November 29: The Pirates have officially announced the deal.
November 25: The Pirates have agreed to a one-year deal with veteran first-baseman Carlos Santana pending a physical, according to Jeff Passan of ESPN. It’ll pay the Octagon client $6.725MM, per Jon Heyman of the New York Post. It’s the largest guarantee the Pirates have given to a free agent since inking Daniel Hudson to a two-year, $11MM deal before the 2017 season.
It’s an intriguing move for the Pirates as they look to slowly work their way back to contention after a lengthy rebuild. Santana is the third first-base/DH option they’ve acquired this off-season, following their trade for Ji-Man Choi and claim of Lewin Diaz.
Santana, 36, spent last year with the Royals and Mariners, slashing a joint .202/.316/.376 with 19 home runs over 506 plate appearances for a wRC+ of 102, a couple of ticks above league average. While the numbers certainly don’t leap off the page, Santana did post the lowest BABIP of his career and hasn’t seen much shift in his walk or strikeout rates. Santana could also be one of the biggest benefactors of the shift restrictions that’ll come into play next season, as no one faced a shift more often than he did (98.3% of the time).
It’ll be the fifth major league team Santana has suited up for. He debuted for Cleveland back in 2010, the first of eight seasons he’d initially spend with the franchise. Santana regularly posted 20+ home run totals, combining power with strong on-base skills. His best year was 2013, when Santana finished 15th in AL MVP voting on the back of .268/.377/.455 line.
Santana inked a three-year, $60MM deal with the Phillies prior to the 2018 season, but after just a year Cleveland re-acquired him via a ten-day stint in Seattle. His return to Cleveland proved successful, as Santana hit 34 home runs, won a Silver Slugger and earned his first trip to the All Star game.
That was his last dominant campaign though, and his final year in Cleveland in 2020, and the following seasons in Kansas City and Seattle have brought about wRC+ marks of 99, 82 and 102. While his average has taken a huge dip in recent years, he’s continued to walk at a strong rate and post solid power numbers. His HardHit% and exit velocity remain in line with his peak numbers, so there certainly seems to be enough to suggest Santana could experience a bit of a bounce back in 2023.
That’s certainly what the Bucs will be hoping for, but it won’t take much for them to improve their first-base output in 2023. Pittsburgh first-basemen combined for -3.0 fWAR in 2022, so the addition of Choi and Santana addresses that. Santana was worth three Outs Above Average at first in 2022, with Choi worth two and the pair will likely split time there and at DH in 2023. Choi’s struggles against left-handed pitching could mean he sits in those matchups while Santana mans first and Pittsburgh gives another hitter a game at DH.
Beyond his production at the plate, Santana will be a valuable veteran presence in a young clubhouse. The Pirates have brought through a number of prospects they hope will form the foundation of their next contending team in recent years, including Ke’Bryan Hayes, Oneil Cruz and Roansy Contreras. There’s plenty of young talent there with more expected to crack the big leagues in 2023, so having a veteran mentor in Santana around can only help the Bucs’ young core.
The $6.725MM guarantee is modest by MLB standards, but significant for Pittsburgh. It makes Santana the third highest paid Pirate for 2023, behind Hayes and Bryan Reynolds, and takes their projected 2023 payroll to $54MM, per RosterResource. That falls about $5MM shy of their 2022 mark and it’ll be interesting to see where the final figure lands for next season. A veteran starter on a similar deal to Jose Quintana’s last season seems likely, while the team could do with a low-cost catcher to bridge the gap until top prospects Endy Rodriguez and Henry Davis are ready to debut.
Photo credit: USA Today Sports.
just weird
He can play the guitar for the national anthem and Black Magic Woman for any Pirate that has it as there walk-up song.
I thought he had a residency booked at the HOB in Vegas.
pirates are closer to contention than people think.
Cards will always be good but the rest of the NLC is pretty blah.
Roansey & Keller are 2 of the top breakout candidates to watch next season. in all of mlb
Cruz is already a weapon, Reynolds in his prime.
Pirates have loads of talent in the minors that should only be about a year away from radar.
Santana signing is very similar to the Derek Lee pickup which overall didn’t get them in playoffs in 2011(?) but helped the team take a step forward for the years to come..
The final one minute, of the extended version of Black Magic Woman, is the best one minute of music in history.
Not even.
The Royals were lucky to find a taker last year. Good luck Buccos!!
This is worse than weird-just plain stupid.
Spending $6.75 M for a shot at a low level player at mid season is just stupid.They should spend the money on a starter and two veteran catchers and Cutch.Him and Andujar can be the right handed DH’s.,and Cutch can provide all of the leadership that they need.
I think that BC is trying to insure that he has a legitimate first baseman this year based on the seven illegitimate ones last year and I understand that but play Andujar part of the time with Choi.
Euphoria is in my opinion, Santana’s best instrumental
Live intro to Sweet Jane by Lou Reed would get some votes. First 20 seconds of Bloody Well Right. Hard to pick between such small bites, but Santana had some amazing pieces.
When does Rock and Roll Rumors start?
I saw Supertamp in Germany in 1979, they opened with “ Bloody Well Right “
The Athletic is reporting that Cherington has been in talks with Jose Quintana and is serious about signing both him and Gibson
Give it up on McCutchen. I don’t want him back even if he played for free. We need leaders and good influencers and he is neither. You’ll be asking for Walker next. Those days are over.
plus McCutchen, as much as I like him, at his age and lack of range in the outfield, would be relegated to DH duties only
BTW, I have a framed autographed home jersey of McCutchen. It hangs on the wall next to my framed autographed home jersey of AJ Burnett
Well, you can add “Oye Como Va” and when the Phillies come into town he can play “Smooth.” (Sorry, Rob Thomson was the closest I could get to Rob Thomas.)
Not really bad a pretty bad year yet was able to get on a contender for the 2nd half and play meaningful post season ball
Maybe he can open for Pink?
Mr pink, nah nobody opens for Mr pink unless I say so! As for now we’re rolling with Mr blue for opener, followed by Mr brown
Yes, he went to Seattle, his .192, then vanished during the ALDS, with a .552 OPS.
He’s catcher-slow at this point.
You have got to change your evil ways
“Don’t turn your back on me baby.”
Not weird, he has trade value if he hits. He’s a fine bat to add to the 1B/DH mix. Like this a lot for them. Also the young Pirates need a vet like Santana.
Maybe meant weird he signed with Pirates. No better contender would give him 5 to 6 million?
It’s pretty obvious that Santana knows he will get the maximum PA’s on Pittsburgh to hit his way onto a contender – its the smart move by him tbh.
I’m convinced Santana can only perform in a Indians uniform, that’s why he left with no plan to return and is trying his luck with the pirates, cause there the closest thing to Indian left in MLB? (Besides the braves, but the braves had no interest?) Pirates are pulling a Josh Naylor and saying “we need all the first baseman, we need all the Designated hitters, we need all the smoke!”
“ low cost catcher”
Which means, Nutting’s wallet will remain air tight closed for a catcher
His profit margin must remain intact
I bet there’s a bonus for if he gets traded at the deadline
bonus for Cherington maybe
Guessing he will get traded to SEA July 31st.
Or Cleveland…
positively_broad_st;
NO
WHY YOU HAVE CHOI!
One can be the dh
Not really, now we’re kinda stuck with a crowded infield so it’s one or the other.
Dh isn’t an infield spot
…I know, I’m saying it’s one or the other this is a terrible signing.
For both the Pirates and Santana…
For Choi and Santana and the Pirates.
and diaz and andujar
At least the Pirates spent a little money, unlike my Reds who trade anyone who gets close to $5 million a year. Bob Castellini is now the worse owner is sports.
Because they made 3-4 moves to add depth to 1B and DH, they are crowded? Please take a minute to recollect yourself. There is not a single 1B prospect option and there is no depth at the position. 1 has 2 years of control and could see AAA. That leaves 3 for a shot at DH/1B. Which seems to be more like a platoon for 1B and DH. Santana is limping in next year and looking for one more final pay before hanging it up. 36 years old and it’s a matter of time before he retires.
If you think this move adds too much depth, than I am truly grateful that there are smarter people running the organization. I may not agree or understand what they do. But this move makes sense for a starving/deprived power hitting club like the Pirates. If Santana can hit 15 hrs, that is more than what 1/3 of that lineup will hit combined.
*worst owner in baseball
Pretty sure Dan Snyder in the NFL has him beat.
Yeah, but they overspent it on Santana, someone who plays a position they had filled, and hasn’t put up a good season in years. The fact he signed with Pittsburgh this early in the off season tells you he wasn’t expecting any team to offer that amount to him.
He has been declining for half a decade now yet still has no problem getting signed. He must provide something more than just a bit above average bat and glove that teams look for. Someone like Luke Voit is younger, has a bit more upside and could probably get signed for the same money, yet they signed Santana after making the Choi deal. Pirate fans should be happy they signed someone who won’t be trying out for the independent league next year. If you have seen Santana play much the past 5 years you know quite a bit of his decline is owed to the shift. Like Teixeira before him he seems to hit right into it more often than not. I bet he has a resurgence without it next year and nets the Pirates a decent prospect at the deadline. A team like the Yankees will have the injury bug and Santana will hit enough without the shift to get them to cough up a bit more than a lotto ticket.
Is it me or have the Pirates never recovered from when they let the Expos talk them into making a young MLB ready Moises Alou the player to be named later a week after the Zane Smith trade 30+ years ago? Ownership obviously hated winning back then because they let every good FA walk and traded away all of their young prospects as soon as they were MLB ready. They went from powerhouse to laughable in 3 years and when they finally started turning things around 10 years ago they let other teams poach their talented pitching coach staff. My best guess is they look forward to their revenue sharing check every year and try to make it as big as possible. Pittsburgh deserves better.
Great signing. You need a 1b dh and a pinch hitter. Santana is the only 1 I would start vs rhp. Not crowed at all.
How is it great?? Just scroll through the comments there’s a bunch of people who disagree, including me.
Time to walk the plank, matey!
Go back to your den Cub!!
A bunch of people with far less baseball knowledge compared to myself. He could get hurt or something. But if healthy he should put up at least 1 war which will be well worth his salary.
For what it is worth Freshwind, I was agreeing with you that I did not like the signing
Andujar will play LF, Santana DH and Choi and Diaz will share 1st base duties
Shocking to me, Nutting agreed to open his wallet, probably requiring the use of a crow bar and a can of WD-40
They went from serious contenders to a laughing house because the $5 million per year contract they offered to Barry Bonds wasn’t enough “ to feed his family “. ( his words and remember this was in 1993 before salaries skyrocketed)
Doug Drabek, the 1991 NL Cy Young award winner also chose free agency and bolted to the Astros
he can’t be any worse than who else played first base last year
Yoshi and Van Meter combined for 5 home runs and less than 30 RBI
Smarter people?
I hope the Pirates give you a free bottle of water or one free chicken wing upon your next visit to PNC
Out of 230+ posts, this is quite possibly the most ridiculous take yet
but since you continually rise to the defense of ownership and what has become a puppet GM, you deserve some reward commensurate with the team’s standard operating procedures
There are beer league teams that have guys who “may hit 15 homers”. Sadly, they’re not being signed to $7m contracts and taking a roster spot that was earmarked for one of the “young, blue chip prospects” ready to play at this level
Here’s hoping Bucco ownership coughs up something for you
I’m sure it’s more about the leadership and intangibles than performance for a team like the Pirates who are looking to get their young guys developed/take the next step, particularly Cruz and Hayes.
I’ve also noticed quite a few others who agree… so who’s the authority? Or is it an opinion and no one is right?
It’s not that hard to hit a home run in a beer league; it’s very hard to hit a home run in a pro game. I’m not sure how that comparison works in favor of your point.
Did you watch the games this past season? How about 2021? 2020? Look, if you wish to play contrarian, try to add some insight. Try to hit me with ideas or factoids that perhaps didn’t occur to me.
I’ve been watching the Pirates since the 60’s. Since I am old and tired and like to torture myself, I watch them game in and game out. That said, there was little if any player development of the young players this past season.
You mention two players. That’s very nice. Maybe it escapes you there is literally an entire pitching staff and a roster full of guys the sage age as the two players you listed
“Leadership” and “intangibles” begin with the manager, and not in the signing of re-treads who will be gone in short order
Meanwhile, I’m sure you’re counting the days until the Pirates caravan comes to your town, when you can get some autographs and have your picture taken with the Parrot
Bye now
or it could be that being a veteran leader on a young team was too much of an offer he couldn’t refuse
Santana knows he’s in the twilight of his career, and he’s seen past veterans with Pittsburgh rebound one more time before retiring
AJ Burnett comes to mind
Sorry, but poor analogy. There is no Cutch here. Or Neil. Or myriad others on that Pirates team that had paid their collective dues and simply needed to find that confidence, which AJ, Frankie and Martin provided in spades
By your own admission, this is a young group which have shown little growth, development or learning, nor have they exhibited anything that would portend the team “competing” anytime soon
This was yet another throw-away signing from the Keystone Cops of front offices
The veteran I was referring to is Santana himself
Yes. I know. AJ had quite a bit left in the tank. As did Liriano and Martin. And they joined young players who were simply better than this group
Which blue chip prospects do you speak of?
AJ played 2 years with Pittsburgh, signed a 4 year contract with the Phillies because he wanted to be closer to his home in Maryland then discovered the grass wasn’t greener and had one of the worst seasons of his career
He convinced the Phillies to let him get out of his contract signed a one year deal with Pittsburgh again and had one more decent season before retiring
He wanted to retire as a Pirate
Yikes. You’re taking advantage of some pirate news huh?
The only reason they signed him is he can use Edgar Santana’s old uni
It doesn’t have to be one or the other, it can be both manager and player who provide those attributes. Santana’s leadership unquestionably helped the Mariners turn their season around last year. It was mentioned by Servais as well as various players. Clubhouse leadership is necessary; it can’t be 100% on the manager to lead the team. That just doesn’t work. And let’s be real, the Pirates are nowhere near a contender so it’s not like this signing is prohibiting them from making the playoffs. Doing everything they can to develop the players who will be part of a long-term core should be the goal this year, not going .500… plus if Santana hits, he can be dealt. So no, I’m not being contrarian, I legitimately disagree. PIT should hand out one-year deals every year until they are ready to take the leap.
Also, you do realize signing Santana doesn’t preclude them from signing guys to the pitching staff, right? It shouldn’t be an either/or. If that’s your issue, your issue is actually with Nutting and not with the fact that I think Sanatana could be a useful clubhouse presence.
As for your Pirates caravan comment, I don’t even know you’re trying to achieve there.
Santana was an integral part of the clubhouse within winning cultures. The M’s had the talent and he was the icing on the cake. Same with Cleveland. Great. You always need guys like this
But that’s not the issue in Pittsburgh. This is a perennial doormat and team that loses 100 games. It’s young talent has exhibited nothing that would lead observers that they follow in the footsteps of teams Santana has been with. They are years away—and players away—from competing
And of course the issue is with Nutting, the Mr.Potter of MLB (It’s A Wonderful Life)
It’s a signing that completely lacks logic to the point that it’s almost funny. You get Andujar at the end of the season, sign Choi and this guy
Meanwhile you have one wave of rookies here and another on the way
You’re going to lose 100 again with or without the deadwood. One was enough
Now you wish to speak of clubhouse personalities? He will mean nothing
A lot of young, talented players within the organization. It appears that there is no one who knows how to develop them, so much so that they’re bringing in $7m retreads to be a clubhouse influence. If only that’s all it takes to cut down on strikeouts, to understand plate discipline, to make good plays in the field, to learn how to pitch at this level
It’s an abject joke of an organization. Signings like this one prove it
You said it.
They over spent for Yoshi too. And they moved on
There is argument that Volt is declining rapidly. Pick your poison really. Neither is ideal, but one is needed. Contradicting maybe, but that’s how small markets are run. They need 1B help and Santana can provide that to some degree. The Pirates have a lot of work to do internally and internationally to be successful. Which they haven’t been for centuries other than a few lucky hits like Marte, McCutchen, and to some degree Jason Bay. They haven’t done well drafting, international signings and developing of these prospects for over a century. The last time the Pirates developed major pieces without much of trading, was the 1969-1975 Pirates. BIll Maz, Roberto Clemente, Willy Stargel, and others were product groomed by the Pirates. Pirates haven’t had that type of success since. You can argue McCutchen, Cole, Polanco, Marte, and Tallion are arguments to the crop above. But that 2014-2017 Pirates never hit the level the 1969-1975 Pirates did. The level of success that 1969-1975 club had, was something we haven’t seen since and what Pittsburgh Pirates struggle with. And that’s not good for a small market team like them. They can feed us fans a big line of BS to keep them in “good faith” with us fans. But truth and facts back up their inability to draft, sign prospects, and develop properly. They are MLB biggest failures
Choi is garbage.
Santana is a good pickup. someone to consistently give Reynolds a chance to score.
@YourDreamGM I agree 100 percent about Santana. Nice signing. I think a bunch of people are wrong. Don’t let peer pressure make you change your mind.
A year later you respond to yourself AND put yourself over? WTF? How drunk and arrogant are you?
@positively_broad_st Very and extremely.
Choi is rarely healthy or good
A very Pirates move.
Indeed Floch.
I’ve been an Orioles fan since the early 90s, I feel your pain, bro.
I thought it was a compliment to the Pirates until your 2nd comment. A very Pirates move as in signing someone cheap that the rest of the league is undervaluing or don’t see the potential.
He’s heading into his age 37 season and has slashed 207/.323/.355 over the last 3 years. He still hits lefties okay but it’s hard to see much real upside there.
Base is his knowledge and presence is worth something. A weak platoon is worth something. I think just that is worth at least 4 million. I am sure Pittsburgh wasn’t on the top of his list so obviously they need to over pay to get him especially this early.
Upside is he can get his ops vs rhp close to or above 700. He still hits the ball hard and draws walks so upside is if this isn’t the year that takes a sharp decline. Upside is no more drastic shifts and his average increases because of it. Upside is he is healthy at the deadline and they don’t have to pay all of his 6.75 and pick up prospects that further lower the price they paid for them as prospects have value.
Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous
If “presence” is your thing, Joe Espada is *still* out there as a managerial candidate, a guy who from all accounts is a player development type and one who communicates well with Latin players
I suspect he could have been had for less than $7m. But hey, great logic
If Santana can do some double duty as a player-coach, maybe you’ll be onto something
You do realize that players often learn the most from other players? This is why you get retired veterans in Spring Training despite not actually being a coach.
So these young kids, not only the ones here but the ones who are on the cusp or hitting the majors, are going to suddenly learn a great deal from a guy who’s been over the hill for a couple years, all because he’s older and can communicate
Ok
You overvalue the “other player” idea here. This isn’t the 1979 Pirates, when additions of Bill Madlock, Phil Garner, Bert Blyleven and others augmented a group of talented players
It’s not even the Pirates over their most recent glory era, when bringing in AJ was a windfall for a group of players just finding themselves
You’re spouting the perceived company line here, and nothing more
So these young kids, not only the ones here but the ones who are on the cusp or hitting the majors, are going to suddenly learn a great deal from a guy who’s been over the hill for a couple years, all because he’s older and can communicate
——————
You’re acting like this has never happened before.
Along with Choi?
What the Pirates are doing makes less sense by the day.
Why? Santana hits lefties, Choi doesn’t.
sch1989 2;
That’s why they did this?
They’re supposed to be a young team beginning to come out of a rebuild. They can’t find a young guy on their roster that can play 1B against LH pitching to give him some playing time?
None that are ready
sch1989 2;
Oh, please.
Name them then.
They have a boatload of youngsters with very little major league experience
Santana adds veteran leadership to a team in much need of it
Martin is their only other choice in AAA, and he strikes out at an even higher level than any other player in their system
Sorry, wrong. You want leadership? You could have fired the walking stiff Shelton and his staff and brought in Joe Espada
This team can lose 100 again with or without the retreads they’ve brought in to play 1st. Teach a kid the position
He can’t bungle it any more than Cruz bungles shortstop
He can’t be more iron-gloved or locked in cement than Josh Bell or as mentally out of it as Pedro
Ridiculous, dumpster-dive, again
I agree, Dude and Shelton has only one year left on his contract
If there’s not significant improvement in 2023, I’m sure he won’t be returning in 2024
When Nutting fired Hurdle and Huntington, both were also in the last years of their contracts.
In my opinion, Shelton’s a horrible manager. His background was as an assistant hitting coach yet there’s not one player that he’s managed over the previous two years that have made any improvement offensively
He changes daily lineups like most people change their clothes
He stuck with Yoshi for far too long and penciled in the worst player the team had in the last decade also far too often.
He said Van Meter was versatile. Holding a position but committing throwing errors while striking out more than making contact is not versatile
LOL TheMan you’re a funny lil one
@Samuel With your low iq it’s not surprising you can’t make sense of it.
PIT really hates Nuñez I see
He’s eligible for the rule 5 draft
Because they didn’t put him on the roster making him available.
They wouldn’t have traded for him if they hated him. Odds say he doesn’t get claimed. He still needs minor league work. No reason to waste a year of service time if the 2 Florida teams are just going to give you 1b.
Nunez is a defensive liability at 1st base and more suited as a DH
Take the shift away and hell putup some good numbers
Not enough people getting this about him. He was literally the most shifted against player in baseball and his BABIP suffered for it. The shift is banned next year. He’s going to rebound.
Additionally with as good of an eye as he has, an eventual switch to robo umps will be a boon for him.
He will be 37 next season and has not had a good season since 2019 during the juiced ball year. He won’t even b around if and when MLB goes to robo umps and he’s likely seen his better days as a MLB player. As far as the shift, it won’t b banned it will just b limited. Nobody will b playing him straight up and he’s still going to b a slow runner and his bat speed is only going to regress as he inches closer to age 40.
Yeah let’s b real, he won’t b the player he used to b even with the shift changing next year. I b-lieve he will rebound a bit next season though
Luckily for him MLB schedules won’t b as division heavy next season. NL East is loaded with good arms. I could see him doing a bit better if Pirates young bats are producing and the accompanied lineup protection. But still a far cry from when he was a dominant bat.
He doesn’t run so slow that the rf is going to throw him out like the 2b playing in the grass.
The shift being limited will work in his favor, full ban or not. And his contact and exit velo numbers were still solid. The Pirates have themselves a potentially solid trade deadline piece, and on a 1 year deal there’s no downside.
He doesn’t hit enough for the shift ban to do anything meaningful for him. He doesn’t hit for enough power to scare anyone into pitching him in a way that lets him take advantage of the ban.
The one thing the Pirates do have an excellent chance of buying, though, is Santana’s last season in MLB..
A bad team with little money spending a significant chunk of that on a washed up 1Bman? They had roughly a $55m payroll before this. Imagine spending more than 10% of payroll to platoon at the easiest position on the diamond to fill, to add less than 1 WAR by most projection systems. It’s indefensible by any serious fan.
how about spelling out the word instead of writing like a 5 year old?
I think everyone understands banning the shift may help, but it may be and likely will be negated by the fact that he is yet another year older.
Awful signing. He just can’t hit anymore.
He can walk though. Also the lack of shift will help. Still, weird signing.
Don’t forget Santana is a huge clubhouse guy , high character, great leader for the kids to emulate. Scott Servais said again and again how positive he was in the clubhouse, especially for Julio.
For a veteran presence who has had success at the MLB level, it’s a good signing. Minimal one year commitment and should b a positive asset in the clubhouse for the younger players.
But $6MM+ guarenteed? He’s likely to be the short side of a platoon.
They have very little in committed $. On the surface it looks as tho they could have got a player who would contribute more for $6 million. However, if they were seeking a veteran presence to help lead the clubhouse and show these young guys the way of the big leagues he’s a great fit. Plus to lure any veteran in the twilight of his career, they have to offer $. They are not offering a likely chance and contending nor or are they likely offering every day playing time.
@Tigers Well stated, sir +1
At least he won’t chase Javy Baez back to home plate!
Posters will complain about anything.
retire21;
What if it’s warranted?
That’s just it. Not everything is warrants complaining.
This is why I was against the Universal DH. I’d rather watch a pitcher hit than this guy.
Oh come on. That’s an absurd statement. He’s nowhere even remotely near **that bad**.
@retire21
That’s why I only decorate with the original.oils.
@goob
I don’t like your comment.
I love it!
Wow, he’s now their best player.
Reynolds, Bednar, Hayes and Cruz
If you are going to named pitchers keep going with the names.
Keller, Contreras, Priester
almost 5 era
Brubaker
over 5 era
Thompson, Wilson
Wait three years and Termarr Johnson will be your best player
@MannyBeingMVP Trade them all for prospects.
trading your 4 best players for prospects guarantees another 3-4 years of rebuilding
They’ve been rebuilding since Sid Bream. This is a long term 40 year rebuild. Not going to happen in 3-4 years.
Ouch, 7 mil for him?
Yeah Santana was probably worth more and got ot from a contender.
This makes less sense the more you think about it.
Monkey’s Uncle;
A small market rebuilding team is paying an over the hill veteran almost $7m because he can hit better against LH pitching then another 1B they just traded for?
I backed Cherington up until maybe a year ago when I began questioning his moves. Playing Cruz at SS was the final straw.
I now appreciate Pirates fans frustrations. This one is going to
cause an outcry.
Who cares what they pay him? The fact is it lengthens the lineup with Hayes/Reynolds/Cruz/Choi/Andujar/Santana and the eventual signing of Roberto Perez at catcher. He is a Major League Baseball player, something they refused to sign in years past. It’s a a good sign.
LarsAnderson;
They’re beginning to come out of a rebuild. In a case like this the objective is to get the youngsters playing time so that they can be dumped on at the ML level, then work to make adjustments so that they can stay and hopefully be productive – some will wash out. The process takes a few years.
You want to “lengthen the lineup” with a group of players that won’t be there when the youngsters are supposedly ready to contend in a few years? All this does is mean it’ll take more time for them to develop….if they do.
Do you think that line-up will contend in the NL Central in 2023? Do you have an y conception of how awful that pitching staff is? If that line-up maxes out that team will be fortunate to compete for 3rd place in the division.
The NL central is hardly a powerhouse in case you hadn’t noticed. Three of the five teams finished well under 500. And who says they are coming out of a rebuild? They lost 100 games again last season and have a really good chance of getting the #1 pick in the draft via the lottery. If they are coming out of a rebuild after losing 101 games that’s impressive. Only the Cardinals and Brewers have better pitching staffs within the division. Would you prefer they signed no one? Do you have any conception of how that would look? Third place in the division would be welcome at this point. You have no idea what the Pirates front offices objective is as your first sentence implies.
I just don’t see how it’s a good sign. You could find players potentially capable of this production barely receiving a contract. Sign a few of them. Invite them to spring training. Swing a deal in spring training for someone. It’s 1B/DH! even if you believe he was league average hitting it’s not worth the deal at this position(s).I get he can hit lefties. Honestly it’s a limited sample size. He was less good the last several years against them, but passable (at 1B/DH?…). Outside of the month of June he was pretty atrocious. He hit WELL under 200 almost every month. I Know he’s a walk machine. But walks can make up for only so much. This is why OBP and OPS are misleading because it gives TOO much credit for a walk. I get hits are factored into slugging obviously. If you want walks this much sign Robbie Grossman for 1mil. He has more upside. So why not sign 7 players like that? 7mil to this team is a lot.
LarsAnderson;
They traded for Choi.
Yes I am aware. Did I say they didn’t? I don’t understand the comment.
The coach chooses what players play at what position, not BC
And where else was Cruz going to start out? Hes a Shortstop!
He may end up someone else but they have to give him a shot.
These pirate bashers complain that the buccos are cheap. So they sign a 36 year old first baseman. They have no one coming up to play first. Good signing. Of it doesn’t work out oh well. I think these guys complain because they are miserable.
Lars,
The Cubs have inferior starting pitching but I do believe it is superior to the Pirates.
Who do the Pirates have who is better than Stroman, not Keller or Contreras.
Steele, Assad, K. Thompson, Alzolay, or B. Wilson, Brubaker and Z. Thompson?
We’re miserable because we’be only made the playoffs 6 times in 43 years which is also the last time we went to the World Series
In 1997, new ownership said that if the state could find the funds for a new stadium, they’d be competitive in 5 years
So the taxpayers funded PNC Park and then waited 13 years for the competition to happen
Nutting then bought out Kevin McClatchey for $97 million and proceeded to dump salaries and trade their best players
Andrew Mccutcheon and Neil Walker included
In 2018, they decided it was time to officially start the latest rebuild, a common practice used over the past 40 years
Yes, we’re miserable and for valid reasons
Except that if 2023 becomes yet another wash. they’ll be back to rebuild mode
2023 is also Shelton’s last year of his contract
Well…..I’m a Pirates fan and amazingly no outcry. The only thing worse than maybe…to some….a “questionable” sign, is to do nothing at all. Let’s see how it plays out. Santana’s the DH, Choi is the LH side of a 1B platoon. Santana is a veteran, and the Pirates need a vet or 2.
“Santana is a veteran, and the Pirates need a vet or 2.”
alwaysgo4two;
Agree. They should have had some the last 2 years. I wrote posts to that affect.
But for a cash starved club @ $7m? Taking PA’s away from the youngsters?
Look – I’ll back down. Am just sorry to see what’s going on there – The way the young players are used, their lack of fundamentals when being called up, the manager and coaches….I don’t know what they’re doing….I’ve seen a lot of good rebuilds and this doesn’t look like any of them.
Pirates fans deserve better. I think the younger ones are buying this. Those that have been around some are numb. I do think that both the Cubs and Reds are handling their situations better, and MLB is all about competition.
Always,
That’s a nice glass half full approach, better a weak signing than none at all.
But if Nutting is going to operate on the cheap, it was not the best use of limited resources
It’s an outrageous signing, period. In this town, you have a great many true believers in teams—the Steelers being the prime example—where any type of critique is looked upon as coming from “miserable people”
Yeah. Ok
Spend any amount of time watching this team and examining its moves, and then compare it to other teams. And extend the examination over years
The small market/big market talking point doesn’t apply
Nutting continues to enjoy fabulous profit in a stadium built with taxpayer dollars. He has no regard for wins and losses and given the MLB financial platform, has no qualms with poor attendance. He has no regard for the myriad businesses that set up shop around his playground, whose fortunes depend on said wins and losses. And notably, he has no cares about civic pride and the long suffering fan base in Pittsburgh
This is the worst owner in baseball and regrettably, he has another GM who is forced to do his bidding
Someone said this signing may have something to do with MLB’s efforts to ensure competition
That’s the only explanation that makes a bit of sense, a signing meant to say, “See, we’re trying”
You’re right, Samuel
It’s an abject joke. An embarrassment
A pathetic signing that placates fanboys and those whose knowledge of baseball equates to the same knowledge of pierogi races, hot dogs and t-shirts being shot into the crowd and yes, more fireworks nights
Another signing that shoots a hole into the idea that, “We’re going with the kids”
You forgot to end with “get off my lawn”.
Fans of baseball will understand this signing and what the Pirates are trying to do with it. They may not agree on whether it will work, but they will understand the logic. Most posters here will not understand, will not try to understand, and will just whine.
Also, as old men go, I’ve been a Pirates fan since Stargell’s rookie season.
Santana is not taking any ABs away from anyone.
Skeptical;
LOL
You started with an insult and wrote 2 more paragraphs of gibberish.
Do you have a degree from an American college?
You need to run for office….or work for the government in some capacity.
Skeptical, I’ll ask you the same question as I did to a fellow contrarian above: do you actually watch the games or do you just get your jollies in reading your own words?
The “logic” you write of is akin to mapping a trip to Atlanta, being “determined” about it, and deciding to stop in Buffalo and Chicago along the way. Point is, it’s all over the map
We’ve seen this approach from the Pirates 5 or 6 years ago. Veterans were traded or let go, the youth movement was pronounced to be on, and in short order, top prospects were soon traded away to be “competitive” in an I’ll fated run to a WC berth
Now this.
Your usual condescension notwithstanding, the signing and dealings of the franchise are not only difficult to understand by any measure, from MLB to little league, but lack the logic therein
But I suspect you know this already
cocktailsfor2;
Oh
Samuel, I wrote this to Buuba a few days ago but it’s applicable here, too. The Pollyanna crowd here believes some of us are old and crotchety, sitting at the keyboard with a stiff drink in one hand and a Xanax in the other.
That’s unfortunate. Baseball breeds debate
As for the kids….I have 6 or 7 acres. They’re welcome to play on it anytime they like. Best sound their is…kids playing
Time for a nice hibernation
Best regards
The Pirates aren’t cash starved their owner is cash hungry
For Santana maybe.
If you were in control, who would you acquire in the $7 million range who would help out the Pirates more?
I’m thinking it would have been a bit more helpful to get a guy who could play catcher or a little outfield. Gallo, Profar, or Dickerson come to mind. I guess a little more flexibility.
Candelario is a switch hitter, and could back up at 3B, as well. He’d have jumped for $7MM and regular playing time. Could have saved them the cost of Choi and Santana.
Yes candelario would have been a much better signing
Definitely agree on that one. Candelario would have been good. I actually think he would put up some killer numbers in Fenway because of where he hits the ball.
The team already has enough batters that strike out 100+ times a year and bat less than.250.
Candalrio wouldn’t have been any different
@stymeedone Did Santana say he was going to stop switch hitting?
@former I’d rather Santana. But no reason they can’t still sign Candelario or catcher. I fully expect them to sign a catcher. Reynolds Bae Suwinski all seem worthy of a chance in the outfield. CSN Mitchell Marcano Swaggerty all need a final evaluation at least.
No, but since they seem to be setting up a platoon with Choi, the Pirates may not agree. Also, some may not know Candelario is a switch hitter, which is why I mentioned it.
The guitarist right? Cuz that makes about as much sense as this
And the ballplayer is only *slightly* younger than the guitarist!
Makes complete sense to me.
It’s just pretty odd to me for the Pirates to spend like 10 mil on one position when they are rebuilding.
If everything goes right (unlikely) not having a decent option for 1b or dh would prevent them from being competitive. Also brings knowledge. Possible trade returns.
How do they not have a decent DH option in the farm that doesn’t cost 7 mil?
Nobody is screaming that they are ready and if they were they aren’t going to lose a year of service time and would hate to have a super 2.
Well they do need a catcher… and moving him back behind the plate wouldn’t make any less sense than signing him in the first place.
Monkey’s Uncle;
LOL
He was never a good catchers and he’s surely not moving back there.
They don’t have a 1b who can hit rhp. Make sense now?
You mean lhp? He has been bad his whole career against rhp
Actually yes I did mean lhp. But he has a career 777 ops vs rhp. That’s better than half the players in baseball. I would call that better than average instead of bad.
Always think the Bucs should go with younger “post hype” guys who might get things going with regular playing time. Miguel Andujar is a good example of who fits that bill. 36 year old DH’s struggling to bat .200 are not what they should be adding. .
His batting average should go up by a nice chunk. Not that it matters in comparison to what else he can do.
I’m gonna have to disagree with OPS+’s reckoning on this. I could see getting a veteran guy who may be some sort of positive influence and who isn’t absolutely horrible but why pay for it when you could get it for near league minimum? And you could have it as a bench piece instead of a guy taking up DH/1B playing time.
You are going to get a solid defender who projects to hit 700 ops and has the potential for 800 for league minimum? Who is this mythical player?
Why do you think he has the potential for an 800 OPS? Not all OPS is created equally. His 700 OPS is truly a poor man’s 700 because it is almost all from walks and home runs. He does nothing else. My point is you are signing a player for almost 7 million. For that price you could take a flier on at least 3 or 4 other guys and look every season at all the players who sign cheap deals and end up with an ops around 700. It isn’t that hard to come by. Sign a vet coming off a bad year or two. Sign a guy who crushes minor league pitching but has never gotten much of a chance. Off the top of my head in 2021 Villar and Zunino were guys who was signed for little. How about Brandon Drury in 2022? These are people performing really well but there are lots of less spectacular signing every year that work out.
@Rishi How many guys were signed for less than 2 million and how many of those had a 700 ops? Yes every year there are guys signed cheap who produce. Many teams try and most of them fail. Pirates are as good at it as most. Remember Gamel Vogey? I don’t care how he gets it. Do you not think the Pirates can use some walks and hrs? Why do I think he has 800 ops potential? Well in a year that he struggled badly early on and had a low babip he was close to 800 vs lhp. The other 2 pirates 1b havn’t show the ability to hit lhp so Santana will play vs lhp. He hit under 700 vs rhp but with no shift his average will increase. He hits the ball harder than the majority of players. Pnc park has short right field and he is a pull hitter.
Not to mention that he doesn’t even have a 700 ops and hasn’t since 2019.
One of my points is there is no upside here. He’s gonna probably be a sub-700 ops guy or right there like he was last year the year before that and the year before that.
Looking for upside with a 37-year-old is a fool’s errand.
There are no metrics I know of that accurately judge a 1b defensively so whether he is a solid defender or not is anyone’s guess unless youve seen him play a lot. At 1b even the little extra that the guy reaches out to catch the ball can be the difference between safe and out. Most of the things they do go unnoticed even sabermetrically. Freeman is a wizard btw.
@Rishi Here you go. 1Bman’s defense:
fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=fld&…
You know we count everything now, right?
I seen him play plenty.
I’ll take your word that he hits the ball hard and I would be interested in whether he hits into the shift a lot. That will change this year if he does. I guess it’s ok for a platoon. I do also think it would be even easier to try to find a cheap guy who only hits against lefties if it’s a platoon. I’m not gonna look back on contracts to see who signed for approx 2 mil and produced an ops around 700 at least. I’m not commiting to that right now.
The reason I don’t trust the first base metrics as much is I have watched 1000s of games and seen some 1b that I could tell were very good that rated average by many of the metrics. I know my eyes can lie. I played 1b for many years. In my opinion there are things people wouldn’t even think to measure.
I also admit that I only know a handful of sabermetric stats. I have too many interests that outrank mlb unfortunately to get around to learning all this. I guess I should. I know more than most people tho.
In other words I’ve been lazy I guess.lol
“His HardHit% and exit velocity remain in line with his peak numbers, so there certainly seems to be enough to suggest Santana could experience a bit of a bounce back in 2023.” Don’t take my or mtr word. Plenty of sites will tell you how hard he hits the ball or you can hit the film room and see for yourself.
“no one faced a shift more often than he did (98.3% of the time)” Either he hits into the shift a lot or 98.3% of mlb teams are clueless and need new management.
You can learn sabermetrics stats in a few hours. See what they mean and what the average is. If you are using your eyes you don’t need sabermetrics. You can use data and create your own sabermetrics.
Platoon player? He has a career 777 ops vs rhp. He is still hitting as hard as his peak years. Had the lowest babip of his career. They can’t drastically shift him anymore. Doesn’t sound like he is limited to a platoon player to me.
Those are good points. I don’t just use my eyes but I also don’t think they are worthless like many seem to. I do know some sabermetrics pretty thoroughly I meant I don’t know enough sabermetrics to evaluate a 1b defensively. It is much easier to evaluate other positions because range and arm play such a bigger role. Obviously range is still important but I think stretching, scooping, and even getting to the bag early enough to give a good target are very important. That last point is surely not measured by sabermetrics but it’s always a balance at first between how far you can set up away from the base and how quickly you get back to it or the fielders throw at a moving target.I know this more from watching and playing than from analyzing.
I do Strongly believe that 1. Your eyes often lie to you BUT also 2. That your eyes are ONE of your best tools and shouldn’t be neglected but perfected and compensated for with advanced metrics. Take an outfielder that makes lots of fancy looking plays but has to dive because he gets bad jumps or is not fleet of foot. I would obviously look beyond what my eyes tell me but if I watch a 1B like Adam Laroche play probably 500+ games at first in my life and he has practically no career defensive war then I can hypothesize that the stats are incorrect. 1b hardly get credit when they are involved in more plays then anyone else and if you just watch games at LEAST every few games there is a play where a 1b either costs the team an out or gets them one that a below average 1b would not have.
Is Rob Thomas still available?
Over most people’s head!
Smooth
Gregg Rolie.
Michael Shreve
Greg Walker might be available….or perhaps Gregg Rolie
Rollie Fingers would be an upgrade
But I’m not crazy, I’m just a little unwell
Tune by Rob Thomas/Matchbox, not the player.
Pirates need offense and are looking for flippable pieces at the deadline. Choi and Santana give them that
Oye como va mi ritmo
Signed him for a song
Good one
What is Wins Above Replacement good for?
Absolutely Nutting.
Manny hitting it outta the ball park tonight !
I suspect they could have gotten him for 4 million in a couple months if so inclined….
I don’t see it
I suspect they could have signed him with a Major League contract offer.
Nutting opening up the checkbook.
I actually predicted this signing on another thread about a month ago. Though in fairness that was before the Choi trade. Also $7 million is about 3x’s the amount I thought it would take to get him. The Cards paid Albert Pujols $2.5 million last season to mash lefties.
Santana should be able to hit rhp and can definitely still play 1b. 7 million is what it took. 4 or 5 million he goes to a contender.
I remember someone suggesting Santana and Heyward.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on his value. We’ll never know what other teams were offering, but I would be willing to bet that later this offseason a player with similar expected production signs with a team similar to the Pirates for way under $7 million. And yes, it was me who suggested Santana and Heyward. I do believe in having a veteran presence on a young team similar to what Odor did for Baltimore this past season.
@DonOsbourne Not bad that I remembered that huh? Did you actually predict it though? My memory says you thought they should sign them, not would. Either way not bad.
As far as value I believe he is undervalued but a team would pay 4 or 5 million. If you think he is only worth 1 to 3 million then the pirates over paid. Technically they have to over pay to get most free agents or not get them. It’s fine to disagree.
Can’t believe Santana’s signing produced over 200 comments. Man, talk about a slow news day.
You got me DreamGM. I definitely was making a suggestion more than a prediction. Excellent memory.
Well the pirates liked your suggestion.
They paid him exactly what he was worth. In 2022 he produced 1.2 WAR and probably closer to 1.233 even though it’s not publicly measured past the first decimal. Also, the average valuation for 1 WAR was $5.43M.
And what is 5.83 x 1.233?
6.7… or…. $6.7M for 1 year of Carlos Santana.
But the WAR valuation is more of a guideline than a rule. His value is what the market says it is. I doubt there were other teams willing to pay him that much even for one year. The Pirates were bidding against themselves in an effort to raise payroll so they won’t be accused of pocketing all of the revenue sharing money they receive.
There are two types of value relevant here: market value and intrinsic value. The two are not synonyms. Market value is what a commodity sells for in a market. Intrinsic value refers to the useful qualities of the commodity.
@DonOsbourne Ridiculous. Pirates can care less about anyone accusing them of pocketing revenue. Just about everyone has been accusing them of that forever. But let’s just say you are right. So now that they “overpaid” for Santana all that pocketing money talk will stop. Well that’s good news and well worth the overpay. Every time you see someone accuse them I expect you to defend their owner.
I should clarify. I agree that the Pirates don’t care at all about public opinion. Signing Santana to an overmarket contract will do nothing to appease the fans or quiet their accusations. However, we have already seen two instances this offseason of the union claiming owners are colluding against the players. If the Pirates spend less on payroll than they receive in revenue sharing, eventually the union is going to take issue. If the issue were to reach a courtroom, the Pirates might have to open their books and let a lot of dirty secrets come spilling out in a public setting. That would be bad for not only Nutting, but possibly every owner in MLB.
@DonOsbourne I should clarify. When I say everyone is accusing them I mean EVERYONE. The players union has filed multiple grievances on the pirates since 2018.
You analyze a lot of contracts and place thought behind them. However, they mostly occur in a vacuum void of context. If the Pirates were in serious contention next season, it would make some sense. But the Pirates paying market value for slim marginal win points doesn’t considering their overall payroll. They’re paying him for his clubhouse makeup as well.
What perplexes me a bit more is the Galvis decision. Freddy Galvis is a switch-hitting true SS, who was better than average at fielding the position. He’s only getting $6M in Japan. He hit .242/.302/.407/.709 in 2021. That isn’t that bad for an above-average SS. Heck, that’s better than our cleanup spot was all year.
With the shortage of true SS, I would think his market would’ve been better last year and this year. I mean, IKF is getting $6M this year.
Sorry all, my above comment about Galvis was placed in this thread accidentally. My apologies for ruining the mojo you all had going with the conversation.
Hell has frozen over. Which in away isnt bad. We need the water in Ca.
You need a lot more than water to straighten out all that’s wrong in California.
No one said it was going to be a easy fix. We can’t control how much rain we get.
Just a follow up from other day :
Source: Tyler Faubert has received the death penalty for his report about Cody Bellinger to the #jays
The Death Penalty??? Which State?
Ohio
Why are people worried about the money? The Pirates have so little committed they could offer Aaron Judge 50m/year and yes they could afford it.
Santana has always been a good clubhouse guy and the lineup needs every bat they can get.
Que the Pirates fans doing damage control …… Ooooooops too late
Not a Pitates fan. People act on this site as if it is their money or it matters if a team overpays. Pirates are a very profitable team. So they spend 7 million on an average player. Fine.
Pitates, pilates, all the same
It’s not that they spent $7MM. Its that they spent 10% of their payroll on a player that should be considering retirement.
Maybe Malcolm Nuñez will be ready to handle 1B later in the season. Until then, Santana and Choi can ostensibly offer the Pirates some semblance of a veteran presence, and then they’ll get flipped at the trade deadline for 25-year-old minor leaguers who may prove useful in the bullpen someday.
Way to go Pirates another 1b, now you have at least 3 lol
In their defense, the three combined may have a suitable on base percentage for most team’s starting 1B
Jvent-Hmmmm well the bases will be bigger in 2023.
Instead of none. Could be decent platoon at 1B with Choi hitting righties and Santana hitting lefties. Also, need a DH. Choi, Santana, and Andujar likely to fill that spot. Similar approach to last season when they signed Tsutsugo and Vogelbach. Choi is a definite upgrade over Tsutsugo. This could be decent. I definitely don’t hate this.
You can’t “hate” the Pirates. But you can hate the way the organization operates. Total laughing stock until the kids arrive.
They haven’t had any in 15 or 20 years besides a 2 month rental and a week of the big nogowski. A Josh Bell who couldn’t throw was better than what they had the last 2 years. 3 sounds pretty good.
I did not feel he looked productive at all with Seattle at the end of the year
Pirates scored 591 runs last year. The 12 playoff teams averaged 750. Pirates need actual major league hitters. For what Nutting allows them to spend, this Pirates fan is happy with them adding Choi and Santana.
they also set a team record for the most strikeouts and the least walks
Pirates absolutely stockpiling crappy first baseman for no apparent reason.
This was their biggest contract since 2017? Wow, just wow…
This guy was the definition of clutch last year. Mariners probably miss the playoffs without his heroics.
? Could have got him for 4 million cheaper in 3 months when “his market” cooled off
A contender would have given him 4 million before 3 months were up.
No serious contender needs Santana, at least not for $4 million or more. He was destined to end up with one of the MLB dregs. Agree with the previous poster, had the Bucs waited, and assuming Santana was their target, they could have saved a few bucks. Worst case scenario is some other dreg signed him first, in which case, it’s no big loss.
Play the kids. If the Bucs are destined for another 100 loss season, I’d rather watch the potential of youth instead of some old dude who is a good clubhouse presence
The Pirates are heading down State of Confusion Boulevard once again. Just when you think they’re all-in on the youth movement and feel kind of good about the Andujar deal, you get not one but two guys who can’t hit but can stand over at 1st base
Nice signings, Ben
The Pirates can and likely will lose 100 games with or without these two guys.
How about spending money on some people who can develop young players?
They can both hit and likely will. At least better than Andujar (who can play OF)
They can both hit and likely will? Seriously? Are you just in a joking mood today? Yeah, I can hit, too, but the “likely will” tag is about as pertinent as it is to these guys
No, on the contrary both are coming off poor offensive seasons and likely will be the 2023 versions of Tsutsugo and VanMeter
I had to laugh at Jason Mackey’s article in the PG today saying this signing “makes a ton of sense.” Maybe Buuba and a couple others here are disciples of his, as they parrot the same tripe
This kind of signing exemplifies the Nutting ownership team and Ben Cherington. It’s a joke. And the notion that he’s a “good clubhouse guy?”
Yeah, maybe that will nullify having a stiff as manager
That’s you’re problem tired
I’ll be reminding you in August, Buuba, when they’re doing the same dance they did for the past few years, even with the “blue chippers”
But you just keep believing, dude
My statement is for this season. Last season stats are irrelevant.
He hasn’t slugged over .400 since the juiced ball in 2019.
This signing doesn’t really make sense to me, I thought the Pirates were trying to save money for the rebuilding process, not spend 6.725 mill on another 1st baseman.
6.7 is absolutely nothing. They have to spend something in attempt to defend themselves against the players union.
6.7 is absolutely Nutting
There. I corrected it for you!
Way too much $. Can we please talk about how they gave Daniel Hudson 11 million for 2 years in ’17 after a season with a 5.23 Era as a reliever! He was traded to Tampa after 1 season for Cory Dickerson and was then cut before the second year in spring training by Tampa. Doyers picked him up for the year. Angels sign him in 2019 and was yet cut again in spring training. Jay’s signed him and traded him to Washington during a so so season and was their closer by default closing out a WS title. Wild ride.
I don’t think they should have signed him but his 5.23 era was irrelevant.
Hudson’s FIP that year was 3.81, very much in line with his career ERA. Sometimes a pitcher’s bad luck is a team’s way of saving a couple of million.
Durable in relief since the injury, capable of getting a few saves. There are a lot worse ways to spend five, six million, as we’ve just seen.
Yeah but in 2017 for a reliever om the Pirates who wasn’t signed to be the closer. Were talkin 7 seasons ago
I’ll go rogue on this one. For almost any team, I’d say this would be a bad signing. But with the Pirates the early favorite for last place, and with a bunch of kids playing and coming up, having someone with Santana’s reputation might add value that money can’t buy.
They could’ve gotten a better player like Abreu, but still finish last. But which of those two choices will have a bigger l/t impact?
Brady,
I thought about that. I seem to recall reading O’Neill Cruz has killed someone and Bae hit a girl. Maybe Santana can give them some direction that a better but possibly equally affordable player like Wil Myers could not.
usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/pirates/2020/09/23/p…
mlbtraderumors.com/2018/10/pirates-prospect-ji-hwa….
This is not a comment on your post, but it’s odd how undiscussed it is that professional athletes despite living in fishbowls have a much lower rate of perpetrating domestic violence than other men in their age cohort (who, incidentally, are not the primary instigators of domestic violence).
It appears that the discipline of athletics teaches restraint, among other virtues. You’d think we’d be publicizing and promoting that.
See for example the article at livescience, “Are Pro Athletes Prone to Violence?” by Rachel Retter, which reports:
“By some estimates, NFL players have a considerably lower rate of domestic violence arrests than the general population.
Jack,
Is it possible that money buys silence? Power corrupts, wealth creates privilege, but poverty creates anger too.
I sure think steroids can cause rage and violence.
In any event, I claim no expertise in this area.
That’s an excellent point Jack that needs to be shouted from the rooftops to anyone who will listen. Counter-intuitive until it’s not, when you really think about it.
professional athletes despite living in fishbowls have a much lower rate of perpetrating domestic violence than other men in their age cohort
================================
It could be the money. Some of the DV could be caused by guys hitting rock bottom, or being frustrated because their life is going nowhere, and they take out their frustrations on whoever is closest.
It might also be possible that an abused wife of a professional athlete would prefer to divorce him and get a settlement, rather than report it, have him suspended, and get a lesser settlement.
He and Choi will be an +800 OPS 1B for around 10-11M. That’s dirt cheap in today’s market. Santana alone should be better because of the new shift rules, anyhow.
Its dirt cheap for any team with a budget over $150MM. When the budget is half that, spending 10% on what has become the most affordable position on the diamond makes no sense. Choi and Andujar would have filled the position nicely.
Smh.
Me after reading,like, the 500th pun here on Santana as musician and ballplayer…:o(
Wait till the Owner of The Pirates Owner comes back to work after this 4 day Holiday and finds $6M missing. But then again he might be a Carlos Santana “You have a nice tan” Fan.
(A C&C Reference there)
Starting to feel like Correa goes back to the Twins.
I’m holding you to this, Trumbo!
Watch him sign with the Rays or something… haha.
Thanks for stopping by, Trumbo.
If he wants to keep playing he will have to change his evil ways, baby.
Terrible, terrible move.
A punchless. 207 average from a 37 year old over his last three seasons, without any real statistical significance to his platoon splits? Set the money on fire.
The irates will be infinitely better off giving the plate appearances to ANY young player with ANY promise at all and spending the 6.725m in international FA or on a draft pick or picks they otherwise thought they couldn’t afford.
This is what badly run teams do, and the irates did it. Yechh.
Great move. And they will spend the max international and in the draft regardless of what they spend on the mlb team.
Seven million might be ok for a clubhouse presence on a team that spends 200 million, but yeah, I think they could have spent the money to upgrade their central and South American scouting, Asian scouting, etc.
Allegedly that is where all the revenue sharing money goes.
3 first baseman in less than 2 weeks? Oh well, I’m happy to see them actually give players MLB contracts.
They had zero 1b. 0 dh. 0 pinch hitters. 3 is bare minimum.
Pretty pathetic that this is the biggest guarantee the Pirates have handed out in over 5-years.
The only reason they have this now is because of the spending clause added to the PBA contractual agreement that requires a specific level of spending in order for these teams to get the CBT/share allocations given to them (which is over $100MM).
You’ll start to see these types of signings by many teams to get the spending out of the way. Likey a bunch of one or two year deals in this lower range to boost up their payroll in controlled increments.
I do hope the Pirates get new ownership or whatever they need. One of the classic organizations that was really fun to watch when they were good. They have a beautiful stadium, good fans, and just need to commit for them.
apparently you don’t know the owner of the Pirates, manostheof
He’s the Scrooge of MLB
Oye como va the pirates finish last again
I’m surprised he hasn’t returned yet. Numbers aren’t great the last few years
Hell of a sign! He’s an estabished veteran who deserves to get paid. Santana’s calling card is ‘Clutch!’ We all get older and skill may diminish – but you never lose experience.
So hire him to coach.
They could sign Judge, Verlander, deGrom and Rodon, and still be under the luxury tax.
I love Carlos as much as any Clevelander, but I have always preferred the Fleetwood Mac version of “Black Magic Woman.” Mac before they went Hollywood was a heck of a band.
240 comments on the Bucs spending $6M on one guy is impressive in its own way.
They would complain if they signed THE GREAT ONE. Find some excuse to babble
I said this above but it bears repeating for the continued eye-roll material you provide: I’ll remind you of all of this in late summer—perhaps even earlier—when the Pirates are well out of contention and the same types of at bats and boneheaded plays in the field—the same pitching style that loves dead red—is with us again.
And having seen him many times, I can say that even THE GREAT ONE couldn’t make this team competitive
The Pirates signing Wayne Gretzky would be a questionable move, though.
The Bucs are significantly better at 1B than they were a couple weeks ago. That’s a step in the right direction. A nice platoon instead of nobody on the roster who can play 1B. Throw in veteran leadership and it’s win-win.
Similar to the Nationals signing Nelson Cruz last offseason. But not as much of an overpay. Possible Santana can be flipped at that salary if he’s providing any decent production.
Santana was clutch for the Mariners last year. Seemed like every hit / HR tied up or won a game. While his batting average was not impressive he was a leader in their clubhouse. The Pirates will benefit from that, but likely he will be flipped at the trade deadline.
This is where they decide to throw money? What a joke
I’m confident that Ben will go sign a solid veteran starting pitcher now. He brought in Quintana last season and Tyler Anderson the season before and that worked out well for the Pirates, as well as those two pitchers.
His statcast numbers are good (just like Choi’s). Seems like a value add here. Choi is a bargain if he can be healthy.
Pirates are going to fill all their needs with 1B/DH, even their pitching needs.
I thought Santana was approaching “Spring Training invite” territory, not a guaranteed $6.7MM deal.
The shift elimination might be part of their thinking, as are perhaps the platoon splits between Choi and Santana. The lefty Choi historically hits RH’d pitching a bit better, and the switch-hitting Santana hit .265/.387/.402 against lefties. So maybe a platoon?
I always liked Santana. I remember being mad when we traded him to the Indians. Especially since we could have gotten Sabathia in a even bigger deal but Frank McCourt was a cheap bum.
He might be worth half that figure if they are somehow able to trade him for anything useful at the deadline.
In the meantime he will give them next to nothing for the $4.5 he will make until August 31.
Pardon me. JULY 31
Did anyone have Santana going to the Pirates? Wow!
I currently have Choi, Santana, Josh Bell, Trey Mancini, Yuli Gurriel, Brandon Belt, and Luke Voit signing with the Pirates.
I had Santana going to the Pirates. A tiny step in the right direction. Remember, a significant (or insignificant) part of the 2022 team was “built” from waiver claims. So, this is an improvement!!!
First Base is definitely improved with Santana/Choi. Not stars, but they are legit. MLB players. Lewin Diaz – Triple A, unless someone claims him. No way can I see him on MLB roster, unless there is an injury.
Rule 5: I would like to see them claim Gabriel Martinez from Toronto, He raked in his 19 year old season at A and A+. A potential impact bat that doesn’t K a lot. A rare premium prospect left exposed to the Rule 5 draft. His only drawback is lack of experience at higher levels (but, if he had that, he wouldn’t be available). He is already rated as the best hitting prospect in Toronto’s system, and would be the same in the Pirates system. Hits for average, hits for power (at 19), doesn’t K a lot. Is he ready? Experience says no. Talent and results says “maybe”. I would take him right now over any outfielder on the roster not named Bryan Reynolds. Experience comes with time, talent does not!!!
Pirates Management: Are you listening?
Pretty sure Carlos Santana is 75
Just looked at the Pirates’ 40-man roster and there are 41 guys on it. Anxious to see who gets dropped.
Duane Underwood Jr should be kicked to the curb. ERA of over 4 as a relief pitcher is unacceptable for a team trying to win games
Yep I was just about to say the same thing. Someone needs to go
Kranick is on the 40-man and he had TJ surgery so I guess he doesn’t count.
There is no 60 day IR exception in the off season. Everyone on the 40 man rosters counts regardless of health. A DFA is up coming. My guess would be Ryan Vilade, Lewin Diaz or maybe even Miguel Yajure.
Correction: Lewin Diaz was DFA’d
I just hope his walk up music is Smooth with Rob Thomas.