Welcome to The Opener, our new weekday morning series here at MLBTR! Nick Deeds will take you through three things to watch around MLB, with our typical hot stove leaning.
Here are three things we’ll be keeping an eye on around the baseball world:
1. The World Series Sees Its Second No-Hitter
After watching Lance McCullers Jr. give up five home runs while Ranger Suarez shut the lineup out in Game 3, Astros fans were no doubt feeling a bit queasy headed into a Game 4 against Aaron Nola, one of the best pitchers in the NL. Just as they did in Game 1, however, the Astros lineup managed to get to Nolan, striking for five runs in the fifth inning. However, the Astros’ offense wasn’t the story of this game — Cristian Javier struck out nine over six shutout innings to combine with Bryan Abreu, Rafael Montero, and Ryan Pressly for a no-hitter. It was the second no-hitter in World Series history (preceded by Don Larsen’s perfect game in the 1956 World Series), and just the third-ever postseason no-hitter (also at Citizens Bank Ballpark, Roy Halladay tossed a no-no in the 2010 NLDS). While there’s still plenty of baseball to be played this November, it’s worth noting that both Larsen’s Yankees and Halladay’s Phillies went on to win their respective series. For tonight’s pivotal Game 5, the Phillies will start Noah Syndergaard against Houston’s Justin Verlander.
2. The Mets Brace For Losses, Eye Additions In Free Agency
After a 101-win season that ended abruptly at the hands of the Padres in the Wild Card series, the Mets now face some significant free agent losses, and center fielder Brandon Nimmo and closer Edwin Diaz are reportedly the free agents New York wishes to retain the most. Mets owner Steve Cohen is certainly unafraid of making a splash in free agency, and the team will have to devote some more resources to rebuilding it rotation, as three starters (Jacob deGrom, Chris Bassitt, and Taijuan Walker) are likely to hit free agency this offseason, and a fourth could join them if the Mets decline Carlos Carrasco’s club option. Few players with deGrom’s level of potential impact exist in the game, much less on the free agent market, but Verlander and Carlos Rodon are both arms who could take deGrom’s place alongside Scherzer at the top of the rotation in Queens. The likes of Nathan Eovaldi, Jameson Taillon and Tyler Anderson represent possible mid-rotation replacements for Bassitt, while Walker’s quality back of the rotation production could be replaced by a variety of pitchers, including Syndergaard, Corey Kluber, or Sean Manaea.
3. Brewers Face Tough Decisions In Arbitration
In yesterday’s opener, we discussed the massive arbitration class the Rays have heading into 2023, with their 19 players being the most of any club. Milwaukee isn’t far behind with an 18-player class that is projected to receive $79.9MM, and thus the Brewers are set to approach their 2023 payroll even before making additions this offseason. While there are some non-tender candidates in the group, most of the significant money in Milwaukee’s arbitration class is tied up in productive players too valuable to just cut, so a trade of one of these more expensive names (i.e.Hunter Renfroe, Willy Adames) could make some sense. Of course, then the Brewers face the new problem of finding adequate replacements for their production for a lower price. Whatever path he may choose, GM Matt Arnold’s first offseason at the helm of the Brewers’s front office will be one to follow.
A combined no-hitter is not a no-hitter. Period.
How many hits did the phillies get last night?
Me. Blutarski…zero point zero.
Agreed. This is very different than Larsen pitching a no-hit bid by himself.
Ironically, the Astros offensive power drops off a cliff when they’re away from home……………. Perhaps it’s just Philly, because it’s not…ya know.
Yeah, the Phils definitely have some sketch home/road splits during the playoffs this. You never know after what those Astros, Sox, and Yanks did back in the day.
Larsen did better than a no-hitter. A perfect game. In the World Series.
Of course it’s different:
1. Back then, starters went longer in a game so Larsen went the distance.
2. The Dodgers didn’t get a single runner on base.
So what do you call a game where the other team doesn’t get a hit?
I call it a boring game….
Have anything to do with the Yankees getting no hit in the same fashion back in June?
Nope, Astros still cheat though – who would’ve figured.
You do know Beltran isn’t there anymore and was in the NY booth all season right??? So technically he was helping you this season genius.
I’m sure Beltran is the reason Martin Maldonado used an illegal bat……..
Where’s the proof that they cheated this year. As it’s been pointed out so many times Carlos Beltran was the main architect of the whole system. Where did he come from? The New York Yankees. If anyone should give titles back it’s the Yankees 27 tainted titles
Again…. Martin Maldsonado used an illegal bat in the World Series, like a few days ago.
And there’s no proof Beltran came up with that system with the Yankees; it could’ve been well before he arrived in NY.
Astros just can’t stop cheating, however. They’re a good team, they just don’t have the confidence to win without cheating.
Hey man hang in to any thread you need point is the Astros beat EVERY AL team this year and are 2 games away from winning the World Series. I’m sure you’re on board with the belief that framer had sticky stuff in game 2 also
No idea if he had that or not. Umps checked him, so it is what it is. Maldonado was *caught* using an illegal bat, however. And, they’re road splits for power are curiously down.
Regardless, I still think they’re a better team than the Yankees and would’ve beaten the Yankees this year, so I’m not debating that point.
It’s a good thing you’re not bitter. Good grief. I’m going to sweep your comments under the rug just like the Astros swept the Yankees.
I’m not bitter, I just don’t know why they cheat all the time. Again, they’re a good team, certainly one of the best in the AL. They just can’t stop cheating…… And many of you criticize the Dodgers WS win, which is far more legitimate than a cheating one, honestly.
Call it bitter, it’s just pointing out facts, just as every single one of you would do with any other team that persistently cheats. Just win once without cheating……
At 250 pounds, elephants are the second biggest babies on Earth next to Astros fans.
And why was the bat illegal? Did you even read up on this at all? It sure doesn’t sound like it.
As soon as he found out that he couldn’t use it, he stopped using it. He was unaware of the grandfathered rule.
Sure sounds like it. Again, read up on what happened with Maldy.
I did. It was illegal because it was too big. Anyone entering the Majors after 2011 couldn’t use that large a barrel. Of course he stopped once he was caught! He wouldn’t have been allowed to play. That’s just a silly point.
Once more, I readily admit the Astros would’ve beaten the Yankees, they are a better team. But, what other player in the Majors this year, particularly in the playoffs, was using an illegal bat? Don’t you think that helps with his hitting?
It illustrates a larger point though: What else are the Astros doing for which they haven’t been caught yet? It seems they’re doing whatever they can get away with. Framber’s accusation (again, not my assertion), Malady’s bat…c’mon, man, you can’t tell me that not just a bit too coincidental that it’s *only* the Astros. Goodness.
dude, Dodgers official twitter posted multiple videos last season of multiple Dodgers going yard using Albert’s bats, so you need to take the L on this one
What I find interesting is any time the Astros are caught cheating, it’s a constant redirection to the past. Constant mentioning of Beltran, mentioning the Dodgers last year, mentioning everything else, except an admission that they cheated and shouldn’t have.
But, I ask, how is that an “L” for me? That applies to the LAD in ‘21, correct? What does that have to do with the ‘22 Astros?
I really don’t get the aversion to admitting when their players get caught cheating…..
Yet NYY was also sign-stealing using dugout phones in 2015-16 – years before HOU was caught doing it with CF cams: usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2022/04/26/new-york-…
Let’s not act that no team isn’t guilty of trying to gain a competitive advantage. Some are just better at getting caught OR Manfred tries to protect the most profitable/popular teams by not unsealing the documents.
You’re a good dude clipper but yankee fans hating on other teams for cheating is laughable
Again, more misdirection. I never said the Yankees didn’t try to gain a competitive advantage. This has nothing to do with the Yankees. Also, the Yankees didn’t do anything that was punishable at the time. Moreover, it was only with RISP.
Nonetheless, I still don’t approve of what they did, which I’ve said. So, please tell me how the Astros cheating again, and me pointing that out, equates to supposedly denying the Yankees did something…unethical in 2016 (and they didn’t win)?
Since we are traveling in the past, the Astros cheated using systematic progression, after teams were specifically prohibited under threat of punishment in 2017, and arguably won *only because they cheated*
So, back to ‘22. How does “gaining a competitive advantage” as you term it, excuse specifically prohibited acts? The only excuse is…..”Yankees, 2016.” Uh, okay.
Nice way to deflect the fact that Beltran played on your team and cheated there, then worked in your booth this season helping Judge to his best season ever. Nice clown
I appreciate that, but I didn’t like it when the Yankees did it either, man.
Also, my last response was to DMC, not you, Latino Heat. Should’ve clarified that. Maybe it’s below this comment now, I don’t know.
My point is, that apparently, nobody snapped that it was “illegal”; given that it was happening in plain sight, with positive publicity, throughout the second half of last year, in L.A.. Your take on this is the equivalent of saying that George Brett was “cheating” with pine tar back in the day.
And, regarding the Astros (or any other team) “cheating” with sign-stealing, spitballs, scuff balls, corked bats, etc, I only have ONE issue : that is, the Astros were extremely foolish to keep on with it, after the Commissioner’s edict. If they had not – particularly against Tampa Bay in post season, it would never have become a real issue.
Rocker49: You think Beltran, while on air and in the booth, and talking about how he cheated with the Astros, was giving information to Judge? And I’m the clown? Okey dokey.
But, since you’ve debased yourself by resorting to insults, you may want to consider the legitimacy of your assertion, which is impossible.
So cheating is only unacceptable/wrong if a team wins doing so? Got it.
NYY can’t win even cheating — so gloss over how hilarious that is wallowing in their own mediocrity.
DMC: Well, that’s not what I said, but why do you persist in reverting back to 2016? I don’t get it. I added the point that they didn’t win in brackets as an ancillary point. My point in stating that is that I vehemently oppose the idea of them even trying (because they obviously didn’t succeed). I also lost respect for Girardi, who knew about it.
But, you can spin my comment any way you want to avoid talking about what’s happening today, in ‘22.
Clown? Maybe you’re looking in the mirror….exactly how would Beltran relay signs down to the dugout and then on the batter Einstein…..and with the entire world watching his every move, after losing the Mets manager job, exactly what would be the motivation in “helping Judge to his best season ever”.
Wow!
Ok the Maldonado thing is stupid. Pujols had those bats grandfathered in but because another person uses them then they are illegal. That’s just stupid and the only reason they aren’t allowed because they splinter badly when they break. I remember when the game was simple. Catch throw hit the ball.
No the bat is illegal because they splinter so badly when they break
this is the best, most comprehensive, most objective article I’ve ever read on the whole issue si.com/mlb/2020/01/13/houston-astros-cheating-puni…
Point is all teams cheat
All good man we’re just talking baseball nothing personal
The bat Maldonado used was also used by Pujols himself. I don’t want to get into details about the kind of bat, but MLB is on record for being concerned about the possbility of that bat shattering because it’s made of wood.. After all, in game 1, a bat used by Kyle Tucked shattered and nearly hit Nola in the head because he wasn’t paying attention. MLB allowed Pujols to use that because it was “grandfathered in”, which is kind of confusing. I wonder if they would allow Maldonado to use the bat if Tucker’s shattered bat didn’t nearly hit Nola.
Clipper is correct because it technically is. cheating and ishereTom Verducci being cited in the Houston Chronicle as to how/why: “”Here’s the catch to it,” Verducci added. “In 2010, Major League Baseball changed the bat specifications. That bat that Pujols modeled was no longer legal—except if you were playing prior to 2010, it was grandfathered. So Albert Pujols could use that bat, but Maldonado, who began his major league career in 2011, was not legally able to use that bat.”
I believe they discontinued that model for safety reasons because that model traditionally has a bigger barrel and at the time, there was an uptick in broken bats. Tucker’s broken bat nearly hit Aaron Nola.
He was unaware of the grandfathered rule.
=============================
And how do you know this? Because Maldonado said so?
He should be suspended for one game, and the Astros should be fined, As one of the articles mentioned, what happens if Maldonado drives in the winning run with an illegal bat.
I don’t know if he was unaware or not, Joe, but I think he shouldn’t be suspended at all. After all, he can’t drive in the run with an illegal bat because they told him he can’t use it so you don’t have to worry about it. This is a very minor infraction and not worth making a big deal over.
Waaaaaaa says the Yankees fan. You do know that the Astros learned how to cheat from the Yankees?
Maldonado used a bat that Albert Pujols used all season. How was he supposed to know that he wasn’t supposed to use it? That’s MLB’s fault. 100%
Actually they didn’t “learn to cheat from the Yankees”.
That’s an absurd unsubstantiated accusation. They did get it from Beltran, however. You should be embarrassed by your post.
Yep, not his fault, at all: no accountability. You seem adept at making excuses though. Apparently baseball isn’t life.
Its on MLB to have said something. They inspected all equipment prior to game 1 and said nothing about those bats.
You should be embarrased by your whining. Beltran was a Yankee who came to Houston and said “you guys need to be doing what we did the last two seasons in New York.”
So they did. They learned to cheat from what a former Yankee taught them about what the Yankees were doing. Your semantics aside, they learned to cheat from the Yankees.
MLB inspected all equipment prior to game one and cleared those bats. The umpires are responsible for it during the game and they said nothing.
It wasn’t until someone not on either team said something that the bats were declared illegal. Its a complete nothing unless you are a whining Yankees fan.
“The bat was deemed illegal for safety reasons and not competitive reasons”.
That is why it’s not cheating. But you are a b-hurt Yankees fan so you gotta hate.
Look, pro-Astros guy, you do you. Facts don’t change because you want them to. BTW, it’s not hating if it’s factual, fella. Or you can just keep saying “2016” every time your team does something illegal. That’s called moral equivalency.
Not an Astros fan. The Yankees were the team cheating in 2016. The Astros hadn’t learned the Yankees system to cheat until 2017. If you want to try to be factual, use actual facts. Stop whining about other teams being better at the cheating system the team you cheer for created.
You re-writing history just makes your argument invalid. Stop going back to 2016, it’s irrelevant to today, unless speaking to cumulative stats. Nonetheless, I didn’t say you were a fan, I wrote you were pro-Astros, which you are.
And I oppose any team cheating, including the Yankees. Although, ironically you say the Yankees cheated when they didn’t, it wasn’t illegal then. But then you argue that doing something illegal in 2022 isn’t cheating. Pick an argument because you use circular logic and undermine your own statements.
Goastros: was looking for you in the Boards when the Astros beat the Yankees. Was going to congratulate you on your team getting to the WS. The Astros are simply a better team, and have been for a while.
I was surprised at how poorly Altuve has performed this postseason, but McCormick has certainly picked up Jose’s slack.
There is NO Evidence of that. That’s an Astros’ fan conspiracy theory. Disinformation.
As I said before, Clipper, winning starts at the top and the Yankees front office seem like they don’t want to win as badly. Also, what’s up with using thw 2004 Red Sox as motivation?
Since it was brought up: cheating is simply trying to gain an advantage through dishonest means. The Yankees tried in 2015 and stopped in 2016. Now, let’s move on please. I’m not Maldonado so I don’t know if he was trying to gain advantage or not. In general, he’s not a very good hitter so that bat wasn’t going to turn him into Carlton Fisk or some body. Therefore, I think suspending over this would be an overreaction, especially since we don’t know if he was aware of that rule or not (we could assume he was just because he plays for the Astros, but that’s a dangerous mindset in life). Still, I completely understand why MLB won’t let him use a bat like that: safety is important.
It wasn’t cheating at the time. That’s why no fine.
Goastros: I have no idea, man, but I think that’s just an illustration of why the Yanks aren’t performing. Granted, they don’t have the requisite personnel to compete with teams like the Astros either.
But, for a mental skills coach to suggest the use of the darkest moment in contemporary Yankees history, and their manager to use it… I’m at a loss for words.
You’re 100% right about the Yanks not trying to win. I’m not suggesting they would win, but it wouldn’t be a clean sweep, bro. They’ve become a playoff team, and that’s their limit, much to my chagrin. Astros are built for the regular & postseason, not the Yanks.
It was cheating at the time because no where in the definition of cheating does it mention being against the rules. You can cheat within the rules due to lack of a specific rule.
Clipper, Yankees will win #28 some day. I just don’t know if that will happen under Boone and Cashman.
Ridiculous
It was illegal because MLB has data showing it is more likely to cause an injury if/when it breaks because of the grain of the wood.
MLB stated it was not due to any performance altering issue.
If there was any reason that bat Gave any advantage, Pujols would not be able to use it either.
They can not “grandfather” an exception that results in a performance advantage or unfair play.
My hopes are not high, Goastros. Cashman is good, but he’s not that good. I think they just need some new blood. Astros are crushing teams in their use of analytics too. The Yankees stand by theirs strictly, but lose.
Plus, I saw the Marlins (I think) picked up your director of scouting. What’s that mean for you guys? He picked one heck of a pitching staff through the international signings.
As an Astros fan, I have to deal with the cheating History.
It sucks that none of the other cheating teams had a whistle blower so the lack of proof means my team gets singled out.
But it is what it is.
I have listened to it for 3 years and the Astros deserved everything they got.
But what that has to do with 2022 I don’t know.
I guess as long as the Astros keep winning then LOSERS will just keep spreading the narrative because there is no accountability in today’s world.
Out of the 26 players on the Astros roster only 5 were on the 2017 team. Less than 20%.
2022 has nothing to do with 2017. Get over it.
Wait… how does Beltran working the booth supposedly help Judge? What nonsense is this now?
Some us are with you all the way on this, Clipper. I don’t know how your showing so much patience with all the absurdity being tossed about.
Clipper, you do realize that the Astros only cheated in 2017, right? In 2015-2016 it was the Yankees doing the cheating according to the Commissioner’s Report.
OILF: Yes, although arguably 2017-2019 according to opposing players. But, in the midst of all the back and forth I did openly acknowledge that several times. And, although it wasn’t illegal at the time the Yankees did it, nor to the degree, I still took issue with the Yankees doing it because it’s unethical, imo. As I’ve said before, I lost respect for Girardi because of it. Cashman should be booted too.
The method the Yankees used in 2015-2017 and the system the Astros used at home in 2017 was not possible after that season. It wasn’t illegal for the players when the Astros did in 2017 either. The Astros TEAM was penalized because after the Commissioner’s edict sent to the owners and FO of teams in September 2017, the Astros kept using the system because the FO and manager didn’t tell the players to stop.
Wasn’t 2019 the “buzzer” season though? Unless I misremember the year. Anyway, David Roberson is one of the more vocal about that year and several players still cheating on the Astros at that time, especially in whichever postseason it was.
It doesn’t affect the Yankees though. They’re going to keep failing regardless, especially if they keep running the same crew out every year.
2019 was the “buzzer”, yes.
There never was a buzzer
Some yahoo made it up.
He was just brainstorming possible reasons Altuve did not want his jersey ripped off.
There was never any credible evidence or even a legitimate scenario or story of anyone associated with MLB or even fans ever seeing or hearing about a buzzer from anyone else.
The idea that anyone believed it is ridiculous
Pujols uses the same bat. Is he a cheater? Nope.
MLB deemed the bat illegal (not because it gives the batter a competitive advantage) because that type of bat has known safety issues.
MLB grandfathered Pujols’ use of the bat after making it illegal due to safety issues,
In this case, the narrative is far important to the rabid hatred of the Astros than the actual facts.
Astros 79: I wasn’t arguing for it against the theory, just using it as a frame of reference for the years of player accusations against them.
Goastros: Looks like your boys pulled it off. Winning two in Philly sealed the deal, imo. I know anything can happen but I don’t see Philly winning two at Houston. You’ve got to be stoked.
I am, but job isn’t finished.
Former President Obama stated, “political reporting is a lot like sports reporting. People are always looking for the controversy, to stir stuff up, cause that is clickbait, it attracts attention.”
He went further, “the nationalization of grievance and anger-based journalism, the growth of social media and technology whose product design monetizes anger and resentment.”
Maldonado was not the only MLB player to use Pujols’ bat. Multiple Dodgers players used the bat (and hit home runs). Should MLB suspend Dodgers players and fine the teams or just Maldonado and the Astros?
MLB needs the rabid intensity of the Astros’ hatred to continue. World Series ratings are encouraging and the attention is certainly noteworthy.
Most MLB fans that hate the Astros don’t particular care about facts; the narrative, and it’s built in anger and resentment, is far more important than the truth.
The fandom’s hatred against the Astros is on par with the BS anger among Trump supporters regarding the election – the grievance narrative is far more important than the truth and, Unfortunately, sports journalism like political journalism, is ready to seize the opportunity and monetize the anger.
The Astros’ cheating scandal will continue to be clickbait gold on social media.
Thunder echo: So, you’re asserting the Astros didn’t cheat? And you say the anger/resentment/acknowledgement amongst fans/players/managers/grandmothers is misplaced?
I think the rabid denial amongst Astros fans of what their team did, which was rivaled in baseball only by the Black Sox scandal, is more noteworthy.
To simultaneously shout from the rooftops that discussing it or referring to it is hyperbolic (or lying) while also bringing up other teams’ past is disingenuous at best.
Oh, never mind the fact that the Astros own person e spoke about it as well as a multitude of players/coaches/managers from other teams.
Honestly, many of theAstros fans (not all) are in denial. They do exactly what they accuse everyone else of doing while defending the Astros actions until the very last breath. Astros cheating is exactly what it is….bad for baseball and unethical.
Also, your equivocation of Maldy violating rules by citing other players did it is not surprising, but it is irrelevant.
If the Dodgers get caught cheating and beat the Astros in ‘23, Astros fans would be the first in line with pitchforks and torches. And they would never ever let it go, as evidenced in their repeated references to Yankees championships over two decades ago and the 2015-2016 seasons with Beltran.
Classic “not my fault….ever” behavior
Even the umpires didn’t know it was an “illegal” bat. It was removed from play because of player safety, not because it gives a competitive advantage.
Actually its in the commissioners report and dozens of articles including at least 4 that are considered seminal on The Athletic.
There was no “buzzer”. Baseball investigated that thoroughly and it turned out to be BS. Kind of like everything you have said in this thread. But hey, keep on whining while the Astros keep on winning.
You’ve obviously not read my comments and I’m frankly disappointed Out in Left Field. You’re usually better than that. You’re baseless accusations are inaccurate because I *never said he used a buzzer*. In fact, I clarified it was a reference for the year he was accused.
You’re obviously reading what you want on this one but feel free to try to pile on……inaccurately. And, who cares about umpires? His bat wasn’t legal was the only point I made. Stop defending indefensible points. You’re more intellectual than that.
The Astros PLAYERS didn’t cheat. Electronic sign stealing using the methods the Yankees pioneered in 2015 utilizing a live game feed from the centerfield camera and that the Astros used in 2017 was not mentioned anywhere in the CBA. So many teams complained about it and the Yankees and Red Sox were fined for it, so on September 15, 2017 Manfred sent a memo to the teams indicating that teams could be penalized for doing that going forward. As Manfred stated in his report regarding electronic sign stealing by the Astros and investigations into other teams, the Astros FO did not inform the payers of the rule changes. so they kept using the system for the rest of the season. That is why no players were penalized and the team owner, GM, and manager were given the 2nd worst penalties in modern baseball. Only the Braves owner and GM have ever received a worse penalty.
Letter from MLB about Yankees sign stealing that they fought so hard in court to hide from the public. “During our investigation into the Red Sox’s misconduct, [Redacted] informed the Department of Investigations that the Yankees used a similar scheme to that of the Red Sox to decode opposing Clubs’ signs and relay them to the batter when a runner was on second base. [Redacted] — who initially noticed that the Red Sox were using a smartwatch to pass information to their players — admitted to the Department of Investigations that during the 2015 season and the first half of the 2016 season, [Redacted], provided information about opposing Club’s signs to players and members of the coaching staff in the replay room at Yankee Stadium, who then physically relayed the information to the Yankees’ dugout. [Redacted] also admitted that during that same time period, in certain stadiums on the road where the video room was not proximate to the dugout, used the phone line in the replay room to orally provide real-time information about opposing Club’s signs to Yankee coaches on the bench.” There was more, but this is the key section.
Yes, I agree with both of those, with one exception: do you honestly believe those players didn’t think they were doing anything wrong? If so, why would AJ Hinch “get so mad he smashed a monitor/TV” they were using?
Nevertheless, as I also wrote multiple times: despite the fact that what the Astros did was worse, I think what the Yankees did then was unethical as well. Whether or not it was legal at the time is besides the point to me. I think they knew it was wrong and did it anyway. I don’t respect, and won’t excuse that behavior by any team or player.
My only point was that MLB players accused the Astros of cheating from 2017-2019.
Typical Yankee fan being completely wrong. It had nothing to do with the size of the barrel. It was an old-fashioned maple bat. The kind that would shatter into lots of little pieces when they broke. MLB made bat companies redesign maple bats so they broke more like ash bats.
You use the term no hitter to say it’s not a no hitter.
It was a no hitter. It just wasn’t a solo no hitter. It’s actually pretty impressive to have 3-4 different pitchers complete a no hitter. They all have to be dealing, and none of them wants to be the guy to screw it up for the guys who went before him, so added pressure. Whether you like it, or not, it’s a no hitter because no one got a hit.
At 44% saline, the Don Juan Pond is the second saltiest thing on Earth after Astros haters.
You mean after the people hating on the Astros?
Yeah it’s a combined no hitter if we’re being technical. Not as impressive as a traditional no hitter where the SP goes start to finish, but no hits are no hits
Not really. The only guy who did anything notable was Javier, and he lasted six innings. There’ve been a lot of six inning ‘no-hitters” that were subsequently lost. The other relievers did stuff relief pitchers do all the time: pitch an inning without giving up a hit.
The no-hitter is special only because one pitcher successfully holds the opposing team hitless (despite, gasp, facing the lineup more than twice!).
Not hating on the Astros; I feel this way about all combined no-hitters. The way the teams celebrate afterward, often mobbing the last pitcher who often pitched just one hitless inning, borders on comical, and I suspect only happens because tradition dictates it. I tip my hat to Javier, who pitched very well but I seriously doubt any true baseball fan viewed last nights game with the same excitement or interest as they would have a nine inning no-no.
That’s absolutely right. Like the 2017 WS, this no-hitter will forever go down with an asterisk.
I think any true baseball fan would recognize and understand that a 9 inning no-hitter happing in today’s league is unlikely. Just saying.
It’s as or more likely in today’s game as ever before, with singles at historic lows.
From my perspective, last night’s game was a good game from the Astro’s perspective, but hardly something that will define this series (ala Don Larsen).or be talked about for decades to come. If Javier goes nine and tosses the no-hitter, people would.
It’s arguably not because now adays most starters don’t go full 9. In the context of how different the game is today, it was a historic no hitter because no one has thrown even just a pseudo no-hitter in the world series since 1956. I respect your opinion, but if you wanna go down that true-baseball-fan-route, true baseball fans wouldn’t downplay last night’s no-hitter and penalize it just because of the era it happened it.
Eras matter.
Most pundits say it’s harder than ever to get a hit BECAUSE of analytics, specialized/matchup relievers coming in throwing serious gas and the batter only seeing a pitcher twice at most. Add in shifts and elevated strikeout rates (resulting in fewer balls put in play) and all of that adds to an increased likelihood of a no-hitter. You say it’s unlikely in the league today; I note the record number of no-hitters thrown in 2021. Fluke? Maybe, but the aforementioned reasons all factor into the increased likelihood of a team being no-hit.
Again, all I’m saying is, it’s just not that special compared to one guy negotiating the lineup again and again for nine innings, fatigue and batter familiarity mounting along with the pressure of the no-hitter.
Eras do matter, and so do the differences between the eras. You’re not the first person to put emphasis on the amount of pitchers it took. What I’m saying is this isn’t 1956: this era is different and because of that, before you write off a combined no-hitter as less impressive, you might want to take a step back and examine the differences between the two eras, one of which is not nearly as many starters go full 9 innings.
You want an example of how different the two eras are? Don Larsen was not a Cy Young candidate in 1956 and yet he pitched as many innings as the likely 2022 AL Cy Young winner Justin Verlander. How? By going 9 innings. In fact, the Cy Young winner in 1956 amassed 268 total innings and that was Don Newcombe, who also won that season’s league MVP. Don’s 268 was even more than the total innings Verlander had in his MVP season.
Your opinion is your opinion and there’s nothing wrong with that, but in full context as well as my opinion, last night was just as impressive as Roy Halladay’s 2010 “proper” no-hitter. Also, I’d like to point out that what makes a no-hitter a no-hitter is not how many pitchers are used.
Because pitchers don’t go nine innings as often, I’m supposed to be AS impressed by a pitcher who goes six and three others who go an inning a piece? Are you as impressed with four guys who run a quarter mile a piece in four minutes as you are with one guy who runs the entire distance in the same time?
This year, 46 pitchers threw six innings of no hit ball (an average of two per week). This year, there were 152 instances where three relievers combined to throw three hitless innings (an average of FIVE per week).
It’s not that special. And in the era we live in, it’s even less so for the reasons I’ve already listed in my last post.
When I say eras matter, you’re making my case for me. A starting pitcher’s accomplishments were more noteworthy back in the day when he went nine (AND pitched a heck of a lot more innings). An ERA of 3.25 was a lot more impressive during the height of the steroid era (innings being equal) than the same
ERA was in 1968. Eras matter.
As for what makes a no-hitter, you’ll note that they call it a ‘combined no-hitter”, acknowledging that it’s not the same thing. A watered down Coke is still a Coke; it’s just not as good.
You say you find a combined no-hitter as impressive as a ‘proper’ one. I’ll take your word for it, but I seriously doubt very many people on this board or baseball fans in general would agree. I’m GLAD for you you enjoyed it as much (and being an Astros fan, I’m sure it was even more special) but I’ve offered up a LOT of reasons why it’s not.
1. I’m impressed any time a team with an offense that has done very well at home is no-hit aka completely shut down at home on the biggest stage in baseball aka the World Series. That’s very special.
2. Also, you’ll note that in the words “combined no-hitter” is still “no-hitter”. After all, combined is a no-hitter because a no-hitter is just a game where a team doesn’t get any hits. Your coke analogy doesn’t work.
3. Saying ‘eras matter” goes both ways because that helps my case just as much as it does yours due to how unlikely it for a starter to go distance like Don Larsen, which you cited as a reason as to why last night’s no hitter isn’t as special or impressive.
4. You put up reasons as to why you feel the way you feel and that’s fine, but context matters. Not only that, but it was foolish for you to even go down the route of “true baseball fans” in first place because you speak for no one but youself. I recognize that I only speak for myself. In fact, look at Utah’s comment for the likely overall attitude towards last night’s no hitter: I’m 100% sure people are more likely to downplay last night because it was the Astros who did.
5. What impresses you is up to you.
I did say I only speak for myself while saying “In fact, look at Utah’s comment for the likely overall attitude towards last night’s no hitter: I’m 100% sure people are more likely to downplay last night because it was the Astros who did it”. I admit I don’t truly know that, despite what I said.
“I’m GLAD for you you enjoyed it as much (and being an Astros fan, I’m sure it was even more special) but I’ve offered up a LOT of reasons why it’s not.” – thank you, but me being an Astros fan has nothing to do it. At the end of the day, that is your opinion. I respect that.
I sense I’ve gotten under your skin, which was certainly not my intention. Instead, I thought you might address all the reasons I’ve listed why no-hitters aren’t as notable in today’s era, and why combined no-hitters aren’t as impressive, vs. the subjective ‘my opinion matters’ tack. Baseball debates are always fun, especially when backed up with facts, but ultimately, everyone’s opinion always matters most when it comes to what makes you happy.. Again, I’m glad you enjoyed it..
I do challenge you though as you talk amongst other baseball fans to take your own poll and and ask them if they think a combined no-hitter is as impressive. I’m pretty sure you’re going to be in the defined minority, not that matters. Go with whatever makes you happy.
1. You didn’t get under my skin. It would take a lot more than. However, you did come off as unlikable, and you kind of still are.
2. I sense that you’re not being very self-aware right now because you made the mistake of acting as if any true baseball fan would agree with you. The truth is agreeing or disagreeing with you doesn’t make or break whether or not some one is a true baseball fan because that’s not up to you. Quite frankly, that was very arrogant of you. Even now, you’re totally disregarding how I previously said that you’re not the first person I’ve seen to put emphasis on the amount of pitchers it took and thus, your challenge is ridiculous. Minority vs majority doesn’t change any of this or how you came off.
3. I’d be more than happy to acrually address your reasons if you weren’t so focused on ignoring mine while making the assumption that the only reason why I disagreed with you is because I’m an Astros fan.
4. I challenge you as well: I challenge you to have a discussion where you are more conscious of the fact that not everyone agrees with you and that doesn’t make them any less of a proper fan than you. Baseball discussions can be fun, but only if both people are humble and, with all due respect, you’ve been the opposite. Also, I challenge you to look up the definition of a no-hitter so if a no-hitter is ever thrown in the world series again and you have another discussion with a fellow baseball fan, you’ll able to prevent your opinion from revolving around a misconception.
You know what? This isn’t worth continuing. I hope you’re able to learn from this experience. Have a good one. God bless.
Again, sorry you’ve taken offense.
I only mentioned you were an Astros fan ONCE, and that was in saying I’m sure the game was more special as an Astros fan. Nothing critical implied by that at all.. When someone on my favorite team does something I enjoy, it means more to me too.
My assertion from the start was merely that a combined no-hitter isn’t the same as a traditional one or as notable an accomplishment, and I don’t view it as a true no-hitter in that sense.. People debate whether Bumgarner’s seven inning no-hitter is actually one and not that long ago, any truncated but official game in which no hits were allowed was counted as an actual no-hitter. Baseball fans debate these things. I provided stats to support my side, as to the frequency and different era. That’s a baseball discussion.
I remain confident most fans would agree a no-hitter thrown by one guy is more impressive than a combined no-hitter, but everyone has their own tastes and standards.
Best wishes.
Waaaaaaaaa says the Phillies fan Ted.
It’s still a no hitter but it’s not the same. It really makes it seem more if a failure on the team that got no hit than it is anything else. Without it being an individual accomplishment a lot of the excitement is taken away.
Agreed… it’s still impressive, but not as much as if one pitcher does it beginning to end
Even with a WS no hitter, this series has been a snore fest
Because the brewers excuse of an offense would make it so much better right? It’s actually been a really entertaining back and forth series with the momentum shifting after every game
Didn’t mention anything about the brewers? Keep being a window licker though
Keep being a hater I’m sure that’ll get you real far in life.
Wall
Mute
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Are you 12?
Trade Burnes, Renfroe and non-tender Wong and depending on the return for Burnes possibly trade Tellez as well. Play the rookies, add an innings eating starter and a HL bullpen arm or two. Contend for the WC if half the rookies perform, division if most do.
Playing a bunch of rookies with the Brewers hitting philosophy doesn’t sound like a recipe for success. If they struggle offensively the Cardinals could win that division by Memorial Day.
That’s pretty much the nuclear option. The WC could be in contention but the Cardinals (and even the Cubs) would have to really stumble if a downgraded Brewers want a chance at the division.
This isn’t a bad plan in the long-term but it’s definitely a “wait for Chourio” sort of plan. Adames, Tellez, Woodruff all have shirsey-selling power so it might make sense to keep them around or even work on extensions.
But if the Brewers are going to realistically compete for the division they definitely need to keep Burnes and would be foolish to let either Renfroe or Wong go without fully replacing their production. Beyond that, they would still need legit upgrades to keep pace with the Cardinals.
It’s almost a given that Wong’s option won’t be picked up and Turang will be playing second next season.
As a Sox fan I’d gladly take Burnes and welcome Renfroe back. Problem is we don’t have a heck of a lot to offer in return unless they want Dalbec/Duran/a pair of low level minor leaguers
And that ain’t happening. For Burnes, the Sox would have to give up Mayer and a bunch more.
If Dusty would start Hunter Brown, he would no-hit the Phillies as well.
So far in this World Championship Series, veteran aces have been pounded – Verlander, McCullers, Wheeler, and Nola twice.
The postseason really is a crapshoot.
The only “World Championship Series” is the World Baseball Classic that takes place this winter.
Clap clap CLAP clap clap.
If teams really wanted to, they could bring in a fresh arm every inning and we’d see more so-called no-hitters every game. I don’t qualify this as a true no-hitter in the books but I understand that nowadays, we give trophies to everyone for participating. Yet, Madison Bumgarner’s seven-inning no-hitter wasn’t considered a no-hitter, despite pitching within the rules laid out by MLB for that season.
Really? MadBum needed to get 6 more outs. Why do they even play the last 2 innings then? HOU pitchers got 22% more outs than MadBum — and during the WS, which has happened on one other time, in any capacity (Larsen’s perfect game).
Heck, give MadBum the no-hitter credit, but take it away from him the next time he screams for someone to get off his yard when pimping a HR.
At least Larsen bothered to go the whole way. We’d have more no-hitters if we just bring fresh arms every inning. Given the decline of the starting pitcher, why not increase the roster to allow for more pitchers? Then we don’t need to worry about hurting someone’s arm.
Astros allowed no hits aka a no hitter any way you want to spin the narrative
Okay, then we should celebrate any no-hitter, regardless of how it was achieved or the number of innings. If a guy goes 5 perfect innings, he should be honored with a perfect game.
So you’re going to take away the accomplishment from the pitchers who have little to no say in their usage? Do you see how counterproductive that is?
@RunDMC
If that is your claim then why not celebrate the RPs that come in for 1 inning in the 6th of a 15-3 game and gets 3 outs, no hits? Are you celebrating that accomplishment and putting it in the HOF?
Weak argument
@RunDMC
and no rebuttal…
Can’t wait for the daily celebration of RPs coming in to pitch a perfect inning and being accredited with that award..
No because 5 innings isn’t the full game. The Astros allowed 0 hits the ENTIRE game.
Yes, the ASTROS did. Again, are we going to celebrate individual performances for 1 or 2 innings?
It’s pretty simple man an entire game without a hit = a no hitter. 1 inning of 0 hits means good job but nothing special
@Latino Heat
It is pretty easy.
And entire game performed by multiple pitchers apparently makes a no-hitter but we’re also equating that to no-hitters by one pitcher only.
So, why not celebrate the individual pitchers each time they don’t give up hits? We’re doing that here with the Astros pitchers.
Seems a bit arbitrary.
Okay we’re not doing it here with the Astros. They are being celebrated because all pitchers who pitched combined to allow 0 hits. If Presley had allowed a hit you would just be hearing about how Javier made history
You’re being ridiculous.
I’m muting you. You’re a jackass.
A “no hitter” is a description of a game.
Any full game where 1 team did not achieve a single hit was ” no hit”
That game is described as a no hitter.
Period.
It could be 1 pitcher who achieved it or 27 makes no difference.
Now of course different things like the number of baserunners( if any) and importance of the game determine how impressive it is.
This is not as impressive as Don Larson’s perfect game.
That does not mean it should not count as a no hitter which is a ridiculous argument.
MadBum’s No-Hitter happend in a 7 inning complete game as part of a double header. If every single stat from that game was considered official then so to should the No-Hitter have been. MLB can’t cherry pick stats when their own rules suggest otherwise
@Rsox
Thanks. I do agree we should maintain consistency.
The rules say a 9 inning or longer complete game. If your team can go 11 innings without giving up a hit that is also a no hitter. If the game does not go 9 innings, its not a no hitter by the rules.
You sure you’re not biased?
In my opinion, what makes a no-hitter a no-hitter isn’t the amount of pitchers used, but rather how hits are allowed.
Mets gonna Met and sign up for all of Verlander’s decline phase…
He sure looked declined this year.
He looked great this year, but at some point soon, Father Time will catch up, and I’m certain it will be in the next couple of years. Mets are gonna pay for that,
It is worth noting that he’s been hit hard in the playoffs. It’s possible that age limits his full-season effectiveness.
Anyone who thinks the Astros aren’t cheating is delusional. Their pitching all year has been suspect, just watch how many times Javier touches his cap. He obviously has a substance and the whole astors pitching has used this all year long. They got caught cheating offensively, so they’re not trying defensively and it’s working. MLB is so ignorant and incompetent, it can’t seem to figure out what rules it wants to impose and enforce when it comes to pitching substance. Open your eyes people, investigate!
Get out your tin foil hats quick!
tanner829 2
Anyone who thinks the Astros aren’t cheating is delusional. Their pitching all year has been suspect
=================================
Suspect? Their pitching has been great all year.
Tanner goes waaaaaaaaah! Someone get him his baba. Arguably the best pitching staff in baseball all season just no hit his team so now he is crying.
That is a good way to put it. Arguably the best. fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&… 1st in WAR, 2nd in ERA, 1st in FIP, 1st in xFIP, 2nd in WHIP. Best in all those categories in the AL.
Funny.
I hear fans of other teams complaing all the time.
I don’t see a single person affiliated with any team or MLB complaining, checking them, or even mentioning it.
It’s 2022. Get over it and live in the present.
Like the Astros or hate them what Javier and the bullpen did was impressive, especially on the biggest stage in the world. It’s taken 66 World Series (384 games) to see another No-Hitter in the World Series, it may not be perfect game but still pretty awsome
Yes. The team needed it and they came through on the big stage. Impressive.
With deGrom opting out and wanting to be the highest paid pitcher, with his injury history the last couple of years, I would let him,Bassitt and Walker and replace them with Verlander, Rodon and Manaea. Def resign Diaz #1, than Ottavino and T. Williams. Sign Trea Turner, let McNeil play LF, if a good deal resign Nimmo and sign a DH (Abreu/JD Mart/ Josh Bell).
Nimmo, Turner, Lindor, Alonso, Abreu, McNeil, Marte, Baty and Alvarez with Escobar, Canha, Guillorme, Nido as backups
Rotation: Scherzer, Verlander, Rodon, Carrasco and Manaea
Manaea can’t pitch outside of Oakland.
I don’t know, but there’s an argument for pitching Verlander #1 in that rotation.
Just out of curiosity, what’s the price tag for all that?
If DeGrom signs with Atlanta, I can see the Mets going after Rondon, Taillon, Manaea, with Scherzer, Peterson and Megil filling out the rest. Personally I hope they don’t pursue Nimmo but rather look and see if a deal is out there for a player(s) whose FA/contract(s) are coming up and those teams cannot afford them. Nimmo isn’t a piece that’s going to put them over. And while Turner would be attractive and a piece I’d pursue heavily, I believe he’s also looking to be closer to Florida as well. I’d put my money on Turner and let him play CF. Sign Abreau and I feel that’s a solid top 5 with a couple of kids on the backend that should eventually produce.
DeGrom is going to the highest bidder. Do you really think that will be the Braves?
In the 2017 ALCS, the Yankees scored 3 runs on 19 hits in four games in Houston. By contrast, they scored 19 runs on 25 hits in three games in NY.
I’m not defending the Astros nor am I pointing a finger at the Yankees, but the numbers may cause a reasonable person to ask questions.
The Astros home/roads splits, while not as bad as the Yankees in the 2017 ALCS, were skewed, as well.
Mets are going to end up replacing Bassit with Syndergaard and trading McCann to St Louis for Matz to replace Walker.
They won’t be better, but it will be nostalgic.