting the Brewers but it will be costly. Using the model on baseballtradevalues.com, the following are fair trades.
Burnes for Mayer, Rafaela and Yorke.
Peralta for Mayer and Yorke
Woodruff for Bello and Wikelman Gonzalez.
Now their model doesn’t take into account whether or not Milwaukee actually wants those deals.
Normally I don’t love some of their valuations but that first package for burnes is realistic. Problem is along the lines of what you said, I thought I heard Milwaukee would want someone MLB ready back in any deal.
Kluber is another buy low, get 4 or 5 innings of nearly useless pitching while the relievers get worn out pitching 5 times a week. Then we can whine about the bullpen again. How about spending money on people we know are good like Bogoerts, Devers, Vazquez, Renfro, Wacha, at least one good starter. Go get Abreau as a DH and part time first baseman. Trade some of the might be good someday minor leaguers.
To be fair, Wacha was another “buy low” guy that turned into an impact arm. Trying to hit the lottery on most of our signings seems to be the new (cheap) strategy.
And yet we re letting one of Bloom’s few decent signings walk after he had a good season in Wacha
Randy – No different than pushing Renfroe out the door.
With Wacha it’s just another case of not wanting to pay more for highly sought after players.
I don’t know Abreu. He didn’t for power in 2022, he hit for average. He also failed to drive in 100 runs for the first time in I don’t know how many years. If the Red Sox can deal with an average just over .300 and not a lot of power anymore, then he could probably be had for a reasonable contact. Oh, and, he doesn’t have a Fenway Park swing.
Bloom has simply taken his Tampa model of buying cheap “projects’ to Boston. None of those pitchers maybe Senga are more than #5 type SP.. Sox have loads of $$ coming off the books this year yet Bloom continues to shop in the bargain bins for rehab/washed up players on the cheap while lowballing our own homegrown stars like XB and Devers. And to make things even worse his “great” signing of James Paxton put the Sox over the cap which means they only get a comp pick after the 4th rd when XB leaves and also they lose a 2nd and 5th rd pick if they sign top FA. Way to go Chaim–you are brilliant. Take your act back to Tampa PLEASE!!
All the big name free agent pitchers these year are extremely risky – either 40+ years old or just always injured. Don’t we already have enough injured ace caliber pitchers on this team?
Ketch – I agree on Verlander and deGrom, and to a lesser extent Rodon. Those are the types of pitchers you acquire when you are in GFIN mode which the Red Sox are definitely not.
But there is NO EXCUSE if they don’t land Senga.
Fever Pitch Guy;
Talk about entitlement…..
The man has more than a half-dozen of the best and well heeled teams going after him, and he MUST go to the Red Sox? Why? Has he no say in the decision? Money being equal, why would he want to play for fans like the ones posting here? i.e. He BETTER win the next game…OR ELSE!
LOL
But there is NO EXCUSE if they don’t land Senga.
====================================
I doubt you (or anyone in here) know enough about Senga to say he is a Must-Sign..
2-There is no player in the world that must be signed, without knowing his price tag. And this is doubly true of players with no MLB stats upon which to rely.
If the Cubs paid $180M/6, are you saying that is NO EXCUSE for not signing him?
Samuel – Because the Red Sox are a big market team with a desperate need for pitching, they have a large amount of financial resources, they are way under the luxury tax threshold, and this is a rare opportunity to acquire a top talent at a reasonable price without having to trade prospects.
So it has nothing to do with “entitlement” and everything to do with logic.
In case you haven’t noticed, the Red Sox haven’t signed an in-demand elite free agent pitcher since David Price back in 2015. It’s their freakin’ turn to finally open their wallet, as Charlie Harper would say.
Joe – He will be only 30, he has no history of injuries, he has a career 2.42 ERA and 1.096 WHIP, and he’s coming off a 1.89 ERA season.
MLBTR projects his contract to be 5 years @ $15M per which is a steal even if he turns out to be just a #2 starter.
I’m not going to engage in silly projections of $180M contracts, especially from someone who actually thought Bloom would spend $135M on deGrom and $100M on Diaz. LOL!
Joe – He will be only 30, he has no history of injuries,
==================================
This is why I say it is useless to conjecture on guys we know nothing about.
“Perhaps more concerning is Senga’s extensive injury history. While he hasn’t had a severe arm injury since he missed a year with shoulder problems early in his career, every season has been riddled with minor issues that knock him out for a few starts at a time. This season he missed several starts with elbow soreness and about a month with COVID. The year before, he twisted his ankle fielding a ball and missed three months. That list goes on and on, and once you go back more than a couple years it also extends to scarier places like his occasionally-troublesome right shoulder. Senga has a high-effort short-armed delivery and a relatively slight frame for a starter at 6-foot, 178 pounds, and that long injury history raises concerns about how he’d transition from starting once per week to once every five to six days. Senga has only exceeded 150 innings in a season twice, and only once since 2017. ”
Credit dodgersdigest.com/
Randy: I’m pretty sure that if Bloom really wants to sign someone, the last thing he will do is tell a reporter.
I’m not as sold on Abreu as many here. The Sox already have 3 1B on the roster and with the DH two can be in the lineup on any given day. I’m ok with bringing Renfroe back but i think more likely Bloom will go after Wil Myers since he’s spent the last two offseasons trying to trade for him and now all he’ll cost is money
Still blows my mind we went over the tax by 1 m for Hosmer and Pham. That stupidity aside, I’m expecting nothing more than Sale, Eovaldi, Whitlock, Pivetta and Paxton to be our rotation. Very high risk-high reward, depth will be pivotal. Lots of question marks on this team, let’s hope Bloom works some magic like he did in 2021.
NYSF- Don’t forget that brilliant move of trading Renfroe in order to get JBJ’s useless bat back.
Dear Red Sox,
Please sign pitchers who can stay healthy for a whole season and have something left in the tank for the postseason. Thank you,
Fan getting ready for his 60th season.
P.S. A reliable closer would be nice, too.
Why do we need a closer? Sox only blew 28 of 39 see opportunities last year
Houck was 8 for 9 in save chances. If his back is healthy, he should close.
I like Houck’s makeup and I agree on giving him a shot at closing, maybe more than in the rotation. He was a good starter for awhile, though.
Houck and Whitlock need to be in the bullpen. If Barnes builds off of his solid finish from last season the Sox will be in much, much better shape going into the 9th inning than they were at the beginning of last season
Schreiber was unhittable in the 9th as well, but I would still go after someone like Rogers to push everyone back an inning. Especially if they intend on making Whitlock a starter.
Brayan Bello will also be in the rotation.
Brian Mata will be pitching in the majors next year too. The Sox are really high on Bello and they also think highly of Mata too. If they can cover 2 rotation spots will good rookies then the Sox look much better already. Spend money on the offense & bullpen, while adding 1-2 back end depth starters. Once again, the success of their season will hinge on the health of Chris Sale. Hopefully he’ll finally be healthy enough to give them 25 starts.
Good points, Dorothy!
Garrett Whitlock (Majors)
Kutter Crawford (Majors)
Brayan Bello (Majors)
Josh Winckowski (Majors)
Connor Seabold (Majors)
Bryan Mata (AAA)
Thad Ward (AA)
Chris Sale (Majors)
All of these pitchers are capable of helping. Each one is AA or higher, meaning they could be in the majors by mid-season. Red Sox need 1 or 2 starters tops and they have very good SP staff.
I forgot:
Brandon Walters (AAA)
Chris Murphy (AAA)
I forgot:
Chris Murphy (AAA)
Brandon Walters (AAA)
Agreed, except for the fact that the Red Sox inexcusably left Thad Ward unprotected in the upcoming Rule V draft. There’s no question he will be claimed as he is ready to pitch in the majors now. Also, I don’t think Seabold is a legitimate MLB pitcher, even out of the bullpen. He looks really good in AAA but major league hitters will continue to hammer his stuff.
I’m not sold on Winckowski, Seabold, or Crawford. Hopefully, one or more could have success in the bullpen.
Ward probably will be taken, but “no question”. Lets let it happen first.
Also, if I were ranking this group, for helpfulness in 2023, Ward would finish in last:
Bello
Whitlock
Crawford
Murphy
Mata
Sale
Seabold
Winckowski
Ward
Ward’s value to 2023 season, considering injury and still being at AA, is minimal at best. It sucks we’ll probably lose him, but he’s not leaving a hole at the position.
Wink and Seabold are the bottom of the barrel, they are depth pieces. Every team has a couple of 5th starters
@Dorothy/ They are hoping that he’ll sneak by. He’s a contact pitcher. More often than not, these guys are a risk for an entire season at the ML level. Not to say the A’s or Nats won’t bite.
Someone should tell Chaim Bloom that he has the Red Sox budget now and not the Rays anymore. The Red Sox have been spending like they are a frugal franchise, and they are avoiding extending their premier players – Betts, Bogaerts, Devers
I don’t get it. They don’t even really have a core to build around anymore.
And yet the article here clearly states that the Sox were over the CBT limit in 2022. Not sure how people can continue to think it’s credible to complain about the team being cheap when they were one of the top spending teams.
The Red Sox have been spending like they are a frugal franchise, ….I don’t get it.
===========================
I often wonder what fans of other teams think when they hear RS fans complain that the RS are frugal.
Red Sox will sign Heaney, then his arm will fall off or he will fall off a bike.
Chasing-off homegrown players like Betts, Devers, and Bogaerts in the hopes of acquiring prospects that one day turn into players like Betts, Devers, and Bogaerts. Bloom is out of his depth.
Do we know if Bloom is driving this approach or John Henry? If John Henry won’t approve long, high AAV contracts, Bloom will not pursue them.
Suit … both are culpable. Even in Bloom’s low dollar dealings, his supposed area of expertise, Bloom is demonstrating lacklustre returns.
Sox are on the wrong path. Interesting point you raised, no less.
Verdugo expected to be traded to Guardians with Myles Straw and Zach Plesac headed to Sox in a two for one deal
That won’t happen because CLE needs righty run producers at 1B/DH and corner OF. Even if Verdugo batted right, I still wouldn’t see it happening.
I’d be shocked if that happened. Verdugo isn’t as cheap as he used to be.
Hard as it is to believe that might actually be an overpay for the Guardians
The Guardians are deep in LH hitting OF’s – not just in the majors, a few coming up from the high minors.
In the prediction contest I have Boston signing Senga and Heaney (along with Trea Turner and Michael Brantley). Let’s see if they end up with any one of them. The Sox need to be aggressive if they want to compete in the AL East.
I had the Sox diving Correa, Eovaldi, Rogers and Clevinger.
I actually had Rogers as well, just overlooked on my list; but noticed it after I posted. I wrote my picks down as I know I won’t remember them all. I think we agree that the Sox need more than a couple of tweeks to be in the hunt…
I like Clevinger being signed by Boston too. He’s a perfect Chaim Bloom acquisition. It would be a short term deal; perhaps 2/24 with an opt out after year 1. Clevinger needs to rebuild his value so this would make sense for both sides.
Brantley, Senga, and Heaney can all be signed for less than one season of Trea Turner so signing all 4 are not likely. I don’t see the Sox signing any other of the big 4 SS but Bogaerts and if they come up short there than a Jose Iglesias/Elvis Andrus type stop gap
Sign Deavers and Correa at ss! Then what ever is left use on pitching! Most of the pitching in this market is suspect! Bogy is gone!
The Red Sox should have the ability to sign Bogaerts, Turner, Verlander and DeGrom, but for whatever reason they think they are a small market team.
They went over the cap last year lol
only because of both the contracts left by DD snd also the IDIOTIC James Paxton signing.
So Bloom is supposed to ignore the luxury tax threshold because not all the contracts are his?
They went over the cap last year lol
==========================
A lot of RS fans are the dumbest in baseball. I’d bet that approximately 100% of all Yankee, Dodger, and Met fans know there teams are over the cap.
I think about half our fans think we are a small market team.
You really think the RS are going to sign $135M/year for 4 players?
Boston is gonna pose like they are trying to compete then tear this team down through the season, finish last in east again, and rebuild through draft and international signings. Save their loot and then look to strike 2/3 years down the line.
Maybe or it might look like that if they avoid long, expensive free agent contracts. I think John Henry has seen too many of those go badly.
Boston Will Do A Complete Rebuild This Off-Season,Because Of Chaim Bloom.
Maybe that’s been the plan all along.
Chaim Bloom Wants To Make Boston A Bad Team,On Purpose.
jackjohnson: Youre not far off. Bloom’s biggest trouble in building a powerhouse, so far, was getting to the ALCS. It was enjoyable, but his strategy was to suck for 3-4 years, thereafter, start pushing in the playoffs. Between ALCS and pandemic, that has been slowed down by more than a year.
Good news is the Sox are currently working on being a ‘built from the ground-up contender’. ETA 2024.
jackjohnson52183l
Yes…..
When Mr. Bloom’s high school counselor asked him what he wanted to do with his life, that’s exactly what he said.
How did you find out?
Might be. Teams are bad on purpose to get high draft picks and more international signing money.
suit – If the plan all along was a complete rebuild, shouldn’t they have done that 3 years ago after the 2019 debacle?
And then why dump all that money on Story?
I think they (mostly Henry and Bloom) keep changing their plans, in part due to changing revenue streams. Revenue often dictates plans, just like other teams will often gear up for big spending right after huge new TV contracts kick in.
Fever Pitch Guy;
There is nothing showing me that the Sox aren’t in a rebuild and have been for years now.
There are signs that it’s not going well.
Samuel – The fact they didn’t trade Xander, Devers, JD, Hernandez or Eovaldi prior to the 2022 season shows they were not in a rebuild.
When you intend to extend a player, you lock them up at least 2 years before free agency. If not, you trade them at least 2 years before free agency. That’s what the Nats did with Soto, that’s what the ChiSox did with Sale, etc etc.
It’s just bad business to lowball your player and let him hit free agency, because then you are forced to do one of two things: 1) Overpay to keep him or 2) Let him walk for nothing.
Fever: JackJohnson was saying he sees a full rebuild coming. It wouldn’t surprise me if it did, but I don’t know. Dumping money on Story was probably John Henry wanting a “big signing” to satisfy whining fans and media or Bloom thinking he would replace Xander at less year and money. It looks like bad contract and I think it may make them hesitant to make big signings this year. Let’s see what happens.
Samuel: In my opinion, the rebuild of the farm system is going OK. Fangraphs had their average prospect value at no. 17 the last I looked which feels about right – middle of the pack. They still have a ways to go to be a top farm system. Dombrowski left them with the lowest ranked farm system per some. So, to move from the bottom to middle of lack in three years is pretty good.
Suit- a lot of that improvement in the rankings is due to guys that DD drafted coming into their own and being close to MLB ready. Sure, bloom has added to it but, so far, they’ve been mostly middling, one dimensional prospects.
Vermont: Looking at soxprospects.com, 5 of the top 10 prospects were acquired by Bloom. I think Bloom is doing pretty well.
On mlb.com, 6 of their top 10 prospects were acquired by Bloom.
Samuel and Fever – Semantics. The spiraling downward simulates a rebuild from a huge depletion of talent perspective and yet not dumping talent going into year 3 for Bloom makes perfect sense when it comes to justifying another year of employment. If he dumps and they fail it’s and easy exit but if they stay and don’t perform well enough to win, it’s not so much on him as it is the players and Cora.
Dramatic fall in talent means a need for a dramatic growth in talent thus the word rebuild is fair. Personally, I call it “Fixing the the Red Sox after they pulled a Bloom”. Pulling a Bloom is defined as a continuous series of mistakes.
AITSTYW – Far from the truth. The facts show that it’s worse off now and it’s documented by a pro Red Sox/Bloom reporter.
The growth in the ranking is due primarily to one player who got drafted with the fourth pick in the draft thanks to a god awful 2020. That’s not how to build a farm system. Usually the farm system is considered improved if it provides more value to the MLB team. That hasn’t happened with Bloom acquired players. The recent successful graduates are from Dombrowski the same guy you said ruined the farm system. See why that doesn’t ring true?
I would rather recall the entire 2004 team and watch them play in their 50 and 60 than watch the team that Bloom is fielding.
I had high hopes for Bloom when he signed. I thought he sigh really good players, even for a mil over market and avoid great players beginning their downward spiral to albatross contracts.
I know a lot of his decisions were based on Henry breathing down his back about payroll, but blowing the tax threshold for the signings of Pham, or trading for JBJ just can not be explained logically.
Bloom is obviously out of his depth here. He needs to go. And I am wondering if maybe it isn’t time for Henry to sell.
Just my humble opinion
Bloom’s worst decision last season was trading Renfroe for JBJ. Sure he got 2 prospects back but neither are difference makers. Maybe Binelas turns out to be a good power hitter but he’ll always struggle to hit for average and strike out too much. Also, Bloom is still trying to defend this deal by adding Hamilton to their 40 man roster and for some reason, leaving Thad Ward unprotected. No question that Thad Ward will be selected in the Rule V draft, most likely in the first round as he projects to be a solid #4 or #5 starter. Hamilton, meanwhile, projects to be a utility IF at best; if not just a pinch runner due to his speed. I don’t get what Bloom is doing here. Leaving Ward unprotected is unforgivable if you ask me.
As usual, I absolutely agree with you, DM!
dotty – I have kept largely quiet on the JBJ trade because we really can’t pass judgement until we see how the prospects pan out.
But no question that trade contributed to being over the threshold, shame on Bloom for allowing that to happen.
Fever: I agree. Need to see how they turn out.
But no question that trade contributed to being over the threshold,
==============================
So the issue is that we received a player good enough to protect?
“but neither are difference makers”
To flip that, Renfroe would have been the ‘difference maker’? No way to save that team with all those injuries. He didn’t make much of a difference for Brewers either.
In fact:
Brewers in 2021 without Renfroe 95-67 (playoffs)
Brewers in 2022 with Renfroe 86-76 (no playoffs)
It was a trade for the future. Renfroe is on his last season on this contract, before he hits FA. Neither of the players traded for, have had a single day in the majors. Way too early to decide this one.
Rodon and Bassitt should absolutely be serious targets. Hill sucks, let him walk. Eovaldi can’t stay healthy, let him walk too. Senga we should probably avoid just bc of Dice K. Lol
Here’s what the Red Sox should do about their pitching…….
Give Matt Blake $5m a year to be their pitching coach before the Yankees resign him.
It’ll be a bargain – and their ROI will skyrocket.
Trea Turner is seriously underrated & would produce Tier One production for the Sawx. Dude checks all the boxes as a integral piece for any team that expects to consistently compete at a high level.
I don’t agree that he is underrated but I do agree that he checks all the boxes.
Franklin- “as an integral piece for any team that expects to consistently compete at a high level.”
That era in Boston is over…
I think I’m going to spread out my ticket & merchandise spending across teams who give a dam. This garbage did nothing in 2021 as in 13 the team did not so much win the series as the other team lose it… I don’t even think we hit 200 in that playoffs one of the luckiest rings in history. No Judge with an obvious need in HRs & OF I can’t support this trash effort by John Henry’s cheap approach…he is the cheapskate…time to empty Fenway! And put 2023 where it’s headed! The Trash Bin of also rans.
Merchandise spending? Funny.
I’ve been a Red Sox fan for 60 years and I’ve never bought anything except a YAZ poster when I was about 12 to cover the wall in my bedroom for the next six years.
Somehow, I have shirts, hats, socks, gloves, coffee mugs, a giant wide angle framed photo of Fenway, a ticket stub from Yaz’s penultimate game, a garden gnome and a cabbage patch baby, and more stuff I can’t think of right now.
You can’t make this stuff up.
But do you have a life?
baseballteam:
His sounds better than yours, a ‘Troll’s Life’.
@baseballteam, yes, all of these things were gifts. I just think it’s amusing that someone gave me a cabbage patch doll waving a Red Sox banner, It’s in the box about 3 feet above my head. makes me smile.
Nothing can dull the shine that was “The impossible dream” . I watched the World Series in 7th grade when our english teacher brought in a 12″ b+w TV. What a great guy he was. In 89, I was fortunate to be at Yaz’s number retirement game. I still have a pristine commemorative folder that is dear to me.
hayzee – Me too! I was at both of Yaz’s last games, 3B grandstand. And I have received a ton of Red Sox stuff as gifts throughout the year, so I hardly ever buy much. I also have the wide angle of Fenway.
Didn’t you get the poster they gave out during the final Yaz weekend?
Fever, full disclosure, a friend gave me the ticket stub. I live in NJ and didn’t have the ability to easily get to Boston. Good for you being there!!!
So, my childhood friend, a lifelong Yankee fan, brought his son to Yankee Stadium and Fenway Park for Papi’s final games as a graduation present. Somehow his son wound up being a Red Sox fan.
That was cool.
Ah yes, the 2013 Red Sox. Let’s recall all the pitchers they beat. David Price, Matt Moore, Max Scherzer, Justin Verlander, Anibal Sanchez, Adam Wainwright, Michael Wacha.
suit – I love that 2013 team almost as much as the 2004 team. It was right out of the Major League movie, so many players that didn’t have impressive stats like WAR and whatnot but they were so clutch and never let pressure get to them. The marathon aspect made it that much sweeter.
Three guys really carried the team in the postseason … Koji, Lester and Ortiz.
Koji was insanely good and his enthusiasm was highly memorable.
Yeah. That was a great team with clutch pitching from the bullpen and clutch hitting from Napoli, Victorino, Gomes and of course Ortiz.
The list of free agent pitchers they may go after is pretty unimaginative and boring. The best one is probably Senga, and he will probably sign on the West Coast or with one of the New York teams as all Japanese players do.
stroh;
That’s why I wrote that they should get a top-flite pitching coach.
None of their pitchers are showing anything close to the top of their ability. They should get the best out of the pitchers they have under contract.
You’re correct – discounting Verlander and Rodon there is no F/A pitcher that’s going to come in to play for a club that will be a turnkey TOR guy….and I wouldn’t sign Rodon to anything over 2 years with a club option….am sure he and Boras would laugh at that….nor would I sign Verlander to 3-plus years….he’s older then Max and some team is going to get stuck with their payroll in disarray when he suddenly contacts Schurzer disease.
It goes way beyond a pitching coach. This organization as a very poor record of drafting and developing pitching. It’s been going on for at least 15 years and through many different GMs,
yewed- 15 years?!? It’s been going on for at least 50 years! lol
Fair enough. Should have said it’s been 15 years since their last quality home grown pitchers.
They’re planning on 24. Draft and develop. Get used to it.
Bobby smac9;
I agree.
But the work they’ve done with pitchers thus far is pretty bad. They need to show major progress with some in 2023.
Samuel… agree. however, I believe the leash will be at least partially through 24 for Bloom. This is a long term project. It won’t be turned around quickly. As long as the revenue keeps coming in, He will have a job. The idea of course being a competitive club without having to tear it down every few years.
Yeah what P in their right mind would want to play for the Red Sox in 2023… Its Devers and 25 scrubs
Henry – I wouldn’t count on Devers just yet. If he doesn’t sign an extension over the next couple months, he’s likely traded before April.
Gotta see how this plays out before I call Bloom out
Totally agree, pwndroia.
He was playing the hand he was dealt up until now. Next season will be the first real season of “his” team and It will take more than 1 season to get there.
What Bloom is trying to accomplish takes time. People compare his approach to Tampa but that approach is not all bad. Every season people are amazed at what they accomplish but their approach should be entirely dismissed? Makes no sense.
Sure it’s a different market and is being treated as such by money spent. . Rays are one of the few successful teams that had more injuries than the Sox last season. Why? Their minor league system was good enough to get them there.
Nothing wrong with trying to become a hybrid version of the 2. Have a self sustaining minor league system and still spend smart money. The main problem is that it takes time to accomplish this and fans don’t like to wait.
yewed- the main problem is is that they had a homegrown all-star core in place to continue to build around. Their contention window was wide open and Henry decided to slam it shut and go in a completely different direction. They wasted hundreds of millions of dollars and years of prime talent to do this. They should have just blown the whole thing up after they hired bloom, it would have been less painful in the long run. bloom obviously doesn’t know how to build a winner on the fly while trying to build up the farm.
It is universally known their farm system was a mess and the team was over the cap for 3 consecutive deals (3yrs over cap maxes penalites), when DD left. A rebuild was necessary.
Steinbrenner Cashman Boone Yankees
FIRST PLACE
Henry, Kennedy, BOH, Bloome, Cora, RedSox
LAST PLACE!
& This IS Redsox REALITY!
guru – Props for being the first one to also call out O’Halloran and Kennedy, although GM is just a stripped down shell position now.
Don’t forget Raquel Ferreira too, can’t leave her out just because she’s a woman. LOL
You guys are worried about Steinbrenner Cashman Boone Yankees?
You might want cast an eye at Peter Angelos, Elias/Mejdal, Hyde, Orioles.
Those people are miles ahead of both organizations
Samuel don’t forget Jerry Dipoto and the Mariners brain trust when it comes to developing pitchers and finding discarded pieces off the waiver wire like Sewald and tweaking their release point or pitch grip to make them formidable weapons. You always poop all over the Mariners, Samuel.
This is becoming a joke, honestly. The Red Sox are not the Rays. Fire Bloom. Dombrowski gets the last laugh here.
I mean I don’t know what everyone expected here. The only guys I’m mildly surprised they aren’t going after is Bassitt. They were never going to be serious contenders for DeGrom, Verlander, and Rodon. I don’t think any of those guys really wanted to to Boston unless they were overpaid. DeGrom scares me that guy is awesome but if I’m Bloom I don’t want to pay that guy 40-45 million per to spend a ton of time on the DL. Verlander isn’t coming to Boston unless Boston overpays which they won’t. My guess on Bassitt they don’t feel he’s worth the draft picks but he’s exactly what they need a solid very durable pitcher who takes the ball every fifth day and eats innings and pitches well.
If they aren’t going to go after Verlander or Bassitt then they are going to need to go out and sign 4 or 5 pitchers this off-season and hope they hold up. If they are going that route would like to see them sign Thor. He looked pretty decent and he will be one year from his TJ surgery it wouldn’t be unprecedented for his velocity to tick back up and for him to out pitch his contract.
The fate of the Red Sox will once again come down to injuries and timing of injuries. I’m not saying this was the most talented team last year but injuries was the biggest difference between 2021 Red Sox and 2022 Red Sox that and the I’ll fated trade of Renfroe.
This team has a very high Delta things go relatively well Sale is finally Sale again and Paxton pitches for a contract the pitching stays healthy the offensive power comes back and the team is a threat. If the injuries return then another last place finish and Bloom being dismissed is a real possibility.
I’m not against Corey Kluber but his durability isn’t the same anymore.
pwndroia – I’ll take Kluber’s 31 starts and 164 IP over Hill’s 26 starts and 124 IP every time.
@ Fever Pitch Guy
Agreed 100%
Kluber’s durability is definitely a concern over the grind of a full season.
Al – I don’t disagree, but for the right price I’d still take a half season of Kluber over Hill.
Bloom is the guy who shows up at the buffet table when everyone else got their food an hour before. He shows up when the help is putting everything away or throwing it out looking for bargains and throwaways. I’ll believe the Red Sox have money to spend supposedly by Ken Rosenthal when I see it. Is Henry telling him to do this or did he sell a bill of goods to Henry. He has sandwiched two bad years around a very lucky year when he could have done better with a better relief pitcher in 2021. I don’t have too much confidence in Bargain Basement Bloom and Boggarts should have been signed already.
AL34;
Bloom knew more about baseball 10 years ago than you’ll ever know…and he’s learned far more since.
I’m older than you think I am and have been a a Red Sox fan since the 1970s. I would hope he knows more than I do.
Bloom is a small market GM with a low budget but Boston is not a small market team. We draw fans, Tampa Bay does not. He also rode on Andrew Friedman’s (now with LA Dodgers) shirttails inWe were paying several players a lot of money which got the payroll up there , Eovaldi, Sale, JD Martinez, JBJ and Boggarts. The smarter move would have been to keep Schwarber and use him to replace JD Martinez as the DH when he reached free agency. Now you do not have a DH. I do not think Hosmer is that good even though he is a freebie (with San Diego paying). I kind of question his heart where he immediately went on the DL for almost 2 months. I hope Bloom can fix this but I seriously think that this is his last year to fix this and he has quite an uphill battle to complete it.
Samuel – Please explain the basis of your evaluation of Bloom. Do you have inside knowledge? Are you talking about contracts and infrastructure and things not related to fielding a roster or do you believe he is a brilliant roster builder who has simply failed?
What percentage of that incredible knowledge that Bloom has actually paid a benefit to the last place Boston Red Sox? See, I get that nobody should get to a position like his without a great background in baseball but it’s the application of that knowledge that has not been executed in Boston and frankly based on how much better TB has been since he arrived I’m thinking that knowledge you are promoting within Bloom is actually still sitting in TB making great decisions.
Please clarify why you believe he’s so knowledgeable other than the obvious he must be to have that job argument.
Al here’s the reality.
2020 should be completely discounted. It was a 60 game season if you don’t start fast you are done unfortunately they didn’t but I don’t hold that season against Bloom. Sale went and Eddie went down after the free agents had mostly signed numerous other things went wrong but you know 60 game season to judge anyone on that particular season is well, ignorant.
Then came 2021 most things went very well for this team health wise and they made it to the post season. The team was fortunate with their health and a lot of other teams were not. The bottom line they were healthy .
Then came 2022 and the Red Sox were not healthy there was a time in the season for a month the Red Sox had 4 rookie starters. I really don’t care who you are you are not going to survive that. It wasn’t just the starters there were numerous other injuries and this team predictably tanked.
Now comes 2023 I’m sure there will be no DeGrom, Verlander or Rodon and it sounds like Bassitt isn’t in the cards either so there is definitely going to be an element of luck in regards to health that will have a lot to say how 2023 pans out. The Red Sox will have a lot of ifs especially pitching if that comes together then this team will compete again probably make the playoffs if injuries strike again they will probably finish in last and Bloom will be replaced. That’s the reality of the matter let’s just see what happens. Bloom is on the clock let’s see how this all turns out.
Bruin – I can see Click possibly joining the Sox before the end of 2023.
So in other words, if we’re REALLY lucky we’ll go from bad to solidly mediocre. Yaaay! We’re in for yet another crappy season
I have faith!
-TB is going through a massive roster overhaul this off season.
-The Yanks are getting old
-Toranto wont be afford all their home-grown talent
In the next season or 2, you will see the dying breeds while Baltimore & Sox rise.
This Red Sox team is probably the toughest to make out on the direction they wanna go in.
I don’t see how this owner, Mr.Henry, can even show his face on the streets of Boston. He ought to be ashamed of himself, allowing one of the most storied, historically legendary, top flight sports franchises EVER, to let it sink to this abysmal level. Unable/unwilling to extend THREE homegrown superstar players?!? To either not invest in, or neglect player development to such an extent where the once hyped-can’t miss prospects are on the verge of turning into borderline DFA candidates?!? To go over the payroll tax thresholds by spending so frivolously/haphazardly all for the spectacular result of securing a last place finish behind the Orioles in the AL East?!?
SMGDH!!!!!! Mr. Henry makes the owners of the Rockies and Royals look like the smartest businessmen on the planet. Mr. Henry makes me scratch my chin and wonder, if I were a Red Sox fan, would I prefer the owner of the Reds or the Pirates or the A’s to this incompetent clown??? Man that’s a hard decision. Sigh.
While I agree with your thoughts, at least the last places finishes will get us a top lottery draft pick for future talent we will never afford to keep.
I don’t see how this owner, Mr.Henry, can even show his face on the streets of Boston.
=================================
ROTFLMAO!
Are you serious?
Henry is by far, in a class by himself, the best owner the RS have ever had.
And it is also pretty likely he is the best current owner in baseball.
This was either sarcasm that I didn’t get, or arguably the dumbest statement I have heard in MLB-R.
===============================
Okay, I typed that, and I refuse to un-type it. But upon a re-read, I guess it fairly obvious that it was sarcasm.
If you think about it, Henry hasn’t shown his face much in the last year or so. He sends Sam Kennedy to absorb all the flak.
Henry has been a great owner, but that stuff drives me crazy. When we win, he is everywhere. When we lose, he is nowhere.
That’s because FSG has really grown and is now an international sports business. FSG now owns the Red Sox, Liverpool F.C,, Pittsburgh Penguins, Roush Racing, and the Salem Red Sox, not to mention real estate development in Boston. Liverpool is worth more than the Red Sox. That’s why Sam Kennedy is now the face of FSG in Boston.
The Red Sox should be in on Cody Bellinger…. 1 year deal…. has Hunter Renfroe written all over it…. Good Defense, lots of power and strike outs…. opportunity to get him cheap and see if he reverts back to form…. still young and a change of scenery is what may be needed.
IMHO, the Sox cannot afford any reclamation projects with the amount of holes to fill. There is a reason the Dodgers are moving on from him. Let him sign with the A’s or some team not planning on competing near term.
Cooper – Loved the comment. Great defense is all we’ve had in CF for a decade so if he hits it’s a bonus and the deal is only 1 year so if he doesn’t hit he’s gone before Mayer and Yorke show up. Just don’t assign Benintendi’s hitting coaches to him!!! Find a coach that preaches hit to all fields. Then sign Benny to play left again.